I'm in tears watching this. I used to be a dev for 15+ years, until my ADHD became too unmanageably difficult for me to handle. So I eventually quit the industry altogether. I'm now a fruit orchard farmer and baker for the last 3+ years. I still occasionally code in C++, Rust and Python but mainly for fun and for helping young programmers new to the field.
I think ADHD is almost a misnomer. I have that diagnosis as an adult, and how I see it is that "executive dysfunction" would describe it better. All ADHDs I know have only one thing common: it's not hyperactivity, but almost physical inability to do boring things. I need to bend over sideways and then some to do something I have zero interest in, even though I'm also conscientious in a sense that I have sense of responsibility, hate slacking and not doing one's duty. This guy totally nailed it. Great host as always, and great guest < 3
TDD helps a lot. Not getting a steady drip of feedback from a big task that’s taking forever? Write a test for a smaller problem, make it pass, commit, enjoy the dopamine tingle. Rinse and repeat and suddenly the day’s finished and you’ve done a bunch of useful stuff.
I can really appreciate this interview. It is very difficult managing life with ADHD. I can attest to it too and what a great interview and information. If only we could do something about the advertising industry. That seems almost unfair. Thanks again Kris and Chris.
I can relate to the management of dopamine as a key element to productivity in programming. Goal driven behavior is all well and good, but the goals need to be aligned with an appropriate effort/time/reward ratio. Do what you can, not what you want to do. This can be tough for adhd, but is an important survival tactic. Look for low hanging fruit. Take care of the little things first, when you run out of little things, look for more little things. Rinse and repeat. Remember your successes, the feelings, orient yourself towards these. Exercise, it’s been shown to boost dopamine.
Not a doctor, but the way Kris is able to let his guests talk for so long without interrupting them, makes me believe that indeed, he probably does not have ADHD :) Thanks a lot for the video
I literally went in and booked my docker appointment before the talk was even finished. My wife was in tears, it have taking me soo long to get the appointment and take the talk. And it have been so hard for her in the process, so she was just happy that i start the journey. Thank you very much
I really enjoyed this episode, it was interesting to hear the perspective of someone who not only has ADHD but understands how it affects themselves, how it differs from others with the same diagnosis and the strengths and challenges it provides in navigating the development world. To address the closing question of the podcast, I'm more than happy for the net to be widened as you put it in regards to future podcast topics :)
42:42 nails it. The label is for the person to figure out how to tell others how they work best. Without understanding ADHD the person themselves is clueless to communicating how they function best to others who work with them. Getting the most out of someone with ADHD always yields measurably higher output, but there are higher input costs to managing that employee if they can't communicate to the manager how to get the most out of them. It's not better or worse, just different.
This resonated with me so much that I immediately scheduled an appointment with a neurologist for an official diagnosis. For as long as I can remember, I've felt that I have ADHD, even since high school. Although I have struggled in school, university, and my IT work, I've always managed to get through those challenges. I clearly remember a time in university when a friend of mine, who had been diagnosed with ADHD, gave me Ritalin to try. The difference in my ability to concentrate and avoid distractions was stark. During that period, he was able to spare me several Ritalin tablets each month, which helped me tremendously during exam weeks and stressful times. That experience made me realize that I needed to see a doctor and get a proper diagnosis. I kept telling myself that I would do it when I had more free time, but I never got around to it. However, this developer voices episode was the final push I needed to take action. The things that Chris described about how he feels and how ADHD impacts his work resonated with me so much that it felt like he was describing my own experiences. It instantly clicked for me, and now I'm on my way to getting a proper diagnosis and hopefully taking active steps to improve my situation. Thank you very much for this episode.
I liked this one. I think it was great! You l'd i say every time, no but going off the beaten path from time to time was rather refreshing and this was still relevant to boot! Thank you!
For what it's worth, my experience: For the extreme mood swing I suffered for most of my life I use the Keto diet to treat it. Initially tried Carnivore as an elimination diet for other problems and it worked extremely well, way better than Keto even, but was ultimately too expensive to keep up with high meat prices, high taxes and the current inflation (wages haven't gone up but my grocery bill more than doubled since 2020 in Germany). Anyways, mood is stable, I only get irritated when it's in expected and my energy levels are flat, which means no caffeine and I feel fresh and awake all day. My wife who is diagnosed with ADHD has the same experience. Worth a try even if it doesn't help with the rest of traits.
... Same my side... my parents always just said i was "busy", I sort of eventually figured out I have it, officially diagnosed 2 weeks after my 50th BD. I call my mind the hamster... I always have to focus on multiple things to keep things calm, same on talking fast... so much resonates.
