Donna's commitment to the bit is above and beyond here. Josh is a master of snark and sarcasm but even he fell for this amazing performance. "The owner's manual" was the moment Josh was probably about to flip out before Donna drops "No you idiot, I need a shower." Iconic.
This is one of my favourite scenes. We often see Josh as the "doer"- here he demonstrates the intellectual underpinnings that got him there. The first time I heard this I remember thinking what a privilege it would be to sit through classes at Harvard and just...absorb! Then I found a library and found I could do it on my own :)
American public libraries are truly one of the least-respected resources. If you didn't need a college degree to get the job of your choice, you could get an education for free from a library. we take it for granted unless we've traveled to other countries where access is limited by censorship. (not that libraries in certain states are suffering the burden of censorshp, i know).
@@alertgasper Unfortunately it's not just by censorship but also by neglect and apathy in some cases. I live in India. I remember when, as a child I could go to a public library with an extensive, international children's section. I read Verne, Jack London, the Asterix comics and a bunch of other things which first introduced me to other cultures and sparked my reading habit. When I returned to India two decades later, the country's population, GDP and stature had all grown leaps and bounds, but the libraries had deteriorated. Today, with reading anyway declining among youth, libraries are pretty much gone, with a few exceptions. Really sad.
@@ninadbhave5133Very true. around here at least, a public library's possibilities can depend on the head librarian. i've seen new ones arrive and make a small library bloom.
You're the morons who kept voting in the swamp. You voted for bush and that scumbag obama. We the People had enough of your idiocy so we elected the only person running who could put the brakes in the jackassery of people like you. You did this. Be a man and own up to it.
@@markarmage3776 It was never about policy. He just has joined the cult of trump. Its pretty typical for dictators to form a cult of personality, or people that believe that the dictator was sent by the gods to save the country.
@@JusticeFrogs So you have no argument at all, kid? I was against the person who write the comment, don't assume that people are as stupid as you. Dictator? Cult? All of those words are your delusion to cover up the fact that you useless unemployed morons are deadweight of society and you're having a President that does not support those things. Go back to school, idiot.
Some snippets of the West Wing like this one should be required viewing for every voter everywhere. Intelligence is a good thing. Curiosity is a good thing.
@Dead Meme So that means that it's ok to be stupid? Is it so wrong to expect our elected officials to be the best and the brightest? Or at least know how to use the English language properly?
@@DarrylJHenderson "Is it so wrong to expect our elected officials to be the best and the brightest?" - Not at all. You can only hope and pray our elected officials are the "best and brightest", and do your best to see that happens. But you're a complete moron once you drink the kool-aid and believe, even for a moment, that they actually *are*, especially when the only source of their truth is their own mouths or a media juggernaut. Accountability must be constant, incessant, and it must be absolutely non-partisan.
This is an important scene especially in today's in era where there are so many motivators , influencers and gurus. People make millions by feeding these mcnuggets and guide them wrong direction without understanding the issues.
Scenes like this make me want to cry in despair, given the current sad state of affairs. Here is Josh outraged at the notion of a President who thinks fortune cookie philosophy is eloquent, and now we've got one who doesn't read anything that isn't about himself.
Why don't you assholes have a pity party somewhere else? We the People are trying to fix what you arrogant morons did to this country. Obama is the reason we got Trump. Did you vote for obama? Of course you did. GFY
Really, and where's your source? Something you idiots never paid attention in these TV shows. The guy called the President just did everything his subordinates give him. Watch closely, national security, or speeches, even policy. Briefing? The guy understand briefing which also fits in a fortune cookie and make decisions based on what he grasp from that fortune cookie. So what's wrong with the summary?
@@theolamp5312 The reason we makes charts, idiot, it's because it's more easy to comprehend then writing. You're so smart that you took the hard way? That's what you call an idiot.
How prophetic... Art not only imitates life, but it predicts it. Who knew that a malignant narcissist could create a cult so quickly? Would any rational, reasonable, educated person think it could happen? There are none so blind as those who will not see...
@@timothy9596 The actors that played them are as aware as their characters. I think that's why the show worked so well. They believed in what they're saying with Sorkin's dialog. And these 2 have great chemistry. Their first meeting is a classic scene.
"Reach for it all not just the McNuggets" it was a metaphor but for Trump that was literal too. We all know Ritchie was a stand in for Bush, to show how dumb he was. W. looks like a genius when compared to Trump. My fear has been what comes after Trump is gone. President Marjorie Taylor Greene?
LOL. Reach for *all* of Immanuel Kant? You really want someone reaching for *all* of Plato's Republic? Like, the upper class having women in community who give them sex whenever they want it? Sounds kinda misogynist, dude, and not really what Josh's party would have been about. But then, you'd actually have to read these books to understand why you may not want to reach for *all* of it.
It’s funny because I never thought much of that line when I first watched West Wing but now that I’m thinking about it we did read Kant in philosophy 300.
Mark Fey Trump is a reality tv show president. And don't forget although he can read, he doesn't. That book would take far more effort to read, than he would be willing to give.
Bartlett ,Leo ,Ritchie and Vinnick together could not carry Trump's briefcase for animal instinct -that's why he's a real president rather than a fictional progressive one or even a republican one.
Tim Mullens Oh, give me a break, will ya? Trump is the real buffoon here. Sure, this show was pie-in-the-sky and, of course, a work of fiction. But it demonstrates what the White House could be, and should be. Do you really think Trump and his staff care about each other. Do you really think they care about you, or your family? Get a clue, pal. "The low road?" This is the real West Wing, and you voted for it!
