I did watch the whole video, Not Saying you don't know how to notch and all that. My point is I don't think this is a bad change, it will encourage people to actually learn how to be more technical and strategic instead of just hugging the ground all game. Plus you made a comment about not having as easy of an option with multipathing if there are 16 people firing missiles at you. My counterargument to that is, if you find yourself in a situation where 16 other people are firing missiles at you, you've probably made a mistake to begin with.
People keep saying this'll add more skill, but it's just going to be the current fox 2 meta higher up. Once the update hits, people will whine and moan. The only way to save top tier would be to drastically cut down the player count per match. That way there aren't missiles coming at you from 360 degrees above and below and the situation is actually manageable. BVR is fine and all, but right now top tier plays like a first person shooter.
The missile knows where it is at all times, it knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't or where it isn't from where it is. (Wichever is greater) it observes a deviation or a difference. The internal guidance unit....
they have adressed the team sizes. an option to toggle (like night battles) to play smaller servers for 2-12 players.. kindve weird to see people complain about relatively advanced missiles doing what they are meant to. they are meant to be hard to evade. and if you are close to the ground you have no where to go.. hence altitude is life.
@@davef2108 yes sorry bud but that’s not them addressing the problem. It’s more like them kissing a bleeding wound. The toggle they are introducing is the same type of toggle as night battles for tanks. How often do you get night battles? Because I can say for myself it’s 1 battle ever 2-3weeks if even that. This isn’t going to change anything since the player has to know about it and actually go in and toggle it on since it’s set to off by default. How many people do you think will go and do that?
The way I look at it, Gajin can't make top tier any worst than it already is. In fact, I welcome the change, it will prevent low altitude suicide rushes into the middle of the map; most matches don't even last five minutes. My friends and I play Custom Battles at alt, it's so much more fun and dynamic.
I went went into a Golan Heights custom mission with the real time information tool, and found that 95% of the trees on that map are 35m-40m tall. That leaves room for about 10m wiggle room for flying at treetop level where you can still be safe, and your tac view of the f16 flying low didn't quite make it there in time. I do find the change positive as it will make people think more strategically about how they go into fights, and make them use the terrain differently other than just relying on flying 50m ABOVE the trees. They'll have to think about how to duck behind hills and mountains effectively if the terrain is too uneven to fly AT treetop level. However, with the amount of players per game being too many, and with the small maps, it can really be overwhelming with the missile spam and make it near impossible for a player to utilize terrain effectively with the reduced multipathing effect, since there might be too many enemies firing at you from all different directions. Another problem is spotting. I don't think that if an enemy close to you spots you, that his teammate 20km+ away should be able to see your nametag. This should be limited to about a 10km bubble around you, to prevent an entire swarm of enemies seeing you fighting one person and start lobbing missiles off at you from across the galaxy. This might also encourage more people to use chat for callouts. Overall, I think Gaijin is trying to make the game "enjoyable" for people that want realism and skill to be involved, while also catering to players that don't have any skill, and bought their way to top tier. You can't have gameplay mechanics that require skill (defeating missiles without multipathing effect, etc), while also having things that require no skill (16v16 missile spam, etc). This mix of game mechanics give birth to players called "sweats" or "tryhards". The no skill path will almost always win and will always be the easiest path used to abuse skilled players, and it isn't limited to noobs. This is why GTA online for example, for those that quit playing following the introduction of the oppressor, explosive ammo, etc, is full of a bunch of brain rot. Sweaty players will learn to abuse things meant for noobs, to win against players that want a somewhat realistic and authentic experience. TLDR: I think reduced multipathing is a good thing and allows for a wider skill gap, but those skills cannot be used properly until the player count is ACTUALLY reduced, and/or spread out a lot more over a bigger map with more spawns, like sim battles. And maybe a spotting rework.
Can you imagine a player getting to top tier, stock grinding a Jet with only flares and 2 IR missiles in a FOX-3 meta with no multipathing for defense? I think this feels like a "buy golden eagles to spade you vehicle" change more than anything 👀. BVR fights are cool in DCS, in a 2v2, 1v1, people are not taking into consideration the 16v16. With IR missiles and SARH it's already a mess, now you'll always have a missile coming for you with so much noise in the RWR that it won't even make sense. Hopefully they'll do more tests before implementing this, it makes no sense adding a realistic feature if the game mode itself feels more like a Halo Big Team Battle deathmatch. Great video!
Gaijin literally changed the matchmaker from 16v16 to a min of 6v6 to a max of 12v12; why are you guys complaining so much about a Dev server change when you conviniently ignore the other huge dev server change? Stop pretending and just assume all you guys want is to hug trees and launch fox2s at people, the number of players is not the problem for you guys, the need to adapt to a higher skill gameplay is.
@@ryanfreeman5083 and thats why gaijin needs to push through with the multipathing change, and basically MAKE the community demand lower match sizes. its the only way gaijin listens
Well, it was really frustrating that anyone could just hug the ground and be safe from radar missiles. Now it will actually take skill and proper positioning or actual BVR combat tactics. And people will have to learn and adapt. People always scream that x change will completely destroy the game. People said the same about Heatseekers, then the good radar missiles and before now it was the IRCCM Missiles. The game will not die and people will adapt and find tactics. Chaff actually is viable now and we can learn how to use it. A few people will leave yes, because they refuse to adapt.
@@iceicebabyilwhat clowns? About how easy it is to defeat aim9m's and magic 2s but not r73s? About russia having the best set of missiles? about F-5s suffering the same issues as the zeroes?
Lee you know you’re my best friend but I’m gonna have to disagree with you here buddy. I’m tired of the deck hugging meta in top tier games and this will hopefully encourage people to climb again and we can actually get some high alt bvr engagements instead of the deck hugging into furball loop we have now. 16v16 is still another issue that needs to be changed though.
@@ivancsontos7011 i agree apart from respawns. i think that it's a good idea for the most part but it should be another gamemode RB EC, The maps are part of the issue but i think that if gajjin implement what you said about the maps then the players will storm toward the middle anyway if the maps are big unless they're bombing. So i think that a huge part of the problem is the playercount of each match. if we have 8v8 or 10v10 it would be MUCH more enjoyable imo. It would make it possible to do bvr without having to pay attention to that many people and getting randomly killed all of the time becasue of the spotting system etc.
Step one, turn cold. Step two, hammer the throttle. Step three, Turn hot once you're sure the missile has missed. Hiding under 100m is NOT the only way to defeat radar missiles, nor should it be the most effective.
i hope gaijin focuses on making more terrain varied maps before they push out this update, even now if you try to "go cold" against most missiles they catch up with you, especially against fox3s since you now wont know immediately when they are launched if its bvr until a. the radar hardlocks or b. the missile's radar locks you
Too many people are seeing this as "good no more low altitude furballs!" like suddenly the problem is going to disappear instead of it just being exactly the same just with ARH missiles instead of IR. I get that this is more realistic but realism doesn't necessarily translate to good gameplay. Matches are still going to be 12v12 and 16v16 most of the time meaning you have anywhere from 36 to well over 50 potential missiles to worry about (which is the root of the issue), the only difference is now it's harder to defend against most of them.
My 60 countermeasures (30 flares and 30 chaff) will love notching the entire enemy teams arsenal of FOX-3s. Gameplay will be 1. notch 4 missiles, 2. return to base to restock countermeasures, 3. repeat.
@@ludvigarstrand9666 quite literally a few seconds. by the time you turn onto the 3-9 line the missile probably isn’t going to hit you if it’s burner is already out. you’ll see when it goes live just how easy it’ll be. these fox 3s will only be inescapable inside like 8 miles, cuz at that point you can’t run.
My feeling is a lot of people are about to get exactly what they wished for and subsequently realize how boring BVR is in comparison to the more knife-fight-esque gameplay we have currently. I didn't get top tier in War Thunder to play DCS with less steps. The quest for more realism might not always lead to more enjoyable gameplay.
the reduced height is an amazing change, imagine actually having to defend or notch instead of just spamming flares in a merge 24/7 hugging the floor. if this change stays then we might actually see missiles having the ability to force somebody go cold instead of just everybody rushing into a merge into missiles that are destined to miss due to this silly balancing mechanic.
@@blackjack8697 Flying low requires 0 skill and is insanely boring. If they remove multi pathing it would make it that top tier requires actual skill. Which would be great. The noobs like you can just play on the lower BR and bomb bases together.
@@blackjack8697 then go play arcade? battles should take time especially with bvr as you want to combat and fire at them in the NEZ while staying out of their NEZ.
@@blackjack8697go play ace combat or air arcade then bro ts makes matches actually fun repeatedly flying low and spamming ir missiles getting a few kills then doing it all over is literally insanity branch out more learn how to actually do something other than go full after burner for an entire match below 50 ft
Thank god I'm seeing people back up this change in the comments, I for one cant wait to actually have go cold, 9 3 line, and actually be careful of the MAR for ARH missiles. I get this game was arcady in the past but come on, you are talking about the game that is slowly adding more and more parts to vehicles that can be disabled/ destroyed, in fact they market their game as being "realistic" in that sense.
It's not about the point of beeing realistic but rather the fact that planes like the Gripen are basically unbeatable, even if the other player is actually better
Honestly I disagree just because hugging the ground is not fun gameplay at all. They should pair this change with reducing the amount of players in a match though.
Then make hugging the dirt not the only viable way to dodge missiles. 12v12, 16v16 it is near impossible to dodge Radar Missiles when they come from 10 directions and can track you from behind. Even if you do defend you just get r73d or aim9md to oblivion by planes with 10 missiles who can just spam 2-3 and can damn near guarantee a kill
@@ferrous3262 Acually yes if u wanna have a killer lunch with radar missile unlike the brain dead fox2 meta also it will force you to shoot, defend, recommet and reengage
I understand what you're saying, but I still want the reduced height. The entire top tier gameplay is stale. Everyone flys in low and it just ends up being a fur ball because everyone gets too close because they aren't worried about getting hit. This is will 100% stop some fur balls. It will either outright kill people trying to push in or it will force people to play defensive. Either way I'm good with having less fur balls. Top tier has no skill to it, it's easy to fly, fast moving/climbing planes, smart weapon systems, and no thinking ahead. It might as well be an arcade mode. There is way more skill involved in mid BR aircraft. Top tier needs some skill added.
Hey at least you're reasonable about it, I appreciate it. Personally I disagree but we'll probably have to see how it turns out 🤣. I dread trying to play anything without ARH missiles at top tier next update.
Notching a missile takes even less skill, theres literal bots that can do it lol. The skill in this game is in entirely different places, like awareness and mechanical skill, which this change both eliminates.
Right? Skilled enough to stay at low altitude? In sim maybe but air RB? The plane flies itself for you lol, literally everyone in air RB can fly low, it's not a skill.
@@_YellovvJacket_ "Notching a missile takes even less skill" Hahaha!! Saying that notching takes less skill than flying low and turning off your brain is some wild statement. Is this why 3/4 of players can't/won't notch??
Multipath is a part that needs to be refined, not just an element to delete. The multipath requirement now is harsh considering that trees or buildings are bizarrely huge in this game. Without multipath, the winner becomes clear. Nothing can beat the speed and weapon range of f14 or f15.
"We’re do people see skill in nerfing multi-pathing? It is still 16 v 16 and will be who can fire first. Either you’re the one who fires first and holds lock, or you are the one who is defending. That’s the same gameplay we have with the Su-27 right now, but now everyone is gonna have it. This will just get people to continue flying low and try to get close fox 3 shots on their enemy because it’s easier to notch and use the ground at the same time to defeat the missiles. This is just how War Thunder goes though; people rant for a change, and when it comes to live, and it’s not what they expected, they complain."
Thank you, the real issue is 16 vs 16, people forget that ARB isn’t dcs, I don’t find gameplay where you are just jousting from multiple km away entertaining, I completely understand it for sim, but not for ARB
i feel like this will force people to be scared of getting close to the enemy, with this change it will be much harder to form a furball. I encourage all of you to watch AeroTurtles videos on it, he shows how it can make the game more interesting
@@CityLightsMusic unless… OH WAIT those tactics are completely obsolete with war thunder match sizes (and no not everyone likes smaller games, the majority of people i know prefers 16v16, its just that the people that want smaller match sizes are the ones screaming, so it seems like the majority wants that)
the way multipathing was implemented was already not realistic for the missiles we had. I wish gaijin would fix the real problems - team sizes and shitty maps - after which toned down multipathing would be great, but that would require actual work
Honestly in my opinion I don't know that this really ruins the gamemode more than it's already been ruined. Makes radar missiles less useless because right now you can just fly kinda low to completely negate them, and it's not even that skillful to do that, it's just silly. If anything, halving the multipathing height might make it actually skillful instead of being nearly effortless as it is right now. You mentioned player count, and I'll also bring up stock grind being worse because no radar missiles, but also these are already both major issues, and multipath was never the solution or fix to those in the first place. But yeah, there should be a test event with these changes for sure to make sure nothing is too crazy.
exactlyyy, so many other problems in the game are in such a state, its wild to me people have their sights set so hard on THIS multipath nerf. it'd genuinely add some (desperately needed) dynamics beyond skirting treetops to a merge so you can spam IRCCM fox 2s and die lol... especially considering that gaijin's set the framework to make each missile multipath to individual extents, meaning they can create a gradient of slowly ever-improving missiles against multipath as you climb closer to top tier- its a great way to acclimate players as they go past rank VII. like really, i feel like u can basically guarantee people wouldnt be making such a hullabaloo about this if the battles and gamemodes werent in such a sorry state. multipathing nerfs are not that earthshattering lol, especially if gaijin makes good on their word about smaller battles. people think its a step backwards, but its actually one of the few steps in the right direction ive seen gaijin take in a while, and if they keep pairing it with other steps in the right direction like smaller round sizes and gamemode revamps, the game's gonna be so much better off honestly. ppl need to learn other ways of spoofing missiles than just flying low somehow!!! if there werent 96 missiles in each battle, that'd become much more feasible. -whether gaijin will do that or not however...-
I think the skill massively depends on the terrain. Flat map like Sinai? Super easy. Pyrennes? Mad respect if you can reliably multipath. If they changed stuff like the player count BEFORE this change I would be more open to it.
@@GeneralLee2000 the player count is the underlying issue. Gaijin really needs to start listening to all the players and CCs telling them for years that this is too much...
People about to learn what the MAR is and to avoid it. Honestly this change is long overdue, people have been using the ground-hugging as a crutch for too long.
