Interesting to see the suspended metal particles picked up by the magnet. My philosophy on the old starting engine is that I will take the time and expense to change the 1 qt. of oil every few starts and do all I can to prolong starting engine life. Thanks for another informative video👍🏼
@@squatch253 Your comments about non-detergent and detergent oil are spot on. Oil company advertising (mostly past but some present too) is responsible for most of the confusion about types of oil. Of course, today, "synthetics" rule the roost. The days of engines without filters are gone for the most part and non-detergent oil is getting to be difficult to find. You will probably be getting arguments about paraffin based oils vs. asphalt based oils. Just something else to argue about. Unless you have a 50 year old unopened can of Oilzum or Pennzoil in your cabinet, you don't have any paraffin based oil. Again, thanks for your unbiased and correct information on oil applications!
One tip I have heard for engines with no filter is to magnetise the dipstick. Then every time you check the oil, you wipe the dipstick removing the iron particles that have stuck to it.
Your PhD in Caterpillar products is warranted and appropriate. Your expertise in CAT is well known and acknowledged by everyone except the Caterpillar Corporation. You have my endorsement and appreciation for your hard work and dedication to the heavy beasts you rebuild, service and enjoy. All the best to you Toby keep up the excellent work even though you are unsupported by the product you serve!!
75 PSI amounts to 5:1 compression, which in the 1930's was pretty standard even on fancier automobiles. The gasoline then available for automobiles wouldn't tolerate anything higher. It wasn't until after World War II when refineries that had been specially constructed or adapted to produce 100-octane aviation fuel for the military started producing higher-octane fuel for the civilian market.
5:1? There is nothing "standard" about compression ratio. Compression is a function of combustion chamber volume. Oh, and by the way, tetraeythel lead was "the" fuel additive octane adder, developed in the "1920's" to allow higher compression engines to be built! The above comment speaks to the problem our country is having these days. Facts don't mean shit any more. Sad!
once the break in is done, run synthetic. The reduced friction it provides, makes a vast difference, provided oil change intervals are kept the same.(dont extend them). I have hundreds of hours on small engines that run like new, with no appreciable wear. Same is true right up to heavy truck engines that cover 2 million km's, 100% full loaded on 65 ton B-doubles.
I appreciate your approach to maintaining older equipment! Thank you for taking the time to explain what you do and your reasoning behind what you do for maintaining antiques!
Frankly I would like to see more engine oil talk. What was right for the old machinery is not the same as today. I worked on a Dutz Air cooled (diesel) engine and we estimated it had 8-20,000 hours and going good. Those engines had a strainer not a filter and the oil change was 50 hours. Sometimes it got changed and sometimes not (out in the Philippines at Clark and the military maint people they paid to maintain it were conscientious to totally slack) . That was with a fairly modern oil (80s era)
Good oil discussion! I wouldn't go putting detergent oil in a well-used pony motor though; it will likely have that build up of sludge and once there that's better left alone until rebuild.
Wow, that's pretty cool. I still can't get over just how black that oil is after such a short run time. Your explanation makes a lot of sense though, thank you. Oh, and I see what you meant in a video a long time ago, TH-cam really does pick a thumbnail with your mouth open! LOL
For people without your knowledge of how an old engine is manufactured is priceless, folk who purchase an old machine just for the fun of having one and occasionally run at home or at shows should be guided by your advice. The older dozers we had in our felling business were often on sold to enthusiasts and our mechanic would go into such detail to the buyer on how to best lubricate the running components for best continued life. Great tutorial.
What helps is the explanation of why you made these choices and how it works for the engines you run and what happens with the oil and procedure you use. This is not normal advice of "Use this oil, it's the best" but an set of reasons for your choices of what and why so we (the common people) can apply your experience and expertise to our own situation. The best advice helps me make my own decisions! Thanks! Also, WOW that's a lot of iron in that oil for less than an hour of use.
I remember when I was mechanicing… I rebuilt a Rabbit diesel engine. Synthetic oils has just come out, and I put that in the engine 😵💫. You want to talk about an oil disaster!!! Of course (we didn’t know it then) the rings wouldn’t seat. I had to strip that thing back down and reclean everything. Fortunately we learned quick and put in a mineral oil break in oil for the second go. That critter blew blue smoke you couldn’t see through on that synthetic! Fortunately we had the hose off that would have dumped that back into the intake (we always disconnected it until initial break in was done to discourage run away). The oil didn’t have anti-wear additives (knew better than that!) but still was too slick to let the rings seat.
Nice job on that carb , have never heard a pony run that rock steady . My uncle had an old caterpillar that he used clearing lots and his pony never ran like that 👍👍🇺🇸
Very good explanation on detergent vs. Non-detergent motor oil. I agree with a quote you've made on here before. More engines have been ruined by not having enough (or sometimes any) oil than have been ruined by the quote on quote "wrong" oil.
Well you're very informative again ! My dad always told me to put non-detergent oil in lawnmower engine but I never knew why & I didn't know the difference, just did it . so you taught this old dog a new trick .
I've learned something today! An interest thought process on the detergent vs non-detergent oils. There is a time and application consideration for things. I like the fuzzy doughnut comparison. Great video
Great job and video @Squatch253. I think the main take away is to service your stuff!! I had a trade school teacher who would always say, "Any oil, especially clean oil, is better than no oil".
Very good method to your madness squatch, at this point you have proven yourself and if you told me to run vegetable oil in my machine I probably would ha ha. Thanks for another informative video, cheers.
Back in 1980 I tore down a locked up 390 Ford engine and did a rebuild on it for my brother. It used a quart of oil in its first 500 miles and gradually decreased its oil consumption during the first 6000 miles. He was all upset about his fresh rebuilt engine using oil until I explained to him that it would need to be driven enough to get through its break in period. After the second oil change it would go 6000 miles and only be a little below the full mark.
