People seem to forget that in a world where labels are so important, its okay to just be "alternative." You don't have to be goth to wear dark clothes or like spooky things!
I always find it funny when ppl say that the concept of goth as a music-based subculture is “elitist”, as if listening to music wasn’t the easiest and most low-cost part of it all😂
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And online forums are full of recomendations! We're not keeping any gates, the gates are wide open, and we're literally begging you to come through it
A lot of people think gate-keeping is saying that a place has a fence, you might show them the entrance but they will still be upset that the place isn't whatever they want it to be. I think it mostly comes from people giving the label "goth" waaay too much importance, like saying that they aren't goth is a insult
@@anabea3199 They see it as an attack on their self identity. The problem is they often have a romanticised view of what they think goth is. Then they see what goth really is and can't take it. And then the forcing things they like into goth so it fits with their flawed view starts.
Right??? As a goth on a budget the music is the easiest and best part for me. I'm currently doing my best with thrifting and DIY, and my makeup, but I don't always look the most goth. I'm slowly working on changing that but I have a strict budget. Sometimes I have to remind myself that goth is a music based sub-culture and I'm still goth because I love the music even when I don't look like the most goth that ever gothed.
Exactly, I mean it's literally inclusive with that itself. You don't need expensive clothes or anything. If you like the music you're a Goth. It's so weird how everything has been misconstrued these days. I mean we swung the gate open and handed y'all the keys.
I feel like TikTok is more “let’s act goth because it’s cool now, but I’m not actually goth.” I remember back in the day when goths and nerds were picked on.. now they’re trending. 🙄
@@jackieskellington227 I agree. I may be new generation but the goth subculture (and alternative) has always been a home to me. Even before Tik Tok became a thing alternative or even slightly different people got picked on, bullied. Especially for our music taste. It’s so sad not much has changed and people now think it’s about having (aka forcing) the same lame ideology on ‘what they think goth is’. Personally in my opinion I think it just ruins a lot Of things for those who actually appreciate goth for what it us
What they call bullying is just people pointing out facts or disagreeing with them. They're not getting bullied. They just can't stand people having a different opinion than them. That's how kids are nowadays. It's sad but true.
And that's really the truth of it. I remember being a baby bat myself and What it felt like when someone would correct me or teach me something. It felt like they were condescending me or insulting me or calling me a poseur. It didn't matter how well-meaning it was and even though unless it was really over the top insulting, I kept my mouth shut And happily accepted the correction - my insecure baby bat self did feel For lack of a better way to put it, bullied. So, I get where they're coming from but at the same time they really need to learn what real gatekeeping is. If someone's gatekeeping you, they give you nothing. In fact they give you the opposite of nothing, they mock you and send you the wrong way. If someone is educating you, that's handing you the keys.
So this is the person responsible for all the "goth is politics, goth is literature, music isn't the core" comments I started seeing under goth posts on Pinterest. Trying to correct them all is too much work, guess I'm just gonna move over to TH-cam or Reddit for the time being
Using age as an insult is so incredibly f*cking stupid... as if age dictates whether or not you are still allowed to be you... I've (32) had a really good friend (62) who went to renfaires in full getup, listened to metal and dressed the way she felt until her sadly too early demise. She enjoyed life and never let age be a thing at all.
Unfortunately ageism is something that's very common over on TikTok. A lot of the cloud chasers on there use it as a tool to silence people That will openly disagree with them or try and correct them because they know they're wrong. But when they're spreading this ageism, it creates all these other prejudices like the ones that you mentioned. Like we're not allowed to express ourselves or still have the same hobbies and interests.
Saying that Goth has nothing to do with the music is like saying the same about heavy metal! Iron and steel have been around for CENTURIES, but heavy metal has NOTHING TO DO WITH "heavy metal", like iron, steel etc. Its about THE MUSIC! Just like Goth. I grew up around the beginning of Goth music. Bands like The Damned, Depeche Mode and The Cure were just starting out! And many of us OG Goths started out as fans of punk bands, like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Sex Pistols etc. Goth culture is HEAVILY INFLUENCED by the music. And those who claim it isn't are the ones trying to "gatekeep"!
Yes yes and yes! I could not agree with you more! And that's the absolute irony of the whole thing. The ones that are claiming that the actual Goths trying to maintain the integrity of the subculture are gatekeeping are in fact the actual gatekeepers because what they're doing is they are spreading the misinformation that gate keeps baby bats from finding the subculture in the first place by creating all of these barriers of mass quantities of content.
I still get called goth dad 😁 even though I don't look goth.... My eldest girl is 18 soon and she's really carrying on the goth torch, music, goth clothes etc etc... I'm proud of her. And she's loving your videos 🖤
I’ve had conversations w/ friends about people who think they’re part of the community like the young woman who went off on you in dms. They’re not really goth to begin with….they want nothing to do with community, don’t go to shows or really listen to music. They’ve made up their mind on what goth is about and won’t be told otherwise…the minute you try to have legit or honest conversation you get called “gatekeeper” bc they’ve got nothing else.
EXACTLY! I've had unfortunately ran into people like that on Facebook. One had the nerve to throw my Cancun trip into my face. Saying you're goth? Why are you going to Cancun. Uh, because I like the beach? I told her that's rich coming from someone who's never stepped foot in a Goth club and has never met a real goth in her life. She blocked me. Normies pretending to know how us Goths lives is hilarious. And pathetic.
Exactly, and that's really the crux of the issue. They have no part of the subculture but like to dress the part and use the label. When you try to have a conversation with them, they're immediately on the defensive because they know they're wrong but they use the term gatekeeper and elitist to shut the conversation down. You can't disagree with me because now you've made me a victim. Then, younger goths that don't know any better see this and think that we're actually the ones that are doing the bullying.
@angelabenedict It's a major issue. Normies coming into our spaces claiming one thing. While we goths correct them, they scream bulling and etc. They can dish it, but can't take it. It's very confusing for baby bats.
The comment about how punk is a political based subculture first with a music scene second makes me so angry! I discovered gothic rock through post punk, which i discovered through punk. Punk is not just a political subculture with a music scene! It is a music scene first and foremost with very innate ties to politics! Someone who has "punk politics" but doesn't listen to the music isn't a punk, but a progressive/leftist/etc... Both music and politics are important to being a punk, but music comes first. That claim also doesn't make sense because there are SO MANY WAYS to be political if you're a punk. Punks can fit into a VARIETY of progressive/left leaning ideologies!
i initially believed the bashful comments calling non-liberals racist, saying that punk has inherently always been pro-lgbtq, and conservatives are the scum of the earth & should go to hell, were all supposed to be ironic shitposts... it was highly optimistic of me to assume that to say the least
The problem with why this person has so many conflicting and misinformed ideas is because they don't actually believe in them themselves. This is a person who desperately wants to fit a niche but also wants popularity so in order to do that you need to do a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and pander to a group that doesn't know any better (aka kids) or anyone who's ever felt in any way dejected in order to not only schmooze their way into a subculture they have no part of but also gain a following and attention which is what they want.
Not to mention, there are also literal Nazi punks, like.... even if it were a political based subculture.... there's no political coherence, because punks do exist on the whole spectrum of political identities. Now, the left leaning punks are gonna try to run off the Nazi punks and good fucking riddance to 'em, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, too. The closest coherence to "punk" is the style of music. The messages can vary wildly. There's nothing else that connects them but the genre of music they are a part of. This person doesn't even know Nazi punks exist, I bet they think if they see a punk, they're gonna be a leftist. F---- moron. Gonna get themselves in trouble when they run across some asshole punk who's not a leftist. LOLOLOLOL.
Even in teen/YA books from the 2000s made sure to stipulate that the characters who were goths went to goth shows, and listened to gothic music lmao. (Nadine from Girls in Love immediately comes to mind)
sorry, no idea why I put this shoe on (I actually don't, but hey...) this is exactly the very bully take but you can't see it... it is what bullies do, taunt those who they don't deem to be one of them... but maybe that is too difficult to understand for you. You might think about your take a little bit... if you are old enough to understand, that is. edit: you could also say "get a life"... when one must ask, what kind of "life" the person means, usually it is a mean phrase to insult a person. Very childish if you ask me...
Wow its crazy how unaware people are to their own stupidity, the fact they were so desperate for being right that they started accusing you of misgendering is such and incredibly awful low blow.
They're known for it. I've had many people in my inbox that have had run-ins with them, and they were all accused of varying things from being racist to far right and transphobic.
I wouldn't consider myself a baby bat but at 23, it's my mission in life to bring new people to the goth subculture. It's my home, my safe place, and it's who I am to my core. I don't gatekeep ANYTHING and I'm more than willing to share everything from the music to how I dress to how I do my makeup. There's always room for baby bats and I do my very best to light the torch.
That's really the majority of what you will see. Elders helping baby bats. And I'm going to be 100% honest, when I've seen people who were older doling out abuse - they turned out to not be goths at all. They were alternative or darkly inclined but not Goths. And it makes sense because they don't have the same stake in it that we do. They have nothing to lose because they're not actually part of it So they'll happily and openly for the sake of their own ego bully kids in black.
As a 30-yearold autistic goth; Exactly this! All we can do is teach them that goth is about the music, and suggest some bands. For the rest, it's really their goth journey in the end. Also, some baby bats frankly get too much flak if they start out with the fashion and the music comes a few years later; lord knows I started out that way at age 13. But I grew intro a proper goth as early as 2 years after I started dressing the part; I think bands like Skinny Puppy at the time came around the time I was either 14 or 15 years old. We just have to give the baby bats a gentle nudge in the right direction, and give them some time. The ones that'll stay in the subculture will eventually come around to the music.
Oh yes, the generations that can't handle the critique so they pull the "law" card. They would like to comment on everything, but they don't want to hear the comment back. Its childish, narcissistic and totally ego-driven without even realising its tarnishes the entire subculture. Kudos for you Angela for having such nerves of steel. Many of those young kids will drop the subculture, the first moment they will be confronted (for work, for college, for a person). ps also sad to say, but TT is definitely a toxic space i couldn't contribute to. I only see people arguing and pushing the algorithm that way. only conflicts bringing attention.
I've been called goth because of the way I dress and the only times I have been "correctly" identified as emo has been when people say it jokingly because they notice my scars, I am emo full on, but .... being identified as emo because of a really unhealthy stereotype is not it for me
@@kasthehuman oh that's for sure because of how people stigmatize mental disorders and less about the music. people are very ignorant and discriminatory about mental disorders like depression. sometimes it feels like we've made such little progress in that area as a society (in the usa) but then I remember I am thankful I wasn't alive when it would have been legal for my husband to ship me off to an insane asylum.
You know that this person has no substance to stand when you tell them to show you the receipts but continues to throw garbage at you with no proof. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and the real homies know you and your character! You’re amazing❤
Literally no receipts. They kept saying that during our conversation I refer to them as 'he' - firstly, I don't know their gender but fortunately My default of 'they/them' pronouns with literally everybody has never failed me and two - The way they claimed that I misgendered them is literally impossible using basic human speech.
I mean, they could have at least tried scroll through the comments in the previous video to find the evidence that they were misg- oh wait, they couldn't, because they got the video taken down!
@@DylanDahmer I had MANY people in my DM's telling me about how to bullied and attacked them and when they defended themselves - you tried to brand them, right wingers, racists or transphobic and then threatened to doxx them. Explains why you have an active and paid for 'been verified' account.
I mean, look at the comments from the person in my DMs. Aegist comment after ageist comment this is literally something that is illegal and has gotten people sued but it's so commonplace that they felt completely comfortable doing it. Like it rolled off the tongue so naturally.
Time is telling, time is patient, and hopefully when that day comes when they emotionally mature, they'll finally realize that we all age- some with grace and some without.
I remember also babybats being the gatekeepers from when I was a teen and babybat myself! I guess it is partially physiological not trying to be patronizing but a lot of enthusiasm mixed with huge teen emotions and "all or nothing mentality" will do that to a person. On the other hand 99% of elder goths were and are rather chill and open to talk all things music 😅
I wonder can those who are only interested in the fashion part of goth and not the music call themselves goth or should they call themselves something else to respect that goth is a music based subculture?
Agreed, Alternative would probably be more fitting since they just like the style. That and Alternative encompasses various things under the umbrella style wise.
Wow, Imagine being so ableist to assume that deaf people can't enjoy music. What do you think the sign language interpreters at large concerts are there for? Goth is music based, babe.
@@satanic_sammi You know exactly what you said. You're ableist against the deaf community for assuming that they can't enjoy goth music. Please, educate yourself.
TikTok is a freaking cesspool. The music is a central part of the subculture. I still don’t call myself goth because even if I listen to the music, I haven’t gone to any clubs or shows.
Much of it really is but you do have some genuine people out there trying. The younger generations just do better with short form media like what they produce on TikTok which is why a lot of them are there but unfortunately this is also why a lot of them have been fed false information, misled and now idolize not so great people with not so great intentions because they just don't know any better. The only thing we can do is try to help them when we see it and hope for the best.
Wow. That goes too far , that’s why I try to stay as far away from TikTok as I can. When I start to share my pov, it makes views but it’s also super triggering. Thank you for resuming everything in this video. 🖤
that person “Skum” has been all over my fyp and all they do is talk and talk and talk. They aren’t even goth and think it’s their place to talk about it??