Yea, have fun dodging missiles in the 16v16 matchmaker where 16 people, from 16 different positions throw Fox-3s at you. I mean it can‘t be that hard to understand that this aint it right haha
War Thunder was neverment to be DCS, or Falcon BMS. Dispite RB being more "realistic", it is definitely not. Everything is exaggerated. If you want to avoid the MAR, go fly DCS. Or better yet, Falcon BMS.
@@ViperPilot16 no this introduces more skill on a way that is objectively fairer almost like these things have arisen out of the technological advances that have been made in middle/radar technology and being able to actually have a back and forth fight is really nice after the years of fox 1 who’s middle hits first head one
This change would be fine with smaller player counts and larger maps but 16 v 16 where everyone is in a furball launching radar missiles at each other from like ~3 km where it's impossible to react in time to employ proper evasive maneuvers it will be cancerous
Agree with this - reducing multipathing and reducing lobby size are both required. One without the other won't produce the effect the community seems to want.
@@leftnut7508 I think this strat's gonna work very poorly this update when a bunch of people teamkill by throwing fox 3s into furballs. You do actually have to get close to enemies eventually when your BVR options dry up. And in 16v16, any early merge with a plane is going to leave you wide open to 2, 3 or more of his teammates that are more than happy to use a 27ER at AIM-9 distances.
@@BlackjackTheLad honestly I'd consider ditching the fight altogether and rearm before entering a furball if the player count is too high. Nothing wrong with rearming and thinning the numbers till a dogfight is advantageous.
@@thehunk1 You still have the 50 meters, defensive manuevers, and then some stock ir missiles. Will be harder but with mig-21 tactics of coming in from angles they wont expect it will be doable.
I'm good with it. Makes us learn to do something besides trim the grass in our planes. Use real tactics and maneuvers, more importantly our brains. This is going to weed out the dummies real fast, becasue they're just not gonna live long enough to get to the dogfight.
I think this is a great change in my opinion, flying low is such an annoying strat. This change will really show the difference between an experienced player and someone who bombed their way to top tier with next to no air to air skill
@@jpc6485 already do it 35 v 35 on DCS PvP, current experience worked really good, I'll just need to adapt a few things for warthunder format, but the ideas will work, fox 3s work all the same in principal
Ngl I think this is a bad take. Every issue you brought up can be resolved by lowering the MP affect even more or by changing other issues with the game currently (16v16, spotting, etc). This will be a good change and it is definitely moving in the right direction for gameplay.
What about artificially buffing notching and chffing so that the skilled players can consistently dodge these. kinda like irccm missiles.@@GeneralLee2000
@@GeneralLee2000the 16v16 is already starting to be changed, the matchmaker has an option for smaller games. Either way, reducing the multi path is not a bad thing. I’d rather be able to fight off ground hugging IRCCM spammers than have them be 100% immune to my missiles. Saying “multi path good” and “flying low is a skill” is an incredibly bad take.
@@kennedy.nola_ Nah mate, some people will still be complaining about multipathing instead of pledging to reduce EVEN further the number of players in a match (which Gaijin has already reduced to a min of 6v6 to a max of 12v12). Basically, as much as they say the opposite, their problem is not with the number of players, but with multipath itself, people just want the fast paced brainrot gameplay the game has at top tier right now. Don't fall for their bullshit
It is not going to ruin top tier, content creators are so fucking dramatic. It’s going to be a good thing for the game. Everyone has been bitching forever that the ground hug meta is so boring. Well now it’s harder. Top tier will be fine.
Hugging the ground is absolutely zero skill the fact your pushing for matches to stay like this is crazy you keep saying this n that is so difficult bro just adapt wtf 😭 use the mountains as cover go cold DEFEND like Jesus Christ
@@ferrous3262this isn't about shooting missiles tho. This is about defending against these missiles which takes skill and the one shooting the missiles also have to defend thus increasing the overall skill ceiling of the game.
@@slanderking69 even shooting these missiles has some level of skill. A higher and faster missile will not only be better but also have less terrain problems, so this update will greatly help any player who is profecient at bvr and force other players to adapt. High flyers will become the new high priority targets and the winning team will mostly be the team who can use altitude to thier advantage while going offensive and defensive.
@@angelnunez6476 I feel like games will be decided by who can sneak under the enemy, and the most effective players will still be the ones who have fast enough reflexes to really hug the deck.
All these comments thinking this will lead to sophisticated BVR gameplay are out of their mind, it will mean even shorter matches because you CANNOT evade or notch the amount of missiles in the air
@@desertrecce5676 and when exactly do you know when you will be able to turn back? you get a MSL warning everytime anything is shot in your general direction, which means that ur RWR will be going off for the entire match as the enemy team has 100+ fox 3s
@@desertrecce5676 you can also just... not shoot the missile outside the nez... sure you can shoot first but then it just becomes a game of "I shot him now I turn back and return 20 seconds later." "Oh he shot me now then I turn back and return 20 seconds later and Ill shoot him with a missile" and the entire game will literally become a turn based shoot missile fly away
@@kilian3006 you only get missiles warnings for a fox 3 that’s active on you, so closer than 10 miles. also if you use your rwr to tell you a missile is coming your gonna die. you need to operate under the assumption there’s damn near always a missile in the air for you since it’ll be too late if you wait for rwr warnings
This. If people don't like fox-3/bvr they can simply go to a lower br where they can't see them. People who want bvr rn have no other option. There's like a thousand aircrafts in the game, idk why it is such a big deal that the gameplay/meta evolves at top tier. Props don't play the same as early jets. Those also don't play the same as mid cold war/3rd gen jets. 4gen should have another type of gameplay.
Lee, I am going to respectfully disagree with this argument for the simple fact that this is what modern air combat should look like. Dogfights are not won by charging head first into the enemy, its a chess match of defensive maneuvers, long range missiles being fired in their proper parameters and understanding your enemies' tactics that will help you win. The current stale gameplay of hugging the ground making missile bus planes like the f15 and su 27 free food for the gripen which has much higher flight performance and will dog on them in the merge(which is basically guaranteed on the live server with current multipathing). You say flying low and not hitting terrain is a skill, I say its a handicap which doesn't teach players proper tactics. Flying lower than 100 meters is easy as hell I can do that in SIM flying with a controller in manual control. I think this change is great for gameplay, I just hope gaijin follows through with the smaller matches to really make it's significance appreciated by the community.
I would be fine with a change to multipath height with a preemptive change to maps and player count, but just shoving it in without any changes just ruins gameplay.
Except for 2 problems. 1. Gaijin hasn't made plans to reduce team sizes (the option to gamble if you can get 12v12 is a fucking JOKE as 1. it's not guaranteed, 2. 12v12 is still too large) and 2. Like flying high, getting a tws "lock" and clicking the fire missile button is the hardest thing in the world lmao. Also imagine playing your jets without competitive radar missiles (F-15A, Netz, etc.) Good luck in bvr with your sparrows or even without radar missiles at all. You are FORCED to fly low, especially in the Netz as you only have 60 countermeasures and facing IRCCM every game meaning you NEED a lot of flares. To reiterate, I'm totally fine with the multipath going from 100m to 50m IF ONLY team sizes were actually reduced to 8v8 or even 6v6. Also, apparently the multipath changing from 100 to 50m is for ALL radar missiles, including fox-1's which according to other people is unrealistic anyway, as the non-inverse monopulse sparrows such as the AIM-7E should have WORSE low altitude performance.
Firstly I applaud you GL for promoting constructive discussion around the snail tuning this mechanic and it's my personal opinion that multipathing has needed to change for a while, it shouldn't be as simple as fly low and you're safe from radar missiles, now people are going to need to employ actual anti missile manoeuvres and countermeasures. Defeating missiles should take skill, experience and game sense. Now don't get me wrong I don't want this to become DCS but radar missiles becoming useless at low altitude is ridiculous. I believe that gaijin should also give ARH and SARH different multipathing altitudes given that typically ARH missiles are less prone to multipathing due to the nature in which they work and also due to more advanced filters on board to combat multipathing. Each to their own but I'd just like to see all IR and radar missiles overhauled with how they respond to countermeasures. It's quite frustrating having missiles chase flares that are at the opposite of their seeker's gimbal angle instead of the afterburning jet the seeker is looking at and single flare pops spoofing missiles 99% of the time is frustrating too when you've got good launch parameters and aspects. When it comes to air to air in the higher tiers I feel like it's too arcadey at times and would benefit from some reworking and rebalancing and this to me is a step in the right direction.
I'm gonna throw my opinion on this: 1. This can lead to decreasing number of players in matches, so there will be no missile spamming 2. This WILL force players to learn how to dodge this missiles (this will increase lenght of games for example) Also "hugging the ground" is not skill, its basically a mechanic that gives you invencibility against SARH/ARH, so potentially this will give more options on how to play (flying high gives missile extra range, but what is the purpose if it will always miss and you'll get shot down (especially with a shit ton of markers), right?) 3. This will finally shift meta from IR missiles and they will become AN OPTION, but not a main weapon. P.S. About range that people wouldn't have time to turn away and defend. This thing is in the game for A LOOOONG time, bc SARH has the same "lethal" range bracket, and most of SARH missiles are fired while you're above 100m and in this "lethal" range
The problem is not 'being able' to do it but rather, doing it in the first place. Top tier can carry atleast 6 ARH/SARH missiles, in a 16v16 that means that there's gonna be A LOT of missile spam. You're gonna have to fly defensively for 90% of the not to get shot down, disregarding the instances where you literally can't evade two or more missiles coming at you from different directions.
i think something that will actually happen is people that will only bring, or bring as many heatseekers as possible and literally just fly away from battle when it starts, only engaging once some time has passed because of the insane missiles flying all over the place, then flank the side or similar and just sideshot everyone with heatseekers
Mad props for covering this and I agree especially on the fact that this isn't full on milsim. I call it a semi-realistic game. It mixes arcade elements with real world mechanics. People love to pick and choose what is and isn't real on here and generally people only want the "real" when it favors them. Let's see aircraft stop consistently pulling 9+ G's and see how much people love their dogfighting in an era which realistically doesn't ever see it happen 99% of the time. Doing something about this for the Sim experience: I completely get that, and I think that is totally ok, it is called sim for a reason. Realistic mixes the arcade and sim elements of the game and simply makes it more accessible and easier to understand (UI spotting, 3rd person, etc.) Even by that argument... the game doesn't tell you multipathing is even a thing let alone how it is the most straightforward way to counter radar missiles. I didn't learn about it until I found out about it via TH-cam :) and a lot of people will continue not to know cuz they simply don't play it like that to care enough to do the research. Multipathing is that standard hard counter to a missile that would otherwise in most practical situations be impossible to defeat. Just like a flare is for IR missiles, but with the advent of IRCCM missiles... you see how it can now be a lot more difficult, to straight up impossible to avoid such a missile despite using the hard counter to it in the most practical sense of how games play out. It's simply straight up impossible to do on many an occasion despite knowing what you should do to properly flare/counter them. Addressing 16v16 with the current set up for ARB could be one of the simplest solutions. Without typing a full novel on everything I could say about this subject as this is already long as is: You show some really good examples in this vid about the issues that could arise because of it being nerfed. I get the feeling that a lot of the people complaining about it... would be very upset at how the new game will play out without it. It could very much be who shoots first wins because the receiving end has to spend half an hour being sure they evaded, which can only be certain when the RWR shuts up. I believe it could pan out to be a new type of boring. Worse yet with more advanced Actives coming down the line (Think R-27EA knowing how the ER already is since it's something we can actually visualize with the current game).
Hard Disagree, with the current updates to the dev server with the changes to multi pathing, this has been my favorite place top tier air has been since the F-14 first got added
I think this is a superb change and that it's a good thing that many knife fighter planes like the grippen won't be able to just faceroll their way into the merge. Multipath nerfs may very well lead to players striving to standoff at BVR ranges where BVR tactics like notching are more viable.
@@linkist6599 then merge, spend all high-off boresight fox-2s, pull the dude into your hud, get third partied. Much better than spending all radar guided missiles and having all of them dive into the ground imo.
I don’t see how making skill more important is a bad thing. I’m sorry but even the most mentally impaired person can manage to not crash into the ground with this being set to a 100 meters, and even 50 meters is honestly extremely easy. As far as I’m concerned they can push it to low enough that it becomes nearly impossible to make use of multipathing in some areas so actually knowing the maps and/or recognizing opportunities to use the map becomes more important for all game modes. (Yes I know some maps would be a bit imbalanced with this but in pretty sure that those who would be trying to pull this off would also largely give up any offensive position they have so it’s a trade off). Rb and sb definitely need smaller teams for this though, not as a chance but as a guaranteed thing when you choose to select that option
The people mass disliking this video are not fully watching and understanding what's being said here. For the CURRENT GAMEMODES this game has, this is not a good idea. Is it more realistic? Sure. Is it a good idea with a lower playercount? probably. But the idea of this in 16v16 is kinda.... eeeeh. It may work, it may not, but actually debating this topic is very much something we should do, simply because of how massively this actually effects the game at these higher tiers and even at lower tiers, as this multipathing will effect earlier radar missiles to a lesser degree.
I think this would be a great change only if it was accompanied by a reduction in team sizes, the current toggle where you have a "chance" of getting a 12v12 game instead of 16v16 is very lacking. I do support the change overall. It's a new skill that people need to learn, the new skill needed is not "how do I dodge 5-6-10 missiles coming at me without multipathing". I think it's just a new version of what we saw with IRCCM, instead of just popping flares once and forgetting about it, now we need to keep an eye out to not get an R73 shot from our 6 or a 9M from the side. It works the same way with radar misssiles. Now we need to keep in mind the distance between us and the enemy, as well as using terrain to avoid missiles. Because remember, if the terrain is too uneven to abuse multipathing, you can then use it to block line of sight. And if they try to counter that by climbing to have a better view, now you can drag him towards your team. I'm not sayiong the change is great, specially regarding the state of ARB currently, but it's just foolish to base changes around team sizes when that's the main issue everyone has been complaining about at top tier, and even gaijin has shown they believe it to be a problem with their new toggle, even if they're not ballsy enought to just change the default gamemode.
@@rodolfodeoliveira638 I said 12v12 because, technically, the current matchmaker is 6v6 to 16v16, so the toggle really only caps the team sizes at 12. The reason you don't see 6v6 at top tier is because of the sheer amount of people playing. And the same thing will happen with the toggle, you will theoretically be able to find 6v6 matches, but realistically you won't. And it still works based on chance, they said that it will depend on how many people have the toggle on, which means that people will first need to know that it exists. And I can assure you 75% op top tier players won't read the notes, they'll probably watch a YT video 3 weeks into the patch and then turn it on.
