Weirdly, being a school teacher for some school districts is like being in a cult according to multiple things that you detailed in this video. Extreme overwork, constant degradation, walking on egg shells everyday, intentionally ruining people's self esteem, bullying, required to work for free (without pay for many hours)
That totally makes sense! I have never been a school teacher but the whole idea of there being "philosophies" or "frameworks" for teachers to follow, developed by someone with a PhD and little classroom experience, that are intended to replace actual structural supports and shift blame to the teacher when they reasonably cannot manage, sounds extremely culty in addition to all the good points you've made.
I'm a school teacher and a good school teacher may make you work hard, but they shouldn't be bullying you, destroying your self esteem or making you walk on eggshells. Instead teachers should be doing the opposite; they should be building you up, helping you, and encouraging you along the way.
100% mormonism. Born and raised in the cult, left at 26… ten years later, discovered narcissism and realised my very own family was a cult, just on a smaller scale. Eventually broke free from them too. Finally have returned to my Self, reclaimed my power, and have found freedom and healing. This information needs to get out there!!!
In a healthy family individuating can be described as growing up and striking out more and more on your own. In a cultish based family it is called failure to launch or remaining stuck in that family biz for life to promote the family name with very little in between.
@@natalialobach5982anything from postsoviet should be treated with caution because the totalitarian abuse was in that societal system for decades, and as a result it is “in the blood”. Many People need to recover after growing up there. Note in the video the main organizer of the cult was from Bulgaria.
Yes, a family with all other member, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, mother, father, siblings, can also be an example of a cult. Go against the family, and your threatened. Often, it's a precursor for those who are then easily preyed upon for the kinds of cults they are speaking about. We live what we learn, until we know better, we cannot do better
Thank you Dr. Lalich for saying that it’s perfectly fine to NOT forgive abusers. I’m sick and tired of the “wellness” industry pushing such toxic positivity. You don’t need to forgive an abuser to heal from your trauma and to thrive.
Thank you so much for expanding my vocabulary and my knowledge on this very complicated subject. I think many of us don't really know what we are dealing with since we are kept so busy with keeping everything together for our families.
Born and raised in a cult called La Luz Del Mundo, aka The Light of the World. 4th generation. Left at 30 years, I'm currently 31. It's been the most difficult thing I've ever had to do in my life, including childbirth. Currently in my healing & deconstruction phase. Dr. Janja and Steven Hassan have helped me so much through understanding how cults work.
I pray for you that every spell be broken off of your life in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. Cults can be very traumatizing but the Lord is able. I pray that he keeps you. God bless.
This information is so disturbing. As babies, we were trained to be an empath and a puppet. Our entire lives were covertly controlled as they took everything and anything they wanted from us. 63+ years later, they discard us like garbage; we are left with nothing; absolutely nothing. Even our hearts and souls are chewed up and spit out. Then we live; empty; trying to stay sane enough to pass the humanity tests of life. Nobody is coming to rescue us. We find the strength in videos like this one to keep pushing forward. Sending you all strength to do that; and my gratitude to Dr. R and Dr. J for this video. What an eye opener!! Thank you both!!
I can certainly relate. I am 59 and still in therapy since 33. I grew up with an alcoholic, drug addicted family, I've been to Al-Anon for most of my life and I'm still not healed. I was the scapegoat and my self esteem suffers everyday. My mental health has been so badly damaged. 😢
Reminds me of the military. You are always told you are doing great for your country, but when you ask questions about the common goal, no one has answers or you get reprimanded. You work super long hours and we were told on boot camp, the goal is to break us down and build us back up. We got broken down, but I’m still building myself back up and have been out since 2014.
I was raised LDS (Mormon) and I suffered a great amount while serving as a missionary. I have tried so many times to explain my experience of being manipulated and abused to my family (all LDS as well). I don't know if it will help get through to them, but this is giving me an insight to the language and framing to help explain it so much better. Thank you.
This conversation was amazing and SO needed! It seems like many cults are being uncovered and brought into the light~ I'm most excited about Christianity being called out and the darkness of this "religion" being put into the light. I was love bombed in an evangelical church but then when I tried to get close to these people, build actual deep relationships, I kept hitting a wall. It was really frustrating. At this point I see the dynamic: -love bomb -make someone lonely and lost feel accepted and loved! -don't let them close, don't become good friends with them, though -that person then feels they have to try harder to be accepted, so they start observing people who ARE being accepted, looking for cues so that they too can be accepted. Pray this way Speak in tongues Fast Follow all the rules Listen to the leaders/elders/pastors, do everything they say... Attend every church function, etc... Maybe THEN I'll be accepted? It sucks you into this vortex. It's horrible. Again, thank you for this discussion!
I am sorry for your experience. Please read your bible. Please know that many churches are not like this. There area lot of false doctrines (of men) out there & Jesus warned us of that. Even the first century church had developed problems that the apostles had to address. Find people online that you like. Today that is a very viable option. TH-cam has a lot of good people who talk about all kinds of topics in Christianity. May I suggest Mike Winger to start with? He does a lot of deep dives into scripture and answers questions every Friday. (I am not affiliated, I just find him to be very knowledgeable, willing to continue to learn, and a genuinely kind man). Please also know that no one is 100% on this so we all need to study for ourselves & keep in contact with God.
Jesus was crucified by such church leaders 2000 years ago for speaking the truth on their hypocrisy and narcissism, and the same people would emotionally crucify genuine believers again and again. Just follow Jesus with your heart. No need to waste time in those churches, definitely looking like cults these days. God is real. Lucifer was the first narcissist and that's how all the troubles started.
I am amazed at how much this mirrors my experience as a (now former) clergy person in a mainline church in the US. We did all of this in a lighter version.
I had a similar thought about my experience as a now former lay member of a mainstream church in Europe. Since it is usually done in more subtle ways, and you are not physically as restricted as you would be in those heavy-weight cults, the concern is dismissed. I wonder if one could draw a parallel: a mainstream church is more like a vulnerable narcissist, whereas a cult similar to those described in the podcast is more similar to a malignant rageful narcissist?
Born and raised in a cult, experienced Incest from being an infant by both my parents. I experienced a lot of sexual & physical & emotional & mental & verbal violence and abuse all my life, recreated it over and over was raped and abused most of my life until I stopped repressing everything and started to understand I was raised in a cult. During covid when they opened the flights I just left everyone and everything, moved country, started new and now handling and healing from CPTSD . I was repressed most of my life and have a lot of trust issues and flashbacks.. very long healing journey...but - at least I'm out!!!!!
My heart aches for you! I am amazed by your strength and persistence to not only survive, but to do so with such great insight. I am proud to “meet” you
What I found insightful was to point out that there are political cults, not just religious cults. And it can be on a spectrum, some worse than others, and can be in any group, system, family, political organizations, on and on, not just religious cults. Very helpful. Thank you.
I think it's important to emphasize how it's not a singular political party, but happens on both sides of the aisle. Dr. Lalich's personal story is an example of the extremism on the Democratic Party side at the time. Demonizing and silencing moderates is always problematic and dangerous.
@@patricianoel7782This is true. However, Communal Narcissism is hyper prevalent in Left-Wing circles, as this is the current dominant culture. There have been several studies on Left Wing Authoritarianism & Virtue-Signalling, and how these correlate with NPD, Cluster-B and Dark Triad traits (in some figures at 0.7!) These traits will manifest wherever the virtue is in a dominant society or sub-group. This phenomenon can be seen in many Puritanical denominations of religion. As the Intersectional perspective is the current dominant quasi religion in the West, this is where the Communal Narcissists will typically pool. Just ask Dr.R -- she lives and works in L.A. I think it's important to note that the dominant perspective is just a vehicle for narcissists, and if we were largely Christian in the West, that would be the vehicle instead. You'll note the outrage, rallying, gaslighting, nagging, shame, guilt, pressure, gossiping and conformist tactics of these types. Pluralism is unheard of, as it's a race for purity.
The best way to apply the label of a dangerous high control ideology, or cult, is to be able to see if the shoe fits. It doesn't matter what the group is supposedly about, or if it is even about anything in particular at all... ...But instead it's more about the dynamics, especially control dynamics, and patterns and being able to conceptually match those to the control patterns of a dangerous high control group. A key indicator of the use of cultic mind control undue influence is how they talk about it, they're use of language. In Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, Lifton speaks of "Milieu Control", "Loaded Language", and "The Demand for Purity"... Which basically amounts to controlling what people think by manipulating and controlling the conversation around things and include using tactics such as "Splitting" and loaded comments. (Oftentimes narcissists use similar conversational tools to get their way. Btw, dangerous high control groups are a breeding ground for narcissistic attitudes and emotions, often times unconsciously. (But of course isn't that where cultic pseudo personality overlays develop? From the harm in microtraumas of the interactions and dynamics?) 😅 (Long rant coming to an end😂) Cults, can develop just about anywhere either intentionally or not intentionally... It's being able to recognize the control patterns and dynamics which can help people avoid from joining in with the social psychological mob mentality without being aware of it.
