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Sorry, Matt... You're Missing the Point 😉
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ม.ค. 2023
- The video I'm responding to:
"Why Some Swords Had BLUNT TIPS - DON'T Stick 'Em With The Pointy End!" by @scholagladiatoria
• Why Some Swords Had BL...
Why did some blades have a rounded or even square tip? Is there a good reason for a design that takes away thrusts as a viable option in armed combat? Matt Easton has one explanation, I have a different one. Let's discuss and see what you folks think.
Would be interesting to know what @DaMonStith has to say about the blade shape of the Takouba. Were thrusts commonly taught with this type of sword?
I tried to keep "pointless" puns to a minimum but may not have entirely succeeded. :)
Older videos I'm referencing here:
Stabby Time! - Straight vs. Curved Swords on Ballistic Gel
• Stabby Time! - Straigh...
Plywood shield vs broadsword, katana, axe, kriegsmesser, and war hammer
• Making, testing and re...
Making, testing and repairing a Viking center-grip shield
• Making, testing and re...
The swords I'm showing in this video:
Adorian messer by Landsknecht Emporium
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Gustav messer by Landsknecht Emporium
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Discontinued longsword-katana hybrid by Windlass Steelcrafts
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Outro:
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Although I disagree with his main poi... uh, assertion, I recommend you watch Matt's video on this topic, which is linked in the description. And others as well, he has a wealth of knowledge and experience after all.
Would be interesting to know what Da'Mon Stith has to say about the blade shape of the Takouba. Were thrusts commonly taught with this type of sword?
Wah wah wah but me wanty drama
:(((
Edgelord humor at it best.
I'd say the intro was a bit blunt. 😁
Good you havent lost your edge :P
You made a great point on material considerations, but that leaves me to wonder why so many *Bronze* swords were made with such acutely pointed tips. You *also* made a great point that we shouldn't forget just how much *force* is in a thrust, and so we shouldn't underestimate how good a rounder tip can be at stabbing, even if it's not quite *as* at it as an acute tip.
Also, sometimes puns are just kinda *unavoidable* ; that's why we have the phrase "no pun intended".
Trying to properly quench and temper a blade is difficult enough without having a tip that could get significantly hotter than the rest of the blade. That was probably one of the main reasons the tips had to be reshaped after getting damaged, especially for the cheaper, more mass produced swords. They didn't have the time to reheat and requench it if they noticed the tip was slightly hotter than the rest of the blade when it was quenched. It was for a soldier, not a custom made sword for a rich person. The smith had an order to fill and didn't have the time to spend chasing perfection, or they gave it an honest go and that was the best they could do. Not every sword in use was made by a master smith. Requenching a blade increases the grain size and makes the blade more likely to break, so some smiths don't like requenching without doing several normalising cycles to soften the blade, which would take a couple hours to do properly, at the least.
I can see that, lower skilled craftsmen may have had difficulty heat treating such pieces consistently, and a squared off lump that can be ground to an edge is easier than figuring out how to make sharp tips that don't break off at the first sign of impact.
Its not that hard, at least with a modern forge. The tip gets hotter, but it cools quicker, so when you pull it from the forge, you just wait 2-3 seconds for the tip to cool and match the rest of the blade, before the quench itself.
@@Aerindelprime This is centuries before the invention of consistent forges and reliable pyrometers and so on, not to mention consistent materials though.
You've got a good point with this.
@@Aerindelprime the bigger problem than quenching is probably burning the tip in the first place...
due to the smaller thermal mass and the lack of material on one side the tip will always heat up quicker than the rest of the blade.
sure you can try to control the amount of heat it gets by having it be in a slightly colder part of the forge, but maintaining a fire with such a cooler spot in the right place and then placing the metal there correctly so that the rest of the blade still gets a uniform temperature takes skill which the average swordsmith probably wont have.
as someone who has repaired broken off knife tips in the past i can honestly say that a rounded off tip can still be sharpened to an extremely sharp edge, which can do an adequate job at penetrating a target.
I broke the tip off my bolo knife (only 1mm or so) so rounded it and now not only slices cleaner but penetrates much easier, so much so it’s destroyed the tip of the sheath 😂
Try to go through chain mail with rounded tip of sword... let's say early viking sword. And try same with medieval sword with sharp tip) even padded armour.
For some big hunting knives the tip was deliberately sharpened rounded off. Some texts about knife fighting recommend to modify factory grinds in that way too. The idea behind this is that a rounder tip shape is not as prone to get stuck in bone. This works well against unamoured targets.