Being able to fly high and use ARHM as they would be used. This is a great change, even Skyflash and Aim-7M can hit targets at 15-30m. Players will no longer be able to fly low with zero fear of retaliation. You can also use terrain Gaijin have given you cities/canyons and valleys you can use to hide your signature from TWS and ARHM. The player base is putting in bug reports for realism, but we dont want realistic missiles?
In my opinion, your analysis is missing a big piece of the puzzle. You are picturing what this change would do to gameplay in the current meta, and not taking into account what impact it's going to have on the meta itself. This will kill the flare-spamming furball, which is a good thing. It will force engagements to take place at longer distances until people start running out of fox 3s.
Love people forgetting that most 11.0 and above jets have less than 100 flares/chaff. If we say that all jets have on average 6 missiles that would be 6*16 missiles on each team at least. Then we also have the jets with 8-10 missiles each. If we now also need to waste let’s say 5-10 chaff to evade each radar missile then those 64 flares/chaffs on gen 3 jets will very quickly run out. While most jets will only have 2-4 radar missiles that is still 32-64 radar missiles.
If that’s your reasoning for this being “unplayable”, the simple solution is to LEARN HOW TO DEFEND AGAINST RADAR MISSILES. Staying outside the MAR, cranking, notching, and turning cold. Tree hugging to a merge is NOT engaging at all.
@kennedy.nola_ Typically, when you defend, you use countermeasures to help you defend. If you want to try to out run the missile, and only that while your team just threw itself in the meat grinder be my guest.
It wasn't particularly hard to stay low though even as someone who doesn't play war thunder very much anymore. This change encourages people to stay at range and actually use these aircraft the way they were meant to be used. It would 100% make the game more slow and passive though. Personally, I like that but whether or not the reduction of multipathing is a good or bad thing will be largely chalked up to personal preference.
It's not bad as you are saying, it's harder to defend missiles by staying low but still doable. At least the meta will change a bit and someone can actually climb without being an easy target for all of you ground hugger. Plus the skill you are talking about it's just flying low, there are a lot of skills involved in BVRs engagement, I think it's time to learn them.
@@ferrous3262 I'm not talking about dying because of ground huggers. My point is that if I fire a BVR missile at least it should put my enemy in a defensive aspect. In the current game you can close the distance between you and your enemy just by staying low and this forces the IRCCM fox2 meta and furballs we all hate.
3:25 in areas with hills that make it difficult, just use the terrain by putting it between you and the radar source. It’s not making the gameplay worse, it’s just making different terrain mean more because you can’t just use the same hug the ground play style on all the maps as you could anymore.
Thanks for talking about this. As someone who likes to play a variety of planes instead of what is stictly meta, ive been worrying about this change a lot with planes like the f16 adf, mig 29, and every other plane with a low amount of countermeasures or poor bvr capability. One thing i think is really going to suffer from this is any plane trying to stock grind. Not only do you not have no access to bvr missiles, but no access to chaff either.
Warthunder players when they actually have to play the game (They are incapable of gameplay more complicated than flying low and spamming IR missiles until they die)
I feel the exact opposite about this change, its a very welcome one even in RB, especially since it introduces more skill over braindead low flying. Flying in the general vicinity of the ground should never have been a magic all powerfull missile shield, it allowed players to defeat an entire aspect of top tier air without meaningfully having to change their tactics. The simple reality of BVR Active Radar missiles is that you can't just fly straight towards the enemy team headon and expect to be fine, and Multipathing was the single reason that you could. If people prefer to zerg rush they can do so carefree at lower BRs. Now you bring up the concern that these shots are harder to defend against and that one may need more countermeasures instead as the main negative aspect about the change, but entirely neglect two alternatives to head on rushing that reliably defeat Fox-3s: 1. Kinematically defeating the missile via manuevering and especially smart positioning. You made a point of showing how difficult it was for that F-16 to escape your 5 kilometre amraam shot, but a shot like that *should* practically be a death sentence for the target. They royally screwed up by carelessly flying that close to 4th gen adversaries and shouldnt have a get out of jail free card thats easy to pull without actively focusing on defending. Another way to look at this is by comparing it to low tier, the refusal to position your plane in a tactically sound way at BVR tier is akin to complaining that people that climb in prop tiers end up in a better position and defeat you. 2. Leading missiles into the ground and generally using hard terrain as cover. That means flying behind a mountain or similar full obstructions to break line of sight, or pitching downwards so that a missile trying to lead you ends up hitting the ground. Both already work very well against Fox-1s The real problem with this change is the 16v16 team sizes, which cause Furballs and make it hard to actually defend against any one attack or even notice them reliably. One thing the reduction of Multipathing does do is disincentivising flying into a Furball further, since its more difficult not to catch a stray missile. In this way the Multipathing change directly improves top tier in more than one way, it reduces furballs and puts emphasis on flying intelligently, and using other altitudes than perpetually hugging the ground. I'd be curious about your thoughts, since I am also just personally a fan of BVR missile jousting over confusing furballs, but that sentiment may not be shared by others.
I think is a amzing change for RB. Currently the gameplay is fly low go in to the merch spam flares and shoot IR missile and die. It requires 0 skill and anyone that has a flare key bind and know how to fire a missile can do it. Its extremely boring and 2 dimensional gameplay. That way you will be forced to learn how to notch. Also with the massive buff to chaff notching the ARH missile is super easy so it wouldn't even require that mutch skill. The only way they can fix top tier and make it fun again. is my changing the multi pathing to 25m, making it 8v8 or 6v6 and my adding multiple airfield spawns like in sim. This would make it so that top tier requires skill and the people that are bad at the game can just stay at the lower BR's.
Notching won't work when you have 12 more planes ready to launch missiles at you all the time. It's just gonna be boring af. It doesn't take more skill to turn and spam countermeasures than it does to fly low. Idk what all this coping is, top tier air needs a massive rework, this won't fix anything and will only make it worse.
@@102ndsmirnov7That sounds like a you problem. If you’re under fire by a dozen missiles outside of a one sided late phase match, you (And your team) screwed up.
@@102ndsmirnov7 Do you have trouble reading? It’s not a problem if you don’t put yourself in position to be fired upon by a dozen missiles in the first place. Bad positioning is most certainly a you problem.
Im certain that if they fix 16v16 It'd make the multipathing change irrelevant because with less people firing stuff at you from the ground, more people would dare to climb and try out bvr combat While people who prefere close range engagements can hug the ground freely
People generally don't play at lower brs because of compression Top tier is the only place where you don't get uptiered. So I guess that's why some people don't want to get the meta bvr oriented
@@therealwildboar1007 unfortunately, this type of people spends 500 dollars per update and GE everything from the start, get wrecked by the ones who don't and then complain for changes to help their lazy ass, tragic.
It's not an issue for gameplay, it's an issue for braindead gameplay of flying straight forward without doing anything and dodging everything. Primitive gameplay for idiots was cultivated long enough and this is a perfect moment when you can introduce better modern mechanics. Otherwise all modern stuff will become more and more of ace combat but with "realistic" nerfs that makes little sense. We already have arcade mode and that's where old multipathing should stay.
This would be an ok change if there weren't 16 other planes with missiles to worry about, a missile launch should not always guarantee a kill and going low shouldn't be the only way to defeat it
Seriously, the problem is that we are playing on prop maps with F-15s ect. 16v16 matches. Also, If you are within 4km of the enemy and you know they have fox-3 missiles and then cry about it being "unfair", then it's just simply a skill issue
I went went into a Golan Heights custom mission with the real time information tool, and found that 95% of the trees on that map are 35m-40m tall. That leaves room for about 10m wiggle room for flying at treetop level where you can still be safe, and your tac view of the f16 flying low didn't quite make it there in time. I do find the change positive as it will make people think more strategically about how they go into fights, and make them use the terrain differently other than just relying on flying 50m ABOVE the trees. They'll have to think about how to duck behind hills and mountains effectively if the terrain is too uneven to fly AT treetop level. However, with the amount of players per game being too many, and with the small maps, it can really be overwhelming with the missile spam and make it near impossible for a player to utilize terrain effectively with the reduced multipathing effect, since there might be too many enemies firing at you from all different directions. Another problem is spotting. I don't think that if an enemy close to you spots you, that his teammate 20km+ away should be able to see your nametag. This should be limited to about a 10km bubble around you, to prevent an entire swarm of enemies seeing you fighting one person and start lobbing missiles off at you from across the galaxy. This might also encourage more people to use chat for callouts. Overall, I think Gaijin is trying to make the game "enjoyable" for people that want realism and skill to be involved, while also catering to players that don't have any skill, and bought their way to top tier. You can't have gameplay mechanics that require skill (defeating missiles without multipathing effect, etc), while also having things that require no skill (16v16 missile spam, etc). This mix of game mechanics give birth to players called "sweats" or "tryhards". The no skill path will almost always win and will always be the easiest path used to abuse skilled players, and it isn't limited to noobs. This is why GTA online for example, for those that quit playing following the introduction of the oppressor, explosive ammo, etc, is full of a bunch of brain rot. Sweaty players will learn to abuse things meant for noobs, to win against players that want a somewhat realistic and authentic experience. TLDR: I think reduced multipathing is a good thing and allows for a wider skill gap, but those skills cannot be used properly until the player count is ACTUALLY reduced, and/or spread out a lot more over a bigger map with more spawns, like sim battles. And maybe a spotting rework.
I think a way to alleviate the issues 16v16 has is to have multiple runways akin to sim, where you have 4 runways spread across each end of the map and it splits up the team equally across them, stops everyone always fighting in the centre
i dont believe that the current multipath threshold is 100m, no way in hell. I remember having to fly at like 20-30 to effectively get the missile to hit the ground.
I have do disagree due to the fact that hug the ground and "press w" rush afterburning furball meta is honestly ridiculous that it even has something in common with "realistic" (only in name lmao). But the problem lies in other factors of the gameplay too, such as team sizes and not using the maps like Afghan or large sands of Sinai as a basis for game development. Also sum scenarios would be greatly appreciated. But yeah im glad they are lowering the multipath altitude
Personally I get the feeling that reliable methods to survive multipath resistant fox3 spam will be developed. The current meta with furball irccm spam seemed impossible to survive at first. But the good players figured it out. Hell if anything, putting it like that actually makes the current meta sound harder to survive than this. Time will tell.
“How in the world are you expected to actually compete when fighting 16 people?!?!” Probably the worst argument there is for this. Top tier gameplay should not reward hugging the deck to negate any enemy missile. Positioning should be EVERYTHING. Giving your missile high PK, while lowering the enemy missile PK. All while positioning yourself to NOT get bounced by 16 people at once. If you’re actually worried about fighting the entire enemy team at once, you’re playing completely wrong. It’s a shame that people are so caught up in this deck hugging garbage gameplay, they’ve lost any and all ability to realize that you don’t actually HAVE to zerg rush the center of the map on the treetops every game. Start changing your playstyle and watch your K/D skyrocket
right lol. even the guy he killed and uses as an example in the replay is at fault for this, people will re-learn how to position themselves after this and realize thats literally all they needed to do, and with the new Fox 3s that's only been made easier. if Vtol VR can do this and make a fun pvp gameplay loop, so can they lol
So you are basically saying that you should pick your battles. OK. What do you do when you've got 4 aircraft flying in formation coming after you? How tf will you notch 4 people at once? With only 60 countermeasures?
@@matthewmcclenahan2483 yeah thats another thing, battles are too populated and turn into just furballs. if this werent an issue people would have no real argument against nerfing multipath. set your sights on the gamemode and battles themselves rather than dying on this particular hill
@@matthewmcclenahan2483 teamwork. The same thing they are doing. Stop putting yourself into a position where you have to fight at such an extreme disadvantage. If this happens and you die, learn from your mistakes and move forward. Playing with friends to fly formation with can help too. Not to mention being able to put more than 1 of them defensive by firing multiple Fox 3’s and disengaging as best as possible is something you can do now too There’s a lot of ways to do it, and I’ve won multiple 1v4’s when played correctly as most people are smoothbrain players. Don’t get locked into a can’t-do mentality. Find ways out of the situation and learn from them moving forward
I agree with your comments in the video, lowering that multi-pathing height for RB is nuts. The main complaint in Sims is due to the swiss jets hugging the ground, by lowering multi pathing thresholds they can play more "realistic" in SIM. If gaijin wants to be even more accurate/realistic with top tier they could put a radar aircraft in the game that highlights/feeds the location of every aircraft in a 100+ mile radius to team mates.
I totally agree with the fact that a 16v16 game with reduced multipath will be horrible but you have to understand that this is not a problem with the reduction of multipath itself but rather a problem with the number of players that we have been complaining about for at least a year. For me, the multipath could be reduced to 30 meters to be honest, but in fact the number of players needs to be reduced by half for everything to be comfortable.
It's really not that bad, Im excited for this new gameplay style. Also the first clip where you showed how multipathing failed the F-16 is exactly how it would have gone with the 100m multipathing AoA of the missile combined with the multipath target being essentially where he was flying brought the missile down on top of him, he was screwed regardless
IMHO: timmies will cry. A lot. But fox1 fights will be MUCH more enjoyable. And I'd love any shift from ir spam meta we currently have. Probably I'd play wt more than dcs
it baffles me that people think it's a good idea to introduce the multipathing nerf in the same update as proliferated ARH. It's as if nothing has been learned from the years of poorly implemented feature/power creep.
I think the change to multipath is a good change for SIM since there isnt as many people and the maps are fairly large. However it is definitely a bad change for air rb. It will only be feasible for air RB if they reduce the amount of players in each lobby. Otherwise it'll be impossible to defend and defeat every missile.
@@ferrous3262 Top Tier SB has a lot of players, especially when centrain BR line-ups are around - Saying that it has less players than Naval is blatant non-sense.
@@ferrous3262I don't agree. In the few of my games with the F15A&Su27 i didn't even had the chance to go back to the airfield. I destroyed an f16 then a F15 appeared and vica versa.
I understand BVR, I get the MAR, I am in complete agreement with you. I think a lot of people are thinking "I can get a lot of kills if Multipathing is gone" but not really considering that it effects them too. I think a couple things should happen before we get into BVR meta. 1. Larger maps, at the current map size we pretty much enter the MAR way too soon after take off. 2. Smaller teams, I just don't see most players tracking the distance of 16 enemies successfully. All it takes is one F15 to sneak through (Cause we all know OUR teammates are very good right?) And half your team is murdered. 3. Maybe Jammer aircraft? I'm unsure about that one on how to implement. It could be balanced due to HOJ being a thing, so your jammer cant just loiter the entire match at the back of the map, but I will leave it to Gaijin to figure that out lol. In conclusion, removing multipathing will basically turn into, Get within MAR, Spam all my missiles, and everyone dies, OR whoever has the better side of the map (terrain cover) steam rolls the enemy team. Either way, it will be very.... Interesting.
