Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers Case Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 เม.ย. 2021
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze the case of Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers?
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We got lost in the mountains of Pennsylvania, about an hour from home. All of a sudden we were just turned around and didn’t know which way to go. Luckily, we were on our horses and just gave them free rein and they took us back to our trailer. Scary.
i dont know how other animals manages to return home or even live in the wild and we humans can't....i mean we r animals too....evolved...!!
@@mohammadismail7599 Don’t ask me. I have a terrible sense of direction. I can get lost going up and down sets of stairs or escalators. I get all turned around. My mother had it plus other aunts and cousins and now I’ve gifted it to my children. My 16 year old grand son just started driving and I see he has it too,plus my lack of depth perception in the dark. I guess I gifted him too. Animals have amazing abilities. Smell, memory, migration, magnets in the brain. Humans have loss their abilities to just feel or know those things. It has to thought out and planned
@@gyptess4794 Haha! Me too! I have terrible sense of direction
You must be so grateful for your horses , they probably saves your lives
That's why every horse I ever rode (and now I ever had) got taught the same "trick":
No matter if riding out at home or on travels:
The moment we are deciding to go home, some "code" ist told the horses "Now we go HOME."
A horse always finds home, but that ensures that the horse knows when it is time.
It can be really good when one got hurt or something like that.
I do that with the dogs the same.
I never got lost for real, but there were a few occasions when I wasn't quite so sure which way to go (or where I parked my car) and quite glad that "back" means "back to the point we started" and the dogs will just lead the way ;)
I have a good sense of directions, but my mother gets lost literally everywhere..
Time to get her a dog ;)
Thinking about the moment these two realized the danger they were in is gut-wrenching. People that panic are not behaving rationally. I went for a walk in the woods, headed into the bushes because I saw a deer and wanted to take a closer look. I got lost on my way back and couldn't find the path anymore. No bars on my phone. I was just a few minutes from the path but could sense panic slowly setting in. And that was a pretty small, harmless, well-lit forest. I can only imagine what it feels like being swallowed by the jungle. Horrible way to go.
Women don t get scared untill it's too late.
@@jackiepowell7513so, when do men get scared?
And annually so many people get lost or disappeared forever while visiting US National Parks...and now imagine what could happen to someone lost in the deep jungle of a non-developped foreign country😮
@@intheshadow1200 and many gangs hidding in the woods
I don't think they got lost, don't go deep in the territory of horny jungle men, simple as that. Not everyone is gonna give you hugs and kisses. Especially if you are a teenage girl.
I lived in the Republic of Panama for two years and I can't stress enough how dangerous the jungle is. A few feet off the path, in any direction, and you're absolutely lost. The jungle should never, ever be taken for granted. It is more dangerous than any serial killer. Guaranteed.
Being in the jungle is less dangerous than being in the jungle with a serial killer. These girls had been on the beach in previous days and Kremers especially was doubtless a little sunburnt and skin-sensitised, How could they go off a jungle path wearing very short pants exposing their legs, and bare arms too?; they would instantly be scratched by undergrowth and have been forced to step back on the path. Even in the Darién National Park of Panama, nothing like this has ever happened. The jungle does not preferentially disappear hot young women.
@@seancidy6008 the fact that they went to the jungle with those clothes, makes me think of they lost, they understimated it, probably walked too much, and when they decided to go back, there werent a bit of sunlight, just darkness.
Im panamanian, and this always happen, because, haitians and others, try to cross the darien, but no one cares about them because they are illegal immigrants
@@borisgraell Night is dark in most places. They made one call each 12 minute apart while the sun was disappearing behind the mountain when seen from the down slope on the stream in photo 508, then, without any any retries at connecting for an EMERGENCY both the phones were powered off and stayed off for 14 hours. No attempted calls after the morning of the 3rd, and no phone activity of any kind on the 7th, 8th (when the night photos were taken), 9th and 10th. The last phone activity was on the 11th. Malevolent human beings are more easily underestimated and tricky than trees and nightfall.
@@seancidy6008 one of them might have needed to pee and went a bit into the brush for modesty and perhaps got bitten by a spider or snake. In their ensuing panic after it started getting darker they most likely lost the ability to see the trail at all. I would not have attempted such a hike unless accompanied by someone who was reputable and experienced with that area.
Henry elizier and his gang ... game over
I was extremely familiar with a path at the local state park. I was walking with my dogs when I it seemed like only minutes and darkness fell. Despite being on that trail many times, I became completely disoriented and could feel myself panic. Like a story below with horses, I let my dogs lead me the rest of the way. I can only imagine how terrifying that would be in a jungle. I still walk my dogs at night (on a road) and whenever there is a moonless night and it is pitch black, I think of these girls. Their final days must of be terrifying. Eternal rest grant onto them, Oh Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them and all of the faithful departed by the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen
"Moonless night" and "pitch black" gave me the chills. Glad you have your dogs with you-my dearly departed big guy (a huge Bernese Mountain Dog) warded off someone who came across a trail I used to hike along alone, in Washington state. It was off season and I'd take my snowshoes with me just to be safe, so there was very little foot traffic that time of year. My dog let out a sharp and commanding bark before I even realized this man was there. I instantly got terrible vibes that overwhelmed me completely; I still get a little shakey thinking about it, to this day. I stopped hiking that trail for well over a year after that. God bless our dogs, they are a gift to the people who love them. Stay safe out there!
why do you still walk your dogs when it is pitch black outside? are you not concerned with your safety? or do you have a gun or something?
Aren't animals amazing? They can literally save our lives by using their natural instincts when our rational minds fail us. Machines are great but they will never replace a reliable animal friend
@@sjennicaWow, that's terrifying. It also speaks to the possibilities of this case. It's very easy to get lost but you never know when a real predator will strike especially because striking when they are least expected is all part of the strategy
@anna-wt2tz she said she still walks her dog on the road (likely near her home at night). If you have a dog, and no fenced in yard, there is gonna be many occasions in which they need walked when it's dark out.
Am from panama , and I would never ever do what they did as a matter of fact I have family in that area and I can tell you that even locals get lost in the mountains , mother nature is no game .
Is there any known criminal activity in the mountains? Sometimes i think that they were lost and the they stumbled on to something they weren't supposed to see...
Yo tambien
I agree,,, who would go to such place alone with no guidance,,,
I agree. I am from Brazil and we have amazing places to hike, but we always go with a guide.
@@themidascurse4048 no criminal activity, just small stuff, in that area there is no drug traffic, not any type of organized crime, just mountains, and few locals, but if I had to say there may have been someone I would point out the ex-pat community, and the reason why am saying this is because in the past we had an American serial killer William Dathan Holbert.
