I'd like to see champs replaced by the various alien races and given "powers" similar to what the hive lightbearers have. Give each of them some way to interact with the player in combat form and not just sit there when weve stunned them and they are melted via rockets/special weapons.
Honestly , the fallen already sort of have this in a way with the Stasis Captains, if there was more variety and more danger to theme I feel like they could act as a mini boss that has to be dealt with and killed or else
@@Rainbow-vf5uw That's what I mean let's get those in place of random no name champs. We have a variety of enemies that have different tactics but we stick with these same boring tactics.
Lucent Hive, to me at least, make Champions obsolete. They’re a high-priority target that involve a pinch more thought to perma deal with them without heavily restricting your loadout.
I agree. I honestly think that the way to go is for them to add equivalents to the Lucent Brood for every enemy race, in the context of their story. Fallen, Cabail, Vex, etc. So instead of forcing loudout changes, every enemy race will have elite powered enemies for harder content that requires more active gameplay rather than forcing loudout changes.
I think having to think about loadout is part of the fun, so some restriction is good. (like in raids) But when it's too much, it breaks our builds and forces meta Arbaleist or whatever.
@@elsienova4269 This is a good idea, but champions should still be a thing. That being said, you should be able to apply ANY champion mod to the weapons of your choice. Eliminate gun specific champion mods.
@@joisama Match game is a lot better for loadout restrictions than champions. You still have to coordinate with your team and pick the right elements, but you have a variety of guns to choose from. Having to deal with both match game and champs is stupid and tedious
@@deezosaintloyal That'd lock you out of Exotics again like it was before last year. What I think would be better is that you have all anti-Champion mods be possible to equipped at all times on your gloves, and a set of them are cheaper when they're on the seasonal artifact.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints about this sort of combat difficulty increase isn't to do with the fact they're making things harder, people seem to like that from what I've seen, it's entirely to do with how champions work. People are getting annoyed that in harder things we can't always use the guns we want to use especially in this time of more loadout and build options. Being forced by match game and champions to use not only specific guns types for the champions but specific elements for match game goes kinda against that whole idea. And nowadays with bungie kinda encouraging "monochromatic" builds through things like volatile rounds it's even worse and likely to go further this way when the other subclasses get revamped if they follow a similar idea
Let's not forget how unreliable and buggy champions are. Overloads can be stunned 10+ times in a second and still get back up to one shot you. Same goes for unstops/barriers to a lesser degree.
to me, day1 and trio vow were more fun than master vow. soloing the legendary campaign was more fun than master vow. that time i voluntarily got kicked in the nuts by teenagers for 3 hours straight was more fun than master vow. and it is in fact all because of champions. master rhulk isn't even that hard. there's no difficulty there. it's literally just champion spam.
I seriously don't get what Bungie is smoking trying to be so insistent on monochromatic builds when there's tons of situations most especially in higher end PVE content where having variety and agency is the biggest difference of doing a "big hero moment very watchable recovery" if you're the last guy alive with available rezzes and pulling your pud trying to whittle down a mismatched energy shield and kill an unstop with no anti mod on. That's not to say that running monochromatic loadouts and not having everyone sorted for champions and shields equals some insta disaster that is impossible to do, but it saves a hell of a lot of frustration when you have your bases properly covered. Bungie delivered us the exact same pitfall early Armor 2.0 had with having to horde variety of armor due to affinity restrictions by not having universal orb gen mods. Even if it's a cheaper change price to change elemental affinity ,it's still an annoyance factor.
We really need to talk about how the only reason to run Master raids is for triumphs. Doing harder content should be rewarded with actual, meaningful rewards, not a title that you'll equip for one season, then unequip next season when a new title comes out. In D1, we did Hard mode raids for weapons that were notably better than their Normal mode counterparts, and those weapons dropped throughout the entire raid. Let's go back to that system.
And then everyone complains about "gatekeeping" rewards, and how unfair it the system is, that they have "no chance" in PvP/Trials because they don't wanna do hard content. This. is. why. we. can't. have. nice. things. It's sad. Remember how everyone used to complain that adept weapons were "locked" behind flawless, and gave people an "unfair advantage"? When in reality the differences between adept and regular weapons were(are) so tiny, it was pretty much just for cosmetics. (Only meaningful thing is Adept big ones really) Now ALL OF A SUDDEN, everyone wants adept weapons buffed because they realize how pointless they are compared to crafted weapons, basically admitting that they were not that meaningful in the first place. And it's not just because crafted weapons get enhanced perks.
@@kilianbalter yeah those people will complain no matter what cuz they dont have the thing others have even tho they dont put on the effort to get them. Bungie only catter to those crybabys and it shows on how d2 is shit. Difficulty is no where to be seen and we get showered with loot thus making loot meaningless. Remember when destiny 2 was a good looter shooter? I dont.
@@troudbalos333 We do have difficulty, in the form of buggy Champions, Match Game, and poorly tuned damage increases that makes stuff like GM Lightblade painful
Apparently DMG has said on Twitter that VoG next season will be the same as Vow is, the two will not have their differences in the future. I'm not on Twitter that much, so I missed it, apologies. Also, I misremembered that Bungie started with hard mode and then ripped things out for normal, not the other way around. Think I was thinking of something else. But, the point still stands: they didn't like doing that. Also cool, I never actually pinned this comment, so all good.
I don’t see what they didn’t like about it, as doing it that way, from a player perspective, was exponentially more fun and made D1 hardmode bring something new. Their current philosophy is ass backwards and having to suck it up and bite the pillow…sucks.
I don’t get why they’re so stingy with the raid adept weapons (I.E. they only drop from the challenge on master instead of just dropping everywhere instead of normal weapons) when they’re allow you to grind GMs over and over for a bunch of adepts or now in trials once you go flawless as long as you have seven wins you can keep getting adepts. Adept weapons drop frequently from their other sources but not from raids which seems weird to me. It just encourages spoil farming and getting a boss checkpoint instead of running the actual raid
@@SsoxHp the bug beforehand allowed anyone who had ever gone flawless to grab the passage of confidence and get the loot the entire weekend. The new system allows people to grind flawless pool for that loot. Basically you now have to go flawless that weekend and deal with flawless queue, but the same system exists.
@@solkvist8668 ah I’m with you, thank you. I went flawless the week before last but had no wifi this weekend so missed out the easier chance where I can just vibe in freelance 😂 oh well, back too it next week it is
The recent Trials Adept changes makes me think they have something in the pipeline for their plans with raid Adept weapons or at least how they're obtained
God I hate checkpoint farming. I like running the whole raid, beginning to end, and nothing spoils the momentum than a bunch of goddamn character swapping and wiping to get checkpoints. And all the groups I normally run with ALL do it.
One problem with the "people pee their pants when going in with 1578 power" is, when you don't have a group that you raid with and have to find randoms, there's a bit of felt pressure to be on level i had both, incredibly chill fireteams that didn't care when i was 5-10 levels below and multiple fireteams that instantly booted me when seeing i was 1-5 levels below recommended It's the whole "bring gjallahorn, sleeper, vex and your grandma" thing I know one person that plays destiny and can't pull 2-3 extra people into the fireteam at a moments notice when someone leaves, we literally had to stop a vog clear before because 2 people tilted and left and nobody joined for 15+ minutes and the fireteam disbanded bit by bit I get that people like datto, who have raid teams and stuff, want to be heard, but i struggle to belive that the average, or even "more committed than average"-player has a group of 5+ people that are ready to raid most of the time Mind you it's still important to have this kind of analysis from top-level players to evolve the game further
I love how I always watch these videos in full anyway, knowing very well that I am not at all the guy who is attempting this stuff. It's just entertaining to listen to Datto talk about anything lol
After this video... my interest remains low to middling for Master Vow. As for "increasing difficulty," I really enjoy increased combat challenge. I really don't like Champions. So contest appeals to me a lot more than Champions.
As a corrective measure simp, I am glad to see it getting the recognition it deserves. DPS is bad but with the abundance of heavy, and it's reserved, it's a very strong primary weapon
Been maining Corrective since I dont have a great Commemoration, and it fuckin slaps for ad clear with volatile rounds Edit: Ill probably be maining it in Exhibition now tbh
I think what they could do to help the Adept vs Craftable method is to fuse both into one. Obtaining the Adept weapon unlocks an option to turn your Craftable version into an Adept with the ability to slot Adept mods and have double perk slots to choose from. It makes it where the systems won't cannibalize each other and allows you to get the absolute best version of said weapon without needing to consider holding onto multiple. You conquered the Master challenges of the Raid, you grinded out the Deepsights and unlocked the Craftables, you leveled up your weapon manually- so you should have the best one available.
I don't mind increasing exclusively combat difficulty since combat is intrinsically tied to the mechanics USUALLY. What bugs me is how Bungie's idea of "increased combat difficulty" seems to be "bro make something a champion" and "just throw on match game lmao". It's not a test of skill, it's a godamned inconvenience, it chokes buildcrafting (and thus skill expression, which should be BETTER in high-end content), and I'm frankly sick of it. Legend Mode Witch Queen was the best difficulty spike this game's ever had, and it seems clear from Master VotD that it is the best it will ever have for the forseeable future. More enemy spawns between encounters, higher quantities of enemies, and faster/more aggressive enemies. All good ways to increase difficulty that don't involve forcing me to micromanage my entire godamned raid team's loadout. You want to make champions useful in raids? Make them exploration filler. Stick a few champs in the many side rooms and corners Vow has, and give me a chest or even just some spoils for taking the time to beat them. Make people that want the extra rewards put in actual effort and skill to learn the WHOLE raid environment, not just blurs of platforming between encounters.
The good takeaway from this is that Bungie now knows that WQ Legendary is what they're looking for in terms of difficult but fair and not annoying. It was universally praised. So I hope Bungie took the message and started drafting and modeling new "hard" content after it. It won't come fast, development takes time...but I hope that by Season 19, they'll either get rid of champions entirely or replace them with Lucent Hive like units.
Exploration rewards is a fantastic idea. That's basically how Champions work on the moon which is when they were first introduced. Bungie is devolving again
Chokes buildcrafting? It encourages it. Datto made a whole new build with a glaive of all things. With no champions it doesn't matter what you equip at all so why even bother with buildcrafting? Unless buildcrafting = equipping the meta in your eyes.
@@Gainersy match game + champions means everyone MUST equip a handcannon, pulse or glaive to deal with an unstoppable champ (for example) and the match game makes it even more restrictive on which of those handcannons or pulses you can even use. It does not promote build crafting, it tunnels everyone to the same stuff worse than the meta does because at least then people have the choice of experimentation.
@@Gainersy How is equipping 1-2 mods and 1-2 specific weapon types to handle a certain enemy type "build-crafting"? That generally is used to refer to the loadout that you're using, the combination of subclass + stat spread + Exotics + weapons + mods. You can absolutely adapt or make builds that counter Champions, but clearly you can't always use what you *prefer* against all Champion spreads because e.g. you wanna use an SMG but there's no Overloads, or Match Game discourages using the specific Pulse that feels the best to you.
Yeah, although annoying at first once you figure out how to kill them quickly it's incredibly rewarding with the amount of heavy/special you're producing with aeon/lucent finishers. Contraverse allowed me to have my grenade every overload spawn, and it took 2 reeds shots and a finisher to kill refunding me the heavy cost + some more.
I really wish Bungie would go back to minor changes to encounters for harder difficulties, rather than sticking with the “let’s just throw some champions in” theme they’ve been going with recently. Either that, or just don’t bother with the harder difficulties when there feels like so little reason to complete them.