Very interesting episode as expected Dr Ramani . Cuban people have been living in a massive cult for 64 years . Many families have been destroyed on behalf of the “ Revolution “. Each point mentioned in this interview resonated so much with what have gone through all this years.
This is very familiar. I was in a different Marxist cult. It’s hard to explain that the cult was political. People assume cults are spiritual or religious. I left the cult 45 years ago and continued my involvement with the labor movement but, in many ways my ability to work effectively was damaged by my cult experience. I like to think I recovered from the cult experience but sometimes I fall apart in political work and I can’t explain why. I recruited friends and family to the cult. Some of them still hate me decades later. In my case, as a teenager, I left a narcissistic family and went straight into the cult.
My healing from a cult started with recognizing the narcissism. It took me a year after leaving to realize it’s a cult (Lisa Williams community). She financial and sexually abuses students. She’s incredibly charming. It’s scary.
They have to be charming. It's an essential component of the grappling hooks they stick in you to twist the knife in later. "Look, I got some honey on a stick! Look, it comes with all these charming smiles... Now just point to your heart and I'll stick this knife in you, and keep twisting it and twisting it until you're NOTHING and I have your soul." Something like that.
I woke up and checked Spotify this morning and was SO excited to see Dr. Janja Lalich as your guest! Her book Take Back Your Life helped me a lot after emerging from a job with a narcissistic boss and not receiving any real-world help or validation from my mental health team or therapist. The metaphor of the "shelf" is incredibly useful when dealing with "death by a thousand cuts" situations as Dr. Ramani so aptly puts it. Thank you so much for arranging this interview! ❤⭐
I grew up in a family cult that followed IBLP, dobson teachings but in a secluded hermit way. They had the books but we had very little contact with the outside world. It was on a 40 acre farm in the mountains of Oregon miles from any other settlement. There was no electricity or phones . Running water wasn't available until I was about 12, even then that was just pumped from a stagnant pond.We drank that water unfiltered with no chlorine or attempt at making it safe. The emotional, physical and sexual abuse was constant. My father was our central narcissist . I have struggled in my life to maintain healthy relationships, I have fallen into a pattern of attaching to narcissistic males. I didn't realize this until recently. I have worked my way through the different types of narcissistic styles each time thinking "he is so different from who I fell for before" but later finding myself in the same type of toxic abusive patterns. In hindsight I've been with a malignant, grandiose, and 2 covert... I am now at this time trying to free myself from a covert. It's hard. I moved away with him and am secluded, my work dried up with the pandemic and move. I'm 45 with no education and I feel frozen as to how to rebuild . I'm glad I could write this out. It feels good to tell someone and no-one.
I just watched Shiny Happy People documentary! I had never heard of the group until I watched it. I’m a Mormon…on my way out after 65 years! 😮I hope for your progress as you press on in life, friend.
@patricianoel7782 thank you. I hope your journey out of mormonism is fulfilling and positive. A good book that helped me was "Women Beyond Belief " by Karen Garst
Just started this episode, so excited you are interviewing Dr. Janja. Born into a small cult my father started and led. And lifelong struggle to even realize what is going on and why I've had a string of terrible relationships, churches, etc. Still trying to find what would be best to help undo and heal from all the decades of compounded abuse. Looking forward to this convo. Thank you for all you do
I grew up Christian and went through the same issues and trying to figure out why. Now I’m more spiritual and go to church if I feel like it. Otherwise, I don’t.
Excited to see Dr Ramani interview Dr Lalich! Listening to this as I recover from two past narcissistic relationships and a Jehovah’s Witness upbringing
Cults and narcissism are closely tied, cult leaders are always narcissists and use the same tactics in controlling people who fall into their web. Cults are basically narcissism scaled up and the flying monkey aspect is amplified because there are more of them.
The protestant church in Bulgaria was a cult when I was a teenager 20 years ago. Lovebombing and then discard when you didn't follow blindly. The pastor, he called himself an apostle, was incredibly charismatic but lived in US with his American wife, so he came like an angel from the skies from time to time. Someone said he used to be an actor and it all made sense that he was acting the whole time.
I've been had...it's humiliating, embarrassment, shameful. I didn't see it coming, especially from people whom I grew up with in the same house. I truly appreciate and enjoyed this conversation as painful as the truth may be. Thank you both.
@@christinelozier3511You clearly weren't listening.Cults have nothing to to with size.Typical ignorant comment from someone who has never been in a cult or studied them
QUESTION: Dr. Ramani (and her wonderful staff!), I was in Synanon, the drug program/cult, for 9+ years (age 17 to 26). I heard you say on Dr. Chatterjee's channel that there is an overlap of 60% with addiction and narcissism. Are 60% of narcissists addicts or are 60% of addicts narcissists? Not that it matters... lol! But there were soooo many narcissists in Synanon. Not just the founder but the property directors, the sales people (omg the sales team... what a hot bed of narcissism!). Much more than 15% of the people in Synanon were narcissists. There were the cruel malignant menacing and the vapid mild and everything in between! Thank you so much for this video! Thank you to Dr. Janja for your work! Such a great video!!!
When my psychopath therapist was asked questions he would say “Oh you have trust issues. This is just talk therapy. And you have a problem with the therapy process and are resistant to doing the work.”
@@GinsWeydahl so easy for a therapist to do this, even their training is like a guide on doing it, just take it a step further and they have so much power over you..
@@claireh.7605 It was grooming- hypnoses- two month became 6, 5 year. This was psycoanalytic- I had no idea what I was into, he used me as an object and a "case" study where he pretend I was his Sick patient - then he became almost a cult leader with his own "scool " . Sponsored by the Norwegian State - who do not have a clue- He has his brother i law and a few other people who are his true servants.
My uncle has all those tendencies Loyalty is a one way, don’t dare express any different because you instantly become the enemy and the belittling begins You almost have to give up your autonomy 😬 yikes Thank you to both ❤
Could you do talk on Narcissistic Motivational Speakers/Coaches and their coaching programs? I had an experience with one and now I've come to believe that much of what went on resembled a cult.
I had to leave my family cult and it has been very damaging. They have intentionally ruined my life in anyway they could possibly think of because i stood up for myself. This information is very appreciated thank you. I'm looking for a good charity because my daughter is less than deserving and making my grandsons the same way. It's very sad!
The susceptibility to be drawn into a cult is an unhealthy family background. Some cult members do not have to be manipulated very much to join because they are already searching for it due to their particular needs and developmental environment. A cult does not have to be a group. You could be part of a cult of only two people where one person is dominant and controlling. The most common version of this is typically in the news once a week. It is commonly the story of a woman who decides to leave her domineering, abusive boyfriend/husband, which in his thinking is the ultimate unforgivable offense and is deserving of severe punishment or death.
When I was 10 (family -both parents had narcissistic tendencies), I had heard enough times that mercury was poison. For months, I kept breaking thermometer after thermometer and collecting mercury drops from each one into a vial. One day the right time came and I did drink the whole thing. All to just finally put an end to the emotional pain I was feeling. I was 10…what 10 year old is suicidal and blames themselves for feeling that way? Me! All because of the abuse/neglect/confusion/disregulation at home. I was always the black sheep and never fit in with them so the moment I found help I did intense in-patient therapy followed by years of CBT. I have finally put an end to all connection to my birth family but my recovery will be endless. Yes, I carry external consequences I didn’t ask for but I only have this life and I choose kindness and empathy above all. For anyone who can’t physically leave but wants to do the work, just do it if you find the resources! You’ll learn to detach and you’ll have made tons of progress by the time you can finally put physical distance! You got this 💪
Great interview. I was born into a cult and was compelled to obey every facet of it until I was 16. That said it is one thing to get the person out of a cult and a whole different matter as to getting the cult out of the person. I'm 63 now and sometimes it is as if I never got away from it at all. After listening to the interview I found myself wishing that there would have been some focus on what kind of people are drawn to a cult. As an example both of my parents had, in my opinion, cptsd and joined a cult and never left. My mom 47 years until her passing, and my father 63 years and still a member. The use of fear and implicit threat of being excommunicated when brought up during the interview spoke volumes to me.
I read a good book about cultism .”The B.I.T.E. Model” by Steven Hassen. Tells how to recognize if you are part of a cult. He also did a podcast on Mormon Stories.
Excellent show doc!!!! Loved Dr. Janja!!! She's a rock star cult fighter!!! Loved how the cult members took down the cult leader and desolved it. That must have had therapeutic value in itself, wrestling some power back after having been oppressed and striped of power for so long.
