Marth's Huge Grab (and why it's completely fine)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2023
- (in a way)
SaveAsUntitled's turnip analysis:
• Analyzing Armada’s 304...
Subscribe for more!
• Consider becoming a PATRON if you really like my content
/ asumsaus
• Twitter
/ asumsaus
All music in this one is original. - เกม
Didn't expect the Heeew cameo in 2023 but pretty hyped to be in an AsumSaus vid. Great vid as usual.
he returns (kinda)
wait it's the dude from the video lmao
i miss you dad
oh damn you're still around
Had a feeling you'd be here. Y'all should try to do a collab or something down in the future! I bet a lot of people would wanna see that!
Marth has simply just learned the tool of leaning forward and it made the entire character broken.
Edit: I have overtaken @Heeew
Now bow before me.
it’s not just his grab, he leans forward in his dash too! leaning forward is truly the best technique
@@sleepytf2Who do you main
well yeah, why do you think leaning forward in your chair is shifting to Gamer Mode™️
@@bonkers5451 master hand
@@Gotmilk0112 not you
2:57 Irrefutable proof that they weren't taking any chances with making Kirby really bad in this game.
They had to make sure he was perfectly cuddle-able at all costs
@@Antifrost Jigglypuff is just a kirby covered in oil.
@@AttacMagealso with hair and more anime eyes
@@tezcanaslan2877that’s what the oil does
Why Sakurai had hate-love relationship with his son, Kirby?
Marths actual grab range and why it looks weird reminds me of how so many people in any fighting game forget that you extend your hurtbox when you throw a move out, just in general
This is also why moves that give invincibility to some hitboxes are also invaluable. One of the first things I learned when picking up fighting games was even bad Dragon Punches are still good moves.
Starship!!!
@@yserareborn well even if the DP doesnt have good invuln it could still be a decent combo ender, but i see whachu mean
In SF n tekken, attacks that jump lows are pretty good
No one forgot this lol
@@Drewsel then i guess you haventbeen in social media
Remember when people complained about bowser pivot grab? It wasnt even that crazy hitbox wise, its just really good in footsies
I remember when I used to edit Smash montages for 4 and Ultimate I delighted in taking what seemed like a completely jank interaction and then playing it back frame by frame and learning that the percieved "jank" is frequently just a character getting hit in a specific limb. Ultimate in particular has this one pose that I think almost the entire cast goes into when they enter hitstun that makes things a little bit visually deceptive.
That sounds hilarious, I just found your smash ultimate comps playlist through this comment and I can’t wait to find some of these moments you’re talking about
My favorate is the pose characters take when spike really hard in Ultimate. Back facing up, all limbs extended downward. If you for instance hit Captain Falcon with a strong spike in his extended arm during his Up-B, it looks absolutely absurd. It's great.
Legends commenting on legends
Far too many times I see people label the game as "janky" or "badly designed", when it's just mere hurtbox shifting, which I can't believe some players still don't think of
It’s the fruit maaaaan!!!
So it seems like rather than having a really *long* grab, Marth's grab hitbox is simply really "optimally placed" to pick up a bunch of weird protrusions and shit. Since it's a couple big circles (compared to some of the shitty grabs with much smaller circles), it just has a bunch more area under his arm (rather than in front) that are at a height where a bunch of shit happens, that make it really good at getting just the edge of the other character.
That and also melee is constructed so that if you grab someone on the exact same frame you get hit, you just tank the hit and grab anyway, so when marth’s grab connects someone’s protruding limb during their attack, if they connect on the frame the opponent would’ve hit him, Marth wins.
@@tardissins7512 this is a big factor, I'm glad someone else mentioned it. The huge range from Marth's center gives him a lot more leniency when grabbing an approach compared to Pikachu trying to do the exact same thing. There isn't even a high chance of his hand getting clipped because it isn't fully extended until the grab is already out
he also LEANS really far from his standing position. his grab isnt fully deceptive or just good at hitting jank hurtboxes. it's still really far-reaching, because he puts his back into it.
Funny how the guy from a Tactical RPG series has one of the most strategically placed hitboxes in the game.
@@tardissins7512I love seeing Melee and thinking we are blessed that we can hit people out of a grab.
