The part he said out loud: "he simply wanted to keep his hospital running" The unsaid part: "and maintain executive bonuses by underpaying the people on the front lines". F this guy.
I would think that a level 2 trauma/stroke care facility would charge rates according to the talent they have. I wouldn’t want to pay major league prices for minor league care. Thedacare may lose its status and ability to charge the rates they have charged in the past. It’s their own fault for letting at-will (free agent) talent walk away.
I wish people would stop calling hospitals in the 1st world the front lines. They're not the front lines of anything. Front lines is a combat zone where you regularly are in combat I dont want to hear but rona, that shit has a 99.9% survival rate for anyone that's not fat or old, and when they're factored in its a 99.9% survival rate.
@@deusvult6920 I think op meant in the sence of all companies having a front line. Every company I have worked for has called the front line the part that deals with the public and/or does the actual work. Everyone else would be management or paper pushers.
Bingo! That's the real problem: For-profit medical care. The medical staff are not getting paid, but someone is making a profit off of this! Why should anyone make a profit off of the illness and misfortune of others? Cover costs ... sure ... absurd profits? Really?! Isn't that what vampires do?
Forget the CEO, I still can't believe a judge in a free country would dare grant an injunction preventing free at will employees from seeking alternate employment. That company hired employees, it *did not* purchase *slaves* and this whole debacle is a national embarrassment.
You haven't looked at the whole picture presented to the judge. ThedaCare was telling the truth that stroke care and some trauma care would be disrupted when those employees left. That could mean someone would die if he didn't issue the TRO.
@@christianlibertarian5488 that is a theta care problem, that is *not* the employee's problem. They have already willfully terminated their employment, they went through all the proper procedures to give Theta the opportunity to not lose their employees, Theta care made the decision that it would be cheaper to let them go and try to hire other people for lower pay rates. If Theta cares so little about their employees, I guarantee you they care equally little about their patients. And Theta isn't the only one providing these services, those employees were going somewhere - the patients could go there too. So don't give me that "they were risking people's lives!" *BULLSHIT* excuse to try and entrap people into defacto slavery, whether the span of time would've been 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years it is pure nonsense.
@@kuuryotwo5153 I am defending the judge's decision to grant the temporary restraining order over the weekend. The judge was presented with the possible injury to patients in all of Northeastern Wisconsin if he did nothing. So he tried to give them a weekend to figure out a way to cover the service. That is not unreasonable. ThedaCare can go catheterize itself. I have since found out that they had weeks to act, but did nothing, then tried to force themselves on the workers.
My guess its the pandemic. He obviously only held it up for two non working days. It could have been a political hot potatoe if it had gone differently. Cover your ass.
The only irreparable harm for Thedacare is that nobody will ever willingly apply to work there because any google search will bring up all they need to know about their staffing practices.
do not worry. They will create new press about a new issue. Open a new wing, fire an executive for misconduct, anniversaries... Or they could simply change their name and claim they are under new and improved managed.
I think this could be easily added to the, "Top 10 Ways Companies Tell Their Employees They Hate Them". Good luck putting THIS genie back in the bottle for new hires and retention.
I was a Catscan Technologist and pulled call at nights, I lived an hour away. Someone who is having a stroke to find out if it is a bleed vs a blood clot you have about 30 mins. So my boss wanted me to spend the night at the hospital when I was on call so I would be close enough to meet the 30 min window, I said "if you pay me I will." He said no! I said no back, I was not going to sleep on a cot in the department in case they need me without being paid for this situation. He said We will pay you if you get a patient to do and clock in, but while you sleep no. I told him I would be at home. He said, "you are a Christian don't you care about people?" I told him that the bible says the Workman is worth his hire. Since you are too cheap to pay someone to work at night God will be judging you, not me. I have moved on but they now have 24 hour techs on staff. These hospitals get away with "CALL' and make slaves out of their employees. From Nurse, to techs, to even IT People often putting them on salary so they don't have to pay them an extra dime for being on call. It is what I named the "call loop hole" to make slaves of employees.
I live in Oregon. They have ruled that "on call" is "working". Many companies are getting a retirement gift of a wage lawsuit as people retire. A fair number are winning the back pay to cover those "on call" hours.
A friend of mine worked at an eye hospital and was ambitious, he applied for a better paid position in the same health care authority and would now be loosing his on call payment. One of his co- workers said that he would miss the on call. His reply was F*** the on call.
My former employer (the government) calls the break room the "swing"room. Back in the day (before unions) workers came to work at a specific time, but rather than working, would sit in the swing room (off the clock) and wait for work to happen. If/when there was work, you'd clock in and start getting paid. It was called swinging, but it was, for all intents and purposes, on call. At my job it ended over 50 years ago. So sad that a version of it is still happening.
Can we recognize the real problem here: For-profit medical care. The medical staff are not getting paid, but someone is making a profit off of this! Why should anyone make a profit off of the illness and misfortune of others? Cover costs ... sure ... absurd profits? Really?! Isn't that what vampires do?
I feel the judge should at least have required the lawyers for ThedaCare to explain how granting the injunction would help anybody, _without_ assuming that it would coerce the workers to return to ThedaCare.
Those who say it isn't a big issue cause the judge did the injunction over the weekend should consider that it is an AT WILL STATE. That judge basically ignored the rights of the employee's who would have been affected the most, and any hospital that allows a patient to die cause of its negligence is not the fault of the employee's who gave advance notice asked for a counter offer and when told no left when that date of notice came. The judge ignored all of that at the Friday hearing giving Thedacare an unjust advantage to possibly intimidate those employee's who were not purposefully named in the suit to rejoin Thedacare or risk not working for potentially years while the case works it way through a slow court system. It is neither the moral or ethical responsibility of former employees to be concerned with the staffing issues at a former employer hospital or not it is the responsibility of the managers HR and admin of said entity. But according to this judge it doesn't work that way, in my opinion he caught wing of the backlash and figured out he fucked up thats why he vacated the order.
This was my hospital. Because of this lawsuit, we have chosen to transition to the other hospital, technically the clinic, but one owns the other so its the same net effect. Also, a client, a donor to the suing hospital, made it clear they will no longer be donating to this cause.
Several employees leaving at the same time is nearly always a sign of poor employee treatment/management. It's likely they realized they're sending a bad message to the rest of their employees, undermining morale. I expect them to have further high loss of employees.
Typically you see multiple help wanted positions at an employer. Then a week or two later the managers quit after being worked over 120 hours a week as cover, then finally the top nursing officer quits because she is now responsible for covering all positions 24/7. Its a sure sign of a real winner. Don't even think of going there for 6 months.
@@Absaalookemensch I've been in job interviews where 1 minute in I got up and left the Director of Nursing was so toxic. It takes them a while to figure out they can't fire their way to a full staff. Sometimes they call me for the interview. Can't really explain why you call someone in then shit all over them. Some sort of mental problem I would guess. The one every time I would open my moth to respond to her she would cut me off and heap abuse on me. After the third time I just quit responding and started to look at my watch for an opportunity to leave. Some places have a corporate office which tells them to interview but the DON has already promised the job to a friend or relative so the interview is like 10 minutes of silence.
@@rogersmith7396 I just hired a nurse and was so glad he recently moved to the area buying a house. I look forward to working with him for the next several years, until I retire. I've had a bit of turn-over issues, but it's because of spousal relocations. Otherwise we keep staff for many years. I have no idea what is wrong with administration or supervisors, why they drive away good staff. I work my tail off telling my staff how good glad we are to have them and do things to retain them. It ain't rocket science.
Hospital "A" was possibly hoping to intimidate it's current employees and discourage them from seeking better jobs elsewhere....which it seems now backfired in a most magnificent manner! Sometimes Karma DOES bite the offenders in the A$$
@@timdowney6721 anyone hiring manager who's not stupid knows they won't sue again. That was an expensive example and they can't afford it, reputation and money wise.
except it did not backfire. it worked. not well but it worked. they got a 3 day TRO Imagine your a min wage worker making $15 an hour or less. your rent is due in a week and the employer can muck you up for a week with a BS suit you know they will loose but your still out a weeks pay and not getting evicted. yeah the chilling effect of this kind of action is real. unless action is taken to make it clear the judge violated the law and other judges were put on notice not to do this type of crap. they won.
Political. Power lies with money. Hospitals have money. The judge probably just wanted a way to humor the hospital that would allow him to say he did his due dilligence to get the parties to settle the matter themselves. Then as soon as it was obvious that wouldn't happen he did what he probably knew had to be done.
Up to now the "At Will" laws have almost exclusively benefitted only the employers. In this new employment landscape, where employees are suddenly in a position of leverage, these laws may actually start to benefit employees once in a while.
And as that happens, count on Republicans to impose conditions on employees leaving. The GOP is all about enriching corporations at the expense of the lower and middle classes.
I wouldn't say that "at will" has almost exclusively benefitted only employers. Everybody knows somebody that just got fed up with their job and said "Yo, screw this place, I quit!" and walked out one second later. However, I do agree it generally benefits employers more than individual employees, such as in layoff situations.
My wife is an RN (BSN actually), for once they are able to write their own ticket. They've been fiscally abused by the medical profession for decades. There are a lot of nurses out there willing to work as travel nurses or contract, and that is who and what that hospital is going to have to deal with. Suck it up. Treat folks right and pay them they stay, don't, they leave. End of story.
The TRO should never have been issued. A quick glance at it should have been enough for a judge to determine it was a waste of time. Now that it has been dismissed, the ThedaCare lawyers should be sanctioned for filing it in the first place.
Imagine going for a temporary restraining order and the judge says "naw, we don't have time for fact finding or allowing the other party to respond" - - dismissed. 🙄 Nobody likes thedacare around here.
These stories truly tell the story of our times. Major corporations that should be profitable in the worst of times are having to resort to every imaginable dirty trick and method of coercion to force people to work for them. Make no mistake where the competitive wages went: lining the pockets of the same people who decided they'd rather pay lawyers to sue than raise wages and benefits for the actual workers.....
Their needs to legal consequences for the first hospital for filing a frivolous lawsuit that seems to have been a punishment for the former employees and to scare the current employees from leaving in the future.
Please keep in mind that the second hospital was not sued. Hospital A sued their former employees. In a state that passed the At Will law to keep their pay low and their power to unionize.
@@mrfunnylookinhayes9088 You're factually incorrect. The lawsuit was Thedacare, Inc. v. Ascension NE Wisconsin, Inc. The injunctive relief granted was to prevent Ascension from employing the workers, or in the alternative to provide staff to Thedacare while a transition was made.
It sounds like hospital A not only lost the original seven, but also lost at least two more employees and a significant financial donor on top of all the bad press that will likely cause future job seekers to carefully consider whether they'd care to work for this company.