This is such a wonderful chat. The story where the cult said 'well you're not going to the funeral" shocked me and almost baffles me how the cult exhibits zero empathy where you'd think they'd allow it to further keep the toxic relationship to continue rather this 'power' move was confusing, but I'm glad it added to the wake up call for doctor yanya. Plus also them making her mother work is completely unbelievable how abusive that was, poor doctor yanya being so crushed to not at the time recognize and have the strength to push back😢
...or to put it another way..."Dr Lalich exposes the heart of narcissism; and the frightening way that cults use narcissistic tactics to control their members."
Thank you Dr Ramani. This is a special episode for me. It was your TH-cam channel that woke me up to Narcissists around me 25 years ago that Fair-Gamed me. I woke up, and within days I found they were key cult-recruiters here in the UK for "Dr" Tony Quinn's EDUCO. I then watched The Vow, that Dr. Lalich was involved in, and her work (including the Bounded Choice model) has informed me greatly. I have friends who know Dr. Lalich and she is so helpful to those in distress. To see this episode with both of you is an absolute DELIGHT! THANK YOU DR. RAMANI!
Thank you both for this important and critical work, your insights, and your humanity!. I am now a thriving survivor (no more victim mentality, there are many who have gone through this!), of an ex-spouse enmeshed with his malignant narcissistic cult leader mother/sister/clan, who is precisely described to a T, by both Dr. Ramani and Dr . Lalich. I was talking with my 10-year-old about narcissism, trying to equip her with discernment and the courage to speak up and confront these grown-up 'wounded children/bullies', whose 4th-grade teacher began shaming and humiliating her in front of the class for months. My ex-MIL, who is, unfortunately, my daughter's grandmother and caretaker while in her dad's custody time, is also a retired 4th-grade teacher. I am a college professor of 22 years and have crossed paths with many grade school teachers who uncannily display many narcissistic characteristics and behaviors toward children. Many abuse children emotionally and psychologically, exploiting them for a sense of power over the helpless. Most admins never see this happening. I have had others in the administration of K-12 make the same observations. My ex-MIL was a 4th-grade teacher/malignant narcissist who controls her family of adult middle-aged children in 9/10 of the ways Dr. Lalich describes, like a cult, and she is the cult leader. For nearly a decade, I was ostracized and abused because I refused to comply with her tribal abuse and refused to worship her depravity. After being bullied by both my in-laws and moreso my ex-spouse, who would 'gang' up on me to try to enforce my conformity, my MIL secretly colluded with my ex, and her son, and paid for an attorney and bought my ex-spouse, her golden child, a house so he could ambush me and leave me. He walked away overnight and completely abandoned me and my 6-year-old 100% financially, emotionally, etc. The entire family had already begun the smear campaign and told egregious lies about me to an entire community. Within a few months, I relocated to a nearby town. There was so much more that happened and after 4 years of recovery, I turned the corner last year and now count my blessings every day! To all those out there, it is extremely difficult to heal, but much less so to stay trapped in the evil of these people. I immediately was given the strength to go NO CONTACT with her/him (he is her surrogate spouse) and the flying monkeys/clan/cult. I have never spoken to them since. The hardest part now is protecting my daughter as with our 50% shared custody, she is vulnerable. She despises my ex-MIL, and she is her only blood grandchild (they 'adopt' many victims in their 'family' culty;, and endures constant and chronic psychological abuse while in her care. Although to others, they wear a cloak of a wholesome family, there are may dark skeletons in the family closet. I am doing everything I know to do to equip my daughter, and the courts/legal system does not readily recognize this type of insidious abuse. Thankfully, my young daughter is becoming very discerning, and courageous!!! .....Dr. Ramani, your video and teachings have literally helped me to heal. Bless you, both for all of your work and love toward your fellow humans!!!
i thought i would never get out of the cult of religion. having grown up in the fundamentalist independant baptist church. then getting married to a narcesist and going to the southern babptist church. and eventually going to the apostolic united pentecostal church. religious cults destroyed me and i almosted ended my life. it took me over a year to be able to go out in public by myself. i am 51 now and doing a bit better. but i still have terrible anxiety and bouts of depression. it doesn't help that i recently realized i aslo have been autistic and have adhd my whole life to go along with my cptsd. my mother was also my first bully. i do not know if i will ever recover from this life.
I love Janja Lalich... I hope her book Take Back Your Life comes back...used copies on Amazon are currently over a$100... Thank you for having her as a guest!
I am so glad to finally see this issue being discussed with 2 major experts in their fields. What is more upsetting is when cults, sects and other groups hide behind and hijack mainstream religious teachings just to reinforce their control - and when people in that cult 'wake up' ( not woke....Lord Help us) they struggle to distinguish religious teachings away from the cult that they were a part of, and then enter another stage of almost 'hating religion', when the cult has *Nothing* to do with true religious/spiritual teachings, but due to that individual's or group's own twisted and disturbed internal state of being - they just want to drag down as many people as they can with them! I really hope there is a support programme where religious groups can actually help adherents of any given faith, heal and recover from cults parading as mainstream religions, but without letting go of their own beliefs.
I'm someone who inadvertently joined a cult and ultimately left Christianity altogether. I was physically attacked, and the cult turned its back on me. I moved away and joined a wonderful church where the pastor saved my life twice. Then I was forced to leave that area. Having to sit helpless while my niece dropped out of high school to join a cult is what killed it for me. Anyone with half a brain could see she should have been able to live with me and attend the same church I did. Plus, there's the matter of the Holocaust. That's why I left Christianity. I have since become a Buddhist / atheist.
@AuroraBoarder1 Hello. I'm sorry to learn of what you went through. I can only imagine how difficult or soul wrenching' it must have been, and then see in real time the pain of seeing your niece go through a similar experience again. I hope you have found some sort of justice for what they did, and healing and recovery - as it can take a good while to work through such an experience. No rush with that. And for your religious choices and beliefs, that's entirely up to you, and not for anyone to question or judge ( even though people...being people..... will do that). I just hope that more of us can see through these 'cults' and see that what they claim to present or stand for is an absolute twisting and subversion of religion/spirituality - even if it means, ( as I have done for some time now which Dr. Ramani also describes as part of the wider 'soul distancing' approach) that we practice our faith/belief privately so as to protect ourselves from being potentially targeted/manipulated by such groups pretending to be either Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist or any other established belief system. I live in London, UK and I can not describe in enough detail the countless and very dangerous ideological groups that call this city home.
Omg, my experience in the ICOC was so similar. 😢 It's so hard realizing what actually happened to you. This interview is amazing and so healing and helpful.
My daughter is involved in this thru college. May I ask what it was that pulled you away from it ?? I am heartbroken and desperate. So glad you left ❤️
@@ccz5216 I'm so so sorry. Unfortunately I left after 21 years 😭. I was fully indoctrinated. Continue to be part of their life as much as you possibly can. Continue to be an unconditional source of support and love so that they have a soft place to fall when they need to. Have you tried sending them videos from people left ICOC?
My family was overly religious and it was very rediculous I couldn’t wear a tank top in the summer or wear shorts couldn’t attend school dances, Halloween etc. etc. I was told I couldn’t hang out with my friends they wanted me to hang out with only Baptist people.
Beautiful Lady Dr. Janja surviving an abusive toxic " revolution" , recognizing the Real problem , then using her painful experiences and past to help others recognize and avoid similar systems
What a wonderful interview. I really think these interviews about narcissism functioning in groups is supremely important. Don''t stop broadcasting these talks!!
There are moments of this that make me question if being in the military is almost like being in a cult? The proccess of what it is to break down a person to be able to fight, for the cause, feels like this cold be similar...
My therpist explained just my family as a cult. I was a bit taken aback by her saying that. But when its laid out like this its... quite shocking to realise that it was really the same thing. Ive been with my rherapist for one year, ive only relaised this now clearly.
At the Project I volunteered for, it was repeatedly mentioned there were policies and insurance. However I was never shown copies of these policies or the documentation for the insurance (red flag). Be careful of organisations that request you to sign documents saying you have had training especially in relation to health and safety before that training is completed (red flag). This was an interesting discussion. Thank you both.
This is the best show I have ever seen. Thankyou please make more shows on cults thankyou. I wasn’t aware that there was so much control and they taught me my body is dirty and sinful and I should cover up when I wear a top. I had to wear my sleeves long or sleeves to my elbows no tea shirts.
Def agree that what should be scrutinized is the cult & it's leader. I do appreciate your story and learning that there are many different kinds cults (financial, yoga, dogs, religion, crime, politics, study groups, social clubs, labor, sex, etc. wow!) And the "fronts" that are the staging area for recruiting.