Excellent video you are absolutely right about the oils. I have broken in big diesel engines with non detergent motor oil. I have also used non detergent motor oil as a flushing agent in really dirty engines before I take the oil pan off it does a good job of scrubbing the sludge out I bought a G705 mm diesel tractor years ago the oil was so thick and nasty it would not drip off of the dipstick in 90 degrees weather so I flushed it a few times and the oil started staying clean. Every type of oil has it's place depending on the purpose. Keep up the great videos Toby
I almost asked on the first start video if you were going to perform an early oil change, I now know without even asking. The way I look at it, oil is cheap, rebuilds are expensive. I’m also a fan of running detergent oils, more for the additive package than the detergent/suspension capabilities. ND oils usually have a weaker additive package from a anti-wear/extreme pressure protection. However, like you said, everyone has an opinion (that is always the correct one) on which is better. On that note, I’m extremely cute see what the oil analysis says on Kyle’s RD-4 engine and back end, it’s a look back in time to see what they were using in the 1970s! Cheers!!!
Thanks for confirming my approach to oil in the starting engine. After blowing up a connecting rod in my '49 D4 shortly after i got it I've been treating it's replacement with an oil change every time the oil gets the slightest bit dark. Your video series is encouraging me to do a rebuild of my original starting engine which has been sitting under the bench lo these many years. Thanks.....F
Thank you Toby for the insight, there was some valuable info in this video for me. I can't comment much on the oils cause I use very different brands to what your using. So I don't wanna start a fight here. However I will say this people do make mistakes when the break in diesel engines. Main mistake I have seen is when people break in the engine and don't follow the factory recommendations. This is when things get messy and you get engines that spit out oil or the rings don't wear in correct. Ask me how I know :D
We run-in new and resurfaced aircraft cylinders with mineral oil (non-ashless-dispersant) for this very reason. The rings wear the hone surface down for compression and leave just enough surface to hold oil. Aircraft engines in the old days didn't even have filters, just screens! 2 hours first run, 10 hours next change, then 20 and usually by then, we switch to ashless dispersant oil.
A great explanation of break in and what happens. As for engine oil, yeah, I avoid that conversation/argument myself. Your explanation of detergent vs non detergent was excellent. Thanks.
@@squatch253 I still work in the industry as a tech trainer for a manufacturer. Oil technology is mind blowing really. In my opinion, your explanation of detergent vs non detergent was spot on. Ask yourself, what do need the oil to do? Make your selection.
@@squatch253 Your explanations of why to use what type of oil makes sense here to this scientist. Full synthetic oils have come a long way and in modern engines with tight tolerances a full synthetic makes perfect sense due to materials and alloys used in modern engines. In the old style engines, they were designed for the conventional oils and those I have seen improvements on as well. We would be appalled at the quality of 1930's era oil in today's knowledge. For break in the non detergent oils make sense. But after break in on a filtered engine, would synthetics in your opinion be a good choice to keep a rebuilt engine viable as long as required oil changes to flush out contamination and restore viscosity due to air oxidation and heat leading to oil breakdown be permissible? On a non filtered engine, they do require frequent oil changes as there is no other way to remove contamination. I am loving your explanations.
Looking at a D2 to possibly buy. Pros. 15 miles from home. Well maintained. Unaltered (not a bunch of home made repairs and add ons) Cons. Doesn’t run. Possible cracked block. Has been sitting for 20 years. Need advice on parts availability and sources. I don’t know how to communicate with you other than the comments section. You probably don’t have time for individual responses. Thanks, Peter
@@squatch253 Thanks for your informative reply. I did watch your video on assessing a D2 for possible purchase. It just fortified my interest in getting a D2. If it turns out to be too costly to repair, is parting out an option? My background is, former Detroit diesel technician worked on the 12V 149s down to the 53s. Former Mercedes Benz diesel tech. Retired Toyota master tech. Have a shop with lathe and milling machine, gas, arc, and mig. Bought my first car when I was 13. Restored cars, but tired of bodywork, wiring, glass work, upholstery, painting, etc. Looking for something purely mechanical. Never worked on a Cat, but the D2 fits the bill. Thanks Peter
Can’t beat that logic !! Couldn’t get over the colour of that oil …. ! Prevention is better than cure ! The oils these days are 100 times better than in the day ! And your rebuild was so precise - it will see us all out ..!
Excellent explanation. I hope to get to the upcoming meet on Friday. I have a appointment in the cities on thurs afternoon, and trying to talk the wife into going there then to Eau Claire.
I know people get feisty about oils and types and changes etc everyone has their own ideas and preferences I don’t judge anyone on their choices, but I do find it interesting to know what other people do, Keep up the great work and thanks for bringing us along for the ride… Will I ever own one of these beautiful beasts i very much doubt it but I do find it interesting So thank you
Some builders don't put oil on the pistons or cylinder walls during reassembly, running them dry so it breaks in faster. I never did it with anything I rebuilt but I'm probably too chicken to risk it.
When I rebuild an engine I always use John Deere break-in oil. I have had good luck with it so far. I usually run it for 100 hrs and dump it. I know it's just a brand name and I could buy it from any automotive store but my dealer is closer so I use it. Thanks for a great video.
If you rebuild a Deere diesel and run their plus50 oil without doing a break in oil run first it will not seat the rings. I have seen it several times.
@@bcbloc02 yes I think the plus50 is semi synthetic so it would be a step back for sure. I use it in all my engines even the Briggs and Stratton rotor tiller
My favourite story about lubrication came from a guy who was a computer room operator/supervisor. Who had NO interest in cars, and less in how they worked. On a trip in his old Ford Escort (In the UK), the oil pressure warning light came on. (No gauge on the economy model), so in goes a pint of oil. Some miles later, on goes the light again. In goes another pint. This happened a few times. NEVER DID HE THINK TO CHECK THE DIP-STICK! Neither did he wonder where all that oil was disappearing to. . . . . Then the seals all blew. Because the issue was the pump. . . . . . Ouch!
