Agree with the video. Lewis has been blessed with a long career of being competitive cars at the right time. He has always been world champion quality, but if the team isn't 100% behind him he falls off a bit.
@nedzosf1gridbox Yeah, sorry I wasn't going for that angle, but you'd be hard pressed to find many drivers champions who weren't in the best car or had the support of the best team.
That's not true. Look at mclaren right now. Arguably the best car at the moment and norris isn't doing anything. To win, you have to have a good car and be the best.
I have watched F1 and Motor Racing since the late 60s and I can tell you this GOAT nonsense has become toxic. It's impossible to compare drivers from one era to another. For instance Fangio didn't start racing until his mid 20s and he didn't have any sort of physical fitness regime no trainer or motivation coach to gee him up before the race, no pleb to test drive in a simulator for hrs on end testing tyre suspension and aero set ups. Same can be said about Farina who did start young but had no assistants, as with all of the drivers of the time. I would say most of them could not have run out of site on a dark night. Things didn't change much till a couple of decades later. Put any of them into a current F1 car ( if they would fit) and they would very likely fail. Or put a current F1 driver into a car of the 50s or 60s and tell them to try and equal the times of a Fangio, Ascari or Hill I doubt they could because the mind set is totally different, everything is different.
I completely agree with you. But what we can do (a little), is compare drivers who were driving in roughly the same period. The last, let's say, 20 years we had drivers like Button, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Verstappen. And I am curious about the opinion of somebody like yourself, who has been watching racing for so long, how you place these drivers among themselves. Personally I think that Verstappen really do has that edge over Hamilton, both lightning fast, ruthless etc. but I can't help to think that Verstappen has the edge with sheer constistency and determination. Just curious of your opinion on these two and which other drivers you think belong to the best of all time.
Also, Hamilton drove in a team that believed in sharing the spoils, meaning he might have had many more wins if he was as single-minded as Verstappen and, ahem ...his father.
Whenever someone says "statistic" the next thing coming out of his mouth is pretty much certain to be a lie. Yes he won a lot of titles, but with the Mercedes AMG he really only had one competitor for eight years in a row. Common sight during those years was Lewis and his team mate already sipping on the champagne when the third car crossed the finish line. Lewis is not the GOAT because except for two of these years these were all easy wins, and he lost them both mainly because he gets frustrated when things don't go his way. 9:35 is a great example of how Lewis handles frustration, giving Max his first F1 win in his first ever drive in the RB. And then of course there was 2021, I don't believe Lewis drove the car home with two front wing end plates still attached even a single race in that season.
I’m a Ferrari fan of 35 years and not looking forward to Lewis joining. Or more so his toxic fan base. If Lewis wins anything it will be all his doing that saved Ferrari no matter how many new key figures have joined the team. If he wins nothing it will be all Ferraris fault for being shambolic despite Lewis not having won anything since 2021. Good honest video by the way. Respectful to Lewis achievements with a realistic look at his career 👍
Personally, I haven't noticed that LH fan base toxicity as much as the Verstappen tragics. Those guys spend their time accusing other commentors of being LH fan boys and acting like Jos and Marko can do nothing wrong.
@@ndh06 I follow all teams across various social media platforms, so I have personally seen and interacted with all the fanbases. There are several with varying degrees of toxicity, with some of the most toxic being Checo’s fans, and the Tifosi, to my great shame since I am a lifelong Ferrari fan. That being said, there is one fanbase that stands head and shoulders above the others. One that has no problem with openly calling for violence and even murder. And it’s not just one radical fan here or there. There are hundreds of them who do so, with countless others voicing their support of these people instead of condemning them. In fact, in 2022, this fanbase openly called for arson (which would inevitably lead to deaths) against “their own team’s” factory for “sabotaging” their favorite driver who they act as if he is God. The reason I put “their own team” in quotes is because they don’t actually give a damn about the team, and only care about that one driver. Look at the vile and disgusting ways they talk about George Russell. I don’t even really like George, yet it’s sickening how they talk about him. And they talk much the same way about Hannah Schmitz, Max, and Fernando, and their families. This is, inarguably, THE most toxic fanbase, bar none. One guess to which fanbase this is. Here’s a hint, it’s not the “Verstappen tragics” as you called them.
This actually is so right, the Hamilton Fanboys are so much invested in Newey joining Ferrari as if he is like Lebron James always looking for more help and rightfully so but what annoys me is that if he manages to win something, it will be all BECAUSE OF HAMILTON and NOT the TEAM even NEWEY. Like I said its generally like the situation of Lebron James that if he fails to win, its anyone else's fault except for him. That is not how Ferrari works. I also, resent the fact people are thinking long standing Ferrari fans are welcoming of the guy which we ARE NOT and those who think otherwise have their affiliations somewhere else and not at FERRARI.
At risk of sounding like "team Hamilton" I'm going to wade in on the your Michael Schumacher points. He went to Ferrari as the Number 1 driver. This was openly spoken about the media at the time, as a contractual obligation. Irvine and Barcello had not won races before joining Ferrari and were clearly bought in to be compliant number 2 drivers. Granted Michael Schumacher was infinitely better than them, and generally they only won races when Schumacher failed to finish and this is inclusive of when Irvine went for the title challenge as Michael Schumacher broke his leg in Silverstone that year. On the few times they did get ahead of Schumacher on merit they were told to move over buy the team. Therefore saying that Michael Schumacher was the stronger driver than Lewis Hamilton, I would say is a controversial opinion being that throughout most of his career Hamilton actually had to fight against his teammates with the decision to favour him came towards the end of the season when it was mathematically impossible for his teammate to win the title. With the exception of Kovlinen and an overly compliant Bottas Hamilton's team mates were pretty strong contenders. Schumacher was in his first stint in F1 never had a championship contender as a team mate, with the exception of Nelson piquet who was at the end of his career. Also if you ask me the GOATS of f1 are either Fangio or Clark. But then thats probably me looking at F1 with rose tinted eyes in the same way the people who didnt watch F1 in the 80s and 90s look at F1 today.
Those are semi fair points although Lewis was favoured over Alonso, and regardless of Schumacher’s unequivocal number one status he overwhelmingly deserved that. Outqualifying Irvine on his first race back by a second exemplifies that. I can count the amount of races where Barrichello challenged him on one hand. Lewis wasn’t as dominant and thus didn’t get such unrelenting support. Almost all the goats were mostly number 1 drivers too
Bottas may disagree, both had team orders backing them all the way. Which is F1 tactics normally. The 1 season LH had to fight his teammate he lost. A useless debate as I believe the true GOAT is our current champion. Schumi went to Ferrari when they sucked, I doubt Lewis can turn around a team he has yet to prove that. Bc of this I rate him below Schumi, 3rd best of all time. I have Senna 4th, bc he just was not afforded the time.
@@Niex_Knox fair Lewis did have is lucky troughout his carrer but if he wins with ferrari then the debate is over for schumacher, alonso or senna fans because if it that happens, that means everywhere lewis goes the team wins.
@@Niex_Knox Hamilton lost to Rosberg in 2016 due to dreadful bad luck, significantly worse than Rosberg by a massive margin. If not that for, Rosberg would not have beaten Hamilton.
If he's going to Ferrari because he's been given the nod that their car will be untouchable, as per Mercedes, I'm tuning out. Couldn't handle the world's least likeable sportsman being granted the best car for 90% of his career.
@@ang3lic07 Oh give it a bloody rest, you are making it out that lewis is only talented black racing driver.. We get it you want to blame EVERYTHING on racism.. that is the normal for a TYT viewer
@@max08160 Probably the language barrier in your case that's clouding your judgement, while others are simply a bad judge of character. He's a smarmy little creep, and most of us in the UK know it.
Not enough credit given to LHs consistency: Records for points total, poles and race victories with 7 titles during a 17 yr career and he's STILL rated 'desirable' by all the top teams. And don't forget, if it wasnt for his early inexperience in 2007, some Roseberg favouritism in 2016 and the Masi brainfart in '21, he would already be 10x WC and the GOAT question would be pointless. A fan who cared enough to create a counter-vid, could easily find stats and evidence to say LH should be a 12x WC. What other driver in history could you make such an outrageous (but arguable) claim for? ...12 titles!🤔
Records nowadays are inflated by numbers of starts, bulletproof reliability and constantly being in dominant cars. Even with that Lewis has lost on merit to three of his six teammates at one point or another. Lewis lost 07 by triggering the proper civil war with Alonso by not honouring the gentleman’s agreement, in 2016 Rosberg wasn’t favoured that’s just a lie and in 2021 Lewis’s bad luck in Abu Dhabi can easily be countered by Silverstone and Baku where he firstly took max out then in Baku failed to capitalise on bad luck for max. The only other season he was remotely close to the title was 2010 so whoever said he could be a 12x champion is huffing tons of copium. No one else can say they could’ve been an 11 time champion because no one else in F1 history was in a top car for that long. Schumacher had nine seasons in a championship potential car, Prost had seven, Senna had four, Lauda had four, Fangio had six. Drivers in the past spent a LOT less time at the top compared to today. Stats have been inflated in recent years with advances in reliability and races per season so comparisons based purely on number of race wins or poles must be done so on a percentage compared to race starts basis.
You made some good points but a lot of what you said is subjective. You’re right about not comparing eras. However these facts remain: Best driver gets the best car and Lewis has been/was the best driver for a very long time. No other driver in history has shown that level of consistency for such a long period. Also he does it clean, yeah he can be ruthless but he is fair….ask the other drivers. Minute margins and luck in F1, you can’t deny he was unlucky in 2007…missing out by 1 pt in his rookie season against a dbl WC in Alonso who was ruthless against his teammate from the start, even before the team orders drama. In 2016 his car let him down multiple times and Nico picked up the pieces. None of his other team mates have beaten him and then won the WC. In 2010 and 2011 LH had some serious offtrack drama. Plus Ferrari had a great car. In 2021 Max was underpenalised for his desperate and dangerous driving that later led to rule changes. Lewis was barely at fault at Silverston. Abu Dhabi was inarguably illegal and should’ve been overturned. I still don’t why Merc settled for Masi’s firing and some rule tweaks to rectify an obvious breach of the rules. It didn’t make sense to allow only the drivers separating the 2 contenders to be overtaken plus th safety car came in earlier than the rules specify. 12 WCs might be over doing it but saying he should have 9 is difficult to argue against and 11 can be argued with only a small portion of biased analysis, that says alot by itself.
@PaulWilliams-pq2cp 2007 he was unlucky yes, but 2010 and 11 were his own fault. Regardless of what was happening off track that doesn’t excuse his performances, especially 2011. As I said in the video in terms of major mishaps in the races that can be measured in 2016 Nico lost more points from Monaco and Canada compared to just sepang and won fair and square. 2021 while Abu Dhabi had bad decision making, Lewis had several points elsewhere to gain ground, e.g Baku where he missed 25 points, and took 25 points away from max in Silverstone. Objectively he was lucky to get to Abu Dhabi given the circumstances and if you analysed 2021 the same way you seem to want to do 2016 max comes out on top. Also yes it’s crazy that with some tweaks he could’ve been an 11x champion but again as I said no other driver has been in that many championship winning cars. Schumi gets closest with nine but after that it’s a crapshoot between Fangio, senna and Prost on 4-6. You’re praising Lewis for being top of a statistic that doesn’t actually mean anything given his career at the top has lasted longer than everyone else in terms of being in a top car, and even despite having that many chances he doesn’t exactly run away in the stats department. Same championships as Schumacher. Only ten more wins despite 2 more championship potential seasons and more races in those seasons. He doesn’t have the ruthless destructive consistency of Schumacher and Verstappen in modern times, he’s only won won the cards were stacked in his favour entirely with no blips. A seven time champion should be able to beat Jenson Button even if he’s going through on track stuff. A seven time champion should never lose to Nico Rosberg even if he isn’t treated as a second driver. Same with George Russell. The reason the likes of Schumacher command absolute number one driver status is because they are the faster driver 99% of the time. Against the likes of button, Rosberg and Russell Lewis has proved he’s not insurmountable. That’s why for me he isn’t and can’t be in the conversation for GOAT status. He’s a very glorified Damon Hill, out of the world on his day but otherwise retracts back to a lower level of performance
@@nedzosf1gridboxAs I said in another comment I would love to have a genuine discussion with you too leave out quite some details and also contradict your claim in the beginning of the video of 'not being biased'. That's another topic but also one I'm more than happy to explain if you'd like to discuss this topic in real depth with lots of time investment!
Finding a GOAT F1 driver is a futile journey. Most candidates are only dominate for an rules era and mysteriously drop off when they have to adjust to a different ruleset that doesn't favour them. The only GOATS in F1 that I'll acknowledge are Adrian Newey, Charlie Whiting, and Murray Walker.
Imagine basing an argument on the stupidity of "he has the best car" as if anyone can get into the car. By that logic, Logan Sergeant should be able to win a world championship in a Red Bull, Lance Stroll in a Mercedes, and Zhou in a McLaren. To be in the best car you have to be the best driver. Sergio Perez is a great example of how limited your insight is on what makes someone a GOAT. If it was all car Sergio and Max should be fighting for the championship up till the last race. They do not.
Different from other sports, F1 is so dependable on the machine and timing to be on the right place and the right time that a discussion is worthless. I gave up on these talks years ago. I just enjoy the races and the cars and the best drivers of their period. If you have a case to be the GOAT on F1, it means you and your management did the job well, that's the best it can be said.
Totally agree, as a seven times world champion he should at least won one race in the car that ended second in the constructors championship! Certainly if you count that the difference between teams is smaller than ever. Redbull was not nearly as dominant in 2023 as Mercedes was in 2019 and 2020.
@@joaopedrogoncalves3861 name another constructor who ended second in the championship without one of their drivers win one race! See what my point is!
@@F1Guy-GuyOh man... You're one of the reasons why I hate being a Lewis Hamilton fan sometimes... The fact that you call him 'Jimmy nobody' either shows complete stupidity, arrogance or ignorance. Even more supported by the fact you say that there is no argument to be held about Lewis being 'the GOAT'! If it weren't worth an argument you'd easily win the argument in less than 5 minutes but that's so far from true when comparing 'GOATs' especially when it comes to the likes of comparison with Jim Clark, Prost, Fangio, Senna and Schumacher. Those 6 could be switched either way with the smallest differences between them and all variants of ranking them would be completely valid. Purely relying on records is the most stupid way of saying someone is 'The GOAT'... And maybe you'd be surprised how many records or which SPECIFIC records all of the previously mentioned ones still hold to this day!
@@OhDearTheBier There are no Goats as there's only one room for one Goat and that GOAT is a bloody black Goat by the name of Sir Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton 44 so go smoke that on your pipe
A good analysis without disrespecting the driver but I disagree with some of the points. I find it difficult to believe that McLaren started the season favouring Hamilton as he was a rookie. They probably believed that Hamilton would be a good no.2 and when he started beating Alonso, gave him preferential treatment. I think it’s like Vettel and Leclerc in 2019. JB and Rosberg were not push over drivers. Button’s 2009 season was underrated as the Brawn wasn’t good in the 2nd part of the season. Also he only got beaten once by both. I think it’s difficult to decide a GOAT in F1 because eras change but Hamilton is the greatest of his era.
Great video and all of the other ones I have watched so far are equal. From someone who’s been watching F1 since 1995, I find your content to be engaging, well narrated and with good analysis as foundation. You deserve a lot more views and subscribers and I hope you get there soon
I've been to over 80 GP since 1982. Of all of the seasons, 1985 was my best experience. I went to 5 that year. Alesi in Canada was a banger. We had front row seats, 4th on the grid. I started a Happy Birthday chant and had the entire grandstand singing it to Jean. He tossed his gloves over the fence to me. He would win that day.
There is a trend of recency bias and almost pathological loyalty that leaves so many fans insisting that whomever is flavour of the month is the greatest and who react irrationally when you suggest they are not. Saying Sir Lewis Hamilton is not the best of all time, does nothing to take away from his achievements or diminish his skill in any way. It simply says there may be a handful of drivers who are better. For me Lewis Hamilton's claim to GOAT status fails simply because he was beaten by Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button as team mates. Both were very skilled drivers but neither has a claim to GOAT status or legend status and yet both were able to beat Sir Lewis in the same machinery. I cannot see Alain Prost or Jim Clark being beaten by them in equal machinery. Lewis fans need to calm down, their hero is an all time great, he has done quite a lot for raising issues of racial awareness which not many drivers previously have done and has statistically set a standard that may never be matched and his fans should celebrate the range of positives rather than being personally offended when he is not ranked the GOAT. Simply watch the 1993 European Grand Prix at Donnington and you will see why he is not the GOAT.
that's a valid point. But then again, Schumacher for example, was the clear number one on his teams from the very beginning and never had competition from his team mates, until that return with Mercedes that doesn't really matter. What's better, to never have competition or to lose a couple of times to quality drivers?
@@bizarroeddie1 Your paint is valid, but for the fact that Schumacher is not the GOAT either and critiquing him does not unfortunately elevate Hamilton any further up the pecking order. Senna, Prost and Jim Clark all raced against and beat very strong team mates without a clear number 1 status. They are all ahead of Hamilton because they were equally as fast when young but less error prone and far less prone to mental disintegration because of issues outside of the car. They all fought as hard for a 6th place finish as they did for a win while Hamilton is prone to losing interest when he is not winning. Simply put in the pantheon of greats, Hamilton was prone to mistakes for the first part of his career, he is not as mentally tough as the greats and he has been beaten by drivers who are not all time greats in the same machinery. He will almost certainly remain an all time great forever, but those deficiencies mean he Is not the GOAT. Senna, Prost Clarke, Fangio, Stewart and maybe Lauda had less deficiencies and are therefore above him. None of them would have lost a championship to a driver of Rosberg's calibre. Please do not take this as an attack on Hamilton, there have been more than 775 F1 drivers in history and he is comfortably within the top 10 of all time, he has done more for raising issues of racism than anyone else associated with F1 and he has dominated his era through skill not simply luck. Denying him the GOAT label does not in any way take away from his abilities or success and he has achieved greatness.
@@MrCarrera28 dude i just read the first paragraph, didnt need to read the rest, it doesnt matter. I just pointed that everyone has their own view of these things. One can say he never lost to a team mate and the other cant.
It's best to stay away from the GOAT debate as it is impossible to be unbiased in the argument. I like the idea of an un-numbered top 5 with anybody who asks whose the best told to #@$% off.
That is one fiery video. Fact remains true though that Lewis had to have high trust in his car to showcase his own abilities. In that sense I guess the guy is extraordinarily talented but in contrast to a Schumi not a monster under your bed. Schumi was quick wherever he was and mainly trusted himself. Not going into '22 and '23 all that much since up against Verstappen with the zero-pod Mercedes? Nobody would have won that. But losing to Rosberg (no WDC till that point and retired after, so you can't even call him a WDC-teammate) and Button (who Lewis did beat the year after) is pretty lackluster. Anyone trying to prop up either Rosberg or Button perhaps does so implicitly to better the view of performance of Lewis as well. As for next year. Well, any year is "our year" so we will be champions in '25. Seriously though, I think that what you saw in Canada (lacking the speed) could easily be an ominous sign for the future. And whilst Lewis might not have lost much of his touch, this group that does little else than sim-racing racks up experience to a huge degree and all of them are still very close to their absolute peak in performance levels. So whilst I think he is still on it he might just get blown out of the water by some 24-year old that has the natural ability of a George or a Charles.
@@hamadouotamsi4938 first of all it’s 105. Bro added one in there and thought we wouldn’t notice. Secondly, isn’t it funny that now he has the fastest/joint fastest car he can win again? Not only that but it takes several strategy blunders from other teams in Silverstone and a disqualification in Spa where they had the fastest car by a margin all weekend
To be the GOAT you have to win chanpionships in other series(e.g. Surtees,Mansell); win a championship in a team you created from scratch(Brabham); win a championship without even competeing in the later races (Rindt); win a championship then get killed whilst still in your prime (Clark,Senna,Rindt).....If 21st century champs had competed in the sixties,they woudn't have achieved so much: fewer races and half of them would have been killed.
@@robertmunning to be fair only Ascari, Clark, Rindt, and Senna died while being champions still competing in F1. Fast drivers dying might have been more common than nowadays but it wasn’t the norm, mostly one every year or twi
100% he is the best. I’ve watched Senna from the mid 1980’s, the Schumacher era and then Lewis and 100% he is the best. He isn’t like the others - he is stand alone and different to every other top driver.
@@nedzosf1gridbox and who is your best. Make a video about him and Lewis. Don't compare someone's accomplishment with accomplishments from several drivers, unfair
George used Lewis data, which is why he was able to reach pole. Lewis was the fastest in Practice 3 in Canada, and no other driver came close. When it came to qualifying, Mercedes turned down Lewis' car. This is what Jacques Villeneuve asked Toto Wolffman about. If Mercedes is sabotaging Lewis, how can he compete with George? Lewis engineer stated that soft and hard tyres were available on Sky TV. Lewis preferred soft tyres, but the engineer demanded Lewis use the slower hard tyres. Mercedes did this so Lewis would not compete with George. Lewis was 22 years old when he was a rookie, and he also won the Formula Two title. 😮😮😮
George used Lewis’s data to get pole, so why didn’t Lewis use his own data and/or George’s? He was fastest in practice, so what? Are you going to hand some of Lewis’s titles to Valtteri, as he was often quicker than Lewis in practice? 95% of the time strategists can see the bigger picture better than the drivers. Lewis himself his performance in Canada was shocking. Of all the Lewis hills to die on you chose this one 😂
Can anyone point to a champion with a bad car ? Old regs teams could spend there way out new regs if you choose wrong your in a pickle an you can't throw money to solve the problem. A driver skill will only get you so far in F1 . You must have a open mind when comparing any F1 driver the cars are not Equal never have been . It takes 2 to win the championship. OK good point russell won in 22 an won first this year. The merc is the 4th best car on the circuit 3rd at best it shouldn't even be winning races from 22 to now they are so far behind yet the 2 drivers are getting the best out of a turd . You may not see him as the Goat but most of F1 does so 🤷
Haha, a car that got a front row lockout and a win two races ago is “3rd at best”? Nice joke. It’s probably joint second best. And to answer your question several drivers have won titles in the non fastest car. Mike Hawthorn in 1958, Emerson Fittipaldi in 1973, James Hunt in 1976, Keke Rosberg in 1982 (his car was fifth fastest on the longer tracks), Nelson Piquet in 1983, Alain Prost in 1986, Michael Schumacher in 1994 and 95, and Verstappen in 2021. Several other drivers had no problem winning when the chips were down, but Lewis can’t. When the McLaren was bad in the first half of 2009 he was equalled by and consistently lost out to Heikki Kovalainen. He lost out to Jenson button in 2011 by a massive margin, and Button outscored Lewis points wise in their time as teammates. Nico matched Lewis in 2014 and beat him in 2016, and George has had the upper hand since 2022. If you discount the seasons he had a subordinate number 2 driver in Valtteri Bottas, he only had a decent upper hand on his teammate in 3 of his 13 seasons in F1, those being Kovalainen in 2008, Button in 2012 and Rosberg in 2015. All of those drivers he lost to at certain points and 4 of his six teammates have beaten him in the points standings. If you take the other legends and GOAT’s (Fangio, Clark, Senna, Prost etc), and add up the times they lost to teammates that weren’t also GOAT status, the only driver in the top 10 to lose to a lower calibre teammate on merit was Niki Lauda in 1982-3 against John Watson. Lewis triples that number on his own. For a guy who’s won so much, he’s lost a heck of a lot too. He’s only won 7 out of the 11 championship potential cars he’s been in, and even the likes of Alain Prost have a similar percentage record despite going up against far stronger competitors in the same machinery.
For me, the GOAT conversation is so subjective that I can't give a definite answer, or even a ranking like you have done, I think it would chop and change depending on how I feel on the day. There are just too many variables to compare and contrast between all the different drivers from different eras who are considered to be in the conversation. And there are many worthy candidates from the decades. My personal opinion is that you can have the best car on the grid, but it's up to the driver to get the most out of it and they almost always do. The fact is that the best drivers will more often than not be in the best cars, and will have the team behind them. That'll always skew things at least a little bit. I think that there have been several times during Hamilton's win drought from Saudi Arabia 2021 up to now when he won at Silverstone today, in which he has put in great drives and still shown how good he is. Has he always got the most out of these difficult Mercedes cars? No, definitely not, and I can admit and accept that as a Hamilton fan. Does that lessen his case to be the GOAT? Depends on your opinion, I guess. For me, he is up there. Maybe not be THE greatest, but he's definitely worthy of being in the conversation.
"...a guy who should never have got [a world championship] in the first place like Nico Rosberg"? Are you smoking? Or are you just using your misinterpreted/ill-informed opinion of Rosberg to prove your point about Hamilton? Maybe you really are saying that Hamilton was spectacularly crap in 2016?