A couple issues with this. First, "it's good to be trapped in a corner, that's when you act" has nothing to do with the Kant quote. The quote at best sounds like some bastardization of BF Skinner's behaviorism. Kant's famous line is referring to the supreme submission of the will to duty; that a moral action comes not from any ulterior motive, but solely from one's duty to act, and by extension, to act only in accordance with that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it become a universal law. Second, no first year phil student would be reading the CPrR. The foundations of the Second Critique require you to understand the First Critique, or at least reading the Groundwork on the Metaphysics of Morals. Kant is way too advanced for a first year phil student. Third, The CPrR is not M&E. The CPR is. The CPrR is moral philosophy. I'm glad that they venerated philosophy in this scene as it is often lampooned as useless or trite, of which it is neither; but I wish they had put a little more effort to get it right with Kant.
I'm not a philosophy major but I was certainly impressed that Josh's first-years were reading Kant 🤣 The "public treatment" of philosophy still leaks through in this act that is meant to somewhat give praise to it, and it vexes me to see. Reading philosophy text is not like reading Twilight or Harry Potter; just understanding the words is nowhere near enough.
Not sure why I feel the need to reply to this but....I without question remember reading Kant in my intro to philosophy class. Our textbook was something called 50 readings plus, and one of said readings was a 15 page section of Critique of Pure Reason. I knew for a fact I recognized that name, and I’ve only every taken one philosophy class in my life and I just so happened to still have my textbook and sure enough, there in the index was Immanuel Kant page 198 hahahaha. Again, not sure why I felt the need to do that, but there’s proof that freshman philosophy students definitely read Kant.
If you dwell on the detail, it will drive you nuts. There are episodes where i skipped entire scenes bc of the crap way Africa is represented in the show... the AIDS vaccine storyline is one. But the rest of the episode (Ainsley coming in for her second interview) was still great, so i watched those bits. It's a tv show. 🤷🏾♀️
@@moimeself1088 yeah there’s a lot of stupid stuff like that throughout the series that you really take seriously. One that comes to mind for me is the episode with China and the whole time there is this chess metaphor going on with the different games Bartlett is playing with the staffers. As someone who plays chess I kinda just roll my eyes at those parts because the writers are clearly just winging it.
@@vdinh143 So TH-cam didn't let me know that people replied to my comment, so this comment is 4 months old. Thanks Google. Like I said in my comment, I'm happy that at least Philosophy was venerated rather than lampooned in the show. However, I think Sorkin missed the irony of his own words. By using these famous excerpts of famous thinkers as a way to lampoon Ritchie's candidacy as trite and unoriginal, he himself has done just that by bastardizing Kant. Like, if you're going to quote a famous line from Kant, or Descartes, or Hume, then at least make Josh's reaction to the fortune cookie line fit the actual meaning of the famous line so that people understand what is meant by it. For the vast majority of people, people heard him quote that line and thought it was just some motivational speech bullshit. It's not. What Kant is saying here is among the most profound things written in the 18th century. So I just find it ironic that Josh ends up being just as guilty of being a shallow thinker as the Ritchie consultant chastising, and that's due to the sloppy writing. That's what stuck out to me the most about the scene. Oh, and you absolutely can understand Kant in a 4 hour seminar. It just has to be done by a Kant scholar. Honestly, rewatching the scene leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
May 2023… “… is it possible that we would require any less from the person sitting in the chair? The low road?” I thought no one could be worse than the last guy. How horribly wrong I was. I mourn the days when I could hope to respect and esteem our nation’s leaders. I weep for our county.
During my ethics class our professor made us read a section of ground work and metaphysics by Immanuel Kant. EXTREMELY HARD read. I read it 2 times and looked up summaries and was still puzzled. Look it up if you want a hard read.
I studied philosophy, about 20 years ago that is. I was fascinated by Kant. But it took me at least 10 reads of every single paragraph before I got a sense of maybe starting to get a sense of what he was saying. Which is exactly what Josh (and so, Sorkin) is saying here. It’s supposed to be complicated and nuanced, because our behavior is complicated and nuanced as well.
Josh: I am comforted at least in my certainty that he is doing his best to reach for all of it and not just the McNuggets. Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? The low road? I don't think it is.” Josh lacked vision. It is indeed possible.
It's 2020, and 20 years on since this was made. Couldn't possibly be more relevant. And the choices the US has.... drum roll please... Biden and Trump. #GoodLuckAmerica
"Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair - the low road? I don't think it is." If he only knew how low that road would eventually go, Josh would probably shoot himself.
I know right. We just had a recall election for the governor of California, of course I voted no, being a centrist Democrat and he's one too and doing a good job. But even the moderate guy among the Republicans -- John Cox -- was saying he was against masks and social distancing :-( It's like really, John? You're like the smartest candidate on your side, this should be a bipartisan issue, come on man! He wasn't the front runner, though. The front runner was a Trump supporter. :-( Well, I'm glad Newsom won. I don't agree with everything he does but I think for the most part he has California going in a good direction. He certainly provided leadership against covid-19 that was needed when Trump was in office, him and Cuomo of New York.
Sorry Josh. The low road is not only acceptable but actively encouraged when running as a Republican, and they despise Democrats for even acknowledging the high road exists.
