Welcome to the comments! Curious to hear your thoughts on the study and how you may adjust your charging methods. Also, I wanted to add some notes about manufacturers recommendations. I FULLY expect inconsistencies across the different manufacturers. Many will not banter a technical subject with you, or even myself. Keep in mind they ALL assemble someone else's battery cells. This testing is truly at a cell level AND most importantly apply across the CHEMISTRY of cell we are using. This isn't a debate of "quality" cells. It is chemistry and how that type of cell responds to its conditions. If your battery manufacturer disagrees with the study, be sure to ask for their source of testing and information. Let's make sure everyone is making educated recommendations and not based off of subjectivity or tribal knowledge. Trust, but verify. 👍
@@goodmanfishing That guy take apart the batteries and tests there BPS . Plus looks at the quality of the BPS and all the internal components. He also is doing a study on how a battery holds up outside in direct sunlight just sitting in the elements and not being taken care of . I enjoy both of your channels !
Makes sense! I was the guy that charged them after every outing!!! LOL I think I read on FB one of your comments about this a little while back and mine have been unplugged since..... I just added another 100ah so I have 36v for my trolling motor.... thought it would make my boat faster, but it really didn't.... I'm going out to the garage now and turn some stuff on and left them get down in the sweet spot.... thanks!!
I'm hard wired to charge them as soon as they get home from decades of AGM and lead acid trolling batteries. You got so much more life out of them that way. Thanks for this information.
I, am working in a moto school in Québec where we have long winter 4 year ago we change all the batterie for lithium and kept them all winter long on intelligent charger in the spring 5 months later, all the bike started but all the batterie were not able to keep there charge So we haded to change them all again only after only one year. The next winter we were advised to charge them only one time in the middle of the winter for a day only, which we did, never have a problem since They lasted. we are talking 15 Honda 500 so I completely agree on what you talking Thanks for the video from a French Canadian 👍😊
I have been following a protocol similar to what you have described. I use only the bulk charge program up to 90 percent capacity than stop. Every once in a while….I will let it charge to 100 percent. I don’t charge after an outing. I do it the day before I go fishing. On my last outing of the year, I store it for the winter without charging. I have been doing this religiously since I installed it. Time will tell…….
I purchased 3 of Litime 12v 100AH TM lihtium batteries. I spot locked for 8 plus hours with a 36v 112lb Ultrex and hardly used any percebtage of my batteries. I dropped 120lbs by switching from group 31 agm's to these Litime 100ah batteries. Great batteries at an amazing price.
I am the one that over compensated! Have 24v Ultrex, went with 2 100Ah lithiums (could have used 50Ah), 100Ah for electronics (again, 50 would work) and a lithium cranking with 120Ah storage. Thank you for the info as every other trip I charge them. Now will start letting them run down!
Bro, I was both. I would fish, come home and put it directly on the charger. And all my lithiums are 100, 2-125ah and a 135ah. Just over the last couple months I’ve started getting at least 2 trips of fishing before charging. All my fishing trips are 4-8hrs. I will definitely use this info and run with it. Thanks so much. I do believe I was using Lithium Pro LiFePo4 also and had gotten pretty frustrated with them dying and malfunctioning on me. Now I know why.
spot on! I run 3 cheap Chinese lithiums in my Ranger 521 and the manual that came with them even instructs you to store the batteries at 50%. I use a regular VOM to check my voltage . At full charge I get 13.55 VDC on all 3. After a day of fishing I get 13.3 VDC. Now I know I'm good to go for day 2. 3- 100Ah give me a solid 3 days before I charge them.
@@glenncivale6824 voltage meter doesn’t tell you much on LFP batteries as they’ll hold that 13v until the BMS shuts off. They do make inline Bluetooth and non-Bluetooth capacity monitors they’re inexpensive and work well.
Great info. I run 3 lithium batts. 2 12V 100 AMP on my Ultrex. 1 12V 100 AMP for cranking and run electronics. I charge my boat maybe once every 2-3 weeks. I’ve never had any issues with them and I always have power to run everything. I use my boat 1-2 times a week. I love these batteries, so far.
im subscribing to your channel just because of how well you laid out the details on this topic. excellent summary. I’ve caught myself doing this once in a while when i think i’ll need the capacity soon but this is a good reminder to avoid it. i also have a mower that runs on four 80-amp hour lifepo4 that i put a great amp meter on and i do a better job at managing the charging.
I had never really thought about what you're saying, but it does make sense. With SLA or AGM, you really want to charge them back to 100% as soon as you get back from a fishing trip. With LFP trolling motor batteries, you're probably better off not charging them until just a few hours before you go out and draw them back down with a day's fishing. It's just a hard habit to break, especially if your boat is set up to charge all of the batteries by just plugging in one thing. I have two 100ah batteries, for a 24v system. I have to admit, they are rarely at 50% or less, and maybe that's a problem.
Agree on it being challenging if all of your batteries are tied to one plug-in. Ideally the battery companies need to start supporting maximum charge limits and be able to regulate the SOC charge limit. Thanks!
@@goodmanfishing - I don't know how you build that into a battery, though. That kind of functionality is typically only found in your more advanced inverters, and some of the better charge controllers. I'm not aware of any battery which lets you define SOC charge limits.
I keep my boat slipped most the time. I fish often but not many 8 hr days. I usually get 12 to 15 hrs (approximately) before I charge. What worries me, I charge on a generator and that may or may not be good I don't know. I also have a balancer on my three batteries if that helps, again I don't know. Thanks for the video. PS my next trolling motor setup will be a 24 volt.
This video just cost me $20.00 I had to have that T shirt that you have on that's my boat.. Thanks great info I'm new to LifePo4 this will help my batteries last longer.
Great information. I just got lithium batteries in late spring. I’m practicing what you are saying. It takes a little to get used to not charging every time, but I’m doing it.
Excellent episode, Mister Goodman! It's about time someone stepped up and showed all of us documented proof from a reliable source how to care for our expensive lithium batteries. Thank you!
Biggest thing I had to change when I switched to lithium 3 years ago was to not charge my batteries after a day of fishing. I usually go fishing 2 to 3 times before charging them up. Charge to 80% or so then go two more trips…
Thamk you so much. I had no idea. The 8nfo that csme w mt battery said to top off EVERY time. Only had the battery for sbout 6 months, so ill go ahead and change my practices.
Great Video. New to Lithiums and LiTime. Been doing some research, think im a little.over with capacity, but run them 2 days if needed. I will look at your other vids. You have some great info, and I used to be a mechanic, just never knew whats best for LiFoP4. So. I get it. Lol. Helps me a ton. Thx again.
Awesome video, interesting info. I have an electric only setup with 36v (3×100ah AGM) 112lb Riptide in the back and 36v (3×80ah LiFePO4) 112lb Terrova on the front with voltage monitors on both. For me, a short day fishing is around 6 hours, and a long day during the summer is 12+ hrs fishing around 400 acre (electric only) reservoirs using both trolling motors. On a windy day, I'll use around 60-75%, but typically, I average right around 50-60%. I have to charge the batteries before I go fishing, or there won't be enough capacity for the next fishing trip. I fish every weekend. I plug in the chargers as soon as I get home, been doing that ever since the wet cell days. Going to be hard to break that habit and go against the manual of the lithium batteries. Those things are expensive and hope I can get several more years out of them. All that being said, your saying to not charge the batteries while stored and only charge them before you use them again. Trying to teach old dogs new tricks, this will be a hard adjustment.
Good information Thanks, my question has to do with the newer outboards with the higher output charging systems, it seems like every time you run the big motor you are topping off the lithium batteries
Agree, it does depend on the charging out put and what else you are drawing off of the cranking battery. For my lithium cranking, I usually come back with around 15-20% consumed. The charging system on my outboard isn't the highest.
Awesome to learn this! So if I only have one charger connected to the lithiums and the agm - do I need two chargers now or is there a way to easily disconnect the lithiums? How do you do this? Maybe just let the agm be charged by engine when not charging all three?
The easiest way I have come up with is to buy a simple "maintainer" and install it on the AGM battery. Plug that in when you get home. Before you go fishing, plug in the lithiums.
