Got my VPForce for a while. Best FFB stick out on the market presently. Its a game changer for DCS, especially for helicopters. Trimming actually works really simply and smoothly. All the bumps and disturbances from flying aircraft and forces of the planes control systems itself get felt. The VPForce software does a great job at adding in force inputs that DCS otherwise lacks, typically an issue with ED's modules. Best module with FFB support is currently the F-4. They spent a lot of attention and detail on it
And for those competitive folks, the feedback from FFB does make you a better virtual pilot. Especially when it comes to feeling how close you are to the stall. WW2 pilots, looking at you. You can immediately put the 51 in a hard turn on the razor edge of the stall and hold it there as long as you want.
Literally my case, but a little bit different, I use FFBeast and when I got it I literally started to experience flight differently, I can't imagine using spring joystick anymore. For WW2 planes it's a literally must have because you can understand how much energy do you have without looking on speed gauge, hope it will become more mainstream because flight sims without simulating real controls is meh
People have been saying for a while that you need to feel it to know what you're missing. They were right. You'd have to pry my VPForce Rhino from my cold, dead hands. I've been having a blast just flying around holding aircraft on the edge of stalls, doing precision helicopter maneuvers, etc. I'm bad at dogfighting, and yet still noticed a significant improvement after just a couple play sessions. As for the game-ified effects, one solution is to get a transducer and let a program like Simshaker handle them.
Yeah i've considered simshaker in the past, though never gotten around to trying it, one guy i fly with uses a seat pad rumble feedback system. Ideally you'd have both and VR! And a simpit whilst we're at it for total immersion.
It really is something that you have to feel to truly understand what you're missing. I 've had my AB9 since the pre orders shipped and I honestly don't think I could ever go back to a regular stick ever again.
I can't wait to get an FFB base someday. It looks like it will be a game changer anyway, but it seems like something that will be like what TrackIR was when it first started coming out. Something that completely changes the way you fly and makes it tough to go back after you get used to it.
Oh yeah, it's a game changer! I loved playing just about every game back in the 90s/00s with this, then... imagine the disappointment of support stopping and at best all you get is pitiful rumble motors in game pads for the next 20 years.
I've been using FFB joysticks for 12 years. Had a couple different iterations of modified MSFFB2, and now am using a Brunner CLS-E. I have a Brunner profile for the F-16 that is stiff and limits the throw of the stick to 15%, and it is actually pretty immersive... although having the stick center mounted breaks immersion a bit lol. Thanks for the vids, you are top tier DCS content!
Thanks! Yes the Moza FFB does a similar thing for the F-16, however i also happen to have an actual force sensing base on hand, so I'll do a direct comparison at some point of how that feels.
Using FFBeast for a few months, it's transformed the experience of flying, especially for the warbirds. The software will allow you to add effects beyond what DCS provides, for the F-16, for example.
Yeah as i mention later, the software support for adding in effects is just as crucial as the hardware is, DCS's FFB is lacking at its core, so with this new wave of gear, i hope they get around to improving the native ffb support.
@RedKiteRender yes I saw that. Agree FFB as a module specific feature would indeed be great. Configuring each aircraft individually is a bit of a pain....
Bought the VpForce Rhino a while ago, and never regretted it. I mostly fly helicopters, and wouldn't want to fly without FFB ever again, its just so good.
I got the MOZA AB9 and it's great, not perfect but it is what I expected to be, absolutely love it. Now that FFB will be a thing I hope DCS will have their modules made with support for such on the par at least with what HB guys are doing.
I'm using the haptic feedback pad from Next Level Racing, and in combination with SimShaker for Aviators their are allot of possibilities of what can be felt. Firing guns for example is being simulated and is awesome, also turbulence and buffeting is being simulated. I find it awesome in the AH-64D / F14 and the F4 Phantom. Hopefully the support will be better with Force feedback. It sounds like a great experience.