Loved Dr Janja's books and need more of the healing from what seems like might be what her non profit does. Thank you for this. And for both your time looking into this. I've had so many relationships with narcissistic types, and been in several cultic groups, after being born into the one my father started and led, it's hard not to feel like they are everywhere and that you'll never really belong anywhere if you stand your ground and live in your own integrity. But I definitely can't live under anyone's thumb or abuse any more. And especially thank you for drawing attention to how similar the individual is to the group dynamic, as I've been seeing those parallels for a while and it's nice to know I'm not making it up or just thinking that cuz I've been part of both too many times.
You don't necessarily have to formally "join" anything, per se. Patterns of undue influence just develop either intentionally or unintentionally. That's why there's talk about Trump and all the Q-anons and Proud Boys and other free floaters being part of the cult of Trump.
It may be very hard to pick up on such influence, since many of the facets you discuss are woven into the fabric of society. Conventional churches, army, social institutions also use many of these tactics to ensure conformity, yet they aren't malicious cults.
Oh my goodness, this is so good, thank you! Another aspect that could be interesting to explore is the interdependency of individual and group abuse situations. My mother, who had been abused in childhood, went on to marry my father, a vulnerable narcissist, and in her 50s joined a religious group (she is in her 70s now). It is not officially a cult (being a part of a mainstream religion) but operates like one. Now he 'generously' lets her participate (so she has an outlet and doesn't bother him), though he is not religious himself, while they encourage her to be a 'good wife' and serve him. The two sides basically reinforce each other, even if at the core they despise each other (he despises them as not intellectual enough, and they despise him as a 'sinner who needs to see the light'). Nevertheless, they serve each other alright.
This is a wonderful discussion!! My ex h narcissist was a pastor, and he turned the church into a cult. I'm so sorry for Dr Lalich's experience especially re her mother! Thank you for sharing this! This is all so important to understand and share.
I went to an OOM YUNG DOE Karate cult like business where they charmed me, told me to do karate seven days a week and wanted me to come do free work renovating their studio for them. The instructors and owners had this dazed look on their faces.
Just had to pause after hearing that heartbreaking story of the doctor’s mother’s passing - this brought me close to tears this is so sad and horrible, sums up cults so perfectly IMO, lost all connection to humanity and compassion, totally brainwashed by a narcissistic leader.
all relationships are cults the only question is whether they're beneficent or malignant. a healthy cult is based on freedom and consent, not manipulation and control.
This gave me chills… I left a hyper charismatic church and deconstructed a lot of beliefs. Then later joined a leftist Marxist group for a short time because they helped homeless- and I left within a few months bc of things mentioned in this video. I left feeling like it was cultish but couldn’t put my finger on it. Because I’ve learned about abuse, that’s why I didn’t stay long. I’ve looked this video up because I’m noticing a pattern in some groups/ communities I get drawn to which are cult like- but I never went into depth of what cults are. Maybe it’s a western world type of thinking as well but I am not sure. I just know when I joined a group chat with people from the eastern territories, this group had a different mentality about community. And that’s what made it more clear to me that there’s something I need to learn and unlearn in my own thinking patterns.
This is one I'll relisten to several times. As her work is so important and your interview, tho it does leave me wanting so much more, hits on so many nuances, especially if you read between the lines of what's being directly asked abs answered.
Nothing is more torturing than having survived growing up in a psychopath-controlled environment, to now watch and fail to free and save someone we love who is due to his own state uncapable of being freed himself! Studying everything I can in order to succeed. So hard! The toll it has on us to see loved ones struggling and their light and persona diminishing away and giving up to the narcissisism of the leader is psychological torture. I want us all to have support as well because it can be equally if not more tortuous, especially when the leader violates our own relationship with the targeted victim
Wow...this is so true about my upbringing...its trauma bonding....no wonder the rate of suicide for women here in this country is so high....the number of people that 'trafficked' their children into institutions due to systems of influence and control (guilt etc))...the malignant shame used as a device to ensure compliance...🤢🤮
Would Seventh day Adventism be considered a cult? You are gaslighted, diminished and put aside when you find the courage to walk away, worse if you should dare to marry someone outside the cult.
its a mental, emotional, spiritual cage... what they doing , is break your spirit: your will, your emotions...they break your wings and open the cage and say you are free to go when ever you want, but you CAN´T - emotional and spiritual/ezoteric attachment and bondage
This channel definitely needs more publicity - very important deep information that is greatly needed in society! I’m surprised so little amount of subscriptions yet!
I am sorry for you and your mom😢 they suck. I was caught in one too ,end with major breakdown and loss of all friends and family and my mom passed. I was threaten by the pastor.. I still pray there's a caring creator ,if not we're in hell. Getting help is near impossible . I am at present being shunned by the church. I never would have believed we today would be shunned,crazy. I would say another draw to a cult is belonging And wanting to help. "Ask not; what your cult can do for you,ask what you can do for your cult" sounds familiar. It's a dead by a thousand swords coming out. ☘️
Hi from philippines ..im speechless about cult specially religious cult..you feel guilty when u go out...i want to say thank u for this podcast..be Blessed
Different aspect on this, for what it's worth, being a Gen Xer, I am somewhat astonished and alarmed at the newest aspect of coercive control with the generation younger then me and their acceptance and embrace of conspiracy theories! I had a close friend who would expound about governmental, religious, and capitalist "conspiracy theories" which I just tended to write off. Then, I had the opportunity to talk with many others in his same age group 20-35, and was god-smacked to hear the same kind of rhetoric! When I asked them what proof they had for, whatever, they would look at me like I was from Mars and direct me to some TH-cam vid or documentary they had seen, as if that were verifiable proof of what they believed! It's quite honestly been frightening and sad to me! As the baby boomer generation may have been susceptible to a utopia POV, the younger generation seems to be susceptible to a conspiracy and perception of ominous and intentional evil surrounding them!
Weirdly, being a school teacher for some school districts is like being in a cult according to multiple things that you detailed in this video. Extreme overwork, constant degradation, walking on egg shells everyday, intentionally ruining people's self esteem, bullying, required to work for free (without pay for many hours)
That totally makes sense! I have never been a school teacher but the whole idea of there being "philosophies" or "frameworks" for teachers to follow, developed by someone with a PhD and little classroom experience, that are intended to replace actual structural supports and shift blame to the teacher when they reasonably cannot manage, sounds extremely culty in addition to all the good points you've made.
Totally agree with you!
I'm a school teacher and a good school teacher may make you work hard, but they shouldn't be bullying you, destroying your self esteem or making you walk on eggshells. Instead teachers should be doing the opposite; they should be building you up, helping you, and encouraging you along the way.
Thank you for pointing this out! That's correct!
@@alexismerrilldragonqueendid you understand that she was talking about teachers not students?
Hit too close to home. Raised in a cult, married into a cult. I feel sick.
Took me five decades but i walked away from it all.
100% mormonism.
Born and raised in the cult, left at 26… ten years later, discovered narcissism and realised my very own family was a cult, just on a smaller scale. Eventually broke free from them too. Finally have returned to my Self, reclaimed my power, and have found freedom and healing. This information needs to get out there!!!
In a healthy family individuating can be described as growing up and striking out more and more on your own. In a cultish based family it is called failure to launch or remaining stuck in that family biz for life to promote the family name with very little in between.
Bishop's daughter here. I started the leaving about 15 years ago. Hugs
I. So proud of you! That is truly quite an Accomplishment.
Hello. Do you know anything about Transformation center from Seattle ? Andrey Shapovalov, the lider there.
@@natalialobach5982anything from postsoviet should be treated with caution because the totalitarian abuse was in that societal system for decades, and as a result it is “in the blood”. Many
People need to recover after growing up there. Note in the video the main organizer of the cult was from Bulgaria.
Another red flag to add to the list - if you are shamed or called selfish for not sacrificing yourself for "the greater good".
...Mormonism
Covid & 💉..
I’ve been experienced this working for an outfit that operates skilled nursing facilities.
Totally
Absolutely. This should be number one. It’s rarely discussed.
i heard something here that i have never heard before, she said ''families with narcissistic dynamics are also cults''.
Relationships too, one on one cults
Yes, a family with all other member, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, mother, father, siblings, can also be an example of a cult. Go against the family, and your threatened. Often, it's a precursor for those who are then easily preyed upon for the kinds of cults they are speaking about. We live what we learn, until we know better, we cannot do better
As someone raised in the JW cult, I was unaware of how painful breaking free would be. This information helps so much
- *_/Thumbs up/_*
I am so sorry to hear that you had to endure this, but am happy to hear that you are able to cope, and seem to be healing now. I appreciate you!
Same
Thank you Dr. Lalich for saying that it’s perfectly fine to NOT forgive abusers. I’m sick and tired of the “wellness” industry pushing such toxic positivity. You don’t need to forgive an abuser to heal from your trauma and to thrive.
So true
True but forgiveness gives some survivers some sense of peace.