Maine is an @ will state. I was working at a hospital and it was during my first 90 days they decided to " let me go". They gave me the option of " resigning". I told them I had to think about it. Lol resigning meant I could not apply for unemployment benefits or so they thought. They fought the unemployment benefits lying twice the first time they lied they had not received the notice for the hearing ( large hospital several people worked in HR but no one had seen the hearing notice ) and during the second hearing which took place ( months later I ran into my immediate supervisor out shopping. She apologized, told me she had been demoted and was looking after 25 years for a new job). I hugged her and said " you folks did me a favor"
As an "at will" hospital employee I was very interested in your earlier videos. I found the information clear and well presented. I'm not sure who didn't understand what was going on but I'm grateful for the info. Cheers!
I’m an at will employee and had a non-compete. I left my prior position for a better paying one simply by staying outside the non complete radius. My prior employer threatened to sue my new employer as well and similar to this it just got dismissed. Case and point, these are useless and desperate scare tactics.
@@fernandezfarm those non-compete agreements are generally unenforceable because they rarely, if ever, provide the worker compensation for the time they would have to wait before they could get hired by a competitor.
Sorry, but haven't you noticed in the last few years, the worse a corporation does, the BIGGER the CEO's bonuses are? If ThedaCare goes belly-up, his bonus will be even bigger!! Just look at recent history. Much of the bailout money corporations got went to bonuses!
The law suit was dropped?! Hella nah! The workers and hospital B should sue hospital A for all their money, because you can't just come like that and lie. Literally, abuse and slavery, lying in the court of law, claiming falsehood, simply because they have the power of expensive lawyers and abusing that power. Nah, they need to be punished with punitive damages of tens of millions of dollars, and a fine of similar value, to set a precedent, and have it clear. YOU DON'T DO THIS ABUSE !
I agree with his first video that a bond should have been paid by hospital A for salaries of all the employees involved in this suit and if hospital A couldn’t come up with a solid case as to why they should be allowed to retain the employees, the employees retain the bond. Start the bond at $150k. That was how the judge should have handled this decision.
@@johnmcginnis5201 On what basis? Their start date at the new hospital was delayed by 4 days I think. I agree Thedacare acted stupidly but that doesn't mean there's a lawsuit there or a lawsuit even worth pursuing.
@@happygardener28 The employees lost a day of pay. It has been reported that Theda Care offered to pay them that day, but any smart employee would respond with a fuck you because it no doubt would come with a clause to not sue. The employees could sue for tortuous interference. They have a right to work, and Theda Care successfully did delay their employment a day. The punitive damages should be intense. The worker to executive ratio on any jury isn't in the CEO's favor.
Wanna bet the CEO has a contract with a "golden parachute" unless fired for cause; where for cause is defined not to include this scenario? Bet embezzlement of hospital funds or losing too many employment discrimination cases or losing Medicare eligibility would be for cause. In fact holding a hard line on employee costs prob was one of the CEO's critical job responsibilities.
@@christophercripps7639 Uh, I would not take that bet! Spot on. And the rich wonder why 'eat the rich' is a thing. Forget left vs right; the struggle is the 99.5% against the rest of us.
ThedaCare did far more “damage” to themselves than the employees did, by making such a stink about the whole thing. How many potential employees would want to work at a place that will trash them if they seek employment elsewhere at a later date?
@@SteelHex Guess it depends upon how it is argued. But I'd never let a noncompete stop me. Depending upon the person's career, it's not reasonable to ask them to abandon their skills for a set time. also, many have argued the noncompete is one-sided. In US, under contract law, you can't enter into contracts that aren't mutually beneficial. And when most employers demand noncompete by default, how can anyone take a different job in their industry? it's simply an unreasonable and one-sided demand that is forced upon employees with no real way to negotiate it.
@@SoloRenegade In California it’s plainly unenforceable by law, but in many other states it applies as long as it’s reasonable. A non-compete only needs to make it unprofitable for the employee to change jobs, either by imposing a financial penalty larger than most raises (but small enough to not offend the court), by imposing a time restriction long enough to be impractical for job change (but short enough to not kill a career), or simply by threat of litigation that forces the employee to spend on expensive lawyers. That $10K raise looks a lot less enticing if you have to spend $50K defending it in court.
"We will suffer irreparable harm if you let these workers leave!" Words heard on many southern plantations in the late 19th century. Kinda sickening to hear them now as a paraphrase of a modern company's view on their 'workers'. I think the term for their employees they are looking for rhymes with "Glaive"
@@davidbarnett9312 Fool please. The wealthy will ways exist and rightfully so. When's the last time you heard about broke ass people creating jobs. As for America, the average American lives a far superior life to kings and captains of industry of a 100 years ago. Rockefeller himself couldn't get the dental care your average welfare queen gets today. No one has to be hungry in America unless they choose to be hungry. Same applies to homelessness. The average blue collar worker controls his environment, deciding if he's to hot or cold based on a whim. There's a lot to criticize, but America being shitty to average people is a pathetic joke.
@@jefflast9489 they may not be suffering but they get less compensation for their work than they deserve if you compare it to the compensation that the leadership gets
@@Tormonir Neither you or anyone else is entitled to wealthy people's money. They take enormous chances in the hopes of making huge gains, so they DESERVE what they've earned. If you want to put up your own money and make the bets and take the risks right along side them, there's nothing stopping you. I know for a fact you sure as hell wouldn't turn around and give it away to people you paid to do a job just because you feel like being a swell guy. I think it's great when some people become e obscenely wealthy, especially guys like Elon Musk. He takes the capital and plows it back into venture capitalism that has the potential to increase the standard of living for all mankind. That kind of innovation doesn't happen in your world of "I deserve it because I want it". By your way of thinking we would still be living in caves chucking rocks at sabertooth cats.
@@jefflast9489 I agree with you, with this caviat...I've worked in 4 different hospital labs over 38 years. Not many CEOs have taken any risks to get to their position. Most are medically uneducated, never make visits to the frontline departments and are fearful of taking questions from the staff level workers because they don't know the answers. All they seem to know is how to screw over the workers to meet their personnel budget goals. A few have legitimate intentions to make healthcare better, but most are looking out for themselves.
Unreal it took this long. Thedacare didn't even have standing to bring the suit in the first place, since employees aren't property and it's an at will state. Should have been immediately dismissed.
Exactly Steve. The employees actually gave Thedacare a chance to match the salary offer, but the hospital declined. They want to keep the technicians, but not willing to pay the market rate. Who gave them the right to force people to work at their rate?
Establishing the market rate is the discussion point being missed. It's not about smacking down the employees, they're inconsequential. It's about smacking down the hospital willing to pay more, and ThedaCare keeping their low established rate; THE established rate. How dear they interfere with the low rates currently paid with better offers. Maybe a lawsuit will make those smaller hospitals think twice about offering better salaries if it's going to cost them in court. After all, they can't take care of patients nearly as well. How could anyone NOT see they're more needed in the community over that smaller, lesser hospital... of course this brilliant plan is going to work... if ThedaCare had a face, insert surprised Pikachu face here. Ah, but the reward if it had worked.
And they had to give notice so it wasn't a surprise. Good Lord, the HR takes FOREVER to write a job description and bring in someone to interview at our research/hospital. And they don't screen them at all. Either forged certificates and or lies about experience.
It never ceases to amaze me how businesses refuse to hire replacements BEFORE the leaving employees are gone. I'm willing to guess not a single interview happened in that 6-week period. The only one putting patients "at risk" is the irresponsible management of the hospital.
putting patients at risk... Hmmm, business being what it is and the courts and govts and legislatures only too willing to kiss ass I am left remembering a thought: all things - products, materials, services - are commodities to be bought, sold, traded for the best profits possible. medical and nursing knowledge and skills are subject to this thinking. the employees only did what their (scumbag) employer would do - took a better deal. Thedacare put patients at risk by not treating/remunerating their employees well-enough they would not want to seek work elsewhere. Their employees only followed thedacare's principles.
I worked in healthcare long enough to know that it is nearly impossible to find nursing staff, especially during Covid. Add into that the idiot in the White House’s vaccine mandates that put a shotgun blast into staffing levels all across the country. What hospital A should have done was match the pay and suck it up. It was stupid of them to deny that, though they probably didn’t know how many they were going to lose, but still really dumb to shoot yourself in the foot like that
@@eddiehuff7366 No, he did not order the workers to keep working at Hospital A. If the workers wanted to work anywhere else, they could. This was NOT a violation of the 13th Amendment. Didn't you listen to Lehto explain all of this in his earlier videos about this case?
@@50jakecs it might not have been outright violation but they were trying to send that message anyway. The fact you ignore that paints you as disingenuous and probably part of thedacare legal team.
The restraining order and the lawsuit didn't say the employees had to stay and work at hospital A, it was about trying to keep hospital B from hiring them. And who knows what the judge was thinking? He might have looked at it and said this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but since it's Friday and the hearing will be Monday I'll just go ahead and issue the order for the weekend to throw the spotlight on the case. Would it have made the news if he hadn't issued the order?
The question wasn't "Can you match this offer", but "Will you match this offer". I am absolutely sure that the hospital COULD have matched the offer. The issue was that the hospital WOULD not match the offer. I admit that I would love to see more people leave that first hospital.
If ThedaCare is going to hire from traveling agencies it's going to cost them a lot more than if they had just matched the offer the employees received from Ascension.
One good thing about this outcome is that their attempt to intimidate FUTURE employees FAILED miserably. Now, future employees know they need not be afraid, since the hospital will not dare do this again.
ThedaCare lost a lot more than the case and some trauma center staff. I feel like the national coverage will have longer implications for their bottom line for a time.
@@niyablake Exactly. If they're this petty about losing staff after being clearly uncompetetive with wages and benefits, imagine other "cost saving" measures they may have. I also bet there was some internal turmoil telling them to stop if they have any semblance of a success/profit sharing plan.
@@IanBPPK I can;'t believe the lawyers or some one that handles PR did not say do not do this . Now they are ares hocked at peoples reaction . Damn lucky this did not spark a larger mass exodus.
would you want to have your health needs taken care of there? knowing what you know now, they obviously do not put patient care at the top of their list.
I will argue one thing Steve. Hospital A didn't say they couldn't match it. They said it wasn't worth the money to try and match it. There is a HUGE difference. The first one says they didn't have the money to do it. The second one says they don't value the employees enough to care about keeping them.
One of the issues that would arise when "matching the other hospitals offer" is that once the rest of the employees in the original hospital heard of the rise in pay or better conditions, there would be considerable unrest and an expectation that the improved conditions would be available to all of the staff there. That could be a considerable cost.
@@jwboatdesignsNot necessarily. In the healthcare field most raises are relatively small but regular and the hospital would probably deny any more raises to those who felt cheated for that reason. But hey, with the money the hospital saved, after paying their lawyers, they can pay 3-4x the pay to hire travel nurses and pay overtime to the staff that are left.
My favorite copyright attorney read the whole court documents including the response from hospital B. You got it 100% correct. I can't imagine the CEO of the hospital arguing that point.