Kant, (a Lutheran) valued truth over everyone and everything. He believed in moral absolutes, one of which was truth is everything and the only thing, no matter the consequences, no matter the cost, the truth must be told. This sounds morally superior and just to many, (except David Hume perhaps) and all must accept this moral and categorical imperative. Kant valued people, of course, but less than truth. So much in fact that even if you were hiding an innocent (Cindy Lou) from violence, and if the assailants asked you "Is Cindy Lou here?!" and all you would have to do is lie to ensure the innocent Cindy Lou to be safe, you Kant (pun intended). You must still tell the truth, even though the innocent Cindy Lou (and possibly you) would be harmed or even klled. People only have value, (according to Kant) if the truth always takes precedence. If you want the counter-argument to Kant's categorical imperative, David Hume would be a great place to start. You may read one disproved the other, but the truth is, the argument still rages today... we just call it something else.
I think Josh was a little put off by the guy speaking _only_ in slogans, with no substance behind it. Ritchie -- who probably couldn't _spell_ syllogism, much less form one -- was an empty suit held upright by simplistic philosophy and empty platitudes.
...Which followed a book called "The Audacity of Hope" and another called "Dreams of My Father". Love him or hate him (or both, and there are reasons for both), there's no question that Barack Obama is capable of abstract thought and nuance. That's not the kind of person being discussed here.
"Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair?" Yup. "The low road?" Yup. "I don't think it is." Ahh Josh, your faith and optimism in America is so adorable. We didn't just elect someone as dumb as Rob Ritchie. We elected someone even dumber. I'll bet Ritchie at least heard of Emmanuel Kant. I bet Trump thinks Kant is a Star Trek villain.
Ritchie was Dan quayle. While Trump is Quayle lite with a side of sinister. It was Quayle who Pence reached out to for advice over counting the electors.
jordan peterson, elon musk, joe rogan and everybody else like em. its what tiktok made us 60sec attention span and taking arguments on face value from the people you worship for no good reason
3:24 - Help Please..... Q: What is the purpose of the phrase "the low road" in the question? It seems the question was complete at the word "chair". Grammatically it doesn't seem to make sense. (after talking about how president probably reaches for all of Kant's wisdom not just the McNuggets).... "is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair, the low road? I don't think it is."
It's possible that he meant something along the lines of "would we want someone in the Oval Office, who when faced with a crisis, looks for the easy option, the one that requires the least effort to think about and do, rather than the harder, high ideal". Remember he is talking about a man running for the office of President, who is using phrases he has plagerised from others and hoping no-one will notice - i.e. rather than taking the high road (thinking for himself, the hard option) he is taking the low road (stealing ideas from others, the easy/lazy option)
In answer to your question about the structure of Josh's question, I think the phrase "the low road" is a restatement or an example given of "requiring anything less", essentially a more direct restatement of the more abstract terminology. Something like: "Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? To accept the low road?"
I would pay good money to have Josh Lyman, Sam Seaborn and Toby Ziegler walk into the current WH and start cleaning house... oh if only they really existed - my liberal wet dream come to life. Throw in CJ, Anisley and Abbey Bartlet … now that would be something to see
Throw in the ghost of Leo and I'd be on my knees bawling like in that picture where apparently Jesus wrote the Constitution. And oh yeah, Fitz-wallace too.
It's just that; a dream. None of the recent Democrats in the Executive branch had this level of sophistication or dignity. They are petty, venal politicians and nothing more
They would loose, to your kind of idiot, The West Wing wit and rhetoric is only smart because they'r'e countered with equally average arguments, Sorkin can only write what he knows. Give Ben Shapiro a few minutes and he'll wipe the floor with Seaborn, Ziegler or Lyman. It's necessary to understand Kant? How about the simple argument that millions of philosophy students who studied Kant and can't figure out a thing because simply enough, studying Kant is a waste of time? Because Kant's theory itself, sometimes can not be used to apply into daily lives and daily matters, therefore only parts of his theory is used to make a new set of theory, which is called common sense and knowledge. Stop overrating the nonsense. Go ahead, explain the argument of transcendental idealism, we smart people will spend our actual time doing actual stuff that actually matter such as using that summarized concept to create wealth and values for the society.
They are real. You are that person. You just need to walk in a say this is important, will you let me do this if it will go others do this I've got a sign out front that says I'll be here for the repercussions. People who tell you to believe in getting something done by building walls and making deals to look over things isn't the same as learning about what it's like to paint human hope onto a killer of people of all things. Why the worst things happen. Why are the going to happen forever if you're not there to step into a place and say this is better because I believe in even you a killer of humans. If the white house won't do it. If people break the law. Paint the law as a sign of hope to stay at home and be someone who doesn't depend on the bullshit. You're here for a long time. Someone I love said that to me. Please go ahead and respond if you do dare to.
Immanual Kant. Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals. Being well read is not necessary in some jobs. You want a diet Coke with those McNuggets President Trump? I have a masters in Waiting Examiners. No. Wait. The Masters are Looking at my CITY AND GUILDS Waiting examination qualifications. Never read Immanual Kant. But Icahn, Carl. No offence billionaires boy club
"Understanding these thinkers"? Hey idiot, they think the same thing that people think without knowing them, study! If you're smart, you can rebuild and deduct every single part of Greek or modern philosophy in the matter of minutes. Try to think and stop quoting somebody. There are certain values that are correct, and it doesn't help you no matter how much you "understand" why those are correct. Here's an actual example and not a trash opinion like yours. A person kills a lot of people, there's no way to charge him or put him on trial, what do you do? The philosophers like Bartlet in the show can't make a decision. A smart person, knows that no matter how much you dive into the matter, you won't be able to find any better solution than what you can actually do, which is get rid of the killer through an "illegal" process because the "legal" term is a myth created by people to sustain an illusion of order. Clear? There's a reason people take the quote, it's everything you need to know from their whole chain of reasoning. Every thesis, every law of nature is just assumption by human that those are the correct ones because they can be used to explain certain aspect of nature, that's why laws can be changed, and sometimes even found out to be wrong. So yeah, study, kid!
