I’m not a cult victim, but I was in a relationship with a covert narcissist. The things you’re describing are so, so familiar to me, and it’s chilling. By the time he was done with me, I didn’t know which side was up. The initial love bombing was intoxicating for someone who had never been treated that way before, but the discard was the most painful experience of my life. I agree that a relationship with a narcissist is like being in a cult of one. Thank you for this video; it’s eye opening.
Your example is what I share with people who see the last stage of a cult member on TV (broken, broke, childishly dependent, needy and brainwashed) and think "Oh, that'd never happen to me!" It likely has, at some level, already.
By definition alone, the LDS church is a cult that I was wholeheartedly immersed in for years. There was a comfort in not having to think for myself while I was free falling emotionally during that time of my life. They helped and hurt me at the same time. I can clearly see that now. It took years to truly open my eyes, but I’m thankful for the time and process it took.
Mom , if you're a God and I'm a godling in training, who is going to worship you? Quick second later she said " my children" Okay well your " Moron" gee I mean Mormon church mom is polytheistic if we are all gods or godlings in training .
There is no specific definition of any group identity as a cult at first. NXIVM became known as a cult after being exposed, but no religion to my knowledge is by definition alone labelled a cult. But that said any group identity can be a cult depending on how choice and truth is dealt with in the group and there are definitely cult tendencies in the LDS church, as well as the Catholic, Muslim, Jehovah Witness and many others. However there are also cult like tendencies in atheists who follow evolution theory, football fans who idealize players and managers, American corporations, Hollywood, TV shows and social media, followers of rich people like Elon Musk, Capitalist Patriots who idealize political figures like Donald Trump etc....the patterns are many places, but to be a actual cult then the overall tendency should be to make you submissive to the group and to follow it without question and without helping you to grow to become more free of fear, doubt and addictive behavior. Its a tough distinction at times because the good and bad can appear so similar, but over time the greatest narcissists and psychopaths can not hide who they really are. I think the LDS church has both cult like leaders and non cult like leaders who has the heart to love and help others to grown. So I am not sure I agree the organization itself is a cult, but I agree there is a lot of cult like behavior, culture and tendency in the LDS church.
I was born into a LDS family in Huntington Beach California. Cali Mormons are laid back and I never had an interest in organized religion, but the thing that I thought was so weird was why would my loving heavenly father not let me be with my loved ones beyond the veil of if I got a secret handshake wrong? My God would not care about a handshake! Lol. Spiritually has nothing to do with organized religion. Thank you for your podcast Mark. You and Bonnie are amazing! She has such a lovely voice and your films are great!💜 ✌️
Did you hear what he says literally every single goddamn thing any group in the world is a cult. Apple is a cult. Tesla is a cult. Coca-cola is a cult. Trump is a cult. Woke is a cult. Every single business in America uses cult techniques in their manipulation in advertising.
As an advocate for people with mental health issues supporting people coming out of abusive relationships and having experienced them myself, I've been trying to find a sign that someone is coercive/trying to control you that can be seen throughout all kinds of abuse and is an easy indicator to keep track of without having to keep too much in your head at the same time (much bc of the area I operate in). The biggest indicator I have found that something is abuse instead of support, therapy and/or self-help etc so far is that the person that's supposed to be loving/helping/building you up expects you to give them tribute/credit for your development. This is something that's consider highly unethical within psychology/psychiatry and therapy in general (as well as within my area as an advocate) because it creates dependency. We don't want those we help to become dependent on us, because it's extremely unhealthy and creates that very toxic power dynamic that makes the person feel like they need you to survive. That's why we emphasize through the entire process that we just give them tools that we got from somewhere else/that worked for us - THEY are the ones doing all the work, they are the only ones that they should give credit too. We are insignificant in all of it, were just sharing what we've learnt, they are doing the hard work. I like this indicator because it's pretty black and white: no matter who a person is, if they expect you to give them credit for you working on yourself, that's abusive. That we feel grateful is natural, and that someone who has helped yoy a lot wants you to appreciate it is also natural, but for them to take credit for you hard work and development (along the lines of "You would've never gotten here without me."/"You are only where you are because of me." is one of the biggest red flags there are, no matter what context, because someone would only do that because they don't want you to feel like you are independent, and that is coercive control. As human beings we are wired to do whatever it takes to survive, so if we get someone to fully believe that they need us for survival, they will do anything for us, and that is one of the most dangerous positions we can find ourselves as human beings. And it doesn't help that so many believe that they can't get stick in abuse, because obviously that's what makes them/us vulnerable. Thank you for all the work you've done and that you're doing. All of it (including the documentaries) helped me a lot when I was processing my own trauma, so thank you. I felt a whole lot less alone 💞✨🍀😌
The most dangerous cult I have been healing from and undoing is the Ramtha cult. I am relating everything you are saying to my experiences with this as it was so damaging and yet so enticing. It certainly matches all of your data points in this definition. Needless to say I am so sorry about what we had to go through with to learn all of this nonsense, and love the way you are reflecting and defining the seductiveness and traps we all fall into. It has been a very expensive and difficult lesson I am sure, not only for myself but other idealistic souls who fell for the great deceivers. Your videos are the only content I have found that is able to address this issue of masters and cults. So I thank you for putting it out here. I am sure you are going to help a lot of us neophytes and gullible souls. Thank you
The "Us vs Them" is so insidious. I Had a friend who joined an MLM tell me when I slightly questioned the organization "Well, you know I am restructuring my life and I think people who don't want me to succeed need closer scrutiny." She sounded like a robot and that language sounded copy/pasted. This is a friend, that I have stood by through everything. I helped her start her business and encouraged her when she felt insecure about it. She's successful now. That was before the MLM. They slowly get you to cut people out of your life who question the group in any way at all (or toxic relationship.) When I was in a relationship with a person who it turned out was formally diagnosed with ASPD (I didn't know that at the time.) the slow drum beat was "I don't know, that one friend of yours is always so negative about us." or "Your sister is questioning your happiness." One day you look up and you don't have contact with most of the people you knew before this situation started in your life. This is very good work, Mark. As my mother used to say "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." She was half joking but, I should have listened to that warning.
Thank you so much for bringing this to us Mark🙏❤️🙏 You are an amazing person🥰🙏❤️ I met Keith way back in either 1990 or 1991. He was connected to an MLM that I was invited to check into. I signed a contract to be a part of it that very night. I regretted it immediately. After waiting a while, I went to see if I could tear my contract up. His operation had already skipped town. I was both angry for giving my money to him, but years later, I was so grateful that I hadn’t gone any further. I could see myself being manipulated by him deeply. I’ve dipped my toe in numerous cults over the years. Fortunately, I didn’t stay more than a few years with each. However, they each took a part of me. They always made me feel like I’m not good enough on my own. My experience with numerous religious groups is an entire other situation for another time. Again, thank you for speaking out and stopping Keith and Nancy 🙏❤️🙏
Cult is a closed community. It's called a cult if the intention and outcome is bad. It often has some other name if it's productive. Languages, county, religion, family, group, company, all ism's, etc. Things, weapons, tools and information can't be good or evil. They always can be used to help others, or to destroy others.
I watched What the Bleep.. Years ago, and as a lover of documentaries, I dove into The Vow and was surprised that I came across you once again. I love your channel and your insights. 😊
I grew up in a family cult. My dad was a preacher, and he was extremely controlling and abusive. Mom was never allowed to work or leave without him or us. Everything we did we'd burn in hell; like if we wanted to go see a movie. My brother once pierced his ear, and my dad chased him with an axe. My brother stayed away for 2 weeks. There are too many instances of abuse to list. I have cptsd from it and phobias like adorable. I have not left my town in years. Just leaving my house gives me anxiety. I have too many panic attacks, bouts of depression, i never feel safe, and nothing is ever good enough. Even knowing the reasons why I feel these ways doesn't help one bit. It's deep seated and so intrinsic to my nature.
I can relate and will be hard but it takes time just like it took years to create this…. Sit in circles of drumming.. humming for the relaxation of the vagal nerve helps …sit in groups .. surround yourself with pure open heart people…. It’s your body and nervous system that will need grounding… it takes times to welcome ur breathe back to your body surrender into the unknown… sleep healing oils, buy crystals for protection… Sage for cleansing.. be in nature. Earth heals us!
Thank you Mark! I was in a cult for 18 years. It was terrifying when I left and i feel like i am still recovering, although it's already been 7 years. Watching this helps me understand myself and have compassion for myself and what i went through. My deepest regret has been time lost with loved ones. I will have to look through your channel and see if you have any information on healing from the trauma.