I don’t know how Dr. Grande does it but he manages to give a more concise and coherent summary of cases and theories in like 17 minutes that true crime TH-camrs can’t give in 52 minutes.
Check out Mrballen he's pretty good.
I agree! I do consume a lot of true crime and they always have to find a perpetrator. Sometimes it’s an accident and sometimes we don’t know what happened. Dr Grandes vídeos are excellent in this way.
That’s because they pretend to do a “deep dive” but when you actually listen to their content critically, really they are just speaking really slowly, repeating themselves and adding a lot of unnecessary fluff, including speculation about what the victim or criminal was thinking or feeling at the time. Anything to drag it out so more adverts can play during the video!
Because he is a doctor....
He makes an outline.
I have a theory about the photos taken on their camera at night. I’ve camped in the jungle, including in Panama (always with a guide). There are 2 things to know about the jungle at night:
1) It is PITCH black. You can’t even see your hand in front of your face. The trees block out the moon and stars.
2) The jungle comes alive at night. You hear rustling bushes, scampering feet, and animals making all sorts of noises
There have been many times I’ve turned on my flashlight in the middle of the night just to figure out what is making noises. It can be frightening, especially without a tent for protection.
My theory is that they took the night photos because they heard animal noises and the flash was their only source of light. The close-up of her hair may have been a “is there something crawling on me??” situation
1.That area has around the trail has parts like that with overhead foilage blocking out the light, but you can walk out of them because this is not the Brazilian jungle that goes on forever or even the Darien Gap. There are people and cattle around and you cannot keep cattle in a jungle. 2 If it was Froon and Kremers alone and lost taking the night photos, both of them were alive and well in the jungle for six nights already without using the camera at all; yet on in the early hours of the 8th April a full week after they went missing they suddenly decided to use the camera at night. By the way, the Panamanian authorities said the night photos were by Froon and show Kremers had died. It had been raining and It takes a month to starve to death. So even if Kremers had died, Froon's only immediate problem was she was lost and in that scenario the phone details must be accepted as proving she (or possibly Kremers) was still alive on the 11th. The searchers, many with previous experience of finding lost tourists in the area were aided by Panamanian special forces in combing though all areas they the girls could have reached, That very intensive search had began on the 6th of April and consisted of sweeps with yelling and using both loud calls and lights at night. It simply is not credible that either Kremers and Froon were able to turn a phone on and off and put it neatly in their backpack yet yet missed this dragnet moving through the area where they were, which must have come close to them while audible for miles away. If they had been lost they would want to be found. Finally the Panamanian government did not say the jungle killed them, according to them it was a cable bridge and that is not in the jungle, it is on the trail.
@@seancidy6008 good points. Strange and unlikely that the girls would suddenly use the camera at night a week after being lost. Enforces the foul play theory.
I've only stayed in coniferous forests and on moonless nights it's the same way. It's amazing how bright the night is during a full moon especially if there's snow. You can just about read a book from moonlight sometimes. Still, on dark nights it's insane how easy it is to get lost even when you walk only 100 feet from your tent. Even less if the vegetation is dense.
@@seancidy6008 What you say is very interesting. Do you know why the police think the night photos were taken by Froon and that Kremers had died?
@@elizabethkelly2987 The Panamanian government did not want the deathes of Kris and Lisanne to be a case in which perpetrators who abduct, rape and murder Dutch kirls were roaming their tourist attraction areas. There is a lot of rationalization going on in what is said _officially_ but I suspect that any cop worth his salt _privately_ suspects the night photos to be part of a criminal deception.
This case drives me absolutely nuts. It makes me sad to think their families will probably never have closure. >_< especially with all those strange photos :(
There was one important picture that wasn't discussed in this video: the one that showed a bunch of white papers arranged in a particular fashion (maybe an attempt to spell "SOS") and a reflective object placed near by (probably the bottom of a pringles' can) atop a rock.
@@joaogrande8846 yes, to draw attention it is thought, they made these alarm signals.
They were murdered and there was a cover up by the authorities, this is why there is no closure.
@@Nihilism4U I believe that too. There are just too many things that don't add up for me.
@@Zeepjeliefs Absolutely, when you have this many things which does not add up, and which contradict and complicate things, it is murder.
Nature and animals are not this complicated!
If you've ever got lost in the woods...you know how easily it happens.
It’s one advantage of being red-green color blind.
I'm from coastal British Columbia, in the Pacific Northwest. It's sad when I hear of hikers and others going missing in the backcountry. Tom Billings is one example from recent years that was such a sad case. He went in underprepared and alone. Another hiker found his remains a couple of years after his disappearance, so they could at least be returned to his family in the UK. IIRC, it was suspected that he sustained an injury and died as a result of exposure, or something like that.
Personally, I wouldn't go alone into any woods here that are deep enough that I could lose sight of civilization. I'd want to be in a group of at least four people, and I'd make sure others knew my plans.
I trained and qualified for LandNav and thought I was good with just map and compass....... nope, daddy still got Lost multiple times, very easy.
Absolutely. It happens very easily, and once you get lost, it's easy to make a bad situation worse.
One day I went on a short day hike with a friend and my dog in a wilderness area in northern AZ. My friend had been there several times and wanted to take me to a really great spot overlooking a mountain valley. On the hike in, I kept stopping and looking back over the trail, making mental notes of terrain, landmarks, etc. My friend thought I was being silly, since he knew the trail. On the way out, my friend missed the turn off to the main trail head. I spotted the turn off, but he insisted he was right, and since there was no way to convince him otherwise, we forged ahead.
We always made a pact before heading out - never split up, and never let anyone on the trail or in camp get between us physically or mentally. If my friend insisted on going the wrong way, we were going the wrong way together. Long story short, after walking for 11 hours, most of it in the wrong direction, we finally got to a fire road where we had cell reception.
The 911 operator had no idea where we were. No one at her location knew, either. She put out a broadcast to see if one of the deputies on duty might know where we were. Luckily, there was this one guy......
Who picked us up 30 or 40 minutes later. He said my directions/description were spot on, and he knew exactly where we were. What he couldn't figure out was how we'd gotten there. He drove us back out to the highway and half an hour later to the turnoff for the wilderness area.
11 hours, 20 miles and one 911 call later, we were back at our car. And 4-5 hours after that, we hobbled into our apartment. I've never, ever, been that tired. If he lives to be 100, my Navajo friend will never live this one down.
@@BuzzyStreet Dang, ya I’m Assiniboine and I take pride in my skills in land navigation and trust me, the times I accidentally got turned around...... my counterparts still don’t let me live it down 😓 put me back in time with my ancestors I’d have been ex communicated long ago.