First, great stuff Mike. As somebody who started building lithium batteries from individual cells over 10 years ago, you’ve done a great job at explaining this stuff to folks in a way that is pretty straightforward to understand. As I skimmed through the video, I didn’t see or hear anything I disagreed with. 👏👏
Many batteries now have bluetooth that will show you the SOC. Some batteries have a screen on the top that do the same thing. for the rest, you will need to use a Shunt or Hall Effect style battery monitor to watch the current come in and out of the battery to estimate SOC.
This is all good info and thanks for that but in my 3 bank 36v setup how do I know where I'm at? I really only know when they are fully charged, degradation is not something I want but a day on the water with no battery is worse. If I check one of the three do I assume they're all at that level, is there a way to tell at the 36v end?
Assuming you aren't running bluetooth enabled batteries? They make battery monitors, a shunt or hall effect style that monitor the power going in and out of the batteries. Those are a nice indicator of SOC.
@goodmanfishing I've seen the gauge type monsters on Amazon, do I need to only monitor one of the three or all three? Correct mine are not BT. Is there something at the trolling motor I can see via 36v.
Thank you, I'm studying and learning before I jump in. This is very good information. I'm glad to have a place to get good, quality information. Keep it up,we will keep watching!
So can we charge our LiFePO4 batteries with a lead acid style charger or converter, rendering only an 80% charge, then top them up occasionally with an inexpensive, Lithium grade, 3 amp, trickle charger?
Partially charging or at least not storing them for extended periods is the message. For not storing them at high SOCs, you can run a basic maintainer on lead-acid or AGM cranking batteries. The night before the boat goes out, plug in the 4-bank. For partially charging, an outlet timer could be used to stop charging after a certain duration. This isn't fool proof, but it could be implemented. If your 100Ah batteries are at 50%, you have a 10a charger, you would turn off the charging after ~3 hours. Ultimately this information should get back to the battery manufacturers to provide their customers with more functionality in the batteries. The "bluetooth" equipped batteries are very basic. There should be target / max SOCs that can be set with occasionally charging to 100% for balancing.
How would this effect my situation. I usually fish 1 day a week, but it for 10-12 hrs. My Ionic 125ah are usually in the 40-60% range when I get home. And, yes, I'm guilty of plugging them in to have them fully charged and ready.
I've been building my own batteries for a few years now, yep I'm the guy who has over capacity, but I also will run them for several trips before I charge them.
Just charge to 14V with full absorption no harm done no matter how often you charge. Calendar aging is going to have more effect on cell life than constantly charging to 14 or 14,2V
Great info! I will definitely have to modify my practices because I’m still very much a plug in as soon as I get back kind of guy. I’m also running my Force on 24v with a heavy Ranger Z21 and 4 Garmins on a separate 100Ah - both usually get down in that 30-50% range on a tournament day.
You'll need to identify which battery chemistry you are working with. This content is LiFePO4-specific. Many bike batteries are different chemistries that are more energy dense.
So I use lithium mostly, on kayak its for electronics and on my boat for electronics and trolling motor. Now on my kayak my battery is usually discharged about 2/3 or more so I use 12Ah of an 18Ah battery. This requires me to charge before use weekly, I do leave it all week in the discharged state and charge it fully the night before. Similar situation with my trolling motor battery I know I don’t need 100Ah so I use a 50Ah as I have a smaller aluminum boat and don’t need the bigger battery. Because of this I do need to charge before a trip or I’ll be cutting it close.
How would I know what size I need for my trolling motor . I was thinking a 2 50 amp batteries my friends say get 2 100 amps I usually only fish 4 to 6 hours when we go norm
Looking at it this way seems to click for people. 1x Lead Acid Battery = ~50Ah usable Energy 1x LiFePO4 50Ah Battery = 50Ah usable Energy 1x LifePO4 100Ah Battery = 100Ah usable energy. Two *new* lead acid batteries work well for the far majority of users. That would be two 50Ah lithiums. Going to two 100Ah batteries is like running FOUR lead-acid deep cycles. That's a lot...
Many batteries now have bluetooth that will show you the SOC. Some batteries have a screen on the top that do the same thing. for the rest, you will need to use a Shunt or Hall Effect style battery monitor to watch the current come in and out of the battery to estimate SOC.
I have had a 24V LiPo4 with Terrova trolling system for less than a year. I have been charging them to 100% upon returning from a 4-6 hour river fishing trip. I am having hip replacement surgery in a week then going to Florida for two months. They are fully charged right now. How long should I let the prop rotate if I turn them on while boat is on trailer in driveway to get to 40-60%? Or should I do that at all? And is there an easy way to check % used/remaining?
The red dots are likely setup for the voltages of a lead acid or AGM, not a LiFePO4. They sell separate Hall effect or shunt style battery monitors that can be retrofit
I run Power House Lithiums 2 60aH 36V and a 16V running all my electronics an AGM X2 starting battery for my ETec 250. I run a Power Pole Charger with a Run and gun to my 16V. Lots of stuff happening but rarely have to plug in. I have my settings to shift power on the run and I keep my Lithium at 50% before shifting power. My 16V is a beast and last for 3 days with 4 big graphs and FFS so power is trickled there. Power House has a huge warranty for the first 10 years. The reason for 2 lithium 36V is basically a backup for tournament day. I had one fail on me and cost me the TOC. More of an insurance policy.
So alternator/run n gun chargers that keep your lithium batteries charged up while big motor is running are not good things to use ? Many lithium battery mfgs are now offering them.
"good" and "ideal" dont always align. They're "good" if you use a lot of energy and need to quickly replenish it while on the water. That charging profile isn't "ideal" for the batteries.
Excellent points and information! But something else to remember is that these lifepo4 cells can withstand 2,000 to 10,000 cycles, which is possibly 20 to 100 years of use! I wonder with a bit of abuse where that life cycle lands. Probably 10+ years is my guess.
Thanks! Yes, they will have a very long cycle life. As mentioned, they also experience calendar aging. In a perfect environment, they'll see about 1%/year degradation just from aging. Of course that rate will change depending on how it is treated, temperature while stored, cycled, etc.
Would the BMS system not manage the charge cycle to optimize these ranges- for example the power-pole charge? It seems logical to me that the BMS should account for this so all you have to do is plug them in and let the BMS manage the charge cycle?
With all of the bluetooth connected batteries now, they really need to add more functionality to the app. It's a missed opportunity by the manufacturers. Rather than just letting us see the status, we should be able to set charge limits and every "X" cycle let it charge to 100% to let it balance. Shouldn't be hard to do!
I use a 36 lb on my kayak powered with a 100ah battery. I drive up and down the lake for 8 to 10 hours and usually wear the battery down to between 30 and 40%. When I get back home I always bring the battery in and put it on the charger.
What does the addition of brushless trolling motors mean in this conversation. I sometimes troll for 10 hours. That used to make a dent in 31 Group AGM's. Now, with my Lithiums, I bet it hardly matters. The challange is to know you have the juice for a tough day trolling into the wind on big water under rough conditions after 'not charging' the night before. Seems like a risk tradeoff?
Exactly. Have to learn what you use. Go from there. If your at 100%, pay attention to days when you use TM most. See where you stand at night. If you got 70% remaining, after a day in high winds and current. Get the same result after 3,5,10 trips out. You know you'll go 2 days. Know exactly what your saying tho. I'm new to Lithium, but know enough about batteries in general. I'd follow his advice. Just take your time, learn what you need, before pushing the limit. I'd rather have 100% every morning. But of its hurting my batts, and I only use 25,35% the average day, I'll let it go 2 days. I'll be switching to brushless very soon, from an old 12v 35lb. Gona be a whole new learning experience for me. Can't wait to see what 2 100amp lithiums will do, with a Terrova Quest 24v. Lol I have faith. Lol
I wonder how much damage I’ve done? Charged it to 100% seventy times this summer. Now I know! I will draw it down to 50% for winter storage. Thanks for schooling us.
Are there any charges on the market that will cut off at 80%? My phone has this feature where it can stop charging at that level to protect it. It may be a good addition to an upgrade BMS feature you could control via BT.
I'm a new Lithium owner, I have 2 boats so I'm not new to anything except the Lithium batteries. My question is how do you know the state of charge to be able to keep them in the 20-80%? I have 2 lithium chargers, one mounted 10A for the trolling motor I bought with the batteries from the battery manufacturer that shows nothing, and one stand alone lithium charger that will show the state of charge when charging but it's just a blinking bar graph that I don't trust much.