Give a conservative a book and he can take it out of context and build a campaign out of it. Everything from the Bible to the Constitution to Squid Game.
Man alive! This show brainwashed me so. Looking back I wish I hadn't absorbed the fortune cookie wisdom that Aaron Sorkin handed out so freely and actually thought deeply about political philosophy. Seeing California in ruins and Europe in disarray, the entire plan was to do to Americans what was done to the jews: encourage them to be unfoundedly self-loathing... They seemed to capture most of the cliche philosophical ironies, but for those who aren't aware: "I took the one less traveled. And that has made all the difference", was meant ironically as well. The road is something, but make sure you leave some freaking tracks will ya? Tick effing tock.
california in ruins? it's the greatest state in the union and always will be. you haven't learned to think for yourself if you're buying that pathetic lie; you just switched fortune cookie makers.
“Why did Frost say that?” “He was being ironic.” No, he wasn’t. The neighbor says it. Frost argues against it the WHOLE POEM. He wasn’t being ironic, he presented it as a declaration against which he argued. F me - even when trying to be witty it’s just inexcusably pretentiously missing the point. Kind of makes you laugh, though.
Donna's commitment to the bit is above and beyond here. Josh is a master of snark and sarcasm but even he fell for this amazing performance. "The owner's manual" was the moment Josh was probably about to flip out before Donna drops "No you idiot, I need a shower." Iconic.
and then after was probably the moment he knew he needed to marry her XD
Shame the actress did not have more major roles after WW.
My favorite part of this bit is the deadpan delivery. "I located the light switch." "Could you locate it again?"
"An order form to buy a copy of 'Owning Yourself', a follow-up to the worldwide best-seller..."
"'Leasing Yourself'?..."
Janel Maloney was phenomenal in the entire series. Grossly overlooked.
"reaching for all of it and not just the McNuggets"....one of the most underrated lines from this show and relevant for all of us in day-to-day life!
Not its even more accurate. Well maybe its burger king not mcdonalds
You have no idea how low a road we’ve walked my friend.
BTW, one of the funniest lines in the entire series... "No, you idiot, I need a shower!"
Anyone else rewatching for comfort during these dark times?
Yes! It gives me hope!
I think all of us.
what is dark about these times?
River Smith You bet
Yes. Things are not so great in Canada either right now.
This is one of my favourite scenes. We often see Josh as the "doer"- here he demonstrates the intellectual underpinnings that got him there. The first time I heard this I remember thinking what a privilege it would be to sit through classes at Harvard and just...absorb! Then I found a library and found I could do it on my own :)
There's another episode where Josh states that his IQ "doesn't break the bank" but you can see here that he's selling himself short
You can watch a series of lectures on Justice from Harvard here!
th-cam.com/video/kBdfcR-8hEY/w-d-xo.html
American public libraries are truly one of the least-respected resources. If you didn't need a college degree to get the job of your choice, you could get an education for free from a library. we take it for granted unless we've traveled to other countries where access is limited by censorship.
(not that libraries in certain states are suffering the burden of censorshp, i know).
@@alertgasper Unfortunately it's not just by censorship but also by neglect and apathy in some cases. I live in India. I remember when, as a child I could go to a public library with an extensive, international children's section. I read Verne, Jack London, the Asterix comics and a bunch of other things which first introduced me to other cultures and sparked my reading habit. When I returned to India two decades later, the country's population, GDP and stature had all grown leaps and bounds, but the libraries had deteriorated. Today, with reading anyway declining among youth, libraries are pretty much gone, with a few exceptions. Really sad.
@@ninadbhave5133Very true. around here at least, a public library's possibilities can depend on the head librarian. i've seen new ones arrive and make a small library bloom.
"Good writers borrow from other writers. Great writers steal from them outright." ~Aaron Sorkin
Was he "borrowing" or "stealing" from Picasso? Or from T.S. Elliot, who Picasso had stolen that line from?
Is it possible to 'touché' oneself?
Actually, don't answer that...
As creators, we’re only as good as the obscurity of the references we steal from. - Matt Colville
Aaron Sorkin steals from himself!
@@flankspeed lol
Donna : "I located the light switch"..
Josh : "Can you locate it again?"
Dear God. Is there anyone who can watch this and not hang their head in despair? Talk about the "low road". We're living it every day.
Low road? Bullshit, we're in below the fucking subway at this point.
You're the morons who kept voting in the swamp. You voted for bush and that scumbag obama. We the People had enough of your idiocy so we elected the only person running who could put the brakes in the jackassery of people like you. You did this. Be a man and own up to it.
You see how you don't quote any policy or values but your trash opinion?
@@markarmage3776 It was never about policy. He just has joined the cult of trump. Its pretty typical for dictators to form a cult of personality, or people that believe that the dictator was sent by the gods to save the country.
@@JusticeFrogs So you have no argument at all, kid?
I was against the person who write the comment, don't assume that people are as stupid as you.
Dictator? Cult? All of those words are your delusion to cover up the fact that you useless unemployed morons are deadweight of society and you're having a President that does not support those things. Go back to school, idiot.
Some snippets of the West Wing like this one should be required viewing for every voter everywhere. Intelligence is a good thing. Curiosity is a good thing.
The problem is most voters (both sides) have neither. Which is exactly what both sides rely upon.
reach for everything, and watch the whole show, not just the McNuggets.
@Dead Meme So that means that it's ok to be stupid? Is it so wrong to expect our elected officials to be the best and the brightest? Or at least know how to use the English language properly?