This case is haunting whichever way you look at it. I'm from Costa Rica. The mountain range and jungle where they were lost runs from Panama into my country. It's pretty much impenetrable for the most part. Even experienced explorers have been known to get lost. The local people will tell you you have to respect the jungle. It's extremely easy to lose your bearings and become disoriented once you're off the marked trails. These girls were following a well-marked path, so it's strange they became lost, unless they left the path for some reason. Foul play is possible, of course. Tourists may trust someone who offers to show them other sights, someone who seems friendly. It has happened, unfortunately. There are human predators everywhere. It's also possible they decided to deviate from the path just a bit to see this or that, and went farther than they intended. You know, until all trees look the same. Anyway, a body will decompose and fall apart very quickly in the rain forest, with the heat and the heavy rain and the myriad creatures of all sizes that will fall upon it almost immediately. If there were alligators in the river, it's surprising they found anything at all. I feel for the girls and their families. All the possible answers are terrifying. May they be at peace.
@@wordsalad01 Yeah but there are no alligators in Latin America. Crocodiles a plenty though
@@asmr_nostalgia There are Caymans/Caiman. Which is neither crocodile or alligator.
@@asmr_nostalgia crocodiles are much more aggressive than alligators.
@@lisacurtis8162 I know. I've dealt with nuisance alligators in Florida and Georgia and I have swam with the American Crocodile in the Everglades and Florida Bay.
If only they’d taken a compass or even used the digital compass on their phones.
Very sad, two beautiful girls taken from their families.
May they rest in peace.
I used to work as a data recovery specialist some 15 years ago. The camera they had, put pictures on an SD card and later you could put them on a computer by taking the card out.
Those SD cards have the tendency to lose random pictures. Just like that one or 2 pictures from your vacation will simply vanish leaving an empty space. It’s possible that nobody deleted anything but the SD card messed up.
Interesting!
Yes, I doubt someone looked through all those pictures and deleted just one picture.
So many questions!
I have had various digital cameras and all my cell phones cameras have been configured to save pictures in the miniSD card and I have never got a file lost in the way you said ... I have used both SD and miniSD cards ... and I am talking of more than 15 years of experience taking photos in this way ...
@@jmcc1976 I googled it and apparently it is something that notoriously happens. I'll take that fact over the anecdotal evidence of one person, no offense.
The gang related theory is a really good one. The five young gang members who lived in the area are connected on several levels to the girls including a photo on one of their phones showing them swimming with the girls. Locals claim they had seen the girls return from the walk and were picked up in a car. The authorities did not investigate it further leading me to think they were protecting the gang. At least 2 of the men were later found dead. It's also possible the girls were lured to the village with a promise of work purely to be trafficked or used for organ harvesting explaining why they were treated so rudely. Quite a few have gone missing in the area. It's probably the best theory I have heard so far. There's a 2 part vid on here that looks into it.
Yea but how do you explain the activity on their phones days after? I know criminals tend to be dumb but why would they be calling 911 and taking weird pictures on the phones they stole from two girls they murdered? I think the gang murder theory would make the most sense if it wasn’t for the weird phone activity which leads me to believe it was just a tragic case of two inexperienced hikers getting lost and/or injured.
Honestly I don’t know what to think; one piece of evidence points to a tragic accident then another points to murder. I started this video thinking they were definitely murdered (based on my limited pre existing knowledge of the case) then I got half way through and thought “Naw, probably an accident” but now I’m not sure. It’s such a strange, perplexing and truly haunting case.
@Noodles
All one has to do is take a good look at the pictures taken at the Beach, and compare them to the pictures taken "on the trail" that clearly show they were photo shopped. I noticed that straight away with the strange compositions, out of scale, and artifact filled poses. The more one researches the evidence, there is only one conclusion to come to
BINGO! You win the prize. I read almost everything on this case on YT. They recently had a womans march protesting abductions. There are issues up there. I was in Boquete a couple before the girls. I did not feel a good vibe about the area. Young girls need masculine escorts in Latin America.
@@waynejohnson1786 uhh probably to try to throw authorities off? And make it seem like the girls were okay?
I thought of organ harvesting too because of the bleached bones 🫤
As a Dutch girl. This case was so big in The Netherlands. Such a emotional and sad story it was, and still is. It is still in the news from time to time here Thank you for covering the case respectfully and accurately. I hope these girls can rest in peace
It is terrific that this case have been closed, this case should not be closed, like how the governaments can close a case that is so confusing like this?
@@salwaslav8442 it's not closed ♠️
@@yyxy.oncesaid it is not? ohh good
Where did u see that
@POS Hunter I didnt get this point: "My findings revealed they walked right past the trail and they were sighted right up until bus repair barn, still a bit away from town, maybe 1 km or so." Could u explain it more?
Jeez, why the family didnt want help? I really do not get why
I also didn't get about the dog and the owner of the restaurant
Thanks a lot for sharing this
This is one of the most horrifying stories I’ve heard, may both the girls Rest In Peace
Dumb, ill-prepared tourists got lost in the wilderness and died of dehydration. Sad. Not horrifying. Look up Fred and Rosemary West. That's horrifying.
@@Bubba__Sawyer Your lack of empathy is not as much of a flex as you think it is. These girls were young and naive but they didn't deserve to die a long and painful death. That IS horrifying.
@@Lina-ee2dy Just ignore him, he was just happy that, for once, he found a story about two people whose lives were even sadder than his.
@Redwood Rebelgirl you didn't know them. They could have been terrible people
@@Bubba__Sawyer That's heartless
If you do a little research the attorney representing the parents said it was murder.Also a lot of the witnesses have been taken out
Things are done differently in the 3rd world .
But why all the false clues? In the deep jungle a local criminal could easily make the people disappear without a trace .
I've read online that many of the people associated with the tour guide and local town were murdered or mysteriously died shortly after the disappearance. If it's true, I am surprised you didn't mention it in your analysis. Either way, hearing you apply calm reasonable logic to such scary and sad events is balm for the soul. Thank you for your videos.
Guide😈
@@janettecoleman2037 Yeah he's still alive and kicking. People call him out on social media sometimes. Saying he knows something he isn't sharing. However there have been no new developments.
The taxi driver was murdered
@@anapaulaaf13 Why?
Yes, there are a lot of missing/dead people around this case, as mentioned here regarding the taxi driver...gang relations, and also the girls' remains were found on the property owned by the guide's family. VERY SUSPICIOUS.
I do a lot of research into true crime, but this is the only case that's actually frightened me enough to keep me up at night. No matter what happened to them, those poor girls suffered so much at the end of their lives. My heart goes out to their families, and I hope that their souls are at peace now.
I agree, this has really given me goosebumps esp thinking of them trying to dial for help so many times
I have a young daughter. Would never let her go to country where it’s dangerous. Young white women need to realize, outside your safe feminist countries, there is real danger and people DGAF.