@@punyashloka4946 what is true forgiveness? For me it is just a construct- born out of christianity-
@@GinsWeydahl may be but all I am saying is some survivers find some solace in forgiveness.
Please don't leave out Scientology, it's incredibly harmful.
They're absolutely one of those cults that are being protected by their "religion" status. It's pretty gross.
@@nicolenul I love A-Aron! 😊
I declined a recruiter outreach from a company because their CEO is Scientologist according to many online employee reviews like Glassdoor.
😁
Thank you so much for expanding my vocabulary and my knowledge on this very complicated subject. I think many of us don't really know what we are dealing with since we are kept so busy with keeping everything together for our families.
Don't forget the jehovahs witnesses. Evil cult❗️
Born and raised in a cult called La Luz Del Mundo, aka The Light of the World. 4th generation. Left at 30 years, I'm currently 31. It's been the most difficult thing I've ever had to do in my life, including childbirth. Currently in my healing & deconstruction phase.
Dr. Janja and Steven Hassan have helped me so much through understanding how cults work.
I pray for you that every spell be broken off of your life in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. Cults can be very traumatizing but the Lord is able. I pray that he keeps you. God bless.
This information is so disturbing. As babies, we were trained to be an empath and a puppet. Our entire lives were covertly controlled as they took everything and anything they wanted from us. 63+ years later, they discard us like garbage; we are left with nothing; absolutely nothing. Even our hearts and souls are chewed up and spit out. Then we live; empty; trying to stay sane enough to pass the humanity tests of life. Nobody is coming to rescue us. We find the strength in videos like this one to keep pushing forward. Sending you all strength to do that; and my gratitude to Dr. R and Dr. J for this video. What an eye opener!! Thank you both!!
100% correct, same here!
I can certainly relate. I am 59 and still in therapy since 33. I grew up with an alcoholic, drug addicted family, I've been to Al-Anon for most of my life and I'm still not healed. I was the scapegoat and my self esteem suffers everyday. My mental health has been so badly damaged. 😢
Reminds me of the military. You are always told you are doing great for your country, but when you ask questions about the common goal, no one has answers or you get reprimanded. You work super long hours and we were told on boot camp, the goal is to break us down and build us back up. We got broken down, but I’m still building myself back up and have been out since 2014.
It would seem to be very similar. I'm so sorry.
I was raised LDS (Mormon) and I suffered a great amount while serving as a missionary. I have tried so many times to explain my experience of being manipulated and abused to my family (all LDS as well). I don't know if it will help get through to them, but this is giving me an insight to the language and framing to help explain it so much better. Thank you.
The most important that you have gained insight and freedom for your own life!
This conversation was amazing and SO needed! It seems like many cults are being uncovered and brought into the light~ I'm most excited about Christianity being called out and the darkness of this "religion" being put into the light.
I was love bombed in an evangelical church but then when I tried to get close to these people, build actual deep relationships, I kept hitting a wall. It was really frustrating. At this point I see the dynamic:
-love bomb
-make someone lonely and lost feel accepted and loved!
-don't let them close, don't become good friends with them, though
-that person then feels they have to try harder to be accepted, so they start observing people who ARE being accepted, looking for cues so that they too can be accepted.
Pray this way
Speak in tongues
Fast
Follow all the rules
Listen to the leaders/elders/pastors, do everything they say...
Attend every church function, etc...
Maybe THEN I'll be accepted?
It sucks you into this vortex. It's horrible.
Again, thank you for this discussion!
I just left a Christian rehab and I'm not an addict. I am homeless. It's like a freaking cult.
I had the Same Experience with a Christian church.
that is not from Jesus. so many churches fall into worldly systems instead of following Jesus.
I am sorry for your experience. Please read your bible. Please know that many churches are not like this. There area lot of false doctrines (of men) out there & Jesus warned us of that. Even the first century church had developed problems that the apostles had to address.
Find people online that you like. Today that is a very viable option. TH-cam has a lot of good people who talk about all kinds of topics in Christianity. May I suggest Mike Winger to start with? He does a lot of deep dives into scripture and answers questions every Friday. (I am not affiliated, I just find him to be very knowledgeable, willing to continue to learn, and a genuinely kind man). Please also know that no one is 100% on this so we all need to study for ourselves & keep in contact with God.
Jesus was crucified by such church leaders 2000 years ago for speaking the truth on their hypocrisy and narcissism, and the same people would emotionally crucify genuine believers again and again. Just follow Jesus with your heart. No need to waste time in those churches, definitely looking like cults these days. God is real. Lucifer was the first narcissist and that's how all the troubles started.
I am amazed at how much this mirrors my experience as a (now former) clergy person in a mainline church in the US. We did all of this in a lighter version.
I had a similar thought about my experience as a now former lay member of a mainstream church in Europe. Since it is usually done in more subtle ways, and you are not physically as restricted as you would be in those heavy-weight cults, the concern is dismissed. I wonder if one could draw a parallel: a mainstream church is more like a vulnerable narcissist, whereas a cult similar to those described in the podcast is more similar to a malignant rageful narcissist?
Which denomination?
Not that much lighter.
All of them.@@mombythesea2426
Thank you. I was in a cult and a narcassistic abusive relationship. Both. This is an incredible conversation.
Same here, I’ve been free for almost 2 months and see a huge change already
Same here.
Imagine having a mother who is a narcissist trying in every way to start a cult with her being the leader of course. Surreal.
Who has to imagine? Plenty of us lived it. Many do right now; and many will in the future.
Born and raised in a cult, experienced Incest from being an infant by both my parents. I experienced a lot of sexual & physical & emotional & mental & verbal violence and abuse all my life, recreated it over and over was raped and abused most of my life until I stopped repressing everything and started to understand I was raised in a cult. During covid when they opened the flights I just left everyone and everything, moved country, started new and now handling and healing from CPTSD . I was repressed most of my life and have a lot of trust issues and flashbacks.. very long healing journey...but - at least I'm out!!!!!
God Bless you.
My heart aches for you! I am amazed by your strength and persistence to not only survive, but to do so with such great insight. I am proud to “meet” you
@@lindadavis8534 Thank you so much for your kind words 🙏🏽💖 Nice to meet you too 🤗
@@KellenAdair🙏🏽💖
Sorry this happens to you. Hope you find some healing 🙏.
What I found insightful was to point out that there are political cults, not just religious cults. And it can be on a spectrum, some worse than others, and can be in any group, system, family, political organizations, on and on, not just religious cults. Very helpful. Thank you.
I see a strong connection between Mormonism and Trumpism.
I think it's important to emphasize how it's not a singular political party, but happens on both sides of the aisle. Dr. Lalich's personal story is an example of the extremism on the Democratic Party side at the time. Demonizing and silencing moderates is always problematic and dangerous.
@@patricianoel7782This is true.
However, Communal Narcissism is hyper prevalent in Left-Wing circles, as this is the current dominant culture.
There have been several studies on Left Wing Authoritarianism & Virtue-Signalling, and how these correlate with NPD, Cluster-B and Dark Triad traits (in some figures at 0.7!)
These traits will manifest wherever the virtue is in a dominant society or sub-group.
This phenomenon can be seen in many Puritanical denominations of religion.
As the Intersectional perspective is the current dominant quasi religion in the West, this is where the Communal Narcissists will typically pool.
Just ask Dr.R -- she lives and works in L.A.
I think it's important to note that the dominant perspective is just a vehicle for narcissists, and if we were largely Christian in the West, that would be the vehicle instead.
You'll note the outrage, rallying, gaslighting, nagging, shame, guilt, pressure, gossiping and conformist tactics of these types.
Pluralism is unheard of, as it's a race for purity.
The best way to apply the label of a dangerous high control ideology, or cult, is to be able to see if the shoe fits. It doesn't matter what the group is supposedly about, or if it is even about anything in particular at all...
...But instead it's more about the dynamics, especially control dynamics, and patterns and being able to conceptually match those to the control patterns of a dangerous high control group.
A key indicator of the use of cultic mind control undue influence is how they talk about it, they're use of language.
In Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, Lifton speaks of "Milieu Control", "Loaded Language", and "The Demand for Purity"... Which basically amounts to controlling what people think by manipulating and controlling the conversation around things and include using tactics such as "Splitting" and loaded comments. (Oftentimes narcissists use similar conversational tools to get their way. Btw, dangerous high control groups are a breeding ground for narcissistic attitudes and emotions, often times unconsciously. (But of course isn't that where cultic pseudo personality overlays develop? From the harm in microtraumas of the interactions and dynamics?)
😅 (Long rant coming to an end😂)
Cults, can develop just about anywhere either intentionally or not intentionally... It's being able to recognize the control patterns and dynamics which can help people avoid from joining in with the social psychological mob mentality without being aware of it.