It breeds and impatient person. Because the short form content meant that they only had a certain amount of time to get as many words and as possible, they also had to speed it up if they had something to say So not only are they used to things shorter but they're used to it faster so they listen to people like us and we must sound drunk. 🤣
Hi Angela, I’m glad I stumbled upon this video. I’ve had experience with this sort of bullying in the past and felt like I didn’t look “goth” enough. It happened in person when I was still in high school. All of the discourse online made me feel this way too. It eventually turned me off from the subculture in general and I eventually stopped trying to look the part but always remained goth at heart, considering I love the music and the literature. Nowadays, I dress the complete opposite of goth and lean more towards “cottagecore” styles despite still listening to the gothic genre of music. This video further proved to me that it’s okay to not look the part as long as you listen to the music, but I also think it’s my sign to re-add the gothic style into my catalogue of many styles, haha. This time, I’ll dress in the mindset that I am goth despite what anyone else says, as it’s a huge part of me. :) Looking forward to your future videos, thank you for this sign. 🩷
I couldn't handle the tiktok side of the subculture. Wasn't great for my mental health at all. I found myself looped right back into depression because it made me feel like an old piece of shit at only 32. Hilarious that they called me a poser when I've been involved in the Austin scene for 15+ years and even helped a good friend promote their gig as a DJ at Elysium multiple times. but yeah, I'm a poser according to some zoomer in Siouxsie Sioux makeup who listens to deftones. Funny how they wanna be experts on the subculture but we never see them actually active in the community. Inb4 "Babybats have to be 21+ to go to shows." Nah, these tiktokers who tried to gatekeep me are over 21 and could participate in the scene but choose not to.
See, i get more annoyed when someone thinks its not about the music because, half the rime, if not most of the time im not dressed in gothic fashion, I'm walking my dog in mud or working or chilling out at home. I can't be bothered to dress up all the time, I'll save that for special days or when im going out properly, not for everyday. But when people say its fashion first, music not required, it makes me feel super isolated from saying hey i like goth because 'i dont look the part' and im constantly feeling like i have to defend that i genuinely do enjoy the subculture. If you want to dress up everyday, thats fine, but i cant. What i actually can do everyday is listen to goth music. I love it, so i naturally fell into this side of youtube because my interests and the youtubers i watched crossed over. Ive jokingly referred to myself as a 'sleeper goth' because most people won't know thats what I'm into until they talk to me, but within a minute of coversation they figure it out pretty quick because of the music i listen to 😂😂😂
I'm disabled, so I can't dress the part all the time. I'm an elder. Don't let them tell you, your not Goth because you chose to wear a comfortable pink dress on Tuesday. You listen to the music, that's all that matters.
it’s amazing because you’re the first goth TH-camr i actually watched back in like 2018 when i finally decided to embrace my inner goth….you’re the reason i find myself regularly explaining the music to people who ask me why im so different. it’s not about the look, it’s about the music! the community! Thanks for all the years of teaching me, Angela 🖤🖤🖤
That makes me so happy to hear! I'm glad that you're able to express yourself the way that you want to. Many people don't get the chance because they can't find the community and feel like the only Goth in the village. Once you find the music, everything changes. 🖤
I’m half baby bat and half not (long story) but what’s kept me from diving in whole heartedly up until recently is the toxicity and horrible infighting. I won’t be on tik tok because of it. Finding people like you has helped me
Thanks for the video Angela, I'm sorry that your last video got taken down, honestly based on those comments and DMs you can tell that this is a very sad, loathsome individual. Let us be reminded that if someone corrects us on a fact it does not make them a gatekeeper. Thanks for speaking up in defense of babybats, we really appreciate you 🖤🖤🦇
You always make my day, with your content. I absolutely feel the love and concern you have for baby bats, being that I've only been involved with the community for around three years now and I've been lucky enough to have found the right kind of friends and haven't experienced any bullying, but I am old enough to remember when even without the internet people had to really be careful. The rumors alone were frightening of bullying by elitist and in no way could I think or should anyone think that you are an elitist or gatekeeper. They're in no way as caring and informative as you are and that's so appreciated. So the fact the you are doing your due diligence is so inspiring. Thanks 🖤🥀🖤🥀🖤
Thank you so much! There's a lot of validity to what you're saying because much of these fears and angst toward elder goths, gatekeeping and elitism etc comes from fear mongering and the fear-mongering was said into place by clout chasers using goth as a hashtag so they can gain more popularity.
you said what needed to be said. these cry bully's & snowflakes I swear. it's never over the top gate keeping to understand that Goth is a music subculture first & for most. the looks or certain niche Ideologies are 2nd to the Music. good video as always Angela. 😎
Thank you so much, glad you enjoyed it! It's weird to me when people attach themselves to something entirely unassociated with the subject at hand and an attempt to win something that's not meant to be won in the first place.
To be honest, that person is acting like a troll, if it isn't, looks like affected by some antisocial behaviour (I'm not a psychologist myself but I worked in communities for years). In fact, that discussion ended in laughing and refusing to answer the questions. People with psychological issues tend to have immature behaviours. As a romantic, I don't even mind to politics, especially because I hate both left and right wing. I prefer to concentrate myself in learning how the people mind and soul works and try to help them with all of my effort, and trying to improve my ability to understand the others. Gothic architecture and Bauhaus art always liked me. I don't know if it's related with Goth culture but I say that I like styles that are a mixture of art and logical structure, and both the arts that I mentioned earlier represent it. I think that Goth is also a box that can contain sadness and poetry, so it's not related with strictly Goth music but with all the music that can influence our sentiments. For instance, I liked sad songs even they were pop, metal or any other genre out of Gothic. The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel can be a Goth song, in my humble opinion. Goth as no a real reference. As far as I know, this term was used by music reviewers to refer to the sad and poetic songs, and it was used on Joy Division and The Doors also, that aren't Goth as we know it nowadays. Maybe I've written something that I already said in earlier comments, I say sorry for that.
Honestly, I gave up on Tiktok because anyone I've tried to debate with on whatever subject was so defensive to the point of being rude assholes. I see a lot of people who seem to think if you don't conform to what they think you are the one that is immature, as though conformity is maturity. I think not. Either way I got tired of them and deleted the app. I'll stick with TH-cam and Instagram. I've been with TH-cam since it's beginning. Totally different atmosphere.
FIRST THING TO SAY!! You my dear are doing an amazing job with your videos. The information you share about our subculture is always on point . SECOND THING TO SAY !! I agree 💯 with you , how is it possible for us elders to bully baby bats?!? 🦇 NOT POSSIBLE!!! They are the ones who will keep our subculture ALIVE AND GOING. I personally as an elder get very happy, when I go out to a Goth event,concert or club and see all the baby bats . THRID THING TO SAY!! IT IS A MUSIC SUBCULTURE!! 🎶🎶🖤
I’d often see this person pop up on my FYP and while I originally didn’t have issues with them, I never knew they were this kind of person. Also labeling someone as a TERF just based off vibes because they don’t like you is some nasty behavior; especially over the topic of ageism.
Yeah, they're kind of a fail human that tries to make a name for themselves off of trying to shame and cancel other people. Since they have legit zero logic behind it, they rely on rapid fire meth style delivery so people don't realize that they don't know wtf they're talking about.
Very well said as always, keep doing your good work Angela! There are many reasons why some people, especially younger ones really want to deny everything about actual goth, even if we provide them keys to get inside the subculture. Definitely one reason is that some of them are just young and going through a mental phase, it's chaotic for sure where logic really doesn't exist (excluding those who genuinely want to learn real stuff). There's also this: some people deny everything on purpose no matter what, to troll and make other people angry. To make them react to their stuff so they get the easy and quick visibility - people's anger has become one of the most effective shortcuts just to get them easily engaged. They really feed on that anger, and the sneakiest content creators know this. This is the reason why most of the time I personally just ignore the most stupid and absurd looking bullshit algorithms try to feed me in social media. But all that being said, babybats still need the proper guidance when really needed, that's for sure.
So well said! People know how to panda and how to trigger which rather than contribute to something positive, I simply want popularity and monetary benefits. It's funny when I see these people throughout the term gatekeeper when someone comes into correct them because when they're out there deliberately spreading misinformation they're actually gatekeeping baby bats from discovering the actual subculture.
Anyone that tries to say goth isn't a music based subculture is delusional and extremely misinformed. If I don't have my makeup done to run to the store, if I don't have my fancy clothes on because I'm tired BUT I'm still listening to and loving the music then I'm still goth. I just shake my head at people that say it's just a fashion/aesthetic thing. No, it's a music based subculture. If you're just in it for the fashion then you're just someone that likes to dress alternatively. That in itself that's fine, just don't call yourself goth. I'd like to take these folks and put them in a goth club and see how they'd react. 😂 It just hurts when we get called gatekeepers or elitists just because we know that it truly is a music based subculture and try to educate these misinformed people on that fact. I've been in the subculture for 33 years, kiddos. I know what is goth and what isn't. 😂😂😂
Keep the good vibe remembering baby-bats about the subculture like that Angela. Someone needs to do it and you really have the cool approach for it and the knowledge. Always keeping following you here on TH-cam since a long time and for much longer I hope. Take care Xxxx
I fully agree with you :/ I love the music but I don’t dress “trad” or any of the labeled styles of anything I have more of a grunge style (even tho I hate labeling the clothes I wear) I get bullied on insta & more bc I absolutely am part of the goth sub, but I don’t dress like it. Ik yoy don’t have too but I’ve had people identify as “trad goth” tell me I’m not good enough bc I don’t even look goth. It’s crazy anymore!! Where’d all this nonsense come from?
My foot in the door was The Crow, and music is all over the comic and movie. I like Johnny Cash, I like EA Poe, I like Joy Division, I like Neil Gaiman. I can't go to my job in makeup and leather. It's friggin' hot in Texas! Tiktok is made for hot takes by design. Not for me.
music is extremely important to almost any subculture, if you go to a goth night you’ll notice people aren’t just standing around being all political and preaching their ideology, they’re dancing and singing and swaying and having fun! music connects us, music is the common ground. our self-expression is different, person to person, but the music makes us understand eachother on a basic level. it’s so important. way more important than how you look.
It's a social event! It's how goths interact with the community and just let loose. They listen to their favorite music, get to where their favorite clothes and dance!
I feel that if anything it's mostly baby bat on baby bat elithism. when I was a kid and I tried approaching the alt kids they were super aggressive to me. so much so that now I still have a strong discomfort even just being asked what music I listen to because that back then was not just a judgment of your taste but also of your character as a person. I'm so confused to hear all these elder goths who are my age saying that goth was never like this and that it's new. because all these things described I have experienced in highschool in the 90/2000s. being called a poser as soon as one slightly changes style. music basically "stealing fashion" because you were not allowed to wear a specific alt fashion if you did not give proof that a specific genre of music was your entire life and personality and you despised all other kinds. what kind of heaven of nice alt people have you guys been hanging around in XD? was it that there were no elder goths in our vicinity? was it like a kindergarthen with no teacher? honestly I still have anxiety over all this lol
As you know I don't watch or have any other social medias so I can't really comment on what's going on with them. However I will say I agree with you. Most people just want the label of Goth, Gothic, Darkly Inclined, Alternative... or whatever sub-genre of fashion they like because over the years it has become cooler I guess. I bet you they wouldn't have the same feelings coming up back in the day the way the older people has in the scene.
I think it's strange that people still do that and try change goth to something else. And I am happy I was teenager and young adult during 80s, when I discovered goth. But it is sad that even some try "take away the music bit" from it. Of course no one need to just listen to goth. Fully agree that! Not even Musicians do that. And I saw on Instagram comments about Black Friday's Goth project she is working on. Some wondered why she didn't show gothic metal and doom metal in the clip. Of course I commented that, mybe cause it's not goth and that it is from metal music. No, we shouldn't bully each others. And somehow I am happy I don't have TikTok. Stay safe gorgeous Angela 🦇🖤🖤🖤🖤🦇
I reaally don't understand why is so hard to use alternative instead of goth. If you dont like goth music you're NOT goth and its OKAY, theres nothing wrong on liking the clothing style and not listening to the music. I myself am more of a metal and aggrotech person so I dont go out calling myself goth just because of the cloathes
Because the term goth and the mystique that surrounds the subculture has an allure to it that people gravitate towards. The other alternative subcultures for whatever reason are seen as a bit cheesy in the eyes of trendseekers and normies. But they associate goth with darkness, horror, Elvira, Morticia, fetishes - all things sexy and unique.
I don't know who is saying that they are older Goths and are bullying the baby bats online, but I do know who's bullying them in real. At least where I live. It's the popular kids who just a few years ago made fun of Goth. They are the ones denying the music, and are still bullying Goths their age. Truth be told, you can pick them out from actual Goths. They wear black, mostly name designer and name brand stuff, yoga pants and sweat shirts, hip hop style jewelry, normal black eyeliner ECT. No dyi, no second hand items, nothing too radical, nothing to make them ridiculed at all. They are the ones following the same tic tokers you are having trouble with, who never, never ever, go out in public like you see them online.. Meanwhile, kids who do listen to the music know the difference. They dress much more like we do, they sometimes prefer newer Goth music to old, but not always. They are the ones visiting cemeteries and reading Poe and are pretty much us just born a different year than we are.
It isn't gatekeeping when we are handing people the keys. Not our fault if they choose not to use them or don't like what they find inside. But we will gatekeep the hell out of people who align themselves with those who seek to harm us and the people we support. Dressing weird and listening to weird music is a political statement in itself when the powers that be want to hammer down anyone different. Over in r/goth on reddit we get a lot of gatekeeper and elitist accusations because we make it a space focused on goth genre music and everything stems from that. Goth music is a vital component and we don't hold the patent on all dark things. We also use template answers for common questions to make things easier for everyone including links to our musicbox, FAQ and subreddit wiki. The answers are all there, it's just a shortcut to find them instead of repeating ourselves endlessly. Not everyone will agree with the r/goth approach but it is that way for very good reasons. But people don't like to read anymore and it seems people have forgotten how to search the internet. We get a lot of people asking to do their homework for them. A great example talked about in the latest Cemetery Confessions ep was a venn diagram with goth music and things goths like and how they mix in the middle.
Exactly. Yeah, we gatekeep. But will willingly hand over the keys and tell them about our subculture. They are the ones who gets mad at what they see and want to rearrange our space to fit their bullshit narcissistic narrative.
That person insulting you about your age on your screenshots is clearly jealous and envious of you because you look like a 20 year old. You look so young and have such beautiful skin that it makes 20 and 30 year olds that you look better than jealous of you.