Young white women? You do know this is the group least likely to be victims right?
@@truthsocialmedia I agree with Sonja. What "safe, feminist countries" are you referring to without "real danger"? I'd like to look up their crimes against women and children statistics.
@Amanda No, young people everywhere want to experience fun, adventure, and new experiences.
Many people can look back at things they did in their teens and 20's and consider their past behavior risky and unsafe---but they survived. Others were not so lucky.
There is no need to limit this common experience to physical appearance or gender. It's a consequence of young age, raging hormones, great general health, and developing brains.
It's very sad that this happened to these girls.
I have been fascinated by this case for years. Thanks for covering it. I love how this channel covers everything from true crime to internet influencers.
I wish he’d cover the Anne Sacoolas killing of Harry Dunn.
@@deltanovember1672 I am going to half to look that one up. I have not heard about it.
Me too. I went deep into this rabbit hole years ago and it's the one case I never forgot. It makes the hairs on my arm stand on end. Every now and again I find myself thinking of these girls.
I think they became lost. I don’t think it was a serial killer. An unfamiliar jungle can be just as dangerous as a human killer. Also, passports, aren’t they worth a lot of money, like thousands? A criminal isn’t going to steal that? Maybe the criminal knew they couldn’t sell it? Maybe someone found their stuff, didn’t want to be blamed for something they didn’t do, and left it where they knew a nice old lady would find it?
@@mychannel-fy3tf One theory is that they were killed by indigenous tribes. They'd have no need for tech or passports. If it was a more sophisticated killer, they would know the passports were of no use when the tourists turn of dead as they can be traced back potentially.
I want to leave here a warning for women who travel alone, be careful where you walk and who you trust.
in 2010 I was almost kidnapped by 3 guys in the Caribbean. I worked on a cruise ship and there were some vans on the island that offered sightseeing services around the island, I saw a van stopped and asked the guy if he was van tour guide he said yes.Then he asked me to get in the van and wait inside. He locked me inside and went out to talk to two other guys, I was alone in the van and I watched their movement outside, whispering . It gave me a bad feeling with those 3 strange guys, when they were preparing to come in the van, I ran out from the van, I ran so much that I even lost air, they yelled at me asking me to come back, I think they would kill/ hurt me, NEVER TRUST STRANGERS
A very similar event happened when me and my best friend travelled to the Caribbean in our early 20s. We were in the van (with a good driver) and another man came up and was trying to trade us as customers for two older customers he had on his van and the man declined the trade adamantly. When we returned to the depot place where the tourists find these tourists guides the scary man from the original van approached us and tried to take us on a “free tour” to a secluded beach and tried to lure us with some drugs. We declined because our spidy senses were going off like crazy but this guy was much larger than us and was cornering us at his van. An older couple we had dined with saw what was happening and intervened. The woman made quite the scene and was loud so the guy backed off and disappeared pretty quickly. It was surreal to say the least. Natalie Halloway had gone missing just before we went so we were on alert but never thought something like that would occur. We stuck with that old couple for excursions on the islands from then on. They were cruising multiple times a year and knew a whole lot more than we did.
I noticed this wasn't mentioned in your video but a female German tourist went missing in a similar and close area some time before these two. She was found by a search party, the search party abducted the missing woman and held her captive and raped her, she only escaped because she cut one of her abductors with a broken bottle and he had to be taken to the hospital and she escaped in the ensuing panic and chaos. It could be that they were lost, found by a similar type of search party, got killed and after the investigation became very popular and other countries were getting involved in it, the killers tried discarding their personal items and remains in the forest to throw the investigation off. Not saying it did happen just another theory out there
I think the German girl realised she had nothing to lose because they could hardly have been planning let to her go and make a complaint against them; would get them 15 years (as it did). They were drunk and that is why it had a happy ending.
In Kris and Lianne's case the perpetrators had carefully thought out what they needed to do to get away with it, which was not all that much as Panama has no army or police just a combined entity, and as the old saying goes ' Jack of all trades master of none'. The known facts(who found the remains) leave zero doubt about the identity of the vile perpetrators of this despicable double homicide.
There is a whole list of female travellers who went missing in Panama. I wouldn't go there for a million bucks.
This is one of the best theories I’ve heard regarding this case
@@maxshabazz1543 I agree. If there was others involved they would have taken their phones off them, they would have taken the camera and the money that was in the bag. What abductor would let you keep the phones and call for help? They got lost and injured and died as a result of that.
@@readdeeply9278 I live in Panamá. I feel very safe here. I remember when they went missing because I lived close to the area.
The fact that they didn’t leave a message on their phones for family/friends leads me to think they weren’t lost,injured or starving.
Bingo. And, when their backpack was found ( it suddenly appeared in a previously searched location...dry, intact, with sunglasses and clothing), it's appearance came after the reward money was greatly increased. Hmmm. And there's so much more.
Asesinadas diras
They called 911 repeatedly, though. They clearly knew they needed emergency intervention, regardless of what it would have been for.
@@heatherbukowski2102 also over a couple days they called not just within the same hour or so, seems more like whatever happened wasn’t a quick death at least not for both and at least one had time to think about it… maybe they hoped they would be found
@@oceanstaiga5928 yeah. I bet they were lost as hell. After that... a whole host of things could have happened to them. Whether it was an animal, exposure, falling, or murdered. Sounds like a nightmare but I also wonder why anyone would ever want to put themselves in that situation. I wouldn't hike without a professional, let alone go off the trail. Nope, nope, nope.
In 1995 whilst travelling in India I met a German guy called Dirk who told me he was going to Kashmir. I had been in Kashmir in 1987 , Pakistan two years later and then Kashmir again in 1993 and knew that it had become too dangerous for Westerners thanks to mujahaddeen such as Harkat ul Ansar. I advised him not to go. He disregarded my advice and went there. There along with some other Westerners he was abducted by a group calling itself 'al Faran' which, as all the seasoned India travellers knew, was a front for Harkat ul Ansar. One of the group was a Norwegian. His body was found, beheaded, with the name of the kidnappers carved on his chest. The others , including Dirk, still haven't been found to this day and are presumed to have been murdered and their bodies buried somewhere. Dirk, and the others, had something in common with these poor Dutch girls. They were not experienced travellers ( any more than was poor Debbie Maveau whose beheaded body was found by the side of the trail in Langtang, Nepal,) but holidaymakers whose experience of places outside Western countries was neglible. I don't know waht happened to Kris and Lisanne ( and whilst I have travelled in Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia I have never been to Panama or any of these other hot, sweaty Central American places) but it seems to me that more and more these days this kind of thing is happening (Aubrey Sacco in Nepal is another one) . Travel is an addictive drug ( I got bitten in the 1970s) and it can be a fabulous experience which contributes hugely to one's education , but it can be dangerous if one doesn't know what one is doing. Young ( or old) inexperienced people should read as much as they possibly can about the countries they plan to go to before they go.They should go on line and search for websites where they can ask advice from experienced travellers ( I myself am a regular contributor to such a site specialising in Nepal and India). Forewarned is forearmed. RIP Kris and Lisanne and happy, safe travels to other travellers.
