Destiny 2: Vow of the Disciple - Raid Tier List Placement (and Thoughts)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 มี.ค. 2022
- With Vow of the Disciple completely dominated at this point, now is a good time to find a spot for where it goes on my personal raid tier lists. We'll talk placement and thoughts on the raid.
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I would love one of these list for the exotic missions (Vox, whisper, Presage, etc)
Zero Hour wins
Definitely Presage. It has the best exotic, the best experience, and the best theme/atmosphere.
Presage > Harbinger > Zero Hour > The Whisper > Vox Obscura
I just did vox master and the combat challenge was very fun the other exotic mission maybe better atmosphere wise but combat challenge vox wins
@@pluto3194 I would swap Whisper and Harbinger position.
Exhibition is so fun when everyone knows what they're doing, honestly one of my favorite encounters. I'm excited for when we get to the point where we are with DSC where we get to Exhibition and everyone just yells, "CHAOS STRAT!" and everyone grabs relics at random.
sadly not because some people prefer to completely avoid learning all roles
forgot to mention with deep stone you never needed all people to hold an augment
@@dominussalt1682 you also don't need everyone to hold a relic in exhibition, good teams will have enough time to wait out cubed resonance and need 4 experienced ppl max
I love getting scanner in exhibition because my team hates my callouts. I used clock times, compass rose directions, anything to avoid using left/right front/back. It’s a great time
@@dominussalt1682 this
I love that Datto can speak for over a dozen minutes and always be purposeful and coherent. Other CCs can’t even make an 8 minutes video without wasting 4 to 5 minutes of it.
I was just about to comment that I enjoy this very same thing about Datto. Well said, sir. Aiat!
Fallout is the same as Datto. Scripted versus off the top of their head.
*cough* *cough* Rick Kackis
30 minute long Intro Kackis here
it's because Datto writes a script before recording and reads it while doing so. he knows what he is going to say, rather than reaching for content
For final boss double dunk strat is genuinely far more enjoyable. It makes you get the damage faster so less time with confusing coms. It also means if someone dunks at the wrong place it’s not a restart. It’s also quite easy requiring only 1 more split
Double dunking is 100% the way to go here.
Double Dunkin is definitely the way to go. Even the challenge was a cakewalk because usually the clan I run with do the double dunking on a regular basis.
Regarding MMO roles like Tank and Healer, I wonder if they could be implemented via relic weapons in a raid. Would neatly sidestep the (relative) homogeneity of Destiny Classes
That would be really cool
Bro I would absolutely hate to be locked into a relic for minutes at a time any more than I have to
A whole raid themed around having a sort of 2 2 2 comp w that would be cool I think as long as bungle made the relics fun to use so it didn’t feel boring locked into a relic the whole raid
Final encounter of crotas end has something kind of like that
@@thefunny3320 there will probably still be non relic runners
I think a reason why Bungie includes the “this person can see the info but the other can’t” mechanic is to lessen the amount of solo/two/3/ etc man raid completions
If that is the case, that's honestly kinda dumb in my opinion. Low-man activity completions are not going to hurt the game, and players who can manage these things tend to be incredible players who put a lot of time and effort into theorycrafting and stuff. It's stupid to see talented players put work in to defeat a difficult challenge and say "well now we're just gonna make that impossible because we want you to do it with six people and you should only be allowed to play how we want you to play." Why shit on good players for being good players? It's not like they're hurting anyone. What's next, "no more solo dungeon runs or high-level Nightfalls?"
well, yes but no. rhulk was my first three man and it's quite easy. even if we could callout ourselves and the crystals didn't need a 3man rotation by force, a duo would still be very fucking hard and barely doable. besides, first encounter has already been cleared solo, and you have to watch for symbols at the obelisk 9 different times per rotation.
yet 3/4 encounters are soloable lmao
Finally! I got dangerously close to forming my own opinion. 😱
The "I see something that you can't" mechanic that's been so prevalent recently is the new "Stand on the Plates to do the thing" which ironically this raid has that mechanic too lmao. They're both good mechanics but we've seen them so many times it becomes less and less interesting overtime.
As for the Rhulk shield phase for callouts and splitting, my team has found that if one person is managing callouts of when to split and who is getting the buffs its alot smoother. (For example. I manage them and I tell player 1 to Crack big crystal and split it to me and player 2. I split telling specifically player 3 and 4 collect the buff. We then have 2/3 leech, 4 holds to split. They split with me and player 1, when 2/3 dunk, and I split to 2 and 4 again. Player 5 manages callouts on pylon symbols and ad clear. Basically, if I tell everyone where to go and what to do when, nobody else has to really think about the fight and just listen. Only ever have a problem when someone is rushing the mechanics and dunks solo.)
100% agree with Datto's (and your) take on this.
We've had a bit too much of this. I mean, they're good, but it's pretty much tapped out.
I wonder if it's possible to have logic puzzles on the fly, instead of I-see-something-and-must-tell-others. Not sure if this can be done.
@@cykeok3525 I think it can be. I worry bungie is scared of another Last Wish Vault encounter situation where so many people fail the day 1 challenge simply because a puzzle might be a little hard to initially understand. It has to be satisfying to learn how puzzles work or players will hate it. I still have friends who refuse to learn vault because it overwhelms them to think of the solution since they've struggled with it so much in the past.
I prefer assigning roles at the start for 2 dunkers and 2 splitters. Splitters should always try to split the buff if they can by standing on plate, with dunkers shooting the left crystal and the other splitter shooting the right crystal. By designating a side this way you don't even need callouts or anything, the buff just gets split repeatedly until theres no dunkers without a buff to shoot the left crystal and they can go grab emanating and dunk. Very automatic, and splitters can effectively read solo by reading a side, passing buff then reading the other side.