Master mode is so fucking underwhelming, exact same as the challenges, bungie could've done literally ANYTHING ELSE that might've been slightly interesting but instead they chose 'here's rhulk but theres 2 champions and you deal 20% less and take 20% more damage hope you enjoy this new content x' even something as small as killing the wizards in caretaker or something is better than absolutely no effort
My issue with master raids is about leveling in general. I've been playing Destiny since d1 launch, and I'm so burnt out on grind. I don't want grind artifact value so I can play endgame content for a month or two before having to regain that light at the beginning of the next season. At this point, day 1 raids and dungeons are the only thing that excites me in D2. This issue is less with Master raids themselves, and more with core issues in D2 piling up. This raid is fine because 1580 is reasonable, but why can I play old master content at the end of a season but not the 1st several weeks of the next? New content being drip fed throughout a season is fine, but I was high enough level for GMs and old endgame content last season, so why does old content need to be drip fed.
playing a 1350 raid at 1340 is the exact same as a 1550 raid at 1540, power level is arbitrary and isn't real. Game would be a lot better if they just set power levels to the recommended for the entire raid. It's really annoying too when you start playing a new season or expansion and they literally just throw 200 light levels at you for nothing. Like ya cool, I didn't just spend the last month of the season slow grinding up to the soft cap thanks to the horrible RNG system that comes with "Prime" and "Powerful" engrams.
Same. Been playing D1 since launch and getting really tired of the arbitrary power grind. My buddies want me to get up to 1575 so I can do GMs but I hate Champions and just don't feel like grinding the same activities for pinnacle gear that may or may not help me depending on which slot it drops for. Instead of Power they just need to have 3 difficulty levels for all content in the game Normal, Heoric and Legend. The power behind-the-scenes can just scale relative to those 3 difficulties.
Seeing as we're all pissed off by the same point. The stupid artificial Light Level power grind. Can I throw one more thing in that really grinds my gears? GM's and Master difficulty raids are one thing... and the resetting of the power levels each season another... But why is it that _that 30th Anniversary bundle_ dungeon, Master GoA, that I additionally payed for, is at 1590? That's like fucking renting it every season if I'm only gonna be able to comfortably do it at the back-end of each season. I understand that they don't want everyone to _rush_ all of the content immediately, and they're using -cheap ways- the _now_ market standard way of retaining customers, timegating and dripfeeding, but there has to be a better way than to force the slower, lower light level players to wait until the last weeks of the season to get to see the content... before they're reset again at the start of the next season. I'm high enough for the content, but that's besides the point, the point is why'd the game think I wasn't high enough until the 200th hour dropped, despite me wearing the exact same fucking masterworked gear as I did for the very 1st hour.
The adept weapons shouldn’t even be a thing. I’ve seen people say that a memento that converts your weapon into an adept for only vow weapons would work and i think that should be the solution. You still have to work for it, it doesn’t undermine the normal raid weapons, and it makes the memento not only cosmetic. and since Adepts are technically a separate weapon from the normal ones, all the memento has to do is allow you to slot adept mods on. Crafted weapons already get a stat boost at level 20 which is identical, or if not identical, extremely close to the stat boost of a master worked adept weapon.
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not insane for just thinking “remove adept weapons from the game” and lean into crafting. It’s great bad luck protection. What you do with master raid loot then, is either just drop randomly with enhanced perks to save Alloy and Element if you’re lucky, or experiment more with armor. Maybe have set bonuses become a thing that can be utilized outside the raid. Or Pre socketed 0 energy cost armor with additional slots. Armor has more room for experimenting. Really hoping bungie leans into crafting as having a pathway to the roll or rolls I want is there whenever I put in the time for it.
I like the idea of harder content rewards better stuff the only issue I have with it is the current set of adept weapons are so minute in difference to the normal counter part it makes them boardline pointless
I’m glad they added it but I have literally 0 desire to do master Vow. I’ve accepted that hard modes are never getting new mechanics like they did in Destiny 1, but due to that fact I will never even bother setting foot in them unless all my friends really really want to do it.
I always look forward to doing the master raids and GM nightfalls every season. The problem I have is the being time gated on top of having to do the same level grind every season just to be able to enter it. I would it rather just be contest so it cuts out the leveling part and I can just do the raid since I’ll be under light in the first place when it comes out.
No way the let the players get a couple of god rolls that easy, without playing/engaging/spend time with the game. With contest mode, the hackers will have a field day, they'll just disregard any light requirement and get free god rolls. The hackers were a menace in Trials until the light requirements were introduced.
@@daedalus6433 In pve? Its the easiest. I even got a message with their prices just yesterday. Idk why people would pay for these and not get the weapons legit but w/e. Their prices are: Normal Vow 19$, GM 22$ (probably arms dealer), Trials Flawless 39$. Mythoclast 99$, C.Obligation 119$. And for this week, S.Neuroma Adept 34$, Timelost C.Measure 27$. For PvP they toggle their cheats on (when they lose) and off. Few are the idiots who leave them 24/7 and have abnormal stats like 95% handcannon headshot accuracy.
@@daedalus6433 oh its ok bro, i'm sure the hackers only stick in Crucible & Trials.. /s Also both hackers & paid carries are blatant TOS violations and are subject to life bans, players that do both, well there isnt a higher punishment/penalty for then
In D1, I did every hard mode raid at least once a week. In D2, I have done exactly zero master mode raids. I like the mechanical difficulty increase over the combat increase. But more importantly, there's just not a good enough motive to get my team to actually want to put the effort in for a master mode. The combat difficulty increase is a bit too much for some of my players, and while I could easily just go LFG for master mode, I don't like to do that to my guys. I miss D1's take on hard mode raids, is really what I am saying.
Agreed, I don’t mind raids being harder but hard mode VOG was annoying as hell. Max gear score & plus 15 on the artifact getting one shot was not fun to make me ever want to do it again.
After playing FFXIV for about a year now I really wish bungie would design raids hard mode first. High tier raiding is so much fun in that game and the fight building on existing mechanics so cool. I played Vow for a few weeks on release because new content, but I'm already so bored and burnt out with it. I'd like the vow seal but it just seems like too much of a pain in the ass for me to actually play for
Master is not a replacement for the "hard" raid in D1. The "hard" raids in D1 weren't actually difficult, normal mode VoG in D2 is more mechanically challenging than D1's "hard" mode of the same raid. Master didn't replace "hard" mode, they just removed the easy mode.
Ok, I agree to an extent. I thoroughly enjoyed D1 raids (wrath, like it is for many, is one of my favourite raids), however I don’t think using D1 hard mode as a shining example of what hard mode should be (or at least *an* example). D1 normal vs. hard mode faces the same issues as D2 normal vs. master. Let’s be real. In D1, once you did the normal mode of a raid, that was basically the only time you Needed to run it to unlock hard mode with the only exception of if you wanted shaders or armor (or in KFs case, the white versions of the raid weapons). If memory serves me right, the differences of normal vs hard mode armor and weapons (especially in wrath) were specifically cosmetic. In KF, the only difference between weapons was the fact that NM was white, HM was white and could potentially be exotic adepts. The normal mode wrath armor mods were identical to the hard mode armor outside of ornament slots (and you could even get NM weapons in HM)! D1 hard modes also had bonus mechanics that considerably boosted player morale and players opinions on the encounters and hard mode as a whole, adding an extra layer or element of difficulty. But, as Datto stated in the video, Bungie does not want to do this anymore. In D2, what purpose do you have to run master mode raids once you get the triumph seal and any optional adept weapon you want? In D1, what purpose did you need to run normal mode raids once you had already beaten them once to unlock hard mode outside of any cosmetics? Yes, one of the main topics covered here in Datto’s video was incentive to run master. But, D1 normal/hard faces similar issues as D2 normal/master (only in reverse) except there is no obligation or requirement demanding anybody to run master unless the player wants to-the player, in question, is someone interesting in grinding the most endgame of endgame level content, a very minor crowd. Would I like to run master over normal with more incentive? Yes, absolutely. But I don’t want to gloss over the fact that one raid difficulty mode in both D1 and D2 were HEAVILY prioritized by the fanbase over the other.
I want a GM raid and every chest is a straight up loot explosion! Ascendant shards, artifice armor, adept weapons... the whole 9 yards! Though each encounter at GM lvl and just cracked tf out
I’ve always wondered what a GM level raid would be like. I’d wait for them to adjust what higher level content is first before they tackle that type of shit. If I need Overload to stun Atheon for damage I’m going to commit a hate crime.
IMO it was very poor game design for the relics to not break shields or be able to stun champions. Make the beam break solar, make the taken orb break void (it does) and make the shield break arc. Having half your team for most of the team unable to break shields or stun champions when match game and champs were added was beyond frustrating. It feels lazy and not play tested by bungie at all.
@@UMADBRO64 I hate overload champs being stunned in some areas of the raid is terrible. Other than that, it's fine. I'm happy with harder content raids
I think the commentary on difficulty this time is a little different than what you laid out though; a lot of people are just frustrated that Bungie's only way to ramp up difficulty seems to be to just toss a shitload of champions into the mix. It's just getting old, and forcing players into very rigid loadouts isn't compelling enough of a difficulty spike to simply apply to every activity in the game. Doesn't mean there isn't a place for it, but seeing it yet again for Master VOTD just seems lazy in most people's opinions, ESPECIALLY after the Legendary campaign did a great job of showing how champoins aren't necessary for challenging gameplay. I disagree that regular Vow is at the same level as the Legend campaign; maybe it's supposed to be but in my experience the combat difficulty is piss easy in comparison. At the very least content mode represents a pathway to increase raid difficulty without again relying on the crutch of champions. I think that's what most people are pointing out now. And frankly Adept weapon are immediately obsolete unless you're just unnecessarily desperate for Adept Big Ones, which makes so little difference in the grand scheme of things that I don't know what the point would be.
When you are putting in relics for 3rd encounter, the one that resets the timer is the laser pointer. All other relic holders can put in their relic and if you have enough time, they can wait 30 seconds before putting in laser pointer for the debuff that prevents the pickup of another relic to wear off so the same people can pick up the same relics. Obviously you don't need to do this but it can be helpful for LFG or helping a friend who is new or not confident so that they don't have to hold a relic. I only mention this because I noticed everyone deposit their relics at the same time. All you have to do is make sure the final person to put in a relic is the laser because that is what resets time.
5:55 I have been using the glaive and machine gun for gauntlet since vow came out and the combo feels really nice plus is master mode it just fits perfectly with the shields and champs.
I don’t think you’re in the minority in enjoying harder content. But there’s a difference in hard content that is fun/engaging to do, and content that is hard because if champions and making everything hit harder. I’ve never once had fun fighting champions. Bungie just needs to stop using the laziest methods of making things harder. Should’ve stuck with D1 and just added more mechanics. Or just make it so you wipe if you don’t do the challenge in every encounter or something. Would be way more fun.
You make a big deal out of LMG + glaive in exhibition, but honestly I don't get what everyone's issue is with LMGs... They're amazing for ad clear, *especially* adept corrective, *especially especially* with volatile rounds being the new hotness. And exhibition is almost all ad clear. Of *course* it's good there!
The issue is that they got a pretty sizable damage nerf back when Thunderlord was the only MG, because of a knee-jerk reaction to seeing it one-phase Riven while in an autoloading Well.. It's been partially reverted since then, but it's still not as good as it used to be for adds or bosses.
Add Clear is fantastic on LMGs, But GLs & Rockets require one shot to clear out what a whole lmg mag would require. Plus losing your heavy for Add Clear basically limits how much DPS you could put down on a Boss due to their damage outputs being on par with special weapons
Yeah the minute I knew how packed Exhibition was on Day 1 raid and that there wasn't much need for boss dps weapons, I put on Recombination+Rampage Comemmoration with witherhoard and Funnelweb and went nuts. No regrets
I still wonder if Adepts not dropping from encounters is a bug especially since the TWAB last week said "Each encounter completed also has the chance to drop an Adept version of a given weapon for the raid." Definitely feels weird not having Adepts drop, especially since they're not tied to challenges and triumphs like VoG.