You tell the truth so much which is never in the media. It is so funny how companies love using the "at-will" to get rid of employees when firing someone but don't accept it when employees leave.
In another market, it might have worked. But now with a _MASSIVE_ shortage of nurses, it will backfire. Welcome to no notice and no notification of who their future employer is. Employees will clean out all personal items in the days leading up. At the end of the shift before signing off they'll tell their boss "Hey, I'm done. Better get someone to cover my next shift."
I don't even see the scare factor. This was a unique situation where all the employees were quitting around the same time AND they were changing jobs to the same hospital. Why would a single employee leaving Thedacare care about what happened in this case?
@@50jakecs it wasn't so much about intimidating employees, it was about intimidating other healthcare corps - other hospitals. if you want to poach our staff with higher wages, better treatment then that means to keep them we'll have to pay more. if other hospitals know they'll be sued successfully for upsetting the status quo for wages/hours/working conditions then thedacare doesn't have to do shit - the courts will do their dirty work for them - and it continues on its merry way nursing the shareholders.
That judge also needs to be taken to task. The fact that something we all understand as long as we’ve been working is suddenly not treated the exact way 300 million people have been explained at every single HR/hiring meeting is not scary it’s disturbing. A sign of what’s to come. I’ve been right about too much the last 6 years.
Truthfully, the Judge put this in a national spotlight and likely prevented it from happening again. Bring me a stupid lawsuit, I may just grant it for a weekend and let you deal with the fallout.
@@juztyn00 If the judge brought it into the spotlight, it was because of his horrific decision to grant the temporary order. If I was one of the employees affected, I would be filing a complaint against him. WHATEVER his reasoning, there was no legal justification to grant it.
It's so odd that hospitals won't give a meaningful raise to their employees, but offer "travelling" personnel three ir four times the pay, month after month, temp fill after temp fill.
Thedacare was suing Ascension. The filing was basically saying that Ascension had conspired to poach their trauma team and claimed they hadn't been given adequate time to find replacements which would cause harm to patients. This appears to be a lie according to the former employees since they had several months in the case of at least 2 of the employees to find replacements. The judge enforcing a temporary ruling makes sense in that case.
How much money, Time and Reputation was wasted vs. Paying those skilled employees to keep them did it cost? And then they wine like a stuck Hog about "Social Media"... Disgusting...
Seems to me that the hospital that started the whole thing should itself be sued for malicious prosecution. They were too stingy to pay their workers what they are worth. They tried to enforce their will through the court system. In the end, would any reasonable person want to work under such a hostile environment? Would any right thinking employer want employees who clearly did not want to be there? Not a pretty picture.
This sounds like Mountian Health. We had 2 hospitals Cabell and St Marys. Our leaders let Cabell buy St Marys and then Cabell sold to Mountian Health Network. Our skilled labor are leaving in droves and they can't find any new hires. So now they are hiring traveling nurses paying them double and don't get to dictate their shifts.
What some here call a rant, I call passion. If I needed a pro to argue on my behalf, it would someone like you. Thanks for caring so much on behalf of the little guys.
We know that the hospital CEO is lying, because he had a simple way to accomplish his stated goal that didn’t require legal action. He could have payed the workers a fair wage. I’d be concerned about using ThedaCare. When employees can leave as a group for better pay, you must not be paying a competitive wage. So I wonder how many of their employees have their names in at other places already. It would seem that the only employees they’d retain would be those lacking the skills or ambition to be hired elsewhere.
He would not have to have pay a fair wage - all he had to do is offering permanent contracts with stated resignation regulation like two weeks notice. But as that would have gone both ways, that was asking too much. Sure, they could have not signed the contract, preferring the at will employment, but that would had been indicative of a systemic problem. (At which point negations could start to hold the employees)
This is predictably what will always happen when a hospital prioritizes lawyers over nurses. The administrators running the hospital have clearly reached their level of Peter Principle incompetence.
I've watched all three of this series and there is one thing that gets me. Everywhere I go, regular news, social media, people in the street, etc. the topic is "Why don't people want to go back to work". These people did want to work and found someone willing to pay well for their skills. They even offered hospital A a chance to retain them. This shows exactly the answer to the question. People do want to work, they just don't want to be exploited and bullied. I only wish Steve's views had been in the millions.
I wouldn't be surprised that people will no longer choose to go to a hospital that has an attitude of preventing someone from leaving or providing a matching offer. How can you trust them to give you good care if they are concerned more about saving money.
@Steve Lehto. Thank you Steve for keeping us informed on this saga. I appreciate your opinion and interpretations. Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
Let's not forget the despicable role the judge played in all of this! Much of this could have been avoided if he hadn't entertained this craziness in the first place. What a complete idiot...Sheesh!
I am from Tennessee, which is an at-will employment state as well. What that means is that employers enjoy keeping their workers insecure about their job out of fear that they will be fired. It is really about controlling workers. You know that control is the reason, because when employees gain any kind of power (like these medical professionals did by leveraging the new offer from a competing hospital) employers use every tool they can, like suing to keep workers from going to a new hospital, to keep the game rigged in their favor. I'm glad the judge made the right decision here!
Steve my wife works for a law firm but you are now her favorite attorney. I called her in while watching this episode to check out your set and she immediately noticed your Blue October shirt. She lives and breathes their music. Goes to every show when in town as a band or Furstenfeld solo. I also ran across you this past weekend in the copper mining documentary. Keep up the good work!!
I guess since their attempt to use the courts to intimidate employees didn't pan out there's no points to the suit. That said I'm sure it sent a message to their current employees - be interesting to know which message they took. Either it was "run away" or "if I leave they'll harm me so I'll stay." Hoping it's the former until the leadership at that hospital face consequences for their clown show.
This case doesn't even have an intimidation factor. In this case, all of the employees were leaving around the same time so there was a unique argument that Thedacare made that Ascension "poached" the employees. If just one person is leaving, why would this case scare them? I still don't know why Thedacare thought this lawsuit was a good idea.
@@50jakecs even if this was a out and out malicious poaching the at will status makes all of that moot. For all we care the 2nd hospital can poach all the staff of the first one since the at will status makes everything else irrelevant. There is no none competition and I'm not sure if there was a agreement that the hospital took over the role of school debt. If a company can fire people at will people can leave at will
Thank you for the follow up. Mr.Steve Lehto you made great points. Three cheers for the employees at will, as it seems there was no ill intent in giving their notice but only trying to improve their situation through opportunity. They had more ethics offering to stay with matching pay than any of the lawyers hired by the hospital. There is a big difference between the working class and what is construed as professionals. Great job. Cheers!
Their claim, that they will compensate those workers for the lost day(s) of work, doesn't absolve the hospital from the emotional damage, that they have caused to the workers. If I was one of those workers, I would sue for compensatory damages, for the emotional harm, as well as punitive damages.
The losing hospital should now be liable for intention infliction of emotional damage, attempted extortion, SLAPping, and restraint of trade. And the officers of that hospital should also be sued as private persons as well for breach of fiduciary duty to their own organization.
No, no, no. Why does everybody on the internet think they are legal experts. 1. Intentional infliction of emotional damage is a specific lawsuit when someone acts so outrageously with the intent to cause emotional damage. For example, somebody kidnaps you and keeps threatening to kill you. This is not that type of case. 2. What extortion? Thedacare didn't threaten or try to blackmail the employees. 3. This is not a SLAPP lawsuit. Look up "John Oliver SLAPP". He's got a great show explaining what SLAPP lawsuits are. But basically they are frivolous lawsuits intended to prevent somebody else from publishing or making negative claims about somebody by scaring them with legal fees to defend against the SLAPP lawsuit. 4. Restraint of trade is a possible claim but the employees were only prevented from working at the new hospital for 4 days. The damages (lost wages) are probably less than the cost of the lawsuit. 5. Breach of fiduciary duty requires meeting a high standard where the officers acted in a way for their own benefit to the detriment of the hospital. Now, they could be fired for making a poor management decision, but since the officers probably thought they were acting in the best interests of the hospital, they did not breach their fiduciary duty. Please learn about the law first before posting. You're just spreading bad information.
I'm still not sure what Thedacare was thinking. They knew they had a really high chance of losing in court since it is an employment-at-will state so why wouldn't they just spend the money on the employees on retention bonuses until replacements are hired instead of wasting money on lawyers.
They're going to have to expend more effort now in filling those vacancies. It sounds like there's no shortage of positions, and if I were qualified and had two offers I know which one I'd reject. I hope that the first hospital specializes in treating gunshots to the foot.
I've seen a redit post that showed a traveling nurse agency was looking for nurses to go to Theda Care at $6800 a week. The agency fees, travel, lodging and per diem are on top of that for Theda Care to pay.
I worked with a healthcare headhunter in the past. It is crazy how much hospitals pay headhunters to find hospital staff, it is almost like they are creating their own shortages because the headhunters are getting so much of what should be going to the employees.
this whole thing seems so ludicrous on so many levels. to my mind, quite above the question of why their request to have the alternative offer matched wasn't entertained, is that if these employees are so vital to patient care and the operation of the hospital why weren't they enjoying regular contracted terms of employment in the first place? it sounds like theyre skilled technical staff, theyre not stacking shelves at a supermarket. if you dont value and reward your employees appropriately you can have no expectation of their loyalty.
It's because hospitals do not view employees below Chief (something, Executive, Nursing, Financial) Officer as valued members of the company. They're expendable.
business doesn't see it that way. employees are best understood to be cannon fodder, at best. HR is there to protect the business from the workers any way(s) it can get away with... That's how it works.
I'm a truck driver and I was told during orientation at a company that it costs $5000 -to put a driver through orientation when first hiring them. The company knows that most drivers will quit after a month. Just like the hospital that would rather pay lawyer fees then give their employees a raise, trucking companies seem to prefer wasting money on hiring drivers that will quit after a month instead of hiring better quality drivers and paying them more so they'll stay .
Thank you for continuing this story. I just love corporate crybabies, always wanting their cake and eating it too. They like being able to dismiss someone quickly without notice, and when it happens to benefit an employee, oh hell no.. I think the hospital should have to compensate the former employees. The Judge should charge them for bringing up a court order and for the time of the Judge and paperwork. CEO blaming it on Social Media, HAHA! Where do they get these guys to run a hospital? Wally Mart rejects?
The fact that they actually tried to play it off as “we were just trying to seek help for an orderly transition of a large number of employees”, when they had numerous instances of being able to do this themselves-and resolve it. They just didn’t because it would cost them extra money, not to mention the cost to pay an attorney to bring this matter to the court probably cost more than paying those employees for their time.
I have to assume the employees gave two weeks notice which is traditional if you don't want to burn your job references. So probably Thedacare had two weeks to solve the problem.
@@jyvben1520 In nursing 2 weeks is expected. Nursing management may require 4 or 8 weeks. The issue is these companies will not hesitate to file complaints with the state against your license. The state does'nt respect any nurse. Also if you give two weeks you are usually eligible for rehire after that shit head who drove you out quits or gets fired. Its just thinking ahead. If you live somewhere that only has two hospitals and you burn both of them you won't work in that town again.