Have had my VPForce for a year, had the MSFFB2 before that. More has been said about the VPForce than I could possibly share here, FFB aside I love how it can also be configured into a non-FFB but feeling the same or better than VKB/Virpil's. I can speak for FFB in general though. The issue up until now has been people doing max elevator deflection at the ragged edge, with scant regard to saving energy, that's been an issue for quite a few years now. The P-51 for instance has gotten offed many times because of this, smaller 109's simply turn inside of the P-51's circle, pull lead and hose them, it's simply easier. But with FFB, the few times I fly the P-51, in IL-2 for instance, the 109's just outright don't expect me to do the same as them, vertical wingtips putting it on the edge, but worse yet I'm HOLDING it there at about 220-240 mph, it's a wider but faster turning circle, to get inside of it they have to be at the ragged edge, overpull to get lead, and shudder a little (you can tell when their wings start rocking), that's when I gain, then eventually they try to break away and run away having turned with me for far too long = My queue to just open the throttle and hose them outta the air. I can also throw it into quick "flight departures", spin around my own axis and return fire as they zoom by, it's getting people thinking again finally after years of 109 superiority. About the only thing that gets me is packs of 109's running trains on me, and it happens often, but if I can get them all turning after me at the same time I can give everyone a quick burst as they invariably disengage when I catch up (never fails) hopefully damaging them, then focus on the last 1 or 2 109's.
Pretty good explanaton for a people who never felt the FFB before. I hope my G940 will stay alive for as long as possible, since NEW FFB solutions authors thinks everyone could drop 500+ bucks in just a base.
Keep in mind a lot of G940's cost about the same used. We drop a lot of money on computers to run these sims, not to mention the sims themselves, and all the panels etc. Considering all that, 500+ bucks isn't really all that much, and it's as tick you'll be keeping for decades with all current and future sims as opposed to a computer.
@@ToreDL87 Depends on a country you live on. I probably can find used g940 locally in around $200. And not everyone can drop tons of money in pc. I know people who fly their whole life on budget gpus..
Great summary of the state of the FFB support in DCS. FFB is a game changer, i bought mine as an experiment, i thought i will try it and most probably sell it after...but it makes a huge difference, i cannot go back to spring loaded sticks. I think the most important part is the last section of the video, about the software support of the hardware manufacturers. I do not belive that ED will make FFB support impovements as a priority in the nearby future. This means we have to rely on the 3rd party software provided by the hardware manufacturers. VPforce did and does a great job on their temetry software, but not all the companies can/want to provide the same lvl of support. Some of em simply too lazy to develop their own software and try to use (steal?) form other developers without the proper insight, which will lead to a wrong implementation and negative user experience, hurting the whole concept of FFB (....looking at you Moza).
I've always wished i had ff rudder pedals flying warbirds in dcs. It's so hard to stay anything like coordinated while looking at a bandit. Especially when you're zoomed in. I think it would add so much to the game
The FFB is really, really fun! it throws the stick around, tipping it as you roll and quite strongly pulling aft/for in time with "g forces" when you brake/boost. A lot of star wars N64 games made it to pc, Star wars rogue squadron for example!
Racing sims have been "gameifying" simulation for decades, the whole point of FFB is transmitting all feeling of the vehicle through the primary sensory input, the steering wheel. This is why iRacing FFB is mid as hell because it only transmits the steering axle forces whereas Assetto Corsa stands head and shoulders above the rest with is full sensory FFB system that also inputs far more of what the chassis is doing through the wheel. The fascination with avoiding "gamification" is going to hold back DCS in this area hard, it should be so much more than what they limit it to.
Effects that do not translate via the stick (or rudder) should be transmitted via a bass shaker (Buttkicker or similar) and not via the flight controls as in the real aircraft it is the aircraft that shakes or vibrates and not the stick and rudder. So one can ask ED to make a dedicated sound channel for bass shakers (as in iRacing). That, added to a realistic FFB implementation (and VR) is the ultimate immersion, where only accelerations are missing.
Yes, but the stick and the pedals are mounted to the airframe, so you will feel the effects on those as well. If any kind of haptic implementation should happen, it should not come through sound channels but telemtry data (as it works already with Simshaker, official support would be great but will never happen).
I don’t know if I’m impressed with your video ( which I am) or more impressed you still have a MS Sidewinder FF stick!!! I didn’t think they had those anymore!! Also that game footage of Mech Warrior etc… Too funny! Those were state of the art best graphics back in the day!! Curious what you think the difference the old MS stick and the new sticks? I have a Moza FF unit but have not had a chance to set it all up yet. I didn’t expect it to be so large and can’t figure out how to get it to fit on the bed when I fly? Might have to make a cockpit with a lounge chair or something. Anyway, thanks for making and sharing this info and video. Great job!!
It's an original, had it a good 20 years old by this point, but still trucking on! The Moza makes the old MS FFB feel like a toy, much stronger forces, but it's a biggy. I hope we see some smaller ones come to market too. Moza offer a desk mount, which is what i'm using, but any aluminium extrusion / T rail mount could be used to attach it, with the correct bits to adapt.