No need to number players this way either
@@cameroncurtis7261 don't normally number players and we actually do split our team, 3 left and 3 right. Players were numbered simply so people could follow what I was saying haha
Still kind of blows my mind how last wish is such a good raid that people played for 24 hours straight and still think it’s their most enjoyable day 1 raid
I do like vow though, it kinda feels like last wish 2 darkness boogaloo at times but still distinct enough where I don’t mind it really
Last wish IMO was my fav day 1 experience, there was just something special about it, it just felt like a real mmo game like kings fall, and I always enjoy watching last wish day 1 videos all the time bc of how people were so excited
Man I hated last wish lmao the raid was way too long and the mechanics were too difficult for the lack luster loot. It had about 2 good guns and that’s it. I did 3 runs, got the exotic and stopped playing it.
@@gamerclips1882 just get gud lmao
But seriously yeah, it’s complicated at times, but honestly it doesn’t feel like a bad complexity, it gives a challenge and everyone has to understand what they’re doing. It’s not like you can shove someone in a corner and just tell them “clear ads”, you have to be involved and paying attention. Which imo is what a raid should be, not just a glorified strike mission or something
IMO the reason last wish wasn’t completed by as many people was for two big reasons. The leveling system being very stingy, slow, and bad and the fact that they only gave until
Friday of the first week to prepare. That’s what made it to where so many people just weren’t on level or severely under leveled for stuff that they probably would’ve been a little better on had they been giving an extra week like DSC and VoD
@vineapplepizza yep
Being in the arena with Rhulk, working to break his guard while he fights back is peak destiny raid bosses in my opinion. It's just so nice to have a boss fight that actually feels like a boss fight, especially when you break his guard and he goes berserk.
I also find the jokes and fun in this raid comes from the callouts people make with the symbols, my personal favourites so far being "Scorn kill guardian" and "Pink floyd loves doritos"
It’s a great raid, but it’s def a good bit more on the technical/“be on your game” side of things. It’s really split up my clan between the guys that can focus up and do every role with minimal issues, and the guys who just want to wing it and a have fun time regardless if it makes the raid a slog. It’s been kind of a problem.
same bro
Basically it weeds out the guys who want to joke around and add clear all raid. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
@@bongobang77 oh for sure. Having fun and screwing around is half the fun. But when a raid goes on too long and the everyone is irritable and on edge because of it repeated failures is the issue.
@@bongobang77 I agree for sure
I took 3 first-timers last week and as long as everyone isn't actively throwing, you're fine. Everytime you wipe it's clear what caused it, and it's really easy to just say "Guys, I know you're finding it funny, but I really need to get this done withing the next hour, could we please stop trapping people in Caretaker symbol rooms until they're at 9 stacks?". Also, I think there's plenty of room for not being in full gamer mode. Only times you really need to focus are when reading obelisks on 1st encounter, and matching symbols on 3rd encounter and Rhulk.
As of rn this is my favorite raid. I love the aesthetic of the pyramid with the worm god in the background and being able to see the final arena. Encounter wise I enjoy all of them for the same reasons pointed out in the video. All the symbols call outs hasnt worn me down yet and rhulk is my favorite boss especially once my team started doing two symbols dunks
I think it's a mostly enjoyable raid now that my normal group has more experience under its belt. I enjoy the Caretaker encounter and I do like Rhulk DPS. I've never wanted to bang my head against a wall more than I have when we were learning Exhibition. This raid exemplifies why I love Crown (you can't carry anybody, EVERYBODY needs to know the mechanics during the important parts), but it also exemplifies frustration when execution isn't 100% there.
Umm only 3-4 people need to do anything on exhibition
@@crota4051 as far as I'm aware, you can't pick up another relic as soon as you trade yours off, and complete the encounter in a reasonable time.
So, 3rd room and 3 people put the relics into the holders before room 4 and the other 3 people have to pick them up.
On every encounter only 3 or 4 people need to know how to do the mechanics making it one of the easiest raid to carry people because having 1 or 2 prople mess up almost never results in a wipe if those are not doing the important roles
@@helleboreofficial4692 no lol, you have two people deposit and have the third wait until the other can pick up again then he deposits, then he can wait 30 seconds and pick up again or have a 4th pick up. The door opens after a sec even if you leave all three relics, you don’t need the vog relic because there are walls to stand by that take away pervading darkness.
@@crota4051 every person has to do at least 1 relic
Honestly for me, being in “gamer mode” most of the raid for me is a way better experience than not. I find VOG to be boring after how many runs of it I’ve done.
Also I love the third encounter for the same reasons you do; everyone has to do something and it’s so much fun. Probably one of my favorite encounters of all time
I have to agree, it's why I dislike Caretaker so much compared to the rest of the raid. Boss stunning is extremely simple and boring once you know how to do it, so basically two people do the encounter while everyone else waits for them to do the mechanic.
Totaly agree on the "too much callout" part, even with a good team who have played Vow multiple times, there is no "joke time" during encounters because of too much symbols.
And because of that, Vow will never be the "chill" Raid DSC and VoG were. The encounters are fine and somewhat fun, but between the 4, we could have used one or 2 w/o such intense callouts.
Apart from that, it's a pretty good Raid, maybe a little too much on the easy side for combat (I didn't do the Contest this time), lore, aesthetic, loot are very good imo.