@@jyvben1520 if that’s what the hospital was trying to create, then don’t hire at will employees is all I can think of. They can’t have cake and eat it too.
So would love to hear what the remaining employees are saying at hospital A! Hospitals are notoriously bad treating employees. I’ve worked and retired from this same environment. They treat us terrible. So glad I’m not working anymore. The right kind of management should say they can’t do what we do but will make it easier for us to do our jobs. That’s proper management. From long hours, inadequate supplies, forced overtime too many pts to care for, to not enough time to even eat lunch or go to the bathroom….terrible…one more thing. RN’s at my former hospital wore beepers and timers of some type to monitor how quickly they answered a pt’s call button! Awful.
Seems to me that the judge was being ridiculous to strong arm the workers and hospital to 'come to an agreement' with hospital A. We need to be clear more often that a particular judge is doing something awful as in this case. The temp injunction was a vile move even tho it was only over a weekend. That's one crappy weekend of worry and stress all cuz the judge was gutless in the most ridiculous way.
The thing is the judge probably wanted to get support from the community by keeping the hospital staff until replacements come. Make it a help maintain local hospitals slogan but the news got out and people got pissed. Maintaining the local hospitals at the risk of slavery is bs in the public view.
It sounds like the employees leaving would risk Thedacare's Level II Trauma Center rating, etc. When management decided they didn't want to pay more to keep these employees on board, nobody realized this would come into play and so they filed the lawsuit in hopes that some employees would remain or keep them on board long enough for them to rectify that. Incompetent management.
Also some people think that the staff is bluffing to get a pay raise and call them on it. They failed the bet and couldn't handle taking the loss. Now they will lose more hiring new people at a high premium where they could've just taken the market rate
@Add a name to continue, the employees notified the hospital they were leaving in *December.* The hospital they were leaving waited until their *February* date of departure to sue. *That hospital had PLENTY of time to hire replacements!* (…or “rectify the situation,” as you say) The *employees* put NO ONE in danger. The hospital placed *EVERYONE* in jeopardy.
I found your channel earlier today because someone on FB said a lawyer did a video about the indestructible mailbox, and several hours later, I'm still watching your videos. I hope you get the same level of success of Legal Eagle because you are so good and thorough. I love your videos!
I am stoked! The judge never should've allowed the injunction go forth in oral argument, "at will workers was an imposition the workers accepted, not initiated". To even consider a corporate argument, in the face of a clear and obvious imposition, accepted by People, with no real choice, is not even close to "good law". I've been laid off in similar circumstances, not medical worker, electronics industry, the attitude was always "take it or leave it" unless you leave it and it hurts us, a little. I starved a couple months in Riverside, Ca, for similar cause.
@@jhoughjr1 sigh can;t sue a judge unless they make an order they could not legally do. Note legally is not the same as stupid or incorrect ruling . IE they can;t not order some in the galley to take a drug test .
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Employees have been leaving in a wholesale basis due to the environment created by the CEO. They need to get rid of HIM.
It's a suit that never should have been filed in the first place. Had those workers had any day they didn't work/get paid, they should sue Thetacare for tortious interference.
Employers still don't care! Case in point a couple weeks ago a bad snow storm was going through. Road conditions were deteriorating. 90% of our work crew went to the higher ups asking to go home. They asked the even higher ups and they said no. Said they weren't going to shut down. We all decided to leave early after stopping - got hit with a point - and reduced pay for all week -- along with knowing the company don't care about us. (Union Job) Plows were pulled off roads. Roads 100% ice covered. And we got in excess a foot of snow. 15 minute car ride home at night took an hour. Even in a pandemic and people leaving jobs -- companies still don't care about the employee. Where is the humanity?
Steve, I appreciate your work! Law is not at all my field but your breadth of knowledge and experience tackling these real words scenarios with your commentary makes it just stick for someone like myself. You will be appreciated publicly one day!
ThedaCare administrators badly miscalculated, this has already cost them and now they've harmed their reputation and opened themselves up for more staff problems and lawsuits. The smartest people in the room often aren't.
@@50jakecs Possible lawsuits coming from the seven former Thedacare employees for interfering with their employment with Ascension. It's just speculation on my part, but there are always attorneys out there willing to take on institutions like Thedacare. Disclaimer: I'm Not a lawyer. Don't play one on TV.
God forbid that the hospital administration takes a pay cut to retain employees. Those huge six figure salaries are hard to give up for the greater good.
Steve ... you got it right. At least one reporting source got it wrong. That story was amplified by social media, claiming that the judge's temp injunction was against the workers. That story ignored the fact that the suit was between the two hospitals. Oh well ...
Workers were not in the original claim, but the second hospital was given 2 choices in the TRO, since the second hospital was not even invited to the emergency briefing on Friday.. Either hold of the working of the new employees until after the Monday hearing OR provide 2 workers (not necessarily from the new workers) to first hospital while the case was being processed. There was no info in the TRO of how much the workers would make or how they would charge back for the supplied workers. They chose the first option and dropped a FIRE opposition paper and the TRO was quickly removed, as they showed no harm was being done to hospital A, and the only harm was done to the employees that were not on the lawsuit and hospital b.
This situation confused me on many levels. I live in new Hampshire, which is an at will employment state. ANY place can just tell you work is terminated, anytime, for any reason. Same works with the employee, we can just say "I am going home now, forever" , no 2 weeks notice or anything Employee Poaching is not illegal , due to the at will status. I know of at least 1 situation where a friend was working and a competitor went in for coffee and actively spent about 5 minutes recruiting her for his company. While she was on the clock. We cannot sue each other. There are backfires though, such as holiday pay acrued is NOT guaranteed to be paid out upon leaving/termination This was such an interesting concept to me, to sue another company for "poaching" employees
And the best part of this hospital A vs B is those still at hospital A know they too are likely underpaid and I'd bet they all have started to see what other jobs are out there. Would be surprised if a second wave of hospital employees quit there soon.
Good job on this issue Steve. Although I am not a lawyer I have studied mercantile law in Australia and our laws and terminologies vary a little, I still enjoyed the argument you presented. Keep up the good work.
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.15 (1/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TLBjiHvkKtE/mqdefault.jpg)
The part he said out loud: "he simply wanted to keep his hospital running" The unsaid part: "and maintain executive bonuses by underpaying the people on the front lines". F this guy.
Right you are!
I would think that a level 2 trauma/stroke care facility would charge rates according to the talent they have. I wouldn’t want to pay major league prices for minor league care. Thedacare may lose its status and ability to charge the rates they have charged in the past. It’s their own fault for letting at-will (free agent) talent walk away.
I wish people would stop calling hospitals in the 1st world the front lines. They're not the front lines of anything. Front lines is a combat zone where you regularly are in combat
I dont want to hear but rona, that shit has a 99.9% survival rate for anyone that's not fat or old, and when they're factored in its a 99.9% survival rate.
@@deusvult6920 I think op meant in the sence of all companies having a front line. Every company I have worked for has called the front line the part that deals with the public and/or does the actual work. Everyone else would be management or paper pushers.
Bingo! That's the real problem: For-profit medical care. The medical staff are not getting paid, but someone is making a profit off of this! Why should anyone make a profit off of the illness and misfortune of others? Cover costs ... sure ... absurd profits? Really?! Isn't that what vampires do?
Forget the CEO, I still can't believe a judge in a free country would dare grant an injunction preventing free at will employees from seeking alternate employment. That company hired employees, it *did not* purchase *slaves* and this whole debacle is a national embarrassment.
Liberal judge would be my guess. As intelligent as Biden.
You haven't looked at the whole picture presented to the judge. ThedaCare was telling the truth that stroke care and some trauma care would be disrupted when those employees left. That could mean someone would die if he didn't issue the TRO.
@@christianlibertarian5488 that is a theta care problem, that is *not* the employee's problem. They have already willfully terminated their employment, they went through all the proper procedures to give Theta the opportunity to not lose their employees, Theta care made the decision that it would be cheaper to let them go and try to hire other people for lower pay rates. If Theta cares so little about their employees, I guarantee you they care equally little about their patients. And Theta isn't the only one providing these services, those employees were going somewhere - the patients could go there too. So don't give me that "they were risking people's lives!" *BULLSHIT* excuse to try and entrap people into defacto slavery, whether the span of time would've been 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years it is pure nonsense.
@@kuuryotwo5153 I am defending the judge's decision to grant the temporary restraining order over the weekend. The judge was presented with the possible injury to patients in all of Northeastern Wisconsin if he did nothing. So he tried to give them a weekend to figure out a way to cover the service. That is not unreasonable.
ThedaCare can go catheterize itself. I have since found out that they had weeks to act, but did nothing, then tried to force themselves on the workers.
My guess its the pandemic. He obviously only held it up for two non working days. It could have been a political hot potatoe if it had gone differently. Cover your ass.
The only irreparable harm for Thedacare is that nobody will ever willingly apply to work there because any google search will bring up all they need to know about their staffing practices.
I do hope that is what happens, then they may be forced to raise their wages just to hire new staff.
do not worry. They will create new press about a new issue. Open a new wing, fire an executive for misconduct, anniversaries...
Or they could simply change their name and claim they are under new and improved managed.
@@sarowie Your last point is probably the most likely outcome.
@@stoopingfalcon891 Bad general seldom suffer for their bad mistakes. The lower level soldiers always do.
@@jaywiscon3145 Well put.
I think this could be easily added to the, "Top 10 Ways Companies Tell Their Employees They Hate Them". Good luck putting THIS genie back in the bottle for new hires and retention.
They don't care. Only the stock price matters. If it collapses they will sell out to some other monopolistic entity. Maybe a hedge fund.
I was a Catscan Technologist and pulled call at nights, I lived an hour away. Someone who is having a stroke to find out if it is a bleed vs a blood clot you have about 30 mins. So my boss wanted me to spend the night at the hospital when I was on call so I would be close enough to meet the 30 min window, I said "if you pay me I will." He said no! I said no back, I was not going to sleep on a cot in the department in case they need me without being paid for this situation. He said We will pay you if you get a patient to do and clock in, but while you sleep no. I told him I would be at home. He said, "you are a Christian don't you care about people?" I told him that the bible says the Workman is worth his hire. Since you are too cheap to pay someone to work at night God will be judging you, not me. I have moved on but they now have 24 hour techs on staff. These hospitals get away with "CALL' and make slaves out of their employees. From Nurse, to techs, to even IT People often putting them on salary so they don't have to pay them an extra dime for being on call. It is what I named the "call loop hole" to make slaves of employees.
I live in Oregon. They have ruled that "on call" is "working". Many companies are getting a retirement gift of a wage lawsuit as people retire. A fair number are winning the back pay to cover those "on call" hours.