@@DarrylJHenderson "Is it so wrong to expect our elected officials to be the best and the brightest?" - Not at all. You can only hope and pray our elected officials are the "best and brightest", and do your best to see that happens. But you're a complete moron once you drink the kool-aid and believe, even for a moment, that they actually *are*, especially when the only source of their truth is their own mouths or a media juggernaut. Accountability must be constant, incessant, and it must be absolutely non-partisan.
@Dead Meme then they should try harder to get out of their echo chambers. Our country depends on that.
Josh: "You've just got a mouthful of wise-ass today, don't you?"
Marv Albert: "What?"
This is an important scene especially in today's in era where there are so many motivators , influencers and gurus.
People make millions by feeding these mcnuggets and guide them wrong direction without understanding the issues.
"Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair?"
America from 2016 to 2020 would like a word.
From the looks of it 2024 to 2028 is a real possibility
America from 92 to 24 lol
Man, this show was so smart and sharp.
Watching this two days after the 2020 election (and it's still too close to call) and wishing we had more people willing to think the long thoughts.
Great writing! One of a long list of great scenes
Scenes like this make me want to cry in despair, given the current sad state of affairs. Here is Josh outraged at the notion of a President who thinks fortune cookie philosophy is eloquent, and now we've got one who doesn't read anything that isn't about himself.
DJT doesn't even read about himself. He needs charts, photos, and videos to understand anything. Then, he discards what he doesn't like.
@@theolamp5312 and he's still more awesome than the effete pseudo-intellectual Obama
Why don't you assholes have a pity party somewhere else? We the People are trying to fix what you arrogant morons did to this country. Obama is the reason we got Trump. Did you vote for obama? Of course you did. GFY
Really, and where's your source? Something you idiots never paid attention in these TV shows. The guy called the President just did everything his subordinates give him. Watch closely, national security, or speeches, even policy. Briefing? The guy understand briefing which also fits in a fortune cookie and make decisions based on what he grasp from that fortune cookie. So what's wrong with the summary?
@@theolamp5312 The reason we makes charts, idiot, it's because it's more easy to comprehend then writing. You're so smart that you took the hard way? That's what you call an idiot.
How prophetic... Art not only imitates life, but it predicts it. Who knew that a malignant narcissist could create a cult so quickly? Would any rational, reasonable, educated person think it could happen? There are none so blind as those who will not see...
I can only imagine Josh's reaction if he was a real person and saw Trump get elected President. Toby's reaction would have been crazy too.
Both their heads would have exploded. Which was almost the case for everyone in this country that actually uses their brain.
@@timothy9596
The actors that played them are as aware as their characters. I think that's why the show worked so well. They believed in what they're saying with Sorkin's dialog. And these 2 have great chemistry. Their first meeting is a classic scene.
They'd probably just as crazy seeing what the left has become. Saying you can be whatever gender you want etc.
Its every candidate let alone president.
"Reach for it all not just the McNuggets" it was a metaphor but for Trump that was literal too.
We all know Ritchie was a stand in for Bush, to show how dumb he was.
W. looks like a genius when compared to Trump.
My fear has been what comes after Trump is gone. President Marjorie Taylor Greene?
3:24 "Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? The low road?"
Donald Trump: "Hold my beer."
To quote Shadout Mapes, "Get out of my head"!
Donald Trump: "Hold my bleach".
Donald Trump: "Hold my bleach".
02-2021 Wow!
@@stevechance150 Was Gaius Helen Mohiam, reverend mother Bene Gesserit
can we get "Reach for all of it and not just the mcNuggets on a t-shirt"
Great statement
I decided to "change my major" instead................(8^P
Is a t-shirt any better than a fortune cookie?
LOL. Reach for *all* of Immanuel Kant? You really want someone reaching for *all* of Plato's Republic? Like, the upper class having women in community who give them sex whenever they want it? Sounds kinda misogynist, dude, and not really what Josh's party would have been about. But then, you'd actually have to read these books to understand why you may not want to reach for *all* of it.
I like that idea
0:37 "Are you serious?"
"No you idiot, I need a shower!"
Tfw the president literally reach for the McNuggets.
Probably that best moment of television
Love these 2 !
It’s funny because I never thought much of that line when I first watched West Wing but now that I’m thinking about it we did read Kant in philosophy 300.
Clearly Josh had never considered the Trump Administration.
Mark Fey I don't know about you, but I'd take Richie right this second.
Unlike reality, fiction is required to make sense.
Mark Fey Trump is a reality tv show president. And don't forget although he can read, he doesn't. That book would take far more effort to read, than he would be willing to give.
Bartlett ,Leo ,Ritchie and Vinnick together could not carry Trump's briefcase for animal instinct -that's why he's a real president rather than a fictional progressive one or even a republican one.
Tim Mullens
Oh, give me a break, will ya? Trump is the real buffoon here.
Sure, this show was pie-in-the-sky and, of course, a work of fiction.
But it demonstrates what the White House could be, and should be.
Do you really think Trump and his staff care about each other. Do you really think they care about you, or your family? Get a clue, pal.
"The low road?" This is the real West Wing, and you voted for it!
Brilliant speech by Josh.
Josh: anyone ask you out?
Donna: *rolls eyes*
Josh: ... Donna I’m serious...
"Reach for all of it and not just the McNuggets..." based on the amount of meme based politics I see going around, I think that ship has sailed.
This is the scene. ❤
You've turned being disengaged into a zen-like thing... Boy, I don't know...
A couple issues with this.