Raniere is definitely Dark Triad. We have to start recognizing them better, and you are doing good work in that direction! Thank you! PS, came over from Cults to Consciousness!
@OwningAuthenticity:. You make an interesting point. Genuinely empathetic persons would not need to declare themselves with a label. It smacks of 'branding', sort of. I think that when people really become more aware, and learn to trust their inborn intuitive abilities and maybe hone that, they sort of quickly can discern the inauthenticity and manipulations of others, which can include those who are motivated by divisive selfish manipulative deceptive and predatory desires, those we call narcs, sociopaths and psychopaths. It is a bit like the fact that saints don't go around bragging and advertising or virtue signaling. Humility and real love can be felt by young ones who haven't been damaged by their caretakers or society, often. It seems to be true that dogs who are loved by their humans also just know the good heart or not of random people they may meet; who is a safe person. Then, there is the story of St. Francis and the wolf, which I suspect is fact-based. Each person needs to love themselves, after all there is a light we hope to keep alight within, the Life, the point of inspiration and awareness. You know, that one candle metaphor. People teach by example. Necessary to be humble through it all.
I was Indicated into a cult in my early 20s. I read a few books that got me asking questions. When I learned about the psychology of cults, cognitive dissonance, and hypnotizm, I realized I had been in a cult like organization for many years.
Hi, Mark! This approach is amazing! I'll translate and writing the video to Portuguese and quote on my academic paper (Forensic Psychology). 🇧🇷 Brazil is recently struggling with this kind of political cult mixed with the religious cults (in plural). Our Democracy was (and are) in dangerous threat. Thank you, thank you, thank you. For everthing!
Thanks for sharing your insights so concisely & calmly ✨ Having experienced a family cult, followed by cult's of one, i feel this info can save lives, hearts & minds ❤
Also Mark, I was fortunate enough to come across Dr Steve Eichel and work with him and his ex wife Linda Dubrow-Eichel well over 20 years ago now. I am so glad their work is still helping people! Not all groups fit the criteria of a cult but abusive relationships, domestic abuse, political groups and workplaces can have enough of the aspects to produce similar damage. It seems to me that with online algorithms the charismatic leader bit may not be necessary anymore, groups keep others in check with escalating demands for purity without an obvious leader. Do you have any thoughts on this?
I had to stop this bc of how correct it was and how much it reminded of a previous relationship and one that my friend who pulled me out of the dark of that is going through..
A great breakdown of cult methodology.. I've heard one of the best ways to get people thinking about their cult is to talk to them about another cult (e.g. Talk to a Scientologist about the JWs)
I can envision how each of these list items could be broken out into individual pieces demonstrating examples of how Nxivm (or Scientology) exercised each of these principles. I would love to see that. Many people have the false impression that they could never fall for a cult. It’s a lot easier than they think and they deserve being disabused of their naive arrogance.
@@markvicente7 I especially appreciate your matter of fact but not excessively dry presentation. It was done in an appealing way, for sure, but without the clickbait title and sensationalism so many employ in the cult-exposé space on YT. I’ve listened from beginning to end several times and anticipate listening several more, because each time it triggers more insights and I recall additional ways in which these tactics were exploited within scientology even though I’ve been out for several decades. The healing never ends. “How could I have been so stupid?” runs on autopilot in my head. So answering that question for myself has been my challenge from the moment the question first entered my head. Just as importantly, discovering ways to explain it to those who’ve never been “in” is invaluable. If I was in it and failed to understand it, how can it not be even more unfathomable for those who haven’t? I’ve listened to some of Steve Hassan’s work and others, but, as they say, presentation is everything. Whether it’s Lipton, Singer or Hassan, if it’s in writing it’s not for me. Too much trauma in my background to concentrate. I appreciate the restraint you demonstrate in your presentation of the material. As a filmmaker you could easily pour every visual device in your filmmaker’s toolbox for attention and clicks, but you don’t. I love that. What I dislike coming from many of the anti-scientology ex-member channels are the endless streams of personal anecdotes, often about abuse or coercion they suffered while members/staff member, but rarely about how they abused or coerced others. Abuse, coercion and deception are built into the woof and warp of what it is to be a Scientologist, albeit shrouded in an “ends justifies the means” mentality, but I’ve found very few who express personal responsibility or admit committing any specific bad acts. Maybe Mike Rinder’s admitting, “I lied”, as the spokesperson and second in command is enough for some but that’s got to be the tip of the iceberg. It doesn’t begin to address it. That is what was so very powerful for me in The Vow. You went there and I was floored and impressed by it. An honest self-examination is just as necessary on the path to healing for yourself and others as is the accurate assignment of blame on the leader(s). Your efforts to educate about cults is important and uniquely well done. Thank you for doing this work in a way that seemingly few can or have.
I'm an ex Jehovah's witness,😊 I was raised from the age of 6. In this cult. Got out at the age of 48. They are holding my entire family as a as a hostage to make me back. My own mother thinks I've got the devil in me. My four brothers and sisters don't speak. Hopefully one day they will al wake up
Bro, can you study the religion Iglesia Ni Cristo originated in the Philippines, and can you tell me if it is a cult based on their doctrines and ways.
I am curious about your experience with “what the bleep..?” It seemed very stacked with people involved with JZ knight who also seems to be a cult leader. Do you think that his tru and did your experience with this group perhaps predispose you to the NXIM one? I had an experience with what I consider a very cult like group who where credentialed psychologists. I went there as a young person while having anxiety and depression issues, was not the least bit a “joiner” of any sort and I appreciate the idea that people don’t join cults. Psychologists are who you are supposed to be able to talk about anything. I along with several other former members were able to get their licences revoked…not easy by the way…the evidence Required to do this has to be obvious and have multiple egregious violation of ethics backed by many complaints and testimonies. It is very important that folks stop thinking they are such good judges of character that this could never happen to them. These people spend a lifetime learning to manipulate we do not spend a lifetime learning about their tactics and how to defend against them. I can now often smell a personality disordered person at a distance and if I even suspect it Walk away fast. Lifton’s book ( I heard him speak once, so good) and Hassan’s book really helped me. This was all a very long time ago and my interest in understanding influence has never waned. I could make a boat load of money employing these tactics myself but I am too ethical to do so. You can be darned sure that those trying to gain power, control, or money from you are often employing at least some of these tactics. Best to know about them. Thanks
A lot of good stuff here, but I have to admit to a great deal of cognitive dissonance myself. Most cult experts seem to be privileged white people who have escaped a cult, which is a somewhat limited view. I came to understand cultish (narcissistic) behavior from a very different perspective. It's too long a story to go into here, but I'd love to have a conversation about it. I'll just say this here, your #1 point of PATHOLOGY speaks volumes. Mainstream psychiatry is probably the most dangerous "cult" of all. Most top psychiatric researchers could all be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which makes the entire pathologizing of anyone else somewhat ironic. The abuse of power in psychiatry is beyond the pale. That's what cultish behavior is all about - abuse of power by an overt (Trump), or more likely covert (Bill Clinton), narcissist. Pathologizing (labeling others) flies in the face of compassion. A core component of true compassion (not the false kind that is peddled by the experts) is recognizing our shared humanity. Judging (labeling) anyone else for anything but their behavior (the way they treat other people) is not compassionate. Compassion requires healthy narcissism (boundaries, self-protection, standing up for others). Anyone who defends harmful behavior (their own or anyone else's) lacks compassion. It's really very simple. Jumping through hoops to define what is and is not a cult gets really tiring to those of us who have figured out true self-compassion, have a healthy level of narcissism, and can identify malignant narcissists with a single question. "What's your opinion of Donald Trump and Bill Clinton?" A narcissist will defend one or the other. A compassionate person will recognize the unhealthy narcissism in both. We don't need 25 points to figure this out. We just need to start holding all bullies (narcissists) responsible for their behavior, whether they look and think like we do or not.
'Healthy narcissism' is an oxymoron. I think you actually mean having a robust ego, which is quite different. And it doesn't matter what colour someone's skin is, if they are getting the right messages out to people, and have good intentions. They are bound to be privileged in order to have access to the resources to be able to communicate their hard and painfully earned expertise. All praise to anyone who uses their privilege to help their community.
I still don't get why what he has done is so terrible that he got 120 year sentence whereas murderers often get only 10. Just doesn't compute. Something doesn't add up.