The caretaker encounter is so far my favorite raid encounter in D2 bc imo it feels like an actual mmo boss fight rather than the typical stand here shoot head stuff we’re used to. I usually play a tank role in other mmos so actually having a boss with a taunt mechanic is so refreshing
I like this raid a lot, every encounter is fun and I enjoy them. My only hesitation on giving it top3 is there’s a lot of travel and distance between encounters, especially before Boss fight. There’s so much time for energy to drop between encounters.
Just use eagers edge and it makes travel time very short
The only raid that really had back to back encounters was Croats End, and it’s considered one of the worst raids. I like tho. I like that raids feel like a journey
@@wyattfields5580 the best raid is Crotas end
@@wyattfields5580 Yeah, especially being able to visibly see the progression to the final bosses arena throughout the raid, thought it was a great touch
Ya I feel like the climb to boss at the end wasn't necessary...Nor was the ridiculously long intro encounter. I feel like the actual encounters are quick, but the filler in between makes the raid too long.
Ran it the first time yesterday and it was definitely an incredible experience
Hey Datto. My team had problems with on my go as well. What we found is that you need to wait for BOTH of the enemies to shoot the obelisk, AND, wait for the in chat message (an obelisk takes damage) before you can kill either of the yellow bars. Hope that helps.
Its really fun once you understand what's going on, but i feel like it suffers from the Last wish/DSC/KF issue of if you're a lil unsure of what's happening, the experience is gonna differ drastically. Vow is definitely easier to grasp though and think it only competes with DSC for atmosphere. Personally, think its top 3 behind DSC and Wrath of the Machine
Definitely feeling that. I do a lot of Sherpas for people and doing this with a team that knows what their doing vs people on their 1st time through is a difference of 3-4 hours on a run (people always trip up on 3rd encounter).
Deep stone crypt becomes incredibly easy once you understand what each pickup does. Callouts are simple and none of the encounters force the fun out because of how much is going on
For tank roles and healers, i can see bungie maybe adding some sort of relics that give you increased damage resistance (tank role) when picked up but you deal reduced damage and another that allows you to heal teammates, or armor set traits like the gambit prime ones
I haven't played Destiny 2 since The Taken King and I still actively watch your videos man! 99% of the time I'm playing Call of Duty Zombies, but I have always stuck with your channel ever since I started Destiny with Vault of Glass. The game is looking a lot more balanced the more I keep watching your latest content. Really appreciate the hard work you put into your commentary. It's nice to hear from someone who really knows this game well. 💙🐻
mob of the dead >
Love this raid. Only have a couple clears, but I’m still comfortable with all the encounters. Just haven’t had enough time to do more than 1 a week. Completions have been relatively laid back with Lfg groups and still very enjoyable. Definitely up there as one of my favorites. Can’t wait (hoping) for the new King’s Fall.
Datto, about the first encounter challenge, what worked for my team was the defender using a glaive. I know I know but it was perfect for not accidentally killing one of the yellow bars with an AOE and it does pretty good add clear in an easy setting. It was still a pain in the ass but certainly easier than anything else we tried
Exhibition is my second favorite raid encounter of all time, just behind Vault from LW
Something you didn’t touch on is a plus to the symbol mechanic being “overused” you don’t have to Learn any new mechanics cause technically the third encounters relics all are reused and have the same symbols for every encounter means that pretty soon you’ll just have everything memorized after a couple runs
That's a bit of a stretch, I'm sure a majority of people who have played this raid don't know any other relics besides vog
I think it was done on purpose for that sense of familiarity
@@mitzi3262 the nut mechanic was used in shuro chi
The first triumph with the lurkers we used stasis to slow things down, and always killed both glyphkeepers to reset the timer. Eventually they had to be unfrozen and killed while they were shooting the obelisk, but stasis reduced the chance of something going wrong.
I took several tries though before we could make it without wiping to the ritual
One of my favorite raids for sure
You are one of, if not, the best and most consistent day 1 raiders Destiny will see. Even if you don't get that coveted World's First, your name is known and will go down as a legend of Destiy Raids
I'm finding that Rhulk is a really smooth encounter every time, and most times, so is exhibition. The other two are usually incredibly smooth, but damn there are so many bugs that completely halt both pretty long encounters.
I liked the raid for many reasons, but one was the distinct 2-3 unique roles each encounter had. This allowed picking a role that was fun for each individual that played to their strength and away from their weakness.
For the final boss, I use a number system when explaining to people how to go fast.
The two splitters would be 1 and 2.
Two bankers are 3 and 4.
Splitter 1 shoots starting crystal, stays on platform so that splitter 2 and banker 3 can shoot right and left crystals respectively.
Now splitter 2 steps on platform. Splitter 1 and banker 4 shoot crystal.
At this point, splitter 1 has the buff again, and 3 and 4 can get emanating to bank.
Repeat.
If you’re doing the symmetrical energy challenge, then during the third banking step, simply skip player 2: 1 splits directly to 3 and 4.
Works like a charm even on LFG most of the time. (Though I often get some backlash at first: “Omg but that’s not how we do it..”. “This numbers thing man, too complicated.” Until they see it in motion.)
We do this aswell, it was super chaotic when doing double dunk so I just suggest that the same person holds leeching every time and this way it’s consistent
I agree 100% on stopping the symbol overload. I wanna play Destiny not Memory. Hopefully if they bring back King's Fall they'll leave it alone since Warpriest had symbols. Having so many callouts like that just feels like cheap difficulty
Warpriest never had symbols. Just looking at the glowing rock and stepping on the plate.