A friend of mine worked at an eye hospital and was ambitious, he applied for a better paid position in the same health care authority and would now be loosing his on call payment. One of his co- workers said that he would miss the on call. His reply was F*** the on call.
My former employer (the government) calls the break room the "swing"room. Back in the day (before unions) workers came to work at a specific time, but rather than working, would sit in the swing room (off the clock) and wait for work to happen. If/when there was work, you'd clock in and start getting paid. It was called swinging, but it was, for all intents and purposes, on call. At my job it ended over 50 years ago. So sad that a version of it is still happening.
Roy: this people have no shame..what a bunch of shit, if you are "on call" that means you are working !
Can we recognize the real problem here: For-profit medical care. The medical staff are not getting paid, but someone is making a profit off of this! Why should anyone make a profit off of the illness and misfortune of others? Cover costs ... sure ... absurd profits? Really?! Isn't that what vampires do?
What stuns me the most in this story is that a judge took the complaint and didn't dismissed it on the spot
EXACTLY. To me that is the biggest issue of all.
Not really he did it over a weekend. Not the end of the world
I feel the judge should at least have required the lawyers for ThedaCare to explain how granting the injunction would help anybody, _without_ assuming that it would coerce the workers to return to ThedaCare.
Those who say it isn't a big issue cause the judge did the injunction over the weekend should consider that it is an AT WILL STATE. That judge basically ignored the rights of the employee's who would have been affected the most, and any hospital that allows a patient to die cause of its negligence is not the fault of the employee's who gave advance notice asked for a counter offer and when told no left when that date of notice came. The judge ignored all of that at the Friday hearing giving Thedacare an unjust advantage to possibly intimidate those employee's who were not purposefully named in the suit to rejoin Thedacare or risk not working for potentially years while the case works it way through a slow court system. It is neither the moral or ethical responsibility of former employees to be concerned with the staffing issues at a former employer hospital or not it is the responsibility of the managers HR and admin of said entity. But according to this judge it doesn't work that way, in my opinion he caught wing of the backlash and figured out he fucked up thats why he vacated the order.
@@chrisdin4109 "We only wanted to try and make you in to slaves over the weekend. What's the big deal?" Interesting hill to fight on.
This was my hospital. Because of this lawsuit, we have chosen to transition to the other hospital, technically the clinic, but one owns the other so its the same net effect. Also, a client, a donor to the suing hospital, made it clear they will no longer be donating to this cause.
Hopefully the new hospital gets their generosity
This is the kind of backlash Thedacare deserves.
Love it!!
So people are dying now at that hospital?
@@everythingpony they have to hire new people with probably higher pay to attract them or transfer their customers elsewhere
Several employees leaving at the same time is nearly always a sign of poor employee treatment/management.
It's likely they realized they're sending a bad message to the rest of their employees, undermining morale.
I expect them to have further high loss of employees.
Can you imagine how bad service workers probably have it? Bad bosses and the public that treats them like excrement and then stiffs them on tips.
Typically you see multiple help wanted positions at an employer. Then a week or two later the managers quit after being worked over 120 hours a week as cover, then finally the top nursing officer quits because she is now responsible for covering all positions 24/7. Its a sure sign of a real winner. Don't even think of going there for 6 months.
@@rogersmith7396 Saw one place where over 50% of the facility nursing staff quit. No winner, no winner, no chicken dinner.
@@Absaalookemensch I've been in job interviews where 1 minute in I got up and left the Director of Nursing was so toxic. It takes them a while to figure out they can't fire their way to a full staff. Sometimes they call me for the interview. Can't really explain why you call someone in then shit all over them. Some sort of mental problem I would guess. The one every time I would open my moth to respond to her she would cut me off and heap abuse on me. After the third time I just quit responding and started to look at my watch for an opportunity to leave. Some places have a corporate office which tells them to interview but the DON has already promised the job to a friend or relative so the interview is like 10 minutes of silence.
@@rogersmith7396 I just hired a nurse and was so glad he recently moved to the area buying a house. I look forward to working with him for the next several years, until I retire.
I've had a bit of turn-over issues, but it's because of spousal relocations. Otherwise we keep staff for many years.
I have no idea what is wrong with administration or supervisors, why they drive away good staff.
I work my tail off telling my staff how good glad we are to have them and do things to retain them.
It ain't rocket science.
Hospital "A" was possibly hoping to intimidate it's current employees and discourage them from seeking better jobs elsewhere....which it seems now backfired in a most magnificent manner! Sometimes Karma DOES bite the offenders in the A$$
I assure you their lawsuit was also aimed at discouraging competitors from offering better wages, benefits, etc.
@@timdowney6721 anyone hiring manager who's not stupid knows they won't sue again. That was an expensive example and they can't afford it, reputation and money wise.
@@timdowney6721 Perhaps....but that certainly backfired in volcanic fashion as well!
except it did not backfire. it worked. not well but it worked. they got a 3 day TRO
Imagine your a min wage worker making $15 an hour or less. your rent is due in a week and the employer can muck you up for a week with a BS suit you know they will loose but your still out a weeks pay and not getting evicted. yeah the chilling effect of this kind of action is real. unless action is taken to make it clear the judge violated the law and other judges were put on notice not to do this type of crap. they won.
Possibly ? Did you view the same video I did ?
The truly obscene part of this case is that a judge actually entertained it for any length of time.
Political. Power lies with money. Hospitals have money. The judge probably just wanted a way to humor the hospital that would allow him to say he did his due dilligence to get the parties to settle the matter themselves. Then as soon as it was obvious that wouldn't happen he did what he probably knew had to be done.
He was fishing for a bribe
gee.. I wonder if the judge is republican
@@dano336 Nope. Appointed by a Democrat.
@@ghost307 A... district Court Judge was appointed by a Democrat?
This is an elected Judge, not an appointee.
Why would you lie?
Up to now the "At Will" laws have almost exclusively benefitted only the employers. In this new employment landscape, where employees are suddenly in a position of leverage, these laws may actually start to benefit employees once in a while.
About time it does!
And as that happens, count on Republicans to impose conditions on employees leaving. The GOP is all about enriching corporations at the expense of the lower and middle classes.
I wouldn't say that "at will" has almost exclusively benefitted only employers. Everybody knows somebody that just got fed up with their job and said "Yo, screw this place, I quit!" and walked out one second later. However, I do agree it generally benefits employers more than individual employees, such as in layoff situations.
@@timdowney6721 um and you think democrat's aren't? look at who the corp $ mostly goes to when it comes to politician's, spoiler its not gop.
@@arbiter1 The GOP also has the science deniers, q-muppets and the "jewish space lasers" lady on the "plus" side though ;) /S
My wife is an RN (BSN actually), for once they are able to write their own ticket. They've been fiscally abused by the medical profession for decades.
There are a lot of nurses out there willing to work as travel nurses or contract, and that is who and what that hospital is going to have to deal with.
Suck it up. Treat folks right and pay them they stay, don't, they leave. End of story.
The TRO should never have been issued. A quick glance at it should have been enough for a judge to determine it was a waste of time. Now that it has been dismissed, the ThedaCare lawyers should be sanctioned for filing it in the first place.
Also, the judge is a nutjob with a checkered past, he needs to be forcibly retired with extreme prejudice.
Correct. It wasn't even based on any law. It was an arbitrary restriction placed by the court on citizens
Imagine going for a temporary restraining order and the judge says "naw, we don't have time for fact finding or allowing the other party to respond" - - dismissed. 🙄
Nobody likes thedacare around here.
Those employees lost a lot of money in time doing this period. I think they are owed for this low down trick.
@@mrfunnylookinhayes9088 really? Who did you talk to?
I Bet the CEO still thinks he deserves 50 times the salary as anyone else in the hospital, because "he has to make the hard choices"
Exactly except the ceo makes 300 times the average employee
Hard choices like, "Should I have the jelly doughnut, or the éclair?".
like destroying her worker's morale and recruitment efforts
Those 1's are easy, "YES". They all belong to same trade association, too.@@thomasgirty6397
These stories truly tell the story of our times.
Major corporations that should be profitable in the worst of times are having to resort to every imaginable dirty trick and method of coercion to force people to work for them.
Make no mistake where the competitive wages went: lining the pockets of the same people who decided they'd rather pay lawyers to sue than raise wages and benefits for the actual workers.....
Spot on!
Exactly!
A-f@cking-men, my bruh.
its the true definition of fascism.
Thing is, the hospital *is* profitable. Penny-pinching isn't a guaranteed sign of financial hardship.
The lawsuit is over now, but the damage to their reputation will last for years. What a debacle.
Their needs to legal consequences for the first hospital for filing a frivolous lawsuit that seems to have been a punishment for the former employees and to scare the current employees from leaving in the future.
I don't get how the judge passed an injunction and why the judge isn't called to account also.
Please keep in mind that the second hospital was not sued. Hospital A sued their former employees. In a state that passed the At Will law to keep their pay low and their power to unionize.
@@mrfunnylookinhayes9088 You're factually incorrect. The lawsuit was Thedacare, Inc. v. Ascension NE Wisconsin, Inc. The injunctive relief granted was to prevent Ascension from employing the workers, or in the alternative to provide staff to Thedacare while a transition was made.
@@mrfunnylookinhayes9088 Did you watch this video? Lehto explained that the lawsuit was against the new hospital, not the workers.
It sounds like hospital A not only lost the original seven, but also lost at least two more employees and a significant financial donor on top of all the bad press that will likely cause future job seekers to carefully consider whether they'd care to work for this company.
Maine is an @ will state. I was working at a hospital and it was during my first 90 days they decided to " let me go". They gave me the option of " resigning". I told them I had to think about it.
Lol resigning meant I could not apply for unemployment benefits or so they thought.
They fought the unemployment benefits lying twice the first time they lied they had not received the notice for the hearing ( large hospital several people worked in HR but no one had seen the hearing notice ) and during the second hearing which took place ( months later I ran into my immediate supervisor out shopping. She apologized, told me she had been demoted and was looking after 25 years for a new job). I hugged her and said " you folks did me a favor"
As an "at will" hospital employee I was very interested in your earlier videos. I found the information clear and well presented. I'm not sure who didn't understand what was going on but I'm grateful for the info. Cheers!
I believe the people that read the caption and don't watch the video before they start squawking.
Check out "Lawful Masses with Leonard French". He reads the Ascension rebuttal to the TRO.
I’m an at will employee and had a non-compete. I left my prior position for a better paying one simply by staying outside the non complete radius. My prior employer threatened to sue my new employer as well and similar to this it just got dismissed. Case and point, these are useless and desperate scare tactics.
@@fernandezfarm Unless the Employer provides substantial training for an employee, non-compete clauses should be illegal.
@@fernandezfarm those non-compete agreements are generally unenforceable because they rarely, if ever, provide the worker compensation for the time they would have to wait before they could get hired by a competitor.
How can Thedacare have any confidence in their CEO at this point? He’s made a total fool of himself and the hospital on a national level.