By murderers you mean 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree or manslaughter? You realize that you can’t lump all murders together, it’s more complex than that. Look at what Raniere was charged with and the sheer number of victims. A convict given a 10-year sentence is deemed possible to rehabilitate. People like Raniere or Larry Ray are proof there are some humans who lack the ability to change.
The family I grew up in was a high control group. Scapegoated by my mother, isolated from my father and siblings. I was always at fault. Plus infantilisation. I was always expected to be a child. Which did not play well when I left home. (My siblings and I all joined the armed services, to literally run to the other side of the world to get away from our mother). Went into an abusive high control marriage - I did not know any better. It felt familiar. Went into a job that operated like a cult, where any descanting voices was a disciplinary matter. Thanks to The Vow I now see all of this for what it was.
Brilliant as usual. Makes so many situations, individuals, and social and political climates readable. Thank you again for your well thought-out insights.
Well done! My mother is a malignant narcissist my ex husband a psychopath! Cults my whole life…trying to deprogram, and heal, no contact with everyone! Never felt such peace in my entire life! Thank you for your research it’s very well done!
Survivor of narcissistic abuse here. I recognize sooooooooooo much of this. Thank you for doing what you do. I am SO DOWN for exposing abuse tactics and educating. To use Lizzo’s words, it’s about damn time!!!!!! 👏👏👏
This video is invaluable and should be watched by everyone, especially in the United States right now. I wish I understood why so many people succumb so easily to cult entanglements. This frightens me to the core.
@Mark, I always enjoy your observations. For "just someone who's been deceived and figured some shit out," your insights are spot-on. Also, big fan of these longer-form videos. (I know you have a lot going on, but it's always reassuring to know that WTF is on mind also happens to be WTF is on mind. Once again, thank you for sharing!
I recognize you from the anti-scientology audience elsewhere. I agree that @mark vicente brings uniquely informative perspectives to the cult education space on YT.
I watched the documentary twice you guys broke my heart prayers going up for all of you victimized by this..evil is real in this world this man was pure EVIL... SO PROUD OF YOU WHAT COURAGE IT MUST HAVE TOOK FOR YOUR WIFE AND YOU!! DONT STOP THE GOOD FIGHT!
Im so sorry you had to go through such a terrible experience! Im glad you have such a supportive wife!Thank you for this podcast! Love thinking about "patterns" You have made this horrible bondage so clear. I appreciate your 25 points! My ex narc now deceased h turned church into a cult. It was the "frog in the gradually heating water". We became increasingly isolated in practice and doctrine, but kept making excuses for him. So painful and scary! It's been closed down for over a decade, but we are all still healing. My faith in God and Christ is still solid, but pastors, church attendance, is still difficult. Don't know if it will ever totally resolve. I'm 77 now, and take each day as it comes, knowing God loves me and I belong to Him😊. Keep up opening people's eyes!! Thank you, again...
I've been interested in cults since I read an article about the Moonies in Femina or somewhere about 35 years ago. At first the only stuff you could find (I'm talking the '80s in Mzansi, so you'd know about that) was about religious cults, but as time has gone on tbere's been much more info out there, and it's great! One thing I really want to ask is: when people kept saying that Keith was "the smartest man in the world", how did you just believe him? Nobody tried to confirm it, Google (or AltaVista or whatever was available at the time) it, check it out? I remember watching "The Vow" and as soon as someone said that, I went, "No, that's wrong! What about that Marilyn woman?" (I later checked on her name and it's Marilyn Vos Savant.) So I knew that bit was bullshit. I just don't understand how people immediately believed that about Keith when it was so obviously nonsense.
-tries to observe you 24/7 - places people near your house to "keep and eye on you - attempts thought reform - uses any sort of noise disruption - lashes out when you have different beliefs - withholds food or medical care - has charismatic 'leader' who is a horrendous abuser in private - attempts to coerce you into a relationship, business agreement, or any other sort of contact, without appropriate time to get to know the person or decide properly - makes over-the-top compliments, like constantly starting "you're much better looking than you think", etc. Mostly, things that someone might state early in a relationship, but they are repetitive, and don't tend to come as reassurance when you're having an off day, they are thrown at you as a diversion when the person or people make a fuck up - making posts such as "this is what happens when you disobey - claiming you are controlling when you stick up for yourself - having you followed everywhere you go, including to medical appts - stealing income/withholding money -restricting or doing away with transportation - claiming you are functioning as a teenager or a child, any time you become reasonably upset. - attempting to take away adult choices and privileges - punishing individuals for wanting to or planning to leave - sexual grooming - rigid belief systems in general - lack of individuation - extreme isolation - speaking about 'breaking someone' - making statements about how they do not believe in love, but will bond with you. - attacking over person expressing concerns - lack of or seriously restricted medical care - controlling communications - attempting to or controlling a person's body: sexual shaming, sleep disruption, severely restricting diet, constant negative comments on body when not what cult desires/ over -the-top compliments ans positive reinforcement when desired body type is achieved/encouraging disordered eating - neglect - interrogation tactics - lack of personal items - lack of personal space - cult members having keys to personal living space/entering personal living space/ taking items or food from personal living space without consent -redistributing individual's money or personal effects - manipulating reading materials - restricting access to media accounts, including personal accounts, or anything that would allow person to break cult conditioning - competitions regarding endangerment of health - extreme sexual practices - overload of sexually predatory adults in group - lack of personal responsibility - lack of regard for mental health - minimizing urgent or emergency events This is a cult.
Something that doesn't get as much attention as it should is the emotional reasoning in cult members. That, to me, is the real motherfucker of it. Having given up their critical thinking, cult members/highly-controlled individuals are left with only emotional reasoning, and that anchoring can be very hard to overcome. "I think it's true because I FEEL this way". But emotions can be manipulated as easily poor thought processes. One old cult technique is to put a group through some crucible that taxes their body and then stop, put them in a comfortable situation and bring up the leader or a picture of him. Then all the feelings of relief and endorphin flow get attached to the leader. It's extremely behavioral, and very hard to get someone to believe the leader is a bad person after that (and the ensuing indoctrination) because victims are anchored on those emotions.
You've done humanity a great service with this video. Thank you my friend. This is the end of the yellow brick road. We can now all see the wizard of oz for what he/she really is. Thanks again! Much love.
Thank you @markvicente, this was very helpful. I came out of a cult just over a year ago. It was a group created separately as part of a 12-step programme. I still struggle to accept fully that it was a cult but listening to the 25 characteristics helped me to relate to my own experience. I'm currently having weekly therapy sessions, that are helping me to heal from the trauma. I would say for anyone in AA, AL Anon etc. Please be careful what group you join and listen to your gut feeling if you feel something doesn't feel right - it probably isn't. I ignored my instincts for over 6 years and it nearly drove me insane. Thanks for spreading awareness Mark 🙏
Very eye opening! I wasn't in a Cult but definitely in a high control organization that involved many of these tactics on a personnel level. I'm healing but it is painful.
An important element and huge RED FLAG, is their use of negative judgments to make folks want to ‘improve’ themselves.. a huge distortion of Gurdjieff .. like work to seeing through ones conditioning.
Glad you and your wife made it out...... planned, painfully, to escape while bringing evidence with you. I commend those involved in bringing down the cult. Courage and fortitude got you to the other side. Thank you for your insight and sharing it.
Amazing how my Governor (Inslee) perfectly followed every one of these manipulations as he flexed his "emergency powers" for 3 years. He was, of course, the last governor to give up those powers.....in October, (yes, October!) of 2022. I knew he would be the last one
lol you literally using 3/4 of these techniques here on us. Us the smart ones who are in cults. The superior ones not in the cults the weak or evil them. But I won’t like and subscribe as that’s devotion.
Raniere having you reading about what he was doing seems like the ultimate gaslighting. He was doing right in front of you what he was claiming he wasn’t doing… dupers delight they get a high from doing shit in plain sight😔
It's a very good video so far, I'm on confession and I imagine you have studied this topic very deeply. I was reading the bible the other day and read something very insightful to me (that I wish I remembered), got the feeling that I shouldn't be living a double life where I have to hide some parts of me while interacting to others. It's not a position that demands confessing but avoids having something to confess, what do you think of it? Privacy in this context would be to not have someone looking at you while you shower and not to have people not know you shower naked.