Also Matt stated that tip of the takouba was indeed sharpened to an edge.
@@maxlutz3674 all discussion is about swords. Swords are used on battlefield. Enemy mostly has armour.
@@Garbid Some principles are shared by knives and swords.
The statement that enemies mostly had armour may apply to certain theaters and time periods. Pictures of warriors in Africa often show them with shields but not much armour. In Europe swords were used up WW I. There were periods were the troops did not wear armour anymore. Matt´s cavalry saber was designed for use in such scenarios. I am aware that this sabre is not predominantly desgined for thrusting in the first place.
I love it when Skall gets right to the point.
Because at the other end is the pommel.
With pointed arguments, and penetrating thought.
@@leopoldbloom4835 You know which one is required to end him rightly (sorry, I just had to).
Hey now let's temper those puns...
I uhhh love LAMP !
My names Matt so when I got this notification I almost jumped out of my chair.
Thats why I'm here too
My name is Alec and I almost ran outside in search of a Matt to show him this video
Did you miss the point though
False alarm Matt's calm down it's the other matt.
🤓
If you hadn’t made the final observation, I’d have made it myself: I can personally attest that an unsharpened penny-rounded sword tip 2-3mm thick will still go half an inch into your hand without significant effort. I’m looking at the scar as I type this.
So many sword puns.
I love this edgy content.
Take your like and gtfo... Making me laugh like that...
Only for sharp mind.
@@Agonrod2 take your like too, the nerve of this people...
These puns are funny because they have duel meanings
I thought this was a pointed discussion...
I definitely lean towards it being the result of a repair. People didn't have infinite money and access to the best smiths, so when you break your grandad's sword you might end up having to do the repair yourself or get a less than ideal repair for cheap.
Or it is a quick field fix between battles and once you get home you get another blade and that one ends up in the closet.
It seems to me not so easy to distinguish a repaired/modified blade from an original design.
Why not just regrind the tip at a tighter angle to create a new point?
@@Superabound2 because it destroys my theory :)
@@Superabound2 Grinding by hand takes a looot of time, especially when you have to remove that much material.
Think about how much manhours it takes just to even out a chip or a dent, when you think about how much work it takes to maintain that pointy end, a lazy human like me might just opt for a less maintenance profile.
@@mockupguy3577 Usually archeologists can distinguish original vs repair work. It might be harder with the point, but at least repairs to the edge are easily visible because the edge forms an inwards “wave” where the material has been ground away. Many historical swords have slightly wavy blades because of sustained and repaired damage. And no, I’m not talking about flame-blades swords. Different thing entirely.
But the bigger problem with the repair theory is that in most cases it’s ALL (or close to it) swords from a given geographical region and time period having such rounded tips. It’s not just one or two that were repaired, it’s centuries of swords being made in that fashion, and then gradually evolving to have more tapered points.
Also, I can’t imagine smiths would charge all that much for an hour at the grind wheel. People who could afford swords could generally afford to maintain them.
I was taught that certain rounded edges was metallurgy problems. Some Weapon Smiths had difficulty making a strong tip and depending on what era and region of the world this was a common problem.
Wanted to write the same thing. Making sharp tip costs money and blacksmith's time even if general metallurgy is good enough. So, if you don't intend to thrust, why not save on it?
This. Edges, corners, and tips are weak spots. If it's going to break or deform anyway due to your metallurgy, why not just leave it off?
that could also be a factor
That's very plausible. Geography alone would dictate what kind of materials you have access to, and what techniques you would then want to use. Shipping materials over great distances wasn't easy, cheap or fast back then either.
That does not explain the round tip of Landsknecht's Katzbalgers. What would explain them, is there is no need for a pointy tip, as chain mail was out of fashion and those extremely pointy tips are useful against armor, while a broader tip still penetrates a body perfectly well and leavesa a bigger and thus more disabling wound.
Here's my personal hypothesis to why some swords don't have points: They're fragile. They can break. - And once it breaks, your best option is to make a more rounded point out of what's left while removing as little material as possible. - So if you know that you'll end up there anyway, for a weapon meant to see a lot of use that's not a thrust-centric weapon like an estoc, just... make the tip a bit more rounded and stout, because 200 pounds of armor clad bloke leaning against the back end of it is gonna make it poke really hard even if it's not a needle tip.
Or, the same reason why they did a lot of other seemingly random or inexplicable things in the past... it looks good. - Case and point? The Katana's curve. The rapier's elaborate hand guard. Having three narrows fullers on a blade instead of one wide one... They're just things that -look nice-, and people value that. If you think a needle point is ugly? Maybe it'll be fashion to have a more rounded tip. Plus it helps that it's a lot less likely to poke half an inch into a shield or the gaps of a piece of armor then get snapped off by a sudden movement.
i fully aggree with this.