Do you consider post-punk, proto-goth musicians/bands to also be goth rock? I would consider Bauhaus this, you mentioned them. But what about: Joy Division, Depeche Mode (2nd album onwards plateauing at Black Celebration & on), Wire (their 2nd & 3rd albums), The Sound, Chameleons, Cocteau Twins (esp their first album), Killing Joke, Echo & the Bunnymen (1st 4 albums), & the Doors from the 60’s. Most of these seem to be neglected by people who claim the goth subculture. Even though all these bands seriously influenced goth rock. Though I do notice those same people seem to retro-actively claim Bauhaus (which you mentioned), Joy Division (which I mentioned), the Cure, and Siouxsie & the Banshees.
Some of these bands influenced gothic rock over time (like the doors) but some are more goth adjacent (like echo and the bunnymen). I haven't met a goth today that doesn't like at least a few of the 70's/80's goth adjacent bands, so I wouldn't nessecarily say they're neglected by the community. For me, personally, I consider them to be under the goth subculture umbrella, just not gothic rock. Genres like post punk and new wave are directly related to goth rock through punk, so they're kinda like family to goth! I also consider some of those bands that are technically post punk or new wave to be more goth than goth adjacent, like joy division or killing joke. But that's just me. I think every goth will have their own way of categorizing these bands.
95K Nice. You are so articulate, lovely, and ridiculously cute (16:15). I've been watching your videos for a while now, and they keep getting better. Always trying to help with fashion, make-up, music, and just sharing. Carry on Angela, that 100K is almost there. And deservedly so.
All I have to say is once again 💯 accurate. Your Tik Tok's aren't "disturbing" because they are facts. You see it and define it just like I do as an elder goth. We love baby bats, it doesn't matter if someone finds there way into the scene via the fashion first as long as the music is part of it. Goths back in the day understood this. That is why when my first year of High-school I (my parents in middle school were fairly controlling with my fashion and where I was allowed to shop) plus I didn't know much about goth fashion. I was friends with the most alternative kid in my middle school, and we were bullied everyday for it, but at the time I dressed 90s skater alt with wide leg pants and anime tees because that was the most alt I was allowed and kept away from learning about alt fashion, but due to my love of horror and alt movies I discovered a lot of goth music (because movies like the Hunger, Lost boys, the crow etc) So, High-school I went to an "alternative" High-school and it was crazy, because a lot of the kids there were alt. (skaters, punks, goths) and people talked to me and wanted to be my friend and I was used to being bullied (my middle school was a performing arts school and you had to audition to get in even though it was a public school, a lot of rich kids who thought they were special/important went there and I think that was probably why it was so bad.) So, first day I had skater kids all invited me to hang out with them, so I did. They were awesome and nice to me, probably a day or 2 later I met the goth kids and they hung out together, and they invited me to go to this coffee shop in the village not to far from our school, and we got on the subject of music, and they pretty much laughed at me, not to make fun if me but they were like "you are so goth and don't even know it" because all the music I liked. They were like "you may not dress goth but your goth" and then a few weeks later I found out one of the goth boys had a crush on me and we started dating. We sadly broke up because of other people's jealousy making our lives hard. It wasn't until after we broke up that I actually started dressing goth (not related to why I just wanted to) I went to both the Halloween store and Trash &Vaudeville, to make my first goth look, and when I put it on I felt like me, I felt prettier than I ever had previously, and I was like. "I am never going back" to dressing more normie for other people. Because I was in HS at the time I was very extreme. I would wear corset and skirts and trench coats and cloaks. I hung out with the goths, but also the skaters, and also the punks. (I used to find punk guys attractive) so I would go hang out at CBGB before the goth clubs opened. No alt person ever bullied me. It was the "normies" on the street. a lot of grown adult men would be the worst offenders at yelling at people on the street. Back then the goths got yelled at, but so did the punks, so we all had eachothers back still. Even then late 90s early 2000s there were people who would dress goth and usually goths immediately accepted them because of the fashion, but if they weren't into the music at first usually we would share the music with them. if they still weren't into it... The goths would kinda loose interest in hanging out with that person. They wouldn't bully them or anything they would just kind of be labeled a poser and we would still be friendly to them but not be close friends with them. I had friends though who were part of a lot of different alt subcultures, but most of the time I would be clubbing at the Batcave. It was a place I could hang out with my friends and instead of strangers bullying us on the street we would complement each other's outfits, and like you said, a goth look was a goth look and these "subgenes" were fluid. Sometimes the goth night had a theme and people dressed for the theme, but it would be. Today I feel like wearing a velvet dress, today I feel like PVC, today a corset. today a death hawk, today dread falls, some people did stick more to 1 style, but 90% of the people dressed for their mood, or a theme. No one stuck really to just 1 goth style, all the styles were goth, It was about expression, so you expressed the mood you were in that day, and if I pulled up my old pictures my looks would be undeniably goth but all different styles. We delt with some goth quizzers (that no one really liked) but no one in the clubs were really like "you aren't goth" I would say because misinformation on the internet people may say that about my now because they believe you have to be extreme of have white makeup (which was something I never did even as a teen) Though I have been a part of the goth scene for about 25 years now, so I usually laugh if someone tries to say that I am "not goth enough" it feels like "oh sweet child I was goth before you were born" but I would probably question myself a lot today if I were a baby bat. The misinformation is a lot. This is why we need amazing TH-camrs like Angela to squash the misinformation. If there is a lot on Tik Tok then good for you Angela trying to fix some of that. I feel like back in the day we had to fight the good fight on the misinformation about the scene and people we were like the 'Satanic, drug users, bad, nasty, evil, cult, murderers, lazy' etc. and we made people realize we aren't bad people and the subculture isn't bad, but that led to us not having to fix new Misinformation, like the goth scene isn't music based. If your only obstacle is "you have to like some goth music to be goth" that is a really low bar to entry. Goths used to basically live at the goth clubs. If you hate goth music you probably wouldn't have had a good time at a goth club. You dressed up, hung out with your friends, and danced to goth music. You felt at home, but I couldn't imagine feeling at home if I had hated the music. I wouldn't have wanted to go every weekend if the music wasn't my thing. The scene dies without the music. That is just a truth. People are entitled to wear whatever fashion they like, but if they aren't interested in goth in any way passed the fashion then they aren't goth. They are just someone who likes that style. There is nothing wrong with liking whatever style of fashion you like, but that doesn't mean that person is goth. People can throw a tantrum about it. That doesn't change what the subculture has always been about.
I am a goth and I still wear my black Trench coat when I feel like it, I don't consult twitter, I don't ask Angela if it is ok for me to wear it. You were made to live forever, it is a little spark within you. So when sin and death override it, how do you know?
Subcultures are starting to be perceived as a really weird mix of aesthetics and reeeaaaally watered down ideas on TikTok, you can dress alt and not be part of a subculture, and that's okay, but people just label things with ignorance and don't even bother learning about the origin of the word (and the subculture's name) they're using to name a freaking clothing style they find cool or looked at in a certain character when growing up
I never liked the ''evolution'' argument because I'm not inclined to think that something can evolve if its core is removed. Its source. And Goth culture's source is the music. If something ''evolves'' while taking out the core it evolved out of it just becomes a different thing, for example; R&B and Metal both came from Blues if you dig deep enough but I'm not inclined to say they're both the same because of it. Don't get me wrong I love Alicia Keys but if I listen to I don't know Death Decline or something afterwards I'm not quite inclined to think ''Oh man this Death Metal band and piano playing Soul vocalist are totally in the same culture 'cause they both came from Blues''. That'd be weird, right? I'm being humorous and a little self-deprecating here in making my point. But said point still stands because I don't see the logic in calling something an evolution if you take out what it claims to be evolved out of. Symphonic Metal like Epica evolved from the broader genre of Heavy Metal. They belong to the same culture because the core (Aka, Metal music) is still there. And like Metal the music genre is the core of Metal, Goth the music genre is the core of Goth as historically has been the case. You can tell that Goth is music based because historically the music has been its most accessible aspect that kept the culture together and made thrive. It built its foundation. At risk of tiring people by constantly comparing it with Metal but I recognize that same thing here because these are both music based subcultures, which you can tell due to music being the unifying trait all the way at the beginning of it all. If music has been what kept people together in a culture then that music has been the one that built the foundation so to speak. What logic would there then be in removing its foundation?
I cannot yes this enough! Someone had said something to me that sticks with me and they said that when you remove the core you change the resulting beast.
Aspects of social media are slowly morphing the notion of what the "subculture" is and how it got there to suit there own desires and elevate their own concerns. For them "goth" is a look and follows certain consumer trends that can easily be bought into and used to justify their status. They have little or no concern for either music or knowledge because they have so little background in either, and they can't use it to elevate their presence and social position. All that is of value to them are the things they want to talk about that validate their supposed authority as content providers. Their historical revisionism is of little concern to them. Only how they see it now matters to them. The music was a driving force in the early 80s because there was no internet, and music was the medium with which a lot of young people identified and how they found "their tribe," - through the music. It was the mood and tone of music that was considered punk, post punk, goth, industrial, and a few other strains that we all had a passion for. Social media and the internet is focused on the visual and on status within an online community. It has gotten to the point where those in younger generations may not consider music as important as a force which binds them together. As far as the importance of the real backgrounds goes, I recently posted this on a similar discussion; "Everything can change and evolve over time, but if the real background and sources that are influential don't matter at all, then why use the label or claim to be a part of it?" I've been into the music since 1980, and still care enough about it to be concerned about where the subculture has gone in that time, but to many young people, that 44 year trail of knowledge is irrelevant to their own identification with current standards of appearance and present day concerns and standards.
I feel like this is happening in all “alternative” cultures. I used to see colored hair and piercings on a person and think “oh they must be into some kind of alternative music” but not anymore a lot of those people that dress like that listen to pop and hip hop :/
I would totally take a chance to try to listen to/understand the tiktoker mentioned, but the typos and clear disinterest in spelling words correctly to a degree that makes it kind of hard to even understand what they’re saying makes me stressed
I started out as a metal head and i never called myself goth back then cause in my soul it didnt feel right but now that i know the difference and have been goth for almost 10 years now, calling myself goth feels safe and right.
I Love how you drop that REAL KNOWLEDGE. Sooo many people are now clamming goth or punk when back when I was coming along society was cruel to anyone that appeared different then the other’s in school & in public. Nowadays the new generation is wearing the clothes and hairstyles that now oh it’s ok to rock this or that style. But the 90s on back got no credit for truly your self.
Okay I understand. I know peoples bully at punk, gothic and other. Peoples are not nice. I don’t like bullying. Let them alone. If you don’t like them and have to stop bullying. I heard about men beat at Sofia girl and her boyfriend at night. At hospital Sofia died. It’s so sad. 👍😊🤟🏾🖤🤟🏾🦇😢📱
At the end of the video when mentioning 'going old school' it reminded me of a couple years ago I went out with some friends. Whilst there I dressed like I used to back in the 90's, just for nostalgia's sake. (I'm 44 btw) As soon as i turned up a stranger came up to me who was about my age and said I looked awesome (her actual words) But no more than 10 mins later a young female goth tried making fun of me for the way I looked. Just shows some of the mentality differences between different aged goths. Or was that just a one off experience? Hasn't happened before or since so Im not too sure tbh. Im used to people staring and scowling at me, but not other goths.
The lack of awareness this person & their friend who’s posting about you on TikTok have is insane. They immediately have decided to hint at you being transphobic, that you’re gate keeping, and that you are friends with someone who laughs at dead animals (??what??), and are calling you ableist because you liked a comment that someone made about the person being bad at using grammar. It’s crazy to me, because they’re saying it’s ableist because they’re dyslexic - it looks more like they were typing too fast, it wasn’t misspelling words, it was no spaces and wrong keys being pressed but not a misspelling. This is peak TikTok-Core, chronically online people who cannot comprehend difference in opinion, and feel the need to desperately gain validation through victimhood. So odd tbh, I seriously hope these people grow up
As someone who has been "goth" since the 2002 when I was only 16 and has only just today found out that people are saying goths are defined by music alone. I'm so baffled. I just only found out this because I'd never heard the term Nu-goth before. So I looked into it and found this vid by a channel called Drama Kween. Sure she says a lot of positive things about not being elitist. But also says you're only goth if you listen to goth music (though not exclusivly)... So by that definition no deaf people can ever be goth. Screw that bs. Also means someone who likes darkwave and post punk but never dresses goth, would be a goth. So, what would I be then? I have a general interest in the macabre, I wear black lipstick, eyeshadow and nail varnish, I wear black clothing, I wear a leather trench coat, I wear frock coats, I own several alchemy gothic pieces of jewellery and a fair bit of Nemesis Now décor, I've read the complete works or Poe and Byron, I've read Mary Shelleys Frankenstein, Bram Stokers Dracula, Anne Rices Vampire Chronicles, Some of my favourite movies are the likes of The Crow, The Craft, The Lost Boys, The Addams Family, pretty much every horror classic and everything by Burton. Plus the movies of the books I mentioned. I have a vintage taxidermized bat, a ravens skull, a scorpion encased in amber, a tarantula encased in resin, a framed Death's-head hawkmoth. I have a 1:1 scale 3d printed replica of my own skull. I made my own Victorian inspired "Vampire killing kit" for fun. I've attended Whitby Goth Weekend who knows how times... But I do not listen to darkwave, or deathrock, or post punk. So does that mean I'm not goth? Admittedly I don't generally call myself a goth that often. I would describe myself more as a gothic metalhead. But still. Though I do listen to Gothic Metal, Symphonic Metal, Industrial Metal, Alt Metal, Black Metal and I have a thing for dark orchestral scores and dark classical pieces.