Hi Squatch you have done a really fine job overhauling this tractor,and as long as we are talking about oil, how often do you change the oil on on your equipment ,I realise after all the time and money you have invested in this D2 you will want to take extra good care of it but what about your equiment such as the RD6 and the other equipment witch you seldom use!!
Another aspect of compression is that compression is dependent on how well the rings "inflate" during the compression stroke. The rings are not sealing themselves against the cylinder walls and the piston ring lands simply because they "fit so tight". The rings also react to the displacement of the air charge during compression by inflating to press hard against the cylinder walls and the ring lands of the piston. That is why an engine in a vehicle that has not been run in a long time may have poor compression in an initial compression test but retesting later can show improved compression after the rings have freed up. Likewise the ability for rings to inflate can be affected if an engine is subjected severe overheating and the elasticity of the rings is reduced and the rings can warp slightly. Of course in overheat events you have a lot more to worry about than if your rings are going to survive.
As for compression I once restored a Lister CS diesel engine. These have a chrome bore (Listard cylinder) which was seized solid. I had to bash hell out of the piston to remove it but the chrome bore looked ok after a light honing. I put new rings in but had no real compression to start it. I coupled it to another engine and span it over until it started. Much like the pony motor arrangement on the Cat. After 4 hours running it had really good compression. Again no filter but I changed the oil regularly. It only took a little oil so why wouldn't you. Also if its sat for a while in a cold damp shed the oil might pick up water which isn't good.
My first car was a 61 chevy with an unfiltered 235 engine. It dripped a quart a week from the rear main. It used rerun oil for a while. When I rebuilt it I found an oil filter at a wrecking yard to bolt on manifold. Took me several tries to route the connecting hoses so they wouldn't rub a hole in them. I did change to a premium oil after rebuild but I never could keep old chevys from developing slow leaks in rear seals until I got into 70s model engines. Even our 36 massey harris tractor used oil pretty regular so adding oil is what my brothers and I did constantly. I cringe when the dealer says my new car only needs oil change every 8 to 10k.
Well on that note, my guess is your next oil discussion will not include the additives "zinc" and "phosphorus". You can't make that horse drink, no matter! Keep up the good work.
After watching all the pony motor videos and the oil discussion, I'm fairly sure that the reason my grandfather's D4 was parked on a steep hill most of the time and there were several pony motor blocks lurking in the shed is because he didn't change the oil in it much and always shut it off with the magneto...
Years ago I asked my machine shop guy about running detergent oil in a engine that used non-detergent oil and he said the main and rod bearings were made of a harder material than the newer engines and didn't want the particles circulated with the detergent oil circulated and possibly scratching the crank where the non-detergent didn't circulate near as much particles. He did recommend using detergent oil because it was superior to the non-detergent and change it more often.
The detergent is mainly to stop wear products settling in oil galleries and obstructing them. Splash lubrication does not use oil galleries. I've used 10,000 km old used diesel engine oil (DELO) in the Tecumseh engine in my ride on mower for 30 years and the bearings are perfect.
Totally agree with you on oil. Also I have never been one to mention you should paint or not paint the tractor for I can understand not painting the tractor. I could never change the patina on my dad’s gravely as it would not be how I remembered it. I am sure the family that owned the D2 appreciates it being left how they remembered it. All the best and thanks for the great history lessons. There is nothing better in life than taking an old tractor and making it new again. Just look at Jay Leno and how much he puts into restoring cars. Yes most are worth big money but he has several where he has put more into them than they are worth. He enjoys the using of them. Cannot wait to see that great big smile on you the first time the D2 is used again.
I've always thought that these little starting engines were neat,, i didn't realize how low the compression was though ,but it doesn't surprise me much because most of the small engines ,like lawnmower engines and many many wisconsin engines very rarely are they over 100PSI ,,I had the starting engine on my 1959 JD 730 rebuilt a few years ago and I did about the same thing you described here ,i changed the oil after every time i ran it ,,the Deere has a V4 starting engine which is equipped with electric start ,,aside from that the procedure for starting the tractor is pretty much identical to this one you have
I figured out a long time ago that a good supply of clean oil that exceeded OEM spec was worth a lot more than the fancy brand name that didn't get topped up or changed often enough because it was so dang expensive. Details will vary but as a basic philosophy this has worked best for me.
A wise old bird I used to work with stated, "Oil is the cheapest mechanic in the world ". He was right. Having opened up engines where the owners significantly extended oil drain intervals,things happen in them what ain't pretty.
That is insane! I do small engine repair all the time and routinely hit 120. You should talk about this extensively and why and what are the advantages.
This information is an eye opener. No-one does break-in oil changes on new cars in UK. Accepting this is old technology, this makes me think a break-in oil change is a must. The channel keeps getting better Squatch, you've single handedly turn us all into Cat D2 experts.
Most modern cars have the 'break in' done at the factory during machining, it's called a 'plateau hone' and basically uses a special abrasive brush to smooth out the initial hone pattern in the same way the piston rings do in a traditional break in. The piston rings are similarly manufactured to a greater degree of precision so that they can seat against a plateau honed bore without needing to be run in. The engine will still 'run in' to a certain degree, but it's like 95% of the way there before the engine is started for the first time. Just to add to the complexity, some manufacturers have stopped using cast iron cylinder liners, instead the aluminium bore is coated with a composite material made of silicon carbide and nickel. The silicon carbide component is harder than sapphires, and under most circumstances won't run in at all- a fine diamond hone is used to remove a thin layer of nickel and expose the silicon carbide, at which point the cylinder is complete, with the low spots where the nickel was removed acting to hold oil like the crosshatch in a traditional cylinder. Only the rings get broken in.