Yep, the repair is what I mentioned in the video too. It's hard to determine with certainty but it seems very likely.
And yeah, aesthetics are most definitely more of a factor than we often expect.
Actually ... the first two cases you cite don't make your point (ha) at all, and the third you cite is debatable. Though slight, the katana's curvature offers substantial benefits for draw/push-cutting, edge alignment, drawing/sheathing, and even makes it easier to extract from the target after an incomplete cut. Though they often have large gaps and extra ornamentation, rapiers' elaborate guards provide excellent protection against cuts, and more protection than you might think from thrusts. Using multiple narrower fullers rather than a single large one will change the blade's impact dynamics, potentially quite noticeably, though I personally doubt that's why it was done (without a modern education in mechanical engineering and access to simulation software, I don't see how smiths could have made intelligent decisions on the matter).
thought bubble
I wonder if having a rounded point on your sword could have made you look more badass.
ie: if eveyone is making and buying pointed swords, then a rounded tip could indicate you had seen combat with that weapon.
appearing to be a veteran can be fashionable, and could offer some advantages, like avoiding a fight through intimidation. If backed with extra props and a suitable wardrobe.
I think Shad (Shadiversity) mentioned in one of his videos, that the curvature of the Katana is the direct result of the sword making process, rather than a deliberate attempt to make it look that way.
A sharp rounded tip does make tip cuts a bit more effective. Tips cuts happen, regardless of whether it's what you're going for, so making the sword a decent cutter all the way to and including the tip does have some advantage.
I was thinking this too. In one iaido style I’ve trained tip cuts were common and seems to make sense in duelling/unarmored combat.
Came down here to mention tip cutting too. That takoba would have been used against people with layers of flowing robe-like garments. A pointed tip might get caught in that, maybe the rounded (and sharp) tip was for easily cutting it's way out. Also, such a tapered sword would obviously have it's point of percussion further down (as noted), so a tip for cutting would extend the range of cutting considerably.
Ya, but you can do that with a pointed sword too: you wouldn't avoid a pointed tip to increase its tip cutting ability!
@Wilfred Darr Just like you can thrust with a sword with a rounded tip. It's just not as good at it. Pretty much all sword design choices (aside from purely aesthetic ones) are compromises...gaining a little here, but losing a bit there. Try chopping through a thick branch using only tip cuts (final 2 inches) from a type XVa longsword and then try the same with a Maciejowski falchion. I know which one I'd rather use. It's not that you can't tip cut with an acute point or that you can't thrust with a rounded one. It's just that each is far better suited to one of those tasks than the other.
Yes, I'm a little annoyed that I forget to mention tip cuts in the video. Definitely more effective with a wide round or square tip (although still limited by the shallow penetration depth).
You may not realize how important you are to society brother. Without people like you....one day we would lose this knowledge and awareness off blades and history. So thank you.
Preach king!
@@zhanglaoshi1971 He's a liver king fan, you don't know the half of it.
Dea Skall, there is a type of bait making plastic that is almost exactly like ballistic gel. Suits the purpose of the channel anyways, because it CHEAP dirt cheap. Ask the guys at Taofladermaos, or watch their videos they mention it I think. It's for moldable plastic worms, so you can melt and reuse it repeatedly.
Skall doesn't even need to go that far since ballistics gel isn't a 1:1 human flesh analogue. It's made to be a consist test medium that kind of sort of simulates human flesh for testing the pentration of bullets and to be able to see the wound channel it leaves. So while it's good for bullets, it's not necessarily that good for swords and other bladed weapons.
Very simple point (hehe) that always came to my mind with swords that have rounded tips is that they simply could've been made to be good at tip cuts. That would even work with tapered swords, as with their balance there may be less force behind a tip cut, but with more speed and manouverability it'd still be a viable way to use them, especially since when cutting, the tip is the part of the blade that travels at the highest speed.
One of the things I have learned while making knives and swords is to be super careful when heating and grinding a sharp tip, a little too long in the forge or grinding too long on a pointy tip and you burn it useless. maybe its just a technique designed to help avoid f-ups when mass producing lots of swords. just a thought.