International - I'm in the UK, and I think he put his company over a barrel and made them take it backwards with a Briar bush.
Sorry, but haven't you noticed in the last few years, the worse a corporation does, the BIGGER the CEO's bonuses are? If ThedaCare goes belly-up, his bonus will be even bigger!! Just look at recent history. Much of the bailout money corporations got went to bonuses!
The fact that this even went this far is very troubling.
The law suit was dropped?!
Hella nah! The workers and hospital B should sue hospital A for all their money, because you can't just come like that and lie.
Literally, abuse and slavery, lying in the court of law, claiming falsehood, simply because they have the power of expensive lawyers and abusing that power.
Nah, they need to be punished with punitive damages of tens of millions of dollars, and a fine of similar value, to set a precedent, and have it clear.
YOU DON'T DO THIS ABUSE !
in wi my home state for maney maney years bizzness first f evoryone else.
I agree with his first video that a bond should have been paid by hospital A for salaries of all the employees involved in this suit and if hospital A couldn’t come up with a solid case as to why they should be allowed to retain the employees, the employees retain the bond. Start the bond at $150k. That was how the judge should have handled this decision.
I so hope this isn't the end of this story. Thedacare needs to get raked over the coal for even trying this.
The affected employees should file suit against Thedacare.
@@johnmcginnis5201 On what basis? Their start date at the new hospital was delayed by 4 days I think. I agree Thedacare acted stupidly but that doesn't mean there's a lawsuit there or a lawsuit even worth pursuing.
@@johnmcginnis5201 Since they were "compensated"(paid) they can't as they can no longer prove they were financially harmed.
@@happygardener28 but hospital B has in fact been harmed
@@happygardener28 The employees lost a day of pay. It has been reported that Theda Care offered to pay them that day, but any smart employee would respond with a fuck you because it no doubt would come with a clause to not sue.
The employees could sue for tortuous interference. They have a right to work, and Theda Care successfully did delay their employment a day. The punitive damages should be intense. The worker to executive ratio on any jury isn't in the CEO's favor.
Sounds like hospital A's board should exercise its right to fire the CEO. Social media actually got this perfectly
Wanna bet the CEO has a contract with a "golden parachute" unless fired for cause; where for cause is defined not to include this scenario? Bet embezzlement of hospital funds or losing too many employment discrimination cases or losing Medicare eligibility would be for cause. In fact holding a hard line on employee costs prob was one of the CEO's critical job responsibilities.
@@christophercripps7639 Uh, I would not take that bet! Spot on. And the rich wonder why 'eat the rich' is a thing. Forget left vs right; the struggle is the 99.5% against the rest of us.
ThedaCare did far more “damage” to themselves than the employees did, by making such a stink about the whole thing. How many potential employees would want to work at a place that will trash them if they seek employment elsewhere at a later date?
I’m afraid the only thing they learn is to make new employees sign a non-compete contract as part of the hiring process.
@@SteelHex noncompetes dont hold up well in court
@@SoloRenegade depends on the state. In California a non-compete is null and void. In New York (home of Wall Street) it is very enforceable.
@@SteelHex Guess it depends upon how it is argued. But I'd never let a noncompete stop me. Depending upon the person's career, it's not reasonable to ask them to abandon their skills for a set time. also, many have argued the noncompete is one-sided. In US, under contract law, you can't enter into contracts that aren't mutually beneficial. And when most employers demand noncompete by default, how can anyone take a different job in their industry? it's simply an unreasonable and one-sided demand that is forced upon employees with no real way to negotiate it.
@@SoloRenegade In California it’s plainly unenforceable by law, but in many other states it applies as long as it’s reasonable. A non-compete only needs to make it unprofitable for the employee to change jobs, either by imposing a financial penalty larger than most raises (but small enough to not offend the court), by imposing a time restriction long enough to be impractical for job change (but short enough to not kill a career), or simply by threat of litigation that forces the employee to spend on expensive lawyers. That $10K raise looks a lot less enticing if you have to spend $50K defending it in court.
"We will suffer irreparable harm if you let these workers leave!"
Words heard on many southern plantations in the late 19th century. Kinda sickening to hear them now as a paraphrase of a modern company's view on their 'workers'.
I think the term for their employees they are looking for rhymes with "Glaive"
wow, well said…
@@davidbarnett9312 Fool please. The wealthy will ways exist and rightfully so. When's the last time you heard about broke ass people creating jobs. As for America, the average American lives a far superior life to kings and captains of industry of a 100 years ago. Rockefeller himself couldn't get the dental care your average welfare queen gets today. No one has to be hungry in America unless they choose to be hungry. Same applies to homelessness. The average blue collar worker controls his environment, deciding if he's to hot or cold based on a whim. There's a lot to criticize, but America being shitty to average people is a pathetic joke.
@@jefflast9489 they may not be suffering but they get less compensation for their work than they deserve if you compare it to the compensation that the leadership gets
@@Tormonir Neither you or anyone else is entitled to wealthy people's money. They take enormous chances in the hopes of making huge gains, so they DESERVE what they've earned. If you want to put up your own money and make the bets and take the risks right along side them, there's nothing stopping you. I know for a fact you sure as hell wouldn't turn around and give it away to people you paid to do a job just because you feel like being a swell guy. I think it's great when some people become e obscenely wealthy, especially guys like Elon Musk. He takes the capital and plows it back into venture capitalism that has the potential to increase the standard of living for all mankind. That kind of innovation doesn't happen in your world of "I deserve it because I want it". By your way of thinking we would still be living in caves chucking rocks at sabertooth cats.
@@jefflast9489 I agree with you, with this caviat...I've worked in 4 different hospital labs over 38 years. Not many CEOs have taken any risks to get to their position. Most are medically uneducated, never make visits to the frontline departments and are fearful of taking questions from the staff level workers because they don't know the answers. All they seem to know is how to screw over the workers to meet their personnel budget goals. A few have legitimate intentions to make healthcare better, but most are looking out for themselves.
Unreal it took this long. Thedacare didn't even have standing to bring the suit in the first place, since employees aren't property and it's an at will state. Should have been immediately dismissed.
yeah, the judge made the wrong decision, also overturned his own decision or cancelled it ?
to me it sounds like the judge wanted to go home on Friday and didn't want to take the time to look at the case properly.
Exactly Steve. The employees actually gave Thedacare a chance to match the salary offer, but the hospital declined. They want to keep the technicians, but not willing to pay the market rate. Who gave them the right to force people to work at their rate?
Establishing the market rate is the discussion point being missed. It's not about smacking down the employees, they're inconsequential. It's about smacking down the hospital willing to pay more, and ThedaCare keeping their low established rate; THE established rate. How dear they interfere with the low rates currently paid with better offers. Maybe a lawsuit will make those smaller hospitals think twice about offering better salaries if it's going to cost them in court. After all, they can't take care of patients nearly as well. How could anyone NOT see they're more needed in the community over that smaller, lesser hospital... of course this brilliant plan is going to work... if ThedaCare had a face, insert surprised Pikachu face here. Ah, but the reward if it had worked.
And they had to give notice so it wasn't a surprise. Good Lord, the HR takes FOREVER to write a job description and bring in someone to interview at our research/hospital. And they don't screen them at all. Either forged certificates and or lies about experience.
The Judge should be kicked off the bench for even hearing this case.
It never ceases to amaze me how businesses refuse to hire replacements BEFORE the leaving employees are gone. I'm willing to guess not a single interview happened in that 6-week period. The only one putting patients "at risk" is the irresponsible management of the hospital.
putting patients at risk... Hmmm, business being what it is and the courts and govts and legislatures only too willing to kiss ass I am left remembering a thought: all things - products, materials, services - are commodities to be bought, sold, traded for the best profits possible. medical and nursing knowledge and skills are subject to this thinking. the employees only did what their (scumbag) employer would do - took a better deal.
Thedacare put patients at risk by not treating/remunerating their employees well-enough they would not want to seek work elsewhere. Their employees only followed thedacare's principles.
I worked in healthcare long enough to know that it is nearly impossible to find nursing staff, especially during Covid. Add into that the idiot in the White House’s vaccine mandates that put a shotgun blast into staffing levels all across the country. What hospital A should have done was match the pay and suck it up. It was stupid of them to deny that, though they probably didn’t know how many they were going to lose, but still really dumb to shoot yourself in the foot like that
The TRO should never have been issued in my opinion.
I agree, the judge broke the 13th amendment for 2 days until the hearing took place.
@@eddiehuff7366 No, he did not order the workers to keep working at Hospital A. If the workers wanted to work anywhere else, they could. This was NOT a violation of the 13th Amendment. Didn't you listen to Lehto explain all of this in his earlier videos about this case?
@@50jakecs it might not have been outright violation but they were trying to send that message anyway. The fact you ignore that paints you as disingenuous and probably part of thedacare legal team.
The restraining order and the lawsuit didn't say the employees had to stay and work at hospital A, it was about trying to keep hospital B from hiring them. And who knows what the judge was thinking? He might have looked at it and said this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but since it's Friday and the hearing will be Monday I'll just go ahead and issue the order for the weekend to throw the spotlight on the case. Would it have made the news if he hadn't issued the order?
@@robgm6926 i don't know, do frontline workers have to work on weekends?
The question wasn't "Can you match this offer", but "Will you match this offer".
I am absolutely sure that the hospital COULD have matched the offer.
The issue was that the hospital WOULD not match the offer.
I admit that I would love to see more people leave that first hospital.
If ThedaCare is going to hire from traveling agencies it's going to cost them a lot more than if they had just matched the offer the employees received from Ascension.
Thedacare could have just paid retention bonuses until replacements were hired. It happens all the time for key employees during layoffs and mergers.
@@50jakecs A retention bonus wasn't needed. The employees have said that matching of the offer would have kept them at Theda Care.
One good thing about this outcome is that their attempt to intimidate FUTURE employees FAILED miserably. Now, future employees know they need not be afraid, since the hospital will not dare do this again.
ThedaCare lost a lot more than the case and some trauma center staff. I feel like the national coverage will have longer implications for their bottom line for a time.
Would you want to work there ? Would want to get care there ?
@@niyablake Exactly. If they're this petty about losing staff after being clearly uncompetetive with wages and benefits, imagine other "cost saving" measures they may have. I also bet there was some internal turmoil telling them to stop if they have any semblance of a success/profit sharing plan.
@@IanBPPK I can;'t believe the lawyers or some one that handles PR did not say do not do this . Now they are ares hocked at peoples reaction . Damn lucky this did not spark a larger mass exodus.
would you want to have your health needs taken care of there? knowing what you know now, they obviously do not put patient care at the top of their list.
We can only hope. There should be PR backlash for poorly managing the hospital.
I will argue one thing Steve. Hospital A didn't say they couldn't match it. They said it wasn't worth the money to try and match it. There is a HUGE difference. The first one says they didn't have the money to do it. The second one says they don't value the employees enough to care about keeping them.
because in the long term they would wind up paying everyone more and not just the 7.