@@angelabenedict I am indeed. But I just don't see how being into every else goth aside from a small list of approved music genres makes me not a goth as well as a metalhead. Why doesn't gothic metal count? Its literally in the name and comes from goth rock. I don't see huge difference between them. Plus I dislike the idea that a deaf person can not be goth, which would be the case if you only define it by music. Also cybergoths are not "real goths" either then since they listen to industrial. Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm a trad goth, and I can 100% see darkwave, post punk and goth rock being a defining factor for *trad* goth. And listing to deathrock being a defining thing for deathrockers. But I think a metal goth, is just as valid as a "subgenre" of goth as any other. Can you explain to me why gothic metal is the cut off point? I mean, goth metal evolved from goth rock, goth rock evolved from post punk, post punk evolved from punk. So why does it stop at goth rock? Despite there being other genres that also evolved from goth rock that are considered goth. Like darkwave. Witch house also seems to have made the cut as goth music, despite being new. Where as gothic metal has been around since the early 90's with bands like Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride. Paradise Lost being actually formed in 88. It has all the same hallmarks of goth that all the other approved genres have. It seems arbitrary to me.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop Ask any seasoned metalhead and they'll tell you - because Gothic Metal is a subgenre of metal. Gothic is being used as the descriptor of the type of metal. Goth = Music, Gothic = Descriptor.
@@angelabenedict I'm almost 40 and I've been into metal since I was a tween. I *am* a seasoned metalhead. Also Goth Rock is a derived from Post-Punk, which is a subgenre of Punk, which is a derived of Rock. Metal is also derived from Rock and Punk. You also avoided my question. Why is Gothic Metal the cut off point? Your point about goth vs gothic is invalid as Goth Rock is also (and originally) known as Gothic Rock, so its also a descriptor. The term Goth itself is also just Gothic shortened. Every genre of "Goth" music has the same hallmarks that define them as Gothic Music. Minor key, melancholy melodies, haunting atmosphere, dark themes, sometime references to gothic literature. Add New Wave to the formula and you get Darkwave, which is approved as Goth. Add Post-Punk to the formula and you get Gothic Rock, which is approved as Goth. Add horror and theatrics to the formula and you get Deathrock, which is approved as Goth. Add trap and you get Witch House, which is approved as Goth. So why is it when you add metal to the exact same formula that unites all the others as "Goth", which is also derived from the same Punk and Rock origins as Goth Rock, its somehow, NOT Goth? Despite having every single hallmark that defines and unifies other genres of Goth. The literal only difference between Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal is that the composition is heavier. And as I said, by your definition, no one born Deaf can ever be Goth. An ableist stance that I vehemently oppose. Maybe its just because I'm British. The goth scene here isn't that divided.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop It would only be ableist to say that someone who is deaf cannot dress how they want or like any of the things you mention. That WOULD be ableist! But music-based subcultures exist for a reason and always have. Saying someone is goth because they like goth music is the same as saying someone who likes metal is a metalhead. If I went to metal events and called myself a metalhead even though I don't like metal, I would get weird looks. Same concept. No one is saying that goths own all things dark and macabre. Everyone should be free to like what they like without reservations! Clarifying goth as a music subculture helps keep alive that aspect of it that we love (goth clubs and music etc). I hope that clears it up some; I say all this with respect and love 🖤
I got this for years I'm still the same person I just don't appear that way anymore. I've had my hair set on fire I've had bottles thrown at me etc I agree it has to stop
The music is the soul of many subcultures. If you don't like the music, then you don't like the soul of that subculture. You can't join the Kawaii subculture and think that j-pop music is trash but only like the fashion. You can't be part of the street fashion subculture and not like hip hop. It makes no sense. Music is the soul.
Idk if this has been brought up already, but my theory is that this is an argument that will always happen the most on whatever social media platform is more popular with younger folks. Used to be youtube, now it's tiktok. That's where you'll find the largest crowd of people that are not really interested in the subculture and will grow out of it. The ones that stay will continue spreading good info on tiktok. Then another platform will emerge and it'll happen all over again
I think what really didn't help was how goths were typically portrayed in TV and movies. It was usually a girl at school that wore all black and was there to be creepy and scare people. She'd just show up and everyone would gasp in fear. There was never mention of the music. The character or sometimes characters were there to be a joke. So then if someone wore all black in real life. They were assumed to be goth even though they may have never identified as one. And I went to high school in the 00s and there were certainly kidd who dressed "goth" to be the scary different kid. But I think it was from watching TV and seeing those characters. In the late 00s I was into emo. Everyone outside the emo scene said I was a goth. (Although to be fair I'd insist I wasn't emo... but I also didn't claim to be a goth). Now people call dressing witchy goth even though they may not listen to the music.
Do you remember back years ago there was an elitist that used to bully you?? he said you weren't goth, or goth enough, now even this is evolving into a different way of bulling! Why can't people accept what we all belong to a community and enjoy being together? They're always trying to separate and make people feel bad about themselves :(
No I don't! I did get some bullying back in the day when I first started my channel when the only real exposure people had to goth was IBF So they would see that style and associated with goth and anyone that didn't fit that aesthetic they would call fake. The majority I got it from were women, there were men as well but there wasn't any one in particular that stood out, they would just leave nasty comments and be on their way.
how did they even win a copyright strike when you used their video for commentary? it's literally transformative media. but they get to just run their mouth about you on their platform? make it make sense
Easy, they made it their life's work to create content off of conflict that they themselves create alongside A very fragile ego meaning, they can dish it out but they can't take it. This has caused them to learn how to silence people when they're not part of their echo chamber.
@@angelabenedict i continue to be impressed by your patience and willing to still try to educate people when they can get away with spewing the most incorrect shit with their whole chest
It's very easy. TH-cams copy right system is extremely broken. Angela is right. Cause a fight. People defend themselves using a clip from said video. Claim copy right claim. Make your own one-sided video. Claiming victimhood.
@@bluephoeenix i remember seeing someone copying a person's whole channel, reuploading their videos as their own and when the original channel claimed copyright, the imposter channel used their personal information listed in the complaint to doxx them. idk if youtube still makes you give out personal info to do that anymore, but you're right, it's so broken on here
Please visit Portland, OR! We'd love to take you to dinner at Raven's Manor with a follow up visit to Coffin Club. We love you and your channel. Bullying is not goth. The beauty of this subculture is that it is so very welcoming to everyone. Gay, straight, black, white, big, small, etc. Just enjoy the music! Fashion is fun but it's such a small component to this subculture. Take the baby bats under your dark, leathery wings and introduce them to this amazing subculture. No bullying! Xoxo Angela!
I say look at the age of the person saying baby bats are being bullied, because, these days giving advice, constructive criticism or even speaking of our personal progression is now taken as a micro-aggression ie: bully or passive bullying. It's so bizarre to me. I'm an oldie, knocking on the door of 60. I started out as "punk" that migrated to "goth" as a result of my taste in literature that coupled with my musical influences. It became an external aesthetic of my deeply held interests. As time went on, as it does, my external aesthetic changed, improved, dulled or matured. Marriage, motherhood, divorce, relocation, etc. life experience will have an influence on your style or one's attitudes, but bullying is not an attribute I'd ever expect from a Goth. Just my 2 cents.
Believe me, I know exactly what you're talking about. We come from a generation where we had to take accountability for our words and our behavior. Anything we did or said would find its way back to our front door in a face-to-face confrontation in less than one business day. That's why there was much less shit talking back in the day. Nowadays, given the rise of social media and texting, there is an innate lack of accountability because people can say things while hiding and never have to be held accountable for their words. I remember actual gatekeeping, actual elitists. We called them pretentious because elitist was far too dramatic - but they would corner young goths that were new to the club and just lay into them with an aggressive interrogation in such a Socratic way that they somehow got you to inadvertently call yourself a poseur.
Keep it up Angela! I admire your strenght and compassion! ❤️ I'm not on tick tok at all, but judging from my daughters reactions to some of it it's a sespool (did I spell that right?! You know what I meen, a stinking pond of gue that probably belongs in a special facility for waste disposal and cleaning). She tried to find good goth content creators, but finaly gave up and filled her fy-page with funny kittens and dogs that forgets how to dog. Between horror gaming and real life board games and DnD (I nudge her in your direction btw)
You're a really great parent to be on top of your daughter's social media consumption. The things that they can be exposed to that can really impact their mental health can be quite detrimental. It really takes quite a lot of effort to custom craft your FYP page to only show you the things that you genuinely enjoy and even then they still manage to throw in a jump scare video which is something deeply disturbing like real life tragedies caught on camera or something sleep hauntingly depraved. You are doing the right thing by not being on that site, I find myself there because for some reason in my twisted brain I feel like I have to do it.
@@angelabenedict I've got a great kid! My "little" (she's turning 15 this September) rascal has always been smart and we always kept an open dialogue about things. Hopefully she comes to me with all her problems and the good things to. And she does. She talks to me if there is any problems on line, she report and block creepy people and so on. She never share any personal information and so on. (She doesn't even have any pictures of her face on her IG, which is private btw). So well.....I'm fiercly proud of her!
Saying ' Im a goth, but never listen to goth music' is like saying 'I am a christian, but dont read the bible'. If you dont relate to the source, why do you even wanna be called goth?
It's a bizarre concept and some of the ones who feel this way are quite young and don't know any better but they learn as they get older some of them dig their heels in or are just I know it all.
I’m getting bullied on TH-cam so bullying is on all sights and TH-cam does nothing about it….. They make up lies about me and takes everything out of context. They also do this to other people they are scary people also they have 3 channels and pretend to be different people when they are one person who never shows themselves and uses voice changers . Sorry you having this problem too…
@@angelabenedict I cover Eugenia Cooney and Jeffree Star and was a mod in ohlordyits jordy channel and they bullied him to unmod me and started making horrible videos about me TH-cam does nothing to remove their evil videos. I cover these people for those who don’t have TikTok and just post them but what they do is make fun of these people they also never show themselves on videos and use voice changers . Ty for listening I’m sorry you had to deal with bullying too
@angelabenedict do you follow simplespooky and Rosie pinipy I followed them on social media's but they blocked can you give me tips how to get passed people blocking .
Of course nobody is ‘bullying baby bats’ I still go to Goth gigs and events all the time here in the UK including my regular Goth/Darkwave night ‘Ascension’ here in Edinburgh and the idea that there are ‘Elders’ ganging up and bullying baby bats is ridiculous. Everybody is there to socialise, dance and enjoy the music! At the end of the day the people who think they are being bullied are people who are not in the subculture, they are presumably people that do not go to any clubs, gigs, events of festivals and have no love at all for any of the music played there and the bullying ( if it even exists!) is probably nothing more than having it pointed out that the sub culture actually exists! The so called ‘gatekeepers’ are there to show you were the gate is and welcome you in, just because they point out you are at the wrong gate doesn’t mean they are excluding you! As for these online weirdos, I’m reminded of the old saying, don’t wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!
I know I might be late to this but the toxicity of tiktok as a whole is awful I hope these sad, and misreable people find a way to cope with what ever the fuck is going on in their life I really hope this toxicity doesnt push babybats away from this culture bc its really fucking cool as a babybat myself I was almost pushed away because I kept seeing this is how to be goth this is how to dress you should only listen to goth 24/7 etc. and then i got confused but started to realize hey as long as you like the music, you're goth
People seem to forget that in a world where labels are so important, its okay to just be "alternative." You don't have to be goth to wear dark clothes or like spooky things!
That is very true! People tend to fixate on the goth label and feel like they need to further categorize themselves because alt isn't enough. It is!
I always find it funny when ppl say that the concept of goth as a music-based subculture is “elitist”, as if listening to music wasn’t the easiest and most low-cost part of it all😂
And online forums are full of recomendations! We're not keeping any gates, the gates are wide open, and we're literally begging you to come through it
A lot of people think gate-keeping is saying that a place has a fence, you might show them the entrance but they will still be upset that the place isn't whatever they want it to be. I think it mostly comes from people giving the label "goth" waaay too much importance, like saying that they aren't goth is a insult
@@anabea3199 They see it as an attack on their self identity. The problem is they often have a romanticised view of what they think goth is. Then they see what goth really is and can't take it. And then the forcing things they like into goth so it fits with their flawed view starts.
Right??? As a goth on a budget the music is the easiest and best part for me. I'm currently doing my best with thrifting and DIY, and my makeup, but I don't always look the most goth. I'm slowly working on changing that but I have a strict budget. Sometimes I have to remind myself that goth is a music based sub-culture and I'm still goth because I love the music even when I don't look like the most goth that ever gothed.
Exactly, I mean it's literally inclusive with that itself. You don't need expensive clothes or anything. If you like the music you're a Goth. It's so weird how everything has been misconstrued these days. I mean we swung the gate open and handed y'all the keys.
I saw this person on my FYP bragging about getting your video taken down and all I could think was what a sad, strange individual.
They're known for bullying others quite aggressively, unfortunately this is their life.
@@angelabenedictI checked their videos out. What a vicious little person. Such a big bully!
I feel like TikTok is more “let’s act goth because it’s cool now, but I’m not actually goth.” I remember back in the day when goths and nerds were picked on.. now they’re trending. 🙄
Im 21 but now we get picked on by ‘Tik Tok goths’
@@valyriablack2136 ridiculous. The internet does more harm than good these days.
@@jackieskellington227 I agree. I may be new generation but the goth subculture (and alternative) has always been a home to me. Even before Tik Tok became a thing alternative or even slightly different people got picked on, bullied. Especially for our music taste. It’s so sad not much has changed and people now think it’s about having (aka forcing) the same lame ideology on ‘what they think goth is’. Personally in my opinion I think it just ruins a lot
Of things for those who actually appreciate goth for what it us
I'm a Goth in her early 30s and I don't have a Tik Tok cause all I see is how bad the comments could get and bullies are everywhere
@@GothicDragonfly I personally think TikTok is stupid. I never go on there.
What they call bullying is just people pointing out facts or disagreeing with them. They're not getting bullied. They just can't stand people having a different opinion than them. That's how kids are nowadays. It's sad but true.
And that's really the truth of it. I remember being a baby bat myself and What it felt like when someone would correct me or teach me something. It felt like they were condescending me or insulting me or calling me a poseur. It didn't matter how well-meaning it was and even though unless it was really over the top insulting, I kept my mouth shut And happily accepted the correction - my insecure baby bat self did feel For lack of a better way to put it, bullied. So, I get where they're coming from but at the same time they really need to learn what real gatekeeping is. If someone's gatekeeping you, they give you nothing. In fact they give you the opposite of nothing, they mock you and send you the wrong way. If someone is educating you, that's handing you the keys.