Wise words xx
Thank you for sharing
@@filmchick6389 Yep. Words of wisdom!
The US will list travel advisories or concerns about most countries, and it can be very valuable info especially in places that may be subject to instabilty in their governments or areas known to have health risks. Or if you have an inner city primary care physician and he has notices asking if you have visited certain countries, those may not be too safe to visit. A place that is a new tourist hot spot one week, may be where criminals target those tourists the next week eg the old San Pedro prison "tours" done by a Briton imprisoned in Bolivia and the subject of the book Marching Powder.
Germans.........uh huh huh huh huh huh huh 😂
I heavily suspect foul play, even without a serial killer. Lots of bad guys in the world would kidnap or harm young ladies in a such a vulnerable situation.
And let them use their phones for days to call for help? Oh brother
of course someone in that village had done that murder because Humans are unpredictable they become uncivilized morons specially Men when they look at young child or women.. not all but girls should be careful in asian countries
@@brettlawson9488 the murderers likely did that to make it look like it wasn’t foul play, same with the random night photos taken 8 days after they went missing. Don’t be naive
@@brettlawson9488 Who said the girls used the phones?
@@kennethmacalpin7655 so the killers were calling 911 for 3 days 😂 makes sense
I can totally understand the women getting so lost that they couldn't find their way back. What's weird is that multiple experienced local searchers couldn't find them.
this is the part that I just don't buy. They scoured the jungle looking for those girls for weeks and months and then suddenly their belongings and body parts just show up scattered randomly throughout the jungle, found at places that had previously been searched? People think it's so far fetched and ridiculous to suspect foul play but like how the hell do you explain that angle? It really leads to their remains and belongings being planted there
Super wierd. They just showed up mounths later in pieces what the hell happend to them. I mean SOMETHING have happend but what 😱😱
@@oliviahernandez9777 Same way that woman went missing on the Appalachian trail and search dogs got within 100 yards of her tent. Sometimes, these things happen
The parents went there and made a video. There was literally no way to get lost on this trail.
@@everybodyyogastudio212 The Photos they made show they went past the end of the Pianista trail, into the jungle. That is why they got lost.
My sister was hiking last year and by a mess up they only brought half the water they needed. They made it within a half a mile from the beginning of the trail and her husband left her to get help. She was shocked by how much her brain function was impaired by heat stroke. She said she could not have made competent decisions. And it came on quick. They had rationed water once they realized their mistake.
That's what I was thinking with the failed code entries on the phone.
@@nighttrain1236 absolutely
Bekah Thorton: your point is well taken. Whether the physiological insult is overheating, hypothermia, or dehydration, our brains will start to malfunction rather quickly. Fatigue, lack of sleep, no food (after about 3-4 days), painful injuries all take a bit longer to addle our brains than the big three (heat, cold, dehydration) do.
Also people fail to know how important salt is as well when hiking in hot climates.
@@tdmccoy1211 exactly electrolytes.
There isn't any case that haunts me as this one does...and that's saying something. This case is unreal.
Look at the unsolved case of the two girls murdered in Delphi, Indiana.
This case makes my soul deeply disturbed..I really believe something weird out of this world happen to them :( & I don’t wanna know
same
@Nikki Venable - me too, the death of these two girls is so disturbing and nothing makes sense. I feel someone else had their phones, that explains the strange photos, forgotten pin, and lack of message from the girls.
Same...i had a panic attack the first time I read about it
I haven’t I’ve seen this one. I don’t know how I missed it bc I’ve been watching Grande every day for a long time. Let’s gooo!
Two young women out in the woods, what could possibly go wrong. So many young adventurers end up losing their lives tragically.
And they were nice looking
They were not lost. They were murdered. If you do a little more digging it is extremely unlikely that you will draw any other conclusion.
The locals were not even sure the girls ever made it to the trail and there was plenty of people around the area, besides both the restaurant owners, taxi driver and pictures indicate a different time.
It is very likely nothing was found at the trail for months, because they were not lost at the trail. They were falsely told to wait for a bus which rarely comes and likely caught a ride with whoever led them to their deaths.
,two girls hiking alone in a foreign country through the jungle and up a mountain is an invitation for a predator. People don’t understand how dangerous hiking can be. Women are vulnerable in a situation like this. I’ve gotten lost walking in the forest close to where I started. It’s easy to do.
i think that predator already knew about their journey and he wait for them,,
Absolutely bloody daft. It makes my blood boil to hear of such abject stupidity. Those jungles are deadly. My parents are from that region and I went for a 6 week trip over 40 years ago. I still haven’t forgiven them!! My own children have never been there because it’s too bloody dangerous. What in God’s name were they thinking?
@@JayJordanJuly im not saying no,,¿but why go back to where they were and leave 33 bones of them?it was to leave the signature
@@JayJordanJuly ¿can you explain more?what kind of bloody dangerous?canibals?
@Lesley Russell : Snakes. There are several species that are constrictors and I’m clear that human bones do not fare well inside a constrictor. If that’s not enough then there are dozens of species of poisonous snakes living in Panama and nearby regions that can incapacitate a human in less time than it will take me to write this comment. Add to that the lizards, spiders, scorpions and centipede species that can disorient and kill in moments. Oh… and crocs can make a real mess of a tourist with a broken ankle.
I never go hiking without a compass and maps of the area, this has been instilled in me from my Boyscout days. My scout troop leader told us 2 stories of people who got lost and had no compass. One man died of expose just a quarter mile from Fishcamp Ca. The other was hiking a 8 mile loop in Yosemite back country. He was found 12 miles away from the hiking trail dead and partially eaten by animals. These stories scared me enough when I was 16 that I never forget these simple items in my day pack. You should also carry a couple emergency blankets a good hatchet and knife and flint or several lighters. Gerber has a great hatchet knife combo that easily fits into any day pack. Its better to have these items with you on a day hike and not need them then not having them when you get lost. Just having these items with me every time I hike puts me at ease.
Good thinking, indeed. All of that put together weighs very little.
They had a compass according to Kriss' father, but it doesn't matter because they weren't "Lost"
I live in Czech republic, Central Europe. You can hardly ever get ever then 2-3 miles from some bearest village.