First, "it's good to be trapped in a corner, that's when you act" has nothing to do with the Kant quote. The quote at best sounds like some bastardization of BF Skinner's behaviorism. Kant's famous line is referring to the supreme submission of the will to duty; that a moral action comes not from any ulterior motive, but solely from one's duty to act, and by extension, to act only in accordance with that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it become a universal law.
Second, no first year phil student would be reading the CPrR. The foundations of the Second Critique require you to understand the First Critique, or at least reading the Groundwork on the Metaphysics of Morals. Kant is way too advanced for a first year phil student.
Third, The CPrR is not M&E. The CPR is. The CPrR is moral philosophy.
I'm glad that they venerated philosophy in this scene as it is often lampooned as useless or trite, of which it is neither; but I wish they had put a little more effort to get it right with Kant.
I'm not a philosophy major but I was certainly impressed that Josh's first-years were reading Kant 🤣
The "public treatment" of philosophy still leaks through in this act that is meant to somewhat give praise to it, and it vexes me to see.
Reading philosophy text is not like reading Twilight or Harry Potter; just understanding the words is nowhere near enough.
Not sure why I feel the need to reply to this but....I without question remember reading Kant in my intro to philosophy class. Our textbook was something called 50 readings plus, and one of said readings was a 15 page section of Critique of Pure Reason.
I knew for a fact I recognized that name, and I’ve only every taken one philosophy class in my life and I just so happened to still have my textbook and sure enough, there in the index was Immanuel Kant page 198 hahahaha.
Again, not sure why I felt the need to do that, but there’s proof that freshman philosophy students definitely read Kant.
If you dwell on the detail, it will drive you nuts. There are episodes where i skipped entire scenes bc of the crap way Africa is represented in the show... the AIDS vaccine storyline is one. But the rest of the episode (Ainsley coming in for her second interview) was still great, so i watched those bits. It's a tv show. 🤷🏾♀️
@@moimeself1088 yeah there’s a lot of stupid stuff like that throughout the series that you really take seriously. One that comes to mind for me is the episode with China and the whole time there is this chess metaphor going on with the different games Bartlett is playing with the staffers. As someone who plays chess I kinda just roll my eyes at those parts because the writers are clearly just winging it.
@@vdinh143 So TH-cam didn't let me know that people replied to my comment, so this comment is 4 months old. Thanks Google.
Like I said in my comment, I'm happy that at least Philosophy was venerated rather than lampooned in the show. However, I think Sorkin missed the irony of his own words. By using these famous excerpts of famous thinkers as a way to lampoon Ritchie's candidacy as trite and unoriginal, he himself has done just that by bastardizing Kant. Like, if you're going to quote a famous line from Kant, or Descartes, or Hume, then at least make Josh's reaction to the fortune cookie line fit the actual meaning of the famous line so that people understand what is meant by it.
For the vast majority of people, people heard him quote that line and thought it was just some motivational speech bullshit. It's not. What Kant is saying here is among the most profound things written in the 18th century.
So I just find it ironic that Josh ends up being just as guilty of being a shallow thinker as the Ritchie consultant chastising, and that's due to the sloppy writing. That's what stuck out to me the most about the scene.
Oh, and you absolutely can understand Kant in a 4 hour seminar. It just has to be done by a Kant scholar. Honestly, rewatching the scene leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
'Could you locate it again?'
🤣
“Could you locate it again?” was 😘👌
Required watching. It's my alternate life to sit in the corner and listen intently to these people.
"Please! It was like a meeting of the 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝐺𝑜𝑑 𝑠𝑜𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑡𝑦."
"Anybody ask you out?"
"Shut up."
LOL, that's a yes.
May 2023… “… is it possible that we would require any less from the person sitting in the chair? The low road?”
I thought no one could be worse than the last guy. How horribly wrong I was. I mourn the days when I could hope to respect and esteem our nation’s leaders. I weep for our county.
yeah buckminster because he wrote the “operating manual for the space ship earth”, i’m glad they noted that or i’d have exploded!
A Fuller explanation at last!
Clearly Josh, in his "expectations", had never contemplated a Donald Trump taking office! 🤣
During my ethics class our professor made us read a section of ground work and metaphysics by Immanuel Kant. EXTREMELY HARD read. I read it 2 times and looked up summaries and was still puzzled. Look it up if you want a hard read.
I studied philosophy, about 20 years ago that is.
I was fascinated by Kant. But it took me at least 10 reads of every single paragraph before I got a sense of maybe starting to get a sense of what he was saying.
Which is exactly what Josh (and so, Sorkin) is saying here. It’s supposed to be complicated and nuanced, because our behavior is complicated and nuanced as well.
"Hope and Change"
"Yes we can"
The only things I know about Immanuel Kant was that he was a real pissant, who was very rarely stable.
Josh, the irony from 2017-2020 is on line one for you
I was impressed that Josh could recall of that I would not have been able to.
Two years later and I bet you've tried to recall a done so well tell me I've made a mistake here
And now that we are on the lowest of low roads - Josh was right.
This became reality in 2016 with lower quality fortune cookies
"Could you locate it again?" 😂
Josh: I am comforted at least in my certainty that he is doing his best to reach for all of it and not just the McNuggets. Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? The low road? I don't think it is.”
Josh lacked vision. It is indeed possible.
Ouch!
It's 2020, and 20 years on since this was made. Couldn't possibly be more relevant. And the choices the US has.... drum roll please... Biden and Trump.
#GoodLuckAmerica
"Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair - the low road? I don't think it is."
If he only knew how low that road would eventually go, Josh would probably shoot himself.