Bowsers grab hitbox size is actually larger than Marths, with Bowsers being ~19.2, and Marth's is ~18.8, but Bowser's grabbox is so jammed up in his body, it has less effective reach than Marth's
Plus Boozer is already quite wide, so relatively speaking he feels like he has a stubby grab
So if you were to move Bowser's grab hitbox towards his hands and not his elbows he'd actually have a decent grab range?
@@azurewarrior2000 If he extended (leaned forward) like marth's would be absolutely broken yes
whenever someone shows me a ridiculous looking hit/grab/etc, my standard answer is "what does the frame before look like" because of hurtbox extensions like this
It's not even about the frame though, it's about everything you can't see
@@Tubeytime most games i play have hitbox visualisers built into the base game, so i can usually see it just fine
@@Tubeytimewell, you can infer what the hit and hurt boxes would have been like on the frame the attack landed from looking at the previous frame so it doesn't really matter...
@@Tubeytimeto be fair it is a good dev's job to try and minimize things like this from happening
Good "Visual Clarity" can effectively teach the inner workings of a game to players without seeing debug information or exact hit/hurt boxes
. etc bt marth is almst prfct. jst fun to play^
So Marths size doesn’t matter, it’s just about how he uses his size
...so no more Marth master the force joke
There's a lot a good Marth player can do with just the tip.
There’s a joke here that I’m not going to make, but I will allude to it.
I see what you did there
Marths have modestly sized pp 😔
2:48 Man, the devs really said "NO HOLDING HANDS WITH PICHU ALLOWED!!!"
they fucking banned holding hands
Discriminatory behavior. I demand compensation and an apology for my son.
So the "issue" isn't Marth himself, it's an issue of visuals too fast for the human eye to easily pick up on, and sometimes too fast for VODs to display them correctly
Seeing people accuse you of faking the visual for his grab range, even the one guy saying he was 'disappointed', makes me irrationally angry. Like, imagine calling someone out for faking information when they're displaying the 100% factual information. And to do it in such a matter of fact way, while being completely and totally wrong.
The real reason Nyna gave the Fire Emblem to Marth instead of Hardin, was because she was afraid Marth would steal it from her with his excellent grab range if she didn't comply.
Marth’s grab is inescapable, like Natasha the underworld doctor asking if you’re feeling sick.
WHY DO I KEEP GETTING THAT AD CAN SOMEONE SHUT HER UP PLEASE!!!!
(Seriously I’m going insane)
@@mrepicdood9953 knife to meet you
I expected a tf2 reference but that works too
Are you feeling sick? 😄
Lmao
5:14 AsumSaus about to educate the entire Smash community about why those flashy red screens of death in Smash Ultimate where you aren't even touching the opponent are actually fine and not jank
Opponent extended their arm, you hit their arm, they recoil in pain and pull back their arm, red screen happens and makes it seem you hit nothing
ikr, ultimate players are retarded if they dont know what hitstun looks like. I mean they know what SDI is and its the same principal here.
Thought everyone learned this when plant came out and people were hitting him during his down b,
@@FrankEShaw05 If there's anything the smash community is great at, it's not understanding a single thing about the game they play
Freezing on the pose the player makes when they get hit like they do with clanks would be awesome, but that would remove the visual indication of who got hit in any interaction and so I get why they didn’t do it.
@@ReavenM1911A1This
4:27 name a more iconic duo than random youtube comments and making up random shit about a melee that they don't understand
I also love the handwave of "arduino", as if he made himself a button to send the Konami code to the presumably hacked game to trigger these specific "hacks"
@@GKplus8
the idea that you could manipulate rng with a fucking Arduino in your controller is hilarious to me
this channel is seriously one of the best on the entire website, rarely do i insta-watch every single upload from a creator, but here I do
Yeah, I think his editing is probably the best of any channel on here that I watch. I love your videos too!
AH youtuber crossover
Just reported your channel and all your videos, hope they get taken down! Good comment btw very true
@@andrewhiser9965I wouldn't go that far
@@depyjellyhuh? 💀 is this a joke? why?
asumsaus is hands down, the most detailed melee creator
Hax is pretty detailed too
Don’t forget TurndownforWalt
*seeing bowser giving everything he has to grab pichu fills you with determination*
This mechanic of grabing or hitting a characters extended hurtbox is in every fighting game and causes some hilariously weird looking things to happen. It is part of what makes footsies, neutral, and whiff punishing work the way they do and one of the reasons disjoints are valued in a lot of games.