But there is one tricky mountain range, or better elevated plateau, which is a national park. It is thick forrest full of marshes, fallen trees, ravines, boulder... Since ever it was known as incredibly tricky, unsurpassable and dangerous. Also the local weather can get extreme very fast, there are heavy storms there, and some places are surprizingly cold due to microclimate.
And people from abroad think "oh, this is cozy central Europe, super civilized, shops on every mile, nothing could go wrong".
@@charles1964 Not being able to use it as you have no map and never trained to orientate in the jungle. 40.000 people are documented as lost in US national parks and 50% of them were day packer like the dutch women.
I was in the jungles of Belize in 1988 when serving in the British army, and I can safely say you only need step 10 paces away from your hammock and you can become lost. Shouting just echos around the canopy and you could be walking further and further away from your position. Before long your lost. It’s possible they became separated due too being followed by somebody. My self I believe the guide and 1 other are involved and most likely have done this before.
The guide wasn’t with them
Yes I know, that’s why I believe he knew they had gone on the hike and at some stage followed on. He’s tried it on with others before.praying on single women.
@dish dog You should look up the guide, the information is out there on the web. This guide is an older guy, don't think women will admire him, even if he gets rich. Don't want to say, it must be foul play or an accident, I don't know, but there is a 2 part video series about the case, holding a lot of details. Life can be crazy but the number of coincidences around that case is noticable.
Hi Feliciano
@dish dog you get reacher organ harvesting
Once in a ‘developing’ country, a tour guide asked to borrow my camera for a pic and snuck off with it likely to steal it. I found him and then had to delete the numerous pics he had taken, loads of them random. I suspect he and his friends didn’t know how to use the camera. The night pics remind me of that- someone who isn’t familiar with a camera. What is strange, though, is why they’re often of the night sky as if they’re lying down or in a gully (the ones I’ve seen) and why no person/part of a person is ever in them.
There's a photo of Kremers' hair, fool.
I followed this case as I am Dutch. One of the strangest creepiest cases ever. The autopsy results 0_o
What did the autopsy show?
@@saradavis174 seconded
@@saradavis174 He said it in the video. Broken bones etc...
@@momentumstocks3493 No, he said they found only fragments of bones, 5-10% of the bodies. There were broken bones in the foot that was found, but they do need a body to conduct autopsy.
I wonder if the bone bleaching mentioned could be from the sun, or if it was in fact from chemicals. Does anyone know if there is more clarity in the autopsy report?
"as opposed to rude and super friendly". I see you've been to the south, well bless your heart! :D
🎯
🤣
How do you know? Because people in the south are rude? Except they say sir and ma’am so their rudeness is excused
@ozymandias nero nulifidian 😳
@@evantheking6218 - They are extremely polite, at times they can also intertwine an undercurrent of rudeness. I’ve experienced extremely kind Southerners, and also those whom are polite/guarded/yet rude, this combination feels a lot like gas lighting. Personally I think they are marking their emotionally territory.
In the North, where I grew up, people just tell it like it is. They can also be extremely nice people. It is extremely rare that they are both concurrently.
They went to the summit and continued down the Serpent Trail for a bit to check out a waterfall. Then they returned to the summit and back to town. Look at the photos, and you'll see them switch backpacks. If you're two people with one backpack, you'll have one person carry it one way, and then you'll switch. You won't switch constantly, the photos have been rearranged. The timestamps don't make sense, for example having their hair up and down only seconds apart. Multiple witnesses said they saw the girls return to town around 2-4pm. The girls met up with a small local gang of bandidos, 2 of whom are now dead because they started to crack. One of their mothers said her son told her he saw the girls in their red pickup truck. He drowned suspiciously. The taxi driver who took them to the trail also drowned suspiciously. Another gang member confessed to the mother he killed her son. He was run over suspiciously. There was a female witness, a girlfriend of the gang, who fled to Costa Rica after telling police the gang killed the girls. This information is out there if you look.
Your theory explains almost everything. How about the tour guide Feliciano and the way he behaved in the girls' room, spent 6 hours doing something nobody knows before he reported to the police, his house and farm not been searched and he urged the authority to close case ... etc ? Why ?
@@Sandoz-tq7qj Because his son was part of the gang that killed them, and he was covering his son's tracks. I don't know exactly what Feliciano did in their bedroom for half an hour, but I do know there was no legitimate reason for him to be in there for so long. I believe he was planting, removing, or otherwise tampering with evidence.
A mystery to say the least; deeply disturbing.
I’ve recently discovered your channel. Love your insight, intellect, & voice.
Terrifying. Just the thought of getting disoriented and lost in such a place, not to mention how it all ended up. Shivers.
Yea, they were murdered by someone too, you think an animal is gonna tear out a pelvic bone, rib cage, ankle and skin of a cheek? How do people not see this lmao, that’s what scares me
@Om Patel yep but not go that crazy
@Om Patel and it would leave bite marks and such
@@dahveedb7550 Bigfoot dose !
@Om Patel I don’t know if there are bears 🐻 in Panama. I’m gonna go with a big no
This is so, so sad, I almost wish I hadn't heard it but as ever, Dr Grande thank you for your analysis. I hate to think of them being lost and frightened, it's so hideous. Looking for even a tiny positive, we can only hope sharing this video warns other vulnerable people from taking similar risks. My heart goes out to them and their families, bless them all.
Yeah..sadly it's what many young people do. Take huge risk without even realising the risks. A professional explorer would have struggled with all the training, experience and equipment. Yet these two wade in with none of this. Nine out of ten times they get away with it by luck. But the 10th time ends badly. If only once they realised they were lost had stayed put i am sure they would have been found. IF that theory is the correct one.
I'm very familiar with this case as I am from the Netherlands myself. I have to say that I hear about this case more from foreign countries than from the Netherlands, seems weird but ofcourse all exposure is exposure. I really like your analysis videos. Keep up the good work. My support from the Netherlands ❤️
I started reading so much about this that I think there are at least 2 people that should be investigated but I don't want to name them. They are not the boys they met which they mention in their diaries. The diaries are huge clues in my opinion for a couple reasons. It shows they were positive about everything including the hot sun and heavy rain, and it all turned when they arrived in Boquete. When they were turned away after being told they had work. They said in the diaries that both them and the people they were staying with found it "strange". A couple days later they go missing. The tour guide says he was supposed to meet them the next day but there is no proof of that, yet he confirms this. Why did they never mention it in their diary? Also why did the tour guide go looking for them at their house that day? Do tour guides usually get very concerned if a client doesn't appear for a tour that they go searching for them around town including their residence? The tour guide also has a coffee farm in that jungle. So he just left his coffee farm, and everything he was doing to go look for 2 girls who didn't show up? Then finds their foot behind a tree?