Very interesting episode as expected Dr Ramani . Cuban people have been living in a massive cult for 64 years . Many families have been destroyed on behalf of the “ Revolution “. Each point mentioned in this interview resonated so much with what have gone through all this years.
This is very familiar. I was in a different Marxist cult. It’s hard to explain that the cult was political. People assume cults are spiritual or religious. I left the cult 45 years ago and continued my involvement with the labor movement but, in many ways my ability to work effectively was damaged by my cult experience. I like to think I recovered from the cult experience but sometimes I fall apart in political work and I can’t explain why. I recruited friends and family to the cult. Some of them still hate me decades later. In my case, as a teenager, I left a narcissistic family and went straight into the cult.
My healing from a cult started with recognizing the narcissism. It took me a year after leaving to realize it’s a cult (Lisa Williams community). She financial and sexually abuses students. She’s incredibly charming. It’s scary.
They have to be charming. It's an essential component of the grappling hooks they stick in you to twist the knife in later. "Look, I got some honey on a stick! Look, it comes with all these charming smiles... Now just point to your heart and I'll stick this knife in you, and keep twisting it and twisting it until you're NOTHING and I have your soul." Something like that.
*_Scientology - a complete description._*
This was an amazing interview. Extremely informative.
I woke up and checked Spotify this morning and was SO excited to see Dr. Janja Lalich as your guest! Her book Take Back Your Life helped me a lot after emerging from a job with a narcissistic boss and not receiving any real-world help or validation from my mental health team or therapist. The metaphor of the "shelf" is incredibly useful when dealing with "death by a thousand cuts" situations as Dr. Ramani so aptly puts it. Thank you so much for arranging this interview! ❤⭐
Such an important and fascinating episode. Two brilliant women doing life-changing work for so many. Thank you 🙏🏻
I grew up in a family cult that followed IBLP, dobson teachings but in a secluded hermit way. They had the books but we had very little contact with the outside world. It was on a 40 acre farm in the mountains of Oregon miles from any other settlement. There was no electricity or phones . Running water wasn't available until I was about 12, even then that was just pumped from a stagnant pond.We drank that water unfiltered with no chlorine or attempt at making it safe. The emotional, physical and sexual abuse was constant. My father was our central narcissist . I have struggled in my life to maintain healthy relationships, I have fallen into a pattern of attaching to narcissistic males. I didn't realize this until recently. I have worked my way through the different types of narcissistic styles each time thinking "he is so different from who I fell for before" but later finding myself in the same type of toxic abusive patterns. In hindsight I've been with a malignant, grandiose, and 2 covert... I am now at this time trying to free myself from a covert. It's hard. I moved away with him and am secluded, my work dried up with the pandemic and move. I'm 45 with no education and I feel frozen as to how to rebuild .
I'm glad I could write this out. It feels good to tell someone and no-one.
I just watched Shiny Happy People documentary! I had never heard of the group until I watched it. I’m a Mormon…on my way out after 65 years! 😮I hope for your progress as you press on in life, friend.
@patricianoel7782 thank you. I hope your journey out of mormonism is fulfilling and positive. A good book that helped me was "Women Beyond Belief " by Karen Garst
@@aubraehersel7720 🙏 Thanks. I read “Faith After Doubt” by Brian McLaren. So helpful!! I recommend it to everyone.
Just started this episode, so excited you are interviewing Dr. Janja. Born into a small cult my father started and led. And lifelong struggle to even realize what is going on and why I've had a string of terrible relationships, churches, etc. Still trying to find what would be best to help undo and heal from all the decades of compounded abuse. Looking forward to this convo. Thank you for all you do
I grew up Christian and went through the same issues and trying to figure out why. Now I’m more spiritual and go to church if I feel like it. Otherwise, I don’t.
Excited to see Dr Ramani interview Dr Lalich! Listening to this as I recover from two past narcissistic relationships and a Jehovah’s Witness upbringing
Omg, this is one of the best interviews!! So happy this channel is being professionally managed!
I adore Dr Janja! She is so well spoken and has a way of conveying difficult to understand concepts so well.
I am going to need to watch this over and over to get all the juice out of it. So much great information for survivors, loved ones, and therapists.
Cults and narcissism are closely tied, cult leaders are always narcissists and use the same tactics in controlling people who fall into their web. Cults are basically narcissism scaled up and the flying monkey aspect is amplified because there are more of them.
Agreed, the family with a narc parent/parents is a mini cult.
The protestant church in Bulgaria was a cult when I was a teenager 20 years ago. Lovebombing and then discard when you didn't follow blindly. The pastor, he called himself an apostle, was incredibly charismatic but lived in US with his American wife, so he came like an angel from the skies from time to time. Someone said he used to be an actor and it all made sense that he was acting the whole time.
I've been had...it's humiliating, embarrassment, shameful. I didn't see it coming, especially from people whom I grew up with in the same house. I truly appreciate and enjoyed this conversation as painful as the truth may be. Thank you both.
Right there with you.
Their reveals didn't come out until after the fact/$. ... Such Haters!
Great interview. Dr. Lalich just described Jehovah's Witnesses perfectly.
The only difference between a cult and religion is the number of members who blindly follow .
She described All religion and trinity.
@@christinelozier3511You clearly weren't listening.Cults have nothing to to with size.Typical ignorant comment from someone who has never been in a cult or studied them
QUESTION: Dr. Ramani (and her wonderful staff!),
I was in Synanon, the drug program/cult, for 9+ years (age 17 to 26). I heard you say on Dr. Chatterjee's channel that there is an overlap of 60% with addiction and narcissism. Are 60% of narcissists addicts or are 60% of addicts narcissists? Not that it matters... lol! But there were soooo many narcissists in Synanon. Not just the founder but the property directors, the sales people (omg the sales team... what a hot bed of narcissism!). Much more than 15% of the people in Synanon were narcissists. There were the cruel malignant menacing and the vapid mild and everything in between!
Thank you so much for this video! Thank you to Dr. Janja for your work! Such a great video!!!
Critical thinking is difficult for majority of people. So many traps out there. Great show!
Been waiting for Dr. R to discuss the crossovers and similarities brown Narc abuse and Cults. This does not disappoint! So Grateful!!!!! Encore!
When my psychopath therapist was asked questions he would say “Oh you have trust issues. This is just talk therapy. And you have a problem with the therapy process and are resistant to doing the work.”
Exactly the same- in Norway a cult-
@@GinsWeydahl so easy for a therapist to do this, even their training is like a guide on doing it, just take it a step further and they have so much power over you..
@@claireh.7605 It was grooming- hypnoses- two month became 6, 5 year. This was psycoanalytic- I had no idea what I was into, he used me as an object and a "case" study where he pretend I was his Sick patient - then he became almost a cult leader with his own "scool " . Sponsored by the Norwegian State - who do not have a clue- He has his brother i law and a few other people who are his true servants.
My uncle has all those tendencies
Loyalty is a one way, don’t dare express any different because you instantly become the enemy and the belittling begins
You almost have to give up your autonomy
😬 yikes
Thank you to both ❤
Could you do talk on Narcissistic Motivational Speakers/Coaches and their coaching programs? I had an experience with one and now I've come to believe that much of what went on resembled a cult.
I had to leave my family cult and it has been very damaging. They have intentionally ruined my life in anyway they could possibly think of because i stood up for myself. This information is very appreciated thank you.
I'm looking for a good charity because my daughter is less than deserving and making my grandsons the same way. It's very sad!
Yes, they ruin your life.
I feel the same way.
Glad you're doing what you must, too. 👍
The susceptibility to be drawn into a cult is an unhealthy family background. Some cult members do not have to be manipulated very much to join because they are already searching for it due to their particular needs and developmental environment. A cult does not have to be a group. You could be part of a cult of only two people where one person is dominant and controlling. The most common version of this is typically in the news once a week. It is commonly the story of a woman who decides to leave her domineering, abusive boyfriend/husband, which in his thinking is the ultimate unforgivable offense and is deserving of severe punishment or death.
When I was 10 (family -both parents had narcissistic tendencies), I had heard enough times that mercury was poison. For months, I kept breaking thermometer after thermometer and collecting mercury drops from each one into a vial. One day the right time came and I did drink the whole thing. All to just finally put an end to the emotional pain I was feeling. I was 10…what 10 year old is suicidal and blames themselves for feeling that way? Me! All because of the abuse/neglect/confusion/disregulation at home. I was always the black sheep and never fit in with them so the moment I found help I did intense in-patient therapy followed by years of CBT. I have finally put an end to all connection to my birth family but my recovery will be endless. Yes, I carry external consequences I didn’t ask for but I only have this life and I choose kindness and empathy above all. For anyone who can’t physically leave but wants to do the work, just do it if you find the resources! You’ll learn to detach and you’ll have made tons of progress by the time you can finally put physical distance! You got this 💪
Great interview. I was born into a cult and was compelled to obey every facet of it until I was 16. That said it is one thing to get the person out of a cult and a whole different matter as to getting the cult out of the person. I'm 63 now and sometimes it is as if I never got away from it at all.