My friend restored a 600 year old tachi that had been broken and remade into a katana several centuries later. The point had been re-ground, revealing the core of the billet, and the holes in the tang had been repunched for the different hilt style. I suspect the African sword Matt had been talking about was originally a sharp pointed thrusting blade, and was reground with the rounder profile.
wouldnt this essentially also mean that the soft spine is now the very tip of the blade? i would think that this would not be done with a simple regrind. more like reforging the tip and then re hardening it, which would be another can of worms as the curvature in the blade only comes from the differential hardening of the blade so any heat treatment of the blade could mess that up
Holy crap how did he even find a blade that old?
@@johnderat2652 Idk, shit that old has sometimes been found in random temple attics in the Home Islands
This discussion is making me curious: I wonder how many historical examples of swords we have are due to survivorship bias? That is, these swords only survived to today because they weren't used, and the most effective swords of the time were actually used to the point of destruction and thus aren't represented in our sword ecosystem today?
Food for thought. Not saying swords were profoundly different than our modern conception, but trying to extrapolate general points from swords that may not be representative is folly. Do we know the medieval swords we have today are good examples of historical swords that were used in battle?
Well there are writing and literature describing swords and sword making. And many cultures have traditions of burying the dead with their weapons.
Besides it wouldn't make much sense to "use a sword to a point of destruction". You don't want your weapon to break on you mid-battle. preferably you don't want a sword to break at all. The biggest potential failure of a sword would be if it was fragile. The solidness of the sword blade is far more important than any sharpness, edge or tip design.
So there is no way any historical soldier would actually keep using a sword to a point of it breaking, it would very much be in their best interest to preserve and take care of it to prevent that from happening (or getting a new sword made to replace it)
Sounds like another opportunity to kick it over to Tod and do some more "vs armour" testing.
Good point, sorry observation, that the historical swords we examine don't necessarily have the original tip profile that they were made with. But I guess that also extends to stuff like original blade length, hilt and grip etc.
Indeed. Tip breaks off, just round that sucker down.
As much as Skall doesn't like kids, you killed the intro with the Dad jokes.
Props Skall!!
Excellent commentary, Skall! I've seen the inconsistencies in Matt's narrative, but you've summarised them very acutely, if you excuse my expression.
I am reminded of tactical gloves that blow out the fingertips after heavy use, and then others conjecture what the intentional purpose of cut-off fingertips might be. It is a presumption that the fingertips were cut off. It might actually only be an inadvertent wear pattern that users learned to live with.
I'm already dead over the poise.
I think the main reason that would make sense is to prevent the tip from catching in cloth or in the wicker shields they used in those regions.
Interestingly, matt pointed out in various different videos that even rounded tipps of sparring swords are not safe.
And that doesn't include poorly maintained sparring swords, who broke during exercise.
BTW. A colleague of mine is a traditional fencer and in her club, a members (poorly maintained) florett broke and only the top notch protective suit and sheer luck saved her sword brother from being terriy injured.
Even if a rounded off tip isn't bale to get through the armour it could still be very effective vs unprotected areas.
An example would be where a soldier has an open faced helmet, or only a nasal bar(? - it's late here). When those openings come up a rounded tip would be sufficient to exploit them, maybe take out an eye or worse.
I think I'd like to learn more about reinforced tips. It's an interesting way to move mass forward for better cutting. Maybe improve thrusts vs mail?
I'm a fan of Matts work, but I think you are more correct on rounded tips here. Nice tips probably broke often enough that we could have heaps of historical swords with repair work on them.
As others probably pointed out, it would be awesome to be able to actually see you discuss this with Matt.
As a weapon user for over a decade, if I had to guess why some swords had such tips, I'd assume it a durability issue. Perhaps the materials of the time made it harder to effectively hold a tip, and to prevent damage more apprentice/layman swordmakers just skipped having a tip. I know in ancient China a lot of swords were made without tips for just such a reason. They were mass-produced and it was more a matter of quantity.
I've had swords made from modern materials chip off at the tip, so one made in the 1100's would be much more susceptible.
Great points 😉
My only historical sword has a curled tip. Now it doesn't thrust well and snags when cutting.
I have heard from an African history channel (forgot which one), that rounded tip easier to maintain and also to remove from being stuck in something esp. African shields. That would be interesting to test.
8:10
Remove is different than getting in their in first place
I love honest, scholarly discussions as opposed to the internet talking head drama. Both you guys are so informative.
There is a kind of steakhouse where the waiters walks around among the tables, and cuts meat of a roasting-spit onto your plate with a sword. A lot of proper war-swords might well have been adapted to be used for such endevours as firearms made swords obsolete. A rounded tip would be a definite workplace-safety-increase in such a place. Also when swords do not always conform to the ideas of a tool for war, consider that it could have been nothing but oversized cutlery... Have a nice new year both of you!