I’m sure radar doesn’t take into account the trees in game. So I am fine with an artificial multipathing boost to account for dense trees. If that makes sense.
All valid points... however, I see it this way. If we are going to reduce the effectiveness of ARH missiles and these modern supersonic aircraft with the ability to do BVR to the point that all one has to do to negate all radar advantages of the enemy is to fly below 100m, then the capabilities of IRCCM, thrust vectoring, high G missiles (in combination with HMD) with the ability to predict the target's movements, should also not have been added or should be nerfed. We either have realistic capabilities, or we don't. If we have realistic IR missiles, we should have realistic ARH missiles and radars to counteract the brainless meta of deck hugging until the player reaches the massive furball, gets 2 or 3 IR kills, and then dies to the infinite amount of IR missiles coming at them. IMO, having multipathing reduced to more realistic amounts (not eliminated) is a good change because it gives planes with radar capabilities (and modern jets with ARH missiles) a way to play to their advantage. It also gives some realism, and it counteracts the noob players who know nothing about top tier except fy low, fling IRCCM IR missiles with HMD, and get free kills before dying. If we must have realism with IR, we must have realism all around. Personally, I would much rather have more BVR in which players are required to think about their engagement, defend, etc., before going to the merge, rather than utilizing the multipathing crutch to get to a merge with the enemy team and get more free kills before dying. And it will encourage players to fly high like these modern jets were meant to do. I think those who don't want that kind of gameplay, should go to arcade and there multipathing can be larger. And to clarify, team sizes need to be reduced for anyone to truly enjoy top-tier air RB, along with an increase in rewards for damage, kills, and ground kills. 16v16 is the real problem. But I am sick to death of deck hugging, IRCCM furballs. Not only will this change weed out the noobs who bought their way to top tier, (and force them to learn how to play), it will balance the IRCCM meta a bit more.
I don’t understand any of your arguments. 4:30 There’s no way for him to counter by flying straight at me very low! This completely ignores the fact that he already lost the battle by losing situational awareness and putting himself in a low situation low energy position. Re-adjusting multi pathing move the gameplay loop from just fly low and hope the enemies aren’t playing attention when I shoot an amraam or irccm missile towards something much more compelling: How’s my SA? what’s my energy state? If I turn hot now to engage this one enemy where will that put me and who will be on my flank? This will make the gameplay reward critical thinking rather than fast twitch ground avoidance
Do you know what else will put you at a low energy state? Constantly going cold,hot,cold,hot, because theres 16 planes with multiple fox 3s ready to launch.
@@WelsyCZ Don't bother. I am betting half the people begging for multipath to go will be the ones complaining when they get 16v16 matches literally 99/100 times.
Most these people celebrating this change will regret it: if you think "everyone hugging the deck is no skill" then wait until you see the entire 16v16 lobby fire 8 ARH missiles and all turn cold immediately to land and reload. Top tier is about to become a Napoleonic infantry shootout ;)
@@scharrkyea ofc the Same gamemode where you have genetically super pilots that pull 15g’s, and fight in 2/2 km maps with 32 people in unrealistic flight models. My favourite *realistic* game
Oh here we go crying again... if modern fox 3 are to much for you, just play lower br and that is it, multipath is absurd, you could add Meteor missile right now and only by flying low could be dodged??? ridiculous, there are many ways to survive fox 3, flying low should NOT be an option.
@@jcdenton9569 yeah, what do you want Fox3 for then? That Is the whole point of it Then the community asking for stuff like Eurofighter or F-35 but at the same time complain about "MisSiLeS aRe to Op"
The F14 is oppressively overpowered when you are a full BR below it. Regularly see 6-9 teammates dead to BVR before we even have radar contacts. 11.0-11.3 is awful because of these jets.
Don't blindly go into the missile. The number one reason why you even get a missile in your face 2 miles or less away is because you made the mistake of going into that position. You're liable for your own mistakes. Don't take it out on the mechanics because you lack the ability to pay attention to your surroundings.
@@jpc6485I have a video up on reddit showing how easy a F5F Bot kinetically defends an RB 99 from my Gripn on the Dev Server. Multipathing change and Fox 3's are not the death star you make it out to be even in a 16v16!
One simple solution to all the problems u mentioned: go cold at 20-30 km. Defeats all missles with 0 chaff/flare (maybe except the phoenix and when u recommit after 30-60 secs it cant follow your turn anymore so you can defeat it too). Just be aware of your surroundings
this ain’t destroying top tier, it’s making it more BVR oriented, which is what these current top top tier fighters are built for and supposed to do, it also makes it harder for the goober la that fly in a damn straight line into the battle
I feel like everyone explaining different ways you can dodge radar missiles didnt even watch the video and missed the point. Personally i wouldn't mind the MP change if the game allowed it to be balanced, but in the current state of the game it wont be. First of all, the player count especially on smaller maps makes dodging radar missiles without MP nearly impossible. Imagine city or the small Afghanistan map, where within a minute of the game starting, both teams are already within 10km of each other with 16 players each. Second of all this is gonna be so awful for planes with lower countermeasure amounts, people will need to bring chaff once again, but only having 30 of each will most definitely not be enough with the playercount. Not to mention irccm missiles still being around, without running something like flare reinforced will make flaring those all the more difficult. Third, BR compression will be so awful, especially with stock planes. Im just imagining trying to upgrade my stock mig29 with like 2 basic IR missiles and standard flares, going against fox3 missiles. I mean thats genuinely near uncounterable on certain maps. I would also argue that the awful spotting range will contribute to this not being a good change. Despite the name air rb isnt meant to be super realistic in its current state, you can literally fly your plane with your mouse for godsake. I dont care if they did this in simulator, but i really hope they dont do this in RB.
The change to multipathing isn’t a problem at all, the entire environment of top tier arb is the problem. 16 players starting at the exact same spot on either side and meeting in a huge fur ball in the middle is the problem. We’ve got some really big maps, but even on these, you always see the same pattern. Lowering the max height for multipathing to take effect only makes the radar missiles a viable load out option. If anything, you should be more complaining about the arb game mode. Make it more similar to asb and we will already see an improvement.
@@GeneralLee2000 That's why I said "more", it wasn't my intention to imply, that you don't complain about these issues. My point is, that you described a problem, that isn't caused by lowering the max height for multipathing. Shifting the discussion towards if this change is good or bad, will at best result in gaijin not changing anything. I want arb to explode and result into a massive problem for gaijin, so they finally do something of value. War Thunder is a massive asset pool, that gaijin is currently not able to really utilize, because they simply can't come up with good game modes.
I think this is actually a good change since it dinally enables less manouverable planes with more ordinance to bcome somewhat relevant. At the moment you just jump in your Gripen, hug the ground and just preflare every IR missile whilst winning basically every dogfight... whatever happens through this change it'll be better than what we currently have
I think it’ll encourage actually using your brain to play arb and hopefully force gaijin to lower how many people are in a match. We asked for a change and now we are finally getting something, thanks gaijin 😅
it's a massive problem for lower tier aircraft with only semi actives that have to fight aircraft with fox 3s. it will make stock aircraft without a competitive loadout with go from almost unplayable to entirely unplayable. as in, people will literally not be able to progress. it will pigeonhole gaijin into being forced to fix the matchmaking and stock missile choices. gaijin accelerationism, get onboard.
This is actually way more realistic now, also notching the modern Fox-3's should be very very hard. This creates more interesting gameplay options in general since you can't just fly low and straight and Fox-2 every living fuck. You now have to actually tactically play. So yes, GOOD. BUT, and a BIG BUT, Air RB needs to change, there needs to be more objectives, more airfields, bigger maps, more then one respawn, less players etc.
What more interesting gameplay? It will be decided by who has the better missile and if I want to sling missiles and defend I would simply go play DCS. In war thunder at least there is 1 in 10 game where you get to merge with people.
Please watch the video before commenting 🙏. Yes, I know how to notch, go cold, chaff etc and I do it in the video. Thank you!
You will be proven right when all these 'jUsT nOtcH' people realise that the multipathing change applies to missiles fired at them as well
Mr. CC man do you know how to notch?
@@Hurin170 my guy needs to learn how to bvr and accept where top tier is heading towards
I did watch the whole video, Not Saying you don't know how to notch and all that. My point is I don't think this is a bad change, it will encourage people to actually learn how to be more technical and strategic instead of just hugging the ground all game.
Plus you made a comment about not having as easy of an option with multipathing if there are 16 people firing missiles at you. My counterargument to that is, if you find yourself in a situation where 16 other people are firing missiles at you, you've probably made a mistake to begin with.
People keep saying this'll add more skill, but it's just going to be the current fox 2 meta higher up. Once the update hits, people will whine and moan. The only way to save top tier would be to drastically cut down the player count per match. That way there aren't missiles coming at you from 360 degrees above and below and the situation is actually manageable. BVR is fine and all, but right now top tier plays like a first person shooter.
The missile is about to find where it is
Or just go off in a random direction.
Missile gonna rail yo ass
Missile gonna rail yo ass
B-but we play War Thunder to destroy stuff🥹
The missile knows where it is at all times, it knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't or where it isn't from where it is. (Wichever is greater) it observes a deviation or a difference. The internal guidance unit....
I wonder how much of fun it be for stock planes with 2x AIM-9L without chaff to fight in BVR environment.
the CM change could fix this if they make it so you dont have to research chaff and can just load however much you feel is necessary
Imagine trying to stock grind the Tornado F.3 Late, F4F LWS or Sea Harrier FRS 2 in this new meta x D
That was my first though, you are not going to get a kill until you have radar missiles with this change.
@@TheOriginalCocaNah you still Can do it you gotta folow the terrain
@@therealwildboar1007 farming for the event's tornado IDS (big pain)
This isn't the problem. The problem is 16v16 and map design
THIS.
multipathing is realistic yes but highly exaggerated, much like alot of things ingame that need to be toned down like *match sizes*
Yup
@@iceicebabyil Try notching 16 missiles at the same time...
they have adressed the team sizes. an option to toggle (like night battles) to play smaller servers for 2-12 players.. kindve weird to see people complain about relatively advanced missiles doing what they are meant to. they are meant to be hard to evade. and if you are close to the ground you have no where to go.. hence altitude is life.
@@davef2108 yes sorry bud but that’s not them addressing the problem. It’s more like them kissing a bleeding wound.
The toggle they are introducing is the same type of toggle as night battles for tanks. How often do you get night battles? Because I can say for myself it’s 1 battle ever 2-3weeks if even that. This isn’t going to change anything since the player has to know about it and actually go in and toggle it on since it’s set to off by default. How many people do you think will go and do that?
Meta's already going to change, this seems like the right update to mess with this
The way I look at it, Gajin can't make top tier any worst than it already is. In fact, I welcome the change, it will prevent low altitude suicide rushes into the middle of the map; most matches don't even last five minutes. My friends and I play Custom Battles at alt, it's so much more fun and dynamic.
Fr idk why he wants them to keep multipathing he just isn't smart bc he wants it to stay a boring shit ir slinging furball fights @@jayklink851
I went went into a Golan Heights custom mission with the real time information tool, and found that 95% of the trees on that map are 35m-40m tall. That leaves room for about 10m wiggle room for flying at treetop level where you can still be safe, and your tac view of the f16 flying low didn't quite make it there in time.
I do find the change positive as it will make people think more strategically about how they go into fights, and make them use the terrain differently other than just relying on flying 50m ABOVE the trees. They'll have to think about how to duck behind hills and mountains effectively if the terrain is too uneven to fly AT treetop level. However, with the amount of players per game being too many, and with the small maps, it can really be overwhelming with the missile spam and make it near impossible for a player to utilize terrain effectively with the reduced multipathing effect, since there might be too many enemies firing at you from all different directions.
Another problem is spotting. I don't think that if an enemy close to you spots you, that his teammate 20km+ away should be able to see your nametag. This should be limited to about a 10km bubble around you, to prevent an entire swarm of enemies seeing you fighting one person and start lobbing missiles off at you from across the galaxy. This might also encourage more people to use chat for callouts.
Overall, I think Gaijin is trying to make the game "enjoyable" for people that want realism and skill to be involved, while also catering to players that don't have any skill, and bought their way to top tier. You can't have gameplay mechanics that require skill (defeating missiles without multipathing effect, etc), while also having things that require no skill (16v16 missile spam, etc). This mix of game mechanics give birth to players called "sweats" or "tryhards". The no skill path will almost always win and will always be the easiest path used to abuse skilled players, and it isn't limited to noobs. This is why GTA online for example, for those that quit playing following the introduction of the oppressor, explosive ammo, etc, is full of a bunch of brain rot.
Sweaty players will learn to abuse things meant for noobs, to win against players that want a somewhat realistic and authentic experience.
TLDR: I think reduced multipathing is a good thing and allows for a wider skill gap, but those skills cannot be used properly until the player count is ACTUALLY reduced, and/or spread out a lot more over a bigger map with more spawns, like sim battles. And maybe a spotting rework.
@@jayklink851 Same, it feels boring in top tier air RB just going low and left every match, hopefully this will change that.
Can you imagine a player getting to top tier, stock grinding a Jet with only flares and 2 IR missiles in a FOX-3 meta with no multipathing for defense? I think this feels like a "buy golden eagles to spade you vehicle" change more than anything 👀. BVR fights are cool in DCS, in a 2v2, 1v1, people are not taking into consideration the 16v16. With IR missiles and SARH it's already a mess, now you'll always have a missile coming for you with so much noise in the RWR that it won't even make sense. Hopefully they'll do more tests before implementing this, it makes no sense adding a realistic feature if the game mode itself feels more like a Halo Big Team Battle deathmatch. Great video!
Gaijin literally changed the matchmaker from 16v16 to a min of 6v6 to a max of 12v12; why are you guys complaining so much about a Dev server change when you conviniently ignore the other huge dev server change? Stop pretending and just assume all you guys want is to hug trees and launch fox2s at people, the number of players is not the problem for you guys, the need to adapt to a higher skill gameplay is.
@@rodolfodeoliveira638 They did NOT do that. THEY MADE IT AN OPTION LIKE NIGHT BATTLES.
It will happen once every 100 games.