After listening to the interview I found myself wishing that there would have been some focus on what kind of people are drawn to a cult. As an example both of my parents had, in my opinion, cptsd and joined a cult and never left. My mom 47 years until her passing, and my father 63 years and still a member. The use of fear and implicit threat of being excommunicated when brought up during the interview spoke volumes to me.
I read a good book about cultism .”The B.I.T.E. Model” by Steven Hassen. Tells how to recognize if you are part of a cult. He also did a podcast on Mormon Stories.
He has a channel on TH-cam too.
youtube.com/@FreedomofMindResourceCenter?si=FAxVOJ7RxmOkQwkh
Excellent show doc!!!! Loved Dr. Janja!!! She's a rock star cult fighter!!! Loved how the cult members took down the cult leader and desolved it. That must have had therapeutic value in itself, wrestling some power back after having been oppressed and striped of power for so long.
This is such a wonderful chat. The story where the cult said 'well you're not going to the funeral" shocked me and almost baffles me how the cult exhibits zero empathy where you'd think they'd allow it to further keep the toxic relationship to continue rather this 'power' move was confusing, but I'm glad it added to the wake up call for doctor yanya. Plus also them making her mother work is completely unbelievable how abusive that was, poor doctor yanya being so crushed to not at the time recognize and have the strength to push back😢
Yes, the 2 things you mentioned, (Mom working) are totally insane!
...or to put it another way..."Dr Lalich exposes the heart of narcissism; and the frightening way that cults use narcissistic tactics to control their members."
Its not just the religious and political institutions, but regular families act like cult too sometimes.
Thank you Dr Ramani. This is a special episode for me. It was your TH-cam channel that woke me up to Narcissists around me 25 years ago that Fair-Gamed me. I woke up, and within days I found they were key cult-recruiters here in the UK for "Dr" Tony Quinn's EDUCO. I then watched The Vow, that Dr. Lalich was involved in, and her work (including the Bounded Choice model) has informed me greatly. I have friends who know Dr. Lalich and she is so helpful to those in distress. To see this episode with both of you is an absolute DELIGHT! THANK YOU DR. RAMANI!
Thank you both. Best crossover ever.
Thank you both for this important and critical work, your insights, and your humanity!. I am now a thriving survivor (no more victim mentality, there are many who have gone through this!), of an ex-spouse enmeshed with his malignant narcissistic cult leader mother/sister/clan, who is precisely described to a T, by both Dr. Ramani and Dr . Lalich. I was talking with my 10-year-old about narcissism, trying to equip her with discernment and the courage to speak up and confront these grown-up 'wounded children/bullies', whose 4th-grade teacher began shaming and humiliating her in front of the class for months. My ex-MIL, who is, unfortunately, my daughter's grandmother and caretaker while in her dad's custody time, is also a retired 4th-grade teacher. I am a college professor of 22 years and have crossed paths with many grade school teachers who uncannily display many narcissistic characteristics and behaviors toward children. Many abuse children emotionally and psychologically, exploiting them for a sense of power over the helpless. Most admins never see this happening. I have had others in the administration of K-12 make the same observations. My ex-MIL was a 4th-grade teacher/malignant narcissist who controls her family of adult middle-aged children in 9/10 of the ways Dr. Lalich describes, like a cult, and she is the cult leader. For nearly a decade, I was ostracized and abused because I refused to comply with her tribal abuse and refused to worship her depravity. After being bullied by both my in-laws and moreso my ex-spouse, who would 'gang' up on me to try to enforce my conformity, my MIL secretly colluded with my ex, and her son, and paid for an attorney and bought my ex-spouse, her golden child, a house so he could ambush me and leave me. He walked away overnight and completely abandoned me and my 6-year-old 100% financially, emotionally, etc. The entire family had already begun the smear campaign and told egregious lies about me to an entire community. Within a few months, I relocated to a nearby town. There was so much more that happened and after 4 years of recovery, I turned the corner last year and now count my blessings every day! To all those out there, it is extremely difficult to heal, but much less so to stay trapped in the evil of these people. I immediately was given the strength to go NO CONTACT with her/him (he is her surrogate spouse) and the flying monkeys/clan/cult. I have never spoken to them since. The hardest part now is protecting my daughter as with our 50% shared custody, she is vulnerable. She despises my ex-MIL, and she is her only blood grandchild (they 'adopt' many victims in their 'family' culty;, and endures constant and chronic psychological abuse while in her care. Although to others, they wear a cloak of a wholesome family, there are may dark skeletons in the family closet. I am doing everything I know to do to equip my daughter, and the courts/legal system does not readily recognize this type of insidious abuse. Thankfully, my young daughter is becoming very discerning, and courageous!!! .....Dr. Ramani, your video and teachings have literally helped me to heal. Bless you, both for all of your work and love toward your fellow humans!!!
i thought i would never get out of the cult of religion. having grown up in the fundamentalist independant baptist church. then getting married to a narcesist and going to the southern babptist church. and eventually going to the apostolic united pentecostal church.
religious cults destroyed me and i almosted ended my life. it took me over a year to be able to go out in public by myself.
i am 51 now and doing a bit better. but i still have terrible anxiety and bouts of depression.
it doesn't help that i recently realized i aslo have been autistic and have adhd my whole life to go along with my cptsd.
my mother was also my first bully.
i do not know if i will ever recover from this life.
Same here - I totally understand.
I love Janja Lalich... I hope her book Take Back Your Life comes back...used copies on Amazon are currently over a$100... Thank you for having her as a guest!
I am so glad to finally see this issue being discussed with 2 major experts in their fields. What is more upsetting is when cults, sects and other groups hide behind and hijack mainstream religious teachings just to reinforce their control - and when people in that cult 'wake up' ( not woke....Lord Help us) they struggle to distinguish religious teachings away from the cult that they were a part of, and then enter another stage of almost 'hating religion', when the cult has *Nothing* to do with true religious/spiritual teachings, but due to that individual's or group's own twisted and disturbed internal state of being - they just want to drag down as many people as they can with them!
I really hope there is a support programme where religious groups can actually help adherents of any given faith, heal and recover from cults parading as mainstream religions, but without letting go of their own beliefs.
I'm someone who inadvertently joined a cult and ultimately left Christianity altogether. I was physically attacked, and the cult turned its back on me. I moved away and joined a wonderful church where the pastor saved my life twice. Then I was forced to leave that area. Having to sit helpless while my niece dropped out of high school to join a cult is what killed it for me.
Anyone with half a brain could see she should have been able to live with me and attend the same church I did. Plus, there's the matter of the Holocaust.
That's why I left Christianity. I have since become a Buddhist / atheist.
@AuroraBoarder1 Hello. I'm sorry to learn of what you went through. I can only imagine how difficult or soul wrenching' it must have been, and then see in real time the pain of seeing your niece go through a similar experience again.
I hope you have found some sort of justice for what they did, and healing and recovery - as it can take a good while to work through such an experience. No rush with that.
And for your religious choices and beliefs, that's entirely up to you, and not for anyone to question or judge ( even though people...being people..... will do that).
I just hope that more of us can see through these 'cults' and see that what they claim to present or stand for is an absolute twisting and subversion of religion/spirituality - even if it means, ( as I have done for some time now which Dr. Ramani also describes as part of the wider 'soul distancing' approach) that we practice our faith/belief privately so as to protect ourselves from being potentially targeted/manipulated by such groups pretending to be either Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist or any other established belief system. I live in London, UK and I can not describe in enough detail the countless and very dangerous ideological groups that call this city home.
I wait every time for these episodes to come out. Looking forward to it...
Dr Janja’s story is my story. I am astounded at how eerily the same it is.
Omg, my experience in the ICOC was so similar. 😢 It's so hard realizing what actually happened to you. This interview is amazing and so healing and helpful.
My daughter is involved in this thru college. May I ask what it was that pulled you away from it ?? I am heartbroken and desperate. So glad you left ❤️
@@ccz5216 I'm so so sorry. Unfortunately I left after 21 years 😭. I was fully indoctrinated. Continue to be part of their life as much as you possibly can. Continue to be an unconditional source of support and love so that they have a soft place to fall when they need to. Have you tried sending them videos from people left ICOC?
@@ccz5216icoc is know to be active on college campuses. Several schools have banned them.
Dr. Ramani, you ask the best questions!! ❤ thank you for all you.
You’re helping me get over a heartbreak.
My family was overly religious and it was very rediculous I couldn’t wear a tank top in the summer or wear shorts couldn’t attend school dances, Halloween etc. etc. I was told I couldn’t hang out with my friends they wanted me to hang out with only Baptist people.
