One of the things I always look for is if it has a shattered van stamp on it. If it does, I know it's a far better disc than anything else. Easy fix! You def missed that
Apollo Disc Golf gets it👍. I hope a lot of people get to see this video👍 it really helps when deciding if a disc you've never thrown before might be right for you *better than flight numbers*👍. Once you go full-blown disc golf nerd like I did a long time ago, you might even start disc golf shopping with a set of plastic pocket calipers and a straight edge😆😂.
@@ApolloDiscGolf They help actually and are easy to keep in your bag. I find often that advertised measurements of wing characteristics are not accurate. 2.2cm rims will be advertised as 2.3cm and vice versa.
In reference to the wing height, I believe what you're referring to is the "parting line". And "generally" the lower the parting line, the more understable; higher the parting line, the more overstable.
Yeah the parting line height is another way to refer to it! But that is more relevant for comparing the same molds. Because technically the parting line height isn't what is changing the flight... It's how high the wing is... But since the parting line is generally in the same spot on the wing for discs of the same mold, that makes it easier to compare them for stability!
A concave wing directs the airflow downward as a disc flies through the air, which in turn pushes up on the front edge of the disc. Thanks to gyroscopic stability, this causes the 90 degree clockwise edge of the wing to rise, causing overstability. A convex wing just slices through the air and doesn't redirect the airflow nearly as much, so the only force acting on the disc is lift from the airflow over the top, causing understability. High parting line + concave wing = Tilt. Low parting line + convex wing = Heat.
One thing you can do to your tent is get some black electrical tape (or maybe another type is better) and letter up the front of the tent so people can spot it easier. Great video!
This was great! I think the wing bead or lip primarily serves to keep the disc closer to it's intended stability for longer into the lifespan of the disc, just like on putters and mids. It has the effect of giving it more low speed stability than a wing without it that is otherwise identical, but I think that's maybe more incidental than intentional, but wdik really. It's also really interesting how most discs have an upper stage to the wing that then transitions to a different, usually steeper, angle towards the bottom of the wing, and that either or both of these sections can be convex or concave,, and the transition to the second angle can be lower or higher on the wing. And the Grace has what I would call a ledge before the first angle. So many variables!
Yeah that's a good point! I forgot about that. I think that was originally why they made the bead to keep the flight characteristics longer. Especially before they had premium plastics.. which is probably why all of the classic stable drivers from Innova have it... Now that they have premium plastics though that hold their stability for a long time, I wouldn't be surprised if the more modern molds have it more for the drag at the end of the flight than for durability.
The Eagle, Teebird, Leopard did exactly what you're talking about, but over 20 years ago. And then there were the X and L variations of each of those discs. Discraft also had subtle variations between runs and plastic and molds in the same way. The Votum and the Evader are closer to an Eagle in there numbers and intended flight.
@@ApolloDiscGolf Honestly I would just get a mirror for those shots moving forward. Like I was shocked at how much it helped show the difference in wing shape. I guess you notice the differences more when the reflections create a more closed shape as opposed to just putting two rims next to each other. Gives more context
I was looking at an old abandoned mini golf / driving range to convert to a disc golf store, par 2 trick shot mini golf style course, and most key, a driving range for field testing before your buy. It didn't happen so the missing details don't matter, but wouldn't it be nice to test throw a mold before you buy?
Yeah. That would be difficult though because once it's thrown it loses value... And discs vary from run to run so even if you have a test range with all the discs to sample. Those might be different than what's on the shelf and over time they will become less stable than their new counterparts on the shelf!
@@ApolloDiscGolf you're not wrong, but I find how the disc comes out of my hand to be almost more important than it's particular flight, I can tweak the angles to change the flight, I can't tweak how the disc comes out as much. Just a dream of night time mini disc golf, pro shop, and brewery here in KC - quit squashing my dreams 😉
The rigidity of the plastic also effects the flight. Also the disc can be slightly warped, or even just in the one spot that you nailed a tree or fence. Sit it on a flat surface and you should be able to tell whether it's sitting flat or not. It's also the best way to compare discs to each other to find one like you already have.