My only complaint would be that he's underselling how exhausting it can be to have ADHD, especially if you're undiagnosed because you're "too smart" and used unsustainable coping strategies because for your entire childhood you've always been told "you're smart, now if only you put in a little bit more effort and actually used that" while giving your 100% and still falling short. It took me almost 40 years to get a diagnosis and apparently all my lifetime of mental health issues stem from my ADHD.
I didn’t know that I was on Kris’ podcast!? 😂 I‘ve been getting closer to getting that official diagnosis, but don’t really want to have the label. I feel like everything he said is what I battle with every day - at work and life in general. His point about the re-skinning the same website is akin to my analogy of putting the same puzzle together every day, it’s mentally challenging (which we should like yes?) but when you’ve done the same puzzle for a month straight sometimes you just want to get the LEGO out
the thing with my adhd is... sometimes i will be extremely focused and productive, it can be one of those moments of genius that i'll do months of work in a day or maybe a few, and as a manager if you manage to detect that and avoid distracting me with stupid meetings or start micromanaging With time as a person with ADHD i'm learning to detect sooner when i'm struggling so i can communicate with the manager but here's the thing, sometimes i just can't tell, so the difficult part about managing people, specially with adhd is to notice those moments as soon as possible to maximize how i work and not just have a person that sometimes is good and sometimes bad
Oh, this talk is such a "relief" in a way...knowing that I'm not just "weird" in the wrong sense... Lovely podcast! But there is always that one yet (to me at least) unanswered point which I am wondering about: - is this "condition" something one should tell his/her team leader or manager, or rather not? bcs I feel like this might perhaps end up getting abused, much like some wanna-be innocent-playing female might play things out as if e.g. the husband was abusive to her and cry (bcs some women excel in that I suppose...?) in front of say the court or whatever, while he hasn't done anything to her, yet its played against him. (overkill example, but you get the gist). Bcs if it is NOT gonna be abused, this MIGHT (depending on how somebody handles that in a well-intentioned manner) dramatically help out in achieving a superb team-chemistry (assuming the person you told knows a bit about this "condition" and doesn't just take it as "oh well, he/she's just hyper-active and wobbles his/her feet a lot in the chair" or similar misconceptions). I believe there are probably a couple of ppl who might very much enjoy going to a coffee shop and do their work/learning/whatever there, as is the modern "clichè" I suppose, and I would SOOO much want to love it too, but every time I try and go to a cafe with my laptop, I just cannot help but wonder about things around me, like: observing the baristas (non-intrusively! xD), try and see if there is somebody nice-seeming next to me to talk to (if they're not otherwise engaged ofc #respectprivacy), or stuff like that...and it is so incredibly annoying to have this happen to me, when I would just so much enjoy a non-overwhelmingly-filled mind with thoughts and other nonsense but just be able to focus in between sips of cappuccino...ugh And BTW, the thing (roughly at 59:32) where Chris F. talks about "there have been times when I would just stare at a screen for 8 hours and get nothing done" is waaay to annyoing, relatable and oh my god so painful to experience, cuz I then just feel so empty and unsatisfied...ugh Also, Imma get myself now on Amazon a carboard Han Solo and place him in EACH ROOM where the braing should "do its job" for the task(s) at hand xDD
Thanks for the video! As for the question, I think you are an excellent interviewer, you could have interviews about [insert the boring thing here] and you would make it interesting. So to me, keeping strictly within the topic of development is not necessary.
I'll watch the video, as I like all your videos, but I personally have a huge issue with the whole ADHD topic. I am exaggerating a bit, but it feels like everyone and their mother is self diagnosing themselves with ADHD and it's even more pronounced among programmers. It is as an easy cope for a lot of people to justify their failures and/or shortcomings and instead of trying to improve they use the adhd "excuse". Maybe everyone has adhd nowadays or just maybe people have a phone/dopamine addiction. I wonder whether people who actually have ADHD see this as a problem. Maybe this video answers it and/or gives me a new perspective. Edit: liked the video up until the end. Do not agree at all with Chris Ferdinandi's take that a self diagnosis can be enough. He even says throughout the video that a lot of advice for people with adhd online does not work at all, because the people writing those articles do not actually have adhd
Sorry, but I hope you understand that naming a problem is something completely different than "making excuses". I hope you are always careful to make that distinction. If you do, I guess you will find a lot of people who want to improve and perhaps they also need your support -- if only acknowledgment.