@@RedKiteRender Personally I'm waiting until we get one that's a much smaller desktop capable stick. Kind of like a Sidewinder 2.0. It's a shame we've only seen big hulks so far
Do you use SimFFB? I have seen people suggesting that I could fix the problem my G940 has using SimFFB, but there's no tutorials for it or anything like that (at least that are being showed to be by google.) If you do it might be worth a tutorial video on it.
@@RedKiteRender From what I can gather it is only a problem with the CLS-E (and only one of the problems with it, the other being its low maximum force output making it borderline for usability). The brunner CLS-P (which is the professional grade version) from what I can gather doesn't have the overheating issue, but costs something like 6 grand and is a special order.
@@jimmydesouza4375 As someone who owned and returned a Brunner CLS-E base, its tendency to overheat is accurate. Not only are the maximum forces quite weak, but it overheats in a matter of seconds at max force and max deflection, after which the base immediately turns off the motors and goes slack for a few seconds. This made it unusable for anything that needs the stick to be held at large deflections for long periods of time, for example WWI and WWII aircraft. On top of that, it's almost triple the cost of the Moza AB9 and only has half the maximum force.
Welcome to the party, I have been using my MS FFB2 since Flanker iirc......only replaced it with a Rhino end of last year, I was called a minority whiner by non FFB users on the DCS forums for asking for more FFB implementation for many years.
I've had my MSFFB2 since new, some 20+ years by this point! Sadly most people don't appreciate what FFB does for simming, hence the video to show the base features of DCS before i get into the Moza base with its extra features/effects.
Adding certain FFB functionality to a jet like the Hornet wouldn't even be game-fied per se as the jet's CAS will provide certain effects, in addition to the simulated wind effects provided by the FCCs (if i understand the details of that english language text i was reading correctly).. And that's staying completely in the realms of "is realistic".. Other than that, some "game" effects like ripple effect when releasing payload or rumble for touchdown etc wouldn't be a bad addition neither imho. But hey, i keep my X56 from falling apart and am miles away from affording anything remotely FFB related anyways.
It's one of those things where the rumbles can throw your stick off in unrealistic ways in response to what should be felt throughout the whole airplane instead. Simshakers / transducers and other systems exist to give those kinds of feedback. So it 100% needs to be a configurable feature for the user if added onto the stick.
I have been flying DCS and ARMA3 for 10years now with a Logitech G940. I had it rewired and bought a second set to canibalise if and when needed..... Magnetic FFB..... i dont think I ever going to have a non FFB setup
I hope the future is FFB, rather than the past, just like VR it's a major step up. I'd considered picking up another MS FFB2 for parts/longevity too. But the limited buttons meant i rarely use it in DCS (outside of Warbirds/Huey)
@RedKiteRender Try to get a G940 after the throtle revire (its a must) its a amazing HOTAS with a ingame modifiyer I never have to tuch the keyboard. The only bad is its sooooo hard to find one and usualy very pricy.... but... it still a magnetic FFB. If you dig into why we dont have them anymore you will find that the patent has been bought by a company and they are not willing to let it out.... cunts
It is a Logitech Force 3d Pro. They didn't last very long on the market, due to constantly breaking themselves and the mechanical linkages inside feeling like a bag of rocks being stirred around. Were a bit of a flop, though the body/stick were reused in a conventional spring joystick version which is still on sale today.
Yeah I'd recommend skipping it. Mine also has a dodgy sensor (potentiometer?) and jumps about a little causing FFB spikes, despite the relatively low usage it got in the end! MS FFB2 on the other hand works pretty well, the USB is starting to give out and I'll have to replace it, and the trigger s slightly rough, all after some 20 years of use. The safety light sensor has become blocked with dirt, but that's almost a positive, since it allows me to show it functioning with hands off.
@@RedKiteRender Have you ever tried a G940? I am wondering how that compares to an FFB2. My next stick is likely to be the moza AB9, but I was debating between a 940 and an FFB2 back when I was buying my first FFB stick and went with the 940. I like it, though it was ancient when I bought it and has finally wore out to the point where the stick's sensor and the feedback system are no longer synced, which makes it kind of unusable.
Id love to get a FFB stick. My issue is im VERY SENSITIVE to my gear breaking. And looking at FFB sticks mechanics, i can see them being very fragile. I prefer not to pay 300 400 bucks for something that will need repair in 2 months.
Unfortunately there's no way to know durability just yet, they're belt driven connected to large electric motors, so not a huge amount to go wrong, unless they overheat. I imagine eventually the belts will need replacing.