@@ryanfreeman5083 and thats why gaijin needs to push through with the multipathing change, and basically MAKE the community demand lower match sizes. its the only way gaijin listens
I always climb anyway. They could reduce multipathing to zero idc as long as notching still works
Cool. You will lose both options next patch :)
Finally a reasonable answer
Well, it was really frustrating that anyone could just hug the ground and be safe from radar missiles. Now it will actually take skill and proper positioning or actual BVR combat tactics. And people will have to learn and adapt. People always scream that x change will completely destroy the game. People said the same about Heatseekers, then the good radar missiles and before now it was the IRCCM Missiles. The game will not die and people will adapt and find tactics. Chaff actually is viable now and we can learn how to use it. A few people will leave yes, because they refuse to adapt.
I mean top tier doesn't really take 'skill' to do well, its just luck at this point. This is just gonna make those chances even lower than before.
Clowns will leave, ones we didn’t want in the game in the first place
the sparrows missing 90 percent of the shots launched beyond 10km against high targets:
@@iceicebabyilwhat clowns? About how easy it is to defeat aim9m's and magic 2s but not r73s? About russia having the best set of missiles? about F-5s suffering the same issues as the zeroes?
@@iceicebabyil it's literally the hardest 😭
Lee you know you’re my best friend but I’m gonna have to disagree with you here buddy. I’m tired of the deck hugging meta in top tier games and this will hopefully encourage people to climb again and we can actually get some high alt bvr engagements instead of the deck hugging into furball loop we have now.
16v16 is still another issue that needs to be changed though.
16v16 is the biggest issue, this change wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if there were less people in lobbies
we need air rb ec, with multiple airfields, more time and respawns.
the current maps force you into a furball, 16v16 isnt the issue, the maps are.
16v16 is definitely the issue here not the multipath change
@@ivancsontos7011 i agree apart from respawns. i think that it's a good idea for the most part but it should be another gamemode RB EC, The maps are part of the issue but i think that if gajjin implement what you said about the maps then the players will storm toward the middle anyway if the maps are big unless they're bombing. So i think that a huge part of the problem is the playercount of each match. if we have 8v8 or 10v10 it would be MUCH more enjoyable imo. It would make it possible to do bvr without having to pay attention to that many people and getting randomly killed all of the time becasue of the spotting system etc.
lmao im flying even lower now, idfc about your "bvr engagements"
Step one, turn cold. Step two, hammer the throttle. Step three, Turn hot once you're sure the missile has missed. Hiding under 100m is NOT the only way to defeat radar missiles, nor should it be the most effective.
exactly!!!
+1
And stay out of the MAR
Tornados are gonna get bumfucked even harder once the update hits 😭
i hope gaijin focuses on making more terrain varied maps before they push out this update, even now if you try to "go cold" against most missiles they catch up with you, especially against fox3s since you now wont know immediately when they are launched if its bvr until a. the radar hardlocks or b. the missile's radar locks you
Too many people are seeing this as "good no more low altitude furballs!" like suddenly the problem is going to disappear instead of it just being exactly the same just with ARH missiles instead of IR. I get that this is more realistic but realism doesn't necessarily translate to good gameplay. Matches are still going to be 12v12 and 16v16 most of the time meaning you have anywhere from 36 to well over 50 potential missiles to worry about (which is the root of the issue), the only difference is now it's harder to defend against most of them.
Jesus some sense in the comments. The problem isn't gone. It's just different.
Ffs Im mad reading other comments.finally someone knowing what his talking about
My 60 countermeasures (30 flares and 30 chaff) will love notching the entire enemy teams arsenal of FOX-3s. Gameplay will be 1. notch 4 missiles, 2. return to base to restock countermeasures, 3. repeat.
you dont even need cm to dodge long range fox 3s, turn cold for a few seconds then recommit and it most likely wont have the energy to hit you
@@desertrecce5676 ahh even more fun, going forward then going back and then repeat smh
@@ludvigarstrand9666 quite literally a few seconds. by the time you turn onto the 3-9 line the missile probably isn’t going to hit you if it’s burner is already out. you’ll see when it goes live just how easy it’ll be. these fox 3s will only be inescapable inside like 8 miles, cuz at that point you can’t run.
@@desertrecce5676 and those 8 miles are where 90% of the games take place lol. This update will only make top tier worse than it already is.
My feeling is a lot of people are about to get exactly what they wished for and subsequently realize how boring BVR is in comparison to the more knife-fight-esque gameplay we have currently. I didn't get top tier in War Thunder to play DCS with less steps. The quest for more realism might not always lead to more enjoyable gameplay.
the reduced height is an amazing change, imagine actually having to defend or notch instead of just spamming flares in a merge 24/7 hugging the floor. if this change stays then we might actually see missiles having the ability to force somebody go cold instead of just everybody rushing into a merge into missiles that are destined to miss due to this silly balancing mechanic.
Yeah that's boring I dont play to spend 10 minutes doing boring flight manoeuvres, it's why low tier sucks, to much time wasted doing nothing
If they give enough countermeasures to spam
@@blackjack8697 Flying low requires 0 skill and is insanely boring. If they remove multi pathing it would make it that top tier requires actual skill. Which would be great. The noobs like you can just play on the lower BR and bomb bases together.
@@blackjack8697 then go play arcade? battles should take time especially with bvr as you want to combat and fire at them in the NEZ while staying out of their NEZ.
@@blackjack8697go play ace combat or air arcade then bro ts makes matches actually fun repeatedly flying low and spamming ir missiles getting a few kills then doing it all over is literally insanity branch out more learn how to actually do something other than go full after burner for an entire match below 50 ft
Thank god I'm seeing people back up this change in the comments, I for one cant wait to actually have go cold, 9 3 line, and actually be careful of the MAR for ARH missiles. I get this game was arcady in the past but come on, you are talking about the game that is slowly adding more and more parts to vehicles that can be disabled/ destroyed, in fact they market their game as being "realistic" in that sense.
It's not about the point of beeing realistic but rather the fact that planes like the Gripen are basically unbeatable, even if the other player is actually better
@@bluefox9436 That's kind of the point in improving technology isn't it.
@@Kryoic not if that's due to an unrealistic restriction set by the game...
Honestly I disagree just because hugging the ground is not fun gameplay at all. They should pair this change with reducing the amount of players in a match though.
Then make hugging the dirt not the only viable way to dodge missiles. 12v12, 16v16 it is near impossible to dodge Radar Missiles when they come from 10 directions and can track you from behind. Even if you do defend you just get r73d or aim9md to oblivion by planes with 10 missiles who can just spam 2-3 and can damn near guarantee a kill
Exactly like they have to do both at the same time, not one and then the other.
@@Whiteghost785did you read his comment? He mentioned pairing this change with smaller matches…
reducing the MP is a great change, and they should reduce it even more for the fox3. it will put end to brainded gameplay
yea because launching a missile requires alot of brain power
@@ferrous3262 Acually yes if u wanna have a killer lunch with radar missile unlike the brain dead fox2 meta
also it will force you to shoot, defend, recommet and reengage
notching finally will become a thing
@@ferrous3262 cry about it
@@gravityhighway1254 youre the ones crying about not getting free kills when you launch a missile
I understand what you're saying, but I still want the reduced height. The entire top tier gameplay is stale. Everyone flys in low and it just ends up being a fur ball because everyone gets too close because they aren't worried about getting hit. This is will 100% stop some fur balls. It will either outright kill people trying to push in or it will force people to play defensive. Either way I'm good with having less fur balls. Top tier has no skill to it, it's easy to fly, fast moving/climbing planes, smart weapon systems, and no thinking ahead. It might as well be an arcade mode. There is way more skill involved in mid BR aircraft. Top tier needs some skill added.
Your the one with no skill😂
@@TransportSupremo Post your in game name if you're the cat's ass then 🤣 Ace
@@D4nger_CLO5E its right there bozo
@@TransportSupremo projection 100
Hey at least you're reasonable about it, I appreciate it. Personally I disagree but we'll probably have to see how it turns out 🤣. I dread trying to play anything without ARH missiles at top tier next update.
2:21 flying low is no skill
Watch tornados who wanna bomb get clapped.
Notching a missile takes even less skill, theres literal bots that can do it lol. The skill in this game is in entirely different places, like awareness and mechanical skill, which this change both eliminates.
Right? Skilled enough to stay at low altitude? In sim maybe but air RB? The plane flies itself for you lol, literally everyone in air RB can fly low, it's not a skill.
@@_YellovvJacket_ "Notching a missile takes even less skill" Hahaha!! Saying that notching takes less skill than flying low and turning off your brain is some wild statement. Is this why 3/4 of players can't/won't notch??
like shooting missiles takes any skill in the first place
Multipath is a part that needs to be refined, not just an element to delete.
The multipath requirement now is harsh considering that trees or buildings are bizarrely huge in this game.
Without multipath, the winner becomes clear. Nothing can beat the speed and weapon range of f14 or f15.
"We’re do people see skill in nerfing multi-pathing? It is still 16 v 16 and will be who can fire first. Either you’re the one who fires first and holds lock, or you are the one who is defending. That’s the same gameplay we have with the Su-27 right now, but now everyone is gonna have it. This will just get people to continue flying low and try to get close fox 3 shots on their enemy because it’s easier to notch and use the ground at the same time to defeat the missiles. This is just how War Thunder goes though; people rant for a change, and when it comes to live, and it’s not what they expected, they complain."
Thank you, the real issue is 16 vs 16, people forget that ARB isn’t dcs, I don’t find gameplay where you are just jousting from multiple km away entertaining, I completely understand it for sim, but not for ARB
i feel like this will force people to be scared of getting close to the enemy, with this change it will be much harder to form a furball.
I encourage all of you to watch AeroTurtles videos on it, he shows how it can make the game more interesting
@@SHEEPS_123 wow it's almost like you described BVR combat. If only there was tactics to overcome that and close the gap... Oh wait there is
THANK YOU SOMEONE HAD TO SAY IT PEOPLE COMPLAIN BECAUSE THEY SUCK
@@CityLightsMusic unless… OH WAIT those tactics are completely obsolete with war thunder match sizes (and no not everyone likes smaller games, the majority of people i know prefers 16v16, its just that the people that want smaller match sizes are the ones screaming, so it seems like the majority wants that)
Multipath isnt realistic for these new missiles so im fine with the direction they are taking
the way multipathing was implemented was already not realistic for the missiles we had. I wish gaijin would fix the real problems - team sizes and shitty maps - after which toned down multipathing would be great, but that would require actual work
Honestly in my opinion I don't know that this really ruins the gamemode more than it's already been ruined. Makes radar missiles less useless because right now you can just fly kinda low to completely negate them, and it's not even that skillful to do that, it's just silly. If anything, halving the multipathing height might make it actually skillful instead of being nearly effortless as it is right now.
You mentioned player count, and I'll also bring up stock grind being worse because no radar missiles, but also these are already both major issues, and multipath was never the solution or fix to those in the first place. But yeah, there should be a test event with these changes for sure to make sure nothing is too crazy.
exactlyyy, so many other problems in the game are in such a state, its wild to me people have their sights set so hard on THIS multipath nerf. it'd genuinely add some (desperately needed) dynamics beyond skirting treetops to a merge so you can spam IRCCM fox 2s and die lol...
especially considering that gaijin's set the framework to make each missile multipath to individual extents, meaning they can create a gradient of slowly ever-improving missiles against multipath as you climb closer to top tier- its a great way to acclimate players as they go past rank VII.
like really, i feel like u can basically guarantee people wouldnt be making such a hullabaloo about this if the battles and gamemodes werent in such a sorry state. multipathing nerfs are not that earthshattering lol, especially if gaijin makes good on their word about smaller battles.
people think its a step backwards, but its actually one of the few steps in the right direction ive seen gaijin take in a while, and if they keep pairing it with other steps in the right direction like smaller round sizes and gamemode revamps, the game's gonna be so much better off honestly. ppl need to learn other ways of spoofing missiles than just flying low somehow!!! if there werent 96 missiles in each battle, that'd become much more feasible. -whether gaijin will do that or not however...-
I think the skill massively depends on the terrain. Flat map like Sinai? Super easy. Pyrennes? Mad respect if you can reliably multipath. If they changed stuff like the player count BEFORE this change I would be more open to it.
@@GeneralLee2000 the player count is the underlying issue. Gaijin really needs to start listening to all the players and CCs telling them for years that this is too much...
I get plenty of use out of sarh’s, all you have to do is wait fir them to go up
@@stormjet814 what if they never go up lmao. What a dumb argument dude
People about to learn what the MAR is and to avoid it. Honestly this change is long overdue, people have been using the ground-hugging as a crutch for too long.
FINALLY YES
Yes so fucken tired of people abusing multipathing so happy good fox 3’s are here there’s actual skill involved now it’s great
Yea, have fun dodging missiles in the 16v16 matchmaker where 16 people, from 16 different positions throw Fox-3s at you. I mean it can‘t be that hard to understand that this aint it right haha
War Thunder was neverment to be DCS, or Falcon BMS. Dispite RB being more "realistic", it is definitely not. Everything is exaggerated. If you want to avoid the MAR, go fly DCS. Or better yet, Falcon BMS.
@@ViperPilot16 no this introduces more skill on a way that is objectively fairer almost like these things have arisen out of the technological advances that have been made in middle/radar technology and being able to actually have a back and forth fight is really nice after the years of fox 1 who’s middle hits first head one
This change would be fine with smaller player counts and larger maps but 16 v 16 where everyone is in a furball launching radar missiles at each other from like ~3 km where it's impossible to react in time to employ proper evasive maneuvers it will be cancerous
You messed up if you're that close to an enemy aircraft. Use your radar manually, find the enemy and think about positioning.
Agree with this - reducing multipathing and reducing lobby size are both required. One without the other won't produce the effect the community seems to want.
@@leftnut7508 I think this strat's gonna work very poorly this update when a bunch of people teamkill by throwing fox 3s into furballs. You do actually have to get close to enemies eventually when your BVR options dry up. And in 16v16, any early merge with a plane is going to leave you wide open to 2, 3 or more of his teammates that are more than happy to use a 27ER at AIM-9 distances.
@@BlackjackTheLad honestly I'd consider ditching the fight altogether and rearm before entering a furball if the player count is too high. Nothing wrong with rearming and thinning the numbers till a dogfight is advantageous.
Imagine stock grinding top tier without (S)ARH to begin with 💀
that's the main problem, if Gaijin introduces those changes with 2 stock sarhs I wouldn't complain.
@@thehunk1 You still have the 50 meters, defensive manuevers, and then some stock ir missiles. Will be harder but with mig-21 tactics of coming in from angles they wont expect it will be doable.