@AloisMahdal I do not understand how you can give that response after reading my comment or you are just trying to stand on some moral high ground, as is often case. I do not seek the solution to symptoms, but rather prevention of the actual condition. Those who self diagnose with ADHD and never actually went to a doctor are not helped by my useless acknowledgent and it serves no purpose other than making me feel like some good guy, despite having done nothing.
@@mazdakkite I think there is an issue with opening with prejudgment: I'll watch the video, but most are faking ADHD to cover their own failures is a mood. If you cast shade prior to viewing the video, then a bias is pretty evident. There are a *lot* of people who are of the "mental disorders aren't real because I can't see them with my eyes" and the original comment gives off that vibe pretty hard. Did actually watching the video provide any insights?
@godeketime I don't think that it comes across like that. I tried to make it clear that I dislike the whole self diagnosing industry that's widespread and people building actual identities around it. No one is helped with that and it's harmful. I am halfway through listening right now btw and I like the conversation, as always.
Not everything needs a "professional" or "medical" diagnosis. People who are gay or bisexual self-diagnose, for example. People can often recognise relevant traits and feelings within themselves, relate those to the experiences and behaviours of others and draw parallels and meaningful conclusions. Would you say a gay man is using the homosexual "excuse" for why they're not interested in female partners?
I'm in tears watching this. I used to be a dev for 15+ years, until my ADHD became too unmanageably difficult for me to handle. So I eventually quit the industry altogether.
I'm now a fruit orchard farmer and baker for the last 3+ years. I still occasionally code in C++, Rust and Python but mainly for fun and for helping young programmers new to the field.
Thanks for having me on the show, Kris! You were a fantastic interviewer, and it was an absolute delight to chat with you!
My pleasure! It was an unexpected treat - I'm really glad we talked. 😀
That cost of interruption and not doing anything for the next 30 minutes because a meeting is coming up are so real!
I think ADHD is almost a misnomer. I have that diagnosis as an adult, and how I see it is that "executive dysfunction" would describe it better. All ADHDs I know have only one thing common: it's not hyperactivity, but almost physical inability to do boring things. I need to bend over sideways and then some to do something I have zero interest in, even though I'm also conscientious in a sense that I have sense of responsibility, hate slacking and not doing one's duty.
This guy totally nailed it. Great host as always, and great guest < 3
TDD helps a lot. Not getting a steady drip of feedback from a big task that’s taking forever? Write a test for a smaller problem, make it pass, commit, enjoy the dopamine tingle. Rinse and repeat and suddenly the day’s finished and you’ve done a bunch of useful stuff.
I'm totally with you, my team lead was amazed by my approach to TDD testing... lol...
Awesome interview, once again. The fact this channel hasn't blown up yet is a crime.
I can really appreciate this interview. It is very difficult managing life with ADHD. I can attest to it too and what a great interview and information. If only we could do something about the advertising industry. That seems almost unfair. Thanks again Kris and Chris.
I can relate to the management of dopamine as a key element to productivity in programming. Goal driven behavior is all well and good, but the goals need to be aligned with an appropriate effort/time/reward ratio. Do what you can, not what you want to do. This can be tough for adhd, but is an important survival tactic. Look for low hanging fruit. Take care of the little things first, when you run out of little things, look for more little things. Rinse and repeat. Remember your successes, the feelings, orient yourself towards these. Exercise, it’s been shown to boost dopamine.
great episode. in my opinion when it comes to guest choice. i cant remember a miss since i started watching regularly. keep it up
Not a doctor, but the way Kris is able to let his guests talk for so long without interrupting them, makes me believe that indeed, he probably does not have ADHD :) Thanks a lot for the video
I literally went in and booked my docker appointment before the talk was even finished. My wife was in tears, it have taking me soo long to get the appointment and take the talk. And it have been so hard for her in the process, so she was just happy that i start the journey. Thank you very much
I really enjoyed this episode, it was interesting to hear the perspective of someone who not only has ADHD but understands how it affects themselves, how it differs from others with the same diagnosis and the strengths and challenges it provides in navigating the development world. To address the closing question of the podcast, I'm more than happy for the net to be widened as you put it in regards to future podcast topics :)
42:42 nails it. The label is for the person to figure out how to tell others how they work best. Without understanding ADHD the person themselves is clueless to communicating how they function best to others who work with them.
Getting the most out of someone with ADHD always yields measurably higher output, but there are higher input costs to managing that employee if they can't communicate to the manager how to get the most out of them. It's not better or worse, just different.