In terms of Master VoG compared to Master Vow, next season Master VoG and GoA will be lowered to 30+ the powerful cap. That was mentioned in the 14Apr22 TWAB. Nothing about the extra VoG modifier
30+ on the artifact is entirely too high for anything in this game. It just punishes people who don't have as much time to play. I'm plenty skilled enough for master raids, as I did it before. That being said, I don't have the time to grind +30, just for it to reset 1 or 2 months later and grind it all again. It's stupid.
@@FlashesSoccer011 It’s +30 on the powerful cap, not pinnacle cap. It would basically be the equivalent of master GoA and VoG being lowered to 1580 this season, like master VoD.
@@mytho9110 yeah I know. I'm saying in previous seasons it was +30 on the pinnacle cap for master content. I don't agree with that. +20 isn't too bad. I'd still just prefer content mode.
Thinking about it now, i feel like getting an adept form of a crafted weapon should allow you to have a perk choice for the 3 and/or 4th slot. That'd make the adept and crafted weapons synergize at least somewhat, instead of being directly at odds with each other. Also if master vow had, like, a memento tied with it
You mentioned artifice armor in the video. I find it a bit off that the required light level to farm it this season is 1590. Unless im mistaken thats a higher light than the GM nightfall and matches the master raid which are the pinnacle activities this season. Any thoughts?
Don't even get me started... 1590 is bullshit for GoA master. My main reasoning is... I just bloody bought the thing as additional content last season, and with that kinda requirement, the only time I'll get to play it is towards the mid to back-end of any given season in future. I just find that really weird, and a really weird decision by Bungie, I mean... I bought content, I didn't rent content for X weeks out of the season. Its not a timeshare in Majorca.
@@zubrhero5270 I never thought of it like that. That is a great point. I've only ever been able to do 1 master run. Strictly because, I don't have the time to grind to +30 while averaging 60 hours a week of work plus other adult responsibilities. Not to mention, even if you I did manage that, it just gets reset in like a month and I have to do it again. The artifact power bonus was one of the worst additions to the game.
Also, the legend campaign didn't have champions and hard caped your level to a lower level so it made you actually use tactics and not just "LEROY JENKINS" your way through the level.
Kinda feels like you’re speaking to a number of different groups with distinct opinions/wants on hard mode raids as if they are a unified group of irrational thinkers. They’re just different people, no?
IIRC bungie said this twab would be weapon tuning, so you may be right on your point on bungie elaborating on changing adept loot a day after you post the video
Turns out, the high level add clear encounter is actually the perfect situation for machine guns. They’re meant for high level add clear by doing way more dps than a primary ever could while still having tons of reserves, and they do it WELL.
@@troudbalos333 Heavy Machine Guns never stopped doing damage, they've actually only been buffed. The only nerf they ever received was from back when they were first reintroduced and were melting bosses like it was nobodies business. Their stated role is strong add clear, and it's what they do indeed excel at. I don't know what worlds you're living in where SMGs have a faster ttk in pve than machine guns. The same damage buffs that are available on SMGs are available on machine guns.
Lubraes Ruin really shines in first and third encounter, ESPECIALLY if you're a hunter, im apart of the group thats cant stand glaives, but throw on suppressing glaive, stylish executioner you cant die as a hunter unless youre making some sort of mistake
Spamming champions doesn't make it harder. What made the campaign fun was that I could try whatever load out I want, not the number of shots it takes to kill an enemy or how much damage they do
I believe I spotted a glitch from this video, jump to 12:17 and look at Datto's pervading darkness, it goes from 6, to 5, and then he is cleansed. It starts going down as he gets close to that wall. I have heard of a glitch in third room to be able to do this as well. I will test it this weekend when I can play Vow.
Also the armor dropped from Master Vow ignores your ghosts armor mod. I had a pair of boots drop with 29 mobility, and 2 recovery, but I was running the ghost mod to get a GUARANTEED 10 recov, but get this, ain’t GUARANTEED after all
I honestly loved the rise of iron treatment. Ornaments/adept weapons/ challenge but not too bad where it’s a “turn off”. Of course I have yet to join master Vow and I’d like to. But I have yet to touch master VOG since I wasn’t a big VOG player d1 and I don’t have enough time(forgets bounties) to get to pinnacle cap and season power up fast enough. Yet I loved the rise of iron taken king treatment. I was my absolute favorite thing to run. So yah. More of a Rise of Iron treatment would be my want.
They don't necessarily have to add new mechanics, but they could however add the things like the feature in the Hard campaign which caused the acolytes to drop a sun spot. Things like that would be cool and doesn't sound very hard to add.
Maybe it’s just that we had a couple of weaker players but master feels weirdly hard. Like I got conqueror last season and have done fatebreaker and so on, but master vow feels so painful. Ad clear feels like a losing fight on first encounter especially when going for challenge, and caretaker’s overloads are significantly worse. The challenge mode for caretaker will also likely be horrific since it will spawn 18 overload hobgoblins each floor at minimum, which seems brutal to me. I think champions are moreso the issue than anything else, but I’m surprised that our team has made less progress than we did on day 1 in the same time. It’s just really rough. Not looking forward to the gauntlet, it’s going to be hellish. What I do know is the rewards for it are extremely forgettable. At least VOG gave fatebringer, whereas master just gives you effectively identical weapons that you cannot craft. Adept weapons should just drop with enhanced perks or at least the ability to craft them. Otherwise they are just harder to earn the adept ones
It's perfectly summed up by the triumph for master mode giving you a sparrow, something that has been completely overshadowed by always on time for 4 years now, vow is a completely uninspired lame ass raid that shows how comfortable bungie is getting based off of first impressions so they dont feel the need to put effort into the game anymore
I get I can go in under leveled into a master raid and that’s cool with me that’s how I prefer it, but as the the light level complaints in general…Honestly for me, it’s just the level grind. And it’s more painful because I used to be that high level player that got on every night for hours and was like alright we’re doing 3 runs of (enter raid here) on hard mode tonight or we’re going flawless on all 3 characters this weekend boys. But I was 16 when destiny 1 came out and now I’m 24 with a full blown life. I want to be THAT player again but I physically cannot fit it into my day or even weekends anymore despite however much I want to. And when I can on the off chance… I couldn’t every other week or weekend so I’m not up to said light level so… I can’t even though I have the time today. It’s painful to have the skill to have all adept weapons in the game in D1 and to go from sitting on top of a block in the Nexus nightfall with icebreaker for hours to get gjhallerhorn (I got it my 3rd week I was lucky af!) to never once having been able to hit the light level requirement to even try a Grandmaster Nightfall in D2 even with a 6 month season (I was 2 light away MAN AHHHHHHHHSOD DISBHXDBJDDJDBH). And that one’s not necessarily Bungies fault but man I wanna bang my head into the wall because of it.
Datto, i haven't heard anyone say this yet but I really would have liked with s17 raid playlist to have difficulty tiers like the nightfalls. say 3 levels, 1 is base, 2 being contest, and 3 being master (but make master have contest modifier on like GMs) and give tiered reward structures as well. slap a master raider seal in the game and lots of ppl will be grinding. oh yeah, and like, bungie, just make adeot weapons craftable. like, this isnt hard..
Master difficulty raids in D1 were the full experience of mechanics and enemies in that raid whereas the normal mode just took out a few of those mechanics and that was great! Saying they rely on Champions is an understatement. A master Rulk encounter with no mechanical changes and actually being the easiest encounter is an insult to Rulk they need to apologize! Not to mention no exotic raid ship, ghost, or sparrow loot like the Master D1 raids would offer with "Everworst" existing making Master difficulty that much more worthless.
Champions are fine, a special enemy with a special mechanic. I wish there were more. The problem is not champions, the problem is champions are broken. You can hear the stun, you can read the stun, champion is not stuned. And Overload deserve an special improvement. Is stasis interaction with their stun intentional? Because that is bad. Auto rifle and smg stunning take too long, why? With a bow you can handle an overload, it will never regen, with AR/SMG it doesnt matter if you keep shooting it will regen. Is the only thing we are supposed to use Divinity?
Maybe 3 difficulty tiers: Normal: The standard raid experience and loot drops Contest Equivalent: Tough but not too tough with increased spoil drops and chances at high-stat armor/upgrade mats. Maybe super rare adept drops? Higher exotic drop chance Master: Same as it is now except no more exclusive highstat armor drops. Double it up with armor and weapons dropping from each encounter, with a guaranteed raid exotic for first completion.
On the adept vs crafted argument, the one challenge clear I've done this week I got the gl, which I then spent all of my spoils on getting a good roll of because I haven't gotten a single red one to drop from all of my clears even with the red weapon challenges. Kind of a niche situation, but now that I got a good adept roll, I don't even care if I craft one at all. It's a per person argument for every single weapon in the raid. I don't personally think you need to be able to craft adept weapons, but that's partly coming from the fact that I think most of the enhanced perks are worthless anyways
I personally like Contest more than the Master Raids solely because I absolutely fucking hate champions. Especially the Taken Overloads are fucking stupid to deal with, instantly rapid firering their balls at you while you try to stun them (if they don't glitch out and regen through your SMG) and if you don't melt them they almost instantly heal themselves. I loved the contest combat difficulty with less champions though. It was fun fighting hard adds that don't force you into certain weapons/subclasses. I don't know but contest was way more enjoyable for me even though I spent a little over 13 hours at Rhulk.
Ngl, I knew that we weren't gonna be getting any enhanced perks on the weapon. The only change that I thought was really possible was that Adept versions of the raid weapons might have an enhanced foundry perk or something.
I remember when exotic adepts were a thing. If I recall correctly they weren't that sought out for 2 reasons. 1) All they did was use an exotic slot to add an element to the gun. 2) Destiny 2 was on the horizon, so grinding for the guns to "lose" them later feels redundant. But what if they brought exotic adepts back with an extra column of perks and as well as a different element? To me that creates a functional trade-off that could make getting both the adept and non-adept guns worth it.
Btw... the one and done thing was For GM For the rest of the video - We need a champion rework - What about mechanic based modifiers? Modifiers that add mechanics to the game and can be utilized on multiple types of content? Remember the D2Y1 Nighfall strikes? Those timed oracle mechanics? Stuff like that, and use THOSE for raids and maybe even GMs and Master content Just an idea
Artifice Armor, Raid Mementos, Adept Weapons for crafting or drops with enhanced perks, Raid Armor Ornaments....they could add so much stuff so people would want to run master mode for more than the title
Well now I'm pissed. I didn't realize the weapons were adept at the end and left my first master clear. Now I gotta go back to get that deliverance or submission
It would be cool personally if master or hard mode has all challenges activated. And if challenges were thought out well from the start it could somewhat replace the old hard mode extra mechanics.
Hive Lightbearers are champions done right. they provide a danger when you allow them to roam free and are hard-ish to kill, but they dont require you to run certain weapons
I saw someone suggest that Master Raid should have a way to provide a specific Master Raid memento that could be slotted into the raid weapons to provide them with an Adept mod slot. I don't know whether mementos can necessarily support that kind of interaction with a weapon (currently seems like it's weapon title, kill tracker, shader) but I think that's something which could be a kind of tangible reward from master raid rather than 2 perk rolls and some high stat armour.
It’s my opinion that for what you would have to go through to potentially create an adept variant of a craftable weapon, the increase of the adept mod in addition to enhanced perks would make it something painstaking, but worthwhile, to pursue, without being incredibly overbearing to metas.
If they’re going to keep champions then they should adjust the champion stunning methods by doing “Overload Kinetic Weapons" or "Unstoppable Energy Weapons" or "Anti Barrier Heavy Weapons" and adjust them to be either 2-4 energy slots to give more freedom to build crafting. we should also get rid of the Match game feature and use the tougher enemy health from legendary campaign as the model going forward. Being told I can only use a Glaive, Hand Cannon and Pulse rifle to stun unstoppables is ridiculous.