You think rodizio, which originated in Brazil and only became popular in Brazil in the mid 1900's is the reason swords all over the world have rounded points?
Even though espitos in Brazil are purpose made skewers, not repurposed swords?
You brought up what I'd always thought about the blades that lack a point. I had just assumed, due to metallurgical limitations, pointy tips were likely to break, and so were not used... or simply had broken off and been repaired in a more rounded form.
I say you get a sword with a rounded tip and compare it to a same style weapon on thrusting. Testing against armor types that would be used in the same era. I am guessing rounded tips on a heavy tapered blade will still have very high success but require a weapon that does not require the same quality in metal or metal smith skills.
Technically, profile taper will also help the stiffness a bit, even if it's a lot less effective than distal taper (apologies if I'm using that word wrong) for that.
Also, to the point of "it can probably thrust through plain clothing", it's my understanding that many of these rounded-tip weapons where used in HOT climates where proper armor wasn't really a thing because it would kill combatants via dehydration. So, even professional soldiers in pitched battles would be relatively unprotected compared to contemporary European battlefields.
Really good arguments Skal. You also managed to stay very respectful towards Matt. It would be "hard to be offended" by this video so you did great XD
"It would be hard to be offended by this" - Some rando on the internet: "Hold my Mountain Dew" :D
@@Skallagrim hate to say it but, you're definitely right.
@@Skallagrim as someone who literally just drank a mountain dew, I'm definitely offended. ;)
I watched Matt´s video when it was posted. Disagreement from people like you and Matt usually provides new angles on a topic and no beef. I appreciate that.
Fencing accidents with broken tips do not only happen in HEMA. There were several occassions were sport fencers were severly injured or killed when the competitors blade broke and penetrated the jacket or the mask.
Many people who accidentally slipped with a screwdriver and stabbed themselves may agree with your statement that a blunt tip still has a lot of potential to inflict damage.
I recall a movie scene from "The three musketeers" with Michael York. In the final showdown the opponent breaks off the tip of York´s rapier and gets stabbed anyway - ironically partly because breaking the tip frees the blade from a bind with the dagger.
I've made a few morningstars for car smash events (people pay to smash a junk car for charity) and having the tips of the spikes bend and curl after hours and hours of hitting solid metal is definitely an issue. I was just working with 1/2" mild steel for the spikes themselves and forging them to a square point using my pretty amateur blacksmith skills, if you have a thin, pointed shape made of iron or low carbon steel this would be a real problem and I think the wideness of that kind of blade really speaks to this.
Another possibility is your apprentice made a great sword but butched the tip, so you round it off and sell it at a discount. Because it's still a great sword, as you said the thrust still works, just not quite as well.
I suspect many people carried swords for defence and hoped to never use them, they might be okay with saving money on a less optimal blade. Even people going to war, many might be archers or spearman, they still want a sword sidearm in case, but they are hoping to never need it and relay on the primary weapon.
When everything is handmade everything is expensive and uniformity is more rare.
Same reason people carry a Taurus: you don't need the best of you're just looking for a cheap deterrent to cowards screwing with you.
I'm so glad that SKALL is still here.
I learned about the sweet spot on a sword that I didn't know.
Please get into the subject of the wide variety stone blades and their uses of the past! Ever heard of the Gunther? I'm sure you would be very fascinated and discusted by it!
Dive Knives were made predominantly with a blunt tip for a time. it was a fad, and it became such a thing due to using the knives as tools, specifically to pry things open. a point is too weak for such and tends to bend, but a cut off end that is filed to an edge will pry much better. so if the sword is used against armor, by prying it open, you might want a squared off point. you won't be able to punch through chain and cloth as well, but that might not be the main issue, so sacrificing such might be a good trade. another issue might be the tip breaking off with a near miss (slashing with only the tip) against hard armor, resulting in more danger to the wielder than what is worth the trade.
The reinforced tip sword you showed in an example picture seems really unique. I would love a video dedicated to the particularities of such a blade
So I used to do Olympic Style Fencing, even though blades are both very flexible and dull (with electronic scoring buttons on the end) there is a reason everything you are wearing is made out of Kevlar weave, because something doesn't need to be razor sharp to cause damage with a thrust. As you mentioned a blade breaking, I got 20 stitches along my leg for a blade snapping mid match (tip sheered off from a parry), the completion of the strike hit my leg and was so razor sharp it went thru the kevlar and sliced open my leg. Fun times :)
With only seeing the snippet you posted, my immediate thought was exactly what you mention @ 7:00 into the video. Steel quality has always been an issue through history, and soldiers do the best they can to repair in situ.