One of the issues that would arise when "matching the other hospitals offer" is that once the rest of the employees in the original hospital heard of the rise in pay or better conditions, there would be considerable unrest and an expectation that the improved conditions would be available to all of the staff there. That could be a considerable cost.
@@jwboatdesignsNot necessarily. In the healthcare field most raises are relatively small but regular and the hospital would probably deny any more raises to those who felt cheated for that reason.
But hey, with the money the hospital saved, after paying their lawyers, they can pay 3-4x the pay to hire travel nurses and pay overtime to the staff that are left.
@@jwboatdesignsI’m sure these weren’t the only people to leave and go to hospital b to make more money.
My favorite copyright attorney read the whole court documents including the response from hospital B. You got it 100% correct. I can't imagine the CEO of the hospital arguing that point.
I didnt know Liebowitz had a youtube channel
That is what they really think of the employees. These are professionals, highly trained and still no value to the organization
I have heard of favorite sports stars but a favorite copyright attorney that's nerding at a whole other level
@@sarahann530 it's just a reference to his catchphrase
@@pikapowns but it's true
You tell the truth so much which is never in the media. It is so funny how companies love using the "at-will" to get rid of employees when firing someone but don't accept it when employees leave.
It was never about the workers LEAVING. It was a message to the others who stayed, and THOUGHT about looking for a different job...
So now they are doubly f'd
In another market, it might have worked. But now with a _MASSIVE_ shortage of nurses, it will backfire.
Welcome to no notice and no notification of who their future employer is. Employees will clean out all personal items in the days leading up. At the end of the shift before signing off they'll tell their boss "Hey, I'm done. Better get someone to cover my next shift."
I don't even see the scare factor. This was a unique situation where all the employees were quitting around the same time AND they were changing jobs to the same hospital. Why would a single employee leaving Thedacare care about what happened in this case?
@@50jakecs it wasn't so much about intimidating employees, it was about intimidating other healthcare corps - other hospitals. if you want to poach our staff with higher wages, better treatment then that means to keep them we'll have to pay more. if other hospitals know they'll be sued successfully for upsetting the status quo for wages/hours/working conditions then thedacare doesn't have to do shit - the courts will do their dirty work for them - and it continues on its merry way nursing the shareholders.
That judge also needs to be taken to task.
The fact that something we all understand as long as we’ve been working is suddenly not treated the exact way 300 million people have been explained at every single HR/hiring meeting is not scary it’s disturbing.
A sign of what’s to come.
I’ve been right about too much the last 6 years.
Truthfully, the Judge put this in a national spotlight and likely prevented it from happening again. Bring me a stupid lawsuit, I may just grant it for a weekend and let you deal with the fallout.
@@juztyn00 If the judge brought it into the spotlight, it was because of his horrific decision to grant the temporary order. If I was one of the employees affected, I would be filing a complaint against him. WHATEVER his reasoning, there was no legal justification to grant it.
It's so odd that hospitals won't give a meaningful raise to their employees, but offer "travelling" personnel three ir four times the pay, month after month, temp fill after temp fill.
@@geo-george2639 judges have immunity and can’t be sued…
Thedacare was suing Ascension. The filing was basically saying that Ascension had conspired to poach their trauma team and claimed they hadn't been given adequate time to find replacements which would cause harm to patients. This appears to be a lie according to the former employees since they had several months in the case of at least 2 of the employees to find replacements. The judge enforcing a temporary ruling makes sense in that case.
So they're not admitting they were wrong to try the "back door slavery" approach, just that they're too busy to do it.
Steve Lehto: "O well, someday I will make the news." Steve, you are our news, I did not hear from this anywhere else but you!!
yeah! i noticed: not a goddam word about this anywhere in the news or on the web. Thedacare passing around the money...?
How much money, Time and Reputation was wasted vs. Paying those skilled employees to keep them did it cost?
And then they wine like a stuck Hog about "Social Media"...
Disgusting...
Seems to me that the hospital that started the whole thing should itself be sued for malicious prosecution. They were too stingy to pay their workers what they are worth. They tried to enforce their will through the court system.
In the end, would any reasonable person want to work under such a hostile environment? Would any right thinking employer want employees who clearly did not want to be there? Not a pretty picture.
This sounds like Mountian Health. We had 2 hospitals Cabell and St Marys. Our leaders let Cabell buy St Marys and then Cabell sold to Mountian Health Network. Our skilled labor are leaving in droves and they can't find any new hires. So now they are hiring traveling nurses paying them double and don't get to dictate their shifts.
What some here call a rant, I call passion. If I needed a pro to argue on my behalf, it would someone like you. Thanks for caring so much on behalf of the little guys.
We know that the hospital CEO is lying, because he had a simple way to accomplish his stated goal that didn’t require legal action. He could have payed the workers a fair wage.
I’d be concerned about using ThedaCare. When employees can leave as a group for better pay, you must not be paying a competitive wage. So I wonder how many of their employees have their names in at other places already. It would seem that the only employees they’d retain would be those lacking the skills or ambition to be hired elsewhere.
Impossible. How will he make 750k plus bonuses? (And embezzle more)
He would not have to have pay a fair wage - all he had to do is offering permanent contracts with stated resignation regulation like two weeks notice.
But as that would have gone both ways, that was asking too much.
Sure, they could have not signed the contract, preferring the at will employment, but that would had been indicative of a systemic problem. (At which point negations could start to hold the employees)
@Gordon Shumway. Oh, now you're throwing LOGIC into the discussion! Didn't you get the memo? No Logic! It confuses the big bosses!! 😉😉😂😂😂👵🇺🇸
@@TheGuruStud I’d put the ceo at over a million yearly paycheck.
This is predictably what will always happen when a hospital prioritizes lawyers over nurses. The administrators running the hospital have clearly reached their level of Peter Principle incompetence.
I've watched all three of this series and there is one thing that gets me. Everywhere I go, regular news, social media, people in the street, etc. the topic is "Why don't people want to go back to work". These people did want to work and found someone willing to pay well for their skills. They even offered hospital A a chance to retain them. This shows exactly the answer to the question. People do want to work, they just don't want to be exploited and bullied. I only wish Steve's views had been in the millions.
I wouldn't be surprised that people will no longer choose to go to a hospital that has an attitude of preventing someone from leaving or providing a matching offer. How can you trust them to give you good care if they are concerned more about saving money.
The amount of money healthcare facilities make, they shouldn’t have a hard time retaining employees. Money talks always has and always will.
@Steve Lehto. Thank you Steve for keeping us informed on this saga. I appreciate your opinion and interpretations.
Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
Let's not forget the despicable role the judge played in all of this! Much of this could have been avoided if he hadn't entertained this craziness in the first place. What a complete idiot...Sheesh!
He didnt do anything wrong? They didnt get to work till monday and they worked monday?
I am from Tennessee, which is an at-will employment state as well. What that means is that employers enjoy keeping their workers insecure about their job out of fear that they will be fired. It is really about controlling workers. You know that control is the reason, because when employees gain any kind of power (like these medical professionals did by leveraging the new offer from a competing hospital) employers use every tool they can, like suing to keep workers from going to a new hospital, to keep the game rigged in their favor. I'm glad the judge made the right decision here!
At will is the default, there are ways to get other contracts if you and your employer wish.
Steve my wife works for a law firm but you are now her favorite attorney. I called her in while watching this episode to check out your set and she immediately noticed your Blue October shirt. She lives and breathes their music. Goes to every show when in town as a band or Furstenfeld solo. I also ran across you this past weekend in the copper mining documentary. Keep up the good work!!
I guess since their attempt to use the courts to intimidate employees didn't pan out there's no points to the suit. That said I'm sure it sent a message to their current employees - be interesting to know which message they took. Either it was "run away" or "if I leave they'll harm me so I'll stay." Hoping it's the former until the leadership at that hospital face consequences for their clown show.
I suspect the CEOs ass will be on the line at the next board meeting.
This case doesn't even have an intimidation factor. In this case, all of the employees were leaving around the same time so there was a unique argument that Thedacare made that Ascension "poached" the employees. If just one person is leaving, why would this case scare them? I still don't know why Thedacare thought this lawsuit was a good idea.
@@50jakecs no more intimidation now. Current workers could now leave knowing that Thedacare won't dare try this stunt again.
@@50jakecs even if this was a out and out malicious poaching the at will status makes all of that moot. For all we care the 2nd hospital can poach all the staff of the first one since the at will status makes everything else irrelevant. There is no none competition and I'm not sure if there was a agreement that the hospital took over the role of school debt. If a company can fire people at will people can leave at will
Thank you for the follow up. Mr.Steve Lehto you made great points. Three cheers for the employees at will, as it seems there was no ill intent in giving their notice but only trying to improve their situation through opportunity. They had more ethics offering to stay with matching pay than any of the lawyers hired by the hospital. There is a big difference between the working class and what is construed as professionals. Great job. Cheers!
Their claim, that they will compensate those workers for the lost day(s) of work, doesn't absolve the hospital from the emotional damage, that they have caused to the workers.
If I was one of those workers, I would sue for compensatory damages, for the emotional harm, as well as punitive damages.
I’d love to see a full financial disclosure and analysis of the services provided by these employees against the patient billing and employee wages.
Ben saying "Hi There Folks" from behind 101WRIF 50, Steve's RHS
I think he wants to take the Viper RT/10 for a spin.
The losing hospital should now be liable for intention infliction of emotional damage, attempted extortion, SLAPping, and restraint of trade. And the officers of that hospital should also be sued as private persons as well for breach of fiduciary duty to their own organization.
No, no, no. Why does everybody on the internet think they are legal experts.
1. Intentional infliction of emotional damage is a specific lawsuit when someone acts so outrageously with the intent to cause emotional damage. For example, somebody kidnaps you and keeps threatening to kill you. This is not that type of case.
2. What extortion? Thedacare didn't threaten or try to blackmail the employees.
3. This is not a SLAPP lawsuit. Look up "John Oliver SLAPP". He's got a great show explaining what SLAPP lawsuits are. But basically they are frivolous lawsuits intended to prevent somebody else from publishing or making negative claims about somebody by scaring them with legal fees to defend against the SLAPP lawsuit.
4. Restraint of trade is a possible claim but the employees were only prevented from working at the new hospital for 4 days. The damages (lost wages) are probably less than the cost of the lawsuit.
5. Breach of fiduciary duty requires meeting a high standard where the officers acted in a way for their own benefit to the detriment of the hospital. Now, they could be fired for making a poor management decision, but since the officers probably thought they were acting in the best interests of the hospital, they did not breach their fiduciary duty.
Please learn about the law first before posting. You're just spreading bad information.
I love it when you get hyped and animated about something you obviously care about!!! Love it!
Imagine the employee morale and how many employees have started sending out resumes to other hospitals.
Would that 11K been better spent trying to keep their employees other than training new people?
