I really appreciate your efforts, and I'm literally checking your new videos daily. Regarding the mark on the 4 ft pass, it's actually the buoy, similar to the pontoon you scanned at the docks. Also, you should have noticed a mark on the 20-foot mark for the bottle, which is positioned 20 feet from the transducer. Think of the fish finder and transducer in this way: any mark represents the combined signal reflected from the same distance to the transducer. The screen simply registers the distances of these signals based on the time it takes for them to be transmitted and received. Imagine a mark on the 20-foot mark on your screen. Picture a 20-foot circle centered at the transducer left element; any object on the perimeter of that circle is displayed on the left side of the screen at that 20-foot . This is why we consistently get the strongest signal at the vertical bottom area. Try drawing circles around the transducer at 1-foot intervals and then mapping to the screen, and you'll understand what I mean.
If anyone knows how they really work its the manufacturer. But they dont tell or give us the detailed view or info. Which they should for what we pay for these units. I seem to remember reading they do use side and down both to create the image. I have also read that the water column is downscan which makes sense because its exactly what you see on downscan. I also believe the side andcdown beams overlap some. We need a clear video from the manufacturer's and its past time they provide it.
They do th-cam.com/video/L3HYTI3wAjo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wO5ClGj8AwPf663m And it is exactly as you wrote. The image is from SI and DI combined. You can see it in that video and also in real life. If you run exactly over something, you will see it on both sides of SI. So Squirrel's video is true only for part of the water column which is not covered by DI beam. Perfect proof is Helix 5-7 it does not have DI beam at all. It makes DI from SI shooting 180 deg and SW interprets returns from both sides by blending them and show it as DI. Not the best approach because there are no new data added by switching to DI, just view is changed.
Interesting topic. I love that you did this experiment. Having watched here are my thoughts: I have my doubts the sidescan and downscan are stitched together to make the image because we all know that live sonar uses multiple beams and the stitching is pretty obvious. I think the 3d image are drawn on a 2d chart and the distance an object is from the transducer is calculated by the computer and it draws it on the graph. This is done without depth as a factor. So the water bottles were shown in the water column, which they were and 4 feet away, which they were. Again without depth as a factor. If depth would have been a factor then it would have shown the bottles a little more than 20 feet away (the hypotenuse of a right triangle).
The area under the boat that isn’t covered by the side imaging beam is very small (approximately 5 degrees to either side of vertical). The conventional down-looking sonar that is built into the side imaging transducer covers the areas below the boat and the Side Imaging Units allow you to view a split screen that will show both 2D coverage and Side Imaging sonar simultaneously.
How about finding a big rock underwater with traditional sonar and waypointing it. Then pregressively drive your boat parallel to it at incremental or decreasing distances from it with side scan until it just shows up right at the interface between the dark area and light area? That will help you ‘calibrate’ your mental image of what is going on I think??!!
Thank you for your video, I also struggle with these things trying to figure what's what. My 2 cents worth for what's it worth - The transducer really only knows distance, it doesn't know anything about angles or depth. Remember how these things work, they send out a ping and wait on it to come back, the time it takes for that return tells it the distance, give or take. There is no way to know depth based on that data. This is why your distance verifications are pretty accurate.
i like the experiment. i thought of doing something similar. it seems like your chart is only showing distance away and is calculated out to make it easier for people to figure out. just simple programing. says object is 100 ft to the left move boat 100ft to the left and and you will be on top of it. . so its some thing is 100 ft to the left. its 100 ft to the left and straight down. maybe try the way point feature then move to weigh point and see where u end up, but lets throw a curve ball into the mix. you ever see the same item in the image on both sides at the edge of the black and orange. when its shows a mirror image on both sides. that means it right under the boat.