For final encounter, to ease communication with double dunk strat, we write out the swapping and dunking order in chat for each round, then me or someone else will be specifically dedicated to calling out names for swaps, which ensures that the only other callouts are locations and glyphkeeper symbols at the start.
I agree got 11 clears it got me back but I always come back to do these. I tell you what this one was the easiest to get ready for all three characters.
Datto, thank you very much for responding to me on stream, and for making this video. I and the community appreciate it greatly. Rico
My raid group finished the obelisk challenge by just constantly freezing everything and bullrushing the signals and callouts and fast as possible. You can typically reset the obelisk before it sustains too much damage. The biggest key is making sure you know the tricky spawns of the knights and killing them as soon as you see them, starting the next obelisk sign.
Vault in LW is my favorite encounter in any raid, but Exhibition/Gauntlet in Vow gave it a run for its money, the fast pace is fun
Vault, Exhibition and The Descent in DSC are the top 3 raid encounters in the game and nobody can change my mind on that
I know you're not super in tune with the lore Datto but the sheer narrative impact of this raid puts it in the top 3 for me. Rhulk was hinted at in the story and fully revealed in the raid for the first time, and between the raid dialogue and environmental storytelling, the in game lore, and the Preservation mission that opened up after the raid was cleared we got all this new insight into his origins and the forces of the Witness and reevaluate how we view the Books of Sorrow and the story of the Hive, who have been pure evil in our eyes until this expansion. Rhulk has been in the game for two weeks now and he's honestly one of my favourite characters they've ever introduced.
Going back to the campaign and seeing that the Relic was literally sitting and waiting for us to find it beneath a (broken) statue of Rhulk made me feel so dumb for missing it the first time, but wowed when I did spot it
The symbol overload and truesight mechanic are fair complaints. I definitely kept forgetting callouts on day1 caretaker and truesight has probably outstayed it's welcome with this raid. However, I think the Rhulk fight showed their MMO chops, and if they lean in that direction, we'll see some good fights in the future. I don't think you're giving caretaker enough credit - Sure, really good teams will make it seem like the other components don't exist, but for everyone in the middle of the bell curve, you will notice right away when someone messes up or needs help. Good video, Keep up the good work!
We beat Exhibition last night FIRST TRY with 2 of our clan mates that hadn't had any raid experience yet! Felt amazing!
Keep the thoughts coming. They sustain me oh great one
I'd have to say this raid is easily one of my favorites. The aesthetic to the raid is absolutely on point and I love it. I think it is super neat that you can basically see the entirety of raid map and get to see the other encounters (like seeing the 4th encounter from the 1st or vice versa).The only thing missing in that regard is a banger soundtrack like Deep Stone Lullaby (not to say the music wasn't good).
The loot overall is fantastic. I love the fact that the weapons and armor have animated moving parts to them, its super cool. The weapons available are also pretty solid, like the raid pulse is really good and has some great and unique perks available.
I feel the encounter design is pretty on point overall. The first encounter is a bit boring IMO for both runners and defenders for having a bunch of waiting time, but its still fine.
Caretaker is good but with damage gating and having 3 whole floors plus a final stand floor that outside of day 1 (and presumably master) feels drawn out for regular runs.
I thoroughly enjoy 3rd encounter for the ability to do chaos strat and not designate rolls before hand and just go. There's something very satisfying about doing rolls on the fly and being able to beat an encounter. The pacing of the encounter is also good. Also, I like using relics.
Rhulk is easily one of my favorite bosses for breaking the "generic giant version of a regular enemy that stands in one place and occasionally shoots you with a basic attack that is not threatening" mold. The Rhulk boss fight is extremely memorable and distinct. I enjoy his various attacks during the platform area that continues during damage phase. The objective for the encounter being "DROWNDROWNDROWN" and the voice lines he says during the fight are a pleasant icing to the cake. I do wish he had more voice lines in frequency and variety for the fight, but still. I do feel the encounter does kind of drag on a bit, but if you're doing the 2 dunk strat then it goes by noticeably faster so its not bad. As more teams get comfortable and know how to do 2 dunk strat then the pacing of the Rhulk encounter is good.
My only real complaint is that the raid does feel like it drags on with the opening section taking longer than desired combined with the pacing of some of the other encounters.
Once all of the weekly challenges and master mode comes out, we can see how that might affect our thoughts on the raid afterwards.
Final Boss has a rhythm to it that can be hard to pick up, but it works really well for double dunk teams like mine.
1st splitter gets buff (or has buff from a previous cycle) and stands on the Give plate.
2nd splitter and 1st dunk get the buff
2nd splitter stands on Give
1st splitter, 2nd dunk get buff.
It's the fast execution of this splitting that can make or break a smooth run on Rhulk, though you do have a bit of leeway. Sometimes 2nd dunk is a little slow on their buff and doesn't get the laser in time, meaning everyone has to pause and wait for Rhulk to laser again which can put people's timers down to 3-4 seconds by the end of a dunk phase.
I finally cleared Vow im so hype
Honestly the whole symbols and things other people can't see is why I don't do raids anymore. Mixed in with mechanics that if you fuck up even the SLIGHTEST bit it wipes the team. I thought last wish was a little ridiculous with its symbols and "only other people can see it" stuff so to hear its just more of that in this raid turned off our entire raid group
I swear I could listen to Datto's thoughts on literally anything
We don't have Tanks or healers, but I feel like Relics could be a stand in for that. Encounter 3/Upended Climb gave us a bit of a taste with Laser holders only being able to kill knights, Aegis holder cleansing and what not.