@@realhealthrealwealth humans and dogs have similarities, doesn't make them the same. Maybe the cult you are a part of us believing in nothing. Apply this video to atheism and see how it lines up. "Don't worry, God is not real" "Don't worry, God's real" "Don't worry" "Nothing matters" "Everything matters" Similarities are all over the place, but only one can be truly true. 1 and 2 are both numbers Pizza and cereal are both food Muslims and scientologists follow a dogma Stretching and Kundalini yoga both loosen the tension. If you don't worship God you worship yourself. but at the end of the day if you step back and analyze yourself, you'll see your God(what you truly worship). Just be careful, existential dread is real. DMT and LSD are psychoactive Don't be paranoid and think for yourself pal. Use discernment to wean out the bad apples. FYI I'm a Christian. Before this I delved into many things I've mentioned above and they all left me nihilistic. True Christianity is the only place that makes sense when you line up everything else.
Having actively grown up in JW till the Age of 6 and attending meetings and congresses sporadicaly till the age of 12, I now recognise, after studying and listening to my families and others stories (thanks Lloyd Evans!"), I recognise EVERY SINGLE POINT that has been mentioned here within JW and their practices.... After watching the Vow with my mother I now feel even more connected to my mother! Thank you Mr. Vicente for spreading awareness of Cult's and their behaviours! Greetings from Dresden, Germany to you all!
Dorpat, T. L. (1996). Gaslighting, the double whammy, interrogation and other methods of covert control in psychotherapy and analysis. Jason Aronson, Incorporated (p.44-5). ---- Gaslighting and other covert methods of interpersonal control are frequently used by many people in Western societies. Most individuals have little understanding or awareness of covert types of interpersonal control, domination, and abuse they are exposed to all of their lives in their families, their schools, and their workplaces. They are not able to understand how much they have been subjected to such covert methods of manipulations and abuse until they have experienced relationships in everyday life or in psychoanalytic treatment that are more caring, more respectful, and nonmanipulative. ---- My conclusions about both the frequency and the prevalent ignorance (and/or denial) of these covert methods of interpersonal control are supported by studies carried out in three other disciplines: feminist studies, linguistics, and Marxist studies. In her summary of research on speech patterns of Americans, professor of linguistics Elgin (1980) stated, "Take as a given that men are brought up to be verbally abusive, usually without conscious awareness of that fact" (p. 286). ---- Gaslighting and other covert methods of interpersonal control are widely used by mental health professionals as well as other people in everyday life because they are effective means for shaping and controlling the behavior of other individuals. Brainwashing methods work-but so does torture! ---- Gaslighting and other methods of covert interpersonal control are opposed to the values and precepts of psychoanalysis from Freud on to the present time. Respect for the patient's autonomy, the rule of neutrality, the value placed on being interpretive rather than directive, are just three of the principles proscribing use of gaslighting and other methods of covert interpersonal control. ---- Though psychoanalysis explicitly opposes gaslighting and similar methods of indoctrination, there are several important features of the classical clinical theory that support and facilitate the use of gaslighting. Classical Freudian and Kleinian psychoanalysis views the patient's manifest behaviors, dreams, communications, and transferences as the distorting transformations of unconscious fantasies. Traditionally, the task of the analyst is to unearth both the underlying unconscious fantasy as well as the way in which it has been distorted by defenses. The analyst's interpretations are supposed to include not only what are the actual unconscious fantasies and percepts but also how and why the patient has been unconsciously distorting these unconscious contents. Note that what I have been describing in a schematic way about the psychoanalytic theory of technique closely approximates the essence of gaslighting. In order to be effective, gaslighting depends on first convincing the victim that his thinking is distorted and secondly persuading him that the victimizer's ideas are the correct and true ones.
Dorpat, T. L. (1996). Gaslighting, the double whammy, interrogation and other methods of covert control in psychotherapy and analysis. Jason Aronson, Incorporated (p.45-6). ---- Though an unconscious or covert kind of gaslighting is used by many mental health professionals, few of them realize its damaging effects on patients. My hope is that this study will assist therapists in first recognizing and then eliminating gaslighting and other indoctrination techniques. In this way, psychoanalytic treatment can bring about therapeutic and permanent structural changes rather than the temporary and cosmetic changes made by patients in unconscious compliance with their therapists' gaslighting.
you are quite right: I changed my mind and do no longer speak of “radical evil”…it is indeed my opinion now that evil in never “radical”, that it is only extreme, and that it possesses neither depth nor any demonic dimensions. It can overgrow and lay waste the whole world precisely because it spreads like a fungus on the surface. --- Arendt, Hannah. (1978). "An Exchange of Letters between Gershom Scholem and Hannah Arendt," in The Jew as Pariah: Jewish Identity and the Politics in the Modern Age, ed. Ron H Feldman. New York: Grove Press. p, 250.
It seems to me that when thought engages too much in narcissism and evil it becomes evil in itself. Thought tries to deepen into the pattern but the pattern takes over the thought like a virus. like a mushroom and begins to gnaw inside the person. Better to talk about the trauma.
Indeed, we killed God, but we still did not understand the consequences of this act. Increasing meaninglessness, the loss of values, an epidemic of malignant narcissism, a significant devaluation of empathy in relationships and devaluation in social solidarity, depression has been declared an epidemic by the World Health Organization, and the only reason anxiety and stress are not defined as epidemics in themselves is because we consider these experiences to be normal, like a cup Coffee in the morning, like managers with narcissistic-psychopathic characteristics.
There's a great book by Gabor Maté (2022). The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness & Healing in a Toxic Culture. I think that is a wonderful closing of the circle for a book by Thomas Szasz (1961). The myth of mental illness: Foundations of a theory of personal conduct. --- Normality is a myth and so is mental illness. We need myths because we cannot explain the psyche. But these myth don't help us feel wholesome.
Everybody thinks the side they are not on is a cult, the other groups are cults but not mine “I think for myself” pfft. When somebody says a particular group is a cult I look into it earnestly but if someone says an entire category of people on big spectrum, like half the country are a cult, I ask them to think again. That’s like saying “Christianity is a Cult” there are cultic groups that are Christian but that does not make Christianity a cult. I am both politically and religiously agnostic so I have no dog in the race here. Cheers.
I’m not a cult victim, but I was in a relationship with a covert narcissist. The things you’re describing are so, so familiar to me, and it’s chilling. By the time he was done with me, I didn’t know which side was up. The initial love bombing was intoxicating for someone who had never been treated that way before, but the discard was the most painful experience of my life. I agree that a relationship with a narcissist is like being in a cult of one. Thank you for this video; it’s eye opening.
Your example is what I share with people who see the last stage of a cult member on TV (broken, broke, childishly dependent, needy and brainwashed) and think "Oh, that'd never happen to me!" It likely has, at some level, already.
Same here I was in a relationship with him to until I excaped
By definition alone, the LDS church is a cult that I was wholeheartedly immersed in for years.
There was a comfort in not having to think for myself while I was free falling emotionally during that time of my life. They helped and hurt me at the same time. I can clearly see that now. It took years to truly open my eyes, but I’m thankful for the time and process it took.
Mom , if you're a God and I'm a godling in training, who is going to worship you? Quick second later she said " my children"
Okay well your " Moron" gee I mean Mormon church mom is polytheistic if we are all gods or godlings in training .
There is no specific definition of any group identity as a cult at first. NXIVM became known as a cult after being exposed, but no religion to my knowledge is by definition alone labelled a cult. But that said any group identity can be a cult depending on how choice and truth is dealt with in the group and there are definitely cult tendencies in the LDS church, as well as the Catholic, Muslim, Jehovah Witness and many others.
However there are also cult like tendencies in atheists who follow evolution theory, football fans who idealize players and managers, American corporations, Hollywood, TV shows and social media, followers of rich people like Elon Musk, Capitalist Patriots who idealize political figures like Donald Trump etc....the patterns are many places, but to be a actual cult then the overall tendency should be to make you submissive to the group and to follow it without question and without helping you to grow to become more free of fear, doubt and addictive behavior. Its a tough distinction at times because the good and bad can appear so similar, but over time the greatest narcissists and psychopaths can not hide who they really are.
I think the LDS church has both cult like leaders and non cult like leaders who has the heart to love and help others to grown. So I am not sure I agree the organization itself is a cult, but I agree there is a lot of cult like behavior, culture and tendency in the LDS church.