Hello - You would need either bluetooth equipped batteries or a battery monitor. There are shunt or hall effect style monitors that essentially count each amp that comes in and out of the battery to determine SOC.
Hope i read the reference correctly. From the Journal you referenced it seems they put around 1400 cycles on the batteries, at 40°C the best case going from 0-25% lost around 5% of the capacity. The batteries at worse case, 75% to 100%, the batteries lost 20% of capacity. So if i put 100 cycles on my batteries per year, even if i use it in the worse case i might lose 20% over 14 years. I don't remind having to replace my batteries every 10 years. The degradation will be more due to age than cycling. I am not worried about charging to 100% before i go out. Also if i just used the batteries from 0-25% state of charge i would need at least twice the batteries i currently have. So my take from this is I would just not store the batteries at full state of charge over the months i don't use them.
Knowing that storing is any length of time I typically just charge the night before I use them. I only fish once a week but my batteries aren’t oversized so they need to be charged before a trip. Ultimately from what I’ve gathered over the last 7yrs of using Li batteries is not storing them over 80%.
If you have average size lifepo4 batteries Where are you use maybe 50% on your average trips, you would be fishing a lot go through 100 cycles in a year. That’s probably four full 8-10 hour trips a week. I use maybe 50% at the most on my batteries and I charge them after and usually it takes at least two trips if not 3 before a charge cycle is recorded. So I usually fish once a week. 52 trips a year, that’s not even 52 charge cycles. It’s more like 25 at the most. Obviously, it depends on what percentage of your batteries you go through on average. But I don’t think a charge cycle registers until you use a full 100%. So if you only use 30% it’s going to take you at least three trips before it shows you went through a charge cycle. Even if you charge every trip.
So I charge mine when I get home. I also have 2 graphs at the dash and 1 at the front with FFS on a 100ah. I try to let the battery charge for 8-12 hours sometimes closer to 24 then unplug it until I use it every Sunday. On my app when it’s charged it does get to 100% but after a day unplugged it drops to 80%. It will maintain 80% for a couple months easily. My question is should I be trying to only charge it to 80% and removing it? Most trips I come home and it’s around 40% according to the app.
Sounds like you have a good BMS that is taking care of your battery’s resting SOC on its own. I know my lithiums have a self-discharge rate at rest, and the BMS will cut that off around 80% if I recall correctly from the manufacturer info (I have no way of monitoring that). Sounds like I need to actually not worry about charging until the day before using though. Just don’t do like I did this week and fish Day 1 of our classic, then forgot to plug in that night due to some other mechanical distractions I had to take care of, then run out of juice for my graphs on Day 2 with an hour to go still…😂
Sounds like the battery is going into a storage mode and showing the 80% SOC. Even if you are coming back home at 40%, it's best to leave it there until the night before you go again and then charge it.
Great information. I’m new to all of this and have watched all of your videos on regarding lithium batteries. This winder, I will be setting up my electronics on a stand-alone lithium battery in a clean power system. I realize that I have to do draw-down calculations and observe actual operation of the system to see how my battery will perform. Do most lithium batteries with Bluetooth functionality provide the stats such as SOC to my phone so that I can monitor for proper charging? Thank you for providing us with this valuable information.
The battery manufacturer will generally provide you with the most accurate information regarding its measurements and displays if you have one that comes with it.
I tought the larger DOD the less cycles the batteries have, and also if the discharge is under 20-30% is does not even count as a cycel by some manufactors ?
Cycles are really throughput. If you discharge a battery 50% then charge it 50%, that is 1 cycle. You have moved 100% of the capacity through the battery.
When o plug my boat in it charges my 2 liths and my lead battery. Of course the starter lead acid takes longer. How can I isolate the trolling lith batteries?
Thanks for the comment! Couple of ideas... 1) Some chargers have quick connections at the battery, you can disconnect the lithiums there. 2) You could wire in a DPSP (dual pole single pole) switch inline with the charging leads. This would interrupt the charger seeing the lithiums until you are ready to charge them. 3) Install a maintainer on the lead-acid. When you get home plug in the maintainer only. The night before you go fishing, plug in your 3-bank charger. 4) If you have bluetooth equipped batteries, you can usually toggle "off" the charging input. Until the evening before.
This is awesome info! Thank you. I have a question tho. I'm planning on upgrading to a 24v trolling motor with spot lock and my lake is pretty windy on average. I was planning on a 100ah I tend to go out for most of the day. Would that be overkill?
I would expect 25+ hours of fishing out of a 100Ah at 24v. Of course it depends on the wind, size of the boat, etc. but it's quite a bit of energy. Same equivalent as four lead acid deep cycle batteries.
I have one lithium battery that runs my live scope 100 w I have three more 3,700 lead acid battery one runs the gas motor the other two trolling motor lights bilge pump aerator so if they are fully charged and I stay out at the lake for 4 to 5 hours if I'm understanding you correctly I shall be able to do this twice then give it a full charge thanks enjoyed the video.
In your opinion, if I had a 90 thrust trolling motor with 100 ah of lithium battery power , would I even need to have the mercury motor alternator attached to it ??? Some say alternators can be affected by lithium batteries!
Great information. No problem admitting I am the put on charger as soon as I get home from a trip guy, but not anymore! Any tips on how I could discharge them? I live in Wisconsin and they are now out of the boat for winter storage the next 5 months and are currently at full charge.
Trade up to a canoe or a kayak, no battery problem, no dumping oil into the lake and no noise to irritate those on shore, plus the exercise is good for you.
I just realized that my Ego batteries will start to flash green after being stored for about a month at full charge. Apparently they're self discharging, which is something I think we might see integrated into more batteries at some point.
Interesting! I'd like to see some more app functionality in these batteries. The "bluetooth" batteries are very very basic in what you can do with the connectivity.
How do you explain all the boats that sit in a marina and only go out once a month or so with the battery full all the time ,the boat beside me has done this for 10 years , I think not all lithium are made to the same standard either , I think the damage to the battery would be barely measurable
The boats at the marina aren't properly storing their batteries. The "damage" or degradation is measurable if you were to do capacity tests on the battery over time. Which is what the study did. People don't do that testing, which is okay, there are other things one can worry about. But it's not irrelevant.
I have a dumb battery (no bluetooth) and a dumb charger, so I don't have a good way to determine SOC. I typically charge up every time simply because I usually don't know how much I will need the next time out. My buddy who converted to lithium years before I did operated the same way and his battery is currently somewhere around seven years old and still retains 95+% capacity (he has a smart charger now that shows this, but didn't for many years). I bought the same battery he has (Battleborn) and I had to have it replaced under warranty after three years because it dropped to 50% capacity. I believe it went bad due to a defect and not because of how I charged it, but I can't prove that.
What about guys with the power pole charge system? Can that play a difference if it is plugged in immediately after fishing? I hear that it has some sort of draining software or something like that that keeps the batteries on a healthy cycle.
Not really. The best way to manage this is within the BMS. It should be super simple for it to charge to X% and every Nth cycle to go to 100% to balance.
Do you use spot lock allot ? I’m on spot lock a ton during a typical 6 to 8 hr fishing day . Having said that, great information on the 80 to 20 ! I’m in Florida where it’s hot ! Luckily my boat is stored in a carport in the woods . No direct sunlight and usually not over 85 to 90 degrees. What is your lithium brand of choice for trolling and do you use lithium for cranking?
I use spot-lock, but not for extended periods. I do fish in plenty of wind, however! For budget brands, I run a LiTime TM battery and dual purpose cranking battery. If you need 12v TM batteries, the Group 24 w/bluetooth is nice. th-cam.com/video/Ng_MGmNUHUo/w-d-xo.html
This one works for 12v, 24v, or 36v. It is limited to 180w regardless of voltage, but it will draw the batteries down and monitor capacity. There are high dollar pieces of equipment that a lab or battery manufacturer would use, but this is consistent and offers a good point of reference. amzn.to/4fBsoT8
Great & awesome video!!! Thanks for sharing those tips. Very helpful. I don't own any lithium batteries yet but maybe looking into getting them once the regular acid batteries run their course. Any advice for the acid batteries?? Stay Safe & God Bless!!! 🤠👍
Good info was wondering about this cause for most lipo batteries storage voltage is about 3.8 per cell. Would be cool if the battery could be placed in storage mode ….or I’d charge had a storage mode …I think my charger has an off button per battery
I really think these bluetooth equipped batteries need to step-up their user controls. Toggling storage mode would be nice. What we really need is to be able to set a maximum charge limit (like cars). Every Nth cycle it would allow it to charge to 100% and balance. Should be very simple to implement!