The other reason I think the diaries are important is it shows they wrote in their diaries everyday. Lisanne even jokes "of course I'll fill you in" after she misses 3 days, and she even includes the dates. That was just a few days before the hike. So if they are using their cell phone every day to call 112 or 911, then why wouldn't at least 1 of them leave 1 message. If they tried sending a text, even if it doesn't send it's still there and sometimes sends when you reach a signal. They 1st call for Emergency on April 1st. The iPhone is turned on April 11th for 64 minutes and then shut off with 22% battery.
So that means after the cell phone is activated on April 11th, it must then be placed back into the backpack, zipped up, and end up next to a river. While a foot is behind a tree, and other bones are far away from each other. What river only rips people to shreds but leaves the backpack in perfect condition. Also, how are they taking photos near a boulder and trees on April 8th? Kris' hair was clean and only a little messy. We know it's Kris' hair because it's in focus and it's red hair.
Also I know somebody who was left for dead in Costa Rica, a country they visited right before going to Panama and he only survived because his friends went looking for him. He was bleeding for 14 hours after some locals in a truck pushed him off the side of the road when he was on his ATV. I started reading about other stuff too like robberies on the trail, and other people's experiences they had while on the trail and what they saw. Many saying it seems very hard to get lost unless you really wanted to go into the jungle, these girls packed light and 1 has asthma. Also the parents say they aren't dumb and I agree.
Plus I read in 2020 police walked into the middle of a satanic ritualistic sacrifice taking place in the Jungle in a hut that looked like a small church by some religious sect claiming they were "anointed by God". Victims included pregnant women, and children. They were also from the same Tribe that turned in the backpack of the 2 missing girls.
@dish dog sooo..why didn't they write what happened if they were calling 911🤔
I think the reason why they didn't make a video with the camera is because they were trying to preserve the battery to use the camera's flash to light their way, poor girls. I think the failure to remember the pin code for the phone is evidence of the panic and anxiety they felt at this time. Really heartbreaking for their family
That makes so much sense! And it is extremely scary.
I think the wrong pins where from the other girl that didnt know the pin. The owner of the phone was dead at that time.
@@ekLuca Yes, I think so, too. Even if her friend had thought to tell her the PIN before she died, it’s easy to forget someone else’s PIN.
They may also not have been of sound mind, if they were delirious from heatstroke, dehydration or hunger, if they weren't familiar with the local flora and ate something poisonous, or if they were bitten by some venomous animal or got an infection. As well as the panic and anxiety, there's a lot of conditions in the jungle that can make you not act rationally.
Oddly enough most phones have built in torch facilities which the girls could’ve used, camera flashes are ineffective to light anyone’s way.
the odd photos of the night sky and Lisannes hair make me think of when my kids get hold of my camera witthout knowing how to operate it. You end up with pics like that.
These were 20+ year old girls...they know how to take pictures. They may not have known, tho, that you don't need the camera code to dial 911.
@@bettywith2girls she's not referring to the girls, someone else that didn't know how to use a cell, maybe the person who killed the girls.
@@bettywith2girls The pictures were taken with a separate digital camera, not their phones.
they look odd because they are taken by somebody lay on their back and pointing it upward at various angles. a very sad sign they were trying to signal for help.
To me this were exactly the kind of pictures I would expect if a person that is lost, desperate and may even had to watch her friend die from injury, exposure, some plant or insect she was allergic to, or whatever ...
If such a person starts to understand that the phone is no use there, that she can't call emergency services, and has no idea where she is..
If she then starts to use the flash as a light source, tries to make pictures to help her with orientation and hopes that at night someone might see the flashlight..
They were searched, the ones who searched and the girls have to be close a few times, maybe close enough that the girls heard something and at night a flashlight is the best "answer" to that.
That would produce exactly those kind of pictures that where found on the camera.
I see no foul play here, no killer.. "just" a really tragic accident.
This is such a mysterious case and literally hurts my soul thinking about what could have happened everytime you think you have the answer there’s evidence that’s throws you a curve ball it’s really crazy to think about and I hope it gets solved one day for certain
From what I’ve read about this case, and summaries of the evidence in videos, it’s clear that the conclusion they simply weren’t prepared and “fell,” or “fell into the stream,” is only possible by ignoring a great deal of the physical evidence.
Assuming no assailant was involved, I don’t think they could have survived for several days in the conditions there, given the sparse contents of the backpack-they were indeed ill-prepared. They would have died of dehydration very quickly. But the backpack was found after 4 months, and there’s no way there would have been no damage to it or the contents of it had been exposed to jungle conditions for that long. It wasn’t waterproof.
The bones of one of the girls were bleached. No explanation for that, if those bones had lain in the jungle for weeks or months. None of the bones had marks of any kind, yet they were widely scattered. If animals had scattered the bones, they would have had marks from the animals’ teeth on them. One bone had tissue & skin left on it. I would argue that is impossible in wet, jungle conditions. Even assuming predators or large scavengers somehow did not find it, insects certainly would have consumed any flesh or skin over such a long time.
These things each, individually, argue against the “simple” explanation; together, they make it extremely improbable. And that’s ignoring the more esoteric questions of behavior. Why would they go on further into the jungle rather than returning on the trail they climbed up on? Assuming the backpack wasn’t in anyone else’s possession after they died, then they had no more than one bottle of water left between them for the entire time it would have taken them to return. They were intelligent, and would have known they had inadequate water at that point, even if they hadn’t realized this before. They would have headed back, and would have encountered other people on the well-used trail.
The tour guide’s behavior seems suspicious. He reported them missing, but only art the end of the day, and AFTER he had searched their room for 30 minutes with no one else present. He then inserted himself into the search and investigation-very suspicious. (On the other hand, if he was involved, shouldn’t he have been missing at that time, and for several days after?)
I personally don’t think the video of one girl’s brothers enjoying themselves months later (as suggested by another commenter) implies anything. I’ve lost many loved ones, and I know that grief, even when it lasts for years, doesn’t necessarily mean that you are in abject misery at all times, and unable to enjoy anything at all, or even to laugh, at times. Grief is a wave; it washes over you, recedes, and washes over you again, over and over, for a long time.
There are a lot of peculiar things about this sad case. But there’s a lot of evidence that seems to have been ignored, in spite of not readily fitting either narrative.
That is the best analogy for grief I have ever heard.
I think the truth may have elements of both. It is possible they simply got lost at first, going off the trail trying to find the waterfall or something else or maybe they were frightened by something and tried to escape by going off the trail and then got lost. They wandered in the jungle for days, one of the two girls sustained some sort of injury, maybe the picture of the back of one head was trying to see if there was any bleeding or visible head injury. I think it's likely one of the girls died a fair bit earlier than the other one and the remaining girl tried to use her phone and continue. And it is possible that THEN the surviving girl was found by someone who had ill intent who abused her and killed her, disposing of her remains later on.