I once owned Microsoft’s FFB (Force Feedback) first generation, and I used it to fly in IL-2. The amazing feel of the force feedback had me hooked. However, after Microsoft produced the FFB second generation, they stopped making improvements, which was very disappointing. Over the years, I tried several other force feedback devices until last year when I got the VPforce, and so far, there’s nothing better. By the way, MOZA’s misuse of VPforce’s open-source code is disgraceful, even though I’m from China.
That would be Wild Metal Country, I think its abandonware now. Was a pretty fun tank'em up in a desolate landscape collecting coloured boxes. Or you can drive a rocket propelled sphere around if you want XD
I still have a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback stick. I loved it. But about 12 years ago the rubber all over it turned totally sticky and so now it is unusable. I was very disappointed, as otherwise it stilled worked great. The plastic just aged and got all gooey and sticky…
They were popularised late 90s / early 2000s and after that patents and legal complexities killed them off. Outside of professional simulators they were a lost technology in practise. (Even Sony got targeted for their vibrating playstation controllers!) Recently something must have changed/expired, as Moza, Virpil and WinWing are all making new designs this year. Then you have the small business home made FFBeast and VPForce Rhino who have been around a couple years now. Force feedback steering wheels by comparison never had this issue.
@@Htatoohlaing patent trolls. Said patents expired about 6 years ago. No idea why it took so long... Speaking of patents, Walmis from VPForce is claiming that he has reason to believe Moza copied his code... 😵
@@RedKiteRender oh wow I had no idea FFB joysticks were so guarded, lol. I thought people didn't like it and it didn't sell much, so they took it off the market. It's cool that they are making a comeback now, they make the gameplay experience much more fun and realistic.
Unfortunately i'm on Windows 10 not 11, first step would be just plug it in, enable ffb on DCS and see if it works, there's a program called FFB tester as well, which you might find helpful. As for drivers, I'm not sure. It's been a while, i think it just worked right off. The Logitech one needed the current FFB drivers from their site to work.
Only doing the realistic FFB features means you don't have to make a configurable FFB menu to control the "gamified" features to avoid upsetting purists and allow customisation to each stick. It's a lot of work for a feature that hardly anyone will use, but, hopefully that's changing. The RWR is a simplification, one Heatblur disagree with! So they model more depth to theirs.
Got my VPForce for a while. Best FFB stick out on the market presently. Its a game changer for DCS, especially for helicopters. Trimming actually works really simply and smoothly. All the bumps and disturbances from flying aircraft and forces of the planes control systems itself get felt. The VPForce software does a great job at adding in force inputs that DCS otherwise lacks, typically an issue with ED's modules. Best module with FFB support is currently the F-4. They spent a lot of attention and detail on it
And for those competitive folks, the feedback from FFB does make you a better virtual pilot. Especially when it comes to feeling how close you are to the stall. WW2 pilots, looking at you. You can immediately put the 51 in a hard turn on the razor edge of the stall and hold it there as long as you want.
100% agree, it's one of those you can't go back items that's a big step up, i was so upset when the technology died off in the 00s
Literally my case, but a little bit different, I use FFBeast and when I got it I literally started to experience flight differently, I can't imagine using spring joystick anymore.
For WW2 planes it's a literally must have because you can understand how much energy do you have without looking on speed gauge, hope it will become more mainstream because flight sims without simulating real controls is meh
0:47 The _Only_ way to play Mechwarrior 3 is with a sidewinder force feedback. Nostalgia hits like a truck.
Still the best Mechwarrior game to date as well!
0 seconds in but wanted to chime in right away to say WELCOME BACK!
Thanks! Been a tough year.
@@RedKiteRenderbeen missing your videos man
Red kite combines two qualities: best voice and best content. Looking forward to more of your vids!
People have been saying for a while that you need to feel it to know what you're missing. They were right. You'd have to pry my VPForce Rhino from my cold, dead hands. I've been having a blast just flying around holding aircraft on the edge of stalls, doing precision helicopter maneuvers, etc. I'm bad at dogfighting, and yet still noticed a significant improvement after just a couple play sessions. As for the game-ified effects, one solution is to get a transducer and let a program like Simshaker handle them.
Yeah i've considered simshaker in the past, though never gotten around to trying it, one guy i fly with uses a seat pad rumble feedback system. Ideally you'd have both and VR! And a simpit whilst we're at it for total immersion.
Finally someone talking about force feed back sticks who know what they are talking about. Thank you for actually explaining its functions in game.
I got my AB9 last Thursday after waiting for a long month, and it's a game-changer.