I guess everyone can argue about that all day long about the oil, but you can bet your bottom dollar, if I was rebuilding one of these things, it would be the "Squatch" way. Period.
Oh no, if you are using Pennzoil in that pony engine, it will be ruined by June because my wife's hairdresser's brother-in-law had an engine fail using Pennzoil. :-) Good info on changing the oil in the rebuilt and that compression is IMPRESSIVE.
One thing I have found out over the years of rebuilding any engine is thy always have bleed down that ie normal I been doing this sents 12 with my dad grandfather and uncles I am 61 now have a 430 motor on the stand right now fixing to go back together as soon as the pistons come in have everything but those to go back together.
Basicly u turn cylinder walls into a micro file for the rings wich have groves desighned to wear. To a smooth finnish and conform to the shape of the cylinder walls
@@squatch253- When questioned years ago on the phone about less zinc in modern oils, and older cars needing higher zinc levels, Mobil told me that their zinc replacement additive packages were superior to zinc. I tend to believe them. Moving camshaft and lifter production to China and Turkey, well guess what, they sent improperly hardened camshafts and lifters to cam grinders who then sent them to the engine rebuilders. And, to make more power requires a more aggressive camshaft profile, plus stiffer valve springs than stock. The whole zinc thingy is likely a pile of bull shit. The real issue is higher performance and Chinese and Turkish junk. Translated: money. It’s not really cheap nor easy to harden a camshaft lobe correctly.
Spot on about initial oil changes in new (or rebuilt) small un-filtered engines. It is amazing how much more life you can get out of them by the method you described.
Thinking ahead to warm weather. How big is the building going to be that you're going to build this summer. Might have to join the members group as way of helping fund it.
Maybe you could engineer some kind of filtration system for the break in oil. The detergent package is no where near depleted. Then the oil that is getting expensive and harder to find everyday could be re used in the break in. Just a thought.
Hello Squatch253; You gave me a "Flash-Back" to when compression test were common. Was that a "wet" or "dry" test? Beautiful job! A friend has an old 292 (I think that's right) hemi He wants rebuilt. He paints houses. I told him to take it to a rebuilder. Would it be a good thing to put one of those magnets an oil pan? Great video. Looking for the next one.
Not a bad idea so long as you remove the magnet before oil change,but a better idea is to epoxy a modern super duper heavy duty magnet to the end of the oil drain plug. That way wiping the crap off,you know you got it out of the oil pan.
As an another up grade. Is there a spot on the block low where could drill a hole and tap it . For a plug, that could extend into oil . Like a drain plug with a magnet. You could take out and clean to help catch debris?
Hey been thinking about the wide tracks you want to use and clearance issues…. Well if not going ti put a blade back on it. The front mounts you have the stand bolted to if make a attaching wear guide shield thats bolts on and will come up and give a place for the tracks to hit before getting into the radiator/engine! Or maybe if not block the track but the frame carriage can bump up against ????
Guess easy to arm chair ideas when do not have a dog in the hunt!!! So what about Bork!?? He going off the deep end or what? Think his best pals Mr. Bud and Wiser are getting the best of him? Know not my place to say… but just like the guy and like to see him do well!
Ok, Squatch I'm impressed with the compression check, but at 1min33sec you switched to the gauge view now in impressed with that valve on the floor WHAT did it come out of WOW,
Being a big fan of KISS, every filter-less small 4-stroke I have has a permanent magnet epoxied onto its dipstick. The rate of accumulation of shiny fuzz there drops noticeably during the first dozen or so hours of runtime. I refuse to passively let that stuff loose in there, when I can trap it- never heard of benefits from it getting between cam lobes and followers, and that sort of thing.
the four things you never mention in a public setting ... Religion , Politics , Oil and which manufacture makes the best trucks 😆😁👍 and for that matter the proper color of tractor ... thanks @squatch253
10w30, 10w40... It stops making a difference below a certain size and fineness of engine. Is is it to the line ? Is it not black as your grandads coffee? You're just fine
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Interesting to see the suspended metal particles picked up by the magnet. My philosophy on the old starting engine is that I will take the time and expense to change the 1 qt. of oil every few starts and do all I can to prolong starting engine life. Thanks for another informative video👍🏼
@@squatch253 Your comments about non-detergent and detergent oil are spot on. Oil company advertising (mostly past but some present too) is responsible for most of the confusion about types of oil. Of course, today, "synthetics" rule the roost. The days of engines without filters are gone for the most part and non-detergent oil is getting to be difficult to find. You will probably be getting arguments about paraffin based oils vs. asphalt based oils. Just something else to argue about. Unless you have a 50 year old unopened can of Oilzum or Pennzoil in your cabinet, you don't have any paraffin based oil.
Again, thanks for your unbiased and correct information on oil applications!
Surprised there's no magnet in the sump plug??
One tip I have heard for engines with no filter is to magnetise the dipstick. Then every time you check the oil, you wipe the dipstick removing the iron particles that have stuck to it.
Where possible l bore a hole in the drain plug and fit a piece of bar magnet to it.
Or glue a magnet to the end of the drain plug.
Your PhD in Caterpillar products is warranted and appropriate. Your expertise in CAT is well known and acknowledged by everyone except the Caterpillar Corporation. You have my endorsement and appreciation for your hard work and dedication to the heavy beasts you rebuild, service and enjoy. All the best to you Toby keep up the excellent work even though you are unsupported by the product you serve!!
75 PSI amounts to 5:1 compression, which in the 1930's was pretty standard even on fancier automobiles. The gasoline then available for automobiles wouldn't tolerate anything higher. It wasn't until after World War II when refineries that had been specially constructed or adapted to produce 100-octane aviation fuel for the military started producing higher-octane fuel for the civilian market.