I'd love to see massive battle encounter like Siege engine with relic role mechanics.
Great vid, I agree with the day 1 stuff.
You’re lying the video has been out 2 min and the video is 14 min long 🤨
@@ethanrichey Local youtube watcher doesn't know that the upload time lies to you.
Hey datto you should make a tier list for dungeons i have been looking for one i don’t think anyone else has done it! maybe even a strike list too if you like it
I’m not in love with the symbol mechanics and I wish there was another boss fight but overall it’s a solid raid. I hope bungie will take the rhulk boss and keep pushing it forward in the next raid/s making the bosses move and dynamic with several attacks
This raid desperately needed another boss fight. Its why kingsfall is most people's fav because it was destiny's first real fight the big bosses wow style. 4 sections with 2 being read symbols/kill ads feels more like a raid lair and not a full raid.
There's just no character to it besides rhulk we needed a rhulk underling fight after exhibition otherwise it just wears out it's welcome.
I actually really like the symbol callouts in this raid. I don't know what it is, but they're really colorful and easy to communicate. There might be one or two that trip me up from time to time, but overall I think Bungie did an excellent job creating symbols that are almost instantly communicable, even if we haven't all agreed on the same name for them.
Shoutout to the artists that made those symbols. Each one is eassily identificable (except maybe Witness and drink) and represents the concept of its official name well enough. Thats a good graphic design job
Please Datto, do not belittle yourself. You guys did crazy good
Well*
The thing I hate about this raid is how everything just revolves around 26+ different symbols. Instead of making unique mechanics for encounters, they pretty much just slapped the symbols onto every encounter and called it a day
I'd put Caretaker and the third encounter up there as two of my favorites of all time. Love the platforming in both of them. Could run them all day. Rhulk kicking people off the platform is amazing but that's about it. I think my list is Last Wish, Vault of Glass, King's Fall, Vow.
The only section that is still hectic for me is the 3rd but it still manages to work out. I can confidently say the entire Rhulk fight is like clockwork once you get it down. Fantastic Raid, hands down. Just the right amount of mix to where you can't be a bum and get carried, engaging enough to be fun, and not overwhelmingly mechanic heavy on everyone at any given moment..
leviathan will always be my favorite because no other raid replicates it. Everything about leviathan was fun from baths, to dogs, to running, to the boss. It's a huge breath of fresh air from the constant symbol call out stuff we constantly get currently
I want to see how these Raids will hold up by the end of this year with all the Light Subclass changes.
Idk if you know this datto but on caretaker you can grab 3 random symbols and just shoot all 3 symbols on the same side (if you have a raid of people everyone shoot all 3 on one side) so it completely negates callouts and allows for more focus on damage
I love the 3rd encounter with all the relics having their own job but it might possibly be the worst encounter to teach people because for some reason nobody gets it. This is the first raid in awhile where you can't fully just carry ppl through which is nice but that's kinda the expectation now so i've had much more trouble teaching this raid compared to the last 4
I'm very much a tale of two sides in this raid, I usually Sherpa and teach raids and help kinderguardians and this raid is an absolute nightmare to teach, and run with lower skilled guardians, but then when i jump in with my usual end game raid groups it's super smooth and done in just over an hour
For the third encounter Relic holders can see the Shield bois calls and cheiftains are other bois
4:00 is sadly my experience with the many times I've LFG'd the raid. VotD is one of my favorite raids, if not the most, but with the amount of communication required for something vital to the mechanic, it becomes a pain when you're trying to get the encounter done and one person is talking to the group about how they're very unlucky with raid exotics and their friend got it first try on a carry while someone else is chiming in their own experience on top of it and then before they know it "Oh we wiped! Who's fault is that?! Who didn't do the call out?" and it's me over here waiting for the opportunity to say something between their non-relevant conversation; And if you raise your voice in an non-aggressive manner, you're an asshole for talking over the "chill vibes" which creates animosity towards you. I've had this experience too many times that I don't look forward to raiding in VotD with LFG where as back during Leviathan I'd be do it multiple times a week and sherpa it just for the sake of doing it.
These are the groups the make me to want to leave instantly. When it comes to raiding I need no „chill vibes“. I want the job getting done which is clearing the raid. Yes you can have „chill vibes“. If all in the group are so experienced with the raid that everything works first try without having to pay attention. Otherwise: no
@@berndguggi6057 to me chill vibes is people not ragequitting at the first error, not someone recounting the full story of their lives while in an encounter. If you wanna chat in jumping puzzle parts, sure. In boss fights? Hell nah!
@@el_kitteh720 Absolutely agree. With „chill vibes“ I meant people talking all the time during an encounter so other players miss callouts, producing unnecessary wipes etc.
I feel somewhat alone in feeling like this raid is somewhat mid-tier. Obviously people love it because it’s new, but besides the communication fatigue mentioned here, I also feel like the raid is only fun for a few people. Anchors in the first encounter are just killing adds and occasionally calling light/dark. Add clear for both bosses is boring, plus stunning caretaker gets pretty monotonous after your first few clears. In Rhulk, if you’re not actively dunking, you’re just killing and shooting crystals. I feel like it’s hard for EVERYONE to enjoy this entire raid, and I feel like it won’t age as well as things like Last Wish.
I do a lot of LFG’s Raids, and I can say that a lot of people struggle with Exhibition. The rest of the raid and including Rhulk himself are so brain dead easy I’m already bored of doing this raid. All 3 of my characters are max light and with my seasonal rank being +20, I’m waiting for GM’s content now. Other than that, weapon crafting is mid. This raid is mid. Maybe when Master VotD comes out it might pose a challenge.