I was born into a LDS family in Huntington Beach California. Cali Mormons are laid back and I never had an interest in organized religion, but the thing that I thought was so weird was why would my loving heavenly father not let me be with my loved ones beyond the veil of if I got a secret handshake wrong? My God would not care about a handshake! Lol. Spiritually has nothing to do with organized religion. Thank you for your podcast Mark. You and Bonnie are amazing! She has such a lovely voice and your films are great!💜 ✌️
Wow. My family is Jehovah's witness and until now I only suspected they were a cult. Now im convinced
The vow was instrumental in me realising that the JWs are a cult . 3 years on , fully woken up and free .
Abraham Hicks all the way
Every religions are a cult every governments is a cult, every church is a cult.
Did you hear what he says literally every single goddamn thing any group in the world is a cult. Apple is a cult. Tesla is a cult. Coca-cola is a cult. Trump is a cult. Woke is a cult. Every single business in America uses cult techniques in their manipulation in advertising.
As an advocate for people with mental health issues supporting people coming out of abusive relationships and having experienced them myself, I've been trying to find a sign that someone is coercive/trying to control you that can be seen throughout all kinds of abuse and is an easy indicator to keep track of without having to keep too much in your head at the same time (much bc of the area I operate in). The biggest indicator I have found that something is abuse instead of support, therapy and/or self-help etc so far is that the person that's supposed to be loving/helping/building you up expects you to give them tribute/credit for your development. This is something that's consider highly unethical within psychology/psychiatry and therapy in general (as well as within my area as an advocate) because it creates dependency. We don't want those we help to become dependent on us, because it's extremely unhealthy and creates that very toxic power dynamic that makes the person feel like they need you to survive. That's why we emphasize through the entire process that we just give them tools that we got from somewhere else/that worked for us - THEY are the ones doing all the work, they are the only ones that they should give credit too. We are insignificant in all of it, were just sharing what we've learnt, they are doing the hard work. I like this indicator because it's pretty black and white: no matter who a person is, if they expect you to give them credit for you working on yourself, that's abusive. That we feel grateful is natural, and that someone who has helped yoy a lot wants you to appreciate it is also natural, but for them to take credit for you hard work and development (along the lines of "You would've never gotten here without me."/"You are only where you are because of me." is one of the biggest red flags there are, no matter what context, because someone would only do that because they don't want you to feel like you are independent, and that is coercive control. As human beings we are wired to do whatever it takes to survive, so if we get someone to fully believe that they need us for survival, they will do anything for us, and that is one of the most dangerous positions we can find ourselves as human beings. And it doesn't help that so many believe that they can't get stick in abuse, because obviously that's what makes them/us vulnerable.
Thank you for all the work you've done and that you're doing. All of it (including the documentaries) helped me a lot when I was processing my own trauma, so thank you. I felt a whole lot less alone 💞✨🍀😌
The most dangerous cult I have been healing from and undoing is the Ramtha cult. I am relating everything you are saying to my experiences with this as it was so damaging and yet so enticing. It certainly matches all of your data points in this definition. Needless to say I am so sorry about what we had to go through with to learn all of this nonsense, and love the way you are reflecting and defining the seductiveness and traps we all fall into. It has been a very expensive and difficult lesson I am sure, not only for myself but other idealistic souls who fell for the great deceivers. Your videos are the only content I have found that is able to address this issue of masters and cults. So I thank you for putting it out here. I am sure you are going to help a lot of us neophytes and gullible souls. Thank you
I'd love to hear more about RSE. What can you share?
Is this the JZ Knight Ramtha cult leader?
@@markvicente7 Everything I experienced from Australia and Blue College etc but still as an outsider, not an insider.
As an outsider I mean as an experiencer inside the cult.
The "Us vs Them" is so insidious. I Had a friend who joined an MLM tell me when I slightly questioned the organization "Well, you know I am restructuring my life and I think people who don't want me to succeed need closer scrutiny." She sounded like a robot and that language sounded copy/pasted. This is a friend, that I have stood by through everything. I helped her start her business and encouraged her when she felt insecure about it. She's successful now. That was before the MLM. They slowly get you to cut people out of your life who question the group in any way at all (or toxic relationship.) When I was in a relationship with a person who it turned out was formally diagnosed with ASPD (I didn't know that at the time.) the slow drum beat was "I don't know, that one friend of yours is always so negative about us." or "Your sister is questioning your happiness." One day you look up and you don't have contact with most of the people you knew before this situation started in your life. This is very good work, Mark. As my mother used to say "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." She was half joking but, I should have listened to that warning.
Thank you so much for bringing this to us Mark🙏❤️🙏 You are an amazing person🥰🙏❤️ I met Keith way back in either 1990 or 1991. He was connected to an MLM that I was invited to check into. I signed a contract to be a part of it that very night. I regretted it immediately. After waiting a while, I went to see if I could tear my contract up. His operation had already skipped town. I was both angry for giving my money to him, but years later, I was so grateful that I hadn’t gone any further. I could see myself being manipulated by him deeply. I’ve dipped my toe in numerous cults over the years. Fortunately, I didn’t stay more than a few years with each. However, they each took a part of me. They always made me feel like I’m not good enough on my own. My experience with numerous religious groups is an entire other situation for another time. Again, thank you for speaking out and stopping Keith and Nancy 🙏❤️🙏
I was never in Scientology, but have studied a lot about it. This episode expertly describes what I know about Scientology.
"Many people have not individuated' Excellent observation and description.
I came out of a cult years ago. This is the best analysis of a cult I have come across. Greetings from Ireland.🍀👋🙏
Wow, thank you!
Beautiful analysis! Truly comprehensive and so eye opening. We look forward to interviewing you tomorrow on the show! (Email with details coming soon)
Ok
This information is so easy to understand & identify. I am so glad you/others got out and took down NXIVM. Looking forward to your movies.
Cult is a closed community. It's called a cult if the intention and outcome is bad. It often has some other name if it's productive. Languages, county, religion, family, group, company, all ism's, etc. Things, weapons, tools and information can't be good or evil. They always can be used to help others, or to destroy others.
I watched What the Bleep..
Years ago, and as a lover of documentaries, I dove into The Vow and was surprised that I came across you once again. I love your channel and your insights. 😊
Thank You!
I grew up in a family cult. My dad was a preacher, and he was extremely controlling and abusive.
Mom was never allowed to work or leave without him or us. Everything we did we'd burn in hell; like if we wanted to go see a movie. My brother once pierced his ear, and my dad chased him with an axe. My brother stayed away for 2 weeks. There are too many instances of abuse to list.
I have cptsd from it and phobias like adorable. I have not left my town in years. Just leaving my house gives me anxiety. I have too many panic attacks, bouts of depression, i never feel safe, and nothing is ever good enough.
Even knowing the reasons why I feel these ways doesn't help one bit. It's deep seated and so intrinsic to my nature.
I can relate and will be hard but it takes time just like it took years to create this…. Sit in circles of drumming.. humming for the relaxation of the vagal nerve helps …sit in groups .. surround yourself with pure open heart people…. It’s your body and nervous system that will need grounding… it takes times to welcome ur breathe back to your body surrender into the unknown… sleep healing oils, buy crystals for protection… Sage for cleansing.. be in nature. Earth heals us!
That's terrible how r u doing now
Thank you Mark! I was in a cult for 18 years. It was terrifying when I left and i feel like i am still recovering, although it's already been 7 years. Watching this helps me understand myself and have compassion for myself and what i went through. My deepest regret has been time lost with loved ones. I will have to look through your channel and see if you have any information on healing from the trauma.
Raniere is definitely Dark Triad. We have to start recognizing them better, and you are doing good work in that direction! Thank you! PS, came over from Cults to Consciousness!
Yes, I absolutely agree! Thank You.
#11 I see empaths vs narcissists as the leading edge of us vs them. 💛✌️
@OwningAuthenticity:. You make an interesting point. Genuinely empathetic persons would not need to declare themselves with a label. It smacks of 'branding', sort of. I think that when people really become more aware, and learn to trust their inborn intuitive abilities and maybe hone that, they sort of quickly can discern the inauthenticity and manipulations of others, which can include those who are motivated by divisive selfish manipulative deceptive and predatory desires, those we call narcs, sociopaths and psychopaths.
It is a bit like the fact that saints don't
go around bragging and advertising or virtue signaling. Humility and real love can be felt by young ones who haven't been damaged by their caretakers or society,
often. It seems to be true that dogs who are loved by their humans also just know the good heart or not of random people they may meet; who is a safe person.
Then, there is the story of St. Francis and the wolf, which I suspect is fact-based.
Each person needs to love themselves, after all there is a light we hope to keep alight within, the Life, the point of inspiration and awareness.