5:1? There is nothing "standard" about compression ratio. Compression is a function of combustion chamber volume. Oh, and by the way, tetraeythel lead was "the" fuel additive octane adder, developed in the "1920's" to allow higher compression engines to be built! The above comment speaks to the problem our country is having these days. Facts don't mean shit any more. Sad!
I must have said, "WOW" six times after you showed the magnet. Amazing how much cast iron can wear like that. Thanks for the tutorial!
once the break in is done, run synthetic. The reduced friction it provides, makes a vast difference, provided oil change intervals are kept the same.(dont extend them). I have hundreds of hours on small engines that run like new, with no appreciable wear. Same is true right up to heavy truck engines that cover 2 million km's, 100% full loaded on 65 ton B-doubles.
I appreciate your approach to maintaining older equipment! Thank you for taking the time to explain what you do and your reasoning behind what you do for maintaining antiques!
Little snippets of knowledge/experience like this video is why I became a member, thank you.
Frankly I would like to see more engine oil talk. What was right for the old machinery is not the same as today. I worked on a Dutz Air cooled (diesel) engine and we estimated it had 8-20,000 hours and going good. Those engines had a strainer not a filter and the oil change was 50 hours. Sometimes it got changed and sometimes not (out in the Philippines at Clark and the military maint people they paid to maintain it were conscientious to totally slack) . That was with a fairly modern oil (80s era)
I change pony oil often as well. Over maintenance is vital on these engines to keep them runnable for the next 100 years.
Good oil discussion!
I wouldn't go putting detergent oil in a well-used pony motor though; it will likely have that build up of sludge and once there that's better left alone until rebuild.
Wow, that's pretty cool. I still can't get over just how black that oil is after such a short run time. Your explanation makes a lot of sense though, thank you. Oh, and I see what you meant in a video a long time ago, TH-cam really does pick a thumbnail with your mouth open! LOL
For people without your knowledge of how an old engine is manufactured is priceless, folk who purchase an old machine just for the fun of having one and occasionally run at home or at shows should be guided by your advice. The older dozers we had in our felling business were often on sold to enthusiasts and our mechanic would go into such detail to the buyer on how to best lubricate the running components for best continued life. Great tutorial.
Great info on break ins and engine oil use. Looking forward to the next segment!
Love watching your restoration and the attention to detail. It was great to see the starting process of a fresh rebuild.
What helps is the explanation of why you made these choices and how it works for the engines you run and what happens with the oil and procedure you use. This is not normal advice of "Use this oil, it's the best" but an set of reasons for your choices of what and why so we (the common people) can apply your experience and expertise to our own situation. The best advice helps me make my own decisions! Thanks! Also, WOW that's a lot of iron in that oil for less than an hour of use.
Always learning something from your videos!
Dangerous territory Toby. "Tastes great / Less Filling" "coke / Pepsi" "flame broiler / fried" "Maryanne / Ginger" "Ford / Chevy" boy oh boy, can opened, worms EVERYWHERE!
I remember when I was mechanicing… I rebuilt a Rabbit diesel engine. Synthetic oils has just come out, and I put that in the engine 😵💫. You want to talk about an oil disaster!!! Of course (we didn’t know it then) the rings wouldn’t seat. I had to strip that thing back down and reclean everything. Fortunately we learned quick and put in a mineral oil break in oil for the second go. That critter blew blue smoke you couldn’t see through on that synthetic! Fortunately we had the hose off that would have dumped that back into the intake (we always disconnected it until initial break in was done to discourage run away). The oil didn’t have anti-wear additives (knew better than that!) but still was too slick to let the rings seat.
No "Oil Fight" Here. You're Spot On.....
Nice job on that carb , have never heard a pony run that rock steady . My uncle had an old caterpillar that he used clearing lots and his pony never ran like that 👍👍🇺🇸
Wow I wouldn’t have guessed there was that much metal in the oil for that short of a run thank for sharing buddy
Very good explanation on detergent vs. Non-detergent motor oil. I agree with a quote you've made on here before. More engines have been ruined by not having enough (or sometimes any) oil than have been ruined by the quote on quote "wrong" oil.
Thanks for your honest answers. I appreciate your competence, knowledge, thoroughness, and dry humor.
Well you're very informative again ! My dad always told me to put non-detergent oil in lawnmower engine but I never knew why & I didn't know the difference, just did it . so you taught this old dog a new trick .
Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍
I've learned something today! An interest thought process on the detergent vs non-detergent oils. There is a time and application consideration for things. I like the fuzzy doughnut comparison. Great video
Very adequate explanation of what is going on with the break-in oil of the pony. Thank you for your time.
Very informative video, the amount of metal on that magnet sure surprised me.
Imressive video. You really does the good work for us! Thank you so much!
Great job and video @Squatch253. I think the main take away is to service your stuff!! I had a trade school teacher who would always say, "Any oil, especially clean oil, is better than no oil".
Very good method to your madness squatch, at this point you have proven yourself and if you told me to run vegetable oil in my machine I probably would ha ha.
Thanks for another informative video, cheers.
Back in 1980 I tore down a locked up 390 Ford engine and did a rebuild on it for my brother. It used a quart of oil in its first 500 miles and gradually decreased its oil consumption during the first 6000 miles. He was all upset about his fresh rebuilt engine using oil until I explained to him that it would need to be driven enough to get through its break in period. After the second oil change it would go 6000 miles and only be a little below the full mark.
That detergent oil is a good Idea doing it like you do Squatch. Good idea for sure.Great video...
Thank you for the video.