@@DefyLov3 I’ve also done a lot of lfg exhibition, I’d recommend just showing them the 3 man strat and doing that instead of having everyone doing a job
Your not alone, I’m not a huge fan of this raid either
I will say that this is true of every raid. Almost every raid has like, two add clear people, or very simple jobs. Even Riven legit has one add clear on both sides, which is mostly optional thanks to the taken ball. Taniks? Dunk ball, dps. Atheon? A bit more complicated, addclear if you dont get teleported, run across and shoot oracle if you do. Gos final boss I would argue tries the hardest, building is tough if your team isnt clean, but most people dislike it.
I will say a mechanic I wanna see more is random roles. Atheon sorta forces it, DSC forces it with the random disabling augments, Queenswalk does too(which is why lfg struggles there). Makes everyone learn the mechanics, and pay attention.
Rhulks dps phase is really fun and I get a lot of enjoyment trying to execute everything correctly to get big damage. I really like the third encounter once I learned it. Learning it was tough tho. First encounter kinda drags but not as much as crown first encounter or confluxes.
I do wish that the pre damage phase of rhulk was more engaging. Most groups go 1 dunk at a time, which I think is the easiest to do with lfg and also is only slower than 2 at a time if you split fast enough so that both dunkers are getting emanating immediately every time. But going 1 at a time means half the team is just sitting there.
Overall a top tier raid for me, mostly because of rhulk and that if you know what to do you can go pretty fast. And the loot is dope!
I used Messenger, a slug, and a linear fusion and invis hunter for On My Go challenge. Slugs are very nice for killing the shield enemies and the lack of AOE weapons and abilities will make ad clear a little bit more difficult. Definitely don’t want to unintentionally kill the shield enemies.
I was eating full lasers on day one with devour procs, it was rarely threatening
You know, I think your thing about the "Tell other people things they can't see" mechanic has kinda made me realize why some of my favorite encounters are what they are. One of my favorites is shuro chi from last wish, and that mechanic is completely absent from that encounter. Of course, that's not the only reason I like it. I love the pace of it, and how good it feels when everything is going well, but I also love how there's room for improv. Another encounter I really like is the decent from Deep Stone Crypt. While telling people things they can't see is a mechanic, it doesn't feel so central, and the person calling the stuff out is switching from time to time.
On the third encounter. My team has found a way to do it so only 3 people use the relics. Assign a relic to 3 people, assign that person a partner. When it comes time to drop the relic in the alter, and the partner picks it up, instead have the person drop the relic on the ground. Have the partner pick it up off the ground and wait the 30 seconds for the debuff to go away. The partner then puts it in the alter and the original relic holder can pick it up again. This only works if you kill the knight right before going into the alter rooms so you have a decent amount of time to wait out the debuff.
I think the symbols played such a big role because they were also telling a story. The symbol wall was meant for the players to figure out, and I think the usage of them in every encounter was meant as a clue that these symbols could be used to communicate something more important than what to shoot.
Chaos strat in Exhibition is so fucking fun man.
I've done it a few times now and it's just crazy
This raid is already top 3 for me personally. Rhulk is such a great final boss and the relic encounter is one of my favorite non-boss encounters as well. Also, this might be the best looking raid imo
Your only saying that cause it’s new
@@crota4051 and probably bcuz they've never played a raid other than dsc or vog
@@hide186 lol exactly
@@hide186 It's certainly better than Vault of Glass, Crota's End, most of King's Fall (Golgoroth and Warpriest are really the only good bosses), Leviathan, Eater of Worlds, Spire of Stars, Scourge of the Past and Crown of Sorrow.... So it being top 3 for someone isn't exactly something that should be seen as unexpected.
And I've played every raid, so can't play that card against me.
I really enjoy this one as well. It's one of the few raids where I don't mind every encounter and the 3rd one is probably my favourite one in the game. My previous favourite was 3rd encounter DSC and it's like that but a lot more chaotic and you actually move around. Also lot has more replay value than the other raids once you get the exotic because the weapons are all craftable.
Would still love a podcast style video where you and other top raiders get together and design from the ground up your own raid, from encounter name, mechanics, one off challenges, challenges, etc.
This comment reminded me of a real old vid of Datto's from back in 2015 where he designed a raid encounter. Some of the mechanics mentioned even got used in a future strike boss down the line. Would love to some more videos of that kind again, would be neat to see given how much the game has changed since then and Datto would be bringing in some more experience/insight as a raider in Destiny. Would also make for a fun project when the game hits a dry spot? *wink wink nudge nudge*
The vid in question for those interested: th-cam.com/video/1SYLdnmlNtE/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Datto
Memorizing the symbols is the hardest part about this raid, as soon as you have the symbols down the mechanics are super easy and I feel like I'm only held back by lack of communication. The exhibition run is fun and still has the emphasis on coms but with the three relics there's more than just symbols
They should add crotas end back in but with the following changes.
Death singer gets the treatment of VoG gatekeeper and becomes a real encounter.
There's a Boss on the Bridge encounter.
Then you'll have four encounters which is the same size of DSC.
As a D1 and D2 veteran I'm proud to say that this raid is the reason I'm excited to start playing them to very serious level again. it's definitely my favorite raid yet just because of how unique it is. I love the raid there's no encounters that I think are bad it's all very interesting and the rewards do NOT disappoint. 10/10 bungie. well done.
I'm honestly just tired of having symbols be the main foundation of raid mechanics. I personally like Garden of Salvation because of how it's mechanics don't involve a bunch of memory games with obscure symbols.