You know, that one candle metaphor.
People teach by example.
Necessary to be humble through it all.
you said rick ross and i took a double take thinking the rapper.
I was Indicated into a cult in my early 20s. I read a few books that got me asking questions. When I learned about the psychology of cults, cognitive dissonance, and hypnotizm, I realized I had been in a cult like organization for many years.
Hi, Mark!
This approach is amazing! I'll translate and writing the video to Portuguese and quote on my academic paper (Forensic Psychology).
🇧🇷 Brazil is recently struggling with this kind of political cult mixed with the religious cults (in plural). Our Democracy was (and are) in dangerous threat.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
For everthing!
Always looking forward to your videos, and now to your course.
Your work is excellent. Thank you, Mark, for your contribution, insight, and sharing.
Thanks for sharing your insights so concisely & calmly ✨ Having experienced a family cult, followed by cult's of one, i feel this info can save lives, hearts & minds ❤
Also Mark, I was fortunate enough to come across Dr Steve Eichel and work with him and his ex wife Linda Dubrow-Eichel well over 20 years ago now. I am so glad their work is still helping people!
Not all groups fit the criteria of a cult but abusive relationships, domestic abuse, political groups and workplaces can have enough of the aspects to produce similar damage. It seems to me that with online algorithms the charismatic leader bit may not be necessary anymore, groups keep others in check with escalating demands for purity without an obvious leader. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Lifton was also the author who figures prominently in Steve Hassan's work.
Great hair cut!☺️
Commenting for the algorithm. You're good at this!
Also, at 10:43 casually dropping "isomorphism"
Listening every day ❤️ gives me such validation💖
Mark, thank you for this.
If you leave someone starving and think mowing their lawn is more important, don't be surprised if they kick your ass
I had to stop this bc of how correct it was and how much it reminded of a previous relationship and one that my friend who pulled me out of the dark of that is going through..
The Mission!
A great breakdown of cult methodology.. I've heard one of the best ways to get people thinking about their cult is to talk to them about another cult (e.g. Talk to a Scientologist about the JWs)
Cult alert!: Multi family movement by JullienGordon
Degrees are over-rated. I'd listen to life experience over the letters after a person's name any day.
I can envision how each of these list items could be broken out into individual pieces demonstrating examples of how Nxivm (or Scientology) exercised each of these principles. I would love to see that.
Many people have the false impression that they could never fall for a cult. It’s a lot easier than they think and they deserve being disabused of their naive arrogance.
Exactly right!
@@markvicente7 I especially appreciate your matter of fact but not excessively dry presentation. It was done in an appealing way, for sure, but without the clickbait title and sensationalism so many employ in the cult-exposé space on YT. I’ve listened from beginning to end several times and anticipate listening several more, because each time it triggers more insights and I recall additional ways in which these tactics were exploited within scientology even though I’ve been out for several decades.
The healing never ends. “How could I have been so stupid?” runs on autopilot in my head. So answering that question for myself has been my challenge from the moment the question first entered my head. Just as importantly, discovering ways to explain it to those who’ve never been “in” is invaluable. If I was in it and failed to understand it, how can it not be even more unfathomable for those who haven’t?
I’ve listened to some of Steve Hassan’s work and others, but, as they say, presentation is everything. Whether it’s Lipton, Singer or Hassan, if it’s in writing it’s not for me. Too much trauma in my background to concentrate.
I appreciate the restraint you demonstrate in your presentation of the material. As a filmmaker you could easily pour every visual device in your filmmaker’s toolbox for attention and clicks, but you don’t. I love that.
What I dislike coming from many of the anti-scientology ex-member channels are the endless streams of personal anecdotes, often about abuse or coercion they suffered while members/staff member, but rarely about how they abused or coerced others. Abuse, coercion and deception are built into the woof and warp of what it is to be a Scientologist, albeit shrouded in an “ends justifies the means” mentality, but I’ve found very few who express personal responsibility or admit committing any specific bad acts. Maybe Mike Rinder’s admitting, “I lied”, as the spokesperson and second in command is enough for some but that’s got to be the tip of the iceberg. It doesn’t begin to address it.
That is what was so very powerful for me in The Vow. You went there and I was floored and impressed by it. An honest self-examination is just as necessary on the path to healing for yourself and others as is the accurate assignment of blame on the leader(s).
Your efforts to educate about cults is important and uniquely well done. Thank you for doing this work in a way that seemingly few can or have.
I'm an ex Jehovah's witness,😊
I was raised from the age of 6. In this cult. Got out at the age of 48. They are holding my entire family as a as a hostage to make me back. My own mother thinks I've got the devil in me. My four brothers and sisters don't speak.
Hopefully one day they will al wake up
I'm so sorry
Bro, can you study the religion Iglesia Ni Cristo originated in the Philippines, and can you tell me if it is a cult based on their doctrines and ways.
Always be searching for truth.... and... avoid those who have found it.
I credit Miguel Conner of the channel Aeon Byte.
Great video
Boy howdy does Scientology use data mining!
I am curious about your experience with “what the bleep..?” It seemed very stacked with people involved with JZ knight who also seems to be a cult leader. Do you think that his tru and did your experience with this group perhaps predispose you to the NXIM one?
I had an experience with what I consider a very cult like group who where credentialed psychologists. I went there as a young person while having anxiety and depression issues, was not the least bit a “joiner” of any sort and I appreciate the idea that people don’t join cults. Psychologists are who you are supposed to be able to talk about anything.
I along with several other former members were able to get their licences revoked…not easy by the way…the evidence Required to do this has to be obvious and have multiple egregious violation of ethics backed by many complaints and testimonies.
It is very important that folks stop thinking they are such good judges of character that this could never happen to them. These people spend a lifetime learning to manipulate we do not spend a lifetime learning about their tactics and how to defend against them.
I can now often smell a personality disordered person at a distance and if I even suspect it Walk away fast.
Lifton’s book ( I heard him speak once, so good) and Hassan’s book really helped me. This was all a very long time ago and my interest in understanding influence has never waned. I could make a boat load of money employing these tactics myself but I am too ethical to do so. You can be darned sure that those trying to gain power, control, or money from you are often employing at least some of these tactics. Best to know about them.
Thanks
Hanson’s anti-cult is a cult.
What is 'Hanson's Anti-Cult'?
12:15 i feel like I'm still waiting for you to actually say something
thus far amnesty international "cult" has interrupted twice. I should never have contacted them. quite a comprehensive talk this.
Am gonna turn off now. Maybe I ought to set myself up as a "cult leader". Can't be bothered, let the mafia take it all!.
Join a REAL CULT!!! First United Church of Cthulhu! The stars are right!!! 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
A lot of good stuff here, but I have to admit to a great deal of cognitive dissonance myself. Most cult experts seem to be privileged white people who have escaped a cult, which is a somewhat limited view. I came to understand cultish (narcissistic) behavior from a very different perspective. It's too long a story to go into here, but I'd love to have a conversation about it.
I'll just say this here, your #1 point of PATHOLOGY speaks volumes. Mainstream psychiatry is probably the most dangerous "cult" of all. Most top psychiatric researchers could all be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which makes the entire pathologizing of anyone else somewhat ironic. The abuse of power in psychiatry is beyond the pale. That's what cultish behavior is all about - abuse of power by an overt (Trump), or more likely covert (Bill Clinton), narcissist.
Pathologizing (labeling others) flies in the face of compassion. A core component of true compassion (not the false kind that is peddled by the experts) is recognizing our shared humanity. Judging (labeling) anyone else for anything but their behavior (the way they treat other people) is not compassionate.
Compassion requires healthy narcissism (boundaries, self-protection, standing up for others). Anyone who defends harmful behavior (their own or anyone else's) lacks compassion. It's really very simple. Jumping through hoops to define what is and is not a cult gets really tiring to those of us who have figured out true self-compassion, have a healthy level of narcissism, and can identify malignant narcissists with a single question.
"What's your opinion of Donald Trump and Bill Clinton?" A narcissist will defend one or the other. A compassionate person will recognize the unhealthy narcissism in both. We don't need 25 points to figure this out. We just need to start holding all bullies (narcissists) responsible for their behavior, whether they look and think like we do or not.
'Healthy narcissism' is an oxymoron. I think you actually mean having a robust ego, which is quite different. And it doesn't matter what colour someone's skin is, if they are getting the right messages out to people, and have good intentions. They are bound to be privileged in order to have access to the resources to be able to communicate their hard and painfully earned expertise. All praise to anyone who uses their privilege to help their community.