I'm more annoyed that Bungie keep on adding champions to the most fun content, especially overloads. I'd be happier if stunning them wasnt such a ballache - inconsistent mods, having to use Div or Secants, ect ect
In regards to "maybe not as many people as I think actually want to run Contest post-race", I direct your attention to the fact Bungie still puts Guided Games in
So I'm totally cool with combat being what gets harder, but I do want to push back slightly on the "they don't like coming up with extra mechanics for master difficulty" argument. They already do come up with extra mechanics for extra difficulty in the form of the weekly challenge and those challenge triumphs. Why not just make it so one of those sets is mandatory for completion on master? As for combat, I'm totally down with combat being harder, even if that's the only thing getting harder. Champions and shield types are not inherently adding difficulty, they are adding loadout requirements. Sometimes that means making meta tools more obsolete, which can make things more difficult because now you have to use worse gear. Most of the time, it's just annoying, like when you had the purple flavor gun already on your character but now you have to go into your vault and find a worse orange flavor gun. Bungie was able to introduce lucent moths and lightbearer hive, which actually do add to the difficulty of certain GMs and all other content without being a loadout gate. Give us more of that, not more match game and champions
I think the mods should be permanent and not seasonal, give every weapon a mod for each type and you can choose what weapon does what. That way you can go off season with a HC with Overload or a Bow with Unstop or an Smg with Barrier. Also that way it frees space on the artifact for more "creative" mods that could benefit that season.
This was my thinking as well, though I don't think it's the end solution. It would be a good change in the mean time while we bungie figures out what they want to do with champions
The problem about Champions in master raids is this: To kill a champion you stun It then kill It, sometimes you Hold back to make sure you strike at the right time. In VoG all champions were supporting the main mechanics, so you could ignore them if you had a different strat. In VOTD you CANNOT ignore them. They made them part of the mechanics themselves. And we are talking about one of them being known as one of the most annoying and Broken of the champion types, in one of the most annoying and Damage Broken races of Destiny. Overload chieftain does What a shield champion and a overload captain does himself. It goes immune by a tótem, nullifying your attempts to stun them
Make Hard Mode include Contest Mode Node on the destination screen to please both overlevelers & the rest of the player base Have Adept Weapons just drop with the enhanced perks instead of the base version. As we all discovered the Enhanced Perks do mostly nothing outside of Slight Duration Increases & slight stat bumps...Which Adept Guns already do half of.
Also Weapon Restrictions via Champions is stupid as hell & I honestly believe the Mods should instead be Intrinsic to the Ammo Type so we still have slight restrictions on how we should set up our loadouts but still have freedom of choice on what to use Anti Barrier Kinetics Anti Overload Specials Anti Unstoppable Heavys
I actually think the 1580 power level compared to VoG's 1590 is great, because while I do be playing destiny 2 I also don't like having to grind until like, +21 on my artifact for some groups who are stingy about power levels when I just need +15 for gm nightfalls
Vow being a more mechanic-heavy raid compared to Vog could be why it's only at 1580. Half of Vog is ad clear so higher LL requirements make sense... ....is what I wish happened. Truthfully Bungie probably wanted to experiment or were pussyfooting the difficulty again. Honestly I'm just not impressed overall. Loot is one thing. But at least Master VOG was, to me, memorable. Underlight combat or onpar with some modifiers is the way to go imo.
There are 3 main issues that block me from even wanting to partake in these high end content: champions, match-game/similar extra shield type modifiers and leveling. These 3 stack up, it doesn't matter the reward, I'm not putting up with that.
My problem is there's currently no incentive to go after Raid Adept weapons unless you play PvP, as the only good Adept mods currently are either Icarus, Range, Stability, Handling, or Big Ones. Combine that with the fact Enhanced perks exist solely on crafted weapons, with an example being Forbearance: The Meta Roll is something like Ambitious Assassin + Chain Reaction. Enhanced AA adds reload speed, which is great on a GL without Auto-Loading Holster, and Chain Reaction gives more ammo in reserves, which to an extent is like a small field prep-like bump to the gun. Whereas with the Adept version, its only upside is having Adept Big Ones and 2 extra perks to choose from. Unless a gun is going to have use in PvP, like for example Timelost Fatebringer, its adept counterpart is redundant if there's a crafted version available. Adept Weapons would be able to match crafted weapons in strength if they rolled with Enhanced Perks instead of the standard versions. That way you can't choose them and you'll need to farm, but it allows players to have a choice in its use. Either get a craftable weapon with a static roll, but you get to pick and choose the perks you get as well as it is evergreen since you can swap the perks on it or have an Adept weapon with 2 perks in each column that are randomly obtained but allow for some flexability for the cost of having to get it randomly rolled with the perks you want. So maybe an Adept Cataclysmic would be better than crafted assuming you get it with something like Fourth Time's the Charm/Surplus + Focused Fury/Bait and Switch. It'd be more flexible, save on vault space, and you get adept mods, but it'll take a while to get that perfect roll not discounting getting something like a Charge Time masterwork or an Enhanced/Ionized Battery in the mag slot. In its current state, Master is just for getting the triumph, maybe getting a cool Adept gun you'll use in PvP, and then getting out.
Datto, maybe I missing something here… why Bungie stopped making raid ornaments a thing. I was hoping it would make a comeback with Master VOG and we will get those ornaments back from D1. That’s another reason to grind master raids. Great vid as usual.
I imagine it was probably due to the community's patience being worn to all hell and a lot of people were pissed when it came to Leviathan and its raid lair ornaments being the new "content" especially when news of Armor changes in Year 2 of D2 were going to happen rendering a lot of things useless. Year 1 D2 was such a shitmess, a lot of good will was exhausted in such a short amount of time. That all being said I don't think special ornaments awarded for particularly difficult content is a bad thing or should never be considered again, but just judging how Bungie usually tends to keep tabs on stuff from the past and have it influence or not influence particular design decisions is why I think we're yet to see a full dive back into that sort of thing. Also without sounding too cynical and just more fact of the matter when it comes to business decisions, there's always more money to be made spending time designing armor ornament sets for Eververse than trying to add more than bare minimum for something like a raid activity's armor set.
@@thealldayspecial Age of triumphs is by far one coolest things Bungie did in D1, but I understand what you meant by then trying to get money for Eververse instead doing something that the community would really love, like bring back the VOG ornament. It’s all about the money. I just think they did a lot things right in D1 that they are clearly not doing in D2. Even Leviathan prestige gave us different type of armor with glow. Thank you for the reply.
My 2 biggest gripes about the master mode is lack of incentive, and champions being used as a fix all for endgame content. Champions need a rework, no one that I've played with enjoys being forced into specific weapon types to deal with champs, it defeats the purpose of grinding out all the godrolls that you want. Personally I'm just gonna play master vow for the last 2 triumphs and probably never touch it again. Also, for the love of God, I hope they fix the champion interaction between stasis turrets and stunning.
I mean even a different armor set for hard mode would be enough to make me run it until I have a full set. Like where’s the hard mode armor from d1? And challenge mode perchance granting ornaments for them like back in rise of iron. That shit was so dope
My only question (because I wasn't around for Master VoG) is wondering whether or not you can spend spoils on an Adept weapon upon a Normal VotD clear.
The thing that really bothers me about the common argument for keeping Contest a Day 1 Only experience - "The exclusivity and the unknown is what makes the experience worthwhile" - is that literally no other MMO on the market does it this way. I think to something like Ultima Weapons in FFXIV - Ultimate Raids are accessible *forever* once they're in the game. Every mechanic is known by every person who attempts them after Day 1. Everyone who clears the Ultimate Raid gets a fancy new weapon skin to use for their classes' main weapon; doesn't matter if you cleared it on Day 1 or Day 1,634. They're still signs of prestige, because only a small percentage of the player base even attempts Ultimates, and smaller still actually manage a clear. The last time I looked at the numbers, roughly 11% of the Destiny community has *ever* raided, whether that be getting one clear of Levi at launch and never touching raids again or getting 3 clears every week on every raid. Even if contest mode were accessible for the entire lifespan of the raid and it gave the same emblem regardless of when you cleared it, it would *still* be a mark of prestige because only a fraction of a fraction of the raiding player base would manage to clear it. Additionally, not only would this would open up the opportunity for people who aren't able to get weekends off of work (service workers, healthcare workers, etc.) the ability to attempt some of the most memorable and challenging content in the game when it's most convenient for them, but it would also give people who are having to work to rebuild their Day 1 teams due to a loss of members the ability to meaningfully get in practice runs with new teammates before the next Day 1 launches. In closing - if your Prestige comes at the cost of accessibility, it's shitty prestige.
I'd like to see champs replaced by the various alien races and given "powers" similar to what the hive lightbearers have. Give each of them some way to interact with the player in combat form and not just sit there when weve stunned them and they are melted via rockets/special weapons.
Honestly , the fallen already sort of have this in a way with the Stasis Captains, if there was more variety and more danger to theme I feel like they could act as a mini boss that has to be dealt with and killed or else
@@Rainbow-vf5uw That's what I mean let's get those in place of random no name champs. We have a variety of enemies that have different tactics but we stick with these same boring tactics.
the Beserkers from Scourge are a perfect example
i find champions are boring because their abilities are defensive focused, we need more lucent hive types which abilities are more offensive focused
Add zorpalods
Thank you for making this video, i was afraid of forming my opinion, but now i won’t have to
Fantano
@@MrN1ckNack Ant
@@MrN1ckNack Anthony
This is actually really sad 😑
Go away
Lucent Hive, to me at least, make Champions obsolete. They’re a high-priority target that involve a pinch more thought to perma deal with them without heavily restricting your loadout.
I agree. I honestly think that the way to go is for them to add equivalents to the Lucent Brood for every enemy race, in the context of their story. Fallen, Cabail, Vex, etc. So instead of forcing loudout changes, every enemy race will have elite powered enemies for harder content that requires more active gameplay rather than forcing loudout changes.
I think having to think about loadout is part of the fun, so some restriction is good. (like in raids)
But when it's too much, it breaks our builds and forces meta Arbaleist or whatever.
@@elsienova4269
This is a good idea, but champions should still be a thing.
That being said, you should be able to apply ANY champion mod to the weapons of your choice.
Eliminate gun specific champion mods.
@@joisama Match game is a lot better for loadout restrictions than champions. You still have to coordinate with your team and pick the right elements, but you have a variety of guns to choose from. Having to deal with both match game and champs is stupid and tedious
@@deezosaintloyal That'd lock you out of Exotics again like it was before last year. What I think would be better is that you have all anti-Champion mods be possible to equipped at all times on your gloves, and a set of them are cheaper when they're on the seasonal artifact.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints about this sort of combat difficulty increase isn't to do with the fact they're making things harder, people seem to like that from what I've seen, it's entirely to do with how champions work. People are getting annoyed that in harder things we can't always use the guns we want to use especially in this time of more loadout and build options. Being forced by match game and champions to use not only specific guns types for the champions but specific elements for match game goes kinda against that whole idea. And nowadays with bungie kinda encouraging "monochromatic" builds through things like volatile rounds it's even worse and likely to go further this way when the other subclasses get revamped if they follow a similar idea
Let's not forget how unreliable and buggy champions are. Overloads can be stunned 10+ times in a second and still get back up to one shot you. Same goes for unstops/barriers to a lesser degree.
to me, day1 and trio vow were more fun than master vow. soloing the legendary campaign was more fun than master vow. that time i voluntarily got kicked in the nuts by teenagers for 3 hours straight was more fun than master vow. and it is in fact all because of champions. master rhulk isn't even that hard. there's no difficulty there. it's literally just champion spam.