Rounded tip can be sharpened around the edge and will be just as stabby plus stronger than a fine tip I have a old German blade that maybe 1/8" of the tip was missing I purposely left the tip slightly rounded for strength it's razor sharp on the tip even though it's slightly rounded
Listening to to attempt to not make any puns was hilarious. One serious note, I agree with what you said, there is no way to clearly discern the reasons for rounding the tip of a blade in many cases. There are many reasons to do so
It could also be a time-saving measure. If a bunch of swords need to be made, as soon as possible, skipping adding a point (I imagine a somewhat finicky operation), over the course of hundreds of blades could be incredibly valuable in a time-crunch situation.
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
"Hyah! I think Skallagrim got... the point!"
Many excellent points in the discussions. I want to throw in one more POSSIBLE reason why some swords had rounded tips. First, thrusts are more likely to deliver a deadly injury than a cut. Second, fighting does not always mean killing. You may actually want to avoid killing an opponent - if you want to capture them alive or if you want to avoid a deadly feud with the neighboring tribe or clan! I know next to nothing about the area where takoubas come from, but I can imagine that the desire to limit the deadliness of the sword for societal, religious, magical reasons could come into play.
I’ve made this point myself when regarding other weapons like the katzbalger, maybe it just broke and the best thing to do was “make do”
A friend of mine was doing some Harnischfetchen. He didn't have voiders. His opponent's rubber tip failed, and the rounded blunt point of the blade pierced his gambeson and stabbed into his armpit. It missed anything vital and needed a few stitches, but we now refer needless damage from lack of proper protection as getting Kevined.
just from the engineering point of view, I could think of a few things why it makes sense to not have a tip:
1. does the tip actually improve the armor penetratioon capability? You will penetrate soft targets without a tip as well and I doubt, that you will suddenly be able to penetrate armor when you add a more or less thin tip
2. tips can break and fly off uncontrollably (eg in a public setting) when they are hardend
3. they will bend and basicly cant be hardened for the reason stated in 2.
4. you need to hit the tip very frequently while smithing, decreasing the material quality at that point of the blade compared to the rest of the blade (assumption, and it almost certainly can be fixed, but that would take time and money)
5. the longer a sword is, the more it will bend when stabbing something. So at some lengh it just doesnt make sense anymore to stab with a blade, because you will bend/break it. So it wont need a tip by design. This lengh is dependend on the width of same blade, thus long stabbing weapons would need to be very heavy to endure the bending force.
I think those points might add to some of the things you said, but as Im not a historian - I have no idea
Those were truly some cutting-edge puns, they really helped this video push the point and pommel Matt’s arguments. But seriously good points and I seriously loved the puns.
Tip comparison between that 1796 LC and katana is interesting. They look similar on profiles, but the 1796 LC is much thinner at around 2mm at the tip. Maybe that makes a huge different in thrust performance? Historically people did wine about its ineffectiveness in thrusting, and thus made prototypes to mitigate that.
Oh, Shit! I came up with the reparative tip shape argument during the video, as Skall described it! Sometimes it's better to shave and sharpen than make a whole new tip from scratch
I would say that fine tips needed to be maintained by the wielder rather frequently.
But that swords in general had sharp tips, I would also say was the NORM in history. Minor wear and tear degrades the tip and in archeology makes them hard to detect.
Actual artwork from various periods depicts the average intact* sword as having a sharp thrusting tip.
Also countless 1st hand descriptions of longswords etc. as thrusting weapons...
The Bible, of all books, comes to mind as consistently describing swords as thrusting weapons.
I enjoyed this video. Plenty of good points, no pointless fluff, lots of fun.
Also how many blades broke during fights to the death? Probably quite a lot of them. Now out of those that did, how many people thought, "oh hey my sword broke I need a new one! This will do" grabbed the unbroken blade from some dead person nearby and walked off? Just a different perspective to think from.
Would a less-pointy, but pointy enough, point akshually do more damage?
I imagine that getting your sword stuck in the your opponents armour, shield or even bones would be pretty dangerous. Maybe a rounded tip offers similar piercing capability agaist minimal armour without the risk of the sword getting stuck.
@skallagrim @3:16 sorry to have to point it out but there is another reason to go for a profile taper. strength, if the blade is thicker at the base
& thins out towards to point it reduces the chance of the whole sword bending/breaking towards the base... which may be something you wish to avoid in the middle of battle. this is especially true when using sub-standard materials.