I agree, besides “that’s how kids are nowadays”. Pretty much no young person I know is like this. Probably a location thing.
So this is the person responsible for all the "goth is politics, goth is literature, music isn't the core" comments I started seeing under goth posts on Pinterest. Trying to correct them all is too much work, guess I'm just gonna move over to TH-cam or Reddit for the time being
Using age as an insult is so incredibly f*cking stupid... as if age dictates whether or not you are still allowed to be you...
I've (32) had a really good friend (62) who went to renfaires in full getup, listened to metal and dressed the way she felt until her sadly too early demise.
She enjoyed life and never let age be a thing at all.
Unfortunately ageism is something that's very common over on TikTok. A lot of the cloud chasers on there use it as a tool to silence people That will openly disagree with them or try and correct them because they know they're wrong. But when they're spreading this ageism, it creates all these other prejudices like the ones that you mentioned. Like we're not allowed to express ourselves or still have the same hobbies and interests.
Saying that Goth has nothing to do with the music is like saying the same about heavy metal! Iron and steel have been around for CENTURIES, but heavy metal has NOTHING TO DO WITH "heavy metal", like iron, steel etc. Its about THE MUSIC! Just like Goth. I grew up around the beginning of Goth music. Bands like The Damned, Depeche Mode and The Cure were just starting out! And many of us OG Goths started out as fans of punk bands, like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Sex Pistols etc. Goth culture is HEAVILY INFLUENCED by the music. And those who claim it isn't are the ones trying to "gatekeep"!
Yes yes and yes! I could not agree with you more! And that's the absolute irony of the whole thing. The ones that are claiming that the actual Goths trying to maintain the integrity of the subculture are gatekeeping are in fact the actual gatekeepers because what they're doing is they are spreading the misinformation that gate keeps baby bats from finding the subculture in the first place by creating all of these barriers of mass quantities of content.
I still get called goth dad 😁 even though I don't look goth.... My eldest girl is 18 soon and she's really carrying on the goth torch, music, goth clothes etc etc... I'm proud of her. And she's loving your videos 🖤
You're a father of a baby bat? That makes you a Goth Dad! Enjoy the title. Tell your baby bat an elder says hi! 🫶🏻
I’ve had conversations w/ friends about people who think they’re part of the community like the young woman who went off on you in dms. They’re not really goth to begin with….they want nothing to do with community, don’t go to shows or really listen to music. They’ve made up their mind on what goth is about and won’t be told otherwise…the minute you try to have legit or honest conversation you get called “gatekeeper” bc they’ve got nothing else.
EXACTLY! I've had unfortunately ran into people like that on Facebook. One had the nerve to throw my Cancun trip into my face. Saying you're goth? Why are you going to Cancun. Uh, because I like the beach? I told her that's rich coming from someone who's never stepped foot in a Goth club and has never met a real goth in her life. She blocked me. Normies pretending to know how us Goths lives is hilarious. And pathetic.
Exactly, and that's really the crux of the issue. They have no part of the subculture but like to dress the part and use the label. When you try to have a conversation with them, they're immediately on the defensive because they know they're wrong but they use the term gatekeeper and elitist to shut the conversation down. You can't disagree with me because now you've made me a victim. Then, younger goths that don't know any better see this and think that we're actually the ones that are doing the bullying.
@angelabenedict It's a major issue. Normies coming into our spaces claiming one thing. While we goths correct them, they scream bulling and etc. They can dish it, but can't take it. It's very confusing for baby bats.
Your need to be offended is quite troubling. Please, get help.
@@satanic_sammi Get help for your chronic need to find reasons to be offended. No one is being transphobic - GET HELP.
The comment about how punk is a political based subculture first with a music scene second makes me so angry! I discovered gothic rock through post punk, which i discovered through punk. Punk is not just a political subculture with a music scene! It is a music scene first and foremost with very innate ties to politics! Someone who has "punk politics" but doesn't listen to the music isn't a punk, but a progressive/leftist/etc... Both music and politics are important to being a punk, but music comes first.
That claim also doesn't make sense because there are SO MANY WAYS to be political if you're a punk. Punks can fit into a VARIETY of progressive/left leaning ideologies!
thank you !
i initially believed the bashful comments calling non-liberals racist, saying that punk has inherently always been pro-lgbtq, and conservatives are the scum of the earth & should go to hell, were all supposed to be ironic shitposts...
it was highly optimistic of me to assume that to say the least
The problem with why this person has so many conflicting and misinformed ideas is because they don't actually believe in them themselves.
This is a person who desperately wants to fit a niche but also wants popularity so in order to do that you need to do a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and pander to a group that doesn't know any better (aka kids) or anyone who's ever felt in any way dejected in order to not only schmooze their way into a subculture they have no part of but also gain a following and attention which is what they want.
Not to mention, there are also literal Nazi punks, like.... even if it were a political based subculture.... there's no political coherence, because punks do exist on the whole spectrum of political identities. Now, the left leaning punks are gonna try to run off the Nazi punks and good fucking riddance to 'em, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, too. The closest coherence to "punk" is the style of music. The messages can vary wildly. There's nothing else that connects them but the genre of music they are a part of. This person doesn't even know Nazi punks exist, I bet they think if they see a punk, they're gonna be a leftist. F---- moron. Gonna get themselves in trouble when they run across some asshole punk who's not a leftist. LOLOLOLOL.
Thank you batcave,
for innuendo.
Then Siouxsie cut all the bs out with,
when you grovel at my feet keep it short and sweet."
Even in teen/YA books from the 2000s made sure to stipulate that the characters who were goths went to goth shows, and listened to gothic music lmao.
(Nadine from Girls in Love immediately comes to mind)
Non goths always trying to dictate to goths what Goth is while they themselves are not a part of the subculture.
sorry, no idea why I put this shoe on (I actually don't, but hey...) this is exactly the very bully take but you can't see it... it is what bullies do, taunt those who they don't deem to be one of them... but maybe that is too difficult to understand for you. You might think about your take a little bit... if you are old enough to understand, that is.
edit: you could also say "get a life"... when one must ask, what kind of "life" the person means, usually it is a mean phrase to insult a person. Very childish if you ask me...
Hi Skum. Thanks for the engagement. 😂😂😂
Wow its crazy how unaware people are to their own stupidity, the fact they were so desperate for being right that they started accusing you of misgendering is such and incredibly awful low blow.
They're known for it. I've had many people in my inbox that have had run-ins with them, and they were all accused of varying things from being racist to far right and transphobic.
I wouldn't consider myself a baby bat but at 23, it's my mission in life to bring new people to the goth subculture. It's my home, my safe place, and it's who I am to my core. I don't gatekeep ANYTHING and I'm more than willing to share everything from the music to how I dress to how I do my makeup. There's always room for baby bats and I do my very best to light the torch.
You've always been so passionate and sharing when it comes to the subculture. You're exactly what baby bats need to see. 🖤
In my babybat phase, the eldergoths really took me under their wings and tried to help. I know I was annoy af but they never once bullied me.
That's really the majority of what you will see. Elders helping baby bats. And I'm going to be 100% honest, when I've seen people who were older doling out abuse - they turned out to not be goths at all. They were alternative or darkly inclined but not Goths. And it makes sense because they don't have the same stake in it that we do. They have nothing to lose because they're not actually part of it So they'll happily and openly for the sake of their own ego bully kids in black.
Protect the baby bats.. Do No Harm.❤🦇❤
As a 30-yearold autistic goth; Exactly this! All we can do is teach them that goth is about the music, and suggest some bands. For the rest, it's really their goth journey in the end. Also, some baby bats frankly get too much flak if they start out with the fashion and the music comes a few years later; lord knows I started out that way at age 13. But I grew intro a proper goth as early as 2 years after I started dressing the part; I think bands like Skinny Puppy at the time came around the time I was either 14 or 15 years old. We just have to give the baby bats a gentle nudge in the right direction, and give them some time. The ones that'll stay in the subculture will eventually come around to the music.
🖤🖤🖤
I find tik tok really just amplifies the worst of every subculture
Oh yes, the generations that can't handle the critique so they pull the "law" card. They would like to comment on everything, but they don't want to hear the comment back. Its childish, narcissistic and totally ego-driven without even realising its tarnishes the entire subculture. Kudos for you Angela for having such nerves of steel. Many of those young kids will drop the subculture, the first moment they will be confronted (for work, for college, for a person).
ps also sad to say, but TT is definitely a toxic space i couldn't contribute to. I only see people arguing and pushing the algorithm that way. only conflicts bringing attention.
I feel like the same thing happens with non alt people saying everything is ‘emo’. They just can’t be bothered learning.
It does such a disservice to it as well because the things you learn along the way make it so much better.
I've been called goth because of the way I dress and the only times I have been "correctly" identified as emo has been when people say it jokingly because they notice my scars, I am emo full on, but .... being identified as emo because of a really unhealthy stereotype is not it for me
@@kasthehuman oh that's for sure because of how people stigmatize mental disorders and less about the music. people are very ignorant and discriminatory about mental disorders like depression. sometimes it feels like we've made such little progress in that area as a society (in the usa) but then I remember I am thankful I wasn't alive when it would have been legal for my husband to ship me off to an insane asylum.
I'm so happy as a 32 year old baby bat to have found your channel ❤
I'm so happy I've been able to help you 🖤🖤🖤
Welcome!~ 🖤🐈⬛🖤🦇🖤🐈⬛🖤
Welcome Baby Bat! We have cookies and kitties and puppies!
Welcome ❤
You know that this person has no substance to stand when you tell them to show you the receipts but continues to throw garbage at you with no proof. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and the real homies know you and your character! You’re amazing❤
Literally no receipts. They kept saying that during our conversation I refer to them as 'he' - firstly, I don't know their gender but fortunately My default of 'they/them' pronouns with literally everybody has never failed me and two - The way they claimed that I misgendered them is literally impossible using basic human speech.
I mean, they could have at least tried scroll through the comments in the previous video to find the evidence that they were misg- oh wait, they couldn't, because they got the video taken down!
@@DylanDahmer I had MANY people in my DM's telling me about how to bullied and attacked them and when they defended themselves - you tried to brand them, right wingers, racists or transphobic and then threatened to doxx them. Explains why you have an active and paid for 'been verified' account.
If anything with my experience I’ve felt more bullied by baby bats because ageism.
There is so much of that around right now.
I mean, look at the comments from the person in my DMs. Aegist comment after ageist comment this is literally something that is illegal and has gotten people sued but it's so commonplace that they felt completely comfortable doing it. Like it rolled off the tongue so naturally.
Time is telling, time is patient, and hopefully when that day comes when they emotionally mature, they'll finally realize that we all age- some with grace and some without.
I remember also babybats being the gatekeepers from when I was a teen and babybat myself! I guess it is partially physiological not trying to be patronizing but a lot of enthusiasm mixed with huge teen emotions and "all or nothing mentality" will do that to a person. On the other hand 99% of elder goths were and are rather chill and open to talk all things music 😅
I love how people like this as soon as you tell them goth is a music based subculture they imitaly call you a gatekeeper.
I wonder can those who are only interested in the fashion part of goth and not the music call themselves goth or should they call themselves something else to respect that goth is a music based subculture?
@@teijaflink2226 they can call themselves gothic or alt. But gust not goth.
Agreed, Alternative would probably be more fitting since they just like the style. That and Alternative encompasses various things under the umbrella style wise.
Wow, Imagine being so ableist to assume that deaf people can't enjoy music. What do you think the sign language interpreters at large concerts are there for? Goth is music based, babe.
@@satanic_sammi You know exactly what you said. You're ableist against the deaf community for assuming that they can't enjoy goth music. Please, educate yourself.
TikTok is a freaking cesspool. The music is a central part of the subculture. I still don’t call myself goth because even if I listen to the music, I haven’t gone to any clubs or shows.
Much of it really is but you do have some genuine people out there trying. The younger generations just do better with short form media like what they produce on TikTok which is why a lot of them are there but unfortunately this is also why a lot of them have been fed false information, misled and now idolize not so great people with not so great intentions because they just don't know any better. The only thing we can do is try to help them when we see it and hope for the best.
Wow. That goes too far , that’s why I try to stay as far away from TikTok as I can. When I start to share my pov, it makes views but it’s also super triggering.
Thank you for resuming everything in this video. 🖤
that person “Skum” has been all over my fyp and all they do is talk and talk and talk. They aren’t even goth and think it’s their place to talk about it??
Unfortunately there's a large majority of people out there who talk but aren't actually saying anything.
Their name fits…
@@rdzu834 Exactly!
I agree with you on the long form content tends to foster community rather than the short form content.
It breeds and impatient person. Because the short form content meant that they only had a certain amount of time to get as many words and as possible, they also had to speed it up if they had something to say So not only are they used to things shorter but they're used to it faster so they listen to people like us and we must sound drunk. 🤣
Hi Angela, I’m glad I stumbled upon this video. I’ve had experience with this sort of bullying in the past and felt like I didn’t look “goth” enough. It happened in person when I was still in high school. All of the discourse online made me feel this way too. It eventually turned me off from the subculture in general and I eventually stopped trying to look the part but always remained goth at heart, considering I love the music and the literature. Nowadays, I dress the complete opposite of goth and lean more towards “cottagecore” styles despite still listening to the gothic genre of music. This video further proved to me that it’s okay to not look the part as long as you listen to the music, but I also think it’s my sign to re-add the gothic style into my catalogue of many styles, haha. This time, I’ll dress in the mindset that I am goth despite what anyone else says, as it’s a huge part of me. :) Looking forward to your future videos, thank you for this sign. 🩷
I couldn't handle the tiktok side of the subculture. Wasn't great for my mental health at all. I found myself looped right back into depression because it made me feel like an old piece of shit at only 32. Hilarious that they called me a poser when I've been involved in the Austin scene for 15+ years and even helped a good friend promote their gig as a DJ at Elysium multiple times. but yeah, I'm a poser according to some zoomer in Siouxsie Sioux makeup who listens to deftones. Funny how they wanna be experts on the subculture but we never see them actually active in the community. Inb4 "Babybats have to be 21+ to go to shows." Nah, these tiktokers who tried to gatekeep me are over 21 and could participate in the scene but choose not to.
also, no shade to Deftones enjoyers, I even like some of their stuff but that band or Ghost, Nightwish..etc are not goth. period.