I feel like i can't take off Arbelest which imo complete ruins build diversity.
I seriously don't get what Bungie is smoking trying to be so insistent on monochromatic builds when there's tons of situations most especially in higher end PVE content where having variety and agency is the biggest difference of doing a "big hero moment very watchable recovery" if you're the last guy alive with available rezzes and pulling your pud trying to whittle down a mismatched energy shield and kill an unstop with no anti mod on.
That's not to say that running monochromatic loadouts and not having everyone sorted for champions and shields equals some insta disaster that is impossible to do, but it saves a hell of a lot of frustration when you have your bases properly covered.
Bungie delivered us the exact same pitfall early Armor 2.0 had with having to horde variety of armor due to affinity restrictions by not having universal orb gen mods. Even if it's a cheaper change price to change elemental affinity ,it's still an annoyance factor.
Also the things we are forced to use are simply bad and frustrating to get working, overload smg,unstop sidearm
We really need to talk about how the only reason to run Master raids is for triumphs. Doing harder content should be rewarded with actual, meaningful rewards, not a title that you'll equip for one season, then unequip next season when a new title comes out. In D1, we did Hard mode raids for weapons that were notably better than their Normal mode counterparts, and those weapons dropped throughout the entire raid. Let's go back to that system.
And then everyone complains about "gatekeeping" rewards, and how unfair it the system is, that they have "no chance" in PvP/Trials because they don't wanna do hard content. This. is. why. we. can't. have. nice. things. It's sad.
Remember how everyone used to complain that adept weapons were "locked" behind flawless, and gave people an "unfair advantage"? When in reality the differences between adept and regular weapons were(are) so tiny, it was pretty much just for cosmetics. (Only meaningful thing is Adept big ones really)
Now ALL OF A SUDDEN, everyone wants adept weapons buffed because they realize how pointless they are compared to crafted weapons, basically admitting that they were not that meaningful in the first place. And it's not just because crafted weapons get enhanced perks.
@@kilianbalter yeah those people will complain no matter what cuz they dont have the thing others have even tho they dont put on the effort to get them. Bungie only catter to those crybabys and it shows on how d2 is shit. Difficulty is no where to be seen and we get showered with loot thus making loot meaningless. Remember when destiny 2 was a good looter shooter? I dont.
@@troudbalos333 We do have difficulty, in the form of buggy Champions, Match Game, and poorly tuned damage increases that makes stuff like GM Lightblade painful
And normal mode save for Wrath of the Machine was obsolete once hard mode came out
Apparently DMG has said on Twitter that VoG next season will be the same as Vow is, the two will not have their differences in the future. I'm not on Twitter that much, so I missed it, apologies.
Also, I misremembered that Bungie started with hard mode and then ripped things out for normal, not the other way around. Think I was thinking of something else. But, the point still stands: they didn't like doing that.
Also cool, I never actually pinned this comment, so all good.
I don’t see what they didn’t like about it, as doing it that way, from a player perspective, was exponentially more fun and made D1 hardmode bring something new. Their current philosophy is ass backwards and having to suck it up and bite the pillow…sucks.
I don’t get why they’re so stingy with the raid adept weapons (I.E. they only drop from the challenge on master instead of just dropping everywhere instead of normal weapons) when they’re allow you to grind GMs over and over for a bunch of adepts or now in trials once you go flawless as long as you have seven wins you can keep getting adepts. Adept weapons drop frequently from their other sources but not from raids which seems weird to me. It just encourages spoil farming and getting a boss checkpoint instead of running the actual raid
Are they keeping the adept weapons after 7 wins in trials once you’ve gone flawless now? I thought it was one week only?
@@SsoxHp the bug beforehand allowed anyone who had ever gone flawless to grab the passage of confidence and get the loot the entire weekend. The new system allows people to grind flawless pool for that loot.
Basically you now have to go flawless that weekend and deal with flawless queue, but the same system exists.
@@solkvist8668 ah I’m with you, thank you. I went flawless the week before last but had no wifi this weekend so missed out the easier chance where I can just vibe in freelance 😂 oh well, back too it next week it is
The recent Trials Adept changes makes me think they have something in the pipeline for their plans with raid Adept weapons or at least how they're obtained
God I hate checkpoint farming. I like running the whole raid, beginning to end, and nothing spoils the momentum than a bunch of goddamn character swapping and wiping to get checkpoints. And all the groups I normally run with ALL do it.
One problem with the "people pee their pants when going in with 1578 power" is, when you don't have a group that you raid with and have to find randoms, there's a bit of felt pressure to be on level
i had both, incredibly chill fireteams that didn't care when i was 5-10 levels below and multiple fireteams that instantly booted me when seeing i was 1-5 levels below recommended
It's the whole "bring gjallahorn, sleeper, vex and your grandma" thing
I know one person that plays destiny and can't pull 2-3 extra people into the fireteam at a moments notice when someone leaves, we literally had to stop a vog clear before because 2 people tilted and left and nobody joined for 15+ minutes and the fireteam disbanded bit by bit
I get that people like datto, who have raid teams and stuff, want to be heard, but i struggle to belive that the average, or even "more committed than average"-player has a group of 5+ people that are ready to raid most of the time
Mind you it's still important to have this kind of analysis from top-level players to evolve the game further
I love how I always watch these videos in full anyway, knowing very well that I am not at all the guy who is attempting this stuff. It's just entertaining to listen to Datto talk about anything lol
Here here!
Most based reply I have seen yet.
@@contra8053 gigachan reply. chiseled chin neck ahhh
After this video... my interest remains low to middling for Master Vow. As for "increasing difficulty," I really enjoy increased combat challenge. I really don't like Champions. So contest appeals to me a lot more than Champions.
No way they are going to have ONLY contest mode. Most likely you will be locked at -20 light or more.
@@GeoGyf I prefer contest instead of champions
As a corrective measure simp, I am glad to see it getting the recognition it deserves. DPS is bad but with the abundance of heavy, and it's reserved, it's a very strong primary weapon
3rd best void MG
I love it. Use it for gm’s all the time. It was in my load out for Day 1 vow.
Been maining Corrective since I dont have a great Commemoration, and it fuckin slaps for ad clear with volatile rounds
Edit: Ill probably be maining it in Exhibition now tbh
I think what they could do to help the Adept vs Craftable method is to fuse both into one.
Obtaining the Adept weapon unlocks an option to turn your Craftable version into an Adept with the ability to slot Adept mods and have double perk slots to choose from.
It makes it where the systems won't cannibalize each other and allows you to get the absolute best version of said weapon without needing to consider holding onto multiple.
You conquered the Master challenges of the Raid, you grinded out the Deepsights and unlocked the Craftables, you leveled up your weapon manually- so you should have the best one available.
People that cant or wont do the raid are getting butthurt about the idea of crafted adept weapons with enhanced perks and and adept mods
I don't mind increasing exclusively combat difficulty since combat is intrinsically tied to the mechanics USUALLY. What bugs me is how Bungie's idea of "increased combat difficulty" seems to be "bro make something a champion" and "just throw on match game lmao". It's not a test of skill, it's a godamned inconvenience, it chokes buildcrafting (and thus skill expression, which should be BETTER in high-end content), and I'm frankly sick of it.
Legend Mode Witch Queen was the best difficulty spike this game's ever had, and it seems clear from Master VotD that it is the best it will ever have for the forseeable future. More enemy spawns between encounters, higher quantities of enemies, and faster/more aggressive enemies. All good ways to increase difficulty that don't involve forcing me to micromanage my entire godamned raid team's loadout. You want to make champions useful in raids? Make them exploration filler. Stick a few champs in the many side rooms and corners Vow has, and give me a chest or even just some spoils for taking the time to beat them. Make people that want the extra rewards put in actual effort and skill to learn the WHOLE raid environment, not just blurs of platforming between encounters.
The good takeaway from this is that Bungie now knows that WQ Legendary is what they're looking for in terms of difficult but fair and not annoying. It was universally praised.
So I hope Bungie took the message and started drafting and modeling new "hard" content after it. It won't come fast, development takes time...but I hope that by Season 19, they'll either get rid of champions entirely or replace them with Lucent Hive like units.
Exploration rewards is a fantastic idea. That's basically how Champions work on the moon which is when they were first introduced. Bungie is devolving again
Chokes buildcrafting? It encourages it. Datto made a whole new build with a glaive of all things. With no champions it doesn't matter what you equip at all so why even bother with buildcrafting? Unless buildcrafting = equipping the meta in your eyes.
@@Gainersy match game + champions means everyone MUST equip a handcannon, pulse or glaive to deal with an unstoppable champ (for example) and the match game makes it even more restrictive on which of those handcannons or pulses you can even use. It does not promote build crafting, it tunnels everyone to the same stuff worse than the meta does because at least then people have the choice of experimentation.
@@Gainersy How is equipping 1-2 mods and 1-2 specific weapon types to handle a certain enemy type "build-crafting"? That generally is used to refer to the loadout that you're using, the combination of subclass + stat spread + Exotics + weapons + mods. You can absolutely adapt or make builds that counter Champions, but clearly you can't always use what you *prefer* against all Champion spreads because e.g. you wanna use an SMG but there's no Overloads, or Match Game discourages using the specific Pulse that feels the best to you.
I feel like champions in the Caretaker encounter is a nice thing for the soul purpose of giving ammo on Aeon finishers
So your soul drops ammo?
Yeah, although annoying at first once you figure out how to kill them quickly it's incredibly rewarding with the amount of heavy/special you're producing with aeon/lucent finishers. Contraverse allowed me to have my grenade every overload spawn, and it took 2 reeds shots and a finisher to kill refunding me the heavy cost + some more.
For this season only tho
@@Mardoxx7 Aeon Cult gloves work regardless of season, my brother in Christ
@@jacobkern2060 I totally forgot about those. Forgive me, my brother in Traveler
How about more good exotics like Arbalest having champion mods built in. Would relieve some of the “ughhhh” factor with champions
16:43 I actually wouldn't have laughed as hard as I did were it not for "laugh it up" popping up on screen
Most people aren't even asking for new mechanics, they're just asking for wq campaign, or day one type difficulty instead of just champion mode
I really wish Bungie would go back to minor changes to encounters for harder difficulties, rather than sticking with the “let’s just throw some champions in” theme they’ve been going with recently. Either that, or just don’t bother with the harder difficulties when there feels like so little reason to complete them.
Yeah, with overloads being bs since there inception. Its getting annoying
Master mode is so fucking underwhelming, exact same as the challenges, bungie could've done literally ANYTHING ELSE that might've been slightly interesting but instead they chose 'here's rhulk but theres 2 champions and you deal 20% less and take 20% more damage hope you enjoy this new content x' even something as small as killing the wizards in caretaker or something is better than absolutely no effort
My issue with master raids is about leveling in general. I've been playing Destiny since d1 launch, and I'm so burnt out on grind. I don't want grind artifact value so I can play endgame content for a month or two before having to regain that light at the beginning of the next season. At this point, day 1 raids and dungeons are the only thing that excites me in D2. This issue is less with Master raids themselves, and more with core issues in D2 piling up.
This raid is fine because 1580 is reasonable, but why can I play old master content at the end of a season but not the 1st several weeks of the next? New content being drip fed throughout a season is fine, but I was high enough level for GMs and old endgame content last season, so why does old content need to be drip fed.
playing a 1350 raid at 1340 is the exact same as a 1550 raid at 1540, power level is arbitrary and isn't real. Game would be a lot better if they just set power levels to the recommended for the entire raid. It's really annoying too when you start playing a new season or expansion and they literally just throw 200 light levels at you for nothing. Like ya cool, I didn't just spend the last month of the season slow grinding up to the soft cap thanks to the horrible RNG system that comes with "Prime" and "Powerful" engrams.