Look at Rosberg’s career before 2013. He got outscored by Webber as a rookie, was better than Kazuki Nakajima (well done), and slightly better than a 41-43 year old Schumacher. He hadn’t shown any championship potential as he didn’t have a significant upper hand on Webber nor Michael, yet he was equal to or better than Lewis 3 years out of 4. It’s a mix of Hamilton being overrated and Rosberg coming of age, but nonetheless no driver has won their first championship later than Nico apart from Nigel Mansell, who had been in contention for six years beforehand. Rosberg came out the blue to compete against Hamilton even when his early career suggested that wouldn’t happen. That’s what I was trying to say
*In my eyes, Fangio will always be the GOAT.* Senna, Prost, Lauda, Clark, Schumi, Vettel, Alonso, Lewis & even Verstappen will always be great drivers but they had moments where they were outperformed by a teammate and moments with silly mistakes. Fangio didn't had these. He only had 7 seasons in F1 and won 5 of them, with the other 2 becoming runner-up. His last 3 races were bad but his car was really bad and was 4 years old. He got a last fastest lap in that old car though. To me the biggest regret I have with F1 is that there is so much British bias with the drivers & commentary. I really wish we see more nationalities within Sky Sports or the official F1 Live. This is also why many people, including myself, mute the F1 TV broadcast.
Sadly. Whether you agree or disagree like or dislike Britain is the home of F1 and have more teams more championships both driver and constructor. So a little bias is acceptable The truth is SLH is the Goat of his era MS was the greatest of his. MV will be the greatest of his as far an overall GOAT it is just impossible to compare the different time the different machinery even tracks so given any comparison can only be on current times and records held at the moment that gies to SLH
@@F1SCR007 Sorry but to me being the home of F1 doesn't give you the rights to give bias over other drivers when the commentary is broadcasted worldwide. If you do it for local television I'm fine with it but people from other continents are literally sick of it and I'm in the same boat as them. LH is no GOAT and will never be, 2022 & 2023 prove that. Max is a greater driver than LH then in that logic because he won 10 races while his car was the 3rd & 2nd best on the grid. I also stated that Fangio is the GOAT, not Verstappen. In 7 seasons (2007-2013) LH would only claim 1 title, meanwhile Fangio got 5.
@@BoyFromBelgium99 Guess. You just had a need to rant and read nothing of what i wrote. Your only and main objective was to belittle SLH. sad times indeed I am pretty sure that SLH has SEVEN therefore invalidating you fangio five Do yourself a favour. Read what i wrote again engage your brain before your mouth and adjust your reply
@F1SCR007 Fangio only had SIX attempts at a title since we’re randomly adding full caps to WORDS. Lewis has won 7 out of 11 titles where he had the best or joint best car. That’s 63% of the time. Fangio has an 83% ratio which would’ve been 100% if not for bad reliability. Schumacher has 81% (7 from 9). Clark has 100% (2 from 2 where he didn’t get taken out by his rivals teammates or have awful reliability. Even prost who was fighting against senna and Lauda got 66% (4 from 6). Lewis got a lower percentage than Prost with much worse teammates. Considering F1 careers generally last longer now than they ever did before percentages are key to not completely omitting older drivers due to factors they couldn’t control. If you did every single race from the inception of the F1 world championship in 1950, you would have to wait until the 1980 Canadian Grand Prix to match Lewis’s starts. That’s why the older drivers have less numbers. Because they had less races, not because of lack of ability
I've been to over 80 GP since 82. Most of them in the 80s and 90s. There was something really amazing about watching Senna live. Whenever he came on the track in the practice sessions, the entire crowd went silent. It didn't matter what country you were in. He was a god to everyone back then.
I disagree not on the goat thing (for me its Prost) but the Schumi comparisons when he literally had it in his contract that his teamates were a no.2 and couldn't even test as much as him or even have the spare care set up as they want kinda defeats the teamate argument. I can see though were you're coming from.
Lewis was obviously favoured over Alonso and didn’t need it with Nico or George. Since most of his career came in the non testing era I don’t know how it would’ve applied had he had lots of testing
Not to forget that Schumacher was a liar, a cheater and a sore loser willing to endanger his opponents, who doesn’t deserve his two first F1 titles because Benneton was cheating with illegal fuel, hidden antislip system, illegal flat bottom … Schumacher was not very good to manage real pressure from an opponent and I would say that we can summarize him with these two proverbs: The end justifies the means. A triumph without peril, brings no glory. I concur, Fangio, Prost and Clark are great, and since there are always exceptions to the rules, I would even put Gilles Villeneuve in that small circle!
Im my opinion, the GOAT debate is futile cause it's just nigh impossible to compare different eras of F1. There are way more races nowadays and reliability is mostly a non issue, as are crashes, which can inflate the stats. On the other hand, the ceiling is unimaginally high nowadays, you have to be a top athlete, have lods of money, be at the right spot at the right time and are way more dependant on the car and crew. F1 even back in the 80es was a different world, let alone the 50s to 70s. It also has goten incredibly toxic. Just saying you think "xy isn't the goat for me" will have entire armies of Team LH, Max, Senna or whoever fans coming after you for dearing to disrespect their goat, even if said driver still is easily top 5 material. I rather prefer ranking drivers as best of their eras, going with that, I think it, something like: -Nuvolari (pre F1 era) - Fangio (50es, honorable mention to Ascari and Moss) - Clark (60es, honorable mention to Surtees and Graham Hill) - Steward (late 60es/early 70es) - Lauda (70es) - Prost (80es, honorable mention to Piquet) - Senna (late 80es/early 90es) - Schummacher (90es/00nds, honorable mention to Häkkinnen and Alonso) - Hamilton (10s, honorable mention to Vettel) - Verstappen (20es) Pick your poison, as I said, I think it's nearly impossible to compare different eras.
Fair enough, I do a similar thing I just rank all eras equally and the drivers in them compared to those around them. For example Fangio, Clark and Schumacher were levels above every other driver of their era for their entire career. Prost and senna had a similar level while Lewis didn’t if you get me
@@nedzosf1gridbox I can definitely see that. I originally had a paragraph that outlined that I feel like Lewis does lack that certain umpf that really puts him leagues above the rest. Other goat candidates were unbeatable in the best car and/or dragged underpowered cars into championship battles. We haven't really seem the same from Lewis. But I left it out because I figured it might contradict the argument I tried to make somewhat. I think the way Lewis' Ferrari stint goes will ultimately decide how I rate him. If he's going to be competitive with a strong, but not overpowered car and with Leclerc as teammate, good for him. But if Newey indeed is going to Ferrari and creates another spaceship 3 seconds faster than the rest, and Ferrari sacrifices their starboy for him, it certainly wont help his case.
@@tonlit4640 not a Hamilton fan but Verstappen fans are the stereotypical racist pvv supporters so yeah they take the cake over the hysterical Hamilton fanboys.
To be fair Fangio had an abnormally high for that era finishing rate as he reached the chequered flag in 86% of races he entered, no other notable 50s driver got above 80, I think the next highest is Gonzalez
@@nedzosf1gridboxalso, Fangio won 5 titles in 4 DIFFERENT TEAMS, that’s something that i think we will never see again. Also, Prost is my underrated goat, the guy beat the likes of Senna, Mansell, Lauda and Hill (not that great, but a champion nonetheless), and only lose to them in very close fashion.
Lot of great takes. Some questionable like only looking at Brazil in 22, as then you could look at Singapore 23 with the Ferrari guys to say Sainz was better that year. Or lost on points during time as teammates to JB, was the same with Ocon beating Alonso over their 2 years. Alonso still clearly better. And Bottas too was actually a good driver especially on his day, but Lewis had that extra pace and consistency too which greats have. Ultimately there isn’t really a GOAT. Can’t compare eras with difference in cars. Great video tho. Very analytical, impartial and respectful above all 👍
Max got 3 championships from 2. And TBF to Prost, he got screwed in '88, because despite Senna getting preferential treatment, he did score more points, but was screwed by an extremely asinine points system. Really Prost was 5 of 7.
Saiye Rugara you said you ranked Hamilton 3rd and Vettel 6th because you based on achievement well mine I based it on their prime which is the reason why I ranked Vettel and Raikkonen are so high and I put them ahead of Hamilton and Alonso.
Wow, too many intentional omissions to take this half-baked "analysis" seriously. Example, fails to mention how Verstappen crashed into him in Brazil 22 knocking hin down to p8 only to battle back in a dmaged vehicle to finish p2 behind Russell. 2023 Hamilton finished p3 in w14 rust bucket in the wdc to 2 red bull drivers in the most dominant car ever. Where was Alonso, Russell, Leclare, etc....😂 The mere fact that so many people dedicate so much time dissecting almost 2 decades worth Hamiltons career to highlight every little misstep he's had and the video isnt even 20 minutes long says it all. Even this past race Canada 2024 he started p7 and still had the best race pace in the field to finish p4 whereas Alonso started ahead of him in p6 and is still on the track leading another DRS train. These salty "analyst" are not even entertaining any more. Cant wait for you to apply the same level of scrutiny and detail to any of the other so called greats over the span of their careers.
Also forgot to mention the 2018 Ferrari cheat season with the illegal fuel flows, the 2021 FIA crippling of the Mercedes rear floor to ensure RB had a competitive edge. The Engine freeze that has effectively given RB free reign for the past 4 years, the dominant RB where Seb Vettel won 4 championships in a row, from 2010 to 2013. The 2021 Brazil race where Hamilton started the sprint from the back of the grid and still won the race on Sunday. (Ok, he had a rocket engine). In the 2016 failure of a season, Hamilton had 12 pole positions, which is all max could manage in 2023 with the most dominant car in the history of the sport. Hamilton has converted more than he has failed, when he has the opportunity. Hence the stats. If I was to be critical of Hamilton, he is often crap at setting the car up, but can adapt to driving at a very decent pace with the crap set up. He is very slow at getting on the pace in most seasons but is one of the strongest finishers in the history of the sport. If the car is not capable of a win and has poor handling, his mind is usually not in the game, so he will be off the pace. (Happened in the Mclaren and now the Mercedes) If the car feels good, he will usually be one of the fastest on the track. The good things about Hamilton. He is still one of the fastest men in the sport and he is more than a decade older than most of his competitors. (The age exception being Alonso). He is still in good physical condition. He has one of the highest race finish percentages in the history of the sport, still averaging above 90% after 341 race starts. If the Ferrari is anywhere near the RB at the end of the season, I am quite sure Hamilton will be capable of giving Max a hard time in 2025.
@@jjhatch69 Yes, this is the type of objective analysis given the title of this video. So many great points and proves that Hamilton isnt perfect but he has proven to be one of the best certainly in the past 20 years. Every era has 1-2 drivers that can be called the GOAT but the fluid hypocritical application of criteria when Hamilton enters the debate shows how desperately some will dig to disprove what has been obvious for a decade now. Lewis is the GOAT or at minimum on that very short list across any era.
I failed to mention the crash between max and lewis in Brazil because surely the “goat” can stay ahead of his teammate and not get involved in such crashes in the first place. The 2023 merc was not a rust bucket, it was the second fastest car across the season. Where were Alonso, Russell and Leclerc? Alonso was getting podiums when Lewis wasn’t at the start of the season before his car fell off. George was churning out the stats I mentioned. Leclerc was in a Ferrari team that runs around like headless chickens. Also apart from Alonso none of the three you mentioned are anywhere near goat status so why are you mentioning them in the same vein as Lewis? Why not compare him to the other champion on the grid apart from Alonso, that being Max. Oh wait, that’s because he has no problem beating Perez who before going there was a fantastic upper midfield p driver, meanwhile Lewis can’t. And don’t talk about preferential treatment because a guy coming off the back of 6 titles and one of the closest battles in recent history won’t be equal in driver status to his new teammate. Also you talk about the video length, I got 5 minutes in before I moved away from 2007 so I purposely skimmed over or didn’t explain parts afterwards as deeply which actually did Lewis a favour. Would you have preferred me to talk about him lying is the stewards In Melbourne 09 in excruciating detail, or the incidents with massa in 2011? Or the various incidents with Rosberg and Max. I actually did him better than I could’ve and you still complain
Funny how you mention at the start those cars having regulation changes or rule breaks to make other teams more competitive because even with those in 2018 Mercedes had a comfortable lead over Ferrari and 2018, and in 2021 were still joint quickest with Red Bull even despite rule changes. That rule change created the closest title fight between non teammates in nearly a decade so I think it was good. Also merc’s fault for not developing a solution around a new rule rather than just plodding along. Also you mention finishing percentages. Lewis has had the best cars in the best reliability era culminating in him retiring from on average one race per season. Not his fault since he can’t change the hand he’s dealt but it’s not like he created his good finishing rate himself
@@nedzosf1gridbox Reliability does have a big impact on the finishing percentage, so does binning the car. Hamilton has only ever driven Mercedes engine cars, which also contributes to the high finish percentage. Prior to 2021 max had more DNF's in 4 seasons than Hamilton had in 14 seasons. Part of this was that awful Renault engine as well as the continued development of what was at the time, an awful Honda engine. The other part was max's high rate of collisions, hence the Crashtappen tag. Midfield driving does add to the crash tally. So does diving into gaps that are not there. Max was pulled in and lectured by Charlie whiting for his bad driving and Whiting got so fed up with max, he changed the rules in the braking zone, just to kerb max's behaviour. (A rule he still breaks in most seasons if he is not disappearing off into the sunset). The 2018 season was very competitive with both Ferrari's, until the FIA discovered the fuel flow irregularity, highlighted by RB by the way. Once the fuel flow was corrected (in secret at the time), Mercedes disappeared into the sunset. I agree with the rule changes to knobble Mercedes. We all want to see competitive racing, but it was RB who were suggesting what was needed to slow down the Mercedes to the FIA and the FIA listened. The funny thing is all teams agreed to the rule changes until they realized who gained the most from it. Cutting the rear floor screwed the low rake cars and aided the high rake cars. Only RB cars had a high rake. A master stroke by Newey. In 2021 Mercedes still managed to turn things around by mid-season, by adapting a higher rake and using the collapsable heave suspension to stall the diffuser at high speed. The swing back towards Mercedes led to the Massi debacle at the end of the 2021 season. We all know Bottas was average, but he was absolutely nowhere in 2021, whilst Hamilton was competitive. Newey stated that the 2021 RB was faster than the Mercedes and it was only Hamilton that was the difference. A tip of the hat from the goat of F1 engineering. (You missed that from your commentary). If you are ruthless, you say the Baku mistake cost Hamilton the championship and if you are more of a rules-based analyst, you would say Massi ultimately cost Hamilton the championship. RB requested the heave suspension be removed for the 2022 new cars and all teams agreed with the exception of Renault and Mercedes. Had the ground effect cars been allowed to use the heave suspension, it is unlikely Mercedes would have gained an advantage, but it is something RB were unwilling to bet on. RB could not figure out the heave suspension, so getting it banned was a major achievement. As it happens, Mercedes really did not come into the 2022 season with a great car and continue going in the wrong direction. With the competitive advantage swinging too far towards RB, the FIA will be attempting to knobble them in the next few seasons and by the sound of things, the 2026 RB engine is not even close to the Ferrari or Mercedes version, so RB are trying to get a stay of execution for the 2026 rule changes. Something the FIA are unlikely to do. There are nuances to every season. It is never black or white and this is something that is missing from your arguments on Hamilton. The other argument that is missing, is the financial cap. The big teams could spend their way into competitiveness in all seasons prior to the last 3. This has also led to RB keeping and maintaining an advantage over the rest of the field. From an engineering perspective I have been very impressed with how Mclaren have adapted to these rule changes in the last 12 months. An example that Mercedes should have followed.
I am a big Sir Lewis fan, but I think you may be right. But he is still in great company no matter. I think 2025 AD will potentially tell us a lot more.
I would say most of your points are somewhat valid, but I would say its a tad outrageous to say hes not close. I personally don't think he is the outright GOAT (Senna for me) either but I wouldn't be upset if people say he is, same with Schumi and Senna. Drives like Turkey 2020 and Silverstone 2008 are some of the best in the sports history and the Singapore 2018 Quali was a memory i still have to this day. Every driver who is called the GOAT is being called that for a reason and although Lewis has had a rocky career at points due to him having the arguably the highest highs in the sport and some lows that weren't seen from Schumacher or Senna. For me its always so difficult to place drivers because of different scenarios and car performances. Imo i wouldn't say hes the GOAT but to say he isn't close is a tad too extreme, but everyone is entitled to an opinion and so fair enough. I'm not Team LH before anyone says, I bloody hate both Team LH and Toxic max fans equally, they ruin the fun of the sport
I appreciate your points about toxicity but with the likes of Schumi and senna I can list off dozens of great performances. With Lewis that list is much shorter. He’s like Damon hill in the case of either winning amazingly or losing badly. This is why I can’t put him in the debate. Consistency is key for me
@@nedzosf1gridbox It is a strange case and I do respect your opinion but I would say Lewis's main weakness is adaptation more so then consistency, He struggles to adapt to new challenges quickly, example being that he has been consistently weak at the start of the seasons but by midway through he has bolted ahead of everyone else. This is the main reason he lost the championship to Nico in 2016 as he only recorded his 1st win in Monaco. I think he has had two stages of his career so clear that he seems like a different driver in both. I'd disagree with you saying that 2015 is his prime year as I would agree that it was the turning point for the 2nd stage but 2018 was an absolutely immense year that separated the talent of Hamilton against Vettel, Ferrari having the faster car for a decent chunk of the year yet lewis seemed unstoppable, not putting a foot wrong all season. I'd go as far to say that is a difficult season to beat for any driver. Imo the rough top 5 would be: Senna, Schumi, Hamilton, Prost, Clark. The reason for putting Lewis at 3 is because imo he has had the highest highs but the lowest lows out of these lot as so imo fits down the middle. Again I respect your opinions and especially on the 2021 season and I do hope Lewis does well at Ferrari as I want a good championship battle again. In conclusion, I would say he is inconsistent and consistant at the same time as he had periods of consistency (2017-20) then a period of inconsistency (2014-16). The real answer will differ from person to person but I just feel its harsh putting him below top 5. I just beg for a championship fight in the next few seasons😂😂
Top 4 car, midfield car, or bad car doesn't matter . What matter is what kind driver caliber you up against in a team either he is an all-time great, podium contender, ex-champion, young unproven pretender, a regular point score, a Saturday man only, and so on.
You said that Rosberg was his 1st worthy teammate.. Now was he worthy ? Yes but was he is 1st ( as said ) worthy ? See to me he 2 or guys that I would consider worthy .. Alonso ( 2 WDC’s ) Jenson Button ( 1 WDC ) and Rosberg himself ( 1WDC ) ..
I am not a Lewis Hamilton fan nor do I think Lewis Hamilton is the greatest, I rank Schumacher and Alonso both higher than him. However to act like he isn't close to them or in the conversation for greatest to ever do it is ridiculous. You can easily make the argument that he's in the top 3. The entire basis of your criticism against Hamilton is his competitiveness against his teammates which is one of the absolute worst metrics to try to use when criticizing Hamilton. Throughout Hamilton's career he has routinely had teammates who were elite championship caliber drivers which is something almost every other all time great hasn't had to consistently deal with. The only other all time greats who had to deal with more competition within their teams were Prost and Senna. However you make it seem like Schumacher had to deal with similarly tough opposition which is just completely false. The only elite drivers Schumacher had to compete with in the same team were a long past his prime Piquet and Nico Rosberg. Rubens Barrichello isn't comparable at all to Jenson Button or Nico Rosberg, Barrichello's skill level was much more similar to a driver like Bottas who Hamilton dominated similarly to how Schumacher dominated Rubens. The only pushover teammates Hamilton has had were Heikki and Valtteri. Hamilton's other teammates like Alonso, Button, Rosberg, and Russell were/are among the best drivers in the eras they competed in. You can't say the same thing at all about Schumacher, which I'm saying as someone who believes Schumacher is better than Hamilton. Hamilton also was either extremely competitive or comprehensively better than every elite driver he has been paired with. You seem to want to diminish the talent of Hamilton's teammates in order to make Hamilton's career look less impressive. Button, Rosberg, and Russell being that competitive with Hamilton just highlights how good they were/are as drivers. There's this ongoing narrative that Russell has gotten the better of Hamilton during his time at Mercedes but this is objectively false. People make a huge deal about Russell narrowly beating Hamilton in the 2022 standings and then completely neglect to mention that Hamilton utterly dominated Russell in 2023 when Russell should have been doing better than he did 2022. Russell isn't a bum either, he's one of the best drivers on the grid and has proven multiple times he is an exceptionally fast driver. A young and in his prime elite driver sometimes getting the better of a close to 40 year old Lewis Hamilton who is clearly no longer in his peak does not say much about anything. You make a big deal about bad years Hamilton has had when he wasn't even in a championship capable car but give no credence to the phenomenal seasons he has had like 2017 and 2018 which rank among the most impressive championship wins ever. You also give no credence to the fact Hamilton has won 7 titles while almost always having to fight with another elite driver in a competitive car. Hamilton's only easy championships were in 2019 and 2020. Most other multi world champions won most of their championships without any serious opposition to overcome. I'd argue Hamilton's championship wins are worth a lot more on average than a lot of other all time greats. You may not like him, I certainly didn't back when he was winning. However he is certainly in the highest tier when it comes to the greatest drivers in the sport's history and I think that's undeniable no matter how annoying him and his fanbase can be.
Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button aren’t elite. Also you say teammate comparisons are awful, yet they are the only empirical ones you can make. You then proceed to base the rest of your argument on Schumacher’s teammates. I did give credence to his great seasons, you just chose not to listen. I said the likes of 2015 were very good. 2017 and 18 weren’t that special like you suggested. The numbers prove Russell has matched or beaten Lewis even in 2023, the qualifying and race gaps prove that. Even if that wasn’t the case, a seven time champion should be a level above every teammate he has, even the other champions. Lewis hasn’t done that consistently. He’s only had a complete measure of his teammate in eight of his 18 seasons. 2007 Alonso was equal, 2009 he only started beating kovalainen consistently when the car got good, proof he can’t perform well when the chips are down. In 2010 Jenson had way more unluckiness yet finished less than 30 points behind. Lewis causes countless incidents in 2011 and blamed most on others wrongly. 2012 he did well given the circumstances. 2013 Nico matched him and took more wins. Took him to a title decider in 2014, Lewis had a great season in 2015, then lost in 2016. He whitewashed Bottas then was equal or worse than Russell since 2022. If you take out the seasons he had with Bottas as a teammate he’s only consistently beaten his teammates if 3 of his 13 seasons. No matter how you look at it that’s not GOAT material at all. Alonso is the only driver he should be near in performance yet at points he was slower than Kovalainen in bad machinery in 09, only beat Jenson on merit once out of three seasons, only beat Rosberg on merit once out of four times, and hasn’t yet beat Russell on merit really. The likes of Schumacher, Fangio, Clark, Lauda, Prost and senna never lost to teammates who were also all time GOATs. Meanwhile Lewis only had one properly world class teammate and has a worse record than all of them. Empirically and statistically he’s not in the conversation because he’s too inconsistent. Silverstone 2008 is pretty much the only race from his career where I go “Wow, that was a GOAT worthy drive”. Meanwhile every other driver in the conversation has multiple examples.