Excellent video you are absolutely right about the oils. I have broken in big diesel engines with non detergent motor oil. I have also used non detergent motor oil as a flushing agent in really dirty engines before I take the oil pan off it does a good job of scrubbing the sludge out I bought a G705 mm diesel tractor years ago the oil was so thick and nasty it would not drip off of the dipstick in 90 degrees weather so I flushed it a few times and the oil started staying clean. Every type of oil has it's place depending on the purpose. Keep up the great videos Toby
I almost asked on the first start video if you were going to perform an early oil change, I now know without even asking. The way I look at it, oil is cheap, rebuilds are expensive. I’m also a fan of running detergent oils, more for the additive package than the detergent/suspension capabilities. ND oils usually have a weaker additive package from a anti-wear/extreme pressure protection. However, like you said, everyone has an opinion (that is always the correct one) on which is better.
On that note, I’m extremely cute see what the oil analysis says on Kyle’s RD-4 engine and back end, it’s a look back in time to see what they were using in the 1970s! Cheers!!!
Thanks for confirming my approach to oil in the starting engine.
After blowing up a connecting rod in my '49 D4 shortly after i got it
I've been treating it's replacement with an oil change every time the oil
gets the slightest bit dark.
Your video series is encouraging me to do a rebuild of my original starting engine
which has been sitting under the bench lo these many years.
Thanks.....F
Thank you Toby for the insight, there was some valuable info in this video for me. I can't comment much on the oils cause I use very different brands to what your using. So I don't wanna start a fight here. However I will say this people do make mistakes when the break in diesel engines. Main mistake I have seen is when people break in the engine and don't follow the factory recommendations. This is when things get messy and you get engines that spit out oil or the rings don't wear in correct. Ask me how I know :D
Pony motor is a happy camper and great information!
good info i always was wondering about that. seen the last video it sounds good.
We run-in new and resurfaced aircraft cylinders with mineral oil (non-ashless-dispersant) for this very reason. The rings wear the hone surface down for compression and leave just enough surface to hold oil. Aircraft engines in the old days didn't even have filters, just screens! 2 hours first run, 10 hours next change, then 20 and usually by then, we switch to ashless dispersant oil.
A great explanation of break in and what happens. As for engine oil, yeah, I avoid that conversation/argument myself. Your explanation of detergent vs non detergent was excellent. Thanks.
@@squatch253 I still work in the industry as a tech trainer for a manufacturer. Oil technology is mind blowing really. In my opinion, your explanation of detergent vs non detergent was spot on. Ask yourself, what do need the oil to do? Make your selection.
@@squatch253 Your explanations of why to use what type of oil makes sense here to this scientist. Full synthetic oils have come a long way and in modern engines with tight tolerances a full synthetic makes perfect sense due to materials and alloys used in modern engines. In the old style engines, they were designed for the conventional oils and those I have seen improvements on as well. We would be appalled at the quality of 1930's era oil in today's knowledge. For break in the non detergent oils make sense. But after break in on a filtered engine, would synthetics in your opinion be a good choice to keep a rebuilt engine viable as long as required oil changes to flush out contamination and restore viscosity due to air oxidation and heat leading to oil breakdown be permissible? On a non filtered engine, they do require frequent oil changes as there is no other way to remove contamination. I am loving your explanations.
Looking at a D2 to possibly buy.
Pros. 15 miles from home. Well maintained. Unaltered (not a bunch of home made repairs and add ons)
Cons. Doesn’t run. Possible cracked block. Has been sitting for 20 years.
Need advice on parts availability and sources.
I don’t know how to communicate with you other than the comments section.
You probably don’t have time for individual responses.
Thanks, Peter
@@squatch253 Thanks for your informative reply.
I did watch your video on assessing a D2 for possible purchase. It just fortified my interest in getting a D2.
If it turns out to be too costly to repair, is parting out an option?
My background is, former Detroit diesel technician worked on the 12V 149s down to the 53s. Former Mercedes Benz diesel tech.
Retired Toyota master tech.
Have a shop with lathe and milling machine, gas, arc, and mig.
Bought my first car when I was 13.
Restored cars, but tired of bodywork, wiring, glass work, upholstery, painting, etc.
Looking for something purely mechanical.
Never worked on a Cat, but the D2 fits the bill.
Thanks Peter
Can’t beat that logic !! Couldn’t get over the colour of that oil …. ! Prevention is better than cure !
The oils these days are 100 times better than in the day ! And your rebuild was so precise - it will see us all out ..!
Excellent explanation. I hope to get to the upcoming meet on Friday. I have a appointment in the cities on thurs afternoon, and trying to talk the wife into going there then to Eau Claire.
@@squatch253 pioneer power swap meet,
I know people get feisty about oils and types and changes etc everyone has their own ideas and preferences
I don’t judge anyone on their choices, but I do find it interesting to know what other people do,
Keep up the great work and thanks for bringing us along for the ride…
Will I ever own one of these beautiful beasts i very much doubt it but I do find it interesting
So thank you
Wow 90 on 3 pulls that's pretty impressive
Thanks. Great video.
Well personally I think you are a great mechanic. I’m just working on a Farmall B. But your explanations make so much sense and challenge me to think.
Some builders don't put oil on the pistons or cylinder walls during reassembly, running them dry so it breaks in faster. I never did it with anything I rebuilt but I'm probably too chicken to risk it.
When I rebuild an engine I always use John Deere break-in oil. I have had good luck with it so far. I usually run it for 100 hrs and dump it. I know it's just a brand name and I could buy it from any automotive store but my dealer is closer so I use it. Thanks for a great video.
If you rebuild a Deere diesel and run their plus50 oil without doing a break in oil run first it will not seat the rings. I have seen it several times.
@@bcbloc02 yes I think the plus50 is semi synthetic so it would be a step back for sure.
I use it in all my engines even the Briggs and Stratton rotor tiller
My favourite story about lubrication came from a guy who was a computer room operator/supervisor. Who had NO interest in cars, and less in how they worked. On a trip in his old Ford Escort (In the UK), the oil pressure warning light came on. (No gauge on the economy model), so in goes a pint of oil. Some miles later, on goes the light again. In goes another pint. This happened a few times. NEVER DID HE THINK TO CHECK THE DIP-STICK! Neither did he wonder where all that oil was disappearing to. . . . . Then the seals all blew. Because the issue was the pump. . . . . . Ouch!