I thought i read somewhere that those wing beads make noise angle geometry more forgiving. No idea if it's true but as an Innova hater, i really like teebirds.
It makes so much sense in terms of mold minimalism to have discs with the same profile but different wing heigth like the soda and the cookie. Are there any other "pairs" of discs like this?
I know the 3 series from Innova use the same top. Like the 3 series drivers have the same top and the 3 series mids have the same top... But the bottom has more to do with feel imo...
Good video. I'm curious about how beating a disc in causes the flight to change, and if there's a way to tell if one disc will beat in better than another of the same mold but maybe different run.
Yeah, beating up a disc will make that disc more understable! Mainly because it causes the wing to be knocked down lower... But I am sure there are other things that make it more flippy as well... And in terms of different runs and everything beating up differently... They should all beat up the same to become more understable... The only thing that makes the difference is how durable the plastic is!
Nice job explaining these minor deviations. Maybe the next video like this can be about plastics and how to figure out which ones are more reliable? I went to Play It Again for the first time last month. I was torn between a used Nuke in X plastic vs. a used Boss in star plastic. So glad I went with the Boss because I got my second ace with it. But I’m wondering just how understable that Nuke would have been… or maybe not?
Yeah, that could be good! And I bet the Nuke was pretty flippy... But that's probably more because the plastic isn't as durable so it might have been more beat up than the star one!
@@ApolloDiscGolf Yeah that's ultimately why I binned the Nuke. Same level of wear probably, but X plastic is notorious for having no integrity... I almost picked it up just to have a crazy hyzer flip high speed bomber
The Felon has always been a Firebird one and that lip has always been there. The Last 64 Explorer is a Teebird clone, along with the Discmania Instinct.
Does having a domey or "puddletopped" disc make a difference? It feels like flat discs are way more stable than domey discs. But this is just from my experience.
It depends on the disc, one thing it for sure changes is the glide. But in terms of stability, it depends more on what that does to the outer rim. Like some drivers like the Wraith or Destroyer, the domey ones are generally the beefcakes, and the flat ones are generally pretty flippy, but for Zones, the puddle topped ones are the beefy ones. Or with Firebirds, Flatter ones are generally the beefy ones. So the more consistent way to tell is the wing, because it depends on the mold when it comes to the domey vs flat
Yes! The Parting line height is the best way to tell stability between different runs of the same mold! And that is more accurate when you are talking about the same mold in the same plastic, one with the higher wing will be the more stable one 99.9% of the time!
Yeah, the wing height it pretty low on the Passion. So that makes it more understable. But the wing bead doesn't necessarily make it more overstable, it creates more drag to slow the disc down more at the end to get to it's fade sooner in the flight. So compared to other discs of similar stability, the Passion should generally flatten out or fade back a little more at the end then others. So have a little more integrity at the end of the flight than others. Which would make it a nice finesse driver that is still good for throwers with more power like Paige!
Honestly... I don't know that there is! That is such a unique mold, I don't know why others haven't really made it again... Maybe the Whippet? They just added those to the factory store again. But that may be more overstable than a Banshee?
@@ApolloDiscGolf I bag a volts for the time being. It might be the answer it just requires a little more oomph. The Banshee did that while requiring less. Eagles are sometimes OS, but idk… Thanks
Yeah, Explorer's are weird because you can find ones that are really overstable and more overstable than Evaders... And then you can find them that are definitely a little understable out of the box
@@ApolloDiscGolf From my experience, they're one of the discs most affected by the X plastic stability changes, too. My current Explorer is straight with fade, but the Opto-X one I got a while back is basically a Tilt.
Yeah! They do have one on the Instinct! But its a very round one, similar to the Raptor or Captain's Raptor. The new FD1 has one as well! But that one is more like the one on the Teebird!