@@nedzosf1gridbox "Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button aren't elite": Said with no argument to say why they weren't elite. They were objectively among the highest performing and successful drivers when they were competing. If winning a world championship and being a consistent race winner doesn't make you an elite driver then what on Earth does? I never said teammate comparisons were bad to make or invalid, just that your particular argument regarding Hamilton's performance against teammates was bad. I said that trying to use teammate matchups as a way to say Hamilton isn't that good was awful because he has objectively done very well against a wide array of teammates most of which were extremely good drivers. Strawman; speaking of choosing not to listen. No the numbers actually don't prove that Russell matched Hamilton in 2023. The numbers show he finished 59 points behind Hamilton in a season where Hamilton outperformed every driver not in a Red Bull when the Mercedes was on average the 3rd best car that season. Russell was extremely close if not slightly faster in qualifying that year but during the races he was almost always slower than Hamilton. He also made way more mistakes while Hamilton made close to none at all. You then proceed to make the point Hamilton can't perform when the chips are down when that's exactly what he did in 2023. He regularly finished on the podium and outperformed drivers in cars that were objectively faster than that Mercedes, which was notorious for being inconsistent and very difficult to drive. A textbook example of Hamilton performing when the chips were down. "Even if that wasn’t the case, a seven time champion should be a level above every teammate he has, even the other champions." This is such a ridiculous point and makes no sense lol. You act like there can be only one driver on the entire grid who is competing at the highest level. If you had put Alonso, Raikkonen, or Montoya at Ferrari in the 2000s then Schumacher wouldn't have been another level above them even if he is an all time great. Sure he probably would have edged them out and beaten them but he would have had fierce competition and would have lost a good few races. Rubens managed to be a match for Schumacher every now and then it's not crazy at all to suggest had one of the best drivers of the era been put along side him that he would have been seriously challenged the same way Hamilton was when he was teamed with exceptional drivers. "he only started beating kovalainen consistently when the car got good, proof he can’t perform well when the chips are down" Even if this was true, which it isn't this isn't the huge knock against Hamilton you think it is. When the car isn't good is when a driver's performance matters least, it's not anywhere near as damning than if the car is good and the driver underperforms. Performing when the car is good is what actually matters because that's when you can get good results. A bad car lowers the skill ceiling between drivers and prevents drivers from tapping into their full potential. "Lewis causes countless incidents in 2011 and blamed most on others wrongly" This is just an irrelevant jab at Hamilton's personality and way of conducting himself, showing me that you probably have some other personal motive behind your desire to downplay Hamilton's career. Schumacher also caused a lot of incidents and hardly ever took accountability for it. Drivers are egotistical that's not unique to Hamilton. You love bringing up Button and showing how he outperformed Lewis yet Lewis did better against Alonso than he did against Button. By your standards and by your own logic that would make Button better than Alonso but something tells me you wouldn't make that argument. Hamilton scored double the points that Heikki did in 2009, you can't cherry pick the parts of the season where Hamilton wasn't doing well and then use that as an argument to say Hamilton isn't that good, what type of logic is that? If I singled out times where drivers were underperforming I could make anyone look bad. How about I go down the entire list of all time greats and single out spells in their career where they were losing to teammates? Alonso struggled against Trulli and Fischella at times, it's not unheard of for even the best to go through periods where they are struggling with the car and they have less of an edge over their teammate as a result. Guess what other all time great Jenson Button beat in the standings? Fernando Alonso. If we are going to disingenuously single out times when the sports greatest drivers weren't performing at their best maybe we should be arguing about why Jenson Button is actually a GOAT. Your last point about all time great drives is extremely subjective and nearly impossible to prove in any objective way. That being said I'd argue his 2008 British GP win is in the conversation for greatest F1 drive ever. Singapore 2018 and Hockenheim 2018 were also world class drives. The only reason Hamilton's track record against teammates isn't as good as other all time greats is because he has been put up against objectively much higher performing drivers. You want to use Hamilton's performances against teammates while misrepresenting the talent level he had to compete with. Most of Hamilton's teammates were top drivers, most of Schumacher's weren't.
@turdferguson3803 95% of your arguments are non sensical. The idea that a seven time champion shouldn’t be dominant or at least consistently superior is utterly absurd. By “not elite” I mean Jenson and Nico barely break into the top 15 OAT yet it’s somehow OK that Lewis only beat them 2 out of 7 times comfortably. You’re barking up the wrong tree mate. If most of Lewis’s teammates were top drivers, I’d argue the same for Michael. Yes Nelson was his only champion teammate but the likes of Barrichello and massa, especially Rubens were championship potential drivers before Michael became their teammates. Michael had a higher percentage of full time multiple time race winning teammates than Lewis. Schumacher’s teammates combined had 80 race wins, Lewis’s have 82, despite having less races nowadays. The idea that Schumacher had massively worse teammates is stupid, you just want to downplay him despite Lewis having a lot of similarities.
@@nedzosf1gridbox You're calling my arguments non-sensical while you think singling out individual times in a drivers career when they underperformed is a valid and not dishonest argument. An elite driver isn't the same as an all time great and that's not what I was implying, you can be an exceptionally fast and competitive driver without being ranked within the top 20 to ever do it. It's not crazy to say that an elite driver can be competitive with an all time great either, pair any all time great with one of the best drivers on the grid at any given time and they're going to have a fight on their hands. No driver is so good that they can constantly dominate all the best drivers on the field when in the same machinery. Thinking that is what is actually non-sensical, the margins between the best drivers in the sport are extremely close. If you replaced a thoroughly mediocre driver like Perez with an elite driver like Leclerc or Russell then Verstappen would only be winning 60-70% of the time instead of 90-100% of the time. Nothing about Barrichello's career indicates that he was as good as Button or Rosberg. His career is extremely comparable to Bottas and by every measurable metric Button and Rosberg showed way more talent than Rubens. I'll grant you that Massa was an elite driver, however when Massa and Schumacher were teammates Massa wasn't nearly as good as he would eventually become a couple years later. When Hamilton was teamed with Rosberg and Button they were both highly experienced and in their prime. "Michael had a higher percentage of full time multiple time race winning teammates than Lewis" Man you love cherrypicking to make your arguments look better than they actually are. Button and Rosberg won more races and were actual championship winners, acting like they wouldn't be a greater challenge than two dedicated 2nd drivers is just denial. "full time multiple race winner" lol I have no incentive to downplay anything. I think Schumacher is better than Hamilton, not because of teammate comparisons but because of how incredible his 1994 and 1995 championships were winning with what clearly wasn't the best car. Trying to argue that Schumacher is the best because of his dominance over his teammates would be similarly stupid because Ferrari purposefully never paired him with another elite driver.
@turdferguson3803 you said “no good driver is so good that they can constantly dominate all the best drivers in the field in the same machinery”. Schumacher did (even beating far better cars as you mentioned), in 1994, 95, 97, 2000, and 2006. Fangio dominated the likes of farina and Moss and beat Ascari in weaker machinery in 1953. Jim Clark best the likes of Graham hill, John Surtees, Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme, and got two perfect seasons. Lauda consistently beat the likes of Reutemann, Regazzoni, Hunt (despite missing two races), John Watson at Brabham, and technically Prost. We all know the stories of Prost and senna. You act like the other GOAT’s also had struggles, but the truth is they didn’t. As bad as the going got, with the exception of Lauda returning from a 3 year break, none of the others ever got beaten by a teammate straight up. You fail to understand that, and they regularly outperformed what their machinery should’ve been capable of. Lewis simply doesn’t do such a thing.
I'm not a Hamilton or even a Rosberg fan and I agree with your overall point but your point about Rosberg "not being nearly as hyped up as Lewis" and "Rosberg was similar to de Angelis etc" kinda sucks dude. Rosberg won a championship fair and square.
He never made a good reason for why it was a bad thing for Hamilton be challenge so hard by rosberg, he just kinda swept him under the rug. Regardless of him saying he’s not bias his actions said something else in the video Forsure
Rosberg did win a championship fair and square absolutely. All those drivers I listed like de Angelis never beat their legendary teammates yet Nico did, so that means Lewis isn’t the GOAT or Rosberg is incredibly underrated.
I did make a good reason. Nico was an upper midfield car driver his entire career before the Mercedes got dominant. He beat Nakajima (well done that’s easy) and beat a 40 year old Schumacher (again well done). He hadn’t had a proper teammate we could judge him against since his rookie season. Someone who hadn’t made a big front running impact in the first 6-7 years of his career should never have happened. Barrichello never challenged Schumacher for a title, nor did Irvine on merit, or Herbert, or Massa in 2006. Senna, Prost, Lauda, Fangio and Clark etc had no such qualms like Lewis did beating teammates
@@nedzosf1gridbox Fair and square? Are you forgetting how the garages were swapped over that year, so the garage crew loyal to Rosberg then had Hamilton's Car, while the Garage used to winning, got Rosberg's. A lot happened in that 2016 season to make it so.
@@chrisliddiard725 the garages got swapped over because of other factors. Controversial or not there were no effects that Hamilton wouldn’t have enjoyed the previous two years
@@nedzosf1gridbox Wow yes that was a great season between Lauda and Prost 🤠 I do not cheer for a driver but the racing and overall season is what matters to me. Kinda like Hamilton vs Verstappen 2021, that last race was wow!
Hamilton is a great driver. But i think he gets bit too much respect just because he had excellent team licking his a** for multiple seasons. At first they had to bully Nico and then they did it to Bottas. Now he's crying when the team isn't performing as well anymore and isn't licking his a** anymore.
They didn’t bully Nico Nico had 1 title fight with Lewis and quit because he knew he couldn’t beat him again Bottas was brought in so that never happens again Every great driver has always had a #2 Max and Checo Fernando and Massa Schumacher and Rubens Hamilton and Bottas They weren’t “licking his ass” They were backing the best driver Lewis is leaving Mercedes so it makes perfect sense why they’d back off of him
As far as the GOAT discussion is concerned lately I have looked it from the perspective of what GOAT-candidates achieved in seasons they did NOT win the championship and here Schumacher, Senna and Prost have many either many 2nd places and/or heroics in cars that were not the best Hamilton has yet to match. For example take Schumacher's 98 campaign or his drive at Spain in 96, former was a notable effort and latter a legendary drive. Then there are drivers like Alonso, Räikkönen and Prost in particular who could have easily won many more championships than they did. Personally I'm in Schumacher is the GOAT boat but after taking a closer look I'm starting to think Prost was the best and still manages to be somewhat underrated despite 4 championships and many 2nd places. Oh and here is a kicker take a look at his teammates and the fact he never had a "Rubens" or "Bottas" there.
Lewis Hamilton no doubt is a great driver I would ranked him ahead of Alonso and Verstappen but I wouldn't put him ahead of Vettel and Raikkonen like you said in your Daniel Ric latest video while Daniel Ric had the edge over Vettel it would of been closed and not been too far ahead. Lewis Hamilton getting beaten by Button, Rosberg and George Russell is more embarassing than Vettel losing to Charles Leclerc and Daniel Ricciardo.
@@nedzosf1gridbox what about them? all prob more talented than Hamilton, Senna will always be number 1, he was just too good imo. I also think that Hunt had more talent than Hamilton. I really don't think you can rate any driver of the last 10-15 years as one of the greats because F1 is primarily dominated by one team these days.
F1 has always been dominated by particular teams, that’s why Ferrari won on average a constructors title every 3.5 years until 2008. Also up until 2008 more than half of all championships ever were won by just 3 teams. 35 out of like 50 between Ferrari, McLaren and Williams
I don't know about the Verstappen claim. He's driving pretty amazing. It would be one thing if his teammates were finishing second all the time to qualify that. No teammate has been able to come close. They are no slouches either. Look at Max at Toro Roso. So impressive. Add to the fact that he has matured into a faultless driver for the most part. He's that good. Schuey did the same to his teammates at Benetton.
Yeh couldnt agree more, 2023 with Max dominance to me is what really shows the difference over how Lewis... isnt the same "driving robot" of the likes of Max and others He tends to have slow starts on the season and just requires more stuff to align well, 2023 tbh he did well but at the same time got slightly flattered over Russell being his usual self and doing mistakes at times (tbh this is also why I dont put George alongside Lando or Charles or even Sainz)
Older drivers tend to not take well to rule changes. As you age, you get settled into your driving style and take longer unlearn and adapt. Unless you're Alonso, who seems to drive anything fast outside of an Indycar. If it's true that Newey is going to Ferrari, I foresee Hamilton struggling with Newey's high rake philosophy.
I think it's really hard to say 100% who is the best driver unless you have an actual model and lap times of every grand prix driver who has ever turned a lap. The team comparison method can turn into a game of rock paper scissors and each formula required different types of skills but that's obvious. Lauda definitely shouldn't be ahead of Lewis because Ronnie Peterson destroyed him and Jean-Pierre Beltoise (such a nobody that I had to search his name) beat Lauda too. Lewis has beaten all his teammates head-to-head in race trim apart from Alonso (6 - 9) and maybe Russell after this year but that's to be decided.
The fact you don’t know JPB says a lot. In an era where there was a stark difference between lower formula and top cars it was often difficult for newcomers to adjust, not many did. In Lauda’s rookie season Beltoise won by 37 seconds from jacky Ickx, a rain master, in the wet at Monaco. You can’t say that he isn’t a good driver. Peterson is also criminally underrated and had already come runners up in 1971, unfair to compare him to a rookie Lauda in the context
I just love the livery. A colour that’s not used enough in motorsports. I also like the banzai and unique early Benetton liveries with pastel light colours
@@nedzosf1gridbox I loved the Tyrrell 012 and the Jordan 191. Those green's just popped. The Leyton House blue was incredible too. Ivan Capelli and Maurício Gugelmin. Almost pulled one off.
Goat, will change person to person the era that you watch will affect this, being an old bloke Hunt Louder Andretti, where brilliant had great back story and personality’s that you just don’t get today Senna is my favourite but what Schumacher is the GOAT he built 2 teams no one else can say that
You didn't factor in racism in any of this. If you went to an all black formula 1 team. 500 people in total. From team principal to your ko driver, your telling me the possibility that your all black team wouldn't put preferential treatment to your team mate who was also black in a predominantly black country with black pundits etc. Or did the racism disappear the second the first black driver stepped into a formula 1 car? He the greatest driver just like mohammed ali had his critics at the time how are you any different from them.
It’s not about race. Motorsport doesn’t care about who you are, it cares about how fast you are. Michele mouton was one of the fastest drivers in group B rally in an era of sexism and she beat those who were sexist towards her most of the time. Lewis was a British driver in a British team that he had been a junior driver in for a decade. Trying to argue that Alonso was actually preferred purely because of Hamilton’s skin colour is a disservice to everyone who’s actually experienced racism rather than lying to make your point
@@nedzosf1gridbox if any of what you said was true the percentage of black racing drivers at the pinnacle of the sport would be the same as the percentage of football players at the top or boxers or any other sport where racial barriers have already been broken. He is literally the only black guy there. All none white people that now work in formula 1 are a direct result of him being there. To claim no racism is absolutely 100% crazy bro! No to mention him visibly backing women too. One of the qualities that leads so many to the conclusion he is the greatest. And him being a British driver doesn't protect him from racism. Take it a from a British man. I will subscribe to your channel
@jvolney the reason why there’s less black people is because the majority of the black population in the world live in poor countries, you need money to race
@@nedzosf1gridbox thanx for repeating what you heard somewhere else but ive heard that before. Drivers baring lance stroll dont normally pay for themselves. Other people do so your proving my point even more cause no one is backing the black drivers. Even tho Lewis hamilton shows investors what happens when you do black drivers.
You’ve just blatantly lied twice there mate. 1) I do my own research so don’t assume I’m lazy. 2) Even if there are drivers like stroll who back their own careers, you still need money to get onto the racing ladder. Karting is up to 250 grand a season and sponsors won’t cover everything even in junior formulas unless you’re a hot shit generational talent. There are several black or mixed drivers in junior series like Ugo Ugochukwu, Arvid Lindblad, and Josh Mason and co., and in series like Indycar and NASCAR there’s more representation because there’s less financial barriers, but black drivers are still a minority because most countries that are predominantly black are poor sub Saharan African ones. Going back to your point, if it’s all sponsorship (which it plainly isn’t), then in those regions there is ZERO racing infrastructure whatsoever, so how can they get started. Seeing diversity at the lower levels is becoming more common, I commentated at a local kart championship and saw I think 2 black drivers out of 40. The truth is if you want to advance past karting without loads of money you need either generational wealth or talent, and that’s hard for any driver to come by. Racism has played a part in motorsport, see Wendell Scott’s first win in NASCAR in 1964 and Alonso fans at Barcelona testing in 2008, but it’s not a thing in the team selection process of junior teams. If anything nowadays black drivers actually more likely to be selected over a similarly talented white one for PR and sponsorship reasons. Most of the reasons there’s less black people in racing is because you need lots of money. That’s why sports like football and basketball are so much more diverse, you don’t need half a million pounds of equipment, only a ball. Until racing becomes less expensive those from mostly poor demographics simply won’t compete at the level of others in motorsport. It’s like asking why there’s no drivers from the Pacific islands, or North Korea. It’s not racism, it’s the fact there’s zero infrastructure to support them
I'm still puzzled by their decision. They had amazing chemistry with Chas and Carlos. They worked great together. Now they are going to bring in someone that is notably toxic to teammates. Chaz is a winner for Ferrari at Monza. That is hero status to the Tifosi. Hamilton will need to accomplish that almost instantly to become Driver 1.
Amazing analysis and what I've been telling people that start this argument with me. The only point I don't agree with is that Lewis shouldn't be considered above Alonso, as evidence of this, Alonso Rarely lost to a teammate and is renowned for destroying other drivers. Even with worst machinery. And to be fair Alonso hasn't had championship winning cars in the same amount as Lewis. Lewis had 11, Alonso barely 2.
The only stains against Alonso’s record are 2004, where Trulli was beating him before he got sacked, 2007, and the last few races of this season. To be fair he’s had 4 championship winning cars, in 2005-7 and 2010. Where Lewis is really good, in great cars Fernando struggles and where Lewis struggles, Fernando is really good in the midfield and with crap cars
@@nedzosf1gridbox Understandable, but I must differ, the Renault was great in half of the time in 2005 and 2006, it wasn't superior to the McLarens and the Ferraris, it was competitive with them, 2007 was his first true best car, and we know how famously Ron Dennis made Alonso's life there a nightmare, it was him not only against the rest of the grid, against a favored Lewis, but also his own team, and he tied with Lewis. 2010 you could say he had a competitive car against the RedBulls, but not superior, Ferrari got 3rd in constructors. I see superiority cars like when the RedBulls were almost 2 seconds faster than the second best, or Mercedes from 2014-2017, 2019-2020. Ferrari 2002 is another example I remember. 2010 Alonso lost because of Ferrari's poor strategy, not cause of Alonso's ability or Vettel's, Webber had a better shot as well and they bottled both of them. Lewis also had a better McLaren than Alonso's Ferrari's yet Alonso destroyed him with a worst car 4 years in a row, until the turbo hybrids in 2014. Mercedes had no competition and F1 became boring, to the point you knew on Saturdays what results to expect between Nico or Lewis. There's no way you can put Lewis ahead of Alonso when he has been blessed with superior machinery half of his time in F1 and has been beaten multiple times. Yet like you said in the video, the greats have never almost never lost against a teammate or anyone in the best machinery. I know for a fact that you replace Nico and Bottas in those Mercedes with Alonso, Lewis doesn't win half of those championships.
Very misleading non-sense put together, because Buton came out with more points than Lewis you just concluded that he is not the greatest because from your own words this never happened with Shumi and others bla bla bla......Did Shumi ever had a World Champion teammate? Who amount all Shumi was close to Jenson Buton? Also why you judge Lewis against Jenson in 1 season? I believed they were teammate for 3 seasons, and who came on top? pretty sure youdon't want to answer that question...nonsenses
Schumacher had two world champion teammates, Nelson Piquet and Nico Rosberg, only one less than Lewis. He had four championship runners up drivers, Riccardo Patrese who was Mansell’s subordinate in 1992, Irvine in 1999 then Barrichello who was his own subordinate, and Massa who got his “silver medal” after Michael initially retired. Only one of Schumacher’s full time teammates didn’t have a win, that being Martin Brundle. So yes, Schumacher had several world champion teammates and more who could’ve easily got one. I didn’t judge Lewis just against Jenson in their 2011 season together. Across the three years they had together Jenson had 15 more points, despite having the same number of mechanical retirements in 2010, Jenson having double Lewis’s mechanical failures in 2011 and Button having a particularly bad season in 2012. “Who amounts from Schumi’s teammates to Jenson Button?” Definitely Nelson Piquet, and I’d argue both Barrichello and massa were close. It took for Schumacher to come back from three seasons out of F1, be the oldest driver in F1 for 37 years since Graham hill in 1975, have to get used to a completely new tyre compound and car construction, to lose to a teammate, even then he was very unlucky in his Mercedes stint. Meanwhile Lewis lost to his world champion teammate on debut when Schumacher was faster than piquet right out of the gate, then lost to Kovalainen in the first half of 2009, then lost to button overall, then only convincingly beat Rosberg one season out of three, losing a title to him, then only destroyed Bottas because he was a number two, then got beaten by George Russell two seasons out of three. Schumacher never lost to a teammate before Rosberg, meanwhile if you discount Lewis’s seasons with Bottas as teammate, he’s only convincingly beaten his teammate 3 out of 13 seasons, even including Bottas it’s only 8 out of 18. You’re not goat material if you’re consistently struggling to beat or losing to several one time champions who weren’t in the conversation for the greatest
@@nedzosf1gridbox well you said he shouldn't even have been in the possition to win a world championship in the first place, quite the low ball considering how much you hyped up Schumacher and the fact that Nico beat him 3 times out of 3, yeah 2011 was close but 2010 and 2012 was not
@EmilForsberg_GRYBO I recommend you watch my video on Schumacher’s Mercedes return. I think that by 2013, Nico was seen as a great midfielder, not not one of the best, similar to Heidfeld, and the fact that he equalled or beat Lewis in three out of four seasons says more about Lewis than it does about Nico
Gerhard Berger was hired by Ferrari, McLaren and twice Benetton, David Coulthard by Williams and McLaren. Are you suggesting they should be in the debate too?
I agree that Lewis isn't the GOAT, at least in terms of outright performance (I rate Senna, Fangio and Clark all ahead of him). In terms of statistics, converting a car into wins/poles/WDCs/WCCs etc, he most certainly is the GOAT. Now, to counter some of your very biased points: 1. Alonso was a 2x WDC, with a large number of races under his belt leading into the 2007 season. Hamilton was a rookie with no F1 drives to his name. That's advantage Alonso, irrespective of Hamilton doing testing in pre-season. 2. Alonso is a serial liar. He's also a serial antagonist. He is NOT a team player. 3. Schumacher vs Piquet? Piquet was always overrated. He is the weakest of the 3x WDC imho. Schumacher, despite my dislike for him, was always the better of the 2. 4. Lewis vs Button - Lewis won 2 of the 3 years. Both in qualifying and race trim. But Hamilton haters such as yourself like to spread lies and make it out that Button was the better driver. 5. Prost got beaten by Senna in 1988 and 1989 (with Prost and Balestre cheating in 1989). And all of this with Senna moving to what was Prost's team. And Prost was considered the best at the time too I might add. I don't know how old you are, but I have probably been following F1 closely for longer than you have been alive (42 years and counting). If I had to rate the drivers over the years they would be in this order: 1. Senna 2. Fangio and Clark equally, a hair's breath behind Senna and I mean a hair's breath 3. Prost 4. Schumacher/Hamilton
Assuming you know more because you’ve been watching longer is arrogant at best and stupid at worst. You can lie about me being “biased” all you want but I have no affiliations with any drivers on the current grid. Alonso did have experience and I did mention that several times but to ignore the testing Lewis did is stupid. Jacques Villeneuve did a similar thing and got similar results in his rookie season. I don’t see why your second point matters. Fernando may not have been a team player but that doesn’t matter when fighting for a title. Lewis also wasn’t a team player in Hungary before Fernando held him up. Your points on piquet are purely opinions, and Schumacher beating a three time champion who was still winning races (even if in very lucky fashion in Canada) is mighty impressive and shouldn’t be overlooked just because you don’t like piquet. Jenson got more points than Lewis across the three years they were teammates, the bad luck Jenson got in 2010 counters what Lewis had. He was quicker than Jenson on average by 2 tenths across their three years despite qualifying being Jenson’s Achilles heel, and finished a few seconds ahead on average. This ignores reliability and things that weren’t Lewis’s fault. Well done for beating a guy who struggles to get into most peoples top 15 66% percent of the time you’re teammates. Senna beat Prost fairly in 1988 but in 1989 even if Suzuka didn’t happen, Ayrton crashed out in Adelaide which would’ve lost him the title anyway even if he won in Japan. Famously senna always moved where Prost was despite Prost moving away from him to Ferrari. Funny how you mention Alain’s intentional crash but not Ayrton’s. I don’t care if it was revenge, it was dangerous and in that era potentially fatal. Prost had a nowhere team in 1991 and took a sabbatical, really following senna before going to Williams for 1993 which means we can’t pair them again. In the modern points system that rewards consistency and not a “win it or bin it” mentality Prost wins eight titles. Senna being number 1 in your opinion is OK and you’re entitled to it you just need better justification rather than the fact you’re an old man
@@nedzosf1gridbox Schumacher was, and always will be, a CHEAT. Should have been banned from the sport. Fernando is well, his own worst enemy. People fawn all over Alonso, but the truth is, he was well and truly matched in 2007 by a rookie. A rookie. See, the longer you do something, the typically better you become at it. Hamilton outscored Button in both 2010 and 2012. Hamilton has always been sensitive to outside influences and this is his weakness. Verstappen has better focus in this respect. Scherzinger was a terrible influence on Lewis in his younger years. 1989 had very bad reliability for Senna, similar to Hamilton in 2016. If you'd been alive, and watched the season, you'd know this. Senna was clearly head and shoulders above Prost in 1989. Suzuka 1990 was payback for 1989. And I don't have a problem with it. Revenge is a dish best served cold (Klingon proverb). Prost was a sly prick. I'll repeat it for you slowly, since you're a bit thick it seems - prost was a sly prick. Senna went to Williams in 1994, and a shit team it was too. Prost was a chicken shit who vetoed Senna being alongside him at Williams. Now onyer bike fuckwit.
So Alonso wasn't a world-class driver! Also, 2016 Toto switched pit crews and engineers that year that Nico won the championship. I believe that Toto knew that Nico was going to retire anyway!