Ok, weekend fisherman here. 1AGM for electronics and start and 212 volt lead acid for tm, one NOCO 3 bank charger. If i wanted to go lithium for trolling, whats the best way to make this work?
The easiest installation would probably be to add a simple "maintainer" to the AGM. When you get back from fishing, plug in the maintainer. The night before you fish, plug in the NOCO and charge them all up.
I would go all lithium. Ionic makes a 125amp battery with a BMS catered to your starting motor. This is enough amps to run all your Electonics also. You then can run two 50-amp Lithium Batteries for you trolling motor. A Norco 3 bank charger would work just fine. I have been running this setup for 3 years now without any problems.
Lead acid charging habits hard to change! How do I now discharged my pair of 36V batteries? Brushless bow mount motor deployed in storage And operated for 20 hours made NO CHANGE in SOC %. 16V house battery for electronics drained to 91% (so far). Why don’t the charger and app give us an option to optimize (80-20%) the charge!!?
Running down the 36v is a bit more of a challenge. Other than an inverter or a battery tester, not many general electronics can handle 36v. It would be nice for the battery apps to manage target charge SOCs!
My lithium starter battery has 9 cycles on it after 4 years....every time I start up the big motor, it's recharging....I can't imagine how to avoid that for starter battery.
Cranking batteries certainly have a different use case, especially if it's ONLY being used for cranking. If you are using it for graphs and accessories, it may not always be at 100% when you get off the water.
The test stated they cycled the batteries 1400 times. You will never cycle your battery that much with your use case. Also, that test resulted in about an extra 20% degradation. It increased from approx 96% to 77%. So if you are only using a small percentage of your capacity, you will still have lots remaining (after 1400 cycles).
Im using roughly 20% of my 60ah lithium battery when im out one day. Usally I dont charge it until I know im having more company in the boat or if im going away for 2-3 days.
Hello my bass boat and motor 2019 my motor is f90 Yamaha it says in the manual not to use lithium batteries I still have the original AGM batteries that came with the boat I don’t know how much more time they have so I’ve been looking at lithium’s for the trolling motor and I would stay an AGM for the Yamaha it’s a 24 volt (2-12volt in series) now if have to wait to charge the lithium batteries is that going to hurt my AGM battery
I run a 125 amp lithium Ionic battery on my 2005 yamaha f150. This battery also powers 4 graphs including livescope, two aerators and 2 talons. I am on my third year without any problems. I also run 2 100-amp Ionic batteries for my trolling motor. Ionics have Bluetooth so you can monitor them. Absolutely no problems.
@@Muskyfishn84 All I can say is that I run a Lithium Ionic125ah battery on my 2004 Yamaha F150 for 3 years now without any problems. Several other anglers in the fishing club also are running the same battery powering both Merc and Yamaha newer and older without problems. Could it be the problems they are running into is from cheap Lithium Batteries with BMS systems not programmed to be starter batteries?
Two of them in the shop when I was there WERE Ionic batteries that caused the problem. It is due to the voltage being higher than lead acid and AGM, not the brand…
@@Muskyfishn84 All I can say is that there are over 6 anglers I know of who use the Ionic batteries without any problems. I am more than happy with mine and will never go back to lead acid or AGM. All I can say to you is don't use them if you don't trust them, but for my two cents worth, I think your fears are overstated and I don't believe you when you say there are two in the shop with problems caused by Ionic Batteries.
Thanks, great info. Does the charging voltage matter? I'm using a 5 amp charger at about 13.6 volts so it takes a while. I've seen people post that it needs to be 14 volts? I've seen people that say to top them off after every trip too.
Lithium like high charging rate. 15A or 20A is ideal. But a 5 or 10 will work. I've been charging mine at 10Amps and they've been great for 4 years now
It's a noco 3 bank 5a. I was going to pull the onboard and get one 10a charger 1 bank and do them separately. I'll be unable to keep charging to the exact same level unless I go 100%. You think I ought to get a 2 bank for better control. Sorry, I didn't know you replied, thanks
Yes sir. The basic way I use is one of these testers. Charge the battery and it records the wattage consumed and gives you the results. amzn.to/48P78Hv
Do any smart chargers have a charging profile option to stop at 80%? Maybe they should. It would be a PITA to constantly monitor the SOC targeting 80%. The app doesn't even have a trigger or notification alarm for 80%. Maybe it should. If your boat is stored remotely or out of bluetooth range it's impracticable. Maybe I'll have to buy new batteries a little more often. Not a big deal.
There is a big need for battery manufacturers to provide more functionality to "bluetooth" equipped batteries. There's no reason they can't internally set a target charge SOC in the app and get there.
Welcome to the comments! Curious to hear your thoughts on the study and how you may adjust your charging methods.
Also, I wanted to add some notes about manufacturers recommendations. I FULLY expect inconsistencies across the different manufacturers. Many will not banter a technical subject with you, or even myself. Keep in mind they ALL assemble someone else's battery cells. This testing is truly at a cell level AND most importantly apply across the CHEMISTRY of cell we are using. This isn't a debate of "quality" cells. It is chemistry and how that type of cell responds to its conditions.
If your battery manufacturer disagrees with the study, be sure to ask for their source of testing and information. Let's make sure everyone is making educated recommendations and not based off of subjectivity or tribal knowledge. Trust, but verify. 👍
@@goodmanfishing That guy take apart the batteries and tests there BPS . Plus looks at the quality of the BPS and all the internal components. He also is doing a study on how a battery holds up outside in direct sunlight just sitting in the elements and not being taken care of . I enjoy both of your channels !
Awesome video like always! But I do have some comments from a manufacturers stand point:) If they are welcome?
Would love you hear your thoughts 👍
Makes sense! I was the guy that charged them after every outing!!! LOL I think I read on FB one of your comments about this a little while back and mine have been unplugged since..... I just added another 100ah so I have 36v for my trolling motor.... thought it would make my boat faster, but it really didn't.... I'm going out to the garage now and turn some stuff on and left them get down in the sweet spot.... thanks!!
I'm hard wired to charge them as soon as they get home from decades of AGM and lead acid trolling batteries. You got so much more life out of them that way. Thanks for this information.
Well, if you go to lithium, I hope you change your wiring lol
I, am working in a moto school in Québec where we have long winter 4 year ago we change all the batterie for lithium and kept them all winter long on intelligent charger in the spring 5 months later, all the bike started but all the batterie were not able to keep there charge
So we haded to change them all again only after only one year.
The next winter we were advised to charge them only one time in the middle of the winter for a day only, which we did, never have a problem since
They lasted. we are talking 15 Honda 500 so I completely agree on what you talking
Thanks for the video from a French Canadian 👍😊
I have been following a protocol similar to what you have described. I use only the bulk charge program up to 90 percent capacity than stop. Every once in a while….I will let it charge to 100 percent. I don’t charge after an outing. I do it the day before I go fishing. On my last outing of the year, I store it for the winter without charging. I have been doing this religiously since I installed it. Time will tell…….
I purchased 3 of Litime 12v 100AH TM lihtium batteries. I spot locked for 8 plus hours with a 36v 112lb Ultrex and hardly used any percebtage of my batteries. I dropped 120lbs by switching from group 31 agm's to these Litime 100ah batteries. Great batteries at an amazing price.
I am the one that over compensated! Have 24v Ultrex, went with 2 100Ah lithiums (could have used 50Ah), 100Ah for electronics (again, 50 would work) and a lithium cranking with 120Ah storage.
Thank you for the info as every other trip I charge them. Now will start letting them run down!
Sounds like you've got it covered!
Bro, I was both. I would fish, come home and put it directly on the charger. And all my lithiums are 100, 2-125ah and a 135ah. Just over the last couple months I’ve started getting at least 2 trips of fishing before charging. All my fishing trips are 4-8hrs. I will definitely use this info and run with it. Thanks so much. I do believe I was using Lithium Pro LiFePo4 also and had gotten pretty frustrated with them dying and malfunctioning on me. Now I know why.