I'm still not sure what Thedacare was thinking. They knew they had a really high chance of losing in court since it is an employment-at-will state so why wouldn't they just spend the money on the employees on retention bonuses until replacements are hired instead of wasting money on lawyers.
And once trained you can bet that a significant percentage of them will leave to a better workplace unless they aren't at-will employees
Thank you Steve Lehto
They're going to have to expend more effort now in filling those vacancies. It sounds like there's no shortage of positions, and if I were qualified and had two offers I know which one I'd reject.
I hope that the first hospital specializes in treating gunshots to the foot.
I've seen a redit post that showed a traveling nurse agency was looking for nurses to go to Theda Care at $6800 a week. The agency fees, travel, lodging and per diem are on top of that for Theda Care to pay.
I worked with a healthcare headhunter in the past. It is crazy how much hospitals pay headhunters to find hospital staff, it is almost like they are creating their own shortages because the headhunters are getting so much of what should be going to the employees.
this whole thing seems so ludicrous on so many levels. to my mind, quite above the question of why their request to have the alternative offer matched wasn't entertained, is that if these employees are so vital to patient care and the operation of the hospital why weren't they enjoying regular contracted terms of employment in the first place? it sounds like theyre skilled technical staff, theyre not stacking shelves at a supermarket. if you dont value and reward your employees appropriately you can have no expectation of their loyalty.
It's because hospitals do not view employees below Chief (something, Executive, Nursing, Financial) Officer as valued members of the company. They're expendable.
Well said!!👍👍
Shelf stockers have a contract sorry
business doesn't see it that way. employees are best understood to be cannon fodder, at best. HR is there to protect the business from the workers any way(s) it can get away with... That's how it works.
I'm a truck driver and I was told during orientation at a company that it costs $5000 -to put a driver through orientation when first hiring them. The company knows that most drivers will quit after a month. Just like the hospital that would rather pay lawyer fees then give their employees a raise, trucking companies seem to prefer wasting money on hiring drivers that will quit after a month instead of hiring better quality drivers and paying them more so they'll stay .
Thank you for continuing this story. I just love corporate crybabies, always wanting their cake and eating it too. They like being able to dismiss someone quickly without notice, and when it happens to benefit an employee, oh hell no.. I think the hospital should have to compensate the former employees. The Judge should charge them for bringing up a court order and for the time of the Judge and paperwork. CEO blaming it on Social Media, HAHA! Where do they get these guys to run a hospital? Wally Mart rejects?
A very fact based analysis ,clear and concise reporting. Thanks !
The fact that they actually tried to play it off as “we were just trying to seek help for an orderly transition of a large number of employees”, when they had numerous instances of being able to do this themselves-and resolve it. They just didn’t because it would cost them extra money, not to mention the cost to pay an attorney to bring this matter to the court probably cost more than paying those employees for their time.
that hospital may have wanted to create a system so others could not leave in group ...
I have to assume the employees gave two weeks notice which is traditional if you don't want to burn your job references. So probably Thedacare had two weeks to solve the problem.
@@rogersmith7396 for at-will, might be traditional but there was no contract !
@@jyvben1520 In nursing 2 weeks is expected. Nursing management may require 4 or 8 weeks. The issue is these companies will not hesitate to file complaints with the state against your license. The state does'nt respect any nurse. Also if you give two weeks you are usually eligible for rehire after that shit head who drove you out quits or gets fired. Its just thinking ahead. If you live somewhere that only has two hospitals and you burn both of them you won't work in that town again.
@@jyvben1520 if that’s what the hospital was trying to create, then don’t hire at will employees is all I can think of. They can’t have cake and eat it too.
So would love to hear what the remaining employees are saying at hospital A! Hospitals are notoriously bad treating employees. I’ve worked and retired from this same environment. They treat us terrible. So glad I’m not working anymore. The right kind of management should say they can’t do what we do but will make it easier for us to do our jobs. That’s proper management. From long hours, inadequate supplies, forced overtime too many pts to care for, to not enough time to even eat lunch or go to the bathroom….terrible…one more thing. RN’s at my former hospital wore beepers and timers of some type to monitor how quickly they answered a pt’s call button! Awful.
like working in a gawdam call centre or for amazon.
"Can you match their offer?"
"Not without reducing senior management salaries."
Seems to me that the judge was being ridiculous to strong arm the workers and hospital to 'come to an agreement' with hospital A.
We need to be clear more often that a particular judge is doing something awful as in this case. The temp injunction was a vile move even tho it was only over a weekend.
That's one crappy weekend of worry and stress all cuz the judge was gutless in the most ridiculous way.
The thing is the judge probably wanted to get support from the community by keeping the hospital staff until replacements come. Make it a help maintain local hospitals slogan but the news got out and people got pissed. Maintaining the local hospitals at the risk of slavery is bs in the public view.
I find it amazing truly amazing in this day and age that anyone anywhere can screw up at will employment.
This is a perfect example of how much any employer cares about their employees.
I hope the effected employees sue the hospital that asked for the injunction for violating their rights.
It sounds like the employees leaving would risk Thedacare's Level II Trauma Center rating, etc. When management decided they didn't want to pay more to keep these employees on board, nobody realized this would come into play and so they filed the lawsuit in hopes that some employees would remain or keep them on board long enough for them to rectify that. Incompetent management.
Also some people think that the staff is bluffing to get a pay raise and call them on it. They failed the bet and couldn't handle taking the loss. Now they will lose more hiring new people at a high premium where they could've just taken the market rate
@Add a name to continue, the employees notified the hospital they were leaving in *December.* The hospital they were leaving waited until their *February* date of departure to sue. *That hospital had PLENTY of time to hire replacements!* (…or “rectify the situation,” as you say) The *employees* put NO ONE in danger. The hospital placed *EVERYONE* in jeopardy.
Thedacare is going to have a lot of recruitment / retention issues in the future. Who would want to work for such a vindictive company.
I found your channel earlier today because someone on FB said a lawyer did a video about the indestructible mailbox, and several hours later, I'm still watching your videos. I hope you get the same level of success of Legal Eagle because you are so good and thorough. I love your videos!
I am a RN as is my wife. Our daughter is a Dr. Thanks from all of us Steve. This is the new normal in the medical field.
It's only "normal" if people accept it.
I am stoked! The judge never should've allowed the injunction go forth in oral argument, "at will workers was an imposition the workers accepted, not initiated". To even consider a corporate argument, in the face of a clear and obvious imposition, accepted by People, with no real choice, is not even close to "good law". I've been laid off in similar circumstances, not medical worker, electronics industry, the attitude was always "take it or leave it" unless you leave it and it hurts us, a little. I starved a couple months in Riverside, Ca, for similar cause.
Do you think that the people who were leaving now have a good case to sue the hospital for what they did?
Worth a shot
Yup
yes. they were enslaved against their will by the court sue the state too.
@@jhoughjr1 sigh can;t sue a judge unless they make an order they could not legally do. Note legally is not the same as stupid or incorrect ruling
. IE they can;t not order some in the galley to take a drug test .
What would they be suing for? There wasn't any damage, they were able to start work as planned.
You should become a judge. I love your perspective and candor!
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Employees have been leaving in a wholesale basis due to the environment created by the CEO. They need to get rid of HIM.
It's a suit that never should have been filed in the first place. Had those workers had any day they didn't work/get paid, they should sue Thetacare for tortious interference.
I'm surprised a lawyer filed this case.
he got paid for it,
@@williamscottshelton945 It's a (first and foremost) "business."
In case there was ever any doubt that this lawsuit was entirely about preventing their employees from leaving.
Employers still don't care! Case in point a couple weeks ago a bad snow storm was going through. Road conditions were deteriorating. 90% of our work crew went to the higher ups asking to go home. They asked the even higher ups and they said no. Said they weren't going to shut down. We all decided to leave early after stopping - got hit with a point - and reduced pay for all week -- along with knowing the company don't care about us. (Union Job) Plows were pulled off roads. Roads 100% ice covered. And we got in excess a foot of snow. 15 minute car ride home at night took an hour. Even in a pandemic and people leaving jobs -- companies still don't care about the employee. Where is the humanity?
Steve, I appreciate your work! Law is not at all my field but your breadth of knowledge and experience tackling these real words scenarios with your commentary makes it just stick for someone like myself. You will be appreciated publicly one day!
ThedaCare administrators badly miscalculated, this has already cost them and now they've harmed their reputation and opened themselves up for more staff problems and lawsuits. The smartest people in the room often aren't.
I agree with everything you posted except the lawsuits part. Who would be suing Thedacare?
@@50jakecs Possible lawsuits coming from the seven former Thedacare employees for interfering with their employment with Ascension. It's just speculation on my part, but there are always attorneys out there willing to take on institutions like Thedacare. Disclaimer: I'm Not a lawyer. Don't play one on TV.
I’m no lawyer but this is how I would have predicted the outcome. That makes me correct one time in a row!!!
God forbid that the hospital administration takes a pay cut to retain employees. Those huge six figure salaries are hard to give up for the greater good.
@@shawnstephens1251 And people wonder why healthcare costs are so high.
Go get em' Steve! Absolutely brilliant comment!
Steve ... you got it right. At least one reporting source got it wrong. That story was amplified by social media, claiming that the judge's temp injunction was against the workers. That story ignored the fact that the suit was between the two hospitals. Oh well ...
Workers were not in the original claim, but the second hospital was given 2 choices in the TRO, since the second hospital was not even invited to the emergency briefing on Friday.. Either hold of the working of the new employees until after the Monday hearing OR provide 2 workers (not necessarily from the new workers) to first hospital while the case was being processed. There was no info in the TRO of how much the workers would make or how they would charge back for the supplied workers. They chose the first option and dropped a FIRE opposition paper and the TRO was quickly removed, as they showed no harm was being done to hospital A, and the only harm was done to the employees that were not on the lawsuit and hospital b.
This situation confused me on many levels.
I live in new Hampshire, which is an at will employment state. ANY place can just tell you work is terminated, anytime, for any reason.
Same works with the employee, we can just say "I am going home now, forever" , no 2 weeks notice or anything
Employee Poaching is not illegal , due to the at will status. I know of at least 1 situation where a friend was working and a competitor went in for coffee and actively spent about 5 minutes recruiting her for his company. While she was on the clock.
We cannot sue each other. There are backfires though, such as holiday pay acrued is NOT guaranteed to be paid out upon leaving/termination
This was such an interesting concept to me, to sue another company for "poaching" employees
And the best part of this hospital A vs B is those still at hospital A know they too are likely underpaid and I'd bet they all have started to see what other jobs are out there. Would be surprised if a second wave of hospital employees quit there soon.
Thanks for the update.
I've heard this case call endentured servitude by court order.
Would the employees have grounds to sue for ‘vexatious litigation’?
Good job on this issue Steve. Although I am not a lawyer I have studied mercantile law in Australia and our laws and terminologies vary a little, I still enjoyed the argument you presented. Keep up the good work.