Nico literally said he only retired because he won and that was all he wanted. Switching pit crews shouldn’t stop a seven time champion winning another one it’s a minor detail. And I don’t understand your point about Alonso.
absolutley true Hamilton is a bit overated im not saying hes a bad driver team LH he is a good driver hes just not the goat watch out for the #F1XED channel hes gonna be a right knob again and call you out for being racist or some BS really good vid
@@nedzosf1gridbox because im not a biased englishman im a Swiss and ferrari fan im so sick off team LH thats also the reason why im not fooking foward to Lewis being in ferrari
@@nedzosf1gridbox ok as i said watch out for those F1XED Team LH channels anyone who criticises lewis they call you out and they wanna cancel you for being (racist or some BS) they almost did it to me thank god i deleted my comment as soon as someone told me he was gonna cancel me there so childish it s beyond special
@@19megamustaine85 is it ? Ok fair enough but how about Mr Hamilton almost winning the title his rookie year .. Did Max almost win the title his rookie year, Has Max won a WDC with 2 different teams ? If I’m not mistaken Lewis has.. you do realize that the fastest qualifying lap ever recorded belongs to said W11 and who was the driver ? take a guess ? see as far as I’m concerned neither driver is versatile than each other because both drivers have only race and competed in one type of race discipline .. versatility would be that both raced in other type of race disciplines ..
@@nedzosf1gridbox Your 2 selected from the Olympics that's completely different to the world of F1 as the athletes you've mentioned haven't lasted as long as that Hamilton guy in terms of still at there physical peak as there both retired a while ago and Hamilton started F1 2007 way before them starting Olympics and guess what he is still the best driver even up till now competing
@F1Guy-Guy Lewis hasn’t been the best driver for a while. Olympics are still sports. What about Sebastien Loeb, a nine time champion of WRC who first competed in 1999 and was still winning in 2022
@@nedzosf1gridbox Rally is not the pinnacle of Motorsports F1 is the daddy and Lewis Hamilton has always been the best driver ever seen in an F1 car and holds all of the near impossible records achieved by a poor black kid from a council estate in England not bad
@@F1Guy-Guy no category is the pinnacle of motorsport, NASCAR is the pinnacle of stock cars, F1 the pinnacle of international open wheel racing, WRC of rally. Numbers aren’t everything
It's a bit more complex than that. You have to take into account where you and your teammate are in their career and how established in the team they are. If you are beating your teammate but they are getting improved parts later and getting shafted on team orders, it doesn't say anything. This is why I'd say Sainz is a much better driver than he's given credit for.
@stephendavis59 No winning, I guess. Be economical with words others won't understand. Be liberal and others won't read it. Anyhow, you are right that the teammate battle is the best measure of a driver, but the finger is on the scale on most cases.
Okay listen I mean absolutely no offense here but the amount of misinformetion / (times you conveniently chose to leave out details when it suits your argument) you make some of your points on is a really big miss in this video. Call me out for bias or whatever but if you wish then I would gladly just have a pure discussion with you where I will mention all the points I just accused you of and will offer some counter facts for my side of the discussion! I am not hiding back in a short comment now but I would like to establish a common understanding and desire for a talk before making the effort of writing a hugely long comment which might not be read. So if you're interested @Nedzo's F1 Grid Box then I would be more than happy to talk about it either in a voicechat or just per text, whichever you'd prefer! In the end obviously 7th in a ranking of the best drivers ever in F1 is not bad at all but I do think he deserves to be a bit higher! At least in a different area than form 10-5. In my opinion he does deserve to be amongst the top 4! However in in that area I get that it fluctuates.
@@nedzosf1gridbox Despite me actually agreeing with you in the general statement of Lewis not being the goat I do have to criticise you a bit here. And please do not blame it on my favouritism here... I'm rather pissed off because throughout the video I get the feeling (maybe this is a misunderstanding from my side and then I apologise for my little outburst!) that you like to dig on people being uninformed and portray yourself as more knowledgeable and 'smarter' in a sense. You mention at 7:15 I believe, that others who are in the discussion of being 'The GOAT' such as Fangio, Clark, Prost, Senna and Schumacher never got beaten by their teammates. This is plain wrong for some of them and others were close to being beaten! I know you mention Prost and Senna beating each other in the end so fair enough... However Prost also got close to being beaten in both 1982 by René Arnoux despite Arnoux have 2 more DNFs (in races where both finished it was 2-1 for Prost with 6 points difference by the end of the xear) and also 1990 it admittedly wasn't close with Mansell but that might also be because Mansell had 9 DNFs compared to Prost's 4. (In races where both finished it was 4-3 for Prost in 1990) Again there might be more context to these due to Mansell maybe crashing more than Prost and therefore explaining the DNF difference and that would obviously counter my argument so if you have more information about that please do tell me! As for Senna you are correct apart from the year 1989 with Prost obviously however it is worth mentioning that other than Prost, Berger and De Angelis, Senna never had any noteworthy teammates that were close to a level of Button or Rosberg. For Berger and De Angelis I would argue that neither of them are close to Button, Rosberg or Alonso in terms of skill! (De Angelis maybe could have been but we shall never know due to his unfortunate death in 1986 as those two were only teammates for that one season!) Obviously there was Häkkinen in the last 3 races of the season where in the 1 race both finished Senna did beat Häkkinen however obviously that was obviously Häkkinen's very, very early stage of F1 career and racing! As for the two drivers from the 50s and 60s... With just a brief research on wikipedia I found that for example Fangio COULD have been beaten in 1956 by Peter Collins. Collins though chose to give up his car to Fangio in the last race despite being on course to possibly winning it!!! It was also the 2nd time that year Fangio was allowed to take over a teammates car and Collins had more DNFs that year. (Again maybe worth mentioning when criticising Lewis for being beaten by a teammate) As for Clark (who I personally actually consider to be the most likely GOAT although we will obvs as another comment says never be able to compare the different eras of F1 drivers with each other properly) he actually also DID get beaten in 1961 by TWO of his teammates being Innes Ireland and Stirling Moss who BOTH had more DNFs than him! Admittedly again there might also be some missing context this year (as well as 1960 which I did not include where Clark actually too got beaten but I couldn't see specific race results for every driver so I decided to exclude it from this argument) Schumacher is sort of another Senna case. Admittedly he never got beaten (Apart from Nico Rosberg in 2010 where Nico actually dunked on him, 2011 where admittedly Schumacher did have 5 DNFs to Rosberg's 2 yet the races H2H excluding DNFs was still 7 - 6 in Rosberg's favour. You do mention in the end that you did make a video on Schumacher in his Mercedes era however I still find it a bit controversial to counter argument this in a different video, but don't reall take the fact of Nelson Piquet's age and crash after which his performances dropped into account which I will mention again later on . I acknowledge 2012 but chose to not take that season into my argument because it's obvious that Schumacher would have most likely beaten Rosberg that year if he hadn't had 5 DNFs more) Schumacher did as you say beat Piquet in the 5 closing races in 1991 however in the 3 races where both finished it was also just 2 - 1 in Schumacher's favour against a post crash, aging Piquet. Other than Piquet Schumacher never had any other teammates that are comparable to Button, Alonso and Rosberg If you'll try to argue that Massa, Barrichello and Martin Brundell are similar caliber to either 3 of Lewis' I believe we need to dive even further into the driver skill of Button and Rosberg. If you came this far and actually read my comment then genuinely thank you because I understand that it probably was not easy after both the length and the I admit a little snappy comment!
@@nedzosf1gridbox Yeah I know sorry, just don't know what you understand under "a few paragraphs" and also I had this texted out already and felt like it belonged together.
I’m a Lewis fan. I don’t care about the goat debate since everyone with a brain already understand a Goat simply can’t exist when you objectively think about it. However, my comment is in reply to some of your points. First things first, you seem to compare Lewis to Michael a lot saying he never got beat by his teammates, however why would you think Michael’s teammates are on the same level as Lewis’ teammates? You even said Rosberg is comparable to the likes of Irvine, which can only be an opinion with no objective way of looking at it. Bar an endgame Piquet, Michael really didn’t have any competitive teammate and I’m talking about the years he drove and not comparing them to today’s drivers. There is no driver that event stood out in a team that came to be Michael Schumacher’s teammate. Saying he never got beaten by his teammate is also factually wrong as Nico Rosberg exists. You can say he’s old, he was out of F1 and there different regulations, but Fernando Alonso is loving proof of none of that bs mattering. Michael got done by Rosberg 3 years in a row, so by your logic that means he cannot be a goat (Just like Lewis. Keep in mind, I’m not disagree with you, but rather pointing your flaws on the criteria you’ve set). Moving on to Lewis v Button. Realistically Lewis was always faster than Button even 2011. He was the only one to get pole after all. His problem was him colliding with Massa every other race. That I agree. It’s the lowest point in his career and many races where he’d just crash into other made him look like a Stroll tier driver (only in awareness though) In both 2010 and 2012 Lewis was clearly faster than Jenson during quali and race trim combined, also adding into account him being more unfortunate than Jenson. You’re watching the average data of race/quali pace shown on screen yet you do not account the circumstances behind those data, especially considering the many technical problems he faced. The same thing can be said for Rosberg as well. In all 3 seasons combined Lewis was way more unfortunate than Rosberg, hence the 2014 season was so close. Funnily enough in 2014, Jenson stated in an interview that he has not seen someone as unlucky as Lewis, which says a lot. Another TH-camr ‘recreated’ all 14/15/16 so no technical issue happened to Lewis and Nico and the results are as expected really, with Lewis comfortably winning just like in 2015 in both their other seasons. When it comes to Russell, I won’t mention the experiments at all, but won’t you mention the fact that Lewis was unluckier than George that season? Again, you can’t be looking at data to just determine how things really unfolded. Ofc in the history books the one with the less points will be remembered as the loser and no one will care about the broader picture, but again by that logic, Michael will be remembered as a loser as well, hence out of the goat race? Seems fair. I do agree with many things though: Lewis’ 2011 season was mid and got demolished by Button. Lewis race craft and mostly quali pace have fallen significantly. One probably due to the fact of being comfortable at the front and the other due to age. Now as to who should by the goat (by your criteria): it’s easy- Jim Clarke. It’s only him and there’s no 2nd 3rd 4th etc. Now as to why the F1 (and mostly every other sport) can’t realistically have a goat: 1- the drivers. We all know that today’s level of drivers is much higher than the ones of the past. I’m not talking about your Senna’s Schumi’s etc but your average drivers. Can I prove that claim? I can’t, bc there’s no realistic way for that to be proven. It’s more like a gentleman’s agreement. They’re an improvement when it comes to their athletic abilities and their intelligence as well. 2- The machinery. You can’t compare a car going 60 km/h through a turn to one that’s 180 km/h. You can’t compare the g-force. Different circumstances mean unequal point of measurement, which makes the whole goat debate highly subjective. You can say Micheal beat all hi teammates, but you can’t actually prove that Michael would be able to be Sergeant. Just like you can’t prove Lewis would be able to beat De Angelis. What you’re doing is comparing eras and seeing which one had the most flawless career in said era. That’s basically just who had the best career. The point of racing is to see which driver (and car) is the fastest and not which driver had the most consistently successful career. We all know that a race and a wdc can be won by not the fastest driver or car, which makes the goat debate even more impossible to come to an objective verdict. Sorry if I said a lot mumbo jumbo. Haven’t slept all night so I might’ve said some stupid things, but too lazy to double check. Again, I don’t really disagree with you that Lewis isn’t the goat in the criteria you’ve set. However I wanted to point out that many of the comparisons you’ve have a lot of flaws to them. If you want my honest opinion, (which is only an opinion since it can’t be made a fact) This generation of drivers we have in F1 today, are the best drivers to have ever stepped foot in F1. Can I prove my claim? I can’t. It’s just an opinion, just like this video can’t be a fact, just an opinion. Ps. Goat debates are really just stupid tbh. It’d be easier for ppl to just say “I think this driver is the goat bc” Instead of that ppl say - “He’s the goat” That’s a big difference.
Mate respectfully I’m not reading all that. You can’t seriously trying to tear down Schumacher’s name because of a stint 6-8 years after his last title. You use Alonso as an example despite the fact Alonso came back to the same rough car regulations and tyres when Schumi didn’t. All of my data ignores weekends where there are caveats, anything from a grid penalty to an accident, providing it wasn’t their own fault. Also I don’t think Clark is number 1 without providing a top 5 I think Clark is ahead of Fangio, Nuvolari, Prost and Schumacher for the top 5
@@nedzosf1gridboxWell we live in a democracy. You can choose not to. However just like you point things out, I will point things out as well. I’m not trying to tear Schumacher’s name at all. If I wanted to do that I’d have cleared him off your list by just mentioning Australia 1994 and Jerez 1997 and the many more instances where he acts in an unsportsmanlike manner for his benefit. His stint 6 years after his sabbatical, his still his stint. There’s no double ganger in his place. When it comes to different cars. Both him and Alonso came into new regs just like everyone else. I don’t see how that comparison doesn’t make sense. You can say he was way for longer, but I doubt Alonso would be as slow as Micheal had taken off the same amount of years off. But that can’t be proven either. Also not to forget the whole teammate comparisons between eras argument which is a very opinionated one and where’s absolutely no proof as to how good Michael’s teammates would be in comparison to Lewis’ ones. However there’s fact that Lewis teammates have stood out more than Michael’s teammates. Also I just said Jim is the undisputed goat by your criteria, and there’s no one after him. I wasn’t saying that you said that. I was saying that he’s the goat and that there’s no 2nd 3rd etc bc that’s pointless. One is the goat and all of the others aren’t. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, rather giving you a different perspective. You not taking into account races and quali where drivers had technical problems is even worse then, since such feats performed by drivers in a race or quali are lost bc you took them off. Feats which paint a very different picture. If one driver was faster than the other but had technical problems, that should still be acknowledged since you’re talking about a very delicate topic, hence everything needs to be taken into account. I already went and typed my comment knowing we won’t come into an agreement, and so be it. I always try to take the most realistic approach even when it’s against my favorite drivers (which isn’t only Lewis btw but also Fernando). That is the reason why I can’t agree with many of the comparisons you’ve made, since they simply can’t be proven in realistic way. Being unable to do anything about that, I tried to show you points that you made that are very subjective and rely on a probability. When it comes to everything else. I agree with you. Using your criteria, Lewis isn’t the goat and you’re right about that. I have no problems with it whatsoever. However the points you made- that I touched upon don’t have much credibility behind them.
@illyricus all I’ll say is that on a statistical basis there’s no way to account for races where someone retires while in front. It’s unfortunate but it’s how it is. There’s no way you can empirically measure it
the point you made about lewis winning 7/11 potential championships should be 7/9 as in 2010 and 2012. he had the fastest car but mclaren screwed both drivers
He beat a 41-43 year old schumi who was coming off the back of a three year break, and the biggest change in tyre/car philosophy combined since his debut in 1991. Schumi’s Mercedes stint was actually underrated, I did a separate video on that
@@nedzosf1gridbox Great points. Change in Tyre philosophy is a massive factor. Look at what it did to Jacques. He hated the change before it actually took place. He had a good understanding of mechanical grip. Some people bash him pretty hard, but he won the Indy 500 from two laps down, took the championship, then came to F1 taking pole on his first race. Gave Damon a run for a bit, then won the WDC the next year. Pretty impressive for a rookie, no matter what the haters say. He slid down the rankings once grooved tyres became a factor. Poor management had something to do with it as well. Plus he made a boatload of cash.
Mate, sorry but your video is a load of 💩 think you just made it up for clickbait. Team mate comparisons don’t even make sense. Was Ruben Barrichello, ever aloud to race Schumacher 🤔
He was at the start. Was Piquet “aloud” to race Schumacher? Yes. What about Brundle? Or Patrese? Or Lehto, Verstappen or Herbert? Or Irvine? Or Massa? There’s a reason for that. Lewis doesnt have the same record against teammates. Put it this way. Alain Prost had Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna as teammates for a quarter of his career. Lewis only went up against similar calibre against Alonso for one season.
If you say so. Everyone has there own views and opinions, but to say that he’s not the goat is questionable and your video is to. And I do remember seeing Nico Rosberg, absolutely smash Michael Schumacher as team mate.
@mrg2797 Nico Rosberg smashed a 41 year old coming back after 3 years away with completely new cars and tyres. Schumi was actually criminally underrated in my books in his Merc stint. I did a video on it, and I found out that if it wasn’t for bad luck and reliability in 2012, he would’ve led the championship after Monaco. Interesting stuff but also I just can’t put Lewis in the same bracket as Clark, Fangio and Prost and co because he’s lost at one point or another to half his teammates when the others get nowhere near his numbers
@@mrg2797 I have to agree with the Nico comment. He was by far the toughest team mate Pewis had. Took number 8 off of him. His pace in his early equipment was pretty damn good too.
Statistically yes, but if considering only driving skill Lewis is not a GOAT by not only for reasons you've mentioned. While he's incredibly quick when car suits him but when not he's pace inconsistent and quite sloppy when battling others (tactical understeer). He had an amazing 2007, 2015 and 2018 seasons, but others either by pure luck (2008 where he made a lot of mistakes and tbh was quite lucky that Massa and Ferrari fumbled and Sauber shot themselves into foot with no upgrates, 2014 by little bit of reliability issues from Britney still almost equal) or dominant car (2017 with Ferrari and Seb fumbling). Personally I'll rank him on 8 place after 6 GOATS that was mentioned and behind Alonso on 7th due when they were fighting on almost equal cars except 2007 and 2nd part of 2023 when AM fuked up when it came to upgrates Alonso almost constantly had an edge on him. EDIT: there's great site that F1 metrics where they made a great chart of best drivers by pure performance.
@@joaopedrogoncalves3861 In order 1. Clark: super smooth and versatile, only downed by Lotus reliability. 2. Fangio: winning 5 titles and almost win 50% races in death traps says much. 3. M.Schumacher: while dirty but extremely consistent while being quick and the ability to build a team around is something else. 4. Prost: not flashy and overly political, but super smart on track and strategic. 5. Senna: mega quick and out of the world on rain, but accident prone when pushing and overly aggressive when someone dares to challenge him. 6. Lauda: technical genius and has giant balls to go back to the race after life threatening crash, win WCC year later and even win 1984 title against Prost. 7. Alonso: tendency to burn bridges but extremely smart on track and phenomenal racecraft. Supremely adaptable and mega consistent when driving. 8. Hamilton: supremely quick, great wet driver and consistent when car is tuned to his liking but current stats overrate him as he can be sloppy on racecraft and most of current winnings are mostly to sheer Merc dominance on 2nd half of 2010s 9. M.Verstappen: I would rank him higher in later years due to recency. Otherwise super consistent, aggressive and capable of insane runs when needed both dry or wet. 10. J.Stewart: often forgotten but a supreme driver, only left racing too early to show real potential. Honorable mentions: N.Piquet, Hakkinen, Vettel, Mansell, Raikkonen. I can add Fittipaldi, Moss and Ascari but I don't know then enough to properly judge.
Agree with the video. Lewis has been blessed with a long career of being competitive cars at the right time. He has always been world champion quality, but if the team isn't 100% behind him he falls off a bit.
Yep, although the best car debate is mostly hypocritical I get where you’re coming from
@nedzosf1gridbox Yeah, sorry I wasn't going for that angle, but you'd be hard pressed to find many drivers champions who weren't in the best car or had the support of the best team.
@ndh06 you could only reasonably argue drivers in chaotic seasons like 1982 with Keke Rosberg
@@nedzosf1gridbox There will always be Turkey 2020.
That's not true. Look at mclaren right now. Arguably the best car at the moment and norris isn't doing anything. To win, you have to have a good car and be the best.
I have watched F1 and Motor Racing since the late 60s and I can tell you this GOAT nonsense has become toxic. It's impossible to compare drivers from one era to another. For instance Fangio didn't start racing until his mid 20s and he didn't have any sort of physical fitness regime no trainer or motivation coach to gee him up before the race, no pleb to test drive in a simulator for hrs on end testing tyre suspension and aero set ups.
Same can be said about Farina who did start young but had no assistants, as with all of the drivers of the time. I would say most of them could not have run out of site on a dark night. Things didn't change much till a couple of decades later.
Put any of them into a current F1 car ( if they would fit) and they would very likely fail. Or put a current F1 driver into a car of the 50s or 60s and tell them to try and equal the times of a Fangio, Ascari or Hill I doubt they could because the mind set is totally different, everything is different.
I completely agree with you. But what we can do (a little), is compare drivers who were driving in roughly the same period. The last, let's say, 20 years we had drivers like Button, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Verstappen. And I am curious about the opinion of somebody like yourself, who has been watching racing for so long, how you place these drivers among themselves. Personally I think that Verstappen really do has that edge over Hamilton, both lightning fast, ruthless etc. but I can't help to think that Verstappen has the edge with sheer constistency and determination. Just curious of your opinion on these two and which other drivers you think belong to the best of all time.
@@JohnH1 Well at least you know Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT 🐐
statistically he is the goat, but you can't really compare the skill of drivers from different eras because of changes in rules and other factors.
Also, Hamilton drove in a team that believed in sharing the spoils, meaning he might have had many more wins if he was as single-minded as Verstappen and, ahem ...his father.
Whenever someone says "statistic" the next thing coming out of his mouth is pretty much certain to be a lie. Yes he won a lot of titles, but with the Mercedes AMG he really only had one competitor for eight years in a row. Common sight during those years was Lewis and his team mate already sipping on the champagne when the third car crossed the finish line. Lewis is not the GOAT because except for two of these years these were all easy wins, and he lost them both mainly because he gets frustrated when things don't go his way. 9:35 is a great example of how Lewis handles frustration, giving Max his first F1 win in his first ever drive in the RB. And then of course there was 2021, I don't believe Lewis drove the car home with two front wing end plates still attached even a single race in that season.
I’m a Ferrari fan of 35 years and not looking forward to Lewis joining. Or more so his toxic fan base. If Lewis wins anything it will be all his doing that saved Ferrari no matter how many new key figures have joined the team. If he wins nothing it will be all Ferraris fault for being shambolic despite Lewis not having won anything since 2021.
Good honest video by the way. Respectful to Lewis achievements with a realistic look at his career 👍
Thanks for the kind words. I hope I’m proven wrong about Ferrari but I don’t think I will be
Personally, I haven't noticed that LH fan base toxicity as much as the Verstappen tragics. Those guys spend their time accusing other commentors of being LH fan boys and acting like Jos and Marko can do nothing wrong.
@@ndh06 I follow all teams across various social media platforms, so I have personally seen and interacted with all the fanbases. There are several with varying degrees of toxicity, with some of the most toxic being Checo’s fans, and the Tifosi, to my great shame since I am a lifelong Ferrari fan.
That being said, there is one fanbase that stands head and shoulders above the others. One that has no problem with openly calling for violence and even murder. And it’s not just one radical fan here or there. There are hundreds of them who do so, with countless others voicing their support of these people instead of condemning them. In fact, in 2022, this fanbase openly called for arson (which would inevitably lead to deaths) against “their own team’s” factory for “sabotaging” their favorite driver who they act as if he is God. The reason I put “their own team” in quotes is because they don’t actually give a damn about the team, and only care about that one driver. Look at the vile and disgusting ways they talk about George Russell. I don’t even really like George, yet it’s sickening how they talk about him. And they talk much the same way about Hannah Schmitz, Max, and Fernando, and their families. This is, inarguably, THE most toxic fanbase, bar none.
One guess to which fanbase this is. Here’s a hint, it’s not the “Verstappen tragics” as you called them.
This actually is so right, the Hamilton Fanboys are so much invested in Newey joining Ferrari as if he is like Lebron James always looking for more help and rightfully so but what annoys me is that if he manages to win something, it will be all BECAUSE OF HAMILTON and NOT the TEAM even NEWEY. Like I said its generally like the situation of Lebron James that if he fails to win, its anyone else's fault except for him. That is not how Ferrari works. I also, resent the fact people are thinking long standing Ferrari fans are welcoming of the guy which we ARE NOT and those who think otherwise have their affiliations somewhere else and not at FERRARI.
This comment will age poorly. Vasseur is not an idiot.
At risk of sounding like "team Hamilton" I'm going to wade in on the your Michael Schumacher points. He went to Ferrari as the Number 1 driver. This was openly spoken about the media at the time, as a contractual obligation. Irvine and Barcello had not won races before joining Ferrari and were clearly bought in to be compliant number 2 drivers. Granted Michael Schumacher was infinitely better than them, and generally they only won races when Schumacher failed to finish and this is inclusive of when Irvine went for the title challenge as Michael Schumacher broke his leg in Silverstone that year. On the few times they did get ahead of Schumacher on merit they were told to move over buy the team. Therefore saying that Michael Schumacher was the stronger driver than Lewis Hamilton, I would say is a controversial opinion being that throughout most of his career Hamilton actually had to fight against his teammates with the decision to favour him came towards the end of the season when it was mathematically impossible for his teammate to win the title. With the exception of Kovlinen and an overly compliant Bottas Hamilton's team mates were pretty strong contenders. Schumacher was in his first stint in F1 never had a championship contender as a team mate, with the exception of Nelson piquet who was at the end of his career.