Lol what a flashback. I still have my sidewinder.
Is a wonderful bit of kit! Such a shame they were discontinued.
I recently bought one on E-Bay, ah the feeeeellllllls
I’ve been running mine forever. It’s amazing and I’ll be heartbroken when it eventually goes to the great heaven
me too
It really is something that you have to feel to truly understand what you're missing. I 've had my AB9 since the pre orders shipped and I honestly don't think I could ever go back to a regular stick ever again.
I can't wait to get an FFB base someday. It looks like it will be a game changer anyway, but it seems like something that will be like what TrackIR was when it first started coming out. Something that completely changes the way you fly and makes it tough to go back after you get used to it.
Oh yeah, it's a game changer! I loved playing just about every game back in the 90s/00s with this, then... imagine the disappointment of support stopping and at best all you get is pitiful rumble motors in game pads for the next 20 years.
I've been using FFB joysticks for 12 years. Had a couple different iterations of modified MSFFB2, and now am using a Brunner CLS-E.
I have a Brunner profile for the F-16 that is stiff and limits the throw of the stick to 15%, and it is actually pretty immersive... although having the stick center mounted breaks immersion a bit lol.
Thanks for the vids, you are top tier DCS content!
Thanks! Yes the Moza FFB does a similar thing for the F-16, however i also happen to have an actual force sensing base on hand, so I'll do a direct comparison at some point of how that feels.
@@RedKiteRender No doubt the force sensing stick will be better, but will be interesting to see your comparison!
Using FFBeast for a few months, it's transformed the experience of flying, especially for the warbirds. The software will allow you to add effects beyond what DCS provides, for the F-16, for example.
Yeah as i mention later, the software support for adding in effects is just as crucial as the hardware is, DCS's FFB is lacking at its core, so with this new wave of gear, i hope they get around to improving the native ffb support.
@RedKiteRender yes I saw that. Agree FFB as a module specific feature would indeed be great. Configuring each aircraft individually is a bit of a pain....
Bought the VpForce Rhino a while ago, and never regretted it. I mostly fly helicopters, and wouldn't want to fly without FFB ever again, its just so good.
Thanks for the reminder. Have to break my msffb2 out again for some f4 and warbirds in dcs
I’m using Logitech g940 and my f18 has ffb trim. It’s useful for trimming for carrier landings.
I got the MOZA AB9 and it's great, not perfect but it is what I expected to be, absolutely love it. Now that FFB will be a thing I hope DCS will have their modules made with support for such on the par at least with what HB guys are doing.
Would be great! DCS has a good reason to invest into the tech now they're becoming available again.
I'm using the haptic feedback pad from Next Level Racing, and in combination with SimShaker for Aviators their are allot of possibilities of what can be felt. Firing guns for example is being simulated and is awesome, also turbulence and buffeting is being simulated. I find it awesome in the AH-64D / F14 and the F4 Phantom. Hopefully the support will be better with Force feedback. It sounds like a great experience.
Winwing have very good effects for weapon release, guns etc in the sim app pro software if you stick is the stick shaker variant
Excellent video covering force feedback from a to z!
Have had my VPForce for a year, had the MSFFB2 before that. More has been said about the VPForce than I could possibly share here, FFB aside I love how it can also be configured into a non-FFB but feeling the same or better than VKB/Virpil's.
I can speak for FFB in general though.
The issue up until now has been people doing max elevator deflection at the ragged edge, with scant regard to saving energy, that's been an issue for quite a few years now.
The P-51 for instance has gotten offed many times because of this, smaller 109's simply turn inside of the P-51's circle, pull lead and hose them, it's simply easier.
But with FFB, the few times I fly the P-51, in IL-2 for instance, the 109's just outright don't expect me to do the same as them, vertical wingtips putting it on the edge, but worse yet I'm HOLDING it there at about 220-240 mph, it's a wider but faster turning circle, to get inside of it they have to be at the ragged edge, overpull to get lead, and shudder a little (you can tell when their wings start rocking), that's when I gain, then eventually they try to break away and run away having turned with me for far too long = My queue to just open the throttle and hose them outta the air.
I can also throw it into quick "flight departures", spin around my own axis and return fire as they zoom by, it's getting people thinking again finally after years of 109 superiority.
About the only thing that gets me is packs of 109's running trains on me, and it happens often, but if I can get them all turning after me at the same time I can give everyone a quick burst as they invariably disengage when I catch up (never fails) hopefully damaging them, then focus on the last 1 or 2 109's.