I believe there's some fighting games where the grab hitbox has to hit the opponent's collision box instead of their hurtbox for it to count as a hit
Marth's long grab range is just a reference to how long marth has to travel on every map in his games
7:42 Since nobody complimented this, I will. That moonwalk was clean.
Ong
When AsumSaus uploads, it has to be a good day today.
Someone's dog died today
@@exodiusow7649sad day for the dog they couldnt watch the new asumsaus 😢
@@exodiusow7649 what the dog do
Captain Falcon can also grab opponents who are just behind him, I assume because one of his grab hitboxes is partially inside his body and character models can overlap a bit sometimes. Either way, one of my favorite things to do (by accident) in this game.
every chars dash grab has a hitbox behind them and since falcon is so fast I feel like he gets away with it way more than other chars
@@SirOreganoit's many, but not every character.
Icies, dk, bowser, mewtwo, gnw, peach, pika, pichu, the links, yoshi and samus all don't have a proper "behind" grabbox on their dashgrab, though many have grabbboxes in the center of their body.
6:59 "I'm not going to say it's not bullshit though."
_titles the video "and why it's completely fine"_
I love how “his grab isn’t broken, everyone else’s just sucks” sounds like a cop-out but is actually what is happening here. Great game HAL 👍
on twitter you said that this video would “change the way you see melee forever”
well i cant say he was incorrect
Whenever a top player is accused of unreasonable luck, the first thing to take into account is that they have done the thing more than almost anyone else. If you pulled thousands of turnips you'd get three in an important match sometimes too.
Randomness is...random. That one-in-a-million chance happens sometimes, sometimes even when it counts (and sometimes when it doesn't, too).
Plus there's confirmation bias in it, too, where people remember all the clutch moments where luck saved someone but conveniently forget all the moments where that didn't happen even when it would have been very beneficial.
@@ZeroKitsune Also, what people think "random" is isn't really random. People generally imagine something like drawing from a deck of cards, hitting every possibility before reshuffling and starting over. So when real randomness gives 3 aces of spades within the span of 10 draws, people tend to think something is wrong when there isn't.
@@ZeroKitsune also statistically improbable things are expected to happen occasionally given enough chances. If armada went his entire career without getting insane stitch rng in a single game it would be more statistically remarkable. Or if everyone on earth flipped a coin 30 times it would be weird if nobody flipped heads 30 times.
This is why the Dream "Luck" investigation was so important, because you have to account for the luck over a long period to actually determine if it was sufficiently improbable
@@misirtere9836The only thing the Dream scandal taught us was that most people on the internet don't understand statistics at all. The numbers involved were so insane that anyone who knew anything about the subject immediately realised he was completely full of shit
Something that might've also been worth mentioning about why Marth's grab range *_looks_* so fucked is that the distance between the leading edge of his *_neutral hurtbox_* , and the leading edge of his grab range, *_is_* enormous due to the lean. Even if it's perfectly fine relative to the wireframe, the visual deception is a pretty big factor
No matter the subgenre, no matter the game, janky hitbox interactions are a universal fighting game experience
That's true, but I don't know how that's relevant to this video when there are no fighting games in it. All I see is a party game
@@philipkelly7369very clever
@@philipkelly7369smash is a fighting game but it's not part of the fgc
@@philipkelly7369 Cry harder.
@@philipkelly7369L
I just wanna say, your editing for this video is simply amazing, especially that "lost frame" recreation. Amazing work, like always on this channel!
I think the main reason Marth's grab specifically looks so bullshit is his arm only being extended on a single frame. His arm spends several times more time being much closer to his body, so it looks like that's where the hitbox should be. A single animator's minor questionable decision has led to decades of memes.
Pokes are not really about the size of the hitbox if you have extendable limbs and the extension is like in 1 frame.
I think part of it has to do with his starting posture, as his grabbing arm is usually a fair distance away from where it will end up, helping with the illusion of range.