Also if you ask me the GOATS of f1 are either Fangio or Clark. But then thats probably me looking at F1 with rose tinted eyes in the same way the people who didnt watch F1 in the 80s and 90s look at F1 today.
Those are semi fair points although Lewis was favoured over Alonso, and regardless of Schumacher’s unequivocal number one status he overwhelmingly deserved that. Outqualifying Irvine on his first race back by a second exemplifies that. I can count the amount of races where Barrichello challenged him on one hand. Lewis wasn’t as dominant and thus didn’t get such unrelenting support. Almost all the goats were mostly number 1 drivers too
Bottas may disagree, both had team orders backing them all the way. Which is F1 tactics normally. The 1 season LH had to fight his teammate he lost.
A useless debate as I believe the true GOAT is our current champion.
Schumi went to Ferrari when they sucked, I doubt Lewis can turn around a team he has yet to prove that. Bc of this I rate him below Schumi, 3rd best of all time. I have Senna 4th, bc he just was not afforded the time.
@@Niex_Knox fair Lewis did have is lucky troughout his carrer but if he wins with ferrari then the debate is over for schumacher, alonso or senna fans because if it that happens, that means everywhere lewis goes the team wins.
@@Niex_Knox Hamilton lost to Rosberg in 2016 due to dreadful bad luck, significantly worse than Rosberg by a massive margin. If not that for, Rosberg would not have beaten Hamilton.
@davepastern luck is racing, simple as. Surely a seven time champion with bad luck can overcome Nico Rosberg
If he's going to Ferrari because he's been given the nod that their car will be untouchable, as per Mercedes, I'm tuning out. Couldn't handle the world's least likeable sportsman being granted the best car for 90% of his career.
If he was white u wouldn't care would you
@@ang3lic07 Oh give it a bloody rest, you are making it out that lewis is only talented black racing driver.. We get it you want to blame EVERYTHING on racism.. that is the normal for a TYT viewer
Why do you claim he is the least likeable sportsman in the world? Isn't that a little harsh? How did you come to that conclusion?
Least likeable? I’m Dutch and he seems like a good guy and an incredible driver aswell
@@max08160 Probably the language barrier in your case that's clouding your judgement, while others are simply a bad judge of character. He's a smarmy little creep, and most of us in the UK know it.
Not enough credit given to LHs consistency:
Records for points total, poles and race victories with 7 titles during a 17 yr career and he's STILL rated 'desirable' by all the top teams.
And don't forget, if it wasnt for his early inexperience in 2007, some Roseberg favouritism in 2016 and the Masi brainfart in '21, he would already be 10x WC and the GOAT question would be pointless.
A fan who cared enough to create a counter-vid, could easily find stats and evidence to say LH should be a 12x WC.
What other driver in history could you make such an outrageous (but arguable) claim for?
...12 titles!🤔
Records nowadays are inflated by numbers of starts, bulletproof reliability and constantly being in dominant cars. Even with that Lewis has lost on merit to three of his six teammates at one point or another. Lewis lost 07 by triggering the proper civil war with Alonso by not honouring the gentleman’s agreement, in 2016 Rosberg wasn’t favoured that’s just a lie and in 2021 Lewis’s bad luck in Abu Dhabi can easily be countered by Silverstone and Baku where he firstly took max out then in Baku failed to capitalise on bad luck for max. The only other season he was remotely close to the title was 2010 so whoever said he could be a 12x champion is huffing tons of copium. No one else can say they could’ve been an 11 time champion because no one else in F1 history was in a top car for that long. Schumacher had nine seasons in a championship potential car, Prost had seven, Senna had four, Lauda had four, Fangio had six. Drivers in the past spent a LOT less time at the top compared to today. Stats have been inflated in recent years with advances in reliability and races per season so comparisons based purely on number of race wins or poles must be done so on a percentage compared to race starts basis.
You made some good points but a lot of what you said is subjective. You’re right about not comparing eras. However these facts remain:
Best driver gets the best car and Lewis has been/was the best driver for a very long time. No other driver in history has shown that level of consistency for such a long period. Also he does it clean, yeah he can be ruthless but he is fair….ask the other drivers.
Minute margins and luck in F1, you can’t deny he was unlucky in 2007…missing out by 1 pt in his rookie season against a dbl WC in Alonso who was ruthless against his teammate from the start, even before the team orders drama.
In 2016 his car let him down multiple times and Nico picked up the pieces. None of his other team mates have beaten him and then won the WC.
In 2010 and 2011 LH had some serious offtrack drama. Plus Ferrari had a great car.
In 2021 Max was underpenalised for his desperate and dangerous driving that later led to rule changes. Lewis was barely at fault at Silverston.
Abu Dhabi was inarguably illegal and should’ve been overturned. I still don’t why Merc settled for Masi’s firing and some rule tweaks to rectify an obvious breach of the rules. It didn’t make sense to allow only the drivers separating the 2 contenders to be overtaken plus th safety car came in earlier than the rules specify.
12 WCs might be over doing it but saying he should have 9 is difficult to argue against and 11 can be argued with only a small portion of biased analysis, that says alot by itself.
@PaulWilliams-pq2cp 2007 he was unlucky yes, but 2010 and 11 were his own fault. Regardless of what was happening off track that doesn’t excuse his performances, especially 2011. As I said in the video in terms of major mishaps in the races that can be measured in 2016 Nico lost more points from Monaco and Canada compared to just sepang and won fair and square.
2021 while Abu Dhabi had bad decision making, Lewis had several points elsewhere to gain ground, e.g Baku where he missed 25 points, and took 25 points away from max in Silverstone. Objectively he was lucky to get to Abu Dhabi given the circumstances and if you analysed 2021 the same way you seem to want to do 2016 max comes out on top. Also yes it’s crazy that with some tweaks he could’ve been an 11x champion but again as I said no other driver has been in that many championship winning cars. Schumi gets closest with nine but after that it’s a crapshoot between Fangio, senna and Prost on 4-6. You’re praising Lewis for being top of a statistic that doesn’t actually mean anything given his career at the top has lasted longer than everyone else in terms of being in a top car, and even despite having that many chances he doesn’t exactly run away in the stats department. Same championships as Schumacher. Only ten more wins despite 2 more championship potential seasons and more races in those seasons. He doesn’t have the ruthless destructive consistency of Schumacher and Verstappen in modern times, he’s only won won the cards were stacked in his favour entirely with no blips. A seven time champion should be able to beat Jenson Button even if he’s going through on track stuff. A seven time champion should never lose to Nico Rosberg even if he isn’t treated as a second driver. Same with George Russell. The reason the likes of Schumacher command absolute number one driver status is because they are the faster driver 99% of the time. Against the likes of button, Rosberg and Russell Lewis has proved he’s not insurmountable. That’s why for me he isn’t and can’t be in the conversation for GOAT status. He’s a very glorified Damon Hill, out of the world on his day but otherwise retracts back to a lower level of performance
@@nedzosf1gridboxAs I said in another comment I would love to have a genuine discussion with you too leave out quite some details and also contradict your claim in the beginning of the video of 'not being biased'. That's another topic but also one I'm more than happy to explain if you'd like to discuss this topic in real depth with lots of time investment!
@@OhDearTheBier yea go ahead, a few paragraphs at a time
Hell of a last video mate. I say last cause Team LH are about to chase you off the site…😂
I don’t care, they’re stupid anyway
If I could have an all time Team 🇬🇧 F1 line up, I’d pick Clark & Moss. Who’s your top 10 🇬🇧 Drivers ever?
Top ten British drivers I’d say
Clark
Hamilton
Hill
Stewart
Moss
Mansell
Button
Surtees
Hawthorn
Hunt
Yeah Hawthorn is so overlooked. I assume that’s Graham Hill you’ve ranked.
@simontravers2715 it is Graham, who is also underrated, compared with Damon who only had two good races in his entire career
Finding a GOAT F1 driver is a futile journey. Most candidates are only dominate for an rules era and mysteriously drop off when they have to adjust to a different ruleset that doesn't favour them.
The only GOATS in F1 that I'll acknowledge are Adrian Newey, Charlie Whiting, and Murray Walker.
Yes that and Alonso.
Fair play, all three were very good
@@ndh06 Alexa who is the GOAT of F1 Lewis Hamilton is from England
Imagine basing an argument on the stupidity of "he has the best car" as if anyone can get into the car. By that logic, Logan Sergeant should be able to win a world championship in a Red Bull, Lance Stroll in a Mercedes, and Zhou in a McLaren. To be in the best car you have to be the best driver. Sergio Perez is a great example of how limited your insight is on what makes someone a GOAT. If it was all car Sergio and Max should be fighting for the championship up till the last race. They do not.
Did you watch the video or make assumptions based on the title? Watch through to the end
Different from other sports, F1 is so dependable on the machine and timing to be on the right place and the right time that a discussion is worthless.
I gave up on these talks years ago. I just enjoy the races and the cars and the best drivers of their period.
If you have a case to be the GOAT on F1, it means you and your management did the job well, that's the best it can be said.
Fair play, you’re far more mature than I am 😂
Totally agree, as a seven times world champion he should at least won one race in the car that ended second in the constructors championship! Certainly if you count that the difference between teams is smaller than ever. Redbull was not nearly as dominant in 2023 as Mercedes was in 2019 and 2020.
That his terrible argument, mercedes finish second in the contructor because of you know who!
@@joaopedrogoncalves3861 name another constructor who ended second in the championship without one of their drivers win one race!
See what my point is!
To be fair BAR did in 2004
@@nedzosf1gridbox Yeah, but did they had a seven times world champion running for them? Button was not a champion yet at that time either.
Fair point
Warms my heart seeing Jim Clarke at top of so many lists, now there is candidate for goat!
Glad to hear it mate
Absolutely correct.
@@hayleycooper9299 It's not up for opinions polls or open for debates That Hamilton guy is the GOAT and holds many records to destroy Jimmy nobody
@@F1Guy-GuyOh man... You're one of the reasons why I hate being a Lewis Hamilton fan sometimes... The fact that you call him 'Jimmy nobody' either shows complete stupidity, arrogance or ignorance. Even more supported by the fact you say that there is no argument to be held about Lewis being 'the GOAT'! If it weren't worth an argument you'd easily win the argument in less than 5 minutes but that's so far from true when comparing 'GOATs' especially when it comes to the likes of comparison with Jim Clark, Prost, Fangio, Senna and Schumacher. Those 6 could be switched either way with the smallest differences between them and all variants of ranking them would be completely valid. Purely relying on records is the most stupid way of saying someone is 'The GOAT'... And maybe you'd be surprised how many records or which SPECIFIC records all of the previously mentioned ones still hold to this day!
@@OhDearTheBier There are no Goats as there's only one room for one Goat and that GOAT is a bloody black Goat by the name of Sir Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton 44 so go smoke that on your pipe
A good analysis without disrespecting the driver but I disagree with some of the points. I find it difficult to believe that McLaren started the season favouring Hamilton as he was a rookie. They probably believed that Hamilton would be a good no.2 and when he started beating Alonso, gave him preferential treatment. I think it’s like Vettel and Leclerc in 2019. JB and Rosberg were not push over drivers. Button’s 2009 season was underrated as the Brawn wasn’t good in the 2nd part of the season. Also he only got beaten once by both. I think it’s difficult to decide a GOAT in F1 because eras change but Hamilton is the greatest of his era.
Great video and all of the other ones I have watched so far are equal. From someone who’s been watching F1 since 1995, I find your content to be engaging, well narrated and with good analysis as foundation. You deserve a lot more views and subscribers and I hope you get there soon
Thanks for watching! Glad to know you enjoy my content
I've been to over 80 GP since 1982. Of all of the seasons, 1985 was my best experience. I went to 5 that year. Alesi in Canada was a banger.
We had front row seats, 4th on the grid. I started a Happy Birthday chant and had the entire grandstand singing it to Jean. He tossed his gloves over the fence to me.
He would win that day.
There is a trend of recency bias and almost pathological loyalty that leaves so many fans insisting that whomever is flavour of the month is the greatest and who react irrationally when you suggest they are not. Saying Sir Lewis Hamilton is not the best of all time, does nothing to take away from his achievements or diminish his skill in any way. It simply says there may be a handful of drivers who are better.
For me Lewis Hamilton's claim to GOAT status fails simply because he was beaten by Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button as team mates. Both were very skilled drivers but neither has a claim to GOAT status or legend status and yet both were able to beat Sir Lewis in the same machinery. I cannot see Alain Prost or Jim Clark being beaten by them in equal machinery.
Lewis fans need to calm down, their hero is an all time great, he has done quite a lot for raising issues of racial awareness which not many drivers previously have done and has statistically set a standard that may never be matched and his fans should celebrate the range of positives rather than being personally offended when he is not ranked the GOAT.
Simply watch the 1993 European Grand Prix at Donnington and you will see why he is not the GOAT.
Completely agree
that's a valid point. But then again, Schumacher for example, was the clear number one on his teams from the very beginning and never had competition from his team mates, until that return with Mercedes that doesn't really matter.
What's better, to never have competition or to lose a couple of times to quality drivers?
@@bizarroeddie1 Your paint is valid, but for the fact that Schumacher is not the GOAT either and critiquing him does not unfortunately elevate Hamilton any further up the pecking order.
Senna, Prost and Jim Clark all raced against and beat very strong team mates without a clear number 1 status. They are all ahead of Hamilton because they were equally as fast when young but less error prone and far less prone to mental disintegration because of issues outside of the car. They all fought as hard for a 6th place finish as they did for a win while Hamilton is prone to losing interest when he is not winning.
Simply put in the pantheon of greats, Hamilton was prone to mistakes for the first part of his career, he is not as mentally tough as the greats and he has been beaten by drivers who are not all time greats in the same machinery. He will almost certainly remain an all time great forever, but those deficiencies mean he Is not the GOAT.
Senna, Prost Clarke, Fangio, Stewart and maybe Lauda had less deficiencies and are therefore above him. None of them would have lost a championship to a driver of Rosberg's calibre.
Please do not take this as an attack on Hamilton, there have been more than 775 F1 drivers in history and he is comfortably within the top 10 of all time, he has done more for raising issues of racism than anyone else associated with F1 and he has dominated his era through skill not simply luck. Denying him the GOAT label does not in any way take away from his abilities or success and he has achieved greatness.
@@MrCarrera28 dude i just read the first paragraph, didnt need to read the rest, it doesnt matter.
I just pointed that everyone has their own view of these things. One can say he never lost to a team mate and the other cant.
It's best to stay away from the GOAT debate as it is impossible to be unbiased in the argument. I like the idea of an un-numbered top 5 with anybody who asks whose the best told to #@$% off.
The only time numbers don't matter is when the Goat conversation comes up. People have there personal bias for whatever reason. Go figure.
@@patrickbell4627 numbers matter as long as there is nuance and context to back them up
105 wins go smoke that on your pipe 😂
That is one fiery video. Fact remains true though that Lewis had to have high trust in his car to showcase his own abilities. In that sense I guess the guy is extraordinarily talented but in contrast to a Schumi not a monster under your bed. Schumi was quick wherever he was and mainly trusted himself. Not going into '22 and '23 all that much since up against Verstappen with the zero-pod Mercedes? Nobody would have won that. But losing to Rosberg (no WDC till that point and retired after, so you can't even call him a WDC-teammate) and Button (who Lewis did beat the year after) is pretty lackluster. Anyone trying to prop up either Rosberg or Button perhaps does so implicitly to better the view of performance of Lewis as well.
As for next year. Well, any year is "our year" so we will be champions in '25. Seriously though, I think that what you saw in Canada (lacking the speed) could easily be an ominous sign for the future. And whilst Lewis might not have lost much of his touch, this group that does little else than sim-racing racks up experience to a huge degree and all of them are still very close to their absolute peak in performance levels. So whilst I think he is still on it he might just get blown out of the water by some 24-year old that has the natural ability of a George or a Charles.
He is already at 106 wins!!! 2 more wins since your video, As you are trying hard to take him down, he rises.
@@hamadouotamsi4938 first of all it’s 105. Bro added one in there and thought we wouldn’t notice. Secondly, isn’t it funny that now he has the fastest/joint fastest car he can win again? Not only that but it takes several strategy blunders from other teams in Silverstone and a disqualification in Spa where they had the fastest car by a margin all weekend
To be the GOAT you have to win chanpionships in other series(e.g. Surtees,Mansell); win a championship in a team you created from scratch(Brabham); win a championship without even competeing in the later races (Rindt); win a championship then get killed whilst still in your prime (Clark,Senna,Rindt).....If 21st century champs had competed in the sixties,they woudn't have achieved so much: fewer races and half of them would have been killed.
@@robertmunning to be fair only Ascari, Clark, Rindt, and Senna died while being champions still competing in F1. Fast drivers dying might have been more common than nowadays but it wasn’t the norm, mostly one every year or twi
100% he is the best. I’ve watched Senna from the mid 1980’s, the Schumacher era and then Lewis and 100% he is the best. He isn’t like the others - he is stand alone and different to every other top driver.
What are your actual reasons though?
Yeah share why you think that way?
yep, no other mulat gays in F1
@@nedzosf1gridbox and who is your best. Make a video about him and Lewis. Don't compare someone's accomplishment with accomplishments from several drivers, unfair
You were watching the armco barrier 😂
George used Lewis data, which is why he was able to reach pole. Lewis was the fastest in Practice 3 in Canada, and no other driver came close. When it came to qualifying, Mercedes turned down Lewis' car. This is what Jacques Villeneuve asked Toto Wolffman about. If Mercedes is sabotaging Lewis, how can he compete with George? Lewis engineer stated that soft and hard tyres were available on Sky TV. Lewis preferred soft tyres, but the engineer demanded Lewis use the slower hard tyres. Mercedes did this so Lewis would not compete with George. Lewis was 22 years old when he was a rookie, and he also won the Formula Two title.
😮😮😮
George used Lewis’s data to get pole, so why didn’t Lewis use his own data and/or George’s? He was fastest in practice, so what? Are you going to hand some of Lewis’s titles to Valtteri, as he was often quicker than Lewis in practice? 95% of the time strategists can see the bigger picture better than the drivers. Lewis himself his performance in Canada was shocking. Of all the Lewis hills to die on you chose this one 😂
Can anyone point to a champion with a bad car ? Old regs teams could spend there way out new regs if you choose wrong your in a pickle an you can't throw money to solve the problem. A driver skill will only get you so far in F1 . You must have a open mind when comparing any F1 driver the cars are not Equal never have been . It takes 2 to win the championship. OK good point russell won in 22 an won first this year. The merc is the 4th best car on the circuit 3rd at best it shouldn't even be winning races from 22 to now they are so far behind yet the 2 drivers are getting the best out of a turd . You may not see him as the Goat but most of F1 does so 🤷
Haha, a car that got a front row lockout and a win two races ago is “3rd at best”? Nice joke. It’s probably joint second best. And to answer your question several drivers have won titles in the non fastest car. Mike Hawthorn in 1958, Emerson Fittipaldi in 1973, James Hunt in 1976, Keke Rosberg in 1982 (his car was fifth fastest on the longer tracks), Nelson Piquet in 1983, Alain Prost in 1986, Michael Schumacher in 1994 and 95, and Verstappen in 2021. Several other drivers had no problem winning when the chips were down, but Lewis can’t. When the McLaren was bad in the first half of 2009 he was equalled by and consistently lost out to Heikki Kovalainen. He lost out to Jenson button in 2011 by a massive margin, and Button outscored Lewis points wise in their time as teammates. Nico matched Lewis in 2014 and beat him in 2016, and George has had the upper hand since 2022. If you discount the seasons he had a subordinate number 2 driver in Valtteri Bottas, he only had a decent upper hand on his teammate in 3 of his 13 seasons in F1, those being Kovalainen in 2008, Button in 2012 and Rosberg in 2015. All of those drivers he lost to at certain points and 4 of his six teammates have beaten him in the points standings. If you take the other legends and GOAT’s (Fangio, Clark, Senna, Prost etc), and add up the times they lost to teammates that weren’t also GOAT status, the only driver in the top 10 to lose to a lower calibre teammate on merit was Niki Lauda in 1982-3 against John Watson. Lewis triples that number on his own. For a guy who’s won so much, he’s lost a heck of a lot too. He’s only won 7 out of the 11 championship potential cars he’s been in, and even the likes of Alain Prost have a similar percentage record despite going up against far stronger competitors in the same machinery.
This argument makes no sense, only using his teammates as the only bar smh
@@franciscolima5892 how does using the most comparable measure in F1 make “no sense”?
For me, the GOAT conversation is so subjective that I can't give a definite answer, or even a ranking like you have done, I think it would chop and change depending on how I feel on the day. There are just too many variables to compare and contrast between all the different drivers from different eras who are considered to be in the conversation. And there are many worthy candidates from the decades. My personal opinion is that you can have the best car on the grid, but it's up to the driver to get the most out of it and they almost always do. The fact is that the best drivers will more often than not be in the best cars, and will have the team behind them. That'll always skew things at least a little bit.
I think that there have been several times during Hamilton's win drought from Saudi Arabia 2021 up to now when he won at Silverstone today, in which he has put in great drives and still shown how good he is. Has he always got the most out of these difficult Mercedes cars? No, definitely not, and I can admit and accept that as a Hamilton fan. Does that lessen his case to be the GOAT? Depends on your opinion, I guess. For me, he is up there. Maybe not be THE greatest, but he's definitely worthy of being in the conversation.
"...a guy who should never have got [a world championship] in the first place like Nico Rosberg"?
Are you smoking? Or are you just using your misinterpreted/ill-informed opinion of Rosberg to prove your point about Hamilton? Maybe you really are saying that Hamilton was spectacularly crap in 2016?
Look at Rosberg’s career before 2013. He got outscored by Webber as a rookie, was better than Kazuki Nakajima (well done), and slightly better than a 41-43 year old Schumacher. He hadn’t shown any championship potential as he didn’t have a significant upper hand on Webber nor Michael, yet he was equal to or better than Lewis 3 years out of 4. It’s a mix of Hamilton being overrated and Rosberg coming of age, but nonetheless no driver has won their first championship later than Nico apart from Nigel Mansell, who had been in contention for six years beforehand. Rosberg came out the blue to compete against Hamilton even when his early career suggested that wouldn’t happen. That’s what I was trying to say
*In my eyes, Fangio will always be the GOAT.* Senna, Prost, Lauda, Clark, Schumi, Vettel, Alonso, Lewis & even Verstappen will always be great drivers but they had moments where they were outperformed by a teammate and moments with silly mistakes. Fangio didn't had these. He only had 7 seasons in F1 and won 5 of them, with the other 2 becoming runner-up. His last 3 races were bad but his car was really bad and was 4 years old. He got a last fastest lap in that old car though. To me the biggest regret I have with F1 is that there is so much British bias with the drivers & commentary. I really wish we see more nationalities within Sky Sports or the official F1 Live. This is also why many people, including myself, mute the F1 TV broadcast.
Sadly. Whether you agree or disagree like or dislike Britain is the home of F1 and have more teams more championships both driver and constructor. So a little bias is acceptable
The truth is SLH is the Goat of his era MS was the greatest of his. MV will be the greatest of his
as far an overall GOAT it is just impossible to compare the different time the different machinery even tracks so given any comparison can only be on current times and records held at the moment that gies to SLH
@@F1SCR007 Sorry but to me being the home of F1 doesn't give you the rights to give bias over other drivers when the commentary is broadcasted worldwide. If you do it for local television I'm fine with it but people from other continents are literally sick of it and I'm in the same boat as them. LH is no GOAT and will never be, 2022 & 2023 prove that. Max is a greater driver than LH then in that logic because he won 10 races while his car was the 3rd & 2nd best on the grid. I also stated that Fangio is the GOAT, not Verstappen. In 7 seasons (2007-2013) LH would only claim 1 title, meanwhile Fangio got 5.
@@BoyFromBelgium99 Guess. You just had a need to rant and read nothing of what i wrote.
Your only and main objective was to belittle SLH. sad times indeed
I am pretty sure that SLH has SEVEN
therefore invalidating you fangio five
Do yourself a favour. Read what i wrote again engage your brain before your mouth and adjust your reply
@F1SCR007 Fangio only had SIX attempts at a title since we’re randomly adding full caps to WORDS. Lewis has won 7 out of 11 titles where he had the best or joint best car. That’s 63% of the time. Fangio has an 83% ratio which would’ve been 100% if not for bad reliability. Schumacher has 81% (7 from 9). Clark has 100% (2 from 2 where he didn’t get taken out by his rivals teammates or have awful reliability. Even prost who was fighting against senna and Lauda got 66% (4 from 6). Lewis got a lower percentage than Prost with much worse teammates. Considering F1 careers generally last longer now than they ever did before percentages are key to not completely omitting older drivers due to factors they couldn’t control. If you did every single race from the inception of the F1 world championship in 1950, you would have to wait until the 1980 Canadian Grand Prix to match Lewis’s starts. That’s why the older drivers have less numbers. Because they had less races, not because of lack of ability
I've been to over 80 GP since 82. Most of them in the 80s and 90s. There was something really amazing about watching Senna live. Whenever he came on the track in the practice sessions, the entire crowd went silent. It didn't matter what country you were in. He was a god to everyone back then.