We have all ages shows here in my area. Which is great because I didn't have access to that when I got into the scene back in the early 2000s.
See, i get more annoyed when someone thinks its not about the music because, half the rime, if not most of the time im not dressed in gothic fashion, I'm walking my dog in mud or working or chilling out at home. I can't be bothered to dress up all the time, I'll save that for special days or when im going out properly, not for everyday. But when people say its fashion first, music not required, it makes me feel super isolated from saying hey i like goth because 'i dont look the part' and im constantly feeling like i have to defend that i genuinely do enjoy the subculture. If you want to dress up everyday, thats fine, but i cant. What i actually can do everyday is listen to goth music. I love it, so i naturally fell into this side of youtube because my interests and the youtubers i watched crossed over. Ive jokingly referred to myself as a 'sleeper goth' because most people won't know thats what I'm into until they talk to me, but within a minute of coversation they figure it out pretty quick because of the music i listen to 😂😂😂
I'm disabled, so I can't dress the part all the time. I'm an elder. Don't let them tell you, your not Goth because you chose to wear a comfortable pink dress on Tuesday. You listen to the music, that's all that matters.
@@bluephoeenix *you're. Goths also tend to be able to know basic spelling and punctuation.
it’s amazing because you’re the first goth TH-camr i actually watched back in like 2018 when i finally decided to embrace my inner goth….you’re the reason i find myself regularly explaining the music to people who ask me why im so different. it’s not about the look, it’s about the music! the community! Thanks for all the years of teaching me, Angela 🖤🖤🖤
That makes me so happy to hear! I'm glad that you're able to express yourself the way that you want to. Many people don't get the chance because they can't find the community and feel like the only Goth in the village. Once you find the music, everything changes. 🖤
I’m half baby bat and half not (long story) but what’s kept me from diving in whole heartedly up until recently is the toxicity and horrible infighting. I won’t be on tik tok because of it.
Finding people like you has helped me
Thanks for the video Angela, I'm sorry that your last video got taken down, honestly based on those comments and DMs you can tell that this is a very sad, loathsome individual. Let us be reminded that if someone corrects us on a fact it does not make them a gatekeeper. Thanks for speaking up in defense of babybats, we really appreciate you 🖤🖤🦇
That's okay, love it happens. It's back up now so all is well.
I always love listening to you while I'm driving you just seem to have this way of calming me down idk what it is but you do it
I used to have beef with skum they’re chronically online af & have a mindset of a child 😭
You always make my day, with your content. I absolutely feel the love and concern you have for baby bats, being that I've only been involved with the community for around three years now and I've been lucky enough to have found the right kind of friends and haven't experienced any bullying, but I am old enough to remember when even without the internet people had to really be careful. The rumors alone were frightening of bullying by elitist and in no way could I think or should anyone think that you are an elitist or gatekeeper. They're in no way as caring and informative as you are and that's so appreciated. So the fact the you are doing your due diligence is so inspiring. Thanks 🖤🥀🖤🥀🖤
Thank you so much! There's a lot of validity to what you're saying because much of these fears and angst toward elder goths, gatekeeping and elitism etc comes from fear mongering and the fear-mongering was said into place by clout chasers using goth as a hashtag so they can gain more popularity.
you said what needed to be said. these cry bully's & snowflakes I swear. it's never over the top gate keeping to understand that Goth is a music subculture first & for most. the looks or certain niche Ideologies are 2nd to the Music. good video as always Angela. 😎
Thank you so much, glad you enjoyed it! It's weird to me when people attach themselves to something entirely unassociated with the subject at hand and an attempt to win something that's not meant to be won in the first place.
@@angelabenedict indeed.
To be honest, that person is acting like a troll, if it isn't, looks like affected by some antisocial behaviour (I'm not a psychologist myself but I worked in communities for years). In fact, that discussion ended in laughing and refusing to answer the questions. People with psychological issues tend to have immature behaviours.
As a romantic, I don't even mind to politics, especially because I hate both left and right wing. I prefer to concentrate myself in learning how the people mind and soul works and try to help them with all of my effort, and trying to improve my ability to understand the others.
Gothic architecture and Bauhaus art always liked me. I don't know if it's related with Goth culture but I say that I like styles that are a mixture of art and logical structure, and both the arts that I mentioned earlier represent it.
I think that Goth is also a box that can contain sadness and poetry, so it's not related with strictly Goth music but with all the music that can influence our sentiments. For instance, I liked sad songs even they were pop, metal or any other genre out of Gothic. The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel can be a Goth song, in my humble opinion.
Goth as no a real reference. As far as I know, this term was used by music reviewers to refer to the sad and poetic songs, and it was used on Joy Division and The Doors also, that aren't Goth as we know it nowadays.
Maybe I've written something that I already said in earlier comments, I say sorry for that.
Honestly, I gave up on Tiktok because anyone I've tried to debate with on whatever subject was so defensive to the point of being rude assholes. I see a lot of people who seem to think if you don't conform to what they think you are the one that is immature, as though conformity is maturity. I think not. Either way I got tired of them and deleted the app. I'll stick with TH-cam and Instagram. I've been with TH-cam since it's beginning. Totally different atmosphere.
Same, its just not worth the effort or the stress. It stinks because the clock app is where the new gen is likely to congregate.
Listened to this again, very informative, thank you!! Bullying is never the answer!!
Thank you!
You realize that by engaging with every commenter on this video, you've increased my visibility and view count, right.
FIRST THING TO SAY!! You my dear are doing an amazing job with your videos. The information you share about our subculture is always on point . SECOND THING TO SAY !! I agree 💯 with you , how is it possible for us elders to bully baby bats?!? 🦇 NOT POSSIBLE!!! They are the ones who will keep our subculture ALIVE AND GOING. I personally as an elder get very happy, when I go out to a Goth event,concert or club and see all the baby bats . THRID THING TO SAY!! IT IS A MUSIC SUBCULTURE!! 🎶🎶🖤
I’d often see this person pop up on my FYP and while I originally didn’t have issues with them, I never knew they were this kind of person.
Also labeling someone as a TERF just based off vibes because they don’t like you is some nasty behavior; especially over the topic of ageism.
Yeah, they're kind of a fail human that tries to make a name for themselves off of trying to shame and cancel other people. Since they have legit zero logic behind it, they rely on rapid fire meth style delivery so people don't realize that they don't know wtf they're talking about.
Very well said as always, keep doing your good work Angela!
There are many reasons why some people, especially younger ones really want to deny everything about actual goth, even if we provide them keys to get inside the subculture. Definitely one reason is that some of them are just young and going through a mental phase, it's chaotic for sure where logic really doesn't exist (excluding those who genuinely want to learn real stuff). There's also this: some people deny everything on purpose no matter what, to troll and make other people angry. To make them react to their stuff so they get the easy and quick visibility - people's anger has become one of the most effective shortcuts just to get them easily engaged. They really feed on that anger, and the sneakiest content creators know this. This is the reason why most of the time I personally just ignore the most stupid and absurd looking bullshit algorithms try to feed me in social media. But all that being said, babybats still need the proper guidance when really needed, that's for sure.
So well said! People know how to panda and how to trigger which rather than contribute to something positive, I simply want popularity and monetary benefits. It's funny when I see these people throughout the term gatekeeper when someone comes into correct them because when they're out there deliberately spreading misinformation they're actually gatekeeping baby bats from discovering the actual subculture.
You said it, "Skum'" isn"t worth actual salt. Baby Bats keep the torch going.
Go cry about it.
Tiktok is poison imho. I won't touch that platform.
I think that's why I went there. I think I am just glutton for punishment.
I tend to stick to TH-cam and avoid other outlets for this exact reason. Stay positive and keep up the great work!
Anyone that tries to say goth isn't a music based subculture is delusional and extremely misinformed. If I don't have my makeup done to run to the store, if I don't have my fancy clothes on because I'm tired BUT I'm still listening to and loving the music then I'm still goth. I just shake my head at people that say it's just a fashion/aesthetic thing. No, it's a music based subculture. If you're just in it for the fashion then you're just someone that likes to dress alternatively. That in itself that's fine, just don't call yourself goth. I'd like to take these folks and put them in a goth club and see how they'd react. 😂 It just hurts when we get called gatekeepers or elitists just because we know that it truly is a music based subculture and try to educate these misinformed people on that fact. I've been in the subculture for 33 years, kiddos. I know what is goth and what isn't. 😂😂😂
Keep the good vibe remembering baby-bats about the subculture like that Angela.
Someone needs to do it and you really have the cool approach for it and the knowledge.
Always keeping following you here on TH-cam since a long time and for much longer I hope.
Take care
Xxxx
I fully agree with you :/ I love the music but I don’t dress “trad” or any of the labeled styles of anything I have more of a grunge style (even tho I hate labeling the clothes I wear) I get bullied on insta & more bc I absolutely am part of the goth sub, but I don’t dress like it. Ik yoy don’t have too but I’ve had people identify as “trad goth” tell me I’m not good enough bc I don’t even look goth. It’s crazy anymore!! Where’d all this nonsense come from?
My foot in the door was The Crow, and music is all over the comic and movie. I like Johnny Cash, I like EA Poe, I like Joy Division, I like Neil Gaiman. I can't go to my job in makeup and leather. It's friggin' hot in Texas! Tiktok is made for hot takes by design. Not for me.
I LOVE The Crow! 😎
We love you! Thanks for everything
🖤🖤🖤 I love you too! 🖤🖤🖤
music is extremely important to almost any subculture, if you go to a goth night you’ll notice people aren’t just standing around being all political and preaching their ideology, they’re dancing and singing and swaying and having fun! music connects us, music is the common ground. our self-expression is different, person to person, but the music makes us understand eachother on a basic level. it’s so important. way more important than how you look.
It's a social event! It's how goths interact with the community and just let loose. They listen to their favorite music, get to where their favorite clothes and dance!
I feel that if anything it's mostly baby bat on baby bat elithism. when I was a kid and I tried approaching the alt kids they were super aggressive to me.
so much so that now I still have a strong discomfort even just being asked what music I listen to because that back then was not just a judgment of your taste but also of your character as a person.
I'm so confused to hear all these elder goths who are my age saying that goth was never like this and that it's new. because all these things described I have experienced in highschool in the 90/2000s. being called a poser as soon as one slightly changes style. music basically "stealing fashion" because you were not allowed to wear a specific alt fashion if you did not give proof that a specific genre of music was your entire life and personality and you despised all other kinds.
what kind of heaven of nice alt people have you guys been hanging around in XD?
was it that there were no elder goths in our vicinity? was it like a kindergarthen with no teacher?
honestly I still have anxiety over all this lol
if I like the music and dont have the garments where do I fit in?
also, can you guys give me your 5 darkest songs in your playlists pls?
You're still goth without the clothes, as long as you love the music!
I can give some music recs, what do you mean by the darkest songs?
@@saylremi dark sound, sort of low notes
As you know I don't watch or have any other social medias so I can't really comment on what's going on with them. However I will say I agree with you. Most people just want the label of Goth, Gothic, Darkly Inclined, Alternative... or whatever sub-genre of fashion they like because over the years it has become cooler I guess. I bet you they wouldn't have the same feelings coming up back in the day the way the older people has in the scene.
I think it's strange that people still do that and try change goth to something else.
And I am happy I was teenager and young adult during 80s, when I discovered goth.
But it is sad that even some try "take away the music bit" from it.
Of course no one need to just listen to goth. Fully agree that! Not even Musicians do that.
And I saw on Instagram comments about Black Friday's Goth project she is working on. Some wondered why she didn't show gothic metal and doom metal in the clip. Of course I commented that, mybe cause it's not goth and that it is from metal music.
No, we shouldn't bully each others.
And somehow I am happy I don't have TikTok.
Stay safe gorgeous Angela 🦇🖤🖤🖤🖤🦇
I reaally don't understand why is so hard to use alternative instead of goth. If you dont like goth music you're NOT goth and its OKAY, theres nothing wrong on liking the clothing style and not listening to the music. I myself am more of a metal and aggrotech person so I dont go out calling myself goth just because of the cloathes
Because the term goth and the mystique that surrounds the subculture has an allure to it that people gravitate towards. The other alternative subcultures for whatever reason are seen as a bit cheesy in the eyes of trendseekers and normies. But they associate goth with darkness, horror, Elvira, Morticia, fetishes - all things sexy and unique.
I don't know who is saying that they are older Goths and are bullying the baby bats online, but I do know who's bullying them in real. At least where I live. It's the popular kids who just a few years ago made fun of Goth. They are the ones denying the music, and are still bullying Goths their age. Truth be told, you can pick them out from actual Goths. They wear black, mostly name designer and name brand stuff, yoga pants and sweat shirts, hip hop style jewelry, normal black eyeliner ECT. No dyi, no second hand items, nothing too radical, nothing to make them ridiculed at all. They are the ones following the same tic tokers you are having trouble with, who never, never ever, go out in public like you see them online.. Meanwhile, kids who do listen to the music know the difference. They dress much more like we do, they sometimes prefer newer Goth music to old, but not always. They are the ones visiting cemeteries and reading Poe and are pretty much us just born a different year than we are.
It isn't gatekeeping when we are handing people the keys. Not our fault if they choose not to use them or don't like what they find inside. But we will gatekeep the hell out of people who align themselves with those who seek to harm us and the people we support. Dressing weird and listening to weird music is a political statement in itself when the powers that be want to hammer down anyone different.