I'm good with it. Makes us learn to do something besides trim the grass in our planes. Use real tactics and maneuvers, more importantly our brains. This is going to weed out the dummies real fast, becasue they're just not gonna live long enough to get to the dogfight.
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485Who said I want 16v16? I want 9v9, 3 separate spawn airfields per side, with 3 people spawning at each.
@@PotatoeJoe69 The fact you're loving this change when gaijin will never change 16v16
@@jpc6485 Just get good buddy. God forbid you have to learn how to do anything besides hug the deck.
@@PotatoeJoe69 Yeah because skill will matter in a 16v16 clusterfuck with IRCCM and no multipathing
Most people already fly at under 50 meters altitude even tho the limit has been 100 meters, with these changes alone literally nothing will change.
I think this is a great change in my opinion, flying low is such an annoying strat. This change will really show the difference between an experienced player and someone who bombed their way to top tier with next to no air to air skill
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485 already do it 35 v 35 on DCS PvP, current experience worked really good, I'll just need to adapt a few things for warthunder format, but the ideas will work, fox 3s work all the same in principal
@@GamerFromSpace Nah, you don't. You are not capable of handling this many missiles from this many aspects. Sorry bud.
@GamerFromSpace what dcs server are you flying in where you are getting 35v35s?
@@jpc6485 you can guide only 2 missiles max ( apart from f14) using datalink. Plus top tier is filled with noobs who bombed their way to top tier
Ngl I think this is a bad take. Every issue you brought up can be resolved by lowering the MP affect even more or by changing other issues with the game currently (16v16, spotting, etc). This will be a good change and it is definitely moving in the right direction for gameplay.
Change the spotting or 16v16 BEFORE changing multipath if that's the case... shoving it in as it stands is just going to be horrible to play against
What about artificially buffing notching and chffing so that the skilled players can consistently dodge these. kinda like irccm missiles.@@GeneralLee2000
@@GeneralLee2000the 16v16 is already starting to be changed, the matchmaker has an option for smaller games. Either way, reducing the multi path is not a bad thing. I’d rather be able to fight off ground hugging IRCCM spammers than have them be 100% immune to my missiles. Saying “multi path good” and “flying low is a skill” is an incredibly bad take.
@@kennedy.nola_ Nah mate, some people will still be complaining about multipathing instead of pledging to reduce EVEN further the number of players in a match (which Gaijin has already reduced to a min of 6v6 to a max of 12v12).
Basically, as much as they say the opposite, their problem is not with the number of players, but with multipath itself, people just want the fast paced brainrot gameplay the game has at top tier right now. Don't fall for their bullshit
@@rodolfodeoliveira638 You're incorrect. Until gaijin FORCES 6v6 to 12v12, it's still 16v16,
It is not going to ruin top tier, content creators are so fucking dramatic.
It’s going to be a good thing for the game. Everyone has been bitching forever that the ground hug meta is so boring. Well now it’s harder. Top tier will be fine.
Hugging the ground is absolutely zero skill the fact your pushing for matches to stay like this is crazy you keep saying this n that is so difficult bro just adapt wtf 😭 use the mountains as cover go cold DEFEND like Jesus Christ
so much skill to shoot a missile
@@ferrous3262this isn't about shooting missiles tho. This is about defending against these missiles which takes skill and the one shooting the missiles also have to defend thus increasing the overall skill ceiling of the game.
@@slanderking69 even shooting these missiles has some level of skill. A higher and faster missile will not only be better but also have less terrain problems, so this update will greatly help any player who is profecient at bvr and force other players to adapt. High flyers will become the new high priority targets and the winning team will mostly be the team who can use altitude to thier advantage while going offensive and defensive.
True.@@angelnunez6476
@@angelnunez6476 I feel like games will be decided by who can sneak under the enemy, and the most effective players will still be the ones who have fast enough reflexes to really hug the deck.
I personally like the reduced height a lot.
because you lack a father figure
@@Lorenzo-kn9nf I am not a mirror
All these comments thinking this will lead to sophisticated BVR gameplay are out of their mind, it will mean even shorter matches because you CANNOT evade or notch the amount of missiles in the air
stay outside the mar and go cold for 5 seconds, all missiles shot at you are now defeated. its quite literally that simple.
@@desertrecce5676 and when exactly do you know when you will be able to turn back? you get a MSL warning everytime anything is shot in your general direction, which means that ur RWR will be going off for the entire match as the enemy team has 100+ fox 3s
@@desertrecce5676 you can also just... not shoot the missile outside the nez... sure you can shoot first but then it just becomes a game of "I shot him now I turn back and return 20 seconds later." "Oh he shot me now then I turn back and return 20 seconds later and Ill shoot him with a missile" and the entire game will literally become a turn based shoot missile fly away
@@kilian3006 you only get missiles warnings for a fox 3 that’s active on you, so closer than 10 miles. also if you use your rwr to tell you a missile is coming your gonna die. you need to operate under the assumption there’s damn near always a missile in the air for you since it’ll be too late if you wait for rwr warnings
@@mangosuppe8706 that’s literally BVR. go watch a growling sidewinder BVR video and you’ll see
Good. Low altitude IRCCM furballs are what makes top tier not fun. Thats what arcade is for
You say that like anyone plays jet arcade lol
@@fate3071
I accidentaly click battle while having arcade chosen once a year.
@@Agm1995gamer fair enough. I do the same
This. If people don't like fox-3/bvr they can simply go to a lower br where they can't see them. People who want bvr rn have no other option. There's like a thousand aircrafts in the game, idk why it is such a big deal that the gameplay/meta evolves at top tier. Props don't play the same as early jets. Those also don't play the same as mid cold war/3rd gen jets. 4gen should have another type of gameplay.
Guess I just can't play any plane that has less than 100 countermeasures now.
Lee, I am going to respectfully disagree with this argument for the simple fact that this is what modern air combat should look like.
Dogfights are not won by charging head first into the enemy, its a chess match of defensive maneuvers, long range missiles being fired in their proper parameters and understanding your enemies' tactics that will help you win. The current stale gameplay of hugging the ground making missile bus planes like the f15 and su 27 free food for the gripen which has much higher flight performance and will dog on them in the merge(which is basically guaranteed on the live server with current multipathing). You say flying low and not hitting terrain is a skill, I say its a handicap which doesn't teach players proper tactics. Flying lower than 100 meters is easy as hell I can do that in SIM flying with a controller in manual control.
I think this change is great for gameplay, I just hope gaijin follows through with the smaller matches to really make it's significance appreciated by the community.
Ok play dcs then. This is war thunder
I would be fine with a change to multipath height with a preemptive change to maps and player count, but just shoving it in without any changes just ruins gameplay.
Except for 2 problems. 1. Gaijin hasn't made plans to reduce team sizes (the option to gamble if you can get 12v12 is a fucking JOKE as 1. it's not guaranteed, 2. 12v12 is still too large) and 2. Like flying high, getting a tws "lock" and clicking the fire missile button is the hardest thing in the world lmao. Also imagine playing your jets without competitive radar missiles (F-15A, Netz, etc.) Good luck in bvr with your sparrows or even without radar missiles at all. You are FORCED to fly low, especially in the Netz as you only have 60 countermeasures and facing IRCCM every game meaning you NEED a lot of flares. To reiterate, I'm totally fine with the multipath going from 100m to 50m IF ONLY team sizes were actually reduced to 8v8 or even 6v6. Also, apparently the multipath changing from 100 to 50m is for ALL radar missiles, including fox-1's which according to other people is unrealistic anyway, as the non-inverse monopulse sparrows such as the AIM-7E should have WORSE low altitude performance.
Wt has never been “what air combat should look like” 😂
I dont think modern air combat has 16 jets on each side of a 60x60km square.
Thank God's it was reduced. SIM will be playable. No more F-16s with 9ms airfield camping
enjoy F15 MSIPS airfield camping with AMRAAMS 👍
@@jblack1593 Literally just turn 90 degrees and notch it, as any non zero neuron people would do
I think I missed something. Now multipathing affects IR missiles?
@@rodolfodeoliveira638 right off the af? good fucking luck lmao
Firstly I applaud you GL for promoting constructive discussion around the snail tuning this mechanic and it's my personal opinion that multipathing has needed to change for a while, it shouldn't be as simple as fly low and you're safe from radar missiles, now people are going to need to employ actual anti missile manoeuvres and countermeasures. Defeating missiles should take skill, experience and game sense. Now don't get me wrong I don't want this to become DCS but radar missiles becoming useless at low altitude is ridiculous. I believe that gaijin should also give ARH and SARH different multipathing altitudes given that typically ARH missiles are less prone to multipathing due to the nature in which they work and also due to more advanced filters on board to combat multipathing. Each to their own but I'd just like to see all IR and radar missiles overhauled with how they respond to countermeasures. It's quite frustrating having missiles chase flares that are at the opposite of their seeker's gimbal angle instead of the afterburning jet the seeker is looking at and single flare pops spoofing missiles 99% of the time is frustrating too when you've got good launch parameters and aspects. When it comes to air to air in the higher tiers I feel like it's too arcadey at times and would benefit from some reworking and rebalancing and this to me is a step in the right direction.
I'm gonna throw my opinion on this:
1. This can lead to decreasing number of players in matches, so there will be no missile spamming
2. This WILL force players to learn how to dodge this missiles (this will increase lenght of games for example)
Also "hugging the ground" is not skill, its basically a mechanic that gives you invencibility against SARH/ARH, so potentially this will give more options on how to play (flying high gives missile extra range, but what is the purpose if it will always miss and you'll get shot down (especially with a shit ton of markers), right?)
3. This will finally shift meta from IR missiles and they will become AN OPTION, but not a main weapon.
P.S. About range that people wouldn't have time to turn away and defend. This thing is in the game for A LOOOONG time, bc SARH has the same "lethal" range bracket, and most of SARH missiles are fired while you're above 100m and in this "lethal" range
💯 agree
My opinion is simple:
1.I agree with your opinion
2.Since most newbies with premiums plays RB. Gaijin should follow the missiles IRL statistics in SB.
The problem is not 'being able' to do it but rather, doing it in the first place. Top tier can carry atleast 6 ARH/SARH missiles, in a 16v16 that means that there's gonna be A LOT of missile spam. You're gonna have to fly defensively for 90% of the not to get shot down, disregarding the instances where you literally can't evade two or more missiles coming at you from different directions.
@@icantsleepman It will be a problem with less players too IMO. Problem is player/missile count in RB.
i think something that will actually happen is people that will only bring, or bring as many heatseekers as possible and literally just fly away from battle when it starts, only engaging once some time has passed because of the insane missiles flying all over the place, then flank the side or similar and just sideshot everyone with heatseekers
Mad props for covering this and I agree especially on the fact that this isn't full on milsim. I call it a semi-realistic game. It mixes arcade elements with real world mechanics. People love to pick and choose what is and isn't real on here and generally people only want the "real" when it favors them. Let's see aircraft stop consistently pulling 9+ G's and see how much people love their dogfighting in an era which realistically doesn't ever see it happen 99% of the time. Doing something about this for the Sim experience: I completely get that, and I think that is totally ok, it is called sim for a reason. Realistic mixes the arcade and sim elements of the game and simply makes it more accessible and easier to understand (UI spotting, 3rd person, etc.) Even by that argument... the game doesn't tell you multipathing is even a thing let alone how it is the most straightforward way to counter radar missiles. I didn't learn about it until I found out about it via TH-cam :) and a lot of people will continue not to know cuz they simply don't play it like that to care enough to do the research.
Multipathing is that standard hard counter to a missile that would otherwise in most practical situations be impossible to defeat. Just like a flare is for IR missiles, but with the advent of IRCCM missiles... you see how it can now be a lot more difficult, to straight up impossible to avoid such a missile despite using the hard counter to it in the most practical sense of how games play out. It's simply straight up impossible to do on many an occasion despite knowing what you should do to properly flare/counter them. Addressing 16v16 with the current set up for ARB could be one of the simplest solutions.
Without typing a full novel on everything I could say about this subject as this is already long as is: You show some really good examples in this vid about the issues that could arise because of it being nerfed. I get the feeling that a lot of the people complaining about it... would be very upset at how the new game will play out without it. It could very much be who shoots first wins because the receiving end has to spend half an hour being sure they evaded, which can only be certain when the RWR shuts up. I believe it could pan out to be a new type of boring. Worse yet with more advanced Actives coming down the line (Think R-27EA knowing how the ER already is since it's something we can actually visualize with the current game).
Hard Disagree, with the current updates to the dev server with the changes to multi pathing, this has been my favorite place top tier air has been since the F-14 first got added
I think this is a superb change and that it's a good thing that many knife fighter planes like the grippen won't be able to just faceroll their way into the merge. Multipath nerfs may very well lead to players striving to standoff at BVR ranges where BVR tactics like notching are more viable.
“Oh no, now I actually have to learn how to defend and evade missiles. Turn around and reengage.”
This change is a good thing.
could not agree more with you, and those that dont like how fox-3 work, just play lower br.
Get shoot at turn around turn again get shoot at again repeat 6 times
@@linkist6599 then merge, spend all high-off boresight fox-2s, pull the dude into your hud, get third partied. Much better than spending all radar guided missiles and having all of them dive into the ground imo.
@@ephealtun you will merge and get shoot by a fox 3 you couldnt evade
@@linkist6599 Shot*
I don’t see how making skill more important is a bad thing.
I’m sorry but even the most mentally impaired person can manage to not crash into the ground with this being set to a 100 meters, and even 50 meters is honestly extremely easy. As far as I’m concerned they can push it to low enough that it becomes nearly impossible to make use of multipathing in some areas so actually knowing the maps and/or recognizing opportunities to use the map becomes more important for all game modes. (Yes I know some maps would be a bit imbalanced with this but in pretty sure that those who would be trying to pull this off would also largely give up any offensive position they have so it’s a trade off). Rb and sb definitely need smaller teams for this though, not as a chance but as a guaranteed thing when you choose to select that option
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
You don't see how making "more skill" important when fighting missiles that take even less skill to use is a problem?
@@ckingc05what do you propose then force us play trap adventure every time we fire a missile lmao
This doesn't make skill more important, it makes it less important. The only thing that matters in this meta is how many ARHs you have left.
@@ckingc05it’s not about the weapons, it’s about the defense against the weapons. And “flying low” is not a valid defense
👍best cange ever
Now reduce player size and adjust map design and top tier is fun again.