Sounds like you'll be good-to-go!
Ditto!!
spot on! I run 3 cheap Chinese lithiums in my Ranger 521 and the manual that came with them even instructs you to store the batteries at 50%. I use a regular VOM to check my voltage . At full charge I get 13.55 VDC on all 3. After a day of fishing I get 13.3 VDC. Now I know I'm good to go for day 2. 3- 100Ah give me a solid 3 days before I charge them.
@@glenncivale6824 voltage meter doesn’t tell you much on LFP batteries as they’ll hold that 13v until the BMS shuts off. They do make inline Bluetooth and non-Bluetooth capacity monitors they’re inexpensive and work well.
Great info. I run 3 lithium batts. 2 12V 100 AMP on my Ultrex. 1 12V 100 AMP for cranking and run electronics. I charge my boat maybe once every 2-3 weeks. I’ve never had any issues with them and I always have power to run everything. I use my boat 1-2 times a week. I love these batteries, so far.
Lithium is not the best choice for a start battery! They are not designed for short bursts of energy.
Well Merc told me I could and I’m using a Relion RB HB 100 that they said was ok. So far no issues
Hope the info helps!
@@brett_Thorpe it won’t hurt the engine, so Merc don’t care but it will dramatically shorten your battery life.
@ good to know. Thanks. Still better then wet cell I think
im subscribing to your channel just because of how well you laid out the details on this topic. excellent summary. I’ve caught myself doing this once in a while when i think i’ll need the capacity soon but this is a good reminder to avoid it. i also have a mower that runs on four 80-amp hour lifepo4 that i put a great amp meter on and i do a better job at managing the charging.
I had never really thought about what you're saying, but it does make sense. With SLA or AGM, you really want to charge them back to 100% as soon as you get back from a fishing trip. With LFP trolling motor batteries, you're probably better off not charging them until just a few hours before you go out and draw them back down with a day's fishing. It's just a hard habit to break, especially if your boat is set up to charge all of the batteries by just plugging in one thing.
I have two 100ah batteries, for a 24v system. I have to admit, they are rarely at 50% or less, and maybe that's a problem.
Agree on it being challenging if all of your batteries are tied to one plug-in. Ideally the battery companies need to start supporting maximum charge limits and be able to regulate the SOC charge limit.
Thanks!
@@goodmanfishing - I don't know how you build that into a battery, though. That kind of functionality is typically only found in your more advanced inverters, and some of the better charge controllers. I'm not aware of any battery which lets you define SOC charge limits.
I keep my boat slipped most the time. I fish often but not many 8 hr days. I usually get 12 to 15 hrs (approximately) before I charge. What worries me, I charge on a generator and that may or may not be good I don't know. I also have a balancer on my three batteries if that helps, again I don't know. Thanks for the video. PS my next trolling motor setup will be a 24 volt.
This video just cost me $20.00 I had to have that T shirt that you have on that's my boat.. Thanks great info I'm new to LifePo4 this will help my batteries last longer.
It's a nice shirt!
Great information. I just got lithium batteries in late spring. I’m practicing what you are saying. It takes a little to get used to not charging every time, but I’m doing it.
Nice job!
Excellent episode, Mister Goodman! It's about time someone stepped up and showed all of us documented proof from a reliable source how to care for our expensive lithium batteries. Thank you!
Glad to hear you found it helpful!
Biggest thing I had to change when I switched to lithium 3 years ago was to not charge my batteries after a day of fishing. I usually go fishing 2 to 3 times before charging them up. Charge to 80% or so then go two more trips…
Thamk you so much. I had no idea. The 8nfo that csme w mt battery said to top off EVERY time. Only had the battery for sbout 6 months, so ill go ahead and change my practices.
Great Video. New to Lithiums and LiTime. Been doing some research, think im a little.over with capacity, but run them 2 days if needed.
I will look at your other vids.
You have some great info, and I used to be a mechanic, just never knew whats best for LiFoP4. So. I get it. Lol. Helps me a ton.
Thx again.
Glad it's helped!
Awesome video, interesting info. I have an electric only setup with 36v (3×100ah AGM) 112lb Riptide in the back and 36v (3×80ah LiFePO4) 112lb Terrova on the front with voltage monitors on both. For me, a short day fishing is around 6 hours, and a long day during the summer is 12+ hrs fishing around 400 acre (electric only) reservoirs using both trolling motors. On a windy day, I'll use around 60-75%, but typically, I average right around 50-60%. I have to charge the batteries before I go fishing, or there won't be enough capacity for the next fishing trip. I fish every weekend. I plug in the chargers as soon as I get home, been doing that ever since the wet cell days. Going to be hard to break that habit and go against the manual of the lithium batteries. Those things are expensive and hope I can get several more years out of them. All that being said, your saying to not charge the batteries while stored and only charge them before you use them again. Trying to teach old dogs new tricks, this will be a hard adjustment.
You got it! Best to leave them at 25-40% SOC when you get back home and just charge them up the night before you go fishing.
Good information Thanks, my question has to do with the newer outboards with the higher output charging systems, it seems like every time you run the big motor you are topping off the lithium batteries
Agree, it does depend on the charging out put and what else you are drawing off of the cranking battery. For my lithium cranking, I usually come back with around 15-20% consumed. The charging system on my outboard isn't the highest.
Awesome to learn this! So if I only have one charger connected to the lithiums and the agm - do I need two chargers now or is there a way to easily disconnect the lithiums? How do you do this? Maybe just let the agm be charged by engine when not charging all three?
The easiest way I have come up with is to buy a simple "maintainer" and install it on the AGM battery. Plug that in when you get home. Before you go fishing, plug in the lithiums.
First, great stuff Mike. As somebody who started building lithium batteries from individual cells over 10 years ago, you’ve done a great job at explaining this stuff to folks in a way that is pretty straightforward to understand. As I skimmed through the video, I didn’t see or hear anything I disagreed with. 👏👏
Thanks Peter!
Very informative. Thank you. How do you find out the capacity of your lithium battery?
Many batteries now have bluetooth that will show you the SOC. Some batteries have a screen on the top that do the same thing.
for the rest, you will need to use a Shunt or Hall Effect style battery monitor to watch the current come in and out of the battery to estimate SOC.
Awesome video! New sub. Be getting my new 32ah 16v this Friday & picking up my 106U2 head & LVS 34 Thursday 😁👍👍
Thanks for the sub! Which battery are you going with??
I'm looking to upgrade to lithium for next season and trying to decide if 1 24v 50ah battery will cover my needs. This video was very helpful!!
Glad it was helpful!
This is all good info and thanks for that but in my 3 bank 36v setup how do I know where I'm at? I really only know when they are fully charged, degradation is not something I want but a day on the water with no battery is worse. If I check one of the three do I assume they're all at that level, is there a way to tell at the 36v end?
Assuming you aren't running bluetooth enabled batteries?
They make battery monitors, a shunt or hall effect style that monitor the power going in and out of the batteries. Those are a nice indicator of SOC.
@goodmanfishing I've seen the gauge type monsters on Amazon, do I need to only monitor one of the three or all three? Correct mine are not BT. Is there something at the trolling motor I can see via 36v.
Thank you, I'm studying and learning before I jump in. This is very good information. I'm glad to have a place to get good, quality information. Keep it up,we will keep watching!
Glad it's helpful for you!
So can we charge our LiFePO4 batteries with a lead acid style charger or converter, rendering only an 80% charge, then top them up occasionally with an inexpensive, Lithium grade, 3 amp, trickle charger?
Now I have to "partially charge" my batteries? Exactly how do you do that with a 4 bank charger?
Partially charging or at least not storing them for extended periods is the message.
For not storing them at high SOCs, you can run a basic maintainer on lead-acid or AGM cranking batteries. The night before the boat goes out, plug in the 4-bank.
For partially charging, an outlet timer could be used to stop charging after a certain duration. This isn't fool proof, but it could be implemented. If your 100Ah batteries are at 50%, you have a 10a charger, you would turn off the charging after ~3 hours.
Ultimately this information should get back to the battery manufacturers to provide their customers with more functionality in the batteries. The "bluetooth" equipped batteries are very basic. There should be target / max SOCs that can be set with occasionally charging to 100% for balancing.
Yeah, my phone has that feature.
How would this effect my situation. I usually fish 1 day a week, but it for 10-12 hrs.