Redkite, we love your videos. ❤
Pretty good explanaton for a people who never felt the FFB before. I hope my G940 will stay alive for as long as possible, since NEW FFB solutions authors thinks everyone could drop 500+ bucks in just a base.
Keep in mind a lot of G940's cost about the same used.
We drop a lot of money on computers to run these sims, not to mention the sims themselves, and all the panels etc.
Considering all that, 500+ bucks isn't really all that much, and it's as tick you'll be keeping for decades with all current and future sims as opposed to a computer.
@@ToreDL87 Depends on a country you live on. I probably can find used g940 locally in around $200. And not everyone can drop tons of money in pc. I know people who fly their whole life on budget gpus..
I'm still using microsoft sidewinder precision 2 that made in 98 or 99 at dcs, and it works pretty well
"Limp and nothing much going on there"
Steady on man, no need to get personal with me!
Great summary of the state of the FFB support in DCS. FFB is a game changer, i bought mine as an experiment, i thought i will try it and most probably sell it after...but it makes a huge difference, i cannot go back to spring loaded sticks. I think the most important part is the last section of the video, about the software support of the hardware manufacturers. I do not belive that ED will make FFB support impovements as a priority in the nearby future. This means we have to rely on the 3rd party software provided by the hardware manufacturers. VPforce did and does a great job on their temetry software, but not all the companies can/want to provide the same lvl of support. Some of em simply too lazy to develop their own software and try to use (steal?) form other developers without the proper insight, which will lead to a wrong implementation and negative user experience, hurting the whole concept of FFB (....looking at you Moza).
omG i still have my MS sidewinder but mine don't have feedback, i use the warthog tho, this was fun to watch...old engineering still working
Excellent summary. thanks
I've always wished i had ff rudder pedals flying warbirds in dcs. It's so hard to stay anything like coordinated while looking at a bandit. Especially when you're zoomed in. I think it would add so much to the game
Crimson Skies with MS FFB2 is Amazing!
Such a good game, i've been meaning to play it again with my MS FFB2
Hello sir and welcome back! Very nice introduction indeed! Any chance you are going to review the Moza FFB stick and give your impressions?
I shall be yes! I'm looking forward to getting back into flying FFB on the regular.
How cool is that! I'll certainly look out for an FFB base now! What does it do on the A-4 Community Mod?
I am not sure if the stick in F/A-18C really shifts center with the trim movement. But probably it should. It probably will not be like in F-16.
0:39 Pod Racer was also on other Platforms? I only ever played it on my N64, really liked that game
The FFB is really, really fun! it throws the stick around, tipping it as you roll and quite strongly pulling aft/for in time with "g forces" when you brake/boost. A lot of star wars N64 games made it to pc, Star wars rogue squadron for example!
Racing sims have been "gameifying" simulation for decades, the whole point of FFB is transmitting all feeling of the vehicle through the primary sensory input, the steering wheel. This is why iRacing FFB is mid as hell because it only transmits the steering axle forces whereas Assetto Corsa stands head and shoulders above the rest with is full sensory FFB system that also inputs far more of what the chassis is doing through the wheel.
The fascination with avoiding "gamification" is going to hold back DCS in this area hard, it should be so much more than what they limit it to.
Effects that do not translate via the stick (or rudder) should be transmitted via a bass shaker (Buttkicker or similar) and not via the flight controls as in the real aircraft it is the aircraft that shakes or vibrates and not the stick and rudder.
So one can ask ED to make a dedicated sound channel for bass shakers (as in iRacing).
That, added to a realistic FFB implementation (and VR) is the ultimate immersion, where only accelerations are missing.
Yes, but the stick and the pedals are mounted to the airframe, so you will feel the effects on those as well. If any kind of haptic implementation should happen, it should not come through sound channels but telemtry data (as it works already with Simshaker, official support would be great but will never happen).
I don’t know if I’m impressed with your video ( which I am) or more impressed you still have a MS Sidewinder FF stick!!! I didn’t think they had those anymore!! Also that game footage of Mech Warrior etc… Too funny! Those were state of the art best graphics back in the day!! Curious what you think the difference the old MS stick and the new sticks? I have a Moza FF unit but have not had a chance to set it all up yet. I didn’t expect it to be so large and can’t figure out how to get it to fit on the bed when I fly? Might have to make a cockpit with a lounge chair or something. Anyway, thanks for making and sharing this info and video. Great job!!
It's an original, had it a good 20 years old by this point, but still trucking on! The Moza makes the old MS FFB feel like a toy, much stronger forces, but it's a biggy. I hope we see some smaller ones come to market too. Moza offer a desk mount, which is what i'm using, but any aluminium extrusion / T rail mount could be used to attach it, with the correct bits to adapt.