Over in r/goth on reddit we get a lot of gatekeeper and elitist accusations because we make it a space focused on goth genre music and everything stems from that. Goth music is a vital component and we don't hold the patent on all dark things. We also use template answers for common questions to make things easier for everyone including links to our musicbox, FAQ and subreddit wiki.
The answers are all there, it's just a shortcut to find them instead of repeating ourselves endlessly. Not everyone will agree with the r/goth approach but it is that way for very good reasons. But people don't like to read anymore and it seems people have forgotten how to search the internet. We get a lot of people asking to do their homework for them.
A great example talked about in the latest Cemetery Confessions ep was a venn diagram with goth music and things goths like and how they mix in the middle.
Handing people the keys, well said
Exactly. Yeah, we gatekeep. But will willingly hand over the keys and tell them about our subculture. They are the ones who gets mad at what they see and want to rearrange our space to fit their bullshit narcissistic narrative.
Such a beautiful top you're wearing! Ugh, crushed velvet is like a sickness i refuse to get over. Obsessed.❤
That person insulting you about your age on your screenshots is clearly jealous and envious of you because you look like a 20 year old. You look so young and have such beautiful skin that it makes 20 and 30 year olds that you look better than jealous of you.
Do you consider post-punk, proto-goth musicians/bands to also be goth rock?
I would consider Bauhaus this, you mentioned them. But what about:
Joy Division,
Depeche Mode (2nd album onwards plateauing at Black Celebration & on),
Wire (their 2nd & 3rd albums),
The Sound,
Chameleons,
Cocteau Twins (esp their first album),
Killing Joke,
Echo & the Bunnymen (1st 4 albums),
& the Doors from the 60’s.
Most of these seem to be neglected by people who claim the goth subculture. Even though all these bands seriously influenced goth rock. Though I do notice those same people seem to retro-actively claim Bauhaus (which you mentioned), Joy Division (which I mentioned), the Cure, and Siouxsie & the Banshees.
Also the first 3 or 4 albums of Comsat Angels
Some of these bands influenced gothic rock over time (like the doors) but some are more goth adjacent (like echo and the bunnymen). I haven't met a goth today that doesn't like at least a few of the 70's/80's goth adjacent bands, so I wouldn't nessecarily say they're neglected by the community. For me, personally, I consider them to be under the goth subculture umbrella, just not gothic rock. Genres like post punk and new wave are directly related to goth rock through punk, so they're kinda like family to goth!
I also consider some of those bands that are technically post punk or new wave to be more goth than goth adjacent, like joy division or killing joke. But that's just me. I think every goth will have their own way of categorizing these bands.
@@batastrophe I really appreciate your sharing your take!
pretty much all the goths i know love depeche mode! that might be a local thing though because they were huge where i live in the 80s
@@buttershy_ ah ok, thanks for sharing. I love them too 🖤
95K Nice. You are so articulate, lovely, and ridiculously cute (16:15). I've been watching your videos for a while now, and they keep getting better.
Always trying to help with fashion, make-up, music, and just sharing.
Carry on Angela, that 100K is almost there. And deservedly so.
You're a sweetheart, thank you so much! Hopefully my next video is nice and light-hearted 🖤🖤🖤
All I have to say is once again 💯 accurate. Your Tik Tok's aren't "disturbing" because they are facts. You see it and define it just like I do as an elder goth.
We love baby bats, it doesn't matter if someone finds there way into the scene via the fashion first as long as the music is part of it.
Goths back in the day understood this. That is why when my first year of High-school I (my parents in middle school were fairly controlling with my fashion and where I was allowed to shop) plus I didn't know much about goth fashion. I was friends with the most alternative kid in my middle school, and we were bullied everyday for it, but at the time I dressed 90s skater alt with wide leg pants and anime tees because that was the most alt I was allowed and kept away from learning about alt fashion, but due to my love of horror and alt movies I discovered a lot of goth music (because movies like the Hunger, Lost boys, the crow etc) So, High-school I went to an "alternative" High-school and it was crazy, because a lot of the kids there were alt. (skaters, punks, goths) and people talked to me and wanted to be my friend and I was used to being bullied (my middle school was a performing arts school and you had to audition to get in even though it was a public school, a lot of rich kids who thought they were special/important went there and I think that was probably why it was so bad.)
So, first day I had skater kids all invited me to hang out with them, so I did. They were awesome and nice to me, probably a day or 2 later I met the goth kids and they hung out together, and they invited me to go to this coffee shop in the village not to far from our school, and we got on the subject of music, and they pretty much laughed at me, not to make fun if me but they were like "you are so goth and don't even know it" because all the music I liked. They were like "you may not dress goth but your goth" and then a few weeks later I found out one of the goth boys had a crush on me and we started dating. We sadly broke up because of other people's jealousy making our lives hard. It wasn't until after we broke up that I actually started dressing goth (not related to why I just wanted to) I went to both the Halloween store and Trash &Vaudeville, to make my first goth look, and when I put it on I felt like me, I felt prettier than I ever had previously, and I was like. "I am never going back" to dressing more normie for other people. Because I was in HS at the time I was very extreme. I would wear corset and skirts and trench coats and cloaks. I hung out with the goths, but also the skaters, and also the punks. (I used to find punk guys attractive) so I would go hang out at CBGB before the goth clubs opened. No alt person ever bullied me. It was the "normies" on the street. a lot of grown adult men would be the worst offenders at yelling at people on the street. Back then the goths got yelled at, but so did the punks, so we all had eachothers back still. Even then late 90s early 2000s there were people who would dress goth and usually goths immediately accepted them because of the fashion, but if they weren't into the music at first usually we would share the music with them. if they still weren't into it... The goths would kinda loose interest in hanging out with that person. They wouldn't bully them or anything they would just kind of be labeled a poser and we would still be friendly to them but not be close friends with them. I had friends though who were part of a lot of different alt subcultures, but most of the time I would be clubbing at the Batcave. It was a place I could hang out with my friends and instead of strangers bullying us on the street we would complement each other's outfits, and like you said, a goth look was a goth look and these "subgenes" were fluid. Sometimes the goth night had a theme and people dressed for the theme, but it would be. Today I feel like wearing a velvet dress, today I feel like PVC, today a corset. today a death hawk, today dread falls, some people did stick more to 1 style, but 90% of the people dressed for their mood, or a theme. No one stuck really to just 1 goth style, all the styles were goth, It was about expression, so you expressed the mood you were in that day, and if I pulled up my old pictures my looks would be undeniably goth but all different styles. We delt with some goth quizzers (that no one really liked) but no one in the clubs were really like "you aren't goth" I would say because misinformation on the internet people may say that about my now because they believe you have to be extreme of have white makeup (which was something I never did even as a teen) Though I have been a part of the goth scene for about 25 years now, so I usually laugh if someone tries to say that I am "not goth enough" it feels like "oh sweet child I was goth before you were born" but I would probably question myself a lot today if I were a baby bat. The misinformation is a lot.
This is why we need amazing TH-camrs like Angela to squash the misinformation. If there is a lot on Tik Tok then good for you Angela trying to fix some of that.
I feel like back in the day we had to fight the good fight on the misinformation about the scene and people we were like the 'Satanic, drug users, bad, nasty, evil, cult, murderers, lazy' etc. and we made people realize we aren't bad people and the subculture isn't bad, but that led to us not having to fix new Misinformation, like the goth scene isn't music based. If your only obstacle is "you have to like some goth music to be goth" that is a really low bar to entry. Goths used to basically live at the goth clubs. If you hate goth music you probably wouldn't have had a good time at a goth club. You dressed up, hung out with your friends, and danced to goth music. You felt at home, but I couldn't imagine feeling at home if I had hated the music. I wouldn't have wanted to go every weekend if the music wasn't my thing. The scene dies without the music. That is just a truth. People are entitled to wear whatever fashion they like, but if they aren't interested in goth in any way passed the fashion then they aren't goth. They are just someone who likes that style. There is nothing wrong with liking whatever style of fashion you like, but that doesn't mean that person is goth. People can throw a tantrum about it. That doesn't change what the subculture has always been about.
I am a goth and I still wear my black Trench coat when I feel like it,
I don't consult twitter,
I don't ask Angela if it is ok for me to wear it.
You were made to live forever, it is a little spark within you.
So when sin and death override it, how do you know?
Subcultures are starting to be perceived as a really weird mix of aesthetics and reeeaaaally watered down ideas on TikTok, you can dress alt and not be part of a subculture, and that's okay, but people just label things with ignorance and don't even bother learning about the origin of the word (and the subculture's name) they're using to name a freaking clothing style they find cool or looked at in a certain character when growing up
the absolute inability to use any sort of critical thinking this person has is painful
I never liked the ''evolution'' argument because I'm not inclined to think that something can evolve if its core is removed. Its source. And Goth culture's source is the music.
If something ''evolves'' while taking out the core it evolved out of it just becomes a different thing, for example;
R&B and Metal both came from Blues if you dig deep enough but I'm not inclined to say they're both the same because of it. Don't get me wrong I love Alicia Keys but if I listen to I don't know Death Decline or something afterwards I'm not quite inclined to think ''Oh man this Death Metal band and piano playing Soul vocalist are totally in the same culture 'cause they both came from Blues''. That'd be weird, right?
I'm being humorous and a little self-deprecating here in making my point. But said point still stands because I don't see the logic in calling something an evolution if you take out what it claims to be evolved out of.
Symphonic Metal like Epica evolved from the broader genre of Heavy Metal. They belong to the same culture because the core (Aka, Metal music) is still there. And like Metal the music genre is the core of Metal, Goth the music genre is the core of Goth as historically has been the case.
You can tell that Goth is music based because historically the music has been its most accessible aspect that kept the culture together and made thrive. It built its foundation.
At risk of tiring people by constantly comparing it with Metal but I recognize that same thing here because these are both music based subcultures, which you can tell due to music being the unifying trait all the way at the beginning of it all. If music has been what kept people together in a culture then that music has been the one that built the foundation so to speak. What logic would there then be in removing its foundation?
I cannot yes this enough! Someone had said something to me that sticks with me and they said that when you remove the core you change the resulting beast.
Aspects of social media are slowly morphing the notion of what the "subculture" is and how it got there to suit there own desires and elevate their own concerns. For them "goth" is a look and follows certain consumer trends that can easily be bought into and used to justify their status. They have little or no concern for either music or knowledge because they have so little background in either, and they can't use it to elevate their presence and social position. All that is of value to them are the things they want to talk about that validate their supposed authority as content providers. Their historical revisionism is of little concern to them. Only how they see it now matters to them.
The music was a driving force in the early 80s because there was no internet, and music was the medium with which a lot of young people identified and how they found "their tribe," - through the music. It was the mood and tone of music that was considered punk, post punk, goth, industrial, and a few other strains that we all had a passion for. Social media and the internet is focused on the visual and on status within an online community. It has gotten to the point where those in younger generations may not consider music as important as a force which binds them together.
As far as the importance of the real backgrounds goes, I recently posted this on a similar discussion; "Everything can change and evolve over time, but if the real background and sources that are influential don't matter at all, then why use the label or claim to be a part of it?"
I've been into the music since 1980, and still care enough about it to be concerned about where the subculture has gone in that time, but to many young people, that 44 year trail of knowledge is irrelevant to their own identification with current standards of appearance and present day concerns and standards.
I feel like this is happening in all “alternative” cultures. I used to see colored hair and piercings on a person and think “oh they must be into some kind of alternative music” but not anymore a lot of those people that dress like that listen to pop and hip hop :/
I would totally take a chance to try to listen to/understand the tiktoker mentioned, but the typos and clear disinterest in spelling words correctly to a degree that makes it kind of hard to even understand what they’re saying makes me stressed
I initially did give them the chance despite the way they treated me previously and They managed to be even more insulting and discriminatory.
Yes, Needed this before I went to work today 🦇❤🦇
Hope you enjoyed it!🖤
@@angelabenedict I did Indeed, Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
I started out as a metal head and i never called myself goth back then cause in my soul it didnt feel right but now that i know the difference and have been goth for almost 10 years now, calling myself goth feels safe and right.
I Love how you drop that REAL KNOWLEDGE. Sooo many people are now clamming goth or punk when back when I was coming along society was cruel to anyone that appeared different then the other’s in school & in public. Nowadays the new generation is wearing the clothes and hairstyles that now oh it’s ok to rock this or that style. But the 90s on back got no credit for truly your self.
Okay I understand. I know peoples bully at punk, gothic and other. Peoples are not nice. I don’t like bullying. Let them alone. If you don’t like them and have to stop bullying. I heard about men beat at Sofia girl and her boyfriend at night. At hospital Sofia died. It’s so sad. 👍😊🤟🏾🖤🤟🏾🦇😢📱
At the end of the video when mentioning 'going old school' it reminded me of a couple years ago I went out with some friends. Whilst there I dressed like I used to back in the 90's, just for nostalgia's sake. (I'm 44 btw) As soon as i turned up a stranger came up to me who was about my age and said I looked awesome (her actual words) But no more than 10 mins later a young female goth tried making fun of me for the way I looked. Just shows some of the mentality differences between different aged goths. Or was that just a one off experience? Hasn't happened before or since so Im not too sure tbh. Im used to people staring and scowling at me, but not other goths.
The lack of awareness this person & their friend who’s posting about you on TikTok have is insane. They immediately have decided to hint at you being transphobic, that you’re gate keeping, and that you are friends with someone who laughs at dead animals (??what??), and are calling you ableist because you liked a comment that someone made about the person being bad at using grammar. It’s crazy to me, because they’re saying it’s ableist because they’re dyslexic - it looks more like they were typing too fast, it wasn’t misspelling words, it was no spaces and wrong keys being pressed but not a misspelling. This is peak TikTok-Core, chronically online people who cannot comprehend difference in opinion, and feel the need to desperately gain validation through victimhood. So odd tbh, I seriously hope these people grow up
As someone who has been "goth" since the 2002 when I was only 16 and has only just today found out that people are saying goths are defined by music alone. I'm so baffled.