Hi Squatch you have done a really fine job overhauling this tractor,and as long as we are talking about oil, how often do you change the oil on on your equipment ,I realise after all the time and money you have invested in this D2 you will want to take extra good care of it but what about your equiment such as the RD6 and the other equipment witch you seldom use!!
Squatch253, you deserve so many more subscribers!!
That said: What about Diesel engine oil? Will you get to thst topic too? If so, about when?
good video good content keep up the good work ethic
Another aspect of compression is that compression is dependent on how well the rings "inflate" during the compression stroke. The rings are not sealing themselves against the cylinder walls and the piston ring lands simply because they "fit so tight". The rings also react to the displacement of the air charge during compression by inflating to press hard against the cylinder walls and the ring lands of the piston.
That is why an engine in a vehicle that has not been run in a long time may have poor compression in an initial compression test but retesting later can show improved compression after the rings have freed up. Likewise the ability for rings to inflate can be affected if an engine is subjected severe overheating and the elasticity of the rings is reduced and the rings can warp slightly. Of course in overheat events you have a lot more to worry about than if your rings are going to survive.
As for compression I once restored a Lister CS diesel engine. These have a chrome bore (Listard cylinder) which was seized solid. I had to bash hell out of the piston to remove it but the chrome bore looked ok after a light honing. I put new rings in but had no real compression to start it. I coupled it to another engine and span it over until it started. Much like the pony motor arrangement on the Cat. After 4 hours running it had really good compression. Again no filter but I changed the oil regularly. It only took a little oil so why wouldn't you. Also if its sat for a while in a cold damp shed the oil might pick up water which isn't good.
My first car was a 61 chevy with an unfiltered 235 engine. It dripped a quart a week from the rear main. It used rerun oil for a while. When I rebuilt it I found an oil filter at a wrecking yard to bolt on manifold. Took me several tries to route the connecting hoses so they wouldn't rub a hole in them. I did change to a premium oil after rebuild but I never could keep old chevys from developing slow leaks in rear seals until I got into 70s model engines. Even our 36 massey harris tractor used oil pretty regular so adding oil is what my brothers and I did constantly. I cringe when the dealer says my new car only needs oil change every 8 to 10k.
Even though you can wait until the computer says change the oil I still change it and the filter at 3000 . 4000 tops . Oil is cheap .
Well on that note, my guess is your next oil discussion will not include the additives "zinc" and "phosphorus". You can't make that horse drink, no matter! Keep up the good work.
After watching all the pony motor videos and the oil discussion, I'm fairly sure that the reason my grandfather's D4 was parked on a steep hill most of the time and there were several pony motor blocks lurking in the shed is because he didn't change the oil in it much and always shut it off with the magneto...
Years ago I asked my machine shop guy about running detergent oil in a engine that used non-detergent oil and he said the main and rod bearings were made of a harder material than the newer engines and didn't want the particles circulated with the detergent oil circulated and possibly scratching the crank where the non-detergent didn't circulate near as much particles. He did recommend using detergent oil because it was superior to the non-detergent and change it more often.
The detergent is mainly to stop wear products settling in oil galleries and obstructing them.
Splash lubrication does not use oil galleries.
I've used 10,000 km old used diesel engine oil (DELO) in the Tecumseh engine in my ride on mower for 30 years and the bearings are perfect.
Totally agree with you on oil. Also I have never been one to mention you should paint or not paint the tractor for I can understand not painting the tractor. I could never change the patina on my dad’s gravely as it would not be how I remembered it. I am sure the family that owned the D2 appreciates it being left how they remembered it. All the best and thanks for the great history lessons. There is nothing better in life than taking an old tractor and making it new again. Just look at Jay Leno and how much he puts into restoring cars. Yes most are worth big money but he has several where he has put more into them than they are worth. He enjoys the using of them.
Cannot wait to see that great big smile on you the first time the D2 is used again.
I've always thought that these little starting engines were neat,, i didn't realize how low the compression was though ,but it doesn't surprise me much because most of the small engines ,like lawnmower engines and many many wisconsin engines very rarely are they over 100PSI
,,I had the starting engine on my 1959 JD 730 rebuilt a few years ago and I did about the same thing you described here ,i changed the oil after every time i ran it ,,the Deere has a V4 starting engine which is equipped with electric start ,,aside from that the procedure for starting the tractor is pretty much identical to this one you have
Just had your channel pop up in my suggestions. Guessing from your screen name your local to me in peirce county.
I figured out a long time ago that a good supply of clean oil that exceeded OEM spec was worth a lot more than the fancy brand name that didn't get topped up or changed often enough because it was so dang expensive. Details will vary but as a basic philosophy this has worked best for me.
A wise old bird I used to work with stated, "Oil is the cheapest mechanic in the world ". He was right. Having opened up engines where the owners significantly extended oil drain intervals,things happen in them what ain't pretty.
Don’t let a stay at home dad amsoil seller hear you say that
That is insane! I do small engine repair all the time and routinely hit 120. You should talk about this extensively and why and what are the advantages.
I would not want a higher compression as it can have quite a kick back as it is.
This information is an eye opener. No-one does break-in oil changes on new cars in UK. Accepting this is old technology, this makes me think a break-in oil change is a must. The channel keeps getting better Squatch, you've single handedly turn us all into Cat D2 experts.
Most modern cars have the 'break in' done at the factory during machining, it's called a 'plateau hone' and basically uses a special abrasive brush to smooth out the initial hone pattern in the same way the piston rings do in a traditional break in. The piston rings are similarly manufactured to a greater degree of precision so that they can seat against a plateau honed bore without needing to be run in. The engine will still 'run in' to a certain degree, but it's like 95% of the way there before the engine is started for the first time.