MLMs!!!!!!
You should stay away not only from cults, but also stay away from pseudoscience. It's not spoken enough.
Yes - discussed that at 41:59 - #21 MYSTICAL SCIENCE
The loading of language being done by the trans activists is really scarry.
You have just described the democrat party to a T
I still don't get why what he has done is so terrible that he got 120 year sentence whereas murderers often get only 10. Just doesn't compute. Something doesn't add up.
By murderers you mean 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree or manslaughter? You realize that you can’t lump all murders together, it’s more complex than that. Look at what Raniere was charged with and the sheer number of victims. A convict given a 10-year sentence is deemed possible to rehabilitate. People like Raniere or Larry Ray are proof there are some humans who lack the ability to change.
Says more about You then.
The family I grew up in was a high control group. Scapegoated by my mother, isolated from my father and siblings. I was always at fault. Plus infantilisation. I was always expected to be a child. Which did not play well when I left home. (My siblings and I all joined the armed services, to literally run to the other side of the world to get away from our mother). Went into an abusive high control marriage - I did not know any better. It felt familiar. Went into a job that operated like a cult, where any descanting voices was a disciplinary matter.
Thanks to The Vow I now see all of this for what it was.
Sounds like a whole country
@@nadegenazaire4356 - The United Cult of America - The Fourth Reich
@@apacademy What is the fourth reich ? I am kind of Unkult excuse me !
Brilliant as usual. Makes so many situations, individuals, and social and political climates readable. Thank you again for your well thought-out insights.
Thank You for your support!
The "doctrine over person" thing made me think in the "principles before personalities" of AA. Just saying.
Well done! My mother is a malignant narcissist my ex husband a psychopath! Cults my whole life…trying to deprogram, and heal, no contact with everyone! Never felt such peace in my entire life! Thank you for your research it’s very well done!
This was life as the Scapegoat in a malignant narcissistic family system. I woke up to the horror of it all and went no contact.
Survivor of narcissistic abuse here. I recognize sooooooooooo much of this. Thank you for doing what you do. I am SO DOWN for exposing abuse tactics and educating. To use Lizzo’s words, it’s about damn time!!!!!! 👏👏👏
By far your best upload ever.
Thank You Commodore!
Right?!
@@markvicente7 More Mark the youth of today will listen.
This video is invaluable and should be watched by everyone, especially in the United States right now. I wish I understood why so many people succumb so easily to cult entanglements. This frightens me to the core.
America IS a cult 😂
Flipping the question: why are there so many people/ organisations that seek to control others by stealth for their own purposes?
These criteria can also be applied to the people who stormed the Capitol on behalf of their “Leader”. They worship him.
@Mark, I always enjoy your observations. For "just someone who's been deceived and figured some shit out," your insights are spot-on. Also, big fan of these longer-form videos. (I know you have a lot going on, but it's always reassuring to know that WTF is on mind also happens to be WTF is on mind. Once again, thank you for sharing!
Thank you for listening!
I enjoy your channel so much .
Thank you for all the education you contribute. X
I recognize you from the anti-scientology audience elsewhere. I agree that @mark vicente brings uniquely informative perspectives to the cult education space on YT.
I watched the documentary twice you guys broke my heart prayers going up for all of you victimized by this..evil is real in this world this man was pure EVIL... SO PROUD OF YOU WHAT COURAGE IT MUST HAVE TOOK FOR YOUR WIFE AND YOU!! DONT STOP THE GOOD FIGHT!
Im so sorry you had to go through such a terrible experience! Im glad you have such a supportive wife!Thank you for this podcast! Love thinking about "patterns" You have made this horrible bondage so clear. I appreciate your 25 points! My ex narc now deceased h turned church into a cult. It was the "frog in the gradually heating water". We became increasingly isolated in practice and doctrine, but kept making excuses for him. So painful and scary! It's been closed down for over a decade, but we are all still healing. My faith in God and Christ is still solid, but pastors, church attendance, is still difficult. Don't know if it will ever totally resolve. I'm 77 now, and take each day as it comes, knowing God loves me and I belong to Him😊. Keep up opening people's eyes!! Thank you, again...
I've been interested in cults since I read an article about the Moonies in Femina or somewhere about 35 years ago. At first the only stuff you could find (I'm talking the '80s in Mzansi, so you'd know about that) was about religious cults, but as time has gone on tbere's been much more info out there, and it's great! One thing I really want to ask is: when people kept saying that Keith was "the smartest man in the world", how did you just believe him? Nobody tried to confirm it, Google (or AltaVista or whatever was available at the time) it, check it out? I remember watching "The Vow" and as soon as someone said that, I went, "No, that's wrong! What about that Marilyn woman?" (I later checked on her name and it's Marilyn Vos Savant.) So I knew that bit was bullshit. I just don't understand how people immediately believed that about Keith when it was so obviously nonsense.
-tries to observe you 24/7
- places people near your house to "keep and eye on you
- attempts thought reform
- uses any sort of noise disruption
- lashes out when you have different beliefs
- withholds food or medical care
- has charismatic 'leader' who is a horrendous abuser in private
- attempts to coerce you into a relationship, business agreement, or any other sort of contact, without appropriate time to get to know the person or decide properly
- makes over-the-top compliments, like constantly starting "you're much better looking than you think", etc. Mostly, things that someone might state early in a relationship, but they are repetitive, and don't tend to come as reassurance when you're having an off day, they are thrown at you as a diversion when the person or people make a fuck up
- making posts such as "this is what happens when you disobey
- claiming you are controlling when you stick up for yourself
- having you followed everywhere you go, including to medical appts
- stealing income/withholding money
-restricting or doing away with transportation
- claiming you are functioning as a teenager or a child, any time you become reasonably upset.
- attempting to take away adult choices and privileges
- punishing individuals for wanting to or planning to leave
- sexual grooming
- rigid belief systems in general
- lack of individuation
- extreme isolation
- speaking about 'breaking someone'
- making statements about how they do not believe in love, but will bond with you.
- attacking over person expressing concerns
- lack of or seriously restricted medical care
- controlling communications
- attempting to or controlling a person's body: sexual shaming, sleep disruption, severely restricting diet, constant negative comments on body when not what cult desires/ over -the-top compliments ans positive reinforcement when desired body type is achieved/encouraging disordered eating
- neglect
- interrogation tactics
- lack of personal items
- lack of personal space
- cult members having keys to personal living space/entering personal living space/ taking items or food from personal living space without consent
-redistributing individual's money or personal effects
- manipulating reading materials
- restricting access to media accounts, including personal accounts, or anything that would allow person to break cult conditioning
- competitions regarding endangerment of health
- extreme sexual practices
- overload of sexually predatory adults in group
- lack of personal responsibility
- lack of regard for mental health
- minimizing urgent or emergency events
This is a cult.
Hey! Let's start a cult! We'll call it "Anti Kult Association". We'll spell it with "k" to avoid any contradiction. :)
Something that doesn't get as much attention as it should is the emotional reasoning in cult members. That, to me, is the real motherfucker of it. Having given up their critical thinking, cult members/highly-controlled individuals are left with only emotional reasoning, and that anchoring can be very hard to overcome. "I think it's true because I FEEL this way". But emotions can be manipulated as easily poor thought processes. One old cult technique is to put a group through some crucible that taxes their body and then stop, put them in a comfortable situation and bring up the leader or a picture of him. Then all the feelings of relief and endorphin flow get attached to the leader. It's extremely behavioral, and very hard to get someone to believe the leader is a bad person after that (and the ensuing indoctrination) because victims are anchored on those emotions.
just based on the definition you stated its the government in every single country around the world.
5 years out if my cult and I'm STILL struggling to listen to this.
You've done humanity a great service with this video. Thank you my friend. This is the end of the yellow brick road. We can now all see the wizard of oz for what he/she really is. Thanks again! Much love.
🙏
I like listening to these, it's Marks's voice, there is something calming about it.
Thank you @markvicente, this was very helpful. I came out of a cult just over a year ago. It was a group created separately as part of a 12-step programme. I still struggle to accept fully that it was a cult but listening to the 25 characteristics helped me to relate to my own experience. I'm currently having weekly therapy sessions, that are helping me to heal from the trauma. I would say for anyone in AA, AL Anon etc. Please be careful what group you join and listen to your gut feeling if you feel something doesn't feel right - it probably isn't. I ignored my instincts for over 6 years and it nearly drove me insane. Thanks for spreading awareness Mark 🙏
It's getting clearer to see that ANY group is a cult, in part or in tot
Very eye opening! I wasn't in a Cult but definitely in a high control organization that involved many of these tactics on a personnel level. I'm healing but it is painful.