I know right. We just had a recall election for the governor of California, of course I voted no, being a centrist Democrat and he's one too and doing a good job. But even the moderate guy among the Republicans -- John Cox -- was saying he was against masks and social distancing :-( It's like really, John? You're like the smartest candidate on your side, this should be a bipartisan issue, come on man! He wasn't the front runner, though. The front runner was a Trump supporter. :-( Well, I'm glad Newsom won. I don't agree with everything he does but I think for the most part he has California going in a good direction. He certainly provided leadership against covid-19 that was needed when Trump was in office, him and Cuomo of New York.
too soon
Nice electric bike review, lean and straight.
Josh went to both Harvard and Yale.
The 10 word answer and the fortune cookie candidate
Sorkin always gave Republicans far more credit than they ever deserved.
"Don't talk about Fern!" ;)
Sorry Josh.
The low road is not only acceptable but actively encouraged when running as a Republican, and they despise Democrats for even acknowledging the high road exists.
Here in 2020...
Man have we gone the low road now.
Hope and change
Like a good neighbor, stay over there.
wow it's like he's talking about trump. and yeah, we've sunk that low.
Trump's actively worse than the idea behind Ritchie....
Trump doesn't even reach for the McNuggets.
"a guy named fern?"
Short for Fernando?
Watching this after 6/1.. ow
Kant, (a Lutheran) valued truth over everyone and everything. He believed in moral absolutes, one of which was truth is everything and the only thing, no matter the consequences, no matter the cost, the truth must be told. This sounds morally superior and just to many, (except David Hume perhaps) and all must accept this moral and categorical imperative. Kant valued people, of course, but less than truth. So much in fact that even if you were hiding an innocent (Cindy Lou) from violence, and if the assailants asked you "Is Cindy Lou here?!" and all you would have to do is lie to ensure the innocent Cindy Lou to be safe, you Kant (pun intended). You must still tell the truth, even though the innocent Cindy Lou (and possibly you) would be harmed or even klled. People only have value, (according to Kant) if the truth always takes precedence. If you want the counter-argument to Kant's categorical imperative, David Hume would be a great place to start. You may read one disproved the other, but the truth is, the argument still rages today... we just call it something else.
These are 2 people who are meant for each other but would end up dialling 9-1-1
I believe in hope - yeah, I vaguely remember this campaign slogan that was "hope & change"...
I think Josh was a little put off by the guy speaking _only_ in slogans, with no substance behind it.
Ritchie -- who probably couldn't _spell_ syllogism, much less form one -- was an empty suit held upright by simplistic philosophy and empty platitudes.
...Which followed a book called "The Audacity of Hope" and another called "Dreams of My Father".
Love him or hate him (or both, and there are reasons for both), there's no question that Barack Obama is capable of abstract thought and nuance. That's not the kind of person being discussed here.
"Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair?" Yup. "The low road?" Yup. "I don't think it is." Ahh Josh, your faith and optimism in America is so adorable. We didn't just elect someone as dumb as Rob Ritchie. We elected someone even dumber. I'll bet Ritchie at least heard of Emmanuel Kant. I bet Trump thinks Kant is a Star Trek villain.
KAAAAAAAAAAAAANT!
"Ehh manual Kart? No, I think it's an automatic.... whatever, ask my driver." -Trump, probably
Ritchie was Dan quayle. While Trump is Quayle lite with a side of sinister. It was Quayle who Pence reached out to for advice over counting the electors.
@@marcopl17 IMO, Quayle is way more polished and educated than Trump is/was, and that's saying a lot.
Actually 'Emmanuelle' was a famous soft-porn film. That's who Trump would think Emmanuel Kant was......
Lauren Mancini?
Let me guess. Ritchie was supposed to be Bush
Sounds like trumpie bear to me
jordan peterson, elon musk, joe rogan and everybody else like em. its what tiktok made us 60sec attention span and taking arguments on face value from the people you worship for no good reason
Trump just had McNuggets, not a book in sight.
Boris has just secured a majority government and Trump has started talking about 2024 so I find myself here!!!.....:/
3:24 - Help Please..... Q: What is the purpose of the phrase "the low road" in the question? It seems the question was complete at the word "chair". Grammatically it doesn't seem to make sense. (after talking about how president probably reaches for all of Kant's wisdom not just the McNuggets).... "is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair, the low road? I don't think it is."
I think it means "we would be willing to require anything less [than the low road]"
It's possible that he meant something along the lines of "would we want someone in the Oval Office, who when faced with a crisis, looks for the easy option, the one that requires the least effort to think about and do, rather than the harder, high ideal". Remember he is talking about a man running for the office of President, who is using phrases he has plagerised from others and hoping no-one will notice - i.e. rather than taking the high road (thinking for himself, the hard option) he is taking the low road (stealing ideas from others, the easy/lazy option)
In answer to your question about the structure of Josh's question, I think the phrase "the low road" is a restatement or an example given of "requiring anything less", essentially a more direct restatement of the more abstract terminology. Something like: "Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? To accept the low road?"
This sound like the Obama campaign in 08? Guess they were fans of the show
This show cure republicanism.
Misunderstanding Frost's quote and disagreeing with it are not the same.
Yes, you will be willing to require less, nothing in fact, you've chosen Trump...
I would pay good money to have Josh Lyman, Sam Seaborn and Toby Ziegler walk into the current WH and start cleaning house... oh if only they really existed - my liberal wet dream come to life. Throw in CJ, Anisley and Abbey Bartlet … now that would be something to see
Throw in the ghost of Leo and I'd be on my knees bawling like in that picture where apparently Jesus wrote the Constitution. And oh yeah, Fitz-wallace too.
It's just that; a dream.
None of the recent Democrats in the Executive branch had this level of sophistication or dignity.