I just only found out this because I'd never heard the term Nu-goth before. So I looked into it and found this vid by a channel called Drama Kween. Sure she says a lot of positive things about not being elitist. But also says you're only goth if you listen to goth music (though not exclusivly)... So by that definition no deaf people can ever be goth. Screw that bs. Also means someone who likes darkwave and post punk but never dresses goth, would be a goth.
So, what would I be then? I have a general interest in the macabre, I wear black lipstick, eyeshadow and nail varnish, I wear black clothing, I wear a leather trench coat, I wear frock coats, I own several alchemy gothic pieces of jewellery and a fair bit of Nemesis Now décor, I've read the complete works or Poe and Byron, I've read Mary Shelleys Frankenstein, Bram Stokers Dracula, Anne Rices Vampire Chronicles, Some of my favourite movies are the likes of The Crow, The Craft, The Lost Boys, The Addams Family, pretty much every horror classic and everything by Burton. Plus the movies of the books I mentioned. I have a vintage taxidermized bat, a ravens skull, a scorpion encased in amber, a tarantula encased in resin, a framed Death's-head hawkmoth. I have a 1:1 scale 3d printed replica of my own skull. I made my own Victorian inspired "Vampire killing kit" for fun. I've attended Whitby Goth Weekend who knows how times... But I do not listen to darkwave, or deathrock, or post punk. So does that mean I'm not goth? Admittedly I don't generally call myself a goth that often. I would describe myself more as a gothic metalhead. But still.
Though I do listen to Gothic Metal, Symphonic Metal, Industrial Metal, Alt Metal, Black Metal and I have a thing for dark orchestral scores and dark classical pieces.
In answer to your question. You're a metalhead.
@@angelabenedict I am indeed. But I just don't see how being into every else goth aside from a small list of approved music genres makes me not a goth as well as a metalhead. Why doesn't gothic metal count? Its literally in the name and comes from goth rock. I don't see huge difference between them. Plus I dislike the idea that a deaf person can not be goth, which would be the case if you only define it by music. Also cybergoths are not "real goths" either then since they listen to industrial.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm a trad goth, and I can 100% see darkwave, post punk and goth rock being a defining factor for *trad* goth. And listing to deathrock being a defining thing for deathrockers. But I think a metal goth, is just as valid as a "subgenre" of goth as any other.
Can you explain to me why gothic metal is the cut off point? I mean, goth metal evolved from goth rock, goth rock evolved from post punk, post punk evolved from punk. So why does it stop at goth rock? Despite there being other genres that also evolved from goth rock that are considered goth. Like darkwave. Witch house also seems to have made the cut as goth music, despite being new. Where as gothic metal has been around since the early 90's with bands like Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride. Paradise Lost being actually formed in 88. It has all the same hallmarks of goth that all the other approved genres have.
It seems arbitrary to me.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop Ask any seasoned metalhead and they'll tell you - because Gothic Metal is a subgenre of metal. Gothic is being used as the descriptor of the type of metal. Goth = Music, Gothic = Descriptor.
@@angelabenedict I'm almost 40 and I've been into metal since I was a tween. I *am* a seasoned metalhead. Also Goth Rock is a derived from Post-Punk, which is a subgenre of Punk, which is a derived of Rock. Metal is also derived from Rock and Punk. You also avoided my question. Why is Gothic Metal the cut off point? Your point about goth vs gothic is invalid as Goth Rock is also (and originally) known as Gothic Rock, so its also a descriptor. The term Goth itself is also just Gothic shortened.
Every genre of "Goth" music has the same hallmarks that define them as Gothic Music. Minor key, melancholy melodies, haunting atmosphere, dark themes, sometime references to gothic literature.
Add New Wave to the formula and you get Darkwave, which is approved as Goth. Add Post-Punk to the formula and you get Gothic Rock, which is approved as Goth. Add horror and theatrics to the formula and you get Deathrock, which is approved as Goth. Add trap and you get Witch House, which is approved as Goth. So why is it when you add metal to the exact same formula that unites all the others as "Goth", which is also derived from the same Punk and Rock origins as Goth Rock, its somehow, NOT Goth? Despite having every single hallmark that defines and unifies other genres of Goth. The literal only difference between Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal is that the composition is heavier.
And as I said, by your definition, no one born Deaf can ever be Goth. An ableist stance that I vehemently oppose. Maybe its just because I'm British. The goth scene here isn't that divided.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop It would only be ableist to say that someone who is deaf cannot dress how they want or like any of the things you mention. That WOULD be ableist! But music-based subcultures exist for a reason and always have. Saying someone is goth because they like goth music is the same as saying someone who likes metal is a metalhead. If I went to metal events and called myself a metalhead even though I don't like metal, I would get weird looks. Same concept. No one is saying that goths own all things dark and macabre. Everyone should be free to like what they like without reservations! Clarifying goth as a music subculture helps keep alive that aspect of it that we love (goth clubs and music etc). I hope that clears it up some; I say all this with respect and love 🖤
I got this for years I'm still the same person I just don't appear that way anymore. I've had my hair set on fire I've had bottles thrown at me etc I agree it has to stop
Omg, that's awful Like actually horrific that you were treated this way. I'm so sorry you went through that.
The music is the soul of many subcultures. If you don't like the music, then you don't like the soul of that subculture. You can't join the Kawaii subculture and think that j-pop music is trash but only like the fashion. You can't be part of the street fashion subculture and not like hip hop. It makes no sense. Music is the soul.
Person confused the goth subculture and gothic art, and quadrupled down.
Dug their heels in real deep on that one.
@@angelabenedict They can stay stuck there
I appreciate all of your videos
Thank you!
Idk if this has been brought up already, but my theory is that this is an argument that will always happen the most on whatever social media platform is more popular with younger folks. Used to be youtube, now it's tiktok. That's where you'll find the largest crowd of people that are not really interested in the subculture and will grow out of it. The ones that stay will continue spreading good info on tiktok. Then another platform will emerge and it'll happen all over again
I think what really didn't help was how goths were typically portrayed in TV and movies. It was usually a girl at school that wore all black and was there to be creepy and scare people. She'd just show up and everyone would gasp in fear.
There was never mention of the music. The character or sometimes characters were there to be a joke.
So then if someone wore all black in real life. They were assumed to be goth even though they may have never identified as one. And I went to high school in the 00s and there were certainly kidd who dressed "goth" to be the scary different kid. But I think it was from watching TV and seeing those characters.
In the late 00s I was into emo. Everyone outside the emo scene said I was a goth. (Although to be fair I'd insist I wasn't emo... but I also didn't claim to be a goth).
Now people call dressing witchy goth even though they may not listen to the music.
Do you remember back years ago there was an elitist that used to bully you?? he said you weren't goth, or goth enough, now even this is evolving into a different way of bulling! Why can't people accept what we all belong to a community and enjoy being together? They're always trying to separate and make people feel bad about themselves :(
No I don't! I did get some bullying back in the day when I first started my channel when the only real exposure people had to goth was IBF So they would see that style and associated with goth and anyone that didn't fit that aesthetic they would call fake. The majority I got it from were women, there were men as well but there wasn't any one in particular that stood out, they would just leave nasty comments and be on their way.
how did they even win a copyright strike when you used their video for commentary? it's literally transformative media. but they get to just run their mouth about you on their platform? make it make sense
Easy, they made it their life's work to create content off of conflict that they themselves create alongside A very fragile ego meaning, they can dish it out but they can't take it. This has caused them to learn how to silence people when they're not part of their echo chamber.
@@angelabenedict i continue to be impressed by your patience and willing to still try to educate people when they can get away with spewing the most incorrect shit with their whole chest
It's very easy. TH-cams copy right system is extremely broken. Angela is right. Cause a fight. People defend themselves using a clip from said video. Claim copy right claim. Make your own one-sided video. Claiming victimhood.
@@bluephoeenix i remember seeing someone copying a person's whole channel, reuploading their videos as their own and when the original channel claimed copyright, the imposter channel used their personal information listed in the complaint to doxx them. idk if youtube still makes you give out personal info to do that anymore, but you're right, it's so broken on here
Please visit Portland, OR! We'd love to take you to dinner at Raven's Manor with a follow up visit to Coffin Club.
We love you and your channel. Bullying is not goth. The beauty of this subculture is that it is so very welcoming to everyone. Gay, straight, black, white, big, small, etc. Just enjoy the music! Fashion is fun but it's such a small component to this subculture.
Take the baby bats under your dark, leathery wings and introduce them to this amazing subculture. No bullying! Xoxo Angela!
Tik Tok sucks....so glad I don't have it.....
I say look at the age of the person saying baby bats are being bullied, because, these days giving advice, constructive criticism or even speaking of our personal progression is now taken as a micro-aggression ie: bully or passive bullying. It's so bizarre to me. I'm an oldie, knocking on the door of 60. I started out as "punk" that migrated to "goth" as a result of my taste in literature that coupled with my musical influences. It became an external aesthetic of my deeply held interests. As time went on, as it does, my external aesthetic changed, improved, dulled or matured. Marriage, motherhood, divorce, relocation, etc. life experience will have an influence on your style or one's attitudes, but bullying is not an attribute I'd ever expect from a Goth. Just my 2 cents.
Believe me, I know exactly what you're talking about. We come from a generation where we had to take accountability for our words and our behavior. Anything we did or said would find its way back to our front door in a face-to-face confrontation in less than one business day. That's why there was much less shit talking back in the day. Nowadays, given the rise of social media and texting, there is an innate lack of accountability because people can say things while hiding and never have to be held accountable for their words. I remember actual gatekeeping, actual elitists. We called them pretentious because elitist was far too dramatic - but they would corner young goths that were new to the club and just lay into them with an aggressive interrogation in such a Socratic way that they somehow got you to inadvertently call yourself a poseur.
Keep it up Angela!
I admire your strenght and compassion! ❤️
I'm not on tick tok at all, but judging from my daughters reactions to some of it it's a sespool (did I spell that right?! You know what I meen, a stinking pond of gue that probably belongs in a special facility for waste disposal and cleaning).
She tried to find good goth content creators, but finaly gave up and filled her fy-page with funny kittens and dogs that forgets how to dog.
Between horror gaming and real life board games and DnD
(I nudge her in your direction btw)
You're a really great parent to be on top of your daughter's social media consumption. The things that they can be exposed to that can really impact their mental health can be quite detrimental. It really takes quite a lot of effort to custom craft your FYP page to only show you the things that you genuinely enjoy and even then they still manage to throw in a jump scare video which is something deeply disturbing like real life tragedies caught on camera or something sleep hauntingly depraved. You are doing the right thing by not being on that site, I find myself there because for some reason in my twisted brain I feel like I have to do it.
@@angelabenedict I've got a great kid! My "little" (she's turning 15 this September) rascal has always been smart and we always kept an open dialogue about things.
Hopefully she comes to me with all her problems and the good things to.
And she does.
She talks to me if there is any problems on line, she report and block creepy people and so on.
She never share any personal information and so on.
(She doesn't even have any pictures of her face on her IG, which is private btw).
So well.....I'm fiercly proud of her!
Saying ' Im a goth, but never listen to goth music' is like saying 'I am a christian, but dont read the bible'. If you dont relate to the source, why do you even wanna be called goth?
It's a bizarre concept and some of the ones who feel this way are quite young and don't know any better but they learn as they get older some of them dig their heels in or are just I know it all.
I’m getting bullied on TH-cam so bullying is on all sights and TH-cam does nothing about it….. They make up lies about me and takes everything out of context. They also do this to other people they are scary people also they have 3 channels and pretend to be different people when they are one person who never shows themselves and uses voice changers . Sorry you having this problem too…
That's terrible! What are they saying to you?
@@angelabenedict I cover Eugenia Cooney and Jeffree Star and was a mod in ohlordyits jordy channel and they bullied him to unmod me and started making horrible videos about me TH-cam does nothing to remove their evil videos. I cover these people for those who don’t have TikTok and just post them but what they do is make fun of these people they also never show themselves on videos and use voice changers . Ty for listening I’m sorry you had to deal with bullying too
I'm glad there's a channel about goths on TH-cam
Hi is it right to get inspiration from people to create different outfits
But I understand tictok
Inspiration can come from anywhere. There's no shame in where it comes from. If it inspires you it inspires you!
@angelabenedict I used to follow rosie pinipy and simplespooky but they have great outfits
Do you follow them .
@angelabenedict do you follow simplespooky and Rosie pinipy I followed them on social media's but they blocked can you give me tips how to get passed people blocking .
I love what you do because you are excellent at it. Im Goth in the music but not in my style. I lie in the shadows and absorb.
Thank you!
Cheekbone Angela..catching up on a Weds...a rainy Weds.. with such an animated title, Im eager.
Of course nobody is ‘bullying baby bats’ I still go to Goth gigs and events all the time here in the UK including my regular Goth/Darkwave night ‘Ascension’ here in Edinburgh and the idea that there are ‘Elders’ ganging up and bullying baby bats is ridiculous. Everybody is there to socialise, dance and enjoy the music! At the end of the day the people who think they are being bullied are people who are not in the subculture, they are presumably people that do not go to any clubs, gigs, events of festivals and have no love at all for any of the music played there and the bullying ( if it even exists!) is probably nothing more than having it pointed out that the sub culture actually exists! The so called ‘gatekeepers’ are there to show you were the gate is and welcome you in, just because they point out you are at the wrong gate doesn’t mean they are excluding you! As for these online weirdos, I’m reminded of the old saying, don’t wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!
I know I might be late to this but the toxicity of tiktok as a whole is awful I hope these sad, and misreable people find a way to cope with what ever the fuck is going on in their life I really hope this toxicity doesnt push babybats away from this culture bc its really fucking cool as a babybat myself I was almost pushed away because I kept seeing this is how to be goth this is how to dress you should only listen to goth 24/7 etc. and then i got confused but started to realize hey as long as you like the music, you're goth
I go to tiktok to find goth music, I come across some cool songs there, if I want to know more about goths, I go to TH-cam