My Ionic 125ah are usually in the 40-60% range when I get home.
And, yes, I'm guilty of plugging them in to have them fully charged and ready.
I've been building my own batteries for a few years now, yep I'm the guy who has over capacity, but I also will run them for several trips before I charge them.
Just charge to 14V with full absorption no harm done no matter how often you charge. Calendar aging is going to have more effect on cell life than constantly charging to 14 or 14,2V
Great info! I will definitely have to modify my practices because I’m still very much a plug in as soon as I get back kind of guy. I’m also running my Force on 24v with a heavy Ranger Z21 and 4 Garmins on a separate 100Ah - both usually get down in that 30-50% range on a tournament day.
Sounds like the only tweak you need to make is storing them while fully charged!
This makes a good argument for having your lithiums in one charger and cranking on a different, single charger.
Or go all lithium's with Bluetooth capability.
Excellent information. Very informative.
Great Video. This is a new area for many of us. Thanks for sharing.
I'm glad you found it helpful!
Love this info video and thank you!!! Is it the same rule for my electric bike lithium battery????? witch is a very large one????
You'll need to identify which battery chemistry you are working with. This content is LiFePO4-specific. Many bike batteries are different chemistries that are more energy dense.
So I use lithium mostly, on kayak its for electronics and on my boat for electronics and trolling motor. Now on my kayak my battery is usually discharged about 2/3 or more so I use 12Ah of an 18Ah battery. This requires me to charge before use weekly, I do leave it all week in the discharged state and charge it fully the night before. Similar situation with my trolling motor battery I know I don’t need 100Ah so I use a 50Ah as I have a smaller aluminum boat and don’t need the bigger battery. Because of this I do need to charge before a trip or I’ll be cutting it close.
How would I know what size I need for my trolling motor . I was thinking a 2 50 amp batteries my friends say get 2 100 amps I usually only fish 4 to 6 hours when we go norm
Looking at it this way seems to click for people.
1x Lead Acid Battery = ~50Ah usable Energy
1x LiFePO4 50Ah Battery = 50Ah usable Energy
1x LifePO4 100Ah Battery = 100Ah usable energy.
Two *new* lead acid batteries work well for the far majority of users. That would be two 50Ah lithiums. Going to two 100Ah batteries is like running FOUR lead-acid deep cycles. That's a lot...
I run 2 100-amp lithium batteries on trolling motor. It is overkill. I can run it hard all day and batteries only go down to 80%.
So how do you read the charge in it. Because it will run till is completely used up. How do you get a good reading
Many batteries now have bluetooth that will show you the SOC. Some batteries have a screen on the top that do the same thing.
for the rest, you will need to use a Shunt or Hall Effect style battery monitor to watch the current come in and out of the battery to estimate SOC.
I have had a 24V LiPo4 with Terrova trolling system for less than a year. I have been charging them to 100% upon returning from a 4-6 hour river fishing trip. I am having hip replacement surgery in a week then going to Florida for two months. They are fully charged right now. How long should I let the prop rotate if I turn them on while boat is on trailer in driveway to get to 40-60%? Or should I do that at all? And is there an easy way to check % used/remaining?
Does your battery have bluetooth or a way to monitor the status?
@ I don’t think so. I will just check the 4 red lights on the Terrova, and hope that will help me stay within 20-80% range. Other suggestions?
The red dots are likely setup for the voltages of a lead acid or AGM, not a LiFePO4.
They sell separate Hall effect or shunt style battery monitors that can be retrofit
I run Power House Lithiums 2 60aH 36V and a 16V running all my electronics an AGM X2 starting battery for my ETec 250. I run a Power Pole Charger with a Run and gun to my 16V. Lots of stuff happening but rarely have to plug in. I have my settings to shift power on the run and I keep my Lithium at 50% before shifting power. My 16V is a beast and last for 3 days with 4 big graphs and FFS so power is trickled there. Power House has a huge warranty for the first 10 years. The reason for 2 lithium 36V is basically a backup for tournament day. I had one fail on me and cost me the TOC. More of an insurance policy.
That sounds like a great setup for your needs!
So alternator/run n gun chargers that keep your lithium batteries charged up while big motor is running are not good things to use ? Many lithium battery mfgs are now offering them.
"good" and "ideal" dont always align. They're "good" if you use a lot of energy and need to quickly replenish it while on the water. That charging profile isn't "ideal" for the batteries.
Love the info video!!! Does the same rule apply for my electric bike lithium battery witch is a big long ranch battery???
You would need to know what chemistry that battery is for that determination, LFP, NMC, etc.
Excellent points and information!
But something else to remember is that these lifepo4 cells can withstand 2,000 to 10,000 cycles, which is possibly 20 to 100 years of use! I wonder with a bit of abuse where that life cycle lands. Probably 10+ years is my guess.
Thanks!
Yes, they will have a very long cycle life. As mentioned, they also experience calendar aging. In a perfect environment, they'll see about 1%/year degradation just from aging. Of course that rate will change depending on how it is treated, temperature while stored, cycled, etc.
@@goodmanfishing so, at 1% degradation due to calendar aging, they will die in 100 years in a perfect environment, Sounds like a non-factor to me.
@@CAN43715 I definitely don’t think it’s gonna work like that. I think they have a Calendar lifespan.
Would the BMS system not manage the charge cycle to optimize these ranges- for example the power-pole charge? It seems logical to me that the BMS should account for this so all you have to do is plug them in and let the BMS manage the charge cycle?
With all of the bluetooth connected batteries now, they really need to add more functionality to the app. It's a missed opportunity by the manufacturers.
Rather than just letting us see the status, we should be able to set charge limits and every "X" cycle let it charge to 100% to let it balance. Shouldn't be hard to do!
I use a 36 lb on my kayak powered with a 100ah battery. I drive up and down the lake for 8 to 10 hours and usually wear the battery down to between 30 and 40%. When I get back home I always bring the battery in and put it on the charger.
May try leaving it at 30-40% until the night you before you go out again.
Good information, this is the way we take care of our RC airplane batteries.
Glad you found it useful - RC batteries have a lot in common with those used in boats.
What does the addition of brushless trolling motors mean in this conversation. I sometimes troll for 10 hours. That used to make a dent in 31 Group AGM's. Now, with my Lithiums, I bet it hardly matters. The challange is to know you have the juice for a tough day trolling into the wind on big water under rough conditions after 'not charging' the night before. Seems like a risk tradeoff?
Exactly. Have to learn what you use. Go from there. If your at 100%, pay attention to days when you use TM most. See where you stand at night.
If you got 70% remaining, after a day in high winds and current.
Get the same result after 3,5,10 trips out. You know you'll go 2 days.
Know exactly what your saying tho.
I'm new to Lithium, but know enough about batteries in general.
I'd follow his advice.
Just take your time, learn what you need, before pushing the limit.
I'd rather have 100% every morning. But of its hurting my batts, and I only use 25,35% the average day, I'll let it go 2 days.
I'll be switching to brushless very soon, from an old 12v 35lb. Gona be a whole new learning experience for me. Can't wait to see what 2 100amp lithiums will do, with a Terrova Quest 24v. Lol
I have faith. Lol
I wonder how much damage I’ve done? Charged it to 100% seventy times this summer. Now I know! I will draw it down to 50% for winter storage. Thanks for schooling us.
I bet you're in good shape, hope it helps!
What about cold climate areas storage..?
So how do we know what our percentage is without Bluetooth?
I use a TR16 battery capacity tester from Amazon for the lithium batteries. It'll work on any type of bettery. Works pretty good for me.
You can add a battery monitor (hall effect or shunt). Amped outdoors makes a nice bluetooth one.
@@goodmanfishing thanks ill certainly look into it
Are there any charges on the market that will cut off at 80%? My phone has this feature where it can stop charging at that level to protect it. It may be a good addition to an upgrade BMS feature you could control via BT.
I've not seen any yet, but it is definitely needed. Should be easy enough for them to implement target SOCs
Don't own lithium batteries but it makes sense, I charge my batteries as soon as I get home so I can see why lithium owners would do exact that.
I bought 2 lithium LiFePo4 batteries .. what do i need to measure the amount of charge remaining so I stay in the sweet range?