A number of iron age swords have bluntish or even blunt (Lindholmgård Mose sword) tips. It may be that these were only used from horseback and slashing was preferred but that's nothing but speculation.
There is only one way to settle such disagreements - with a duel!
The "broken and repaired" poi--theory--is the one I think scholars overlook the most. A lot of weapons are found on old battlefields, where a combatant dropped it. Those combatants didn't always have the time or money to visit a smith between battles to re-profile the tip and had to make do with a grindstone or whetstone in camp for repairs in the meantime.
I like that as I finish a video of your in my watch later on shield bosses, you upload right as it ends. Today is a Skall day 🙂 * edit after 15 seconds * and the puns are great 👍 😆
Interesting vid. My first thought was: Tips break. Glad you adressed it thoroughly.
I mean you make a good point. We know from history and your videos and others videos, that non pointy swords are very capable thrusters. I just always figured it came down to the person and country the swords were made as to why some have pointy tips and some don't.
These are well-thought-out counter - **points** to the main **thrust** of Matt's argument, that will hopefully **tip** the **balance** of popular belief regarding this sword in favour of a more physically-accurate and well-**rounded** explanation. Good on you for taking a **stab** at this one. Hopefully Matt takes this well and doesn't see this as an attempt to **cut him down** - unfortunately this sort of discourse can be a **double-edged sword** like that sometimes.
Just following up on the last point you made: there have been occurrences in sport fencing where a blade broke and penetrated a jacket or mask. The case I know about (though I've been told there were others) was with an epee, but that still is a piece of metal explicitly designed not to kill people. The takeaway here isn't that broken pieces of metal are dangerous, since I'd hope that's self-evident, but that a committed, forceful thrust that's aimed a good target is going to seriously injure whoever it hits regardless of point quality. Even if your sword isn't an ideal thrusting weapon a strike to soft tissue is going to penetrate, and Vikings for example were mostly fighting opponents without much face protection. If the most common approach to combat in your culture or region emphasizes cutting you can still thrust opportunistically with basically any blade shape, and since you want to cut when you can there's no reason not to optimize for it.
Great response video, great demonstration of your arguments with example swords you have. Now im wondering, how well can a rounded tip sword (more or less the one Matt used for his vid) thrust.
Matt did bring up the argument that those blades were imported to Africa. Does rounding of the tip make it easier to transport a blade, in moddern days there is often a protective cover over the tip of a sword for transportation, one reason of a rounded tip could have been for a more safe way to transport the swords but hey thats just a wild guess.
Also a rounded tip can also be deceptively sharp, not all rounded tips are created equal. I have a antique Tulwar I bought from a auction in the UK, it has a quite round tip, but it is sharpened all the way around and in the last few inches is barley 1mm thick. Even being quite wide, it is essentially a paddle shaped razor blade, which should have no problem penetrating clothing or flesh, useless against armor, but then, most people didn't wear armor in 19th century India.
i think that this is the first completely polite response-disagreement video i've ever seen on youtube
I carry a pocket knife whose tip broke, that I just reshaped into a slightly rounded point. And I suspect even a slightly rounded point, if well sharpened, would pierce a lot of clothing, just not something like chainmail.
I suspect a lot of viking blades have lost their tips. Not that they were made with very fine points, but the spatulate shape might be exaggerated by the wear on the blade. But, who knows, it's likely some were made quite rounded to avoid breaking the tip, or due to repairs.
Archibald: I think that enemy got the...wait. Something's off here.
I think it's honestly more likely to be the case that it's easier. I'd imagine that if a point on a blade was the first thing to break as it got thinner and thinner, and the broken tip would compromise the weapon, it was likely cheaper or just easier to make a weapon with a round tip with the exact purpose of glancing off it's target so it would be easier to fix/build/ect.
Exactly what i thought from beginning - it can be just chipped tip....
Great insights btw.
Poor guy had to repeatedly say "profile taper" because he couldn't say the other P word 🤣 great video, love your style of content!
Maybe it has to do with the rawhide-covered shields in African and Norse culture. You wouldn't want the sword to get stuck in a shield easily, but the rounded tip would still be good enough for thrusting.
8:10 he addresses this
“He didn’t have a point” 🤣🤣…..visually and literally 🤷
Ancient people : crafting toys for their kids
Archaeologists : "these must be figurines of the ancient gods"
I enjoy polite scholarly debate. I still tend to be more convinced by Matt's arguments than by Skall's in this case, but both provide good food for thought.
I've seen a dagger with a rounded tip because it was required to have the tip rounded to get through Taiwan customs.