This resonated with me so much that I immediately scheduled an appointment with a neurologist for an official diagnosis. For as long as I can remember, I've felt that I have ADHD, even since high school. Although I have struggled in school, university, and my IT work, I've always managed to get through those challenges.
I clearly remember a time in university when a friend of mine, who had been diagnosed with ADHD, gave me Ritalin to try. The difference in my ability to concentrate and avoid distractions was stark. During that period, he was able to spare me several Ritalin tablets each month, which helped me tremendously during exam weeks and stressful times.
That experience made me realize that I needed to see a doctor and get a proper diagnosis. I kept telling myself that I would do it when I had more free time, but I never got around to it. However, this developer voices episode was the final push I needed to take action. The things that Chris described about how he feels and how ADHD impacts his work resonated with me so much that it felt like he was describing my own experiences.
It instantly clicked for me, and now I'm on my way to getting a proper diagnosis and hopefully taking active steps to improve my situation. Thank you very much for this episode.
Wow, this was a really helpful conversation for me. Thanks for including this topic in the show.
This was incredibly valuable.
Thank you both for the conversation.
I liked this one. I think it was great! You l'd i say every time, no but going off the beaten path from time to time was rather refreshing and this was still relevant to boot! Thank you!
Most wholesome programming host, love the show ❤
For what it's worth, my experience: For the extreme mood swing I suffered for most of my life I use the Keto diet to treat it. Initially tried Carnivore as an elimination diet for other problems and it worked extremely well, way better than Keto even, but was ultimately too expensive to keep up with high meat prices, high taxes and the current inflation (wages haven't gone up but my grocery bill more than doubled since 2020 in Germany). Anyways, mood is stable, I only get irritated when it's in expected and my energy levels are flat, which means no caffeine and I feel fresh and awake all day. My wife who is diagnosed with ADHD has the same experience.
Worth a try even if it doesn't help with the rest of traits.
Fascinating podcast! Great thread to pull on for those of us where this resonates heavily. Thanks Kris & Chris!
... Same my side... my parents always just said i was "busy", I sort of eventually figured out I have it, officially diagnosed 2 weeks after my 50th BD.
I call my mind the hamster... I always have to focus on multiple things to keep things calm, same on talking fast... so much resonates.
Extremely interesting episode, as someone who has been postponing getting tested for a good while already. Thank you to the both of you
I really liked this one. And especially when Kris asked questions from a team lead perspective.
This episode was awesome!!! Tech is people, as the show title says: Developer Voices... what an awesome voice from Kris 🙌🏻
My only complaint would be that he's underselling how exhausting it can be to have ADHD, especially if you're undiagnosed because you're "too smart" and used unsustainable coping strategies because for your entire childhood you've always been told "you're smart, now if only you put in a little bit more effort and actually used that" while giving your 100% and still falling short. It took me almost 40 years to get a diagnosis and apparently all my lifetime of mental health issues stem from my ADHD.
One foot outside the tech like this is good imo, feel free to do more
Loved this. Fantastic interview as always.
I didn’t know that I was on Kris’ podcast!? 😂 I‘ve been getting closer to getting that official diagnosis, but don’t really want to have the label. I feel like everything he said is what I battle with every day - at work and life in general. His point about the re-skinning the same website is akin to my analogy of putting the same puzzle together every day, it’s mentally challenging (which we should like yes?) but when you’ve done the same puzzle for a month straight sometimes you just want to get the LEGO out
My number is 69. If you can see the parentheses drawn by this number, you know I do love Lisp. Great interview as always!
the thing with my adhd is... sometimes i will be extremely focused and productive, it can be one of those moments of genius that i'll do months of work in a day or maybe a few, and as a manager if you manage to detect that and avoid distracting me with stupid meetings or start micromanaging
With time as a person with ADHD i'm learning to detect sooner when i'm struggling so i can communicate with the manager but here's the thing, sometimes i just can't tell, so the difficult part about managing people, specially with adhd is to notice those moments as soon as possible to maximize how i work and not just have a person that sometimes is good and sometimes bad
Oh, this talk is such a "relief" in a way...knowing that I'm not just "weird" in the wrong sense...
Lovely podcast!
But there is always that one yet (to me at least) unanswered point which I am wondering about:
- is this "condition" something one should tell his/her team leader or manager, or rather not? bcs I feel like this might perhaps end up getting abused, much like some wanna-be innocent-playing female might play things out as if e.g. the husband was abusive to her and cry (bcs some women excel in that I suppose...?) in front of say the court or whatever, while he hasn't done anything to her, yet its played against him. (overkill example, but you get the gist). Bcs if it is NOT gonna be abused, this MIGHT (depending on how somebody handles that in a well-intentioned manner) dramatically help out in achieving a superb team-chemistry (assuming the person you told knows a bit about this "condition" and doesn't just take it as "oh well, he/she's just hyper-active and wobbles his/her feet a lot in the chair" or similar misconceptions).