Eccleston stated on the Brawn GP documentary that the F1 teams regularly makes one driver's car faster, which is what Mercedes is doing.😂😂😂
I disagree not on the goat thing (for me its Prost) but the Schumi comparisons when he literally had it in his contract that his teamates were a no.2 and couldn't even test as much as him or even have the spare care set up as they want kinda defeats the teamate argument. I can see though were you're coming from.
Lewis was obviously favoured over Alonso and didn’t need it with Nico or George. Since most of his career came in the non testing era I don’t know how it would’ve applied had he had lots of testing
Not to forget that Schumacher was a liar, a cheater and a sore loser willing to endanger his opponents, who doesn’t deserve his two first F1 titles because Benneton was cheating with illegal fuel, hidden antislip system, illegal flat bottom …
Schumacher was not very good to manage real pressure from an opponent and I would say that we can summarize him with these two proverbs:
The end justifies the means.
A triumph without peril, brings no glory.
I concur, Fangio, Prost and Clark are great, and since there are always exceptions to the rules, I would even put Gilles Villeneuve in that small circle!
Jim Clarke all day everyday
@@Grey138 Way too behind that Hamilton guy who is clearly been the best driver ever seen in an F1 car and with the GOAT tag around his neck
@@F1Guy-GuyYes we know that's why Clarks name means nothing because of that Hamilton
Im my opinion, the GOAT debate is futile cause it's just nigh impossible to compare different eras of F1. There are way more races nowadays and reliability is mostly a non issue, as are crashes, which can inflate the stats. On the other hand, the ceiling is unimaginally high nowadays, you have to be a top athlete, have lods of money, be at the right spot at the right time and are way more dependant on the car and crew. F1 even back in the 80es was a different world, let alone the 50s to 70s.
It also has goten incredibly toxic. Just saying you think "xy isn't the goat for me" will have entire armies of Team LH, Max, Senna or whoever fans coming after you for dearing to disrespect their goat, even if said driver still is easily top 5 material.
I rather prefer ranking drivers as best of their eras, going with that, I think it, something like:
-Nuvolari (pre F1 era)
- Fangio (50es, honorable mention to Ascari and Moss)
- Clark (60es, honorable mention to Surtees and Graham Hill)
- Steward (late 60es/early 70es)
- Lauda (70es)
- Prost (80es, honorable mention to Piquet)
- Senna (late 80es/early 90es)
- Schummacher (90es/00nds, honorable mention to Häkkinnen and Alonso)
- Hamilton (10s, honorable mention to Vettel)
- Verstappen (20es)
Pick your poison, as I said, I think it's nearly impossible to compare different eras.
Fair enough, I do a similar thing I just rank all eras equally and the drivers in them compared to those around them. For example Fangio, Clark and Schumacher were levels above every other driver of their era for their entire career. Prost and senna had a similar level while Lewis didn’t if you get me
@@nedzosf1gridbox I can definitely see that. I originally had a paragraph that outlined that I feel like Lewis does lack that certain umpf that really puts him leagues above the rest. Other goat candidates were unbeatable in the best car and/or dragged underpowered cars into championship battles. We haven't really seem the same from Lewis. But I left it out because I figured it might contradict the argument I tried to make somewhat.
I think the way Lewis' Ferrari stint goes will ultimately decide how I rate him. If he's going to be competitive with a strong, but not overpowered car and with Leclerc as teammate, good for him. But if Newey indeed is going to Ferrari and creates another spaceship 3 seconds faster than the rest, and Ferrari sacrifices their starboy for him, it certainly wont help his case.
@Edelweiss1102 yep, I’m currently doing a stats sheet for someone else on the grid nowadays for a similar video this week
Im in complete agreement with you
Thanks mate, thanks for the kind words
He has one of the best rookie seasons in history, served on a silver platter I mean chrome Mclaren and the worst fanbase in the history of the sport
worst fanbase? LOL, team Verstappen takes that cake...and by a significant margin too.
@@davepastern I see you are all on your own here. Good luck!
@@tonlit4640 don't really care what others think.
@@davepastern I thought so already.
@@tonlit4640 not a Hamilton fan but Verstappen fans are the stereotypical racist pvv supporters so yeah they take the cake over the hysterical Hamilton fanboys.
Team LH is coming for you for spitting facts😂😂😂😂
Yea, I’m used to it with my other videos
@@nedzosf1gridbox Dissing our Lord and saviour? Racist!!!!!😂😂
@@KimiFan2002 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Fangio is the true GOAT, he won nearly 50% of all his races, 5 world titles, and was on the podium over 50% of the time, in the most sketch time of F1
To be fair Fangio had an abnormally high for that era finishing rate as he reached the chequered flag in 86% of races he entered, no other notable 50s driver got above 80, I think the next highest is Gonzalez
@@nedzosf1gridboxalso, Fangio won 5 titles in 4 DIFFERENT TEAMS, that’s something that i think we will never see again.
Also, Prost is my underrated goat, the guy beat the likes of Senna, Mansell, Lauda and Hill (not that great, but a champion nonetheless), and only lose to them in very close fashion.
A German in a German car unable to beat his rival, ever, was never going to be a thing, and you can make of that what you like.
Mercedes didn’t have the same nationality bias as other teams in terms of performance
@@nedzosf1gridbox They 'dynamited' Schumacher out of retirement to have an all German line up initially, or was that coincidence?
@johnshaw359 as I said they chose him for his nationality but not in terms of performance, nor with Nico afterwards
Lot of great takes. Some questionable like only looking at Brazil in 22, as then you could look at Singapore 23 with the Ferrari guys to say Sainz was better that year. Or lost on points during time as teammates to JB, was the same with Ocon beating Alonso over their 2 years. Alonso still clearly better. And Bottas too was actually a good driver especially on his day, but Lewis had that extra pace and consistency too which greats have.
Ultimately there isn’t really a GOAT. Can’t compare eras with difference in cars.
Great video tho. Very analytical, impartial and respectful above all 👍
Thanks for the kind words mate
totally agree
I’m glad
Max got 3 championships from 2. And TBF to Prost, he got screwed in '88, because despite Senna getting preferential treatment, he did score more points, but was screwed by an extremely asinine points system. Really Prost was 5 of 7.
Fair enough, I completely forgot about dropped points, Graham hill had that problem in ‘64 too
Saiye Rugara you said you ranked Hamilton 3rd and Vettel 6th because you based on achievement well mine I based it on their prime which is the reason why I ranked Vettel and Raikkonen are so high and I put them ahead of Hamilton and Alonso.
Wow, too many intentional omissions to take this half-baked "analysis" seriously.
Example, fails to mention how Verstappen crashed into him in Brazil 22 knocking hin down to p8 only to battle back in a dmaged vehicle to finish p2 behind Russell.
2023 Hamilton finished p3 in w14 rust bucket in the wdc to 2 red bull drivers in the most dominant car ever. Where was Alonso, Russell, Leclare, etc....😂
The mere fact that so many people dedicate so much time dissecting almost 2 decades worth Hamiltons career to highlight every little misstep he's had and the video isnt even 20 minutes long says it all.
Even this past race Canada 2024 he started p7 and still had the best race pace in the field to finish p4 whereas Alonso started ahead of him in p6 and is still on the track leading another DRS train.
These salty "analyst" are not even entertaining any more.
Cant wait for you to apply the same level of scrutiny and detail to any of the other so called greats over the span of their careers.
Also forgot to mention the 2018 Ferrari cheat season with the illegal fuel flows, the 2021 FIA crippling of the Mercedes rear floor to ensure RB had a competitive edge. The Engine freeze that has effectively given RB free reign for the past 4 years, the dominant RB where Seb Vettel won 4 championships in a row, from 2010 to 2013. The 2021 Brazil race where Hamilton started the sprint from the back of the grid and still won the race on Sunday. (Ok, he had a rocket engine). In the 2016 failure of a season, Hamilton had 12 pole positions, which is all max could manage in 2023 with the most dominant car in the history of the sport.
Hamilton has converted more than he has failed, when he has the opportunity. Hence the stats.
If I was to be critical of Hamilton, he is often crap at setting the car up, but can adapt to driving at a very decent pace with the crap set up. He is very slow at getting on the pace in most seasons but is one of the strongest finishers in the history of the sport. If the car is not capable of a win and has poor handling, his mind is usually not in the game, so he will be off the pace. (Happened in the Mclaren and now the Mercedes) If the car feels good, he will usually be one of the fastest on the track.
The good things about Hamilton. He is still one of the fastest men in the sport and he is more than a decade older than most of his competitors. (The age exception being Alonso). He is still in good physical condition. He has one of the highest race finish percentages in the history of the sport, still averaging above 90% after 341 race starts. If the Ferrari is anywhere near the RB at the end of the season, I am quite sure Hamilton will be capable of giving Max a hard time in 2025.
@@jjhatch69 Yes, this is the type of objective analysis given the title of this video. So many great points and proves that Hamilton isnt perfect but he has proven to be one of the best certainly in the past 20 years.
Every era has 1-2 drivers that can be called the GOAT but the fluid hypocritical application of criteria when Hamilton enters the debate shows how desperately some will dig to disprove what has been obvious for a decade now. Lewis is the GOAT or at minimum on that very short list across any era.
I failed to mention the crash between max and lewis in Brazil because surely the “goat” can stay ahead of his teammate and not get involved in such crashes in the first place. The 2023 merc was not a rust bucket, it was the second fastest car across the season. Where were Alonso, Russell and Leclerc? Alonso was getting podiums when Lewis wasn’t at the start of the season before his car fell off. George was churning out the stats I mentioned. Leclerc was in a Ferrari team that runs around like headless chickens. Also apart from Alonso none of the three you mentioned are anywhere near goat status so why are you mentioning them in the same vein as Lewis? Why not compare him to the other champion on the grid apart from Alonso, that being Max. Oh wait, that’s because he has no problem beating Perez who before going there was a fantastic upper midfield p driver, meanwhile Lewis can’t. And don’t talk about preferential treatment because a guy coming off the back of 6 titles and one of the closest battles in recent history won’t be equal in driver status to his new teammate.
Also you talk about the video length, I got 5 minutes in before I moved away from 2007 so I purposely skimmed over or didn’t explain parts afterwards as deeply which actually did Lewis a favour. Would you have preferred me to talk about him lying is the stewards In Melbourne 09 in excruciating detail, or the incidents with massa in 2011? Or the various incidents with Rosberg and Max. I actually did him better than I could’ve and you still complain
Funny how you mention at the start those cars having regulation changes or rule breaks to make other teams more competitive because even with those in 2018 Mercedes had a comfortable lead over Ferrari and 2018, and in 2021 were still joint quickest with Red Bull even despite rule changes. That rule change created the closest title fight between non teammates in nearly a decade so I think it was good. Also merc’s fault for not developing a solution around a new rule rather than just plodding along. Also you mention finishing percentages. Lewis has had the best cars in the best reliability era culminating in him retiring from on average one race per season. Not his fault since he can’t change the hand he’s dealt but it’s not like he created his good finishing rate himself
@@nedzosf1gridbox Reliability does have a big impact on the finishing percentage, so does binning the car. Hamilton has only ever driven Mercedes engine cars, which also contributes to the high finish percentage. Prior to 2021 max had more DNF's in 4 seasons than Hamilton had in 14 seasons. Part of this was that awful Renault engine as well as the continued development of what was at the time, an awful Honda engine. The other part was max's high rate of collisions, hence the Crashtappen tag.
Midfield driving does add to the crash tally. So does diving into gaps that are not there. Max was pulled in and lectured by Charlie whiting for his bad driving and Whiting got so fed up with max, he changed the rules in the braking zone, just to kerb max's behaviour. (A rule he still breaks in most seasons if he is not disappearing off into the sunset).
The 2018 season was very competitive with both Ferrari's, until the FIA discovered the fuel flow irregularity, highlighted by RB by the way. Once the fuel flow was corrected (in secret at the time), Mercedes disappeared into the sunset.
I agree with the rule changes to knobble Mercedes. We all want to see competitive racing, but it was RB who were suggesting what was needed to slow down the Mercedes to the FIA and the FIA listened. The funny thing is all teams agreed to the rule changes until they realized who gained the most from it. Cutting the rear floor screwed the low rake cars and aided the high rake cars. Only RB cars had a high rake. A master stroke by Newey. In 2021 Mercedes still managed to turn things around by mid-season, by adapting a higher rake and using the collapsable heave suspension to stall the diffuser at high speed. The swing back towards Mercedes led to the Massi debacle at the end of the 2021 season. We all know Bottas was average, but he was absolutely nowhere in 2021, whilst Hamilton was competitive. Newey stated that the 2021 RB was faster than the Mercedes and it was only Hamilton that was the difference. A tip of the hat from the goat of F1 engineering. (You missed that from your commentary). If you are ruthless, you say the Baku mistake cost Hamilton the championship and if you are more of a rules-based analyst, you would say Massi ultimately cost Hamilton the championship.
RB requested the heave suspension be removed for the 2022 new cars and all teams agreed with the exception of Renault and Mercedes. Had the ground effect cars been allowed to use the heave suspension, it is unlikely Mercedes would have gained an advantage, but it is something RB were unwilling to bet on. RB could not figure out the heave suspension, so getting it banned was a major achievement. As it happens, Mercedes really did not come into the 2022 season with a great car and continue going in the wrong direction. With the competitive advantage swinging too far towards RB, the FIA will be attempting to knobble them in the next few seasons and by the sound of things, the 2026 RB engine is not even close to the Ferrari or Mercedes version, so RB are trying to get a stay of execution for the 2026 rule changes. Something the FIA are unlikely to do. There are nuances to every season. It is never black or white and this is something that is missing from your arguments on Hamilton.
The other argument that is missing, is the financial cap. The big teams could spend their way into competitiveness in all seasons prior to the last 3. This has also led to RB keeping and maintaining an advantage over the rest of the field. From an engineering perspective I have been very impressed with how Mclaren have adapted to these rule changes in the last 12 months. An example that Mercedes should have followed.
I am a big Sir Lewis fan, but I think you may be right. But he is still in great company no matter. I think 2025 AD will potentially tell us a lot more.
What do you mean by AD? Is that an abbreviation of Abu Dhabi?
@@nedzosf1gridboxyear of our lord?
Ah ok I didn’t expect it to mean that in that context
Crazy you dont have more subs ive been watching your videos and they are solid and well thought out keep up the good work man
Thanks for the kind words mate
Sir Lewis Hamilton lives rent free in everyone's head, doesn't he? 😂😂😂
He doesn’t. Criticising a commonly held opinion and being able to critically think doesn’t mean someone has an agenda
I would say most of your points are somewhat valid, but I would say its a tad outrageous to say hes not close. I personally don't think he is the outright GOAT (Senna for me) either but I wouldn't be upset if people say he is, same with Schumi and Senna. Drives like Turkey 2020 and Silverstone 2008 are some of the best in the sports history and the Singapore 2018 Quali was a memory i still have to this day.
Every driver who is called the GOAT is being called that for a reason and although Lewis has had a rocky career at points due to him having the arguably the highest highs in the sport and some lows that weren't seen from Schumacher or Senna. For me its always so difficult to place drivers because of different scenarios and car performances. Imo i wouldn't say hes the GOAT but to say he isn't close is a tad too extreme, but everyone is entitled to an opinion and so fair enough.
I'm not Team LH before anyone says, I bloody hate both Team LH and Toxic max fans equally, they ruin the fun of the sport
I appreciate your points about toxicity but with the likes of Schumi and senna I can list off dozens of great performances. With Lewis that list is much shorter. He’s like Damon hill in the case of either winning amazingly or losing badly. This is why I can’t put him in the debate. Consistency is key for me
@@nedzosf1gridbox It is a strange case and I do respect your opinion but I would say Lewis's main weakness is adaptation more so then consistency, He struggles to adapt to new challenges quickly, example being that he has been consistently weak at the start of the seasons but by midway through he has bolted ahead of everyone else. This is the main reason he lost the championship to Nico in 2016 as he only recorded his 1st win in Monaco. I think he has had two stages of his career so clear that he seems like a different driver in both. I'd disagree with you saying that 2015 is his prime year as I would agree that it was the turning point for the 2nd stage but 2018 was an absolutely immense year that separated the talent of Hamilton against Vettel, Ferrari having the faster car for a decent chunk of the year yet lewis seemed unstoppable, not putting a foot wrong all season. I'd go as far to say that is a difficult season to beat for any driver.
Imo the rough top 5 would be: Senna, Schumi, Hamilton, Prost, Clark.
The reason for putting Lewis at 3 is because imo he has had the highest highs but the lowest lows out of these lot as so imo fits down the middle.
Again I respect your opinions and especially on the 2021 season and I do hope Lewis does well at Ferrari as I want a good championship battle again.
In conclusion, I would say he is inconsistent and consistant at the same time as he had periods of consistency (2017-20) then a period of inconsistency (2014-16). The real answer will differ from person to person but I just feel its harsh putting him below top 5. I just beg for a championship fight in the next few seasons😂😂
Top 4 car, midfield car, or bad car doesn't matter . What matter is what kind driver caliber you up against in a team either he is an all-time great, podium contender, ex-champion, young unproven pretender, a regular point score, a Saturday man only, and so on.
Total agreement… 👍👋👍👋👍👋
You said that Rosberg was his 1st worthy teammate.. Now was he worthy ? Yes but was he is 1st ( as said ) worthy ? See to me he 2 or guys that I would consider worthy .. Alonso ( 2 WDC’s ) Jenson Button ( 1 WDC ) and Rosberg himself ( 1WDC ) ..
No, I said Lewis was Nico’s first world class teammate, you got my words wrong
Lewis was so bloody lucky to have Bottas as a team-mate for that long.
I am not a Lewis Hamilton fan nor do I think Lewis Hamilton is the greatest, I rank Schumacher and Alonso both higher than him. However to act like he isn't close to them or in the conversation for greatest to ever do it is ridiculous. You can easily make the argument that he's in the top 3.
The entire basis of your criticism against Hamilton is his competitiveness against his teammates which is one of the absolute worst metrics to try to use when criticizing Hamilton. Throughout Hamilton's career he has routinely had teammates who were elite championship caliber drivers which is something almost every other all time great hasn't had to consistently deal with. The only other all time greats who had to deal with more competition within their teams were Prost and Senna. However you make it seem like Schumacher had to deal with similarly tough opposition which is just completely false. The only elite drivers Schumacher had to compete with in the same team were a long past his prime Piquet and Nico Rosberg. Rubens Barrichello isn't comparable at all to Jenson Button or Nico Rosberg, Barrichello's skill level was much more similar to a driver like Bottas who Hamilton dominated similarly to how Schumacher dominated Rubens.
The only pushover teammates Hamilton has had were Heikki and Valtteri. Hamilton's other teammates like Alonso, Button, Rosberg, and Russell were/are among the best drivers in the eras they competed in. You can't say the same thing at all about Schumacher, which I'm saying as someone who believes Schumacher is better than Hamilton. Hamilton also was either extremely competitive or comprehensively better than every elite driver he has been paired with. You seem to want to diminish the talent of Hamilton's teammates in order to make Hamilton's career look less impressive. Button, Rosberg, and Russell being that competitive with Hamilton just highlights how good they were/are as drivers.
There's this ongoing narrative that Russell has gotten the better of Hamilton during his time at Mercedes but this is objectively false. People make a huge deal about Russell narrowly beating Hamilton in the 2022 standings and then completely neglect to mention that Hamilton utterly dominated Russell in 2023 when Russell should have been doing better than he did 2022. Russell isn't a bum either, he's one of the best drivers on the grid and has proven multiple times he is an exceptionally fast driver. A young and in his prime elite driver sometimes getting the better of a close to 40 year old Lewis Hamilton who is clearly no longer in his peak does not say much about anything.
You make a big deal about bad years Hamilton has had when he wasn't even in a championship capable car but give no credence to the phenomenal seasons he has had like 2017 and 2018 which rank among the most impressive championship wins ever. You also give no credence to the fact Hamilton has won 7 titles while almost always having to fight with another elite driver in a competitive car. Hamilton's only easy championships were in 2019 and 2020. Most other multi world champions won most of their championships without any serious opposition to overcome. I'd argue Hamilton's championship wins are worth a lot more on average than a lot of other all time greats.
You may not like him, I certainly didn't back when he was winning. However he is certainly in the highest tier when it comes to the greatest drivers in the sport's history and I think that's undeniable no matter how annoying him and his fanbase can be.
Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button aren’t elite. Also you say teammate comparisons are awful, yet they are the only empirical ones you can make. You then proceed to base the rest of your argument on Schumacher’s teammates. I did give credence to his great seasons, you just chose not to listen. I said the likes of 2015 were very good. 2017 and 18 weren’t that special like you suggested. The numbers prove Russell has matched or beaten Lewis even in 2023, the qualifying and race gaps prove that. Even if that wasn’t the case, a seven time champion should be a level above every teammate he has, even the other champions. Lewis hasn’t done that consistently. He’s only had a complete measure of his teammate in eight of his 18 seasons. 2007 Alonso was equal, 2009 he only started beating kovalainen consistently when the car got good, proof he can’t perform well when the chips are down. In 2010 Jenson had way more unluckiness yet finished less than 30 points behind. Lewis causes countless incidents in 2011 and blamed most on others wrongly. 2012 he did well given the circumstances. 2013 Nico matched him and took more wins. Took him to a title decider in 2014, Lewis had a great season in 2015, then lost in 2016. He whitewashed Bottas then was equal or worse than Russell since 2022. If you take out the seasons he had with Bottas as a teammate he’s only consistently beaten his teammates if 3 of his 13 seasons. No matter how you look at it that’s not GOAT material at all. Alonso is the only driver he should be near in performance yet at points he was slower than Kovalainen in bad machinery in 09, only beat Jenson on merit once out of three seasons, only beat Rosberg on merit once out of four times, and hasn’t yet beat Russell on merit really. The likes of Schumacher, Fangio, Clark, Lauda, Prost and senna never lost to teammates who were also all time GOATs. Meanwhile Lewis only had one properly world class teammate and has a worse record than all of them. Empirically and statistically he’s not in the conversation because he’s too inconsistent. Silverstone 2008 is pretty much the only race from his career where I go “Wow, that was a GOAT worthy drive”. Meanwhile every other driver in the conversation has multiple examples.
@@nedzosf1gridbox "Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button aren't elite": Said with no argument to say why they weren't elite. They were objectively among the highest performing and successful drivers when they were competing. If winning a world championship and being a consistent race winner doesn't make you an elite driver then what on Earth does?
I never said teammate comparisons were bad to make or invalid, just that your particular argument regarding Hamilton's performance against teammates was bad. I said that trying to use teammate matchups as a way to say Hamilton isn't that good was awful because he has objectively done very well against a wide array of teammates most of which were extremely good drivers. Strawman; speaking of choosing not to listen.
No the numbers actually don't prove that Russell matched Hamilton in 2023. The numbers show he finished 59 points behind Hamilton in a season where Hamilton outperformed every driver not in a Red Bull when the Mercedes was on average the 3rd best car that season. Russell was extremely close if not slightly faster in qualifying that year but during the races he was almost always slower than Hamilton. He also made way more mistakes while Hamilton made close to none at all. You then proceed to make the point Hamilton can't perform when the chips are down when that's exactly what he did in 2023. He regularly finished on the podium and outperformed drivers in cars that were objectively faster than that Mercedes, which was notorious for being inconsistent and very difficult to drive. A textbook example of Hamilton performing when the chips were down.
"Even if that wasn’t the case, a seven time champion should be a level above every teammate he has, even the other champions." This is such a ridiculous point and makes no sense lol. You act like there can be only one driver on the entire grid who is competing at the highest level. If you had put Alonso, Raikkonen, or Montoya at Ferrari in the 2000s then Schumacher wouldn't have been another level above them even if he is an all time great. Sure he probably would have edged them out and beaten them but he would have had fierce competition and would have lost a good few races. Rubens managed to be a match for Schumacher every now and then it's not crazy at all to suggest had one of the best drivers of the era been put along side him that he would have been seriously challenged the same way Hamilton was when he was teamed with exceptional drivers.
"he only started beating kovalainen consistently when the car got good, proof he can’t perform well when the chips are down" Even if this was true, which it isn't this isn't the huge knock against Hamilton you think it is. When the car isn't good is when a driver's performance matters least, it's not anywhere near as damning than if the car is good and the driver underperforms. Performing when the car is good is what actually matters because that's when you can get good results. A bad car lowers the skill ceiling between drivers and prevents drivers from tapping into their full potential.