Beautiful Lady Dr. Janja surviving an abusive toxic " revolution" , recognizing the Real problem , then using her painful experiences and past to help others recognize and avoid similar systems
being in an MLM is like being in a cult
Identical. The structure of Trump's, in fact.
Describes my life until age 57 with narc mother - the effects? Unspeakable -
OMG... Yes to the idea that the Bounded Choice follows you out of the cult. Absolutely!!
What a wonderful interview. I really think these interviews about narcissism functioning in groups is supremely important. Don''t stop broadcasting these talks!!
Fascinating. So glad for this podcast
There are moments of this that make me question if being in the military is almost like being in a cult? The proccess of what it is to break down a person to be able to fight, for the cause, feels like this cold be similar...
My therpist explained just my family as a cult. I was a bit taken aback by her saying that. But when its laid out like this its... quite shocking to realise that it was really the same thing. Ive been with my rherapist for one year, ive only relaised this now clearly.
At the Project I volunteered for, it was repeatedly mentioned there were policies and insurance. However I was never shown copies of these policies or the documentation for the insurance (red flag).
Be careful of organisations that request you to sign documents saying you have had training especially in relation to health and safety before that training is completed (red flag).
This was an interesting discussion. Thank you both.
Consequences for leaving !!! Spiritual Death 🥺😪😔💔
This is the best show I have ever seen. Thankyou please make more shows on cults thankyou. I wasn’t aware that there was so much control and they taught me my body is dirty and sinful and I should cover up when I wear a top. I had to wear my sleeves long or sleeves to my elbows no tea shirts.
Def agree that what should be scrutinized is the cult & it's leader. I do appreciate your story and learning that there are many different kinds cults (financial, yoga, dogs, religion, crime, politics, study groups, social clubs, labor, sex, etc. wow!) And the "fronts" that are the staging area for recruiting.
Loved Dr Janja's books and need more of the healing from what seems like might be what her non profit does. Thank you for this. And for both your time looking into this. I've had so many relationships with narcissistic types, and been in several cultic groups, after being born into the one my father started and led, it's hard not to feel like they are everywhere and that you'll never really belong anywhere if you stand your ground and live in your own integrity. But I definitely can't live under anyone's thumb or abuse any more. And especially thank you for drawing attention to how similar the individual is to the group dynamic, as I've been seeing those parallels for a while and it's nice to know I'm not making it up or just thinking that cuz I've been part of both too many times.
Thank you for this talk. I’m too untrusting to join anything but can entertain narcissists if not careful.
You don't necessarily have to formally "join" anything, per se. Patterns of undue influence just develop either intentionally or unintentionally. That's why there's talk about Trump and all the Q-anons and Proud Boys and other free floaters being part of the cult of Trump.
Narcs, cults and scams....
They're everywhere.
It may be very hard to pick up on such influence, since many of the facets you discuss are woven into the fabric of society. Conventional churches, army, social institutions also use many of these tactics to ensure conformity, yet they aren't malicious cults.
Oh my goodness, this is so good, thank you!
Another aspect that could be interesting to explore is the interdependency of individual and group abuse situations.
My mother, who had been abused in childhood, went on to marry my father, a vulnerable narcissist, and in her 50s joined a religious group (she is in her 70s now). It is not officially a cult (being a part of a mainstream religion) but operates like one. Now he 'generously' lets her participate (so she has an outlet and doesn't bother him), though he is not religious himself, while they encourage her to be a 'good wife' and serve him. The two sides basically reinforce each other, even if at the core they despise each other (he despises them as not intellectual enough, and they despise him as a 'sinner who needs to see the light'). Nevertheless, they serve each other alright.
Dr Ramani’s face reactions are everything that need to be said about this abuse.
This is a wonderful discussion!! My ex h narcissist was a pastor, and he turned the church into a cult. I'm so sorry for Dr Lalich's experience especially re her mother! Thank you for sharing this! This is all so important to understand and share.
I went to an OOM YUNG DOE Karate cult like business where they charmed me, told me to do karate seven days a week and wanted me to come do free work renovating their studio for them. The instructors and owners had this dazed look on their faces.
My two favorite experts on the same podcast!!!! Huge fan of both your work ❤
Just had to pause after hearing that heartbreaking story of the doctor’s mother’s passing - this brought me close to tears this is so sad and horrible, sums up cults so perfectly IMO, lost all connection to humanity and compassion, totally brainwashed by a narcissistic leader.
all relationships are cults the only question is whether they're beneficent or malignant. a healthy cult is based on freedom and consent, not manipulation and control.
Excellent and educational interview. Thank you for sharing this for public awareness and mental health support.
You are always welcome
This was the best episode I have listened to yet. Thank you so much!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This gave me chills… I left a hyper charismatic church and deconstructed a lot of beliefs. Then later joined a leftist Marxist group for a short time because they helped homeless- and I left within a few months bc of things mentioned in this video. I left feeling like it was cultish but couldn’t put my finger on it. Because I’ve learned about abuse, that’s why I didn’t stay long. I’ve looked this video up because I’m noticing a pattern in some groups/ communities I get drawn to which are cult like- but I never went into depth of what cults are. Maybe it’s a western world type of thinking as well but I am not sure. I just know when I joined a group chat with people from the eastern territories, this group had a different mentality about community. And that’s what made it more clear to me that there’s something I need to learn and unlearn in my own thinking patterns.
This is one I'll relisten to several times. As her work is so important and your interview, tho it does leave me wanting so much more, hits on so many nuances, especially if you read between the lines of what's being directly asked abs answered.
Thank you for providing these critical educational services here on TH-cam.
💓🌊🌊😇🌊🌊💓. Love to all
Nothing is more torturing than having survived growing up in a psychopath-controlled environment, to now watch and fail to free and save someone we love who is due to his own state uncapable of being freed himself! Studying everything I can in order to succeed. So hard! The toll it has on us to see loved ones struggling and their light and persona diminishing away and giving up to the narcissisism of the leader is psychological torture. I want us all to have support as well because it can be equally if not more tortuous, especially when the leader violates our own relationship with the targeted victim
Wow...this is so true about my upbringing...its trauma bonding....no wonder the rate of suicide for women here in this country is so high....the number of people that 'trafficked' their children into institutions due to systems of influence and control (guilt etc))...the malignant shame used as a device to ensure compliance...🤢🤮
Finding out an estranged loved one has been indoctrinated into a cult of cruelty is a shock that can't be descriibed in words.
I know that's the truth!
My healing keeps slipping, unfortunately.
Fabulous interview .. covered so much ground and all the important issues surrounding this topic. Dr Janja is a living legend!
Would Seventh day Adventism be considered a cult? You are gaslighted, diminished and put aside when you find the courage to walk away, worse if you should dare to marry someone outside the cult.
its a mental, emotional, spiritual cage... what they doing , is break your spirit: your will, your emotions...they break your wings and open the cage and say you are free to go when ever you want, but you CAN´T - emotional and spiritual/ezoteric attachment and bondage
Our worldstage is being led by "cult" at the moment...
🦋🦋🦋🕊
Ain't that the truth
This channel definitely needs more publicity - very important deep information that is greatly needed in
society! I’m surprised so little amount of subscriptions yet!
I am sorry for you and your mom😢 they suck. I was caught in one too ,end with major breakdown and loss of all friends and family and my mom passed. I was threaten by the pastor.. I still pray there's a caring creator ,if not we're in hell. Getting help is near impossible . I am at present being shunned by the church. I never would have believed we today would be shunned,crazy.
I would say another draw to a cult is belonging
And wanting to help.
"Ask not; what your cult can do for you,ask what you can do for your cult" sounds familiar.
It's a dead by a thousand swords coming out. ☘️
Superb talk. Thank you both for sharing.
Hi from philippines ..im speechless about cult specially religious cult..you feel guilty when u go out...i want to say thank u for this podcast..be Blessed
Different aspect on this, for what it's worth, being a Gen Xer, I am somewhat astonished and alarmed at the newest aspect of coercive control with the generation younger then me and their acceptance and embrace of conspiracy theories! I had a close friend who would expound about governmental, religious, and capitalist "conspiracy theories" which I just tended to write off. Then, I had the opportunity to talk with many others in his same age group 20-35, and was god-smacked to hear the same kind of rhetoric! When I asked them what proof they had for, whatever, they would look at me like I was from Mars and direct me to some TH-cam vid or documentary they had seen, as if that were verifiable proof of what they believed! It's quite honestly been frightening and sad to me! As the baby boomer generation may have been susceptible to a utopia POV, the younger generation seems to be susceptible to a conspiracy and perception of ominous and intentional evil surrounding them!
😮
Great interview and great insight. The story about her mother broke my heart. I can't help but think they did something to her.