Great video. I've been so confused about this topic too. Everything made clear sense except for how you were able to see that bottle 4ft to the left 20ft down. I don't think it's down imaging in conjugation with side imaging because you would see the bottom and structure in that black area. I am baffled as to how that showed up. My theory is that the return you got was the rope going down to the bottles. That's why that mark looked so linear. That should be the only possible explanation right? Please do some more testing on getting returns inside that "dead zone" triangle area. What's funny to me is that all the manufacturers videos are incorrect in saying the black area is the water column directly UNDER your boat. Which is mind blowing. How could they all have that wrong? But my evidence and yours points to the "dead zone" triangle being what is truly shown, and if you do get a return in the black area, it has to be above the 45° line.
How come you, if you run right over it, can see a small sunken boat on the bottom in say 30ft and you can see it on both sides of the sidescan? I can't see that your theory is right either then, although I agree that what they normally teach that sidescan looks like is inaccurate too.
Thank you for doing these experiments. I've been striking out when trying to find shad with the net. I see them on screen in the water column and throw directly behind my kayak and come up empty....... your answers here may be what I was missing. However, I have a question about that bait ball that was shown in your video at the 6:00 minute mark. That bait ball appears on both left and right side, so wouldn't that indicate that it is directly below the transducer? That would indicate that the paper method and folding to get a vertical water column would be correct. But I also see your proof that the bottles suspended 20 ft down but only 4 feet to the left of the transducer. I'm still missing something. KEEP AT IT THOUGH....... great experiments!
I believe the downscan overlays on the sidescan screen. Depending on how deep I’m scanning, shallower scanning over bait and it splits the bait ball it’s been beneath and to each side of my transducer. However, scanning deeper will occasionally show a bait ball on both sides much like the water tower I scanned. If you look close at the screen, it appears on the right side as well. I go with the stronger return to interpret which side it’s on. Thanks for watching!🐿
I love my site scan sonar I bought this technology when it 1st came out it was out for a week at bass pro when I purchased it I have the same model I purchased 20 years ago almost actually 20 years ago a little bit more I think it's the greatest thing since slice bread life scope is great but I really love my side scan
This is good but I still think the transducer is pinging straight down as well. That's why we get mirror images on the left and right. There is some sort of black magic that allows it to go straight down and sideways. 😵💫😵💫
Thanks for the comment Mario! IMO Downscan does the straight down without detecting the bottom. Nothing in nature is perfectly symmetrical. A boulder/ log if split perfectly in the middle wouldn’t be mirror images, right? The sidescan will duplicate and produce mirror images. The water tower I scanned that was 34’ to my left, If you look on the opposite side of the screen, it mirrored that water tower 34’ to my right. I’m not done trying to find out exactly why it does that! Thanks for watching!
I’m not sure why it mirrors images, I’m gonna do a lot more testing. I just haven’t had any time to get on the water of late. I need to, the stripers and hybrids are running right now.
interesting thoughts..... my comment would be that, if you believe the beam from the S.I. transducer comes off at a 45 degree angle, then you shouldnt be able to see the bottles suspended 20` down that were 4` to the side of the boat.... as they would be in a zone the S.I. beam isnt covering. As you were in S.I. mode and not downscan mode...the suspended bottles WERE picked up by the S.I. beam.... ??? Nice vid on a confusing subject.... new subscriber
Thanks for the sub! I think he side imaging and down scan work together on the sidescan view , this picking up the bottles ( my opinion). Still trying to figure that out. Thanks for the comment! 🐿
Pretty sure your wrong. When you run over a rock on side scan you can split it in half. The left part of the bottom will split with the right side exactly. The paper method is correct
Split your screen, side and 2D. 20 feet of water……20 degree cone, 6.6 ft cone. Go over a bush shown on your 2D, with your logic, the bush will not show up on the bottom of side scan.
I see now how to see how far left or right they are but what if you want to know how far down they are as well? Would you have to have down imaging and side scan both activated simultaneously or can side scan tell you how far down they are at the same time?
The image is from SI and DI combined. If you run exactly over something, you will see it on both sides of SI. Bait fish is directly under your boat. th-cam.com/video/Oc9jSTpAyWc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=74G45jD5OuveYi4r&t=376 That is why they are on both sides of SI. So your video is true only for part of the water column which is not covered by DI beam. If you want to measure horizontal distance to them, you need to subtract their depth from that number to get the correct distance.