The idea someone was stalking them in the jungle for days makes very little sense to me, and knowing about other incidents where a search and rescue party had people with ill intent in it who abused the person they were supposed to save, I think it's possible someone who knew the area well knew the girls were missing and vulnerable, found them and abused that.
Them having different deaths at different times from different causes would also explain the inconsistency between the remains. One of the two had much more natural and expected decay. The other looked too clean to have been out there for as long. If one girl died of natural causes and the surviving girl was found, abducted and murdered later, that would explain it.
I believe that it was murder! It was NOT an accident! NO WAY! I hope that truth does come ! There needs to be justice for Kris and Lisanne! There are millions of us that don't believe the narrative that the Panamanian government put out!
If there is any consolation most people of interest are now dead (under mysterious circumstances). There is one still wandering around freely. An innocent expat was also killed after he threatened to expose the perpetrators.
Juan Monsuwe has some great videos and Scarlet have been on this case for years! Rick Kleland's TH-cam video seems right on with his theory!
for the bones, apparently the sun is what bleached them.
Or they were taken somewhere snd then remains were scattered later. Also the tour guide has a coffee farm in the area, and the fact that je found most of the bones is very concerning along with the picture that was deleted and the reviews of him that are public by other women who went on the tour with him by themselves. He has good reviews by couples, both single female reviews considered him dangerous and said they felt unsafe
Can we have an analysis on how Dr. Grande never sleeps? Content queen.
Hahaha imagine Dr Grande 2am locked in his studio, his wife pounding on the studio door, "Todd, for God's sake, when are you coming to bed? It's 2 am! Okay, that's it. I'm donating all these cases of red bull energy drinks..."
Not sure how he would feel about being called a queen, lol. Content king, maybe?
@@annickalexander oh boy it's gettin deep in here hahaha
And he always does such thorough research. More than most on TH-cam.
When he's not researching and recording he's cooking a la his "Hello Fresh" demonstration! 🤣🤣
I am from the Netherlands and that case was very disturbing and on the news every day
Love Dr. Grande's dry sense of humor in these videos!
I'm glad you touched on the lack of a recorded message - this has always intruiged me as it seems the obvious thing to do but they didn't do it. Why?
So glad you covered this case! I’ve read so much about it, and I’ve never been satisfied with the answers.
Rebeca Stevens, I agree. Nothing really ads up. This sad case never goes away in my mind.
I don't think we will ever have the answers in this mysterious case. Too many inexplicable events and contradicting evidence.🤔
@@carmenfender4793 Yes I will agree. So much to consider and too few answers.
I’m a very experienced thu hiker. It’s incredibly easy to lose your way in a forest and I’ve met plenty of lost day hikers on the trail who were lost within minutes of the parking lot. One lady was in the process of fighting her way deeper into the underbrush when I called to her from the obvious and wide trail I was standing on. She was less than five minutes from her car.
A full blown tropical jungle is a whole other story. Day hikers tend to panic and hike deeper off trail in an attempt to seek a high ground. This compounds their mistakes until they die of injury or hypothermia.
I disagree with the opinion of this video on two points. 1) falls are the second most common reason people die in the wilderness, so finding fractured long bones is not even unusual. 2) a jungle ecosystem’s ant population will pick a decaying pelvic bone clean within a day or two at most.
Those are weak points. Besides the video final conclusion was they got lost, went wrong direction and died. So your 2 points actually support the video, not disagree with it..
1) There is no evidence of any fall at all. Even the medical report was unable to determine any cause of death from what lil was found. Fractured and fragmented are 2 different things. There was only one bone that was fractured, the foot, which is not consistent with a fall. It is more consistent of something falling on the foot. So no they did not find fractured long bones. They found A fractured foot.
2) There is nothing unusual with finding cleaned off bones out in the wild after some time period. What is unusual and can not be explained is how did those clean bones become bleached? They were not in the Sun long enough for that. And ants do not bleach bones. Worse. Why did ants pick and clean off only one persons (Kris) bones scattered all over the jungle. And not the other person. What did the ants not like how the other person tasted or something? Sorry but that would only explain some of the bones, in particular those of only one of them. And it does not even fully explain all of it from that one person (Kris). And why were most of the bones found by the Guide or one of the guide assistants. There were tons of people looking, including locals, but only mainly one person could find bones scattered all over. Yea right.
Both of your points are weak, does not fully explain either point entirely and is no evidence for either of those points. All they are is speculation and not even a very good speculation at that.
Could they have simply got lost, yes. They could just as easily been abducted too. There are far too many oddities and issues with the entire story. Way too many questions that does not fit the given official local reason. It does not help that local authorities did a horrible job at any investigation and even though they hinted there might be foul play, they never even seriously looked at such.
@@kevinfisher1345 Let's try again. Falls and exposure are the two top most common reasons why people die in the backcountry, particularly those who are day hiking and have limited experience. This is simply a fact. Not sure why you'd call that a weak point but it is what it is.
1) A death from exposure is actually a very logical reason why no cause of death was able to be determined because it leaves no evidence that can be determined from bones, thereby making my point even more likely.
2) A broken foot will very much keep anyone from hiking out from broken terrain.
3) The "how did so many searchers not find anything" is a common argument posed by normies who have little to no experience in how incredibly vast wilderness actually is.
Search parties fail to find lost hikers every year without any conspiracy including nefarious rangers, murder or aliens being necessary . The areas are simply too vast, covered by foliage and broken. Same goes for people who just can't believe why a crashed airliner can't be found in an ocean. They fixate on a known - the size of an airliner, with no experience of the unknown, - ever having crossed a vast ocean as I have numerous times.
Of course my points are speculation, - based on the statistically most likely outcome in this case. Unless you have some evidence to contradict the most likely reasons why these two died in the wilderness, you have even less to add. So far your argument consists of not believing - without contradictory evidence, that a guide found the bones and of finding it odd that her bones were bleached, - except that they were her bones. That's not a counterargument.
@@teutonalex Yes I already read that you stated the top 2 causes of deaths for those out in the wilderness. That is under NORMAL circumstances. This has far too many things in questions and oddities with the entire story so clearly is not necessarily normal circumstances. It may or may not be. It is weak because the official investigation nor you have shown any evidence at all that even points to this might have been the case. This world is complex and there are TONS of other reasons one might die being out in the wilderness as well.
You might as well say they died from heart problems or cancer because those are the top 2 reasons for death in the world. Just simply make that statement and show no evidence to support it