One of the things I always look for is if it has a shattered van stamp on it. If it does, I know it's a far better disc than anything else. Easy fix! You def missed that
Oh for sure! Definitely one of the top things I forgot to mention! Thanks for the correction!
The most clever self-plug ever
Apollo Disc Golf gets it👍.
I hope a lot of people get to see this video👍 it really helps when deciding if a disc you've never thrown before might be right for you *better than flight numbers*👍.
Once you go full-blown disc golf nerd like I did a long time ago, you might even start disc golf shopping with a set of plastic pocket calipers and a straight edge😆😂.
Lol, I never got to the point of carrying a caliper and flat edge... 😂
@@ApolloDiscGolf👍 😂
@@ApolloDiscGolf They help actually and are easy to keep in your bag. I find often that advertised measurements of wing characteristics are not accurate. 2.2cm rims will be advertised as 2.3cm and vice versa.
In reference to the wing height, I believe what you're referring to is the "parting line". And "generally" the lower the parting line, the more understable; higher the parting line, the more overstable.
Yeah the parting line height is another way to refer to it! But that is more relevant for comparing the same molds. Because technically the parting line height isn't what is changing the flight... It's how high the wing is... But since the parting line is generally in the same spot on the wing for discs of the same mold, that makes it easier to compare them for stability!
A concave wing directs the airflow downward as a disc flies through the air, which in turn pushes up on the front edge of the disc. Thanks to gyroscopic stability, this causes the 90 degree clockwise edge of the wing to rise, causing overstability. A convex wing just slices through the air and doesn't redirect the airflow nearly as much, so the only force acting on the disc is lift from the airflow over the top, causing understability. High parting line + concave wing = Tilt. Low parting line + convex wing = Heat.
Best explanation I've seen by far. Great job. Never thought to look at the wing's outer edge/bead.
Thank you!
Jake is a great guy, remembers everyone's name. Love that his shop is so close to work and 2 courses.
Yeah, Jake is awesome!
I’ve looked for his place before, I saw it on udisc and was never able to find it where UDisc told me it was, is it hiding in corner around there?
One thing you can do to your tent is get some black electrical tape (or maybe another type is better) and letter up the front of the tent so people can spot it easier. Great video!
You're pretty spot on with the Rift. It's -1.5/1. Thrown flat it will turn a little bit then fly straight. Baby hyzer and it flies straight for days.
It definitely feels nice! And really nice to pair with the Quake for a similar feel!
@@ApolloDiscGolf I guess I need to try a Quake!
This was great! I think the wing bead or lip primarily serves to keep the disc closer to it's intended stability for longer into the lifespan of the disc, just like on putters and mids. It has the effect of giving it more low speed stability than a wing without it that is otherwise identical, but I think that's maybe more incidental than intentional, but wdik really.
It's also really interesting how most discs have an upper stage to the wing that then transitions to a different, usually steeper, angle towards the bottom of the wing, and that either or both of these sections can be convex or concave,, and the transition to the second angle can be lower or higher on the wing. And the Grace has what I would call a ledge before the first angle. So many variables!
Yeah that's a good point! I forgot about that. I think that was originally why they made the bead to keep the flight characteristics longer. Especially before they had premium plastics.. which is probably why all of the classic stable drivers from Innova have it... Now that they have premium plastics though that hold their stability for a long time, I wouldn't be surprised if the more modern molds have it more for the drag at the end of the flight than for durability.
The Eagle, Teebird, Leopard did exactly what you're talking about, but over 20 years ago. And then there were the X and L variations of each of those discs. Discraft also had subtle variations between runs and plastic and molds in the same way. The Votum and the Evader are closer to an Eagle in there numbers and intended flight.
This is such good content! One of the best informative vids I've seen in a while!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
i seriously love this video. thanks.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
More than happy to let you use the space! Keep up the stellar content!