"Lewis causes countless incidents in 2011 and blamed most on others wrongly" This is just an irrelevant jab at Hamilton's personality and way of conducting himself, showing me that you probably have some other personal motive behind your desire to downplay Hamilton's career. Schumacher also caused a lot of incidents and hardly ever took accountability for it. Drivers are egotistical that's not unique to Hamilton.
You love bringing up Button and showing how he outperformed Lewis yet Lewis did better against Alonso than he did against Button. By your standards and by your own logic that would make Button better than Alonso but something tells me you wouldn't make that argument.
Hamilton scored double the points that Heikki did in 2009, you can't cherry pick the parts of the season where Hamilton wasn't doing well and then use that as an argument to say Hamilton isn't that good, what type of logic is that? If I singled out times where drivers were underperforming I could make anyone look bad. How about I go down the entire list of all time greats and single out spells in their career where they were losing to teammates? Alonso struggled against Trulli and Fischella at times, it's not unheard of for even the best to go through periods where they are struggling with the car and they have less of an edge over their teammate as a result.
Guess what other all time great Jenson Button beat in the standings? Fernando Alonso. If we are going to disingenuously single out times when the sports greatest drivers weren't performing at their best maybe we should be arguing about why Jenson Button is actually a GOAT.
Your last point about all time great drives is extremely subjective and nearly impossible to prove in any objective way. That being said I'd argue his 2008 British GP win is in the conversation for greatest F1 drive ever. Singapore 2018 and Hockenheim 2018 were also world class drives.
The only reason Hamilton's track record against teammates isn't as good as other all time greats is because he has been put up against objectively much higher performing drivers. You want to use Hamilton's performances against teammates while misrepresenting the talent level he had to compete with. Most of Hamilton's teammates were top drivers, most of Schumacher's weren't.
@turdferguson3803 95% of your arguments are non sensical. The idea that a seven time champion shouldn’t be dominant or at least consistently superior is utterly absurd. By “not elite” I mean Jenson and Nico barely break into the top 15 OAT yet it’s somehow OK that Lewis only beat them 2 out of 7 times comfortably. You’re barking up the wrong tree mate. If most of Lewis’s teammates were top drivers, I’d argue the same for Michael. Yes Nelson was his only champion teammate but the likes of Barrichello and massa, especially Rubens were championship potential drivers before Michael became their teammates. Michael had a higher percentage of full time multiple time race winning teammates than Lewis. Schumacher’s teammates combined had 80 race wins, Lewis’s have 82, despite having less races nowadays. The idea that Schumacher had massively worse teammates is stupid, you just want to downplay him despite Lewis having a lot of similarities.
@@nedzosf1gridbox You're calling my arguments non-sensical while you think singling out individual times in a drivers career when they underperformed is a valid and not dishonest argument. An elite driver isn't the same as an all time great and that's not what I was implying, you can be an exceptionally fast and competitive driver without being ranked within the top 20 to ever do it. It's not crazy to say that an elite driver can be competitive with an all time great either, pair any all time great with one of the best drivers on the grid at any given time and they're going to have a fight on their hands. No driver is so good that they can constantly dominate all the best drivers on the field when in the same machinery. Thinking that is what is actually non-sensical, the margins between the best drivers in the sport are extremely close. If you replaced a thoroughly mediocre driver like Perez with an elite driver like Leclerc or Russell then Verstappen would only be winning 60-70% of the time instead of 90-100% of the time.
Nothing about Barrichello's career indicates that he was as good as Button or Rosberg. His career is extremely comparable to Bottas and by every measurable metric Button and Rosberg showed way more talent than Rubens. I'll grant you that Massa was an elite driver, however when Massa and Schumacher were teammates Massa wasn't nearly as good as he would eventually become a couple years later. When Hamilton was teamed with Rosberg and Button they were both highly experienced and in their prime.
"Michael had a higher percentage of full time multiple time race winning teammates than Lewis" Man you love cherrypicking to make your arguments look better than they actually are. Button and Rosberg won more races and were actual championship winners, acting like they wouldn't be a greater challenge than two dedicated 2nd drivers is just denial. "full time multiple race winner" lol
I have no incentive to downplay anything. I think Schumacher is better than Hamilton, not because of teammate comparisons but because of how incredible his 1994 and 1995 championships were winning with what clearly wasn't the best car. Trying to argue that Schumacher is the best because of his dominance over his teammates would be similarly stupid because Ferrari purposefully never paired him with another elite driver.
@turdferguson3803 you said “no good driver is so good that they can constantly dominate all the best drivers in the field in the same machinery”. Schumacher did (even beating far better cars as you mentioned), in 1994, 95, 97, 2000, and 2006.
Fangio dominated the likes of farina and Moss and beat Ascari in weaker machinery in 1953. Jim Clark best the likes of Graham hill, John Surtees, Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme, and got two perfect seasons. Lauda consistently beat the likes of Reutemann, Regazzoni, Hunt (despite missing two races), John Watson at Brabham, and technically Prost. We all know the stories of Prost and senna. You act like the other GOAT’s also had struggles, but the truth is they didn’t. As bad as the going got, with the exception of Lauda returning from a 3 year break, none of the others ever got beaten by a teammate straight up. You fail to understand that, and they regularly outperformed what their machinery should’ve been capable of. Lewis simply doesn’t do such a thing.
Dutchman here..... just keep talking.....😂😂😂 if it aint dutch it aint much 😉😄
I'm not a Hamilton or even a Rosberg fan and I agree with your overall point but your point about Rosberg "not being nearly as hyped up as Lewis" and "Rosberg was similar to de Angelis etc" kinda sucks dude. Rosberg won a championship fair and square.
He never made a good reason for why it was a bad thing for Hamilton be challenge so hard by rosberg, he just kinda swept him under the rug. Regardless of him saying he’s not bias his actions said something else in the video Forsure
Rosberg did win a championship fair and square absolutely. All those drivers I listed like de Angelis never beat their legendary teammates yet Nico did, so that means Lewis isn’t the GOAT or Rosberg is incredibly underrated.
I did make a good reason. Nico was an upper midfield car driver his entire career before the Mercedes got dominant. He beat Nakajima (well done that’s easy) and beat a 40 year old Schumacher (again well done). He hadn’t had a proper teammate we could judge him against since his rookie season. Someone who hadn’t made a big front running impact in the first 6-7 years of his career should never have happened. Barrichello never challenged Schumacher for a title, nor did Irvine on merit, or Herbert, or Massa in 2006. Senna, Prost, Lauda, Fangio and Clark etc had no such qualms like Lewis did beating teammates
@@nedzosf1gridbox Fair and square? Are you forgetting how the garages were swapped over that year, so the garage crew loyal to Rosberg then had Hamilton's Car, while the Garage used to winning, got Rosberg's. A lot happened in that 2016 season to make it so.
@@chrisliddiard725 the garages got swapped over because of other factors. Controversial or not there were no effects that Hamilton wouldn’t have enjoyed the previous two years
Prost & Lauda my fav drivers 🤠
So 1984 was your favourite season? Or most conflicting
@@nedzosf1gridbox Wow yes that was a great season between Lauda and Prost 🤠
I do not cheer for a driver but the racing and overall season is what matters to me.
Kinda like Hamilton vs Verstappen 2021, that last race was wow!
@user-jy3io4iz2p fair enough
Is the fact that he is vegan adds anything to the calculation because
he is technically at a disadvantage to the other driver just like to know
Pahahaha that’s something my data didn’t factor in
Maybe being vegan gives him superpowers, and in reality, he's just a mere average driver.
@ndh06 😂😂
The GOAT? Graham Hill, the only driver who got the triple crown of motorsports. No one shall be called a goat until they do that.
I did a video on him already tbf
Don't mention he lied to the stewards
Australia 2009
So what.....im sure you would have done the same thing.
and Schumacher didn't cheat? Or Prost? or Senna?
@@davepastern Schumacher and Senna did.
@@daphnelovesL so did Prost (Suzuka 89, caused the chicane accident deliberately).
Lowkey the most facts video you've made, good job
Glad you think so, thanks for the kind words
Hamilton is a great driver. But i think he gets bit too much respect just because he had excellent team licking his a** for multiple seasons. At first they had to bully Nico and then they did it to Bottas. Now he's crying when the team isn't performing as well anymore and isn't licking his a** anymore.
They didn’t bully Nico
Nico had 1 title fight with Lewis and quit because he knew he couldn’t beat him again
Bottas was brought in so that never happens again
Every great driver has always had a #2
Max and Checo
Fernando and Massa
Schumacher and Rubens
Hamilton and Bottas
They weren’t “licking his ass”
They were backing the best driver
Lewis is leaving Mercedes so it makes perfect sense why they’d back off of him
Getting trounced by Osama Bin Russell.
@@chrisccc22 That happens when you can no longer do "Valtteri, it's jAmEs"
As far as the GOAT discussion is concerned lately I have looked it from the perspective of what GOAT-candidates achieved in seasons they did NOT win the championship and here Schumacher, Senna and Prost have many either many 2nd places and/or heroics in cars that were not the best Hamilton has yet to match. For example take Schumacher's 98 campaign or his drive at Spain in 96, former was a notable effort and latter a legendary drive. Then there are drivers like Alonso, Räikkönen and Prost in particular who could have easily won many more championships than they did. Personally I'm in Schumacher is the GOAT boat but after taking a closer look I'm starting to think Prost was the best and still manages to be somewhat underrated despite 4 championships and many 2nd places. Oh and here is a kicker take a look at his teammates and the fact he never had a "Rubens" or "Bottas" there.
Prost can't be the GOAT, every time it rains he most likely would lost.
Lewis Hamilton no doubt is a great driver I would ranked him ahead of Alonso and Verstappen but I wouldn't put him ahead of Vettel and Raikkonen like you said in your Daniel Ric latest video while Daniel Ric had the edge over Vettel it would of been closed and not been too far ahead. Lewis Hamilton getting beaten by Button, Rosberg and George Russell is more embarassing than Vettel losing to Charles Leclerc and Daniel Ricciardo.
The same Riccardo that couldn't out qualifying a rookie Max.
I knew Lewis hater aren't logical.
All of Lewis teammates are legit champions or champion material.
By 2029 you will see the truth.
Kovalainen was championship material? Are you off your head? And Bottas? 😂😂😂😂
Great content. Your views are pretty much spot on. My GOAT, Jim Clark. a Gentleman on and off the track. Was fortunate enough to see him race.
Lucky bugger. How did it feel to win the 1980 world championship?
@@alanjones7578 Your Goat shame isn't the real Goat with the GOAT record Sir Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton
@@F1Guy-GuyStatistically The Real GOAT LH44 🇬🇧
Who said he was the best? He's not even the best of British, multiple WC means nothing when you have a car so dominant, same with verstappen now.
What about Fangio, Clark and Schumacher. I agree with your opinion but your explanation is poor
@@nedzosf1gridbox what about them? all prob more talented than Hamilton, Senna will always be number 1, he was just too good imo. I also think that Hunt had more talent than Hamilton. I really don't think you can rate any driver of the last 10-15 years as one of the greats because F1 is primarily dominated by one team these days.
F1 has always been dominated by particular teams, that’s why Ferrari won on average a constructors title every 3.5 years until 2008. Also up until 2008 more than half of all championships ever were won by just 3 teams. 35 out of like 50 between Ferrari, McLaren and Williams
I don't know about the Verstappen claim. He's driving pretty amazing. It would be one thing if his teammates were finishing second all the time to qualify that. No teammate has been able to come close. They are no slouches either. Look at Max at Toro Roso. So impressive. Add to the fact that he has matured into a faultless driver for the most part. He's that good.
Schuey did the same to his teammates at Benetton.
Yeh couldnt agree more, 2023 with Max dominance to me is what really shows the difference over how Lewis... isnt the same "driving robot" of the likes of Max and others
He tends to have slow starts on the season and just requires more stuff to align well, 2023 tbh he did well but at the same time got slightly flattered over Russell being his usual self and doing mistakes at times (tbh this is also why I dont put George alongside Lando or Charles or even Sainz)
Fair honest takes mate
Saying Hamilton is the same driving robot like Max and others when Max and others are not robots either is biased.
Older drivers tend to not take well to rule changes. As you age, you get settled into your driving style and take longer unlearn and adapt. Unless you're Alonso, who seems to drive anything fast outside of an Indycar.
If it's true that Newey is going to Ferrari, I foresee Hamilton struggling with Newey's high rake philosophy.
I think it's really hard to say 100% who is the best driver unless you have an actual model and lap times of every grand prix driver who has ever turned a lap. The team comparison method can turn into a game of rock paper scissors and each formula required different types of skills but that's obvious. Lauda definitely shouldn't be ahead of Lewis because Ronnie Peterson destroyed him and Jean-Pierre Beltoise (such a nobody that I had to search his name) beat Lauda too. Lewis has beaten all his teammates head-to-head in race trim apart from Alonso (6 - 9) and maybe Russell after this year but that's to be decided.
The fact you don’t know JPB says a lot. In an era where there was a stark difference between lower formula and top cars it was often difficult for newcomers to adjust, not many did. In Lauda’s rookie season Beltoise won by 37 seconds from jacky Ickx, a rain master, in the wet at Monaco. You can’t say that he isn’t a good driver. Peterson is also criminally underrated and had already come runners up in 1971, unfair to compare him to a rookie Lauda in the context
i would really love to know where ,as of now, max lies in your all time list?
Currently 11th but at the end of this season he should overtake Stewart for tenth
12th probably
Osama Bin Russell? A fellow RPM enjoyer I see!
Absolutely
Team L-Hache
His Stats may not show it but Senna is my greatest driver of all time.
Each to their own, senna had his moments but for me lacked the ultra consistency of Prost or Lauda of a similar generation
God, you really don't like Nico Rosberg, eh?
I’m indifferent to him to be fair
Juan Manuel Fangio in my opinion is the goat
Fair opinion, he’s 2nd for me behind Jim Clark but absolutely Fangio is in with a shout
I believe so as well.
@@model101t800 Your Opinion but not real fact Hamilton
So many babies in the comment secrion...I love it. 😂😂😂
Wah…
Sure, you're not Hamilton nor Verstappen fan, but you're definitely Leyton House fan.
There's something about that cool shade of blue, eh?
I just love the livery. A colour that’s not used enough in motorsports. I also like the banzai and unique early Benetton liveries with pastel light colours
@@nedzosf1gridbox I loved the Tyrrell 012 and the Jordan 191. Those green's just popped. The Leyton House blue was incredible too. Ivan Capelli and Maurício Gugelmin. Almost pulled one off.
Well said ol boy!
Thanks (I’m 19 lol)
Goat, will change person to person the era that you watch will affect this, being an old bloke Hunt Louder Andretti, where brilliant had great back story and personality’s that you just don’t get today Senna is my favourite but what Schumacher is the GOAT he built 2 teams no one else can say that
Good points.
Thanks
This is just some hate.. I agree on Lewis not being the GOAT,.. but this,..
Sorry mr psychologist crazy how you know my feelings better than I do
You didn't factor in racism in any of this. If you went to an all black formula 1 team. 500 people in total. From team principal to your ko driver, your telling me the possibility that your all black team wouldn't put preferential treatment to your team mate who was also black in a predominantly black country with black pundits etc. Or did the racism disappear the second the first black driver stepped into a formula 1 car? He the greatest driver just like mohammed ali had his critics at the time how are you any different from them.
It’s not about race. Motorsport doesn’t care about who you are, it cares about how fast you are. Michele mouton was one of the fastest drivers in group B rally in an era of sexism and she beat those who were sexist towards her most of the time. Lewis was a British driver in a British team that he had been a junior driver in for a decade. Trying to argue that Alonso was actually preferred purely because of Hamilton’s skin colour is a disservice to everyone who’s actually experienced racism rather than lying to make your point
@@nedzosf1gridbox if any of what you said was true the percentage of black racing drivers at the pinnacle of the sport would be the same as the percentage of football players at the top or boxers or any other sport where racial barriers have already been broken. He is literally the only black guy there. All none white people that now work in formula 1 are a direct result of him being there. To claim no racism is absolutely 100% crazy bro! No to mention him visibly backing women too. One of the qualities that leads so many to the conclusion he is the greatest. And him being a British driver doesn't protect him from racism. Take it a from a British man. I will subscribe to your channel
@jvolney the reason why there’s less black people is because the majority of the black population in the world live in poor countries, you need money to race
@@nedzosf1gridbox thanx for repeating what you heard somewhere else but ive heard that before. Drivers baring lance stroll dont normally pay for themselves. Other people do so your proving my point even more cause no one is backing the black drivers. Even tho Lewis hamilton shows investors what happens when you do black drivers.
You’ve just blatantly lied twice there mate. 1) I do my own research so don’t assume I’m lazy. 2) Even if there are drivers like stroll who back their own careers, you still need money to get onto the racing ladder. Karting is up to 250 grand a season and sponsors won’t cover everything even in junior formulas unless you’re a hot shit generational talent. There are several black or mixed drivers in junior series like Ugo Ugochukwu, Arvid Lindblad, and Josh Mason and co., and in series like Indycar and NASCAR there’s more representation because there’s less financial barriers, but black drivers are still a minority because most countries that are predominantly black are poor sub Saharan African ones. Going back to your point, if it’s all sponsorship (which it plainly isn’t), then in those regions there is ZERO racing infrastructure whatsoever, so how can they get started. Seeing diversity at the lower levels is becoming more common, I commentated at a local kart championship and saw I think 2 black drivers out of 40. The truth is if you want to advance past karting without loads of money you need either generational wealth or talent, and that’s hard for any driver to come by. Racism has played a part in motorsport, see Wendell Scott’s first win in NASCAR in 1964 and Alonso fans at Barcelona testing in 2008, but it’s not a thing in the team selection process of junior teams. If anything nowadays black drivers actually more likely to be selected over a similarly talented white one for PR and sponsorship reasons. Most of the reasons there’s less black people in racing is because you need lots of money. That’s why sports like football and basketball are so much more diverse, you don’t need half a million pounds of equipment, only a ball. Until racing becomes less expensive those from mostly poor demographics simply won’t compete at the level of others in motorsport. It’s like asking why there’s no drivers from the Pacific islands, or North Korea. It’s not racism, it’s the fact there’s zero infrastructure to support them
Ferrari will prove this is wrong......or not.
I'm still puzzled by their decision. They had amazing chemistry with Chas and Carlos. They worked great together. Now they are going to bring in someone that is notably toxic to teammates.
Chaz is a winner for Ferrari at Monza. That is hero status to the Tifosi. Hamilton will need to accomplish that almost instantly to become Driver 1.
Amazing analysis and what I've been telling people that start this argument with me. The only point I don't agree with is that Lewis shouldn't be considered above Alonso, as evidence of this, Alonso Rarely lost to a teammate and is renowned for destroying other drivers. Even with worst machinery. And to be fair Alonso hasn't had championship winning cars in the same amount as Lewis. Lewis had 11, Alonso barely 2.
The only stains against Alonso’s record are 2004, where Trulli was beating him before he got sacked, 2007, and the last few races of this season. To be fair he’s had 4 championship winning cars, in 2005-7 and 2010. Where Lewis is really good, in great cars Fernando struggles and where Lewis struggles, Fernando is really good in the midfield and with crap cars
@@nedzosf1gridbox Understandable, but I must differ, the Renault was great in half of the time in 2005 and 2006, it wasn't superior to the McLarens and the Ferraris, it was competitive with them, 2007 was his first true best car, and we know how famously Ron Dennis made Alonso's life there a nightmare, it was him not only against the rest of the grid, against a favored Lewis, but also his own team, and he tied with Lewis. 2010 you could say he had a competitive car against the RedBulls, but not superior, Ferrari got 3rd in constructors. I see superiority cars like when the RedBulls were almost 2 seconds faster than the second best, or Mercedes from 2014-2017, 2019-2020. Ferrari 2002 is another example I remember. 2010 Alonso lost because of Ferrari's poor strategy, not cause of Alonso's ability or Vettel's, Webber had a better shot as well and they bottled both of them. Lewis also had a better McLaren than Alonso's Ferrari's yet Alonso destroyed him with a worst car 4 years in a row, until the turbo hybrids in 2014. Mercedes had no competition and F1 became boring, to the point you knew on Saturdays what results to expect between Nico or Lewis. There's no way you can put Lewis ahead of Alonso when he has been blessed with superior machinery half of his time in F1 and has been beaten multiple times. Yet like you said in the video, the greats have never almost never lost against a teammate or anyone in the best machinery. I know for a fact that you replace Nico and Bottas in those Mercedes with Alonso, Lewis doesn't win half of those championships.
Very misleading non-sense put together, because Buton came out with more points than Lewis you just concluded that he is not the greatest because from your own words this never happened with Shumi and others bla bla bla......Did Shumi ever had a World Champion teammate? Who amount all Shumi was close to Jenson Buton? Also why you judge Lewis against Jenson in 1 season? I believed they were teammate for 3 seasons, and who came on top? pretty sure youdon't want to answer that question...nonsenses
Schumacher had two world champion teammates, Nelson Piquet and Nico Rosberg, only one less than Lewis. He had four championship runners up drivers, Riccardo Patrese who was Mansell’s subordinate in 1992, Irvine in 1999 then Barrichello who was his own subordinate, and Massa who got his “silver medal” after Michael initially retired. Only one of Schumacher’s full time teammates didn’t have a win, that being Martin Brundle. So yes, Schumacher had several world champion teammates and more who could’ve easily got one. I didn’t judge Lewis just against Jenson in their 2011 season together. Across the three years they had together Jenson had 15 more points, despite having the same number of mechanical retirements in 2010, Jenson having double Lewis’s mechanical failures in 2011 and Button having a particularly bad season in 2012. “Who amounts from Schumi’s teammates to Jenson Button?” Definitely Nelson Piquet, and I’d argue both Barrichello and massa were close. It took for Schumacher to come back from three seasons out of F1, be the oldest driver in F1 for 37 years since Graham hill in 1975, have to get used to a completely new tyre compound and car construction, to lose to a teammate, even then he was very unlucky in his Mercedes stint. Meanwhile Lewis lost to his world champion teammate on debut when Schumacher was faster than piquet right out of the gate, then lost to Kovalainen in the first half of 2009, then lost to button overall, then only convincingly beat Rosberg one season out of three, losing a title to him, then only destroyed Bottas because he was a number two, then got beaten by George Russell two seasons out of three. Schumacher never lost to a teammate before Rosberg, meanwhile if you discount Lewis’s seasons with Bottas as teammate, he’s only convincingly beaten his teammate 3 out of 13 seasons, even including Bottas it’s only 8 out of 18. You’re not goat material if you’re consistently struggling to beat or losing to several one time champions who weren’t in the conversation for the greatest
The Nico hate in this video, god damn
@@EmilForsberg_GRYBO I don’t remember hating particularly on him
@@nedzosf1gridbox well you said he shouldn't even have been in the possition to win a world championship in the first place, quite the low ball considering how much you hyped up Schumacher and the fact that Nico beat him 3 times out of 3, yeah 2011 was close but 2010 and 2012 was not
@EmilForsberg_GRYBO I recommend you watch my video on Schumacher’s Mercedes return. I think that by 2013, Nico was seen as a great midfielder, not not one of the best, similar to Heidfeld, and the fact that he equalled or beat Lewis in three out of four seasons says more about Lewis than it does about Nico
@@nedzosf1gridbox aight maybe I will
If he isn't even then why do top teams keep hiring him and they know more than armchair pundits
Gerhard Berger was hired by Ferrari, McLaren and twice Benetton, David Coulthard by Williams and McLaren. Are you suggesting they should be in the debate too?
Comparing apple's to oranges, let's be honest verstappen walks on water I wonder why?...and yes it is what you think it is
I agree that Lewis isn't the GOAT, at least in terms of outright performance (I rate Senna, Fangio and Clark all ahead of him). In terms of statistics, converting a car into wins/poles/WDCs/WCCs etc, he most certainly is the GOAT.
Now, to counter some of your very biased points:
1. Alonso was a 2x WDC, with a large number of races under his belt leading into the 2007 season. Hamilton was a rookie with no F1 drives to his name. That's advantage Alonso, irrespective of Hamilton doing testing in pre-season.
2. Alonso is a serial liar. He's also a serial antagonist. He is NOT a team player.
3. Schumacher vs Piquet? Piquet was always overrated. He is the weakest of the 3x WDC imho. Schumacher, despite my dislike for him, was always the better of the 2.
4. Lewis vs Button - Lewis won 2 of the 3 years. Both in qualifying and race trim. But Hamilton haters such as yourself like to spread lies and make it out that Button was the better driver.
5. Prost got beaten by Senna in 1988 and 1989 (with Prost and Balestre cheating in 1989). And all of this with Senna moving to what was Prost's team. And Prost was considered the best at the time too I might add.
I don't know how old you are, but I have probably been following F1 closely for longer than you have been alive (42 years and counting).