The tether mechanic is it's only negative from my perspective and this opinion is entirely due to other people struggling with it. It's a simple mechanic to grasp but it seems like most people have trouble understanding how it works for some reason. I think it's because subconsciously players hate when they can't shoot their weapons (when tethered) while enemies are there to be shot. If not for that and everyone's horror stories from divinity runs, I think that raid would be more appreciated.
divinity runs are so dumb because sherpas decide to do a div run when the person is also learning, overly extending the time of an already long raid (its long because its sherpa, add divinity into that and bang very long)
@@yol_n To be fair, most first timers that want to do garden is because they want divinity.
My whole team did a div run for their first run including me and it went fine. Some people are just dumb
@@FadedMaple07 thats a shame. I think it's a pretty cool raid.
That's why we need pinnacle rotation, give reasons to run other raids.
Here is an idea for a raid mechanic, have a boss encounter where the boss is an ally who's health bar is already low and the goal for the encounter is to raise it back up so they can help later in the raid. Could have it where this ally is the one doing damage to the main antagonist of the raid and the players goal is to make sure the ally doesn't get killed.
This raid was my first day one experience and for that reason it's always going to be a special memory. Starting with a group of semi-strangers, working together through it for 18hours and then finally beating Rhulk in the same instant that he wiped us is simply unforgettable. I was just so thrilled to have been successful on my first attempt and to have done it in the first 24hours using mostly just our own strategies and brainpower. This raid is just awesome and I look forward to more day1 raids. Vow itself now I think I can't judge without bias and it is my favourite raid
The first encounter lurkers challenge is a pain in the ass. I realized that 1 lurker shoots the obelisk so it says "obelisk is taking damage" BUT the second lurker just stares at it. So people kill them but the second lurker didnt shoot the obelisk yet
I feel like this raid has a pseudo feeling of "tons of comms" when in reality, its one of the fewest comms in recent raids.
I disagree, on the first encounter especially you can have almost 4 people talking over each other. So you have to focus who is giving callouts to who. Compared to dsc, every encounter is at most 1-2 people giving callouts at a time. You don't even need to say a word on the final encounter and you can still clear it.
Raid is fun, visually amazing, and great lore. But it's not really hard at all. I worry that it will drag like DSC after a few weeks, but maybe Master will be more engaging (though if it's anything like VoG, it will turn into "do the challenge and dip")
The final boss fight is a nice swing between easy callouts and OH SHIT WHAT IS GOING ON NOW! and it was really cool to experience
Exhibition (3rd Encounter) is top 5 raid encounters for me. Its hectic, fast-paced and intense. It can be frustrating if your team doesn't know what they're doing but when everyone is on the same page its so much fun to run. The raid itself is top 3, with DSC and WotM imo. I feel it has a good balance of action and platforming, but does have an overreliance on symbols. 27 (26? can't remember) is a bit much as showcased by the myriad of names that different teams use. Joining a group and having to relearn certain symbols can be frustrating.
You are the face of Destiny on TH-cam this year. It’s different to see you like this
I enjoyed Vow a lot. It was my first ever day 1 experience. My team didn't complete it, which is fine. I still had a blast. I come from an avid MMO raider background, and I find most if not all of Destiny 2's raids to be mechanically simple in comparison. This raid definitely divided portions of the clan I'm in. Like you said, it requires a lot more focus and being on the ball than most raids. Otherwise you have to wipe or entirely reset a portion of a fight. I personally enjoy the challenge. Raids are supposed to be an end game activity in my opinion.
the first encounter is like a speed run for the squad i run with
Question for more experienced mmo players, as I’ve really only played destiny 1 and 2. What are some ideas/examples of other raid mechanics that might work? Seems like most destiny mechanics are a combo of “stand on a plate,” “pass info to those who can’t see it,” and “transfer buff from one place to another”. None of these are bad, I’m just curious what some others could be
As far as I know a lot of MMO raid mechanics rely on the third person perspective in order to properly convey information to the players. The first person view Destiny has limits that a lot because they can’t splash a closing circle around your feet or as easily place crazy ground AOEs because you’re playing with the camera in your avatar’s head, not zoomed far out so you can see the whole battlefield at once.
The first person view really seems to limit what Bungie can add and make it feel good to play.
the problem is bungie has made believe the community that their looter shooter is mmo first, when its clearly not. a lot of the elements stem from your typical shooter mechanics mixed in with those mmo elements. issue is finding balance between the two without one breaking the other.
The main ones I've seen in my time raiding in other MMOs (which you haven't listed) are:
- Group, everyone comes together to survive something
- Spread, players spread apart two avoid some kind of pulsing mechanic.
- Soak, a player voluntarily takes a debuff to prevent the whole group from taking it.
- Link, two or more players are linked together and must do something (for example, make a shape).
- Block, a player purposefully stands in a beam and takes damage to prevent it reaching the boss.
- Taunt swapping, tanks must regularly swap boss aggro otherwise they'll die.
- Kiting, players have to continually damage a target while it chases them.
- Timed kills, one or more enemies have to die within a window of each other, otherwise something bad happens.
- Multi boss encounters which change depending on which you kill first (think Ornstien and Smough from Dark Souls).
- Cleave, during the boss dps phase there are also other high value targets which must be damaged in order to prevent a wipe.
- General environmental hazards, like strong winds or a black hole you have to resist.
- Absolutely obscene DPS checks.
I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Some of these have been used in one way or another, but could definitely be iterated on and improved for use in Destiny. Others haven't been seen, but could and might end up actually being really fun.