An important element and huge RED FLAG, is their use of negative judgments to make folks want to ‘improve’ themselves.. a huge distortion of Gurdjieff .. like work to seeing through ones conditioning.
Glad you and your wife made it out...... planned, painfully, to escape while bringing evidence with you. I commend those involved in bringing down the cult. Courage and fortitude got you to the other side. Thank you for your insight and sharing it.
Thank You.
Amazing how my Governor (Inslee) perfectly followed every one of these manipulations as he flexed his "emergency powers" for 3 years. He was, of course, the last governor to give up those powers.....in October, (yes, October!) of 2022. I knew he would be the last one
Very interesting, very insightful and very “digestible” and understandable. 🌹🌹🌹
lol you literally using 3/4 of these techniques here on us. Us the smart ones who are in cults. The superior ones not in the cults the weak or evil them. But I won’t like and subscribe as that’s devotion.
Raniere having you reading about what he was doing seems like the ultimate gaslighting. He was doing right in front of you what he was claiming he wasn’t doing… dupers delight they get a high from doing shit in plain sight😔
It's a very good video so far, I'm on confession and I imagine you have studied this topic very deeply. I was reading the bible the other day and read something very insightful to me (that I wish I remembered), got the feeling that I shouldn't be living a double life where I have to hide some parts of me while interacting to others. It's not a position that demands confessing but avoids having something to confess, what do you think of it?
Privacy in this context would be to not have someone looking at you while you shower and not to have people not know you shower naked.
Lol, I don't remember writing that.
Hmmmm
Great video
Great chad!
You perfectly descibe maga
Sounds like ALL reLIEgions!! Christianity to a TEE!!
More so Catholicism
The more I listen to ALL of them the more they are ALL the same.
@@realhealthrealwealth humans and dogs have similarities, doesn't make them the same.
Maybe the cult you are a part of us believing in nothing. Apply this video to atheism and see how it lines up.
"Don't worry, God is not real"
"Don't worry, God's real"
"Don't worry"
"Nothing matters"
"Everything matters"
Similarities are all over the place, but only one can be truly true.
1 and 2 are both numbers
Pizza and cereal are both food
Muslims and scientologists follow a dogma
Stretching and Kundalini yoga both loosen the tension.
If you don't worship God you worship yourself. but at the end of the day if you step back and analyze yourself, you'll see your God(what you truly worship). Just be careful, existential dread is real.
DMT and LSD are psychoactive
Don't be paranoid and think for yourself pal. Use discernment to wean out the bad apples.
FYI I'm a Christian.
Before this I delved into many things I've mentioned above and they all left me nihilistic. True Christianity is the only place that makes sense when you line up everything else.
lori vallow is a goddess chad said that.
This is excellent analysis. Thankyou
Glad you'liked' it!
Having actively grown up in JW till the Age of 6 and attending meetings and congresses sporadicaly till the age of 12, I now recognise, after studying and listening to my families and others stories (thanks Lloyd Evans!"), I recognise EVERY SINGLE POINT that has been mentioned here within JW and their practices....
After watching the Vow with my mother I now feel even more connected to my mother!
Thank you Mr. Vicente for spreading awareness of Cult's and their behaviours!
Greetings from Dresden, Germany to you all!
Dorpat, T. L. (1996). Gaslighting, the double whammy, interrogation and other methods of covert control in psychotherapy and analysis. Jason Aronson, Incorporated (p.44-5).
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Gaslighting and other covert methods of interpersonal control are frequently used by many people in Western societies. Most individuals have little understanding or awareness of covert types of interpersonal control, domination, and abuse they are exposed to all of their lives in their families, their schools, and their workplaces. They are not able to understand how much they have been subjected to such covert methods of manipulations and abuse until they have experienced relationships in everyday life or in psychoanalytic treatment that are more caring, more respectful, and nonmanipulative.
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My conclusions about both the frequency and the prevalent ignorance (and/or denial) of these covert methods of interpersonal control are supported by studies carried out in three other disciplines: feminist studies, linguistics, and Marxist studies. In her summary of research on speech patterns of Americans, professor of linguistics Elgin (1980) stated, "Take as a given that men are brought up to be verbally abusive, usually without conscious awareness of that fact" (p. 286).
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Gaslighting and other covert methods of interpersonal control are widely used by mental health professionals as well as other people in everyday life because they are effective means for shaping and controlling the behavior of other individuals. Brainwashing methods work-but so does torture!
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Gaslighting and other methods of covert interpersonal control are opposed to the values and precepts of psychoanalysis from Freud on to the present time. Respect for the patient's autonomy, the rule of neutrality, the value placed on being interpretive rather than directive, are just three of the principles proscribing use of gaslighting and other methods of covert interpersonal control.
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Though psychoanalysis explicitly opposes gaslighting and similar methods of indoctrination, there are several important features of the classical clinical theory that support and facilitate the use of gaslighting. Classical Freudian and Kleinian psychoanalysis views the patient's manifest behaviors, dreams, communications, and transferences as the distorting transformations of unconscious fantasies. Traditionally, the task of the analyst is to unearth both the underlying unconscious fantasy as well as the way in which it has been distorted by defenses. The analyst's interpretations are supposed to include not only what are the actual unconscious fantasies and percepts but also how and why the patient has been unconsciously distorting these unconscious contents. Note that what I have been describing in a schematic way about the psychoanalytic theory of technique closely approximates the essence of gaslighting. In order to be effective, gaslighting depends on first convincing the victim that his thinking is distorted and secondly persuading him that the victimizer's ideas are the correct and true ones.
Dorpat, T. L. (1996). Gaslighting, the double whammy, interrogation and other methods of covert control in psychotherapy and analysis. Jason Aronson, Incorporated (p.45-6).
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Though an unconscious or covert kind of gaslighting is used by many mental health professionals, few of them realize its damaging effects on patients. My hope is that this study will assist therapists in first recognizing and then eliminating gaslighting and other indoctrination techniques. In this way, psychoanalytic treatment can bring about therapeutic and permanent structural changes rather than the temporary and cosmetic changes made by patients in unconscious compliance with their therapists' gaslighting.
you are quite right: I changed my mind and do no longer speak of “radical evil”…it is indeed my opinion now that evil in never “radical”, that it is only extreme, and that it possesses neither depth nor any demonic dimensions. It can overgrow and lay waste the whole world precisely because it spreads like a fungus on the surface.
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Arendt, Hannah. (1978). "An Exchange of Letters between Gershom Scholem and Hannah Arendt," in The Jew as Pariah: Jewish Identity and the Politics in the Modern Age, ed. Ron H Feldman. New York: Grove Press. p, 250.
It seems to me that when thought engages too much in narcissism and evil it becomes evil in itself. Thought tries to deepen into the pattern but the pattern takes over the thought like a virus. like a mushroom and begins to gnaw inside the person. Better to talk about the trauma.
Indeed, we killed God, but we still did not understand the consequences of this act. Increasing meaninglessness, the loss of values, an epidemic of malignant narcissism, a significant devaluation of empathy in relationships and devaluation in social solidarity, depression has been declared an epidemic by the World Health Organization, and the only reason anxiety and stress are not defined as epidemics in themselves is because we consider these experiences to be normal, like a cup Coffee in the morning, like managers with narcissistic-psychopathic characteristics.
There's a great book by Gabor Maté (2022). The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness & Healing in a Toxic Culture. I think that is a wonderful closing of the circle for a book by Thomas Szasz (1961). The myth of mental illness: Foundations of a theory of personal conduct.
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Normality is a myth and so is mental illness. We need myths because we cannot explain the psyche. But these myth don't help us feel wholesome.
Somewhat helpful
Well done!
Globalism !
Mark thank you
Covid?
Trump 🤔
Mark, you have just described the American Left to a T.
Left, right and in between, there’s culty behavior on display.
Everybody thinks the side they are not on is a cult, the other groups are cults but not mine “I think for myself” pfft. When somebody says a particular group is a cult I look into it earnestly but if someone says an entire category of people on big spectrum, like half the country are a cult, I ask them to think again. That’s like saying “Christianity is a Cult” there are cultic groups that are Christian but that does not make Christianity a cult. I am both politically and religiously agnostic so I have no dog in the race here. Cheers.