I believe there are probably a couple of ppl who might very much enjoy going to a coffee shop and do their work/learning/whatever there, as is the modern "clichè" I suppose, and I would SOOO much want to love it too, but every time I try and go to a cafe with my laptop, I just cannot help but wonder about things around me, like: observing the baristas (non-intrusively! xD), try and see if there is somebody nice-seeming next to me to talk to (if they're not otherwise engaged ofc #respectprivacy), or stuff like that...and it is so incredibly annoying to have this happen to me, when I would just so much enjoy a non-overwhelmingly-filled mind with thoughts and other nonsense but just be able to focus in between sips of cappuccino...ugh
And BTW, the thing (roughly at 59:32) where Chris F. talks about "there have been times when I would just stare at a screen for 8 hours and get nothing done" is waaay to annyoing, relatable and oh my god so painful to experience, cuz I then just feel so empty and unsatisfied...ugh
Also, Imma get myself now on Amazon a carboard Han Solo and place him in EACH ROOM where the braing should "do its job" for the task(s) at hand xDD
Thanks for the video! As for the question, I think you are an excellent interviewer, you could have interviews about [insert the boring thing here] and you would make it interesting.
So to me, keeping strictly within the topic of development is not necessary.
"Humans have a long history of being awful"
- Chris Ferdinandi
Best, most accurate and saddest quote ever... 🙈
👍
How difficult would it be to be a manager with ADHD?
AI is such a huge gift for the ADHD gifted.
As someone who is officially diagnosed with ADHD, I couldn’t agree more.
interesting but lots of ads! it breaks the flow and my brain flow away lol
Hands up if you had to watch it on 1.5X to keep your attention 🤚
2x :/
@@anthonylaiferrario Yeeeah I just got there... ^_^
I usually watch every at at 3x
My GF is getting to the end of her tether listening to lectures at 2x speed, I can’t put her through a podcast too 😂
I know so many ADHD folks who do this, but my brain can't process quick enough to do it. Respect!
I'll watch the video, as I like all your videos, but I personally have a huge issue with the whole ADHD topic. I am exaggerating a bit, but it feels like everyone and their mother is self diagnosing themselves with ADHD and it's even more pronounced among programmers.
It is as an easy cope for a lot of people to justify their failures and/or shortcomings and instead of trying to improve they use the adhd "excuse". Maybe everyone has adhd nowadays or just maybe people have a phone/dopamine addiction. I wonder whether people who actually have ADHD see this as a problem. Maybe this video answers it and/or gives me a new perspective.
Edit: liked the video up until the end. Do not agree at all with Chris Ferdinandi's take that a self diagnosis can be enough. He even says throughout the video that a lot of advice for people with adhd online does not work at all, because the people writing those articles do not actually have adhd
Sorry, but I hope you understand that naming a problem is something completely different than "making excuses". I hope you are always careful to make that distinction. If you do, I guess you will find a lot of people who want to improve and perhaps they also need your support -- if only acknowledgment.
@AloisMahdal I do not understand how you can give that response after reading my comment or you are just trying to stand on some moral high ground, as is often case.
I do not seek the solution to symptoms, but rather prevention of the actual condition. Those who self diagnose with ADHD and never actually went to a doctor are not helped by my useless acknowledgent and it serves no purpose other than making me feel like some good guy, despite having done nothing.
@@mazdakkite I think there is an issue with opening with prejudgment: I'll watch the video, but most are faking ADHD to cover their own failures is a mood. If you cast shade prior to viewing the video, then a bias is pretty evident. There are a *lot* of people who are of the "mental disorders aren't real because I can't see them with my eyes" and the original comment gives off that vibe pretty hard. Did actually watching the video provide any insights?
@godeketime I don't think that it comes across like that. I tried to make it clear that I dislike the whole self diagnosing industry that's widespread and people building actual identities around it. No one is helped with that and it's harmful. I am halfway through listening right now btw and I like the conversation, as always.
Not everything needs a "professional" or "medical" diagnosis. People who are gay or bisexual self-diagnose, for example. People can often recognise relevant traits and feelings within themselves, relate those to the experiences and behaviours of others and draw parallels and meaningful conclusions. Would you say a gay man is using the homosexual "excuse" for why they're not interested in female partners?