Same. Been playing D1 since launch and getting really tired of the arbitrary power grind. My buddies want me to get up to 1575 so I can do GMs but I hate Champions and just don't feel like grinding the same activities for pinnacle gear that may or may not help me depending on which slot it drops for. Instead of Power they just need to have 3 difficulty levels for all content in the game Normal, Heoric and Legend. The power behind-the-scenes can just scale relative to those 3 difficulties.
Seeing as we're all pissed off by the same point. The stupid artificial Light Level power grind. Can I throw one more thing in that really grinds my gears?
GM's and Master difficulty raids are one thing... and the resetting of the power levels each season another...
But why is it that _that 30th Anniversary bundle_ dungeon, Master GoA, that I additionally payed for, is at 1590? That's like fucking renting it every season if I'm only gonna be able to comfortably do it at the back-end of each season.
I understand that they don't want everyone to _rush_ all of the content immediately, and they're using -cheap ways- the _now_ market standard way of retaining customers, timegating and dripfeeding, but there has to be a better way than to force the slower, lower light level players to wait until the last weeks of the season to get to see the content... before they're reset again at the start of the next season. I'm high enough for the content, but that's besides the point, the point is why'd the game think I wasn't high enough until the 200th hour dropped, despite me wearing the exact same fucking masterworked gear as I did for the very 1st hour.
Time to stop playing D2 then, only playing when a new raid/dungeon shows up
@@GeoGyf that's pretty much how i play the game now
The adept weapons shouldn’t even be a thing. I’ve seen people say that a memento that converts your weapon into an adept for only vow weapons would work and i think that should be the solution. You still have to work for it, it doesn’t undermine the normal raid weapons, and it makes the memento not only cosmetic. and since Adepts are technically a separate weapon from the normal ones, all the memento has to do is allow you to slot adept mods on. Crafted weapons already get a stat boost at level 20 which is identical, or if not identical, extremely close to the stat boost of a master worked adept weapon.
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not insane for just thinking “remove adept weapons from the game” and lean into crafting. It’s great bad luck protection. What you do with master raid loot then, is either just drop randomly with enhanced perks to save Alloy and Element if you’re lucky, or experiment more with armor. Maybe have set bonuses become a thing that can be utilized outside the raid. Or Pre socketed 0 energy cost armor with additional slots. Armor has more room for experimenting. Really hoping bungie leans into crafting as having a pathway to the roll or rolls I want is there whenever I put in the time for it.
I like the idea of harder content rewards better stuff the only issue I have with it is the current set of adept weapons are so minute in difference to the normal counter part it makes them boardline pointless
I’m glad they added it but I have literally 0 desire to do master Vow. I’ve accepted that hard modes are never getting new mechanics like they did in Destiny 1, but due to that fact I will never even bother setting foot in them unless all my friends really really want to do it.
I do miss having just that little extra difficulty from hard mode mechanics. Made playing between normal and hard mode feel more separate and fresh
I always look forward to doing the master raids and GM nightfalls every season. The problem I have is the being time gated on top of having to do the same level grind every season just to be able to enter it. I would it rather just be contest so it cuts out the leveling part and I can just do the raid since I’ll be under light in the first place when it comes out.
No way the let the players get a couple of god rolls that easy, without playing/engaging/spend time with the game.
With contest mode, the hackers will have a field day, they'll just disregard any light requirement and get free god rolls.
The hackers were a menace in Trials until the light requirements were introduced.
@@GeoGyf Uh, no. Hackers were a menace until anti-cheat was properly implemented. Give me an example of people who hack in PvE nowadays lol.
@@daedalus6433 In pve? Its the easiest. I even got a message with their prices just yesterday.
Idk why people would pay for these and not get the weapons legit but w/e.
Their prices are:
Normal Vow 19$, GM 22$ (probably arms dealer), Trials Flawless 39$.
Mythoclast 99$, C.Obligation 119$.
And for this week, S.Neuroma Adept 34$, Timelost C.Measure 27$.
For PvP they toggle their cheats on (when they lose) and off. Few are the idiots who leave them 24/7 and have abnormal stats like 95% handcannon headshot accuracy.
@@GeoGyf So hacker = paid carries to you? What?
@@daedalus6433 oh its ok bro, i'm sure the hackers only stick in Crucible & Trials.. /s
Also both hackers & paid carries are blatant TOS violations and are subject to life bans, players that do both, well there isnt a higher punishment/penalty for then
In D1, I did every hard mode raid at least once a week. In D2, I have done exactly zero master mode raids. I like the mechanical difficulty increase over the combat increase. But more importantly, there's just not a good enough motive to get my team to actually want to put the effort in for a master mode. The combat difficulty increase is a bit too much for some of my players, and while I could easily just go LFG for master mode, I don't like to do that to my guys. I miss D1's take on hard mode raids, is really what I am saying.
Agreed, I don’t mind raids being harder but hard mode VOG was annoying as hell. Max gear score & plus 15 on the artifact getting one shot was not fun to make me ever want to do it again.
After playing FFXIV for about a year now I really wish bungie would design raids hard mode first. High tier raiding is so much fun in that game and the fight building on existing mechanics so cool. I played Vow for a few weeks on release because new content, but I'm already so bored and burnt out with it. I'd like the vow seal but it just seems like too much of a pain in the ass for me to actually play for
Master is not a replacement for the "hard" raid in D1. The "hard" raids in D1 weren't actually difficult, normal mode VoG in D2 is more mechanically challenging than D1's "hard" mode of the same raid. Master didn't replace "hard" mode, they just removed the easy mode.
Ok, I agree to an extent.
I thoroughly enjoyed D1 raids (wrath, like it is for many, is one of my favourite raids), however I don’t think using D1 hard mode as a shining example of what hard mode should be (or at least *an* example). D1 normal vs. hard mode faces the same issues as D2 normal vs. master.
Let’s be real. In D1, once you did the normal mode of a raid, that was basically the only time you Needed to run it to unlock hard mode with the only exception of if you wanted shaders or armor (or in KFs case, the white versions of the raid weapons). If memory serves me right, the differences of normal vs hard mode armor and weapons (especially in wrath) were specifically cosmetic. In KF, the only difference between weapons was the fact that NM was white, HM was white and could potentially be exotic adepts. The normal mode wrath armor mods were identical to the hard mode armor outside of ornament slots (and you could even get NM weapons in HM)!
D1 hard modes also had bonus mechanics that considerably boosted player morale and players opinions on the encounters and hard mode as a whole, adding an extra layer or element of difficulty. But, as Datto stated in the video, Bungie does not want to do this anymore.
In D2, what purpose do you have to run master mode raids once you get the triumph seal and any optional adept weapon you want? In D1, what purpose did you need to run normal mode raids once you had already beaten them once to unlock hard mode outside of any cosmetics?
Yes, one of the main topics covered here in Datto’s video was incentive to run master. But, D1 normal/hard faces similar issues as D2 normal/master (only in reverse) except there is no obligation or requirement demanding anybody to run master unless the player wants to-the player, in question, is someone interesting in grinding the most endgame of endgame level content, a very minor crowd. Would I like to run master over normal with more incentive? Yes, absolutely. But I don’t want to gloss over the fact that one raid difficulty mode in both D1 and D2 were HEAVILY prioritized by the fanbase over the other.
they were MUCH more rewarding too. Adept weapons on challenge and dope ass ornaments
I want a GM raid and every chest is a straight up loot explosion! Ascendant shards, artifice armor, adept weapons... the whole 9 yards! Though each encounter at GM lvl and just cracked tf out
I’ve always wondered what a GM level raid would be like. I’d wait for them to adjust what higher level content is first before they tackle that type of shit.
If I need Overload to stun Atheon for damage I’m going to commit a hate crime.
I would love a GM style raid
@@MrTJCM6 nahh bro atheon is all 3 champs at once and all burns. hahah
@@townsennelson2043 and for your troubles you’ll get a blue and an enhancement prism 😂
@@MrTJCM6 some planetary materials
IMO it was very poor game design for the relics to not break shields or be able to stun champions. Make the beam break solar, make the taken orb break void (it does) and make the shield break arc. Having half your team for most of the team unable to break shields or stun champions when match game and champs were added was beyond frustrating. It feels lazy and not play tested by bungie at all.
"But then people would not be forced to run double primary!" - Bungie, probably
Great idea
@@UMADBRO64 I hate overload champs being stunned in some areas of the raid is terrible. Other than that, it's fine. I'm happy with harder content raids
@@UMADBRO64 okay.....you win. The raid so hard to do. I'll continue to b'tch about it 🤨👍
I think the commentary on difficulty this time is a little different than what you laid out though; a lot of people are just frustrated that Bungie's only way to ramp up difficulty seems to be to just toss a shitload of champions into the mix. It's just getting old, and forcing players into very rigid loadouts isn't compelling enough of a difficulty spike to simply apply to every activity in the game. Doesn't mean there isn't a place for it, but seeing it yet again for Master VOTD just seems lazy in most people's opinions, ESPECIALLY after the Legendary campaign did a great job of showing how champoins aren't necessary for challenging gameplay. I disagree that regular Vow is at the same level as the Legend campaign; maybe it's supposed to be but in my experience the combat difficulty is piss easy in comparison. At the very least content mode represents a pathway to increase raid difficulty without again relying on the crutch of champions. I think that's what most people are pointing out now. And frankly Adept weapon are immediately obsolete unless you're just unnecessarily desperate for Adept Big Ones, which makes so little difference in the grand scheme of things that I don't know what the point would be.
When you are putting in relics for 3rd encounter, the one that resets the timer is the laser pointer. All other relic holders can put in their relic and if you have enough time, they can wait 30 seconds before putting in laser pointer for the debuff that prevents the pickup of another relic to wear off so the same people can pick up the same relics. Obviously you don't need to do this but it can be helpful for LFG or helping a friend who is new or not confident so that they don't have to hold a relic. I only mention this because I noticed everyone deposit their relics at the same time. All you have to do is make sure the final person to put in a relic is the laser because that is what resets time.
5:55 I have been using the glaive and machine gun for gauntlet since vow came out and the combo feels really nice plus is master mode it just fits perfectly with the shields and champs.
I don’t think you’re in the minority in enjoying harder content.
But there’s a difference in hard content that is fun/engaging to do, and content that is hard because if champions and making everything hit harder. I’ve never once had fun fighting champions. Bungie just needs to stop using the laziest methods of making things harder.
Should’ve stuck with D1 and just added more mechanics. Or just make it so you wipe if you don’t do the challenge in every encounter or something. Would be way more fun.
that's what I'm saying why didn't they just make it like challenge mode
bungie is stubborn to accept this, they ‘didn’t like’ how fun actual difficulty is, so they went with the worst version of it in classic fashion
GM nightfalls were originally meant to be ‘One and Done’ and ‘watchable’
What’s watchable
You make a big deal out of LMG + glaive in exhibition, but honestly I don't get what everyone's issue is with LMGs... They're amazing for ad clear, *especially* adept corrective, *especially especially* with volatile rounds being the new hotness. And exhibition is almost all ad clear. Of *course* it's good there!
The issue is that they got a pretty sizable damage nerf back when Thunderlord was the only MG, because of a knee-jerk reaction to seeing it one-phase Riven while in an autoloading Well.. It's been partially reverted since then, but it's still not as good as it used to be for adds or bosses.
Add Clear is fantastic on LMGs, But GLs & Rockets require one shot to clear out what a whole lmg mag would require. Plus losing your heavy for Add Clear basically limits how much DPS you could put down on a Boss due to their damage outputs being on par with special weapons
Yeah the minute I knew how packed Exhibition was on Day 1 raid and that there wasn't much need for boss dps weapons, I put on Recombination+Rampage Comemmoration with witherhoard and Funnelweb and went nuts.
No regrets
13:26 Watching you dismantle a 4TTC + Bait and Switch Adept Cataclysmic hurt.