Just to add to the complexity, some manufacturers have stopped using cast iron cylinder liners, instead the aluminium bore is coated with a composite material made of silicon carbide and nickel. The silicon carbide component is harder than sapphires, and under most circumstances won't run in at all- a fine diamond hone is used to remove a thin layer of nickel and expose the silicon carbide, at which point the cylinder is complete, with the low spots where the nickel was removed acting to hold oil like the crosshatch in a traditional cylinder. Only the rings get broken in.
@@nerd1000ify Thank you your insight and this very comprehensive reply.
I guess everyone can argue about that all day long about the oil, but you can bet your bottom dollar, if I was rebuilding one of these things, it would be the "Squatch" way. Period.
Oh no, if you are using Pennzoil in that pony engine, it will be ruined by June because my wife's hairdresser's brother-in-law had an engine fail using Pennzoil. :-)
Good info on changing the oil in the rebuilt and that compression is IMPRESSIVE.
🤣😂
This is a great one
Could sure use a couple of those magnets.
One thing I have found out over the years of rebuilding any engine is thy always have bleed down that ie normal I been doing this sents 12 with my dad grandfather and uncles I am 61 now have a 430 motor on the stand right now fixing to go back together as soon as the pistons come in have everything but those to go back together.
Basicly u turn cylinder walls into a micro file for the rings wich have groves desighned to wear. To a smooth finnish and conform to the shape of the cylinder walls
@@squatch253- When questioned years ago on the phone about less zinc in modern oils, and older cars needing higher zinc levels, Mobil told me that their zinc replacement additive packages were superior to zinc. I tend to believe them.
Moving camshaft and lifter production to China and Turkey, well guess what, they sent improperly hardened camshafts and lifters to cam grinders who then sent them to the engine rebuilders. And, to make more power requires a more aggressive camshaft profile, plus stiffer valve springs than stock. The whole zinc thingy is likely a pile of bull shit. The real issue is higher performance and Chinese and Turkish junk. Translated: money. It’s not really cheap nor easy to harden a camshaft lobe correctly.
Spot on about initial oil changes in new (or rebuilt) small un-filtered engines. It is amazing how much more life you can get out of them by the method you described.
Thinking ahead to warm weather. How big is the building going to be that you're going to build this summer. Might have to join the members group as way of helping fund it.
Squatch is the Oil Guy!!
i learned a lot. maybe you cna explain the pros and cons of parfin based oils?
Wow! Amazing how much metal particles can come out of those pony motors! Looks great though!👌😎👍
Caterpillar ought to give you an honorary degree in mechanical engineering, Toby!
Maybe you could engineer some kind of filtration system for the break in oil. The detergent package is no where near depleted. Then the oil that is getting expensive and harder to find everyday could be re used in the break in. Just a thought.
Good video
Hello Squatch253; You gave me a "Flash-Back" to when compression test were common. Was that a "wet" or "dry" test? Beautiful job! A friend has an old 292 (I think that's right) hemi He wants rebuilt. He paints houses. I told him to take it to a rebuilder. Would it be a good thing to put one of those magnets an oil pan? Great video. Looking for the next one.
Not a bad idea so long as you remove the magnet before oil change,but a better idea is to epoxy a modern super duper heavy duty magnet to the end of the oil drain plug. That way wiping the crap off,you know you got it out of the oil pan.
As an another up grade. Is there a spot on the block low where could drill a hole and tap it . For a plug, that could extend into oil . Like a drain plug with a magnet. You could take out and clean to help catch debris?
What is that huge valve out of setting by the shelf on the floor? Love it. Next project?
Hey been thinking about the wide tracks you want to use and clearance issues…. Well if not going ti put a blade back on it. The front mounts you have the stand bolted to if make a attaching wear guide shield thats bolts on and will come up and give a place for the tracks to hit before getting into the radiator/engine! Or maybe if not block the track but the frame carriage can bump up against ????
The wife is always asking what perfume to buy. I say "90wt or 92 octane".
(a comment about oil)
Hahahaha! The famous ol' oil debate!
I have the same way of thinking as you.
J.F.🇨🇦
*OIL*
Yes
I run with a magnet in the bottom of my gauze filter in my car engine, comes out with some fur on it every time I change the oil!
Guess easy to arm chair ideas when do not have a dog in the hunt!!! So what about Bork!?? He going off the deep end or what? Think his best pals Mr. Bud and Wiser are getting the best of him? Know not my place to say… but just like the guy and like to see him do well!
Ok, Squatch I'm impressed with the compression check, but at 1min33sec you switched to the gauge view now in impressed with that valve on the floor WHAT did it come out of WOW,
Any time u do a rebuild Never use a synthetic oil so you do get an engine break in
Good info here. But, I'm curious about the valve sitting back there on the floor.
> oil
The most dangerous topic to ever discuss in any tractor or equipment forum.
🤣🤣
Being a big fan of KISS, every filter-less small 4-stroke I have has a permanent magnet epoxied onto its dipstick. The rate of accumulation of shiny fuzz there drops noticeably during the first dozen or so hours of runtime. I refuse to passively let that stuff loose in there, when I can trap it- never heard of benefits from it getting between cam lobes and followers, and that sort of thing.
the four things you never mention in a public setting ... Religion , Politics , Oil and which manufacture makes the best trucks 😆😁👍 and for that matter the proper color of tractor ... thanks @squatch253
If it never had an oil pump it wouldn't have any oil passages to accommodate oil circulation. My mistake. Thanks for the replies.
I had a 48 VAC Case without a oil filter. Turns out the oil filter was a option.
The only thing that could make the oil topic more controversial is to throw different viscosities into the mix!
10w30, 10w40... It stops making a difference below a certain size and fineness of engine. Is is it to the line ? Is it not black as your grandads coffee? You're just fine