Thank you for this! You're so right on subtracting the depth of the water? I just asked this question on another video. All the other examples were absolutely baffling and didn't make any sense to me from a mathematical standpoint. I agree with @boydlittou9446 below, the manufacturers really need to step in and explain this.
It's sorry but you're incorrect because your theory wouldn't work when you went by the bottles a second time because you were only 4' away for them And you're a theory they would have been in the notch doubt triangle directly under the boat therefore you would not have even seen them the sides can works it's basically reading a parallelogram across the surface straight down across the bottom it reads more of a rectangle than it does a triangle Because it's also combining down imaging along with the side scan sonar so you basically have 2 transducers and 11 that's down imaging at the same time which covers the cone under the boat and then aside imaging which basically covers at a very steep angle basically a long wide triangle off to the side
Sorry didn't mean to say what you said was incorrect I misunderstood what you said you can disregard my next comment you're correct side imaging and down imaging are being utilized at the same time
I agree he is not correct in the triangle explanation method. I have driven over many sunken sailboats with a dual transducer sidescan setup and the transducers are about 6 ft apart and the bottom picture shows about a loss of six feet of signal width only
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I really appreciate your efforts, and I'm literally checking your new videos daily. Regarding the mark on the 4 ft pass, it's actually the buoy, similar to the pontoon you scanned at the docks. Also, you should have noticed a mark on the 20-foot mark for the bottle, which is positioned 20 feet from the transducer. Think of the fish finder and transducer in this way: any mark represents the combined signal reflected from the same distance to the transducer. The screen simply registers the distances of these signals based on the time it takes for them to be transmitted and received.
Imagine a mark on the 20-foot mark on your screen. Picture a 20-foot circle centered at the transducer left element; any object on the perimeter of that circle is displayed on the left side of the screen at that 20-foot . This is why we consistently get the strongest signal at the vertical bottom area. Try drawing circles around the transducer at 1-foot intervals and then mapping to the screen, and you'll understand what I mean.
If anyone knows how they really work its the manufacturer. But they dont tell or give us the detailed view or info. Which they should for what we pay for these units. I seem to remember reading they do use side and down both to create the image. I have also read that the water column is downscan which makes sense because its exactly what you see on downscan. I also believe the side andcdown beams overlap some. We need a clear video from the manufacturer's and its past time they provide it.
They do th-cam.com/video/L3HYTI3wAjo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wO5ClGj8AwPf663m And it is exactly as you wrote. The image is from SI and DI combined. You can see it in that video and also in real life. If you run exactly over something, you will see it on both sides of SI. So Squirrel's video is true only for part of the water column which is not covered by DI beam. Perfect proof is Helix 5-7 it does not have DI beam at all. It makes DI from SI shooting 180 deg and SW interprets returns from both sides by blending them and show it as DI. Not the best approach because there are no new data added by switching to DI, just view is changed.
Wow is all I got wow.
Thank you so much. This helps me more than any other explanation I've seen.
Great (OPINION) Mr.Squirrel. Helps clear up my thinking. Thank You
Interesting topic. I love that you did this experiment. Having watched here are my thoughts: I have my doubts the sidescan and downscan are stitched together to make the image because we all know that live sonar uses multiple beams and the stitching is pretty obvious. I think the 3d image are drawn on a 2d chart and the distance an object is from the transducer is calculated by the computer and it draws it on the graph. This is done without depth as a factor. So the water bottles were shown in the water column, which they were and 4 feet away, which they were. Again without depth as a factor. If depth would have been a factor then it would have shown the bottles a little more than 20 feet away (the hypotenuse of a right triangle).
The area under the boat that isn’t covered by the side imaging beam is very small (approximately 5 degrees to either side of vertical). The conventional down-looking sonar that is built into the side imaging transducer covers the areas below the boat and the Side Imaging Units allow you to view a split screen that will show both 2D coverage and Side Imaging sonar simultaneously.