They are petty, venal politicians and nothing more
They would loose, to your kind of idiot, The West Wing wit and rhetoric is only smart because they'r'e countered with equally average arguments, Sorkin can only write what he knows. Give Ben Shapiro a few minutes and he'll wipe the floor with Seaborn, Ziegler or Lyman.
It's necessary to understand Kant? How about the simple argument that millions of philosophy students who studied Kant and can't figure out a thing because simply enough, studying Kant is a waste of time? Because Kant's theory itself, sometimes can not be used to apply into daily lives and daily matters, therefore only parts of his theory is used to make a new set of theory, which is called common sense and knowledge. Stop overrating the nonsense.
Go ahead, explain the argument of transcendental idealism, we smart people will spend our actual time doing actual stuff that actually matter such as using that summarized concept to create wealth and values for the society.
And here we have the conservative archetype trio: the Obama basher, the bigot, and the troll
They are real. You are that person. You just need to walk in a say this is important, will you let me do this if it will go others do this I've got a sign out front that says I'll be here for the repercussions. People who tell you to believe in getting something done by building walls and making deals to look over things isn't the same as learning about what it's like to paint human hope onto a killer of people of all things. Why the worst things happen. Why are the going to happen forever if you're not there to step into a place and say this is better because I believe in even you a killer of humans. If the white house won't do it. If people break the law. Paint the law as a sign of hope to stay at home and be someone who doesn't depend on the bullshit. You're here for a long time. Someone I love said that to me. Please go ahead and respond if you do dare to.
GOAT tv series....the most republican administration we've had but Hollywood calls them democrats, of course.
Trump did like his McNuggets
Guest Starring, Donald Trump!
THE low road ! --------Hows about the Sewer ! --------or, better known as DJT's Presidency !! ---------------------WolfSky9
2016: The year we all realized that most of America is dumb as rocks.
No offense to rocks.😄
Aaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnddddd today we have Trump. Fuck me.
Donna is way too smart, way too witty here.
Immanual Kant. Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals.
Being well read is not necessary in some jobs. You want a diet Coke with those McNuggets President Trump?
I have a masters in Waiting Examiners. No. Wait. The Masters are Looking at my CITY AND GUILDS Waiting examination qualifications.
Never read Immanual Kant. But Icahn, Carl. No offence billionaires boy club
Best reason EVER not to have trump or his kind as el prezident for life
"Understanding these thinkers"? Hey idiot, they think the same thing that people think without knowing them, study! If you're smart, you can rebuild and deduct every single part of Greek or modern philosophy in the matter of minutes. Try to think and stop quoting somebody.
There are certain values that are correct, and it doesn't help you no matter how much you "understand" why those are correct. Here's an actual example and not a trash opinion like yours. A person kills a lot of people, there's no way to charge him or put him on trial, what do you do?
The philosophers like Bartlet in the show can't make a decision. A smart person, knows that no matter how much you dive into the matter, you won't be able to find any better solution than what you can actually do, which is get rid of the killer through an "illegal" process because the "legal" term is a myth created by people to sustain an illusion of order.
Clear? There's a reason people take the quote, it's everything you need to know from their whole chain of reasoning.
Every thesis, every law of nature is just assumption by human that those are the correct ones because they can be used to explain certain aspect of nature, that's why laws can be changed, and sometimes even found out to be wrong. So yeah, study, kid!
@@markarmage3776 you're an idiot, thanks for playing.
@@JusticeFrogs Nice try, kid. Go back to school, don't drop out. Pathetic.
Republicans require much less than that. The fictional Governor Richie looks like a Fulbright Scholar next to Donald Trump.
This is why I am supporting Pete Buttigieg for President.
Oh, you poor soul. Didn't make it through school, don't give up, go back.
It is possible. His name was Trump.
Not in trumps administration
Give a conservative a book and he can take it out of context and build a campaign out of it. Everything from the Bible to the Constitution to Squid Game.
LOL. Of the three things you named, only one is a book. How embarrassing for you.
Pound sand commie
Man alive! This show brainwashed me so. Looking back I wish I hadn't absorbed the fortune cookie wisdom that Aaron Sorkin handed out so freely and actually thought deeply about political philosophy. Seeing California in ruins and Europe in disarray, the entire plan was to do to Americans what was done to the jews: encourage them to be unfoundedly self-loathing... They seemed to capture most of the cliche philosophical ironies, but for those who aren't aware: "I took the one less traveled. And that has made all the difference", was meant ironically as well. The road is something, but make sure you leave some freaking tracks will ya? Tick effing tock.
california in ruins? it's the greatest state in the union and always will be. you haven't learned to think for yourself if you're buying that pathetic lie; you just switched fortune cookie makers.
Europe in disarray? 😆🤣😆🤣😆 sure whatever
Fox news keyboard warrior 🤡
the fortune cookie candidate reaching for their McNugget soundbites ... what did they foreshadow I wonder...
And now we have Biden the sellout. And what is he thinking about everyday? Where am I and what am I signing now????
Fascism lost. Need a tampon?
“Why did Frost say that?”
“He was being ironic.”
No, he wasn’t. The neighbor says it. Frost argues against it the WHOLE POEM. He wasn’t being ironic, he presented it as a declaration against which he argued. F me - even when trying to be witty it’s just inexcusably pretentiously missing the point. Kind of makes you laugh, though.
Now imagine Josh and toby working for Hillary in 2016 or for any democrat in 2020. They would say many things about the donald, none nice
"Good fences make good neighbors"
"But boundaries keep us separated from each other."
"Yes, but they also keep the wolves out"