16:40 was pretty funny, I did laugh a good amount. Nice job.
I still wonder if Adepts not dropping from encounters is a bug especially since the TWAB last week said "Each encounter completed also has the chance to drop an Adept version of a given weapon for the raid." Definitely feels weird not having Adepts drop, especially since they're not tied to challenges and triumphs like VoG.
The prerequisite to that statement is "when completing challenges". So adepts are only meant to drop from challenges.
In terms of Master VoG compared to Master Vow, next season Master VoG and GoA will be lowered to 30+ the powerful cap. That was mentioned in the 14Apr22 TWAB. Nothing about the extra VoG modifier
That was not in the TWAB.
No, it was in dmg's tweet
30+ on the artifact is entirely too high for anything in this game. It just punishes people who don't have as much time to play. I'm plenty skilled enough for master raids, as I did it before. That being said, I don't have the time to grind +30, just for it to reset 1 or 2 months later and grind it all again. It's stupid.
@@FlashesSoccer011 It’s +30 on the powerful cap, not pinnacle cap. It would basically be the equivalent of master GoA and VoG being lowered to 1580 this season, like master VoD.
@@mytho9110 yeah I know. I'm saying in previous seasons it was +30 on the pinnacle cap for master content. I don't agree with that. +20 isn't too bad. I'd still just prefer content mode.
Thinking about it now, i feel like getting an adept form of a crafted weapon should allow you to have a perk choice for the 3 and/or 4th slot. That'd make the adept and crafted weapons synergize at least somewhat, instead of being directly at odds with each other.
Also if master vow had, like, a memento tied with it
You mentioned artifice armor in the video. I find it a bit off that the required light level to farm it this season is 1590. Unless im mistaken thats a higher light than the GM nightfall and matches the master raid which are the pinnacle activities this season. Any thoughts?
GMs are 1600 power, but you are capped at 1575, Master Vow is 1580 so it is higher than that but it matches Master VoG at 1590
@@bingusjack it doesn't make any sense.
My guess (hope) is that next season's rotator will normalise Master content to +20 LL
Don't even get me started...
1590 is bullshit for GoA master. My main reasoning is... I just bloody bought the thing as additional content last season, and with that kinda requirement, the only time I'll get to play it is towards the mid to back-end of any given season in future. I just find that really weird, and a really weird decision by Bungie, I mean... I bought content, I didn't rent content for X weeks out of the season. Its not a timeshare in Majorca.
@@zubrhero5270 I never thought of it like that. That is a great point. I've only ever been able to do 1 master run. Strictly because, I don't have the time to grind to +30 while averaging 60 hours a week of work plus other adult responsibilities. Not to mention, even if you I did manage that, it just gets reset in like a month and I have to do it again. The artifact power bonus was one of the worst additions to the game.
Also, the legend campaign didn't have champions and hard caped your level to a lower level so it made you actually use tactics and not just "LEROY JENKINS" your way through the level.
Kinda feels like you’re speaking to a number of different groups with distinct opinions/wants on hard mode raids as if they are a unified group of irrational thinkers. They’re just different people, no?
2:29 love that "ass plane" is a callout
IIRC bungie said this twab would be weapon tuning, so you may be right on your point on bungie elaborating on changing adept loot a day after you post the video
big fan of datto jumping off the rhulk platform like that.
Turns out, the high level add clear encounter is actually the perfect situation for machine guns. They’re meant for high level add clear by doing way more dps than a primary ever could while still having tons of reserves, and they do it WELL.
It would if they actually do damage like they use to. Smgs have a fatser ttk for fuck sake!
@@troudbalos333 Heavy Machine Guns never stopped doing damage, they've actually only been buffed. The only nerf they ever received was from back when they were first reintroduced and were melting bosses like it was nobodies business. Their stated role is strong add clear, and it's what they do indeed excel at. I don't know what worlds you're living in where SMGs have a faster ttk in pve than machine guns. The same damage buffs that are available on SMGs are available on machine guns.
Lubraes Ruin really shines in first and third encounter, ESPECIALLY if you're a hunter, im apart of the group thats cant stand glaives, but throw on suppressing glaive, stylish executioner you cant die as a hunter unless youre making some sort of mistake
Don't worry Datto, I did 'laugh it up'. But only because I missed a Thundercrash AND was the Divinity for my team.
Spamming champions doesn't make it harder. What made the campaign fun was that I could try whatever load out I want, not the number of shots it takes to kill an enemy or how much damage they do
I love how the moment I started laughing at Datto backflipping off the back of Rhulk's damage area the words "laugh it up" appeared on screen
I believe I spotted a glitch from this video, jump to 12:17 and look at Datto's pervading darkness, it goes from 6, to 5, and then he is cleansed. It starts going down as he gets close to that wall. I have heard of a glitch in third room to be able to do this as well. I will test it this weekend when I can play Vow.
Tell Jez to level up. I want to see the master run with the usual suspects. The world deserves it.
It's all good, Datto brought the Jez energy at 16:40 lmao
Also the armor dropped from Master Vow ignores your ghosts armor mod. I had a pair of boots drop with 29 mobility, and 2 recovery, but I was running the ghost mod to get a GUARANTEED 10 recov, but get this, ain’t GUARANTEED after all
Mobility and Recovery are in the same pool, and the mod will not give a spike to a stat in the same pool as the focus.
@@DUKEzors I get it but don’t get it because I just wanted some recovery 💔
@@DUKEzors that isn't how it works at all.
I honestly loved the rise of iron treatment. Ornaments/adept weapons/ challenge but not too bad where it’s a “turn off”. Of course I have yet to join master Vow and I’d like to. But I have yet to touch master VOG since I wasn’t a big VOG player d1 and I don’t have enough time(forgets bounties) to get to pinnacle cap and season power up fast enough.
Yet I loved the rise of iron taken king treatment. I was my absolute favorite thing to run. So yah. More of a Rise of Iron treatment would be my want.
They don't necessarily have to add new mechanics, but they could however add the things like the feature in the Hard campaign which caused the acolytes to drop a sun spot. Things like that would be cool and doesn't sound very hard to add.
They did say a tab or 2 ago now, that Master VoG will be brought down next season to be same level as VOW
Maybe it’s just that we had a couple of weaker players but master feels weirdly hard. Like I got conqueror last season and have done fatebreaker and so on, but master vow feels so painful. Ad clear feels like a losing fight on first encounter especially when going for challenge, and caretaker’s overloads are significantly worse. The challenge mode for caretaker will also likely be horrific since it will spawn 18 overload hobgoblins each floor at minimum, which seems brutal to me.
I think champions are moreso the issue than anything else, but I’m surprised that our team has made less progress than we did on day 1 in the same time. It’s just really rough. Not looking forward to the gauntlet, it’s going to be hellish.
What I do know is the rewards for it are extremely forgettable. At least VOG gave fatebringer, whereas master just gives you effectively identical weapons that you cannot craft. Adept weapons should just drop with enhanced perks or at least the ability to craft them. Otherwise they are just harder to earn the adept ones
It's perfectly summed up by the triumph for master mode giving you a sparrow, something that has been completely overshadowed by always on time for 4 years now, vow is a completely uninspired lame ass raid that shows how comfortable bungie is getting based off of first impressions so they dont feel the need to put effort into the game anymore
There's a reason master vow only has 66k total completes it's a useless mode in a raid that's already the last completed.
I was waiting for this. Thank you Sir datto
I get I can go in under leveled into a master raid and that’s cool with me that’s how I prefer it, but as the the light level complaints in general…Honestly for me, it’s just the level grind. And it’s more painful because I used to be that high level player that got on every night for hours and was like alright we’re doing 3 runs of (enter raid here) on hard mode tonight or we’re going flawless on all 3 characters this weekend boys. But I was 16 when destiny 1 came out and now I’m 24 with a full blown life. I want to be THAT player again but I physically cannot fit it into my day or even weekends anymore despite however much I want to. And when I can on the off chance… I couldn’t every other week or weekend so I’m not up to said light level so… I can’t even though I have the time today. It’s painful to have the skill to have all adept weapons in the game in D1 and to go from sitting on top of a block in the Nexus nightfall with icebreaker for hours to get gjhallerhorn (I got it my 3rd week I was lucky af!) to never once having been able to hit the light level requirement to even try a Grandmaster Nightfall in D2 even with a 6 month season (I was 2 light away MAN AHHHHHHHHSOD DISBHXDBJDDJDBH). And that one’s not necessarily Bungies fault but man I wanna bang my head into the wall because of it.
Datto, i haven't heard anyone say this yet but I really would have liked with s17 raid playlist to have difficulty tiers like the nightfalls. say 3 levels, 1 is base, 2 being contest, and 3 being master (but make master have contest modifier on like GMs) and give tiered reward structures as well. slap a master raider seal in the game and lots of ppl will be grinding. oh yeah, and like, bungie, just make adeot weapons craftable. like, this isnt hard..
Master difficulty raids in D1 were the full experience of mechanics and enemies in that raid whereas the normal mode just took out a few of those mechanics and that was great!
Saying they rely on Champions is an understatement.
A master Rulk encounter with no mechanical changes and actually being the easiest encounter is an insult to Rulk they need to apologize!
Not to mention no exotic raid ship, ghost, or sparrow loot like the Master D1 raids would offer with "Everworst" existing making Master difficulty that much more worthless.
Lubrae's Ruin actually goated for Acquisition and Exhibition.
Champions are fine, a special enemy with a special mechanic. I wish there were more. The problem is not champions, the problem is champions are broken. You can hear the stun, you can read the stun, champion is not stuned. And Overload deserve an special improvement. Is stasis interaction with their stun intentional? Because that is bad. Auto rifle and smg stunning take too long, why? With a bow you can handle an overload, it will never regen, with AR/SMG it doesnt matter if you keep shooting it will regen. Is the only thing we are supposed to use Divinity?
Maybe 3 difficulty tiers:
Normal: The standard raid experience and loot drops
Contest Equivalent: Tough but not too tough with increased spoil drops and chances at high-stat armor/upgrade mats. Maybe super rare adept drops? Higher exotic drop chance
Master: Same as it is now except no more exclusive highstat armor drops. Double it up with armor and weapons dropping from each encounter, with a guaranteed raid exotic for first completion.
I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on general discussion of champions.
On the adept vs crafted argument, the one challenge clear I've done this week I got the gl, which I then spent all of my spoils on getting a good roll of because I haven't gotten a single red one to drop from all of my clears even with the red weapon challenges. Kind of a niche situation, but now that I got a good adept roll, I don't even care if I craft one at all. It's a per person argument for every single weapon in the raid.
I don't personally think you need to be able to craft adept weapons, but that's partly coming from the fact that I think most of the enhanced perks are worthless anyways
so just to say I'm really glad to see Datto also sometimes kills himself with his own rockets during crowded dps phases
I personally like Contest more than the Master Raids solely because I absolutely fucking hate champions. Especially the Taken Overloads are fucking stupid to deal with, instantly rapid firering their balls at you while you try to stun them (if they don't glitch out and regen through your SMG) and if you don't melt them they almost instantly heal themselves. I loved the contest combat difficulty with less champions though. It was fun fighting hard adds that don't force you into certain weapons/subclasses. I don't know but contest was way more enjoyable for me even though I spent a little over 13 hours at Rhulk.
Ngl, I knew that we weren't gonna be getting any enhanced perks on the weapon. The only change that I thought was really possible was that Adept versions of the raid weapons might have an enhanced foundry perk or something.
I remember when exotic adepts were a thing. If I recall correctly they weren't that sought out for 2 reasons.
1) All they did was use an exotic slot to add an element to the gun.
2) Destiny 2 was on the horizon, so grinding for the guns to "lose" them later feels redundant.