Btw removing multipathing would be even better
The people mass disliking this video are not fully watching and understanding what's being said here. For the CURRENT GAMEMODES this game has, this is not a good idea. Is it more realistic? Sure. Is it a good idea with a lower playercount? probably. But the idea of this in 16v16 is kinda.... eeeeh. It may work, it may not, but actually debating this topic is very much something we should do, simply because of how massively this actually effects the game at these higher tiers and even at lower tiers, as this multipathing will effect earlier radar missiles to a lesser degree.
I think this would be a great change only if it was accompanied by a reduction in team sizes, the current toggle where you have a "chance" of getting a 12v12 game instead of 16v16 is very lacking. I do support the change overall. It's a new skill that people need to learn, the new skill needed is not "how do I dodge 5-6-10 missiles coming at me without multipathing".
I think it's just a new version of what we saw with IRCCM, instead of just popping flares once and forgetting about it, now we need to keep an eye out to not get an R73 shot from our 6 or a 9M from the side. It works the same way with radar misssiles. Now we need to keep in mind the distance between us and the enemy, as well as using terrain to avoid missiles. Because remember, if the terrain is too uneven to abuse multipathing, you can then use it to block line of sight. And if they try to counter that by climbing to have a better view, now you can drag him towards your team.
I'm not sayiong the change is great, specially regarding the state of ARB currently, but it's just foolish to base changes around team sizes when that's the main issue everyone has been complaining about at top tier, and even gaijin has shown they believe it to be a problem with their new toggle, even if they're not ballsy enought to just change the default gamemode.
yeah 12v12 or 8v8 will be amazing
It's a min of 6v6 to a max of 12v12, don't you guys read the damn changelogs?
forget team sizes, give us sarhs from the start and let's battle boi.
@@rodolfodeoliveira638 I said 12v12 because, technically, the current matchmaker is 6v6 to 16v16, so the toggle really only caps the team sizes at 12. The reason you don't see 6v6 at top tier is because of the sheer amount of people playing. And the same thing will happen with the toggle, you will theoretically be able to find 6v6 matches, but realistically you won't. And it still works based on chance, they said that it will depend on how many people have the toggle on, which means that people will first need to know that it exists. And I can assure you 75% op top tier players won't read the notes, they'll probably watch a YT video 3 weeks into the patch and then turn it on.
Being able to fly high and use ARHM as they would be used. This is a great change, even Skyflash and Aim-7M can hit targets at 15-30m. Players will no longer be able to fly low with zero fear of retaliation.
You can also use terrain Gaijin have given you cities/canyons and valleys you can use to hide your signature from TWS and ARHM.
The player base is putting in bug reports for realism, but we dont want realistic missiles?
In my opinion, your analysis is missing a big piece of the puzzle.
You are picturing what this change would do to gameplay in the current meta, and not taking into account what impact it's going to have on the meta itself. This will kill the flare-spamming furball, which is a good thing. It will force engagements to take place at longer distances until people start running out of fox 3s.
Love people forgetting that most 11.0 and above jets have less than 100 flares/chaff. If we say that all jets have on average 6 missiles that would be 6*16 missiles on each team at least. Then we also have the jets with 8-10 missiles each. If we now also need to waste let’s say 5-10 chaff to evade each radar missile then those 64 flares/chaffs on gen 3 jets will very quickly run out. While most jets will only have 2-4 radar missiles that is still 32-64 radar missiles.
you dont need to use chaff at all if theyre firing from outside the mar. just turn cold and thats it.
If that’s your reasoning for this being “unplayable”, the simple solution is to LEARN HOW TO DEFEND AGAINST RADAR MISSILES. Staying outside the MAR, cranking, notching, and turning cold. Tree hugging to a merge is NOT engaging at all.
@kennedy.nola_ Typically, when you defend, you use countermeasures to help you defend. If you want to try to out run the missile, and only that while your team just threw itself in the meat grinder be my guest.
@@kennedy.nola_ Enjoy being the last person left on your team or no enemies being left to engage.
It wasn't particularly hard to stay low though even as someone who doesn't play war thunder very much anymore. This change encourages people to stay at range and actually use these aircraft the way they were meant to be used. It would 100% make the game more slow and passive though. Personally, I like that but whether or not the reduction of multipathing is a good or bad thing will be largely chalked up to personal preference.
It's not bad as you are saying, it's harder to defend missiles by staying low but still doable. At least the meta will change a bit and someone can actually climb without being an easy target for all of you ground hugger.
Plus the skill you are talking about it's just flying low, there are a lot of skills involved in BVRs engagement, I think it's time to learn them.
skill issue just learn how to dodge missiles from ground huggers
@@ferrous3262 I'm not talking about dying because of ground huggers. My point is that if I fire a BVR missile at least it should put my enemy in a defensive aspect.
In the current game you can close the distance between you and your enemy just by staying low and this forces the IRCCM fox2 meta and furballs we all hate.
3:25 in areas with hills that make it difficult, just use the terrain by putting it between you and the radar source. It’s not making the gameplay worse, it’s just making different terrain mean more because you can’t just use the same hug the ground play style on all the maps as you could anymore.
Thanks for talking about this. As someone who likes to play a variety of planes instead of what is stictly meta, ive been worrying about this change a lot with planes like the f16 adf, mig 29, and every other plane with a low amount of countermeasures or poor bvr capability.
One thing i think is really going to suffer from this is any plane trying to stock grind. Not only do you not have no access to bvr missiles, but no access to chaff either.
Warthunder players when they actually have to play the game (They are incapable of gameplay more complicated than flying low and spamming IR missiles until they die)
flying high and spamming radar missiles will be alot more stimulating gameplay huh?
@@nxghtmare83considering it will take more skill and knowledge, yes
@@nxghtmare83yu can’t spam them aircraft have limits now learn to bvr n stop complaining
@@nxghtmare83 yes dcs and irl does the same thing tho wt players are a bit too much at that
@@nxghtmare83 Yes. Flying high and doing bvr tactics efficiently requires far more skill than hugging the deck and shooting fox 2 at unaware targets
I feel the exact opposite about this change, its a very welcome one even in RB, especially since it introduces more skill over braindead low flying. Flying in the general vicinity of the ground should never have been a magic all powerfull missile shield, it allowed players to defeat an entire aspect of top tier air without meaningfully having to change their tactics. The simple reality of BVR Active Radar missiles is that you can't just fly straight towards the enemy team headon and expect to be fine, and Multipathing was the single reason that you could. If people prefer to zerg rush they can do so carefree at lower BRs.
Now you bring up the concern that these shots are harder to defend against and that one may need more countermeasures instead as the main negative aspect about the change, but entirely neglect two alternatives to head on rushing that reliably defeat Fox-3s:
1. Kinematically defeating the missile via manuevering and especially smart positioning. You made a point of showing how difficult it was for that F-16 to escape your 5 kilometre amraam shot, but a shot like that *should* practically be a death sentence for the target. They royally screwed up by carelessly flying that close to 4th gen adversaries and shouldnt have a get out of jail free card thats easy to pull without actively focusing on defending. Another way to look at this is by comparing it to low tier, the refusal to position your plane in a tactically sound way at BVR tier is akin to complaining that people that climb in prop tiers end up in a better position and defeat you.
2. Leading missiles into the ground and generally using hard terrain as cover. That means flying behind a mountain or similar full obstructions to break line of sight, or pitching downwards so that a missile trying to lead you ends up hitting the ground. Both already work very well against Fox-1s
The real problem with this change is the 16v16 team sizes, which cause Furballs and make it hard to actually defend against any one attack or even notice them reliably. One thing the reduction of Multipathing does do is disincentivising flying into a Furball further, since its more difficult not to catch a stray missile. In this way the Multipathing change directly improves top tier in more than one way, it reduces furballs and puts emphasis on flying intelligently, and using other altitudes than perpetually hugging the ground.
I'd be curious about your thoughts, since I am also just personally a fan of BVR missile jousting over confusing furballs, but that sentiment may not be shared by others.
I think is a amzing change for RB. Currently the gameplay is fly low go in to the merch spam flares and shoot IR missile and die. It requires 0 skill and anyone that has a flare key bind and know how to fire a missile can do it. Its extremely boring and 2 dimensional gameplay. That way you will be forced to learn how to notch. Also with the massive buff to chaff notching the ARH missile is super easy so it wouldn't even require that mutch skill. The only way they can fix top tier and make it fun again. is my changing the multi pathing to 25m, making it 8v8 or 6v6 and my adding multiple airfield spawns like in sim. This would make it so that top tier requires skill and the people that are bad at the game can just stay at the lower BR's.
Notching won't work when you have 12 more planes ready to launch missiles at you all the time. It's just gonna be boring af. It doesn't take more skill to turn and spam countermeasures than it does to fly low. Idk what all this coping is, top tier air needs a massive rework, this won't fix anything and will only make it worse.
It requires 0 skill yet the amount of players who achieve 2 kills per battle at top tier is staggeringly low. So which is it?
@@102ndsmirnov7That sounds like a you problem. If you’re under fire by a dozen missiles outside of a one sided late phase match, you (And your team) screwed up.
@@Mobius_117 It's not a me problem, it will be everyone's problem when this update comes out lmao.
@@102ndsmirnov7 Do you have trouble reading? It’s not a problem if you don’t put yourself in position to be fired upon by a dozen missiles in the first place. Bad positioning is most certainly a you problem.
Im certain that if they fix 16v16
It'd make the multipathing change irrelevant because with less people firing stuff at you from the ground, more people would dare to climb and try out bvr combat
While people who prefere close range engagements can hug the ground freely
50m is already a good compromise considering realistic value would be down to 10-20m depending the missile .
Top tier is BVR first of all, if you like dogfight with FOX 2 missiles, then what's the problem with playing on a lower BR?
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485stop spaming the same comment over and over and yes I will have fun obliterating level 15s with this.
People generally don't play at lower brs because of compression
Top tier is the only place where you don't get uptiered.
So I guess that's why some people don't want to get the meta bvr oriented
You should stock grind the Tornado F.3 Late when this new update releases : )
@@therealwildboar1007 unfortunately, this type of people spends 500 dollars per update and GE everything from the start, get wrecked by the ones who don't and then complain for changes to help their lazy ass, tragic.
Gaijin be like: we will add new OP radar missiles and we will make sure you will eat them in every game.
It's not an issue for gameplay, it's an issue for braindead gameplay of flying straight forward without doing anything and dodging everything. Primitive gameplay for idiots was cultivated long enough and this is a perfect moment when you can introduce better modern mechanics. Otherwise all modern stuff will become more and more of ace combat but with "realistic" nerfs that makes little sense. We already have arcade mode and that's where old multipathing should stay.
yea because launching a missile requires alot of brain power
100% this, people dont even understand what BVR means and cry about multipathing being nerfed lmfao that Gen 4 combat baby so get use to it
@@123TheCloop if you understand what bvr means why dont you join the airforce im sure you will get an ace youre first sortie
@@123TheCloopJust go fly Falcon BMS I am sure you would enjoy that more then War Thunder, and no grind!
This would be an ok change if there weren't 16 other planes with missiles to worry about, a missile launch should not always guarantee a kill and going low shouldn't be the only way to defeat it
Seriously, the problem is that we are playing on prop maps with F-15s ect. 16v16 matches. Also, If you are within 4km of the enemy and you know they have fox-3 missiles and then cry about it being "unfair", then it's just simply a skill issue
I went went into a Golan Heights custom mission with the real time information tool, and found that 95% of the trees on that map are 35m-40m tall. That leaves room for about 10m wiggle room for flying at treetop level where you can still be safe, and your tac view of the f16 flying low didn't quite make it there in time.
I do find the change positive as it will make people think more strategically about how they go into fights, and make them use the terrain differently other than just relying on flying 50m ABOVE the trees. They'll have to think about how to duck behind hills and mountains effectively if the terrain is too uneven to fly AT treetop level. However, with the amount of players per game being too many, and with the small maps, it can really be overwhelming with the missile spam and make it near impossible for a player to utilize terrain effectively with the reduced multipathing effect, since there might be too many enemies firing at you from all different directions.
Another problem is spotting. I don't think that if an enemy close to you spots you, that his teammate 20km+ away should be able to see your nametag. This should be limited to about a 10km bubble around you, to prevent an entire swarm of enemies seeing you fighting one person and start lobbing missiles off at you from across the galaxy. This might also encourage more people to use chat for callouts.
Overall, I think Gaijin is trying to make the game "enjoyable" for people that want realism and skill to be involved, while also catering to players that don't have any skill, and bought their way to top tier. You can't have gameplay mechanics that require skill (defeating missiles without multipathing effect, etc), while also having things that require no skill (16v16 missile spam, etc). This mix of game mechanics give birth to players called "sweats" or "tryhards". The no skill path will almost always win and will always be the easiest path used to abuse skilled players, and it isn't limited to noobs. This is why GTA online for example, for those that quit playing following the introduction of the oppressor, explosive ammo, etc, is full of a bunch of brain rot.
Sweaty players will learn to abuse things meant for noobs, to win against players that want a somewhat realistic and authentic experience.
TLDR: I think reduced multipathing is a good thing and allows for a wider skill gap, but those skills cannot be used properly until the player count is ACTUALLY reduced, and/or spread out a lot more over a bigger map with more spawns, like sim battles. And maybe a spotting rework.
3:13 Making it harder to hug the ground to become invincible is *literally the entire fucking point*
I think a way to alleviate the issues 16v16 has is to have multiple runways akin to sim, where you have 4 runways spread across each end of the map and it splits up the team equally across them, stops everyone always fighting in the centre
"skilled enough to stay low without crashing" my brother in christ staying below 100m is not hard AT ALL smh
Ask that to half my teams please.
@@srvaughan2502fr.
Most cannot even manage to takeoff without crashing.
i dont believe that the current multipath threshold is 100m, no way in hell. I remember having to fly at like 20-30 to effectively get the missile to hit the ground.
@@adriancoric1721 bro go check the code, on the miners git repo, it' literally a hard limit at 100m
@@adriancoric1721 you remember wrong
I have do disagree due to the fact that hug the ground and "press w" rush afterburning furball meta is honestly ridiculous that it even has something in common with "realistic" (only in name lmao). But the problem lies in other factors of the gameplay too, such as team sizes and not using the maps like Afghan or large sands of Sinai as a basis for game development.
Also sum scenarios would be greatly appreciated. But yeah im glad they are lowering the multipath altitude
multipathing is really annoying and feels very cheesy, i hope they go through with nerfing it
Personally I get the feeling that reliable methods to survive multipath resistant fox3 spam will be developed.