If I had to rate the drivers over the years they would be in this order:
1. Senna
2. Fangio and Clark equally, a hair's breath behind Senna and I mean a hair's breath
3. Prost
4. Schumacher/Hamilton
Assuming you know more because you’ve been watching longer is arrogant at best and stupid at worst. You can lie about me being “biased” all you want but I have no affiliations with any drivers on the current grid. Alonso did have experience and I did mention that several times but to ignore the testing Lewis did is stupid. Jacques Villeneuve did a similar thing and got similar results in his rookie season.
I don’t see why your second point matters. Fernando may not have been a team player but that doesn’t matter when fighting for a title. Lewis also wasn’t a team player in Hungary before Fernando held him up.
Your points on piquet are purely opinions, and Schumacher beating a three time champion who was still winning races (even if in very lucky fashion in Canada) is mighty impressive and shouldn’t be overlooked just because you don’t like piquet.
Jenson got more points than Lewis across the three years they were teammates, the bad luck Jenson got in 2010 counters what Lewis had. He was quicker than Jenson on average by 2 tenths across their three years despite qualifying being Jenson’s Achilles heel, and finished a few seconds ahead on average. This ignores reliability and things that weren’t Lewis’s fault. Well done for beating a guy who struggles to get into most peoples top 15 66% percent of the time you’re teammates.
Senna beat Prost fairly in 1988 but in 1989 even if Suzuka didn’t happen, Ayrton crashed out in Adelaide which would’ve lost him the title anyway even if he won in Japan. Famously senna always moved where Prost was despite Prost moving away from him to Ferrari. Funny how you mention Alain’s intentional crash but not Ayrton’s. I don’t care if it was revenge, it was dangerous and in that era potentially fatal. Prost had a nowhere team in 1991 and took a sabbatical, really following senna before going to Williams for 1993 which means we can’t pair them again. In the modern points system that rewards consistency and not a “win it or bin it” mentality Prost wins eight titles. Senna being number 1 in your opinion is OK and you’re entitled to it you just need better justification rather than the fact you’re an old man
@@nedzosf1gridbox Schumacher was, and always will be, a CHEAT. Should have been banned from the sport.
Fernando is well, his own worst enemy. People fawn all over Alonso, but the truth is, he was well and truly matched in 2007 by a rookie. A rookie.
See, the longer you do something, the typically better you become at it.
Hamilton outscored Button in both 2010 and 2012. Hamilton has always been sensitive to outside influences and this is his weakness. Verstappen has better focus in this respect. Scherzinger was a terrible influence on Lewis in his younger years.
1989 had very bad reliability for Senna, similar to Hamilton in 2016. If you'd been alive, and watched the season, you'd know this. Senna was clearly head and shoulders above Prost in 1989. Suzuka 1990 was payback for 1989. And I don't have a problem with it. Revenge is a dish best served cold (Klingon proverb). Prost was a sly prick. I'll repeat it for you slowly, since you're a bit thick it seems - prost was a sly prick.
Senna went to Williams in 1994, and a shit team it was too.
Prost was a chicken shit who vetoed Senna being alongside him at Williams.
Now onyer bike fuckwit.
So Alonso wasn't a world-class driver! Also, 2016 Toto switched pit crews and engineers that year that Nico won the championship. I believe that Toto knew that Nico was going to retire anyway!
Nico literally said he only retired because he won and that was all he wanted. Switching pit crews shouldn’t stop a seven time champion winning another one it’s a minor detail. And I don’t understand your point about Alonso.
i d think Hamilton is not the goat but he is better than Alonso !
absolutley true Hamilton is a bit overated im not saying hes a bad driver team LH he is a good driver hes just not the goat watch out for the #F1XED channel hes gonna be a right knob again and call you out for being racist or some BS really good vid
Thanks mate for understanding the point of this video, many haven’t taken your lead
@@nedzosf1gridbox because im not a biased englishman im a Swiss and ferrari fan im so sick off team LH thats also the reason why im not fooking foward to Lewis being in ferrari
@CV19_YT haha, fair enough mate, I’m currently working on another piece critical of a current F1 driver
@@nedzosf1gridbox ok as i said watch out for those F1XED Team LH channels anyone who criticises lewis they call you out and they wanna cancel you for being (racist or some BS) they almost did it to me thank god i deleted my comment as soon as someone told me he was gonna cancel me there so childish it s beyond special
Hamilton is a great driver ,but i think in my opinion Verstappen is a much more versatile driver and i would not ewen call Verstappen the goat !
@19megamustaine85
What makes Max more versatile than Lewis ?
@@JDeadwyler getting more out of the Rb19 than Hamilton from the W11 ,is that not enough ?
@@19megamustaine85 is it ? Ok fair enough but how about Mr Hamilton almost winning the title his rookie year .. Did Max almost win the title his rookie year, Has Max won a WDC with 2 different teams ? If I’m not mistaken Lewis has.. you do realize that the fastest qualifying lap ever recorded belongs to said W11 and who was the driver ? take a guess ? see as far as I’m concerned neither driver is versatile than each other because both drivers have only race and competed in one type of race discipline .. versatility would be that both raced in other type of race disciplines ..
The best ever highest level performance athlete Is Lewis Hamilton F1
Talking about highest performance athletes he’s nowhere near. Michael Phelps in swimming, Usain Bolt in sprinting etc
@@nedzosf1gridbox Your 2 selected from the Olympics that's completely different to the world of F1 as the athletes you've mentioned haven't lasted as long as that Hamilton guy in terms of still at there physical peak as there both retired a while ago and Hamilton started F1 2007 way before them starting Olympics and guess what he is still the best driver even up till now competing
@F1Guy-Guy Lewis hasn’t been the best driver for a while. Olympics are still sports. What about Sebastien Loeb, a nine time champion of WRC who first competed in 1999 and was still winning in 2022
@@nedzosf1gridbox Rally is not the pinnacle of Motorsports F1 is the daddy and Lewis Hamilton has always been the best driver ever seen in an F1 car and holds all of the near impossible records achieved by a poor black kid from a council estate in England not bad
@@F1Guy-Guy no category is the pinnacle of motorsport, NASCAR is the pinnacle of stock cars, F1 the pinnacle of international open wheel racing, WRC of rally. Numbers aren’t everything
Your wheel knowledge stinks buddy.
You use the term “wheel knowledge” unironically. Your point is invalid. Come up with something proper
SPAIN A RACING INCEDENT😂😂😂😂😂, Don't care wat you name it, max did win because of that crash
Max did win because of that crash, don’t know how that doesn’t make it a racing incident but ok
Yes. his teammates are the measure.
It's a bit more complex than that. You have to take into account where you and your teammate are in their career and how established in the team they are. If you are beating your teammate but they are getting improved parts later and getting shafted on team orders, it doesn't say anything.
This is why I'd say Sainz is a much better driver than he's given credit for.
@@ndh06 Yes, it is complex. I tend to write with an economy of words; the whole idea is a book-length project.
I just reread my original comment, it was supposed tot say "Yes. Teammates are the measure.
@stephendavis59 No winning, I guess. Be economical with words others won't understand. Be liberal and others won't read it.
Anyhow, you are right that the teammate battle is the best measure of a driver, but the finger is on the scale on most cases.
Okay listen I mean absolutely no offense here but the amount of misinformetion / (times you conveniently chose to leave out details when it suits your argument) you make some of your points on is a really big miss in this video. Call me out for bias or whatever but if you wish then I would gladly just have a pure discussion with you where I will mention all the points I just accused you of and will offer some counter facts for my side of the discussion! I am not hiding back in a short comment now but I would like to establish a common understanding and desire for a talk before making the effort of writing a hugely long comment which might not be read. So if you're interested @Nedzo's F1 Grid Box then I would be more than happy to talk about it either in a voicechat or just per text, whichever you'd prefer!
In the end obviously 7th in a ranking of the best drivers ever in F1 is not bad at all but I do think he deserves to be a bit higher! At least in a different area than form 10-5. In my opinion he does deserve to be amongst the top 4! However in in that area I get that it fluctuates.
I don’t think I left anything out to suit a point or agenda. Please enlighten me where I missed such information
@@nedzosf1gridbox Despite me actually agreeing with you in the general statement of Lewis not being the goat I do have to criticise you a bit here. And please do not blame it on my favouritism here...
I'm rather pissed off because throughout the video I get the feeling (maybe this is a misunderstanding from my side and then I apologise for my little outburst!) that you like to dig on people being uninformed and portray yourself as more knowledgeable and 'smarter' in a sense.
You mention at 7:15 I believe, that others who are in the discussion of being 'The GOAT' such as Fangio, Clark, Prost, Senna and Schumacher never got beaten by their teammates. This is plain wrong for some of them and others were close to being beaten!
I know you mention Prost and Senna beating each other in the end so fair enough...
However Prost also got close to being beaten in both 1982 by René Arnoux despite Arnoux have 2 more DNFs (in races where both finished it was 2-1 for Prost with 6 points difference by the end of the xear) and also 1990 it admittedly wasn't close with Mansell but that might also be because Mansell had 9 DNFs compared to Prost's 4. (In races where both finished it was 4-3 for Prost in 1990)
Again there might be more context to these due to Mansell maybe crashing more than Prost and therefore explaining the DNF difference and that would obviously counter my argument so if you have more information about that please do tell me!
As for Senna you are correct apart from the year 1989 with Prost obviously however it is worth mentioning that other than Prost, Berger and De Angelis, Senna never had any noteworthy teammates that were close to a level of Button or Rosberg. For Berger and De Angelis I would argue that neither of them are close to Button, Rosberg or Alonso in terms of skill! (De Angelis maybe could have been but we shall never know due to his unfortunate death in 1986 as those two were only teammates for that one season!) Obviously there was Häkkinen in the last 3 races of the season where in the 1 race both finished Senna did beat Häkkinen however obviously that was obviously Häkkinen's very, very early stage of F1 career and racing!
As for the two drivers from the 50s and 60s...
With just a brief research on wikipedia I found that for example Fangio COULD have been beaten in 1956 by Peter Collins. Collins though chose to give up his car to Fangio in the last race despite being on course to possibly winning it!!! It was also the 2nd time that year Fangio was allowed to take over a teammates car and Collins had more DNFs that year. (Again maybe worth mentioning when criticising Lewis for being beaten by a teammate)
As for Clark (who I personally actually consider to be the most likely GOAT although we will obvs as another comment says never be able to compare the different eras of F1 drivers with each other properly) he actually also DID get beaten in 1961 by TWO of his teammates being Innes Ireland and Stirling Moss who BOTH had more DNFs than him! Admittedly again there might also be some missing context this year (as well as 1960 which I did not include where Clark actually too got beaten but I couldn't see specific race results for every driver so I decided to exclude it from this argument)
Schumacher is sort of another Senna case. Admittedly he never got beaten (Apart from Nico Rosberg in 2010 where Nico actually dunked on him, 2011 where admittedly Schumacher did have 5 DNFs to Rosberg's 2 yet the races H2H excluding DNFs was still 7 - 6 in Rosberg's favour. You do mention in the end that you did make a video on Schumacher in his Mercedes era however I still find it a bit controversial to counter argument this in a different video, but don't reall take the fact of Nelson Piquet's age and crash after which his performances dropped into account which I will mention again later on . I acknowledge 2012 but chose to not take that season into my argument because it's obvious that Schumacher would have most likely beaten Rosberg that year if he hadn't had 5 DNFs more)
Schumacher did as you say beat Piquet in the 5 closing races in 1991 however in the 3 races where both finished it was also just 2 - 1 in Schumacher's favour against a post crash, aging Piquet. Other than Piquet Schumacher never had any other teammates that are comparable to Button, Alonso and Rosberg
If you'll try to argue that Massa, Barrichello and Martin Brundell are similar caliber to either 3 of Lewis' I believe we need to dive even further into the driver skill of Button and Rosberg.
If you came this far and actually read my comment then genuinely thank you because I understand that it probably was not easy after both the length and the I admit a little snappy comment!
@ohdearabier8280 I said a few paragraphs at a time lol
@@nedzosf1gridbox Yeah I know sorry, just don't know what you understand under "a few paragraphs" and also I had this texted out already and felt like it belonged together.
@ohdearabier8280 I’m sorry but I genuinely can’t read it all. Break it into smaller chunks and I’ll give it a go
UHH...He was ROBBED????
Who was?
I’m a Lewis fan. I don’t care about the goat debate since everyone with a brain already understand a Goat simply can’t exist when you objectively think about it.
However, my comment is in reply to some of your points.
First things first, you seem to compare Lewis to Michael a lot saying he never got beat by his teammates, however why would you think Michael’s teammates are on the same level as Lewis’ teammates? You even said Rosberg is comparable to the likes of Irvine, which can only be an opinion with no objective way of looking at it. Bar an endgame Piquet, Michael really didn’t have any competitive teammate and I’m talking about the years he drove and not comparing them to today’s drivers. There is no driver that event stood out in a team that came to be Michael Schumacher’s teammate. Saying he never got beaten by his teammate is also factually wrong as Nico Rosberg exists. You can say he’s old, he was out of F1 and there different regulations, but Fernando Alonso is loving proof of none of that bs mattering.
Michael got done by Rosberg 3 years in a row, so by your logic that means he cannot be a goat (Just like Lewis. Keep in mind, I’m not disagree with you, but rather pointing your flaws on the criteria you’ve set).
Moving on to Lewis v Button. Realistically Lewis was always faster than Button even 2011. He was the only one to get pole after all. His problem was him colliding with Massa every other race. That I agree. It’s the lowest point in his career and many races where he’d just crash into other made him look like a Stroll tier driver (only in awareness though)
In both 2010 and 2012 Lewis was clearly faster than Jenson during quali and race trim combined, also adding into account him being more unfortunate than Jenson. You’re watching the average data of race/quali pace shown on screen yet you do not account the circumstances behind those data, especially considering the many technical problems he faced.
The same thing can be said for Rosberg as well. In all 3 seasons combined Lewis was way more unfortunate than Rosberg, hence the 2014 season was so close. Funnily enough in 2014, Jenson stated in an interview that he has not seen someone as unlucky as Lewis, which says a lot.
Another TH-camr ‘recreated’ all 14/15/16 so no technical issue happened to Lewis and Nico and the results are as expected really, with Lewis comfortably winning just like in 2015 in both their other seasons.
When it comes to Russell, I won’t mention the experiments at all, but won’t you mention the fact that Lewis was unluckier than George that season? Again, you can’t be looking at data to just determine how things really unfolded. Ofc in the history books the one with the less points will be remembered as the loser and no one will care about the broader picture, but again by that logic, Michael will be remembered as a loser as well, hence out of the goat race? Seems fair.
I do agree with many things though:
Lewis’ 2011 season was mid and got demolished by Button.
Lewis race craft and mostly quali pace have fallen significantly. One probably due to the fact of being comfortable at the front and the other due to age.
Now as to who should by the goat (by your criteria): it’s easy- Jim Clarke. It’s only him and there’s no 2nd 3rd 4th etc.
Now as to why the F1 (and mostly every other sport) can’t realistically have a goat:
1- the drivers. We all know that today’s level of drivers is much higher than the ones of the past. I’m not talking about your Senna’s Schumi’s etc but your average drivers. Can I prove that claim? I can’t, bc there’s no realistic way for that to be proven. It’s more like a gentleman’s agreement. They’re an improvement when it comes to their athletic abilities and their intelligence as well.
2- The machinery. You can’t compare a car going 60 km/h through a turn to one that’s 180 km/h. You can’t compare the g-force.
Different circumstances mean unequal point of measurement, which makes the whole goat debate highly subjective.
You can say Micheal beat all hi teammates, but you can’t actually prove that Michael would be able to be Sergeant.
Just like you can’t prove Lewis would be able to beat De Angelis.
What you’re doing is comparing eras and seeing which one had the most flawless career in said era. That’s basically just who had the best career.
The point of racing is to see which driver (and car) is the fastest and not which driver had the most consistently successful career. We all know that a race and a wdc can be won by not the fastest driver or car, which makes the goat debate even more impossible to come to an objective verdict.
Sorry if I said a lot mumbo jumbo. Haven’t slept all night so I might’ve said some stupid things, but too lazy to double check.
Again, I don’t really disagree with you that Lewis isn’t the goat in the criteria you’ve set. However I wanted to point out that many of the comparisons you’ve have a lot of flaws to them.
If you want my honest opinion, (which is only an opinion since it can’t be made a fact)
This generation of drivers we have in F1 today, are the best drivers to have ever stepped foot in F1. Can I prove my claim? I can’t. It’s just an opinion, just like this video can’t be a fact, just an opinion.
Ps. Goat debates are really just stupid tbh. It’d be easier for ppl to just say
“I think this driver is the goat bc”
Instead of that ppl say - “He’s the goat”
That’s a big difference.
Mate respectfully I’m not reading all that. You can’t seriously trying to tear down Schumacher’s name because of a stint 6-8 years after his last title. You use Alonso as an example despite the fact Alonso came back to the same rough car regulations and tyres when Schumi didn’t. All of my data ignores weekends where there are caveats, anything from a grid penalty to an accident, providing it wasn’t their own fault. Also I don’t think Clark is number 1 without providing a top 5 I think Clark is ahead of Fangio, Nuvolari, Prost and Schumacher for the top 5
@@nedzosf1gridboxWell we live in a democracy. You can choose not to.
However just like you point things out, I will point things out as well.
I’m not trying to tear Schumacher’s name at all. If I wanted to do that I’d have cleared him off your list by just mentioning Australia 1994 and Jerez 1997 and the many more instances where he acts in an unsportsmanlike manner for his benefit.
His stint 6 years after his sabbatical, his still his stint. There’s no double ganger in his place.
When it comes to different cars. Both him and Alonso came into new regs just like everyone else. I don’t see how that comparison doesn’t make sense. You can say he was way for longer, but I doubt Alonso would be as slow as Micheal had taken off the same amount of years off. But that can’t be proven either.
Also not to forget the whole teammate comparisons between eras argument which is a very opinionated one and where’s absolutely no proof as to how good Michael’s teammates would be in comparison to Lewis’ ones. However there’s fact that Lewis teammates have stood out more than Michael’s teammates.
Also I just said Jim is the undisputed goat by your criteria, and there’s no one after him. I wasn’t saying that you said that. I was saying that he’s the goat and that there’s no 2nd 3rd etc bc that’s pointless. One is the goat and all of the others aren’t. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, rather giving you a different perspective.
You not taking into account races and quali where drivers had technical problems is even worse then, since such feats performed by drivers in a race or quali are lost bc you took them off. Feats which paint a very different picture.
If one driver was faster than the other but had technical problems, that should still be acknowledged since you’re talking about a very delicate topic, hence everything needs to be taken into account.
I already went and typed my comment knowing we won’t come into an agreement, and so be it.
I always try to take the most realistic approach even when it’s against my favorite drivers (which isn’t only Lewis btw but also Fernando). That is the reason why I can’t agree with many of the comparisons you’ve made, since they simply can’t be proven in realistic way. Being unable to do anything about that, I tried to show you points that you made that are very subjective and rely on a probability.
When it comes to everything else. I agree with you. Using your criteria, Lewis isn’t the goat and you’re right about that. I have no problems with it whatsoever. However the points you made- that I touched upon don’t have much credibility behind them.
@illyricus all I’ll say is that on a statistical basis there’s no way to account for races where someone retires while in front. It’s unfortunate but it’s how it is. There’s no way you can empirically measure it
@@nedzosf1gridbox on the bright side, you did a better job at the Goat criteria than most of the renowned TH-camrs. Kudos to you!
@illyricus. Thanks mate
the point you made about lewis winning 7/11 potential championships should be 7/9 as in 2010 and 2012. he had the fastest car but mclaren screwed both drivers
2012 wasn’t one of the seasons and in 2010 he definitely could’ve won. The 11 were 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2014-21
@@nedzosf1gridbox the 2012 mclaren was extremey fast especially at the end of the end of the season
I know it was but even a cynic like me wouldn’t expect him to win the title when it broke down every 5 seconds
Didn't Nico Rosberg beat Micheal Shumacher?
He beat a 41-43 year old schumi who was coming off the back of a three year break, and the biggest change in tyre/car philosophy combined since his debut in 1991. Schumi’s Mercedes stint was actually underrated, I did a separate video on that
@@nedzosf1gridbox Great points. Change in Tyre philosophy is a massive factor. Look at what it did to Jacques. He hated the change before it actually took place. He had a good understanding of mechanical grip.
Some people bash him pretty hard, but he won the Indy 500 from two laps down, took the championship, then came to F1 taking pole on his first race. Gave Damon a run for a bit, then won the WDC the next year. Pretty impressive for a rookie, no matter what the haters say.
He slid down the rankings once grooved tyres became a factor. Poor management had something to do with it as well. Plus he made a boatload of cash.
I think it is time you make a video of Alonso vs Hamilton in F1. Since you ranked Hamilton 7th and Alonso 8th.
I don’t see that getting many views, it’s just a battle between two drivers doesn’t fit my channel
He is Statistically intems of wins and titles and pols. So yehhh
Alonso the goat
Haha you had me there for a second
7th is more than fair.
Mate, sorry but your video is a load of 💩 think you just made it up for clickbait. Team mate comparisons don’t even make sense. Was Ruben Barrichello, ever aloud to race Schumacher 🤔
He was at the start. Was Piquet “aloud” to race Schumacher? Yes. What about Brundle? Or Patrese? Or Lehto, Verstappen or Herbert? Or Irvine? Or Massa? There’s a reason for that. Lewis doesnt have the same record against teammates. Put it this way. Alain Prost had Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna as teammates for a quarter of his career. Lewis only went up against similar calibre against Alonso for one season.
If you say so. Everyone has there own views and opinions, but to say that he’s not the goat is questionable and your video is to. And I do remember seeing Nico Rosberg, absolutely smash Michael Schumacher as team mate.
@mrg2797 Nico Rosberg smashed a 41 year old coming back after 3 years away with completely new cars and tyres. Schumi was actually criminally underrated in my books in his Merc stint. I did a video on it, and I found out that if it wasn’t for bad luck and reliability in 2012, he would’ve led the championship after Monaco. Interesting stuff but also I just can’t put Lewis in the same bracket as Clark, Fangio and Prost and co because he’s lost at one point or another to half his teammates when the others get nowhere near his numbers
@@mrg2797 I have to agree with the Nico comment. He was by far the toughest team mate Pewis had. Took number 8 off of him. His pace in his early equipment was pretty damn good too.
Statistically yes, but if considering only driving skill Lewis is not a GOAT by not only for reasons you've mentioned. While he's incredibly quick when car suits him but when not he's pace inconsistent and quite sloppy when battling others (tactical understeer). He had an amazing 2007, 2015 and 2018 seasons, but others either by pure luck (2008 where he made a lot of mistakes and tbh was quite lucky that Massa and Ferrari fumbled and Sauber shot themselves into foot with no upgrates, 2014 by little bit of reliability issues from Britney still almost equal) or dominant car (2017 with Ferrari and Seb fumbling).
Personally I'll rank him on 8 place after 6 GOATS that was mentioned and behind Alonso on 7th due when they were fighting on almost equal cars except 2007 and 2nd part of 2023 when AM fuked up when it came to upgrates Alonso almost constantly had an edge on him.
EDIT: there's great site that F1 metrics where they made a great chart of best drivers by pure performance.
Fair play mate
Who's your number one then?
@@joaopedrogoncalves3861 In order
1. Clark: super smooth and versatile, only downed by Lotus reliability.
2. Fangio: winning 5 titles and almost win 50% races in death traps says much.
3. M.Schumacher: while dirty but extremely consistent while being quick and the ability to build a team around is something else.
4. Prost: not flashy and overly political, but super smart on track and strategic.
5. Senna: mega quick and out of the world on rain, but accident prone when pushing and overly aggressive when someone dares to challenge him.
6. Lauda: technical genius and has giant balls to go back to the race after life threatening crash, win WCC year later and even win 1984 title against Prost.
7. Alonso: tendency to burn bridges but extremely smart on track and phenomenal racecraft. Supremely adaptable and mega consistent when driving.
8. Hamilton: supremely quick, great wet driver and consistent when car is tuned to his liking but current stats overrate him as he can be sloppy on racecraft and most of current winnings are mostly to sheer Merc dominance on 2nd half of 2010s
9. M.Verstappen: I would rank him higher in later years due to recency. Otherwise super consistent, aggressive and capable of insane runs when needed both dry or wet.
10. J.Stewart: often forgotten but a supreme driver, only left racing too early to show real potential.
Honorable mentions: N.Piquet, Hakkinen, Vettel, Mansell, Raikkonen. I can add Fittipaldi, Moss and Ascari but I don't know then enough to properly judge.
this is absolute garbage 😂😂😂 this is ridiculous lmao
If that’s your opinion then that’s fair enough
SLH is the goat we don't care what you think
Who’s we? Because 86% of people who’ve interacted with it have liked it instead of disliking it
@@nedzosf1gridbox We is "Team L-Hache"
Yea
You are a scum of the world clearly a hater of SLh@@nedzosf1gridbox