But what if they brought exotic adepts back with an extra column of perks and as well as a different element? To me that creates a functional trade-off that could make getting both the adept and non-adept guns worth it.
I don't have much of an issue with match game. I don't have much of an issue with champs. I DO have an issue when they're together.
Btw... the one and done thing was For GM
For the rest of the video
- We need a champion rework
- What about mechanic based modifiers? Modifiers that add mechanics to the game and can be utilized on multiple types of content? Remember the D2Y1 Nighfall strikes? Those timed oracle mechanics? Stuff like that, and use THOSE for raids and maybe even GMs and Master content
Just an idea
Artifice Armor, Raid Mementos, Adept Weapons for crafting or drops with enhanced perks, Raid Armor Ornaments....they could add so much stuff so people would want to run master mode for more than the title
Well now I'm pissed. I didn't realize the weapons were adept at the end and left my first master clear. Now I gotta go back to get that deliverance or submission
It would be cool personally if master or hard mode has all challenges activated. And if challenges were thought out well from the start it could somewhat replace the old hard mode extra mechanics.
Great idea but when they make challenges like kill all champions at once, seems very unlikely
Hive Lightbearers are champions done right. they provide a danger when you allow them to roam free and are hard-ish to kill, but they dont require you to run certain weapons
this was the sanest take on the adept weapons ive seen from a youtuber so far
The “bungie said they wanted them to be one and done” thought was GM nightfalls before adept weapons existed.
I saw someone suggest that Master Raid should have a way to provide a specific Master Raid memento that could be slotted into the raid weapons to provide them with an Adept mod slot. I don't know whether mementos can necessarily support that kind of interaction with a weapon (currently seems like it's weapon title, kill tracker, shader) but I think that's something which could be a kind of tangible reward from master raid rather than 2 perk rolls and some high stat armour.
dont worry nobody saw you tag a teammate with that lasting impression rocket on caretaker
It’s my opinion that for what you would have to go through to potentially create an adept variant of a craftable weapon, the increase of the adept mod in addition to enhanced perks would make it something painstaking, but worthwhile, to pursue, without being incredibly overbearing to metas.
If they’re going to keep champions then they should adjust the champion stunning methods by doing “Overload Kinetic Weapons" or "Unstoppable Energy Weapons" or "Anti Barrier Heavy Weapons" and adjust them to be either 2-4 energy slots to give more freedom to build crafting.
we should also get rid of the Match game feature and use the tougher enemy health from legendary campaign as the model going forward. Being told I can only use a Glaive, Hand Cannon and Pulse rifle to stun unstoppables is ridiculous.
Disclaimer! Master Vow of the Disciple’s light level was increased to 1590 as of the lastest hotfix. It is now the same light level as Master VOG
I'm more annoyed that Bungie keep on adding champions to the most fun content, especially overloads. I'd be happier if stunning them wasnt such a ballache - inconsistent mods, having to use Div or Secants, ect ect
Lower master VoG’s difficulty to match Vow’s. Add armor ornaments to master to increase the rewards
I agree why is there no Master Raid armor?
In regards to "maybe not as many people as I think actually want to run Contest post-race", I direct your attention to the fact Bungie still puts Guided Games in
So I'm totally cool with combat being what gets harder, but I do want to push back slightly on the "they don't like coming up with extra mechanics for master difficulty" argument. They already do come up with extra mechanics for extra difficulty in the form of the weekly challenge and those challenge triumphs. Why not just make it so one of those sets is mandatory for completion on master?
As for combat, I'm totally down with combat being harder, even if that's the only thing getting harder. Champions and shield types are not inherently adding difficulty, they are adding loadout requirements. Sometimes that means making meta tools more obsolete, which can make things more difficult because now you have to use worse gear. Most of the time, it's just annoying, like when you had the purple flavor gun already on your character but now you have to go into your vault and find a worse orange flavor gun.
Bungie was able to introduce lucent moths and lightbearer hive, which actually do add to the difficulty of certain GMs and all other content without being a loadout gate. Give us more of that, not more match game and champions
I think the mods should be permanent and not seasonal, give every weapon a mod for each type and you can choose what weapon does what. That way you can go off season with a HC with Overload or a Bow with Unstop or an Smg with Barrier. Also that way it frees space on the artifact for more "creative" mods that could benefit that season.
This was my thinking as well, though I don't think it's the end solution. It would be a good change in the mean time while we bungie figures out what they want to do with champions
He was using a Glaive after ripping Jen … I love it
The problem about Champions in master raids is this: To kill a champion you stun It then kill It, sometimes you Hold back to make sure you strike at the right time.
In VoG all champions were supporting the main mechanics, so you could ignore them if you had a different strat.
In VOTD you CANNOT ignore them. They made them part of the mechanics themselves. And we are talking about one of them being known as one of the most annoying and Broken of the champion types, in one of the most annoying and Damage Broken races of Destiny.
Overload chieftain does What a shield champion and a overload captain does himself. It goes immune by a tótem, nullifying your attempts to stun them
I imagine Dead Messenger might become a bit popular for Master raids and GM nightfalls due to it being essentially a Hard Light GL
"The Glaive" take center stage in 2 of these encounters for me. Lubraes with graverobber and swashbuckler rips and tears. Highly recommend it.
Did they fix those to actually proc off glaive melee kills?
Make Hard Mode include Contest Mode Node on the destination screen to please both overlevelers & the rest of the player base
Have Adept Weapons just drop with the enhanced perks instead of the base version. As we all discovered the Enhanced Perks do mostly nothing outside of Slight Duration Increases & slight stat bumps...Which Adept Guns already do half of.
Also Weapon Restrictions via Champions is stupid as hell & I honestly believe the Mods should instead be Intrinsic to the Ammo Type so we still have slight restrictions on how we should set up our loadouts but still have freedom of choice on what to use
Anti Barrier Kinetics
Anti Overload Specials
Anti Unstoppable Heavys
I actually think the 1580 power level compared to VoG's 1590 is great, because while I do be playing destiny 2 I also don't like having to grind until like, +21 on my artifact for some groups who are stingy about power levels when I just need +15 for gm nightfalls
Agreed 100% but imo they should have kept the master ad modifier
Vow being a more mechanic-heavy raid compared to Vog could be why it's only at 1580. Half of Vog is ad clear so higher LL requirements make sense...
....is what I wish happened. Truthfully Bungie probably wanted to experiment or were pussyfooting the difficulty again.
Honestly I'm just not impressed overall. Loot is one thing. But at least Master VOG was, to me, memorable. Underlight combat or onpar with some modifiers is the way to go imo.
There are 3 main issues that block me from even wanting to partake in these high end content: champions, match-game/similar extra shield type modifiers and leveling. These 3 stack up, it doesn't matter the reward, I'm not putting up with that.
My problem is there's currently no incentive to go after Raid Adept weapons unless you play PvP, as the only good Adept mods currently are either Icarus, Range, Stability, Handling, or Big Ones. Combine that with the fact Enhanced perks exist solely on crafted weapons, with an example being Forbearance: The Meta Roll is something like Ambitious Assassin + Chain Reaction. Enhanced AA adds reload speed, which is great on a GL without Auto-Loading Holster, and Chain Reaction gives more ammo in reserves, which to an extent is like a small field prep-like bump to the gun. Whereas with the Adept version, its only upside is having Adept Big Ones and 2 extra perks to choose from. Unless a gun is going to have use in PvP, like for example Timelost Fatebringer, its adept counterpart is redundant if there's a crafted version available.
Adept Weapons would be able to match crafted weapons in strength if they rolled with Enhanced Perks instead of the standard versions. That way you can't choose them and you'll need to farm, but it allows players to have a choice in its use. Either get a craftable weapon with a static roll, but you get to pick and choose the perks you get as well as it is evergreen since you can swap the perks on it or have an Adept weapon with 2 perks in each column that are randomly obtained but allow for some flexability for the cost of having to get it randomly rolled with the perks you want. So maybe an Adept Cataclysmic would be better than crafted assuming you get it with something like Fourth Time's the Charm/Surplus + Focused Fury/Bait and Switch. It'd be more flexible, save on vault space, and you get adept mods, but it'll take a while to get that perfect roll not discounting getting something like a Charge Time masterwork or an Enhanced/Ionized Battery in the mag slot. In its current state, Master is just for getting the triumph, maybe getting a cool Adept gun you'll use in PvP, and then getting out.
Datto, maybe I missing something here… why Bungie stopped making raid ornaments a thing. I was hoping it would make a comeback with Master VOG and we will get those ornaments back from D1. That’s another reason to grind master raids. Great vid as usual.
I imagine it was probably due to the community's patience being worn to all hell and a lot of people were pissed when it came to Leviathan and its raid lair ornaments being the new "content" especially when news of Armor changes in Year 2 of D2 were going to happen rendering a lot of things useless. Year 1 D2 was such a shitmess, a lot of good will was exhausted in such a short amount of time.
That all being said I don't think special ornaments awarded for particularly difficult content is a bad thing or should never be considered again, but just judging how Bungie usually tends to keep tabs on stuff from the past and have it influence or not influence particular design decisions is why I think we're yet to see a full dive back into that sort of thing.
Also without sounding too cynical and just more fact of the matter when it comes to business decisions, there's always more money to be made spending time designing armor ornament sets for Eververse than trying to add more than bare minimum for something like a raid activity's armor set.
@@thealldayspecial Age of triumphs is by far one coolest things Bungie did in D1, but I understand what you meant by then trying to get money for Eververse instead doing something that the community would really love, like bring back the VOG ornament. It’s all about the money. I just think they did a lot things right in D1 that they are clearly not doing in D2. Even Leviathan prestige gave us different type of armor with glow. Thank you for the reply.
My 2 biggest gripes about the master mode is lack of incentive, and champions being used as a fix all for endgame content. Champions need a rework, no one that I've played with enjoys being forced into specific weapon types to deal with champs, it defeats the purpose of grinding out all the godrolls that you want. Personally I'm just gonna play master vow for the last 2 triumphs and probably never touch it again. Also, for the love of God, I hope they fix the champion interaction between stasis turrets and stunning.
I mean even a different armor set for hard mode would be enough to make me run it until I have a full set. Like where’s the hard mode armor from d1? And challenge mode perchance granting ornaments for them like back in rise of iron. That shit was so dope
My only question (because I wasn't around for Master VoG) is wondering whether or not you can spend spoils on an Adept weapon upon a Normal VotD clear.
The thing that really bothers me about the common argument for keeping Contest a Day 1 Only experience - "The exclusivity and the unknown is what makes the experience worthwhile" - is that literally no other MMO on the market does it this way.
I think to something like Ultima Weapons in FFXIV - Ultimate Raids are accessible *forever* once they're in the game. Every mechanic is known by every person who attempts them after Day 1. Everyone who clears the Ultimate Raid gets a fancy new weapon skin to use for their classes' main weapon; doesn't matter if you cleared it on Day 1 or Day 1,634. They're still signs of prestige, because only a small percentage of the player base even attempts Ultimates, and smaller still actually manage a clear.
The last time I looked at the numbers, roughly 11% of the Destiny community has *ever* raided, whether that be getting one clear of Levi at launch and never touching raids again or getting 3 clears every week on every raid.
Even if contest mode were accessible for the entire lifespan of the raid and it gave the same emblem regardless of when you cleared it, it would *still* be a mark of prestige because only a fraction of a fraction of the raiding player base would manage to clear it. Additionally, not only would this would open up the opportunity for people who aren't able to get weekends off of work (service workers, healthcare workers, etc.) the ability to attempt some of the most memorable and challenging content in the game when it's most convenient for them, but it would also give people who are having to work to rebuild their Day 1 teams due to a loss of members the ability to meaningfully get in practice runs with new teammates before the next Day 1 launches.
In closing - if your Prestige comes at the cost of accessibility, it's shitty prestige.