💪💪
Really like how the reflection in the glass counter makes the comparisons between two discs even more apparent and easy to see
I didn't even notice that! That was just the only flat surface that had the space to compare the discs... But that is a nice benefit! 😂
@@ApolloDiscGolf Honestly I would just get a mirror for those shots moving forward. Like I was shocked at how much it helped show the difference in wing shape. I guess you notice the differences more when the reflections create a more closed shape as opposed to just putting two rims next to each other. Gives more context
Yeah, I may have to look into that for the future!
I was looking at an old abandoned mini golf / driving range to convert to a disc golf store, par 2 trick shot mini golf style course, and most key, a driving range for field testing before your buy. It didn't happen so the missing details don't matter, but wouldn't it be nice to test throw a mold before you buy?
Yeah. That would be difficult though because once it's thrown it loses value... And discs vary from run to run so even if you have a test range with all the discs to sample. Those might be different than what's on the shelf and over time they will become less stable than their new counterparts on the shelf!
@@ApolloDiscGolf you're not wrong, but I find how the disc comes out of my hand to be almost more important than it's particular flight, I can tweak the angles to change the flight, I can't tweak how the disc comes out as much.
Just a dream of night time mini disc golf, pro shop, and brewery here in KC - quit squashing my dreams 😉
@@CasualRelief lol, sorry 😂😂
Generally, very informative.
Thank you!
Yep i have 2 heats and if they werent labeled as a heat, everyone would think they are 2 different discs. The wing height and plh arent even close
The rigidity of the plastic also effects the flight. Also the disc can be slightly warped, or even just in the one spot that you nailed a tree or fence. Sit it on a flat surface and you should be able to tell whether it's sitting flat or not. It's also the best way to compare discs to each other to find one like you already have.
General Apollo has a nice ring to it. 🤔
This was great brotha.. ty ty
Thanks, man! I appreciate it! 🙌🏼
Really great video!! Thanks!
I thought i read somewhere that those wing beads make noise angle geometry more forgiving. No idea if it's true but as an Innova hater, i really like teebirds.
Interesting. I haven't heard of that before!
It makes so much sense in terms of mold minimalism to have discs with the same profile but different wing heigth like the soda and the cookie. Are there any other "pairs" of discs like this?
Just the Quake and Rift from what I noticed! And I never really noticed that before until I was filming this video and noticed those two pairs.
I know the 3 series from Innova use the same top. Like the 3 series drivers have the same top and the 3 series mids have the same top... But the bottom has more to do with feel imo...
Good video. I'm curious about how beating a disc in causes the flight to change, and if there's a way to tell if one disc will beat in better than another of the same mold but maybe different run.
Yeah, beating up a disc will make that disc more understable! Mainly because it causes the wing to be knocked down lower... But I am sure there are other things that make it more flippy as well... And in terms of different runs and everything beating up differently... They should all beat up the same to become more understable... The only thing that makes the difference is how durable the plastic is!
Nice job explaining these minor deviations. Maybe the next video like this can be about plastics and how to figure out which ones are more reliable? I went to Play It Again for the first time last month. I was torn between a used Nuke in X plastic vs. a used Boss in star plastic.
So glad I went with the Boss because I got my second ace with it. But I’m wondering just how understable that Nuke would have been… or maybe not?
Yeah, that could be good! And I bet the Nuke was pretty flippy... But that's probably more because the plastic isn't as durable so it might have been more beat up than the star one!
@@ApolloDiscGolf Yeah that's ultimately why I binned the Nuke. Same level of wear probably, but X plastic is notorious for having no integrity... I almost picked it up just to have a crazy hyzer flip high speed bomber
Yeah… I can’t throw Nukes… the rim is insanely massive! It makes my tiny hands cry every time I try to think about throwing it 😂
The Felon has always been a Firebird one and that lip has always been there. The Last 64 Explorer is a Teebird clone, along with the Discmania Instinct.
Genius
Does having a domey or "puddletopped" disc make a difference? It feels like flat discs are way more stable than domey discs. But this is just from my experience.