That and he does really lean into his grab
I would think it also has something to do with Marth's model resting on its back leg. He's constantly leaning backwards and so the grab looks even longer
I really enjoyed the Falco Moonwalk at the end. It really takes a lot of skill to perform high-level maneuvers like that, great job!
this is quite literally the same scenario with Sonic, especially in Ultimate. He leans forwards a lot. His arm also stretches a bit, but he takes a big step forward and can hit almost anyone from an impressive distance
the side effect of this is marth sometimes reaching past characters and whiffing his grab
it's really obvious if you have a couple marths stand right next to each other and both grab at the same time: they both miss completely
Asum got that marth grab range yanking me awake from my sub box
Something that should have been mentioned overtly is the height of Marth's grab. Being at the exact height that it is enables it to clip goofy shit that grabs from shorter characters (and even taller characters like Falcon) can't. It really is just the perfect height to be bullshit and consistent without actually being that large.
Very well explained, I'm sure stuff like this happens in other Smash games too but I guess Marth's animation here made it seem more extreme than it actually was.
Bowser's pivot grab in Smash 4 was way, WAY more disjointed than this one iirc
To be honest, the best part of Asum's video is him speaking the supporters name flawlessly at the end
I feel like the Arduino comment is just prime meme material
Marth can Dash Grab from behind while Yoshi cant Dash Grab from in front, truly a Melee moment
Marth, leaning forward a little: *best grab in the game*
Bowser, lunging towards you: *whiffs entirely*
I can NOT believe that that link grab at the end is real. you can't just say it's real and leave it at that.
You saw it for yourself, didn't you?
his hook shot really does shoot out that far if you look at it frame by frame
@@GlitchanBlack I don't think it's legit. maybe he used an arduino
i mean link is known being kinda glitchy in melee (AsumSaus already dedicated a video about him) so i wouldn't if this was actually real because any program error
He used an attack that put Mewtwo's tail as close to Link as possible.
Hookshot grabs (the grab-able section of) Mewtwo's tail.
And that is the result.
This is such a classic Smash interaction that it is practically a constant across all Smash games. I've heard about this way more in Ultimate, but who knew that one of the most famous jank interactions in the series is another example
5:19 I can’t stop laughing lmao 🤣
Ok, now I need to know how that Link grab tech from the outro works. That looks hilarious.
astounding video as always!! :D
Only 5 likes for a verified person that’s rare
@@commenter6328 Yeah, I've only seen like like 3 times total, including now. Love your videos Mysticat
ew furry 🗣
Hey mysticat
People learning about extended hurtboxes would never survive guilty gear
He really did have the most overpowered grab in the game just by leaning forward
This is so well edited dude. Your videos continue to raise in quality each time. It’s amazing!
imo the reason that marths grab range looks crazy is cause it can hit from pretty far away but as soon as it hits it instantly teleports the opponent right in front of marth so it looks like it shouldn't have hit
The presentation is SOOO good I subbed in the first 15 seconds when I noticed you edited the audio to match the physical space. The rest of the editing did not disappoint, great work!!
“Except for Game & Watch” should be on a shirt with how much it’s said in relation to every melee thing
3:26 I love how you shrunk it to 4:3, the way god intended 😂
My b 😂
@@Newbhope oh wow it’s your video! Awesome :) no problem, I’m just used to melee in 4:3 since I don’t play that hardcore 😅
AsumSaus really out here making an entire video just to hide the fact that he edited Marth's grab hitbox to make it look smaller, ugh, how shameless
You could have make a comparison of different characters grab length respect to their position vector.
Marth gigantic grab range is not only due to his extended arm, but also because he leans his body much more than any other character.
Characters grab is like a modest hug, but Marth grab is like he try to take the last cake on the table.
The way he pulled Luigi towards him using the Force - Darth Marth!
this man is literally writing the melee bible
Great video as always! I hope you cover that link grab in a future video, I’ve never seen it before!
Link brought the longshot to the fight
Your editing is always so asum to watch. the moon at the end is a really nice touch 😊
The amount of detail and effort in editing of these videos is baffling. Great job!
Marth's grab game is insane. Melee's gameplay, however, is more so.