@@RedKiteRender Personally I'm waiting until we get one that's a much smaller desktop capable stick. Kind of like a Sidewinder 2.0. It's a shame we've only seen big hulks so far
Do you use SimFFB? I have seen people suggesting that I could fix the problem my G940 has using SimFFB, but there's no tutorials for it or anything like that (at least that are being showed to be by google.) If you do it might be worth a tutorial video on it.
There is also Brunner, it's a high quality FFB stick as well.
Every single person I have seen who bought one strongly disliked it due to their tendency to overheat.
That's disappointing to hear, it's a much older design and more expensive than the new generation, it should have really been refined by this point.
@@RedKiteRender From what I can gather it is only a problem with the CLS-E (and only one of the problems with it, the other being its low maximum force output making it borderline for usability).
The brunner CLS-P (which is the professional grade version) from what I can gather doesn't have the overheating issue, but costs something like 6 grand and is a special order.
The Brunner being professional market is why i omitted it from mention. Does sound like it's not worth looking at compared to current generation!
@@jimmydesouza4375 As someone who owned and returned a Brunner CLS-E base, its tendency to overheat is accurate. Not only are the maximum forces quite weak, but it overheats in a matter of seconds at max force and max deflection, after which the base immediately turns off the motors and goes slack for a few seconds. This made it unusable for anything that needs the stick to be held at large deflections for long periods of time, for example WWI and WWII aircraft. On top of that, it's almost triple the cost of the Moza AB9 and only has half the maximum force.
Great vid..!
Welcome to the party, I have been using my MS FFB2 since Flanker iirc......only replaced it with a Rhino end of last year, I was called a minority whiner by non FFB users on the DCS forums for asking for more FFB implementation for many years.
I've had my MSFFB2 since new, some 20+ years by this point! Sadly most people don't appreciate what FFB does for simming, hence the video to show the base features of DCS before i get into the Moza base with its extra features/effects.
Adding certain FFB functionality to a jet like the Hornet wouldn't even be game-fied per se as the jet's CAS will provide certain effects, in addition to the simulated wind effects provided by the FCCs (if i understand the details of that english language text i was reading correctly).. And that's staying completely in the realms of "is realistic".. Other than that, some "game" effects like ripple effect when releasing payload or rumble for touchdown etc wouldn't be a bad addition neither imho.
But hey, i keep my X56 from falling apart and am miles away from affording anything remotely FFB related anyways.
It's one of those things where the rumbles can throw your stick off in unrealistic ways in response to what should be felt throughout the whole airplane instead. Simshakers / transducers and other systems exist to give those kinds of feedback. So it 100% needs to be a configurable feature for the user if added onto the stick.
I have been flying DCS and ARMA3 for 10years now with a Logitech G940. I had it rewired and bought a second set to canibalise if and when needed.....
Magnetic FFB..... i dont think I ever going to have a non FFB setup
I hope the future is FFB, rather than the past, just like VR it's a major step up. I'd considered picking up another MS FFB2 for parts/longevity too. But the limited buttons meant i rarely use it in DCS (outside of Warbirds/Huey)
@RedKiteRender Try to get a G940
after the throtle revire (its a must) its a amazing HOTAS with a ingame modifiyer I never have to tuch the keyboard.
The only bad is its sooooo hard to find one and usualy very pricy.... but... it still a magnetic FFB. If you dig into why we dont have them anymore you will find that the patent has been bought by a company and they are not willing to let it out.... cunts
I have a Microsoft Sidewinder, but what was the joystick to the left when the two joysticks were shown?
It is a Logitech Force 3d Pro. They didn't last very long on the market, due to constantly breaking themselves and the mechanical linkages inside feeling like a bag of rocks being stirred around. Were a bit of a flop, though the body/stick were reused in a conventional spring joystick version which is still on sale today.
Logitech Force3D Pro I think.
@@RedKiteRender thank you! I was thinking about picking one up from eBay like I did with the Sidewinder, but with your description I may pass! Lol!
Yeah I'd recommend skipping it. Mine also has a dodgy sensor (potentiometer?) and jumps about a little causing FFB spikes, despite the relatively low usage it got in the end!
MS FFB2 on the other hand works pretty well, the USB is starting to give out and I'll have to replace it, and the trigger s slightly rough, all after some 20 years of use. The safety light sensor has become blocked with dirt, but that's almost a positive, since it allows me to show it functioning with hands off.