I appreciate the explanation brother..gives me a clearer picture of what to look for
This made the 💡 go off for me
How about finding a big rock underwater with traditional sonar and waypointing it. Then pregressively drive your boat parallel to it at incremental or decreasing distances from it with side scan until it just shows up right at the interface between the dark area and light area? That will help you ‘calibrate’ your mental image of what is going on I think??!!
Thank you for your video, I also struggle with these things trying to figure what's what. My 2 cents worth for what's it worth -
The transducer really only knows distance, it doesn't know anything about angles or depth. Remember how these things work, they send out a ping and wait on it to come back, the time it takes for that return tells it the distance, give or take. There is no way to know depth based on that data. This is why your distance verifications are pretty accurate.
i like the experiment. i thought of doing something similar.
it seems like your chart is only showing distance away and is calculated out to make it easier for people to figure out. just simple programing. says object is 100 ft to the left move boat 100ft to the left and and you will be on top of it.
. so its some thing is 100 ft to the left. its 100 ft to the left and straight down.
maybe try the way point feature then move to weigh point and see where u end up,
but lets throw a curve ball into the mix.
you ever see the same item in the image on both sides at the edge of the black and orange. when its shows a mirror image on both sides. that means it right under the boat.
Great experiment on the lake!😁👍👍. Thankyou Squirrel
Best explanation I've seen yet!
Thanks Rae, I appreciate you watching!🐿
This is an awesome video. Thanks for taking the time to make it!
Thank you, Mr. Squirrel!
Great video. I've been so confused about this topic too. Everything made clear sense except for how you were able to see that bottle 4ft to the left 20ft down. I don't think it's down imaging in conjugation with side imaging because you would see the bottom and structure in that black area. I am baffled as to how that showed up. My theory is that the return you got was the rope going down to the bottles. That's why that mark looked so linear. That should be the only possible explanation right? Please do some more testing on getting returns inside that "dead zone" triangle area.
What's funny to me is that all the manufacturers videos are incorrect in saying the black area is the water column directly UNDER your boat. Which is mind blowing. How could they all have that wrong? But my evidence and yours points to the "dead zone" triangle being what is truly shown, and if you do get a return in the black area, it has to be above the 45° line.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comment!🐿
subscribed even though the Clemson hat 😂...... go dawgs
Thanks Jimmy! 🤣😂🐿️
That makes more sense....
nicely done
Slant range, horizontal range, height of the concrete column, depth, speed... so many factors you seem to forget. Slant/Horizontal tells the truth.
More confused now than I was before. 😂
Thank u 🐿️. For a awesome video of side views keep up the great videos. Sampy
Thank you Sampy
@@FishinwithSquirrel you're welcome 👍
I’m guessing you have the “Offset Depth” setting turned on.
Thank you
How come you, if you run right over it, can see a small sunken boat on the bottom in say 30ft and you can see it on both sides of the sidescan? I can't see that your theory is right either then, although I agree that what they normally teach that sidescan looks like is inaccurate too.
I'm here to support the squirrel
Thank you, I appreciate the support! 🐿
Thank you for doing these experiments. I've been striking out when trying to find shad with the net. I see them on screen in the water column and throw directly behind my kayak and come up empty....... your answers here may be what I was missing.
However, I have a question about that bait ball that was shown in your video at the 6:00 minute mark. That bait ball appears on both left and right side, so wouldn't that indicate that it is directly below the transducer? That would indicate that the paper method and folding to get a vertical water column would be correct. But I also see your proof that the bottles suspended 20 ft down but only 4 feet to the left of the transducer. I'm still missing something. KEEP AT IT THOUGH....... great experiments!