I would never suggest that all these swords went through Taiwan, that would be ridiculous. But I can imagine many nations/cities at many different times could have similar policies. Perhaps you are allowed to make swords, but not allowed to finish the edge or tip in city limits. When someone buys such a blades they will definitely hone the edge, but some people will be too lazy to grind a tip into it.
Just a little theory that probably has no weight.
This might have some merit, also making a pointed tip is much more complicated in terms of the work involved. So it wasn't very popular because it was extra work that wasn't necessary.
I would like to add to the comments before me that when a pointy sword loses its tip, it would take a lot of grinding to bring a sword down to a new point with good aesthetics. It would be much quicker to grind it to a hatchet point.
0:42 To quote Jeannie Bueller: ''Thankyou, no; I'm straight...''
Beyond the sword shape, you also have take into account the evolution of Armor as well. Earlier Armors didn't cover much of the body so slashes/cuts where easier then thrusts. Then Armor included more protection over time so thrusts became more effective/helpful then purely slashing. So they're connected with developments that become more necessary.
"The wasteland of Twitter" LOL I love this comment!
I have 5 takouba, of them 3 have points and 2 have the round tip
My first thought.
Is bcs it doesn't get stuck in bone & light armour.
In warm countries where people don't wear thick layers of clothes & armour. You know the blade will likely make contact on direct skin, or through light clothes. Without the need for extra piercing power.
And if you where to thrust a leather shield, or bone, it wouldn't get stuck. Yet still pierce a person if hit.
One thing popping into mind is that not all swords were necessarily made to kill people. Dueling blades might have rounded tips to prevent deep penetration and instead just cause big visible wounds. Like fencing tradition in Europe turned more and more into dueling in Italy and "sportive" fencing in Germany, which both had their effects on how fencing was being instructed.
Much like some(many?) knife fighting traditions seem to be mainly about cutting, likely due moral and legal reasons.
I'm sure its not intentional but some of the comments about poor smiths/bad material quality here are ignorant of African ironworking skills. A. The Iron Age in this part of Africa was somewhere around 2000 BCE. B. The Tuareg people were often mounted warriors with lance as their primary weapon, plenty pointy. They also had arm daggers which often have fine points. C. Check out kpinga, ngulu, shotel, plenty more for evidence of amazing African iron work. D. Many of these blades were also trade blades that came from Europe, and were likely not broken but rounded off out of preference for fighting style.
Next video title idea : stick to the point
Shad : SOMEBODY SAY STICK??
I love the bits at the beginning! 😂
I've always thought that this is mostly a durability issue, from two different directions. 1, most swords of the quality of steel (or iron) available would probably have no sharp tip after being used in battle and resharpened. 2, because of point 1, people would see fighters who had seen combat have blunt tips on their swords--and swords from these people would probably be resold second hand as well--and might just ask for a less fragile design to begin with
To be clear, I'm talking specifically about swords designed to have some thrusting ability
i have some input. As a person who has forged knives before forging sharp points is time consuming and annoying and often times i end up having to do alot of work on the grinder to get a pointy profile. This might be why many swords werent very pointy. Blacksmiths were putting in the least effort possible to make the sword as cheap as possible for the common person/soldier, of course they arent gonna spend lots of time forging and grinding the tip, especially when they can make it blunter and still get acceptable results.
also as some other people have suggested, a sharpened rounded point penetrates very well and is much stronger than a normal point. You can also cut with a sharpened point which is important in dueling since the object of a sword fight is to stay as far away from your enemies sword meaning alot of cuts are with the tip, compare that to a thicker blunted pointier tip.
The main thrust of this video penetrated my doubts and pierced any objection.
For sword points...
See the Murder Dagger, the Rondel Dagger.
There's a point, and having a nicely shaped and strong sword is going to also be beneficial.
Albeit once armor got to the, "Why bother with a point?"
That's when schools seemed to drift and differ.
This debate can only be resolved in one way: a DUEL!!
Skall hittin us with that classic English essay;
Use a variety of synonyms to get your *point* across, never repeat the same word over and over again!
One hypothethis for the rounded tips would be, that these swords were intended for practice, and rounding of the tip lowered an unnecessary risk.
I'm pretty sure I have heard of a fencing foil finding it's way through light clothing and running someone through. If a sword designed to not stab you, can stab you, then I'm pretty sure a sword with a rounded tip, designed to kill you, can probably still stab you.
I agree with your observation that rounded tips are probably due to damage sustained to blade tips. It's a heck of a lot easier to round off a broken tip, than it is to reshape a point.