There are aftermarket battery monitors that can be used, but they must be a shunt or Hall effect type. Amped outdoors has a nice one
I'm a new Lithium owner, I have 2 boats so I'm not new to anything except the Lithium batteries. My question is how do you know the state of charge to be able to keep them in the 20-80%? I have 2 lithium chargers, one mounted 10A for the trolling motor I bought with the batteries from the battery manufacturer that shows nothing, and one stand alone lithium charger that will show the state of charge when charging but it's just a blinking bar graph that I don't trust much.
Hello - You would need either bluetooth equipped batteries or a battery monitor. There are shunt or hall effect style monitors that essentially count each amp that comes in and out of the battery to determine SOC.
Learned something, just in time, because I just started using LiPo. Thanks.
Glad you found it helpful!
Hope i read the reference correctly. From the Journal you referenced it seems they put around 1400 cycles on the batteries, at 40°C the best case going from 0-25% lost around 5% of the capacity. The batteries at worse case, 75% to 100%, the batteries lost 20% of capacity. So if i put 100 cycles on my batteries per year, even if i use it in the worse case i might lose 20% over 14 years. I don't remind having to replace my batteries every 10 years. The degradation will be more due to age than cycling. I am not worried about charging to 100% before i go out. Also if i just used the batteries from 0-25% state of charge i would need at least twice the batteries i currently have. So my take from this is I would just not store the batteries at full state of charge over the months i don't use them.
Knowing that storing is any length of time I typically just charge the night before I use them. I only fish once a week but my batteries aren’t oversized so they need to be charged before a trip. Ultimately from what I’ve gathered over the last 7yrs of using Li batteries is not storing them over 80%.
If you have average size lifepo4 batteries Where are you use maybe 50% on your average trips, you would be fishing a lot go through 100 cycles in a year. That’s probably four full 8-10 hour trips a week. I use maybe 50% at the most on my batteries and I charge them after and usually it takes at least two trips if not 3 before a charge cycle is recorded. So I usually fish once a week. 52 trips a year, that’s not even 52 charge cycles. It’s more like 25 at the most. Obviously, it depends on what percentage of your batteries you go through on average. But I don’t think a charge cycle registers until you use a full 100%. So if you only use 30% it’s going to take you at least three trips before it shows you went through a charge cycle. Even if you charge every trip.
So I charge mine when I get home. I also have 2 graphs at the dash and 1 at the front with FFS on a 100ah. I try to let the battery charge for 8-12 hours sometimes closer to 24 then unplug it until I use it every Sunday. On my app when it’s charged it does get to 100% but after a day unplugged it drops to 80%. It will maintain 80% for a couple months easily. My question is should I be trying to only charge it to 80% and removing it? Most trips I come home and it’s around 40% according to the app.
Sounds like you have a good BMS that is taking care of your battery’s resting SOC on its own. I know my lithiums have a self-discharge rate at rest, and the BMS will cut that off around 80% if I recall correctly from the manufacturer info (I have no way of monitoring that). Sounds like I need to actually not worry about charging until the day before using though. Just don’t do like I did this week and fish Day 1 of our classic, then forgot to plug in that night due to some other mechanical distractions I had to take care of, then run out of juice for my graphs on Day 2 with an hour to go still…😂
Sounds like the battery is going into a storage mode and showing the 80% SOC.
Even if you are coming back home at 40%, it's best to leave it there until the night before you go again and then charge it.
Great information. I’m new to all of this and have watched all of your videos on regarding lithium batteries. This winder, I will be setting up my electronics on a stand-alone lithium battery in a clean power system. I realize that I have to do draw-down calculations and observe actual operation of the system to see how my battery will perform. Do most lithium batteries with Bluetooth functionality provide the stats such as SOC to my phone so that I can monitor for proper charging? Thank you for providing us with this valuable information.
I've got li time blue tooth and doc and balancing info shows in the app on my phone
My
I time app does doc and balancing info
The battery manufacturer will generally provide you with the most accurate information regarding its measurements and displays if you have one that comes with it.
I tought the larger DOD the less cycles the batteries have, and also if the discharge is under 20-30% is does not even count as a cycel by some manufactors ?
Cycles are really throughput. If you discharge a battery 50% then charge it 50%, that is 1 cycle. You have moved 100% of the capacity through the battery.
@@goodmanfishing so draining the battery completely is 2 cycels? Looking at Victron & Relion datasheets and trying to make sense of this.
When o plug my boat in it charges my 2 liths and my lead battery. Of course the starter lead acid takes longer. How can I isolate the trolling lith batteries?
Thanks for the comment! Couple of ideas...
1) Some chargers have quick connections at the battery, you can disconnect the lithiums there.
2) You could wire in a DPSP (dual pole single pole) switch inline with the charging leads. This would interrupt the charger seeing the lithiums until you are ready to charge them.
3) Install a maintainer on the lead-acid. When you get home plug in the maintainer only. The night before you go fishing, plug in your 3-bank charger.
4) If you have bluetooth equipped batteries, you can usually toggle "off" the charging input. Until the evening before.
My batteries take over night to balance. Is it ok to use them when the app says they're balancing?
It's best to leave them alone while balancing. It will not "hurt" anything by using it.
This is awesome info! Thank you. I have a question tho. I'm planning on upgrading to a 24v trolling motor with spot lock and my lake is pretty windy on average. I was planning on a 100ah I tend to go out for most of the day. Would that be overkill?
I would expect 25+ hours of fishing out of a 100Ah at 24v. Of course it depends on the wind, size of the boat, etc. but it's quite a bit of energy. Same equivalent as four lead acid deep cycle batteries.
Awesome thank you I think I will try the 50ah first if I need to I can get a second if needed
I have one lithium battery that runs my live scope 100 w I have three more 3,700 lead acid battery one runs the gas motor the other two trolling motor lights bilge pump aerator so if they are fully charged and I stay out at the lake for 4 to 5 hours if I'm understanding you correctly I shall be able to do this twice then give it a full charge thanks enjoyed the video.
My ionics go to sleep if they sit? and have to be recharged?
I charge every week whether I use the boat or not. I'm gonna stop that's. Thanks for the advice.
You're welcome!
In your opinion, if I had a 90 thrust trolling motor with 100 ah of lithium battery power , would I even need to have the mercury motor alternator attached to it ??? Some say alternators can be affected by lithium batteries!
I assume 24v 100Ah for 90lb thrust?
@ Yes
@@goodmanfishing Yes it’s a ghost trolling motor I have at 24 volts . With 100 Ah would it have to be even connected to the Mercurys alternator
Great information. No problem admitting I am the put on charger as soon as I get home from a trip guy, but not anymore! Any tips on how I could discharge them? I live in Wisconsin and they are now out of the boat for winter storage the next 5 months and are currently at full charge.
Trying to discharge 12v batteries? A small ~1000W inverter can be used with a small heat gun or personal heater to draw things down.
Trade up to a canoe or a kayak, no battery problem, no dumping oil into the lake and no noise to irritate those on shore, plus the exercise is good for you.
Great Information Sir
Glad it was helpful!
Definitely eye opening! Thanks Very Much.
Glad to help!
I just realized that my Ego batteries will start to flash green after being stored for about a month at full charge. Apparently they're self discharging, which is something I think we might see integrated into more batteries at some point.
Interesting! I'd like to see some more app functionality in these batteries. The "bluetooth" batteries are very very basic in what you can do with the connectivity.
How do you explain all the boats that sit in a marina and only go out once a month or so with the battery full all the time ,the boat beside me has done this for 10 years , I think not all lithium are made to the same standard either , I think the damage to the battery would be barely measurable
The boats at the marina aren't properly storing their batteries. The "damage" or degradation is measurable if you were to do capacity tests on the battery over time. Which is what the study did.
People don't do that testing, which is okay, there are other things one can worry about. But it's not irrelevant.
Great job on explaining. Very informative!
Hope it helped!
I have a dumb battery (no bluetooth) and a dumb charger, so I don't have a good way to determine SOC. I typically charge up every time simply because I usually don't know how much I will need the next time out. My buddy who converted to lithium years before I did operated the same way and his battery is currently somewhere around seven years old and still retains 95+% capacity (he has a smart charger now that shows this, but didn't for many years). I bought the same battery he has (Battleborn) and I had to have it replaced under warranty after three years because it dropped to 50% capacity. I believe it went bad due to a defect and not because of how I charged it, but I can't prove that.