I believe the downscan overlays on the sidescan screen. Depending on how deep I’m scanning, shallower scanning over bait and it splits the bait ball it’s been beneath and to each side of my transducer. However, scanning deeper will occasionally show a bait ball on both sides much like the water tower I scanned. If you look close at the screen, it appears on the right side as well. I go with the stronger return to interpret which side it’s on. Thanks for watching!🐿
I love my site scan sonar I bought this technology when it 1st came out it was out for a week at bass pro when I purchased it I have the same model I purchased 20 years ago almost actually 20 years ago a little bit more I think it's the greatest thing since slice bread life scope is great but I really love my side scan
Yes sir
Nice video
This is good but I still think the transducer is pinging straight down as well. That's why we get mirror images on the left and right. There is some sort of black magic that allows it to go straight down and sideways. 😵💫😵💫
Thanks for the comment Mario! IMO Downscan does the straight down without detecting the bottom. Nothing in nature is perfectly symmetrical. A boulder/ log if split perfectly in the middle wouldn’t be mirror images, right? The sidescan will duplicate and produce mirror images. The water tower I scanned that was 34’ to my left, If you look on the opposite side of the screen, it mirrored that water tower 34’ to my right. I’m not done trying to find out exactly why it does that! Thanks for watching!
I’m not sure why it mirrors images, I’m gonna do a lot more testing. I just haven’t had any time to get on the water of late. I need to, the stripers and hybrids are running right now.
interesting thoughts..... my comment would be that, if you believe the beam from the S.I. transducer comes off at a 45 degree angle, then you shouldnt be able to see the bottles suspended 20` down that were 4` to the side of the boat.... as they would be in a zone the S.I. beam isnt covering. As you were in S.I. mode and not downscan mode...the suspended bottles WERE picked up by the S.I. beam.... ??? Nice vid on a confusing subject.... new subscriber
Thanks for the sub! I think he side imaging and down scan work together on the sidescan view , this picking up the bottles ( my opinion). Still trying to figure that out. Thanks for the comment! 🐿
Pretty sure your wrong. When you run over a rock on side scan you can split it in half. The left part of the bottom will split with the right side exactly. The paper method is correct
Nice
Thanks Gene!
Split your screen, side and 2D. 20 feet of water……20 degree cone, 6.6 ft cone. Go over a bush shown on your 2D, with your logic, the bush will not show up on the bottom of side scan.
Go to 50 ft. water and scan 40 feet left and right…….explain?
I see now how to see how far left or right they are but what if you want to know how far down they are as well? Would you have to have down imaging and side scan both activated simultaneously or can side scan tell you how far down they are at the same time?
You need 2D or Down imaging to tell how deep fish are in the water column. I keep both 2D and down visible with side scan running.
The image is from SI and DI combined. If you run exactly over something, you will see it on both sides of SI. Bait fish is directly under your boat. th-cam.com/video/Oc9jSTpAyWc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=74G45jD5OuveYi4r&t=376 That is why they are on both sides of SI. So your video is true only for part of the water column which is not covered by DI beam. If you want to measure horizontal distance to them, you need to subtract their depth from that number to get the correct distance.
Thank you for this! You're so right on subtracting the depth of the water? I just asked this question on another video. All the other examples were absolutely baffling and didn't make any sense to me from a mathematical standpoint. I agree with @boydlittou9446 below, the manufacturers really need to step in and explain this.
It's sorry but you're incorrect because your theory wouldn't work when you went by the bottles a second time because you were only 4' away for them And you're a theory they would have been in the notch doubt triangle directly under the boat therefore you would not have even seen them the sides can works it's basically reading a parallelogram across the surface straight down across the bottom it reads more of a rectangle than it does a triangle Because it's also combining down imaging along with the side scan sonar so you basically have 2 transducers and 11 that's down imaging at the same time which covers the cone under the boat and then aside imaging which basically covers at a very steep angle basically a long wide triangle off to the side
Sorry didn't mean to say what you said was incorrect I misunderstood what you said you can disregard my next comment you're correct side imaging and down imaging are being utilized at the same time
That’s ok Chris, I’m just sharing what I currently believe to be correct. I’m far from perfect. Thank you for commenting and watching my videos! 🐿
I think you are mistaken.
Are you able to explain why?
I agree he is not correct in the triangle explanation method. I have driven over many sunken sailboats with a dual transducer sidescan setup and the transducers are about 6 ft apart and the bottom picture shows about a loss of six feet of signal width only