I wonder how well a Limit Cut mechanic would work in Destiny (Everyone gets marked for one of two attacks that the boss does in rapid succession, usually with the attacks being different for odd and even numbers).
I actually have not finished the raid yet as my group are 5 hella casuals and then me with 2000 hours in the game but thats fine. So far though its actually close to my favorite which was Scourge. First encounter I enjoyed but Caretaker I find really fun because of the way we ran it. Because my team is very casual they dont do symbols very quickly meaning that I have a lot to do as someone helping with stuns. I go from stun to ads to footballs and back with no break in between and I love it. We havent gotten to third encounter but im looking foward to it.
Can we get another exotic armor tier list? Been a while and I loved those videos
Hey datto it's gonna be my birthday very soon and I was wondering what dlc should I get shadowed or the witch queen
This raid definitely made me have a bit more understanding of the LFG phrase "must know what to do."
The fact that the boss is actually mobile in a raid was very refreshing. While I love the raids it’s always been a meme how most bosses just stand stationary and let you shoot them.
Mate this raid was sick on contest mode. I agree it’s a cake walk with contest off. But as a D1 it was very very good.
First, can largely agree with everything said about the symbols, would love some experimentation or at least some more 'combat execution' raid area's instead of strictly 'read X to the team cause they can't see' style stuff, but for now I think it's still largely fine.
Otherwise, I think once more of your typical team members get used to the raid it can definitely get pushed up to 'RAID NIGHTTT' tier, I know for my team/clan it's getting there pretty rapidly. The raid has a good 'eb and flow' to it when it comes to it's encounters and call outs once you got members that know what is happening. Opening sections a good section to shoot the sh$%, first encounter you gotta buckle down a bit but (assuming your not doing the optional challenge) it's largely a continues flow from start to finish, just 'call compass, dead, call symbol, guy goes, calls side, another compass called out, compass dead, symbol typed in chat' and so on and so forth, with it feeling nice and fluid once the team has a handle on it, with a small moment of 'meme time' between each 3 stack to giggle a bit at a one off sentence to lower anxiety. Caretaker is just full meme time for my team at this point because we run 'two two two', two add clear, two symbol runners, two stunners. The add clear and stunners have no call outs at all (the stunners just stand one on each side, standing ontop of him, and just bounce pass stunning him over and over making him just unable to move at all), and the symbol players only call out 'door' every so often, as they use smg's to make punching in the code doable even if it's on all 3 sides by themselves. There's a few mess up's here and there, but with the boss left null and void by the stunners keeping him near at spawn the entire time, they have plenty of time to do what they need to/wait a second or two for creeping darkness to drop before going in again, making the full encounter a large cake walk and very fun. That leading into a jumping section gives even more time to lighten the load and enjoy each others company, before encounter 3 as you say is just enjoyable chaos. We use the knowladge that the first two dropped symbols and then the second two coincide with one another to streamline the call out process to 'one side calls out what their keeper dropped, the other side types in the matching one while calling out, then do that a second time and continue', making the process infinitely easier and streamlining it to just a chaotic run slay fest that doesn't take to long. And then a nice smaller jumping section to shoot the sh#$ again before the 'alright buckle down lets finish this' with call outs for Rhulk. I will say that one is nice though as we did Rhulks optional challenge this week, and that makes the process so fast and fun. You basically have 2 'leeching cyclers' and 2 dunkers, first cycler grabs the buff, passes it to the second cycler and one runner, and then the second cycler passes it back to the first and the second runner. Then the leeching people call out the symbols, and the second cycler (who is always going to be 'outside') calls out the equivalent symbol on the 'outside' before calling out the 2 dunk points. An important thing to note is that so long as you don't drop leeching, the symbol stays the same through out the entirety of that phase. So after the two dunks, just the same cycle of passing leeching occurs (we streamline it so that the dunkers always shoot left, and the cyclers always shoot right) before another string of call outs and dunk, before the cycler just passes it to the two dunkers one final time (one dunker now shooting right if left was already shot) and one final call out before DPS. It speeds up the encounter so much, and helps it a lot in terms of general game feel so that you're not just feeling like 'alright, just gonna wait around here with these easy to kill enemies for a while', hardly even notice the time going by before you're up in rhulks arena fighting him, and doing the normal 'shoot, call out, shoot call out' etc before DPS. The fact he's easily 2 phasable off contest helps a lot too, making it a very satisfying and quick way to finish off a raid night with great execution.
So yeah, while it's not 'the entire raid has you shooting the sh@%' like in Deepstone, I feel there are still a good number of moments where it can happen, and I think the fact there is a back and forth helps make it one of my favorite raids to date so far. Can run it just for the heck of it and feel like I accomplished something but also had fun with friends, so do hope your teams get to enough familiarity with it to make that the same feeling for you! (and hope this massive explanation paragraph might have helped in terms of streamlining some of the encounters to make it so!).
I'm curious what other raid mechanics we can come up with other than symbol callouts?
My list.
1. Vow of the Disciple
2. Last Wish
3. Wrath of the Machine
4. Kings Fall
5. Garden of Salvation
6. Deep Stone Crypt
7. Scourge of the Past
8. Vault of Glass
9. Crotas End
10. Levithan
11. Crown of Sorrow
12. Spire of Stars
13. Eater of Worlds
Agree!
Do 2 buffs at once during rhulk. Buff 2 players with emanating. Shit makes it cheese. It's 3 rotations instead of 6.
You have to do it at the same time though or the symbols will swap.