1:44 holy shit yoshis neck
Amzing video as always. Also, love your editing! Very engaging and makes understamding easier.
0:08 marth trying to be like kazuya
man bowser gets done dirty in these vids every time because of standing grab but his dash grab is actually really good because he extends so far
I already knew where this video was going to go LOL
I was a Marth main in Melee and PM, and I remember my PM friends complaining about my busted grab range. PM has a toggle that shows hitboxes and also allows you to move the game forward frame by frame.
I showed them that it wasn’t broken, the man just leans forward really far.
Feels so sad to know that we’ve explored so much of the past that the isn’t much coverage anymore
It’s so exciting when you upload a new video. Although I’m not a Melee player (my all time main throughout the games is G&W), I absolutely love learning about the game.
Honestly blurring the turnip stats was kinda sweet
@Snake3417 Cause it was giving the other guy free viewership
@@Snake3417are you dence? So if you want the info you got to watch the video??
Other fun fact about grabs: When DK is doing his down B, there is a way that a person can grab him by the elbow through a platform, namely on FoD. Will that ever happen in a competitive setting? Probably not, but it’s a nice party trick
I expected clicking on the video, say haha and leave but no, i've been captivated the whole time and I wanted more. Great job!
Crazy how I'm still learning things about this game. Fantastic videos. Very well made
I waited at the end with bated breath for either Falco or the moon to get grabbed
My headcanon is that Marth stole Yoshi and Bowser's grab ranges and added it to his own.
Man, you've got some of the best videos on TH-cam period. Your style is so great. Thanks for another great video.
So I guess the quickness of Marth's grab animation is why this type of misconception doesn't really happen to anyone else?
Yup it's too fast to properly see and how quickly it moves you into grab animation makes it look ridiculous.
Yeah, it's only a few frames between him standing upright and him suddenly leaning very far forward with his arm outstretched. Especially since you often don't see the fully outstretched frame at all since that's the one that usually causes the overlap.
1:07 my gf the first time she pulled down my pants
Oof
completely reasonable lengthwise! :D
This makes me think of fighting with blades in martial arts, where when you move away from your opponent you keep your arms down against your sides to avoid any possible attacks from your opponent.
Come to think of it just the risk of getting grabbed might incline some people to choose their attacks in neutral very carefully.
Marth literally is his sword thrashing out at exposed limbs
Really appreciate and enjoy the paper mario noises used throughout all your vids btw!
The editing in the video is amazing. Super easy to understand with the visuals
Yoshi players really do be picking the guy with the longest nose on earth and then be confused why their nose keeps getting hit.
Can we get a character grabability tier list? I want to know which characters are the easiest to hug.
Your videos are complete editing masterpiece, it make the content of the subject so much appealing i love it !
dude holy shit I was binge watching your content and when I ran out of things to watch, you posted
God bless you AsumSaus for providing quality content
Absolutely top-notch editing. Makes the content you present super invigorating and a pleasure to watch. Looking forward to more!
“I’m sure I’ll get hate” guy when he gets featured in a video with 500,000 views
Man, ur videos are just top quality always, congratz
I love your vídeos, specialy because You make ir very serious and then beak it up with stuff like "if your oponent uses a ginormous f*cking atack..."
blud thinks he's got the hookshot
Having mained Zangief in SF6 for about 2 weeks now, grab range is simultaneously longer than you think but also shorter than you think. It's a lot easier to see in Street Fighter since it will show that you did a Counter/Punish Counter.
How haven't found you before!? This is amazing content and very well explained.
I just like your videos as soon as I open them cuz I know they’ll be bangers
1:31 Lol that was me and was also a joke
🤨
@@locomokuu2471 what’s that supposed to mean
Good for you!
Sure
@@Ghostpants446 wdym sure
How are so few people talking about the link mewtwo one? I would love to see a youtube short on the breakdown of that cause that one is absurd lmao
Another AsumSaus vid, another fantastic Melee piece of content. Love your stuff.
“Grab ‘em by the beak.”
-Nintendo Nintendo, 2001
So what I'm getting is that the problem is more that Marth's grab is disjointed vertically down rather than horizontally out. Like he's got some other "arm" under his left arm that can grab, say, Luigi's tilt in the clip midway through the video.