It depends on the disc, one thing it for sure changes is the glide. But in terms of stability, it depends more on what that does to the outer rim. Like some drivers like the Wraith or Destroyer, the domey ones are generally the beefcakes, and the flat ones are generally pretty flippy, but for Zones, the puddle topped ones are the beefy ones. Or with Firebirds, Flatter ones are generally the beefy ones. So the more consistent way to tell is the wing, because it depends on the mold when it comes to the domey vs flat
@@ApolloDiscGolf ok. Tyvm for getting back to me. 😁🥏🥏🥏⛳
Can I use this to find overstable runs of day nuke for example?
Yes! The Parting line height is the best way to tell stability between different runs of the same mold! And that is more accurate when you are talking about the same mold in the same plastic, one with the higher wing will be the more stable one 99.9% of the time!
The passion has a huge wing bead but isn't overstable
I wonder in the case of the Passion whether the wing bead has the effect of lowering the parting line, and thus making it more understable.
The height and underwing must be more impactful for the Passion
Yeah, the wing height it pretty low on the Passion. So that makes it more understable. But the wing bead doesn't necessarily make it more overstable, it creates more drag to slow the disc down more at the end to get to it's fade sooner in the flight.
So compared to other discs of similar stability, the Passion should generally flatten out or fade back a little more at the end then others. So have a little more integrity at the end of the flight than others. Which would make it a nice finesse driver that is still good for throwers with more power like Paige!
Nice job explaining the mold variations that effect flight characteristics. This will definitely help when browsing for a new disc to try😀.
Great vid!🎉
Thank you!
My first run raptor has the same wing feel as the newer ones I have
Does it have that little lip/bead at the end of the wing like the newer ones?
@@ApolloDiscGolf yes
What’s a good Banshee replacement?
Honestly... I don't know that there is! That is such a unique mold, I don't know why others haven't really made it again... Maybe the Whippet? They just added those to the factory store again. But that may be more overstable than a Banshee?
Or maybe a L64 Trident? Those may be OOP though as well.
@@ApolloDiscGolf I bag a volts for the time being. It might be the answer it just requires a little more oomph. The Banshee did that while requiring less.
Eagles are sometimes OS, but idk…
Thanks
One interesting twist to this is that the Explorer has a wing bead, but is less overstable than the otherwise similar Evader.
Yeah, Explorer's are weird because you can find ones that are really overstable and more overstable than Evaders... And then you can find them that are definitely a little understable out of the box
@@ApolloDiscGolf From my experience, they're one of the discs most affected by the X plastic stability changes, too. My current Explorer is straight with fade, but the Opto-X one I got a while back is basically a Tilt.
@@mpbx3003 Their Lucid-x/Opto-X plastic is wild... So much more overstable with everything, it's crazy!
@@ApolloDiscGolf I've had a couple that were only a bit more, but some are almost useless! Gold/Fuzion/Tournament-X is awesome, though.
@@ApolloDiscGolf If you find a Gold X Explorer check it out, it has such a beautiful balance between extra glide and yet a really reliable finish
Is this your warehouse of discs? Pretty nice selection of it is. Oh nvm. Friends place. Got it.
Yeah, it's a friends store in KC! my selection is smaller but growing!
Nice to see the word "chamfer" here.
The instinct has got the ”wing bead” if i remember correctly
Yeah! They do have one on the Instinct! But its a very round one, similar to the Raptor or Captain's Raptor. The new FD1 has one as well! But that one is more like the one on the Teebird!
@@ApolloDiscGolf yeah, gotta try the fd1 aswell!
Should titled the video "GENERAL guidelines for how a disc flies without throwing it"
Oooo, that is a good one! I also noticed I forgot to change the number for the last "general" used... So I counted 9 twice 😂
The continuous swinging of the camera and unnecessary movement doesn't prevent me from getting bored, but it makes me dizzy and anxious...
Whaaat? Ofc you need a Tilt. Dont talk rubbish. Now my wing is sad too
I thought I knew that shop... I love Albatross! EMAW my friend! 🟣⚪