What about guys with the power pole charge system? Can that play a difference if it is plugged in immediately after fishing? I hear that it has some sort of draining software or something like that that keeps the batteries on a healthy cycle.
I would be interested to know more about this software you're referring to. I'm not sure what strategy they would be using to manage that.
do they make chargers that will stop at 80% charge? Seems like a great product to produce haha
Not really. The best way to manage this is within the BMS. It should be super simple for it to charge to X% and every Nth cycle to go to 100% to balance.
Thanks for sharing this valuable piece of information.
I'm glad you found it helpful!
How do you check the capacity of a battery?
I use something like this that pulls a load and monitors the output of the battery to determine usable capacity.
amzn.to/414I0uL
Do you use spot lock allot ? I’m on spot lock a ton during a typical 6 to 8 hr fishing day . Having said that, great information on the 80 to 20 ! I’m in Florida where it’s hot ! Luckily my boat is stored in a carport in the woods . No direct sunlight and usually not over 85 to 90 degrees. What is your lithium brand of choice for trolling and do you use lithium for cranking?
I use spot-lock, but not for extended periods. I do fish in plenty of wind, however!
For budget brands, I run a LiTime TM battery and dual purpose cranking battery. If you need 12v TM batteries, the Group 24 w/bluetooth is nice.
th-cam.com/video/Ng_MGmNUHUo/w-d-xo.html
How do you know if you’re between 20 and 80 percent?
The good companies have an app to monitor your battery's. @AmpedOutdoors
Great information. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Nice video! Which battery capasity tester would you suggest for 12V and 24V batteries?
This one works for 12v, 24v, or 36v. It is limited to 180w regardless of voltage, but it will draw the batteries down and monitor capacity. There are high dollar pieces of equipment that a lab or battery manufacturer would use, but this is consistent and offers a good point of reference.
amzn.to/4fBsoT8
how does storing in cold affect the the batteries say below freezing
Below freezing for an extended period, I would try to bring them inside. Around freezing, I would leave them below 80% SOC and not worry.
Great & awesome video!!! Thanks for sharing those tips. Very helpful. I don't own any lithium batteries yet but maybe looking into getting them once the regular acid batteries run their course. Any advice for the acid batteries?? Stay Safe & God Bless!!! 🤠👍
Thanks! For lead-acid batteries, don't discharge them below ~50%, ever. Keep them charged up/float charging and try not to let them freeze!
Good info was wondering about this cause for most lipo batteries storage voltage is about 3.8 per cell. Would be cool if the battery could be placed in storage mode ….or I’d charge had a storage mode …I think my charger has an off button per battery
I really think these bluetooth equipped batteries need to step-up their user controls.
Toggling storage mode would be nice. What we really need is to be able to set a maximum charge limit (like cars). Every Nth cycle it would allow it to charge to 100% and balance. Should be very simple to implement!
Ok, weekend fisherman here. 1AGM for electronics and start and 212 volt lead acid for tm, one NOCO 3 bank charger. If i wanted to go lithium for trolling, whats the best way to make this work?
The easiest installation would probably be to add a simple "maintainer" to the AGM. When you get back from fishing, plug in the maintainer. The night before you fish, plug in the NOCO and charge them all up.
I would go all lithium. Ionic makes a 125amp battery with a BMS catered to your starting motor. This is enough amps to run all your Electonics also. You then can run two 50-amp Lithium Batteries for you trolling motor. A Norco 3 bank charger would work just fine. I have been running this setup for 3 years now without any problems.
I only use my 80 ah for my livescope. Is this bad as far as life? Not sure how to look at this.
No concerns there, just try not to keep it at high SOCs
Lead acid charging habits hard to change!
How do I now discharged my pair of 36V batteries? Brushless bow mount motor deployed in storage And operated for 20 hours made NO CHANGE in SOC %. 16V house battery for electronics drained to 91% (so far).
Why don’t the charger and app give us an option to optimize (80-20%) the charge!!?
Running down the 36v is a bit more of a challenge. Other than an inverter or a battery tester, not many general electronics can handle 36v.
It would be nice for the battery apps to manage target charge SOCs!
My lithium starter battery has 9 cycles on it after 4 years....every time I start up the big motor, it's recharging....I can't imagine how to avoid that for starter battery.
Cranking batteries certainly have a different use case, especially if it's ONLY being used for cranking. If you are using it for graphs and accessories, it may not always be at 100% when you get off the water.
The test stated they cycled the batteries 1400 times. You will never cycle your battery that much with your use case. Also, that test resulted in about an extra 20% degradation. It increased from approx 96% to 77%. So if you are only using a small percentage of your capacity, you will still have lots remaining (after 1400 cycles).
Im using roughly 20% of my 60ah lithium battery when im out one day. Usally I dont charge it until I know im having more company in the boat or if im going away for 2-3 days.
Sounds like a good way to go
Hello my bass boat and motor 2019 my motor is f90 Yamaha it says in the manual not to use lithium batteries I still have the original AGM batteries that came with the boat I don’t know how much more time they have so I’ve been looking at lithium’s for the trolling motor and I would stay an AGM for the Yamaha it’s a 24 volt (2-12volt in series) now if have to wait to charge the lithium batteries is that going to hurt my AGM battery
I run a 125 amp lithium Ionic battery on my 2005 yamaha f150. This battery also powers 4 graphs including livescope, two aerators and 2 talons. I am on my third year without any problems. I also run 2 100-amp Ionic batteries for my trolling motor. Ionics have Bluetooth so you can monitor them. Absolutely no problems.
The local merc shop has had several pro xs motors fry stators from lithium batteries. Mercury even has a bulletin about it according to the dealer.
@@Muskyfishn84 All I can say is that I run a Lithium Ionic125ah battery on my 2004 Yamaha F150 for 3 years now without any problems. Several other anglers in the fishing club also are running the same battery powering both Merc and Yamaha newer and older without problems. Could it be the problems they are running into is from cheap Lithium Batteries with BMS systems not programmed to be starter batteries?
Two of them in the shop when I was there WERE Ionic batteries that caused the problem. It is due to the voltage being higher than lead acid and AGM, not the brand…
@@Muskyfishn84 All I can say is that there are over 6 anglers I know of who use the Ionic batteries without any problems. I am more than happy with mine and will never go back to lead acid or AGM. All I can say to you is don't use them if you don't trust them, but for my two cents worth, I think your fears are overstated and I don't believe you when you say there are two in the shop with problems caused by Ionic Batteries.
What is the voltage of a 100% charged battery?
Depends on the balance and the variance between the cells. Usually 13.4v-13.6v
My manufacturer states ro xharge to 14.6v. it seems very high compared to other brands.
The charger will charge at high voltage. The BMS will limit the actual voltage of the pack to ~13.4-13.6v
80 Lb minn Kota ultrex 24v will 2 100 ah wrk fine??
2x100Ah will likely get you 2-3 average days of fishing.
Thanks, great info. Does the charging voltage matter? I'm using a 5 amp charger at about 13.6 volts so it takes a while. I've seen people post that it needs to be 14 volts? I've seen people that say to top them off after every trip too.
Lithium like high charging rate. 15A or 20A is ideal. But a 5 or 10 will work. I've been charging mine at 10Amps and they've been great for 4 years now
You do need to ensure it gets to the proper voltage when charging. Which charger are you using?
It's a noco 3 bank 5a. I was going to pull the onboard and get one 10a charger 1 bank and do them separately. I'll be unable to keep charging to the exact same level unless I go 100%. You think I ought to get a 2 bank for better control. Sorry, I didn't know you replied, thanks
BMS says 100% fully charged using the noco 5a
So is there a way to test your batteries capacity?
Yes sir. The basic way I use is one of these testers. Charge the battery and it records the wattage consumed and gives you the results.
amzn.to/48P78Hv
Do any smart chargers have a charging profile option to stop at 80%? Maybe they should. It would be a PITA to constantly monitor the SOC targeting 80%. The app doesn't even have a trigger or notification alarm for 80%. Maybe it should. If your boat is stored remotely or out of bluetooth range it's impracticable. Maybe I'll have to buy new batteries a little more often. Not a big deal.
There is a big need for battery manufacturers to provide more functionality to "bluetooth" equipped batteries. There's no reason they can't internally set a target charge SOC in the app and get there.