@@RedKiteRender Have you ever tried a G940? I am wondering how that compares to an FFB2. My next stick is likely to be the moza AB9, but I was debating between a 940 and an FFB2 back when I was buying my first FFB stick and went with the 940.
I like it, though it was ancient when I bought it and has finally wore out to the point where the stick's sensor and the feedback system are no longer synced, which makes it kind of unusable.
Id love to get a FFB stick. My issue is im VERY SENSITIVE to my gear breaking. And looking at FFB sticks mechanics, i can see them being very fragile. I prefer not to pay 300 400 bucks for something that will need repair in 2 months.
Unfortunately there's no way to know durability just yet, they're belt driven connected to large electric motors, so not a huge amount to go wrong, unless they overheat. I imagine eventually the belts will need replacing.
18:02 a major... joysticking point?... I'll see myself out
I once owned Microsoft’s FFB (Force Feedback) first generation, and I used it to fly in IL-2. The amazing feel of the force feedback had me hooked. However, after Microsoft produced the FFB second generation, they stopped making improvements, which was very disappointing. Over the years, I tried several other force feedback devices until last year when I got the VPforce, and so far, there’s nothing better. By the way, MOZA’s misuse of VPforce’s open-source code is disgraceful, even though I’m from China.
Any good / bad ff sticks?
Is this stick's precision good enough ?
Any news on when the winwing ffb is coming out? I’m really tempted to get a ffbeast too
I've not heard anything more than, they're working on it.
Whats the game in 00:24? I've been looking for it since ages :D And now on with the video... :D
That would be Wild Metal Country, I think its abandonware now. Was a pretty fun tank'em up in a desolate landscape collecting coloured boxes. Or you can drive a rocket propelled sphere around if you want XD
I still have a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback stick. I loved it. But about 12 years ago the rubber all over it turned totally sticky and so now it is unusable. I was very disappointed, as otherwise it stilled worked great. The plastic just aged and got all gooey and sticky…
Question. What did you mean by ffb joysticks are making a comeback? Were they taken off the market? If so, why were they taken off the market?
They were popularised late 90s / early 2000s and after that patents and legal complexities killed them off. Outside of professional simulators they were a lost technology in practise. (Even Sony got targeted for their vibrating playstation controllers!)
Recently something must have changed/expired, as Moza, Virpil and WinWing are all making new designs this year. Then you have the small business home made FFBeast and VPForce Rhino who have been around a couple years now.
Force feedback steering wheels by comparison never had this issue.
@@Htatoohlaing patent trolls. Said patents expired about 6 years ago. No idea why it took so long... Speaking of patents, Walmis from VPForce is claiming that he has reason to believe Moza copied his code... 😵
@@RedKiteRender oh wow I had no idea FFB joysticks were so guarded, lol. I thought people didn't like it and it didn't sell much, so they took it off the market.
It's cool that they are making a comeback now, they make the gameplay experience much more fun and realistic.
When I tell people I use a microsoft sidewinder 2 FFB they usually laugh... they have no idea
What's funny to me is that no one has offered ffb rudders. Nerve even seen ffb brakes for driving sims...
Yeah.. honestly I'm really surprised they don't exist, a FFB clutch would be fantastic
Would you mind explaining the steps to get my old MSFB stick working again? I havd DCS in a Windows 11 operating system
Unfortunately i'm on Windows 10 not 11, first step would be just plug it in, enable ffb on DCS and see if it works, there's a program called FFB tester as well, which you might find helpful. As for drivers, I'm not sure. It's been a while, i think it just worked right off. The Logitech one needed the current FFB drivers from their site to work.
Thank you for your response. Really appreciated. I will have a go at setting it up. I love the Spitfire and F4E and want to see how they feel
Damn, I wish my Sidewinder had more buttons :(
Me too, i use it for Warbirds and the huey, but beyond that you really feel the lack.
@@RedKiteRender Time for an upgrade mate. 😁
Tie fighter!
dcs cant have ffb effects cuz they are gamified but can have a 100% accurate rwr reading and a perfect 90° notch angle XD
Only doing the realistic FFB features means you don't have to make a configurable FFB menu to control the "gamified" features to avoid upsetting purists and allow customisation to each stick. It's a lot of work for a feature that hardly anyone will use, but, hopefully that's changing.
The RWR is a simplification, one Heatblur disagree with! So they model more depth to theirs.
bro just sold me on a 27 year old joystick
i ditched my sidewinder a few years ago.. not smart
Fantastic video as always