The current meta with furball irccm spam seemed impossible to survive at first. But the good players figured it out. Hell if anything, putting it like that actually makes the current meta sound harder to survive than this. Time will tell.
“How in the world are you expected to actually compete when fighting 16 people?!?!”
Probably the worst argument there is for this. Top tier gameplay should not reward hugging the deck to negate any enemy missile. Positioning should be EVERYTHING. Giving your missile high PK, while lowering the enemy missile PK. All while positioning yourself to NOT get bounced by 16 people at once. If you’re actually worried about fighting the entire enemy team at once, you’re playing completely wrong.
It’s a shame that people are so caught up in this deck hugging garbage gameplay, they’ve lost any and all ability to realize that you don’t actually HAVE to zerg rush the center of the map on the treetops every game. Start changing your playstyle and watch your K/D skyrocket
right lol. even the guy he killed and uses as an example in the replay is at fault for this, people will re-learn how to position themselves after this and realize thats literally all they needed to do, and with the new Fox 3s that's only been made easier. if Vtol VR can do this and make a fun pvp gameplay loop, so can they lol
@@blessthismessssWith the shitty spotting system and aircraft with 64 flares and chaffs?
So you are basically saying that you should pick your battles. OK.
What do you do when you've got 4 aircraft flying in formation coming after you? How tf will you notch 4 people at once? With only 60 countermeasures?
@@matthewmcclenahan2483 yeah thats another thing, battles are too populated and turn into just furballs. if this werent an issue people would have no real argument against nerfing multipath. set your sights on the gamemode and battles themselves rather than dying on this particular hill
@@matthewmcclenahan2483 teamwork. The same thing they are doing. Stop putting yourself into a position where you have to fight at such an extreme disadvantage. If this happens and you die, learn from your mistakes and move forward. Playing with friends to fly formation with can help too. Not to mention being able to put more than 1 of them defensive by firing multiple Fox 3’s and disengaging as best as possible is something you can do now too
There’s a lot of ways to do it, and I’ve won multiple 1v4’s when played correctly as most people are smoothbrain players. Don’t get locked into a can’t-do mentality. Find ways out of the situation and learn from them moving forward
I agree with your comments in the video, lowering that multi-pathing height for RB is nuts.
The main complaint in Sims is due to the swiss jets hugging the ground, by lowering multi pathing thresholds they can play more "realistic" in SIM.
If gaijin wants to be even more accurate/realistic with top tier they could put a radar aircraft in the game that highlights/feeds the location of every aircraft in a 100+ mile radius to team mates.
I totally agree with the fact that a 16v16 game with reduced multipath will be horrible but you have to understand that this is not a problem with the reduction of multipath itself but rather a problem with the number of players that we have been complaining about for at least a year. For me, the multipath could be reduced to 30 meters to be honest, but in fact the number of players needs to be reduced by half for everything to be comfortable.
Change the number of players and maybe we can talk about reducing multipath height, as it stands though...
It's really not that bad, Im excited for this new gameplay style. Also the first clip where you showed how multipathing failed the F-16 is exactly how it would have gone with the 100m multipathing AoA of the missile combined with the multipath target being essentially where he was flying brought the missile down on top of him, he was screwed regardless
the amount of skill it takes to fly at 100m is negligible
From "hug the ground meta" to "play passive meta"
The limit to the number of TWS missile guidance is BS.
Specifically the F15 can guide more than just 2 missiles in TWS.
Oh yea just what we need rn, a hundred missiles in the air at one time to compound all the other problems 😂
IMHO: timmies will cry. A lot. But fox1 fights will be MUCH more enjoyable. And I'd love any shift from ir spam meta we currently have. Probably I'd play wt more than dcs
I wish I could play dcs and get out of this shithole but I don't have a good pc to play it in a reasonable way : ( sim is good tho.
@@slanderking69 Falcon BMS is just straight up better, and is alot less taxing on your system.
it baffles me that people think it's a good idea to introduce the multipathing nerf in the same update as proliferated ARH. It's as if nothing has been learned from the years of poorly implemented feature/power creep.
I think the change to multipath is a good change for SIM since there isnt as many people and the maps are fairly large. However it is definitely a bad change for air rb. It will only be feasible for air RB if they reduce the amount of players in each lobby. Otherwise it'll be impossible to defend and defeat every missile.
sim at top tier literally has less players than naval they shouldnt dictate the game
@@ferrous3262 Top Tier SB has a lot of players, especially when centrain BR line-ups are around - Saying that it has less players than Naval is blatant non-sense.
@@ferrous3262I don't agree. In the few of my games with the F15A&Su27 i didn't even had the chance to go back to the airfield. I destroyed an f16 then a F15 appeared and vica versa.
I understand BVR, I get the MAR, I am in complete agreement with you. I think a lot of people are thinking "I can get a lot of kills if Multipathing is gone" but not really considering that it effects them too. I think a couple things should happen before we get into BVR meta. 1. Larger maps, at the current map size we pretty much enter the MAR way too soon after take off. 2. Smaller teams, I just don't see most players tracking the distance of 16 enemies successfully. All it takes is one F15 to sneak through (Cause we all know OUR teammates are very good right?) And half your team is murdered. 3. Maybe Jammer aircraft? I'm unsure about that one on how to implement. It could be balanced due to HOJ being a thing, so your jammer cant just loiter the entire match at the back of the map, but I will leave it to Gaijin to figure that out lol. In conclusion, removing multipathing will basically turn into, Get within MAR, Spam all my missiles, and everyone dies, OR whoever has the better side of the map (terrain cover) steam rolls the enemy team.
Either way, it will be very.... Interesting.
Basically if you get limited countermeasures like on the F16, 29, etc you get screwed by either radar missiles or by ir missiles.
Finally skill begins to matter again. Flying low was the biggest cancer in any air battle
I’m sure radar doesn’t take into account the trees in game. So I am fine with an artificial multipathing boost to account for dense trees. If that makes sense.
All valid points... however, I see it this way. If we are going to reduce the effectiveness of ARH missiles and these modern supersonic aircraft with the ability to do BVR to the point that all one has to do to negate all radar advantages of the enemy is to fly below 100m, then the capabilities of IRCCM, thrust vectoring, high G missiles (in combination with HMD) with the ability to predict the target's movements, should also not have been added or should be nerfed. We either have realistic capabilities, or we don't. If we have realistic IR missiles, we should have realistic ARH missiles and radars to counteract the brainless meta of deck hugging until the player reaches the massive furball, gets 2 or 3 IR kills, and then dies to the infinite amount of IR missiles coming at them. IMO, having multipathing reduced to more realistic amounts (not eliminated) is a good change because it gives planes with radar capabilities (and modern jets with ARH missiles) a way to play to their advantage. It also gives some realism, and it counteracts the noob players who know nothing about top tier except fy low, fling IRCCM IR missiles with HMD, and get free kills before dying. If we must have realism with IR, we must have realism all around. Personally, I would much rather have more BVR in which players are required to think about their engagement, defend, etc., before going to the merge, rather than utilizing the multipathing crutch to get to a merge with the enemy team and get more free kills before dying. And it will encourage players to fly high like these modern jets were meant to do. I think those who don't want that kind of gameplay, should go to arcade and there multipathing can be larger.
And to clarify, team sizes need to be reduced for anyone to truly enjoy top-tier air RB, along with an increase in rewards for damage, kills, and ground kills. 16v16 is the real problem. But I am sick to death of deck hugging, IRCCM furballs. Not only will this change weed out the noobs who bought their way to top tier, (and force them to learn how to play), it will balance the IRCCM meta a bit more.
I don’t understand any of your arguments.
4:30 There’s no way for him to counter by flying straight at me very low!
This completely ignores the fact that he already lost the battle by losing situational awareness and putting himself in a low situation low energy position.
Re-adjusting multi pathing move the gameplay loop from just fly low and hope the enemies aren’t playing attention when I shoot an amraam or irccm missile towards something much more compelling: How’s my SA? what’s my energy state? If I turn hot now to engage this one enemy where will that put me and who will be on my flank?
This will make the gameplay reward critical thinking rather than fast twitch ground avoidance
Do you know what else will put you at a low energy state? Constantly going cold,hot,cold,hot, because theres 16 planes with multiple fox 3s ready to launch.
@@WelsyCZ Don't bother. I am betting half the people begging for multipath to go will be the ones complaining when they get 16v16 matches literally 99/100 times.
@@WelsyCZ No because altitude helps you regain speed and gives you a higher starting energy state at the battle
@@angelnunez6476 Altitude also helps missiles keep their speed
Most these people celebrating this change will regret it: if you think "everyone hugging the deck is no skill" then wait until you see the entire 16v16 lobby fire 8 ARH missiles and all turn cold immediately to land and reload. Top tier is about to become a Napoleonic infantry shootout ;)
Play lower BRs if you don’t like the more realistic combat, this is what most of us have wanted
Yes top tier air rb much realism.
@@scharrkyea ofc the Same gamemode where you have genetically super pilots that pull 15g’s, and fight in 2/2 km maps with 32 people in unrealistic flight models. My favourite *realistic* game
As a casual player, I disagree with Lee. I can’t wait to get spammed with Fox-3s.
So true...
Oh here we go crying again... if modern fox 3 are to much for you, just play lower br and that is it, multipath is absurd, you could add Meteor missile right now and only by flying low could be dodged??? ridiculous, there are many ways to survive fox 3, flying low should NOT be an option.
I mean there is really not many ways of surviving in real life anymore. Notch and pray.
Homeboy wants to spam his fox 3 lmao
@@jcdenton9569 yeah, what do you want Fox3 for then? That Is the whole point of it
Then the community asking for stuff like Eurofighter or F-35 but at the same time complain about "MisSiLeS aRe to Op"
@@agustinf1372 me fire fox 3, me want kill Ooga booga
The F14 is oppressively overpowered when you are a full BR below it.
Regularly see 6-9 teammates dead to BVR before we even have radar contacts.
11.0-11.3 is awful because of these jets.
Don't blindly go into the missile. The number one reason why you even get a missile in your face 2 miles or less away is because you made the mistake of going into that position. You're liable for your own mistakes. Don't take it out on the mechanics because you lack the ability to pay attention to your surroundings.
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485I have a video up on reddit showing how easy a F5F Bot kinetically defends an RB 99 from my Gripn on the Dev Server. Multipathing change and Fox 3's are not the death star you make it out to be even in a 16v16!
@@D4nger_CLO5E They are in 16v16.
One simple solution to all the problems u mentioned: go cold at 20-30 km. Defeats all missles with 0 chaff/flare (maybe except the phoenix and when u recommit after 30-60 secs it cant follow your turn anymore so you can defeat it too). Just be aware of your surroundings
this ain’t destroying top tier, it’s making it more BVR oriented, which is what these current top top tier fighters are built for and supposed to do, it also makes it harder for the goober la that fly in a damn straight line into the battle
Imagine how fun spading new vehicles will be; I'm so excited.
I'm pressing X
I feel like everyone explaining different ways you can dodge radar missiles didnt even watch the video and missed the point. Personally i wouldn't mind the MP change if the game allowed it to be balanced, but in the current state of the game it wont be. First of all, the player count especially on smaller maps makes dodging radar missiles without MP nearly impossible. Imagine city or the small Afghanistan map, where within a minute of the game starting, both teams are already within 10km of each other with 16 players each. Second of all this is gonna be so awful for planes with lower countermeasure amounts, people will need to bring chaff once again, but only having 30 of each will most definitely not be enough with the playercount. Not to mention irccm missiles still being around, without running something like flare reinforced will make flaring those all the more difficult. Third, BR compression will be so awful, especially with stock planes. Im just imagining trying to upgrade my stock mig29 with like 2 basic IR missiles and standard flares, going against fox3 missiles. I mean thats genuinely near uncounterable on certain maps. I would also argue that the awful spotting range will contribute to this not being a good change. Despite the name air rb isnt meant to be super realistic in its current state, you can literally fly your plane with your mouse for godsake. I dont care if they did this in simulator, but i really hope they dont do this in RB.
The change to multipathing isn’t a problem at all, the entire environment of top tier arb is the problem. 16 players starting at the exact same spot on either side and meeting in a huge fur ball in the middle is the problem. We’ve got some really big maps, but even on these, you always see the same pattern. Lowering the max height for multipathing to take effect only makes the radar missiles a viable load out option.
If anything, you should be more complaining about the arb game mode. Make it more similar to asb and we will already see an improvement.
I already have complained about the environment numerous times, even in this video I mention 16v16...
@@GeneralLee2000 That's why I said "more", it wasn't my intention to imply, that you don't complain about these issues.
My point is, that you described a problem, that isn't caused by lowering the max height for multipathing. Shifting the discussion towards if this change is good or bad, will at best result in gaijin not changing anything.
I want arb to explode and result into a massive problem for gaijin, so they finally do something of value.
War Thunder is a massive asset pool, that gaijin is currently not able to really utilize, because they simply can't come up with good game modes.
I think this is actually a good change since it dinally enables less manouverable planes with more ordinance to bcome somewhat relevant. At the moment you just jump in your Gripen, hug the ground and just preflare every IR missile whilst winning basically every dogfight... whatever happens through this change it'll be better than what we currently have
I think it’ll encourage actually using your brain to play arb and hopefully force gaijin to lower how many people are in a match. We asked for a change and now we are finally getting something, thanks gaijin 😅
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485are you a bot? Just spamming this same shit in every reply thread.
@@ICECAPPEDSKY saying it to who needs to hear it!
@@jpc6485 I did it before I’ll do it now, I know how to dodge missiles haha
it's a massive problem for lower tier aircraft with only semi actives that have to fight aircraft with fox 3s. it will make stock aircraft without a competitive loadout with go from almost unplayable to entirely unplayable.
as in, people will literally not be able to progress. it will pigeonhole gaijin into being forced to fix the matchmaking and stock missile choices. gaijin accelerationism, get onboard.
This is actually way more realistic now, also notching the modern Fox-3's should be very very hard. This creates more interesting gameplay options in general since you can't just fly low and straight and Fox-2 every living fuck. You now have to actually tactically play. So yes, GOOD.
BUT, and a BIG BUT, Air RB needs to change, there needs to be more objectives, more airfields, bigger maps, more then one respawn, less players etc.
Have fun doing this in 16v16!
@@jpc6485 Read my full comment please before you respond
@@jpc6485 Read my full comment before you respond please
@@jpc6485have fun dying everytime you try to bomb in brain dead mode
What more interesting gameplay? It will be decided by who has the better missile and if I want to sling missiles and defend I would simply go play DCS. In war thunder at least there is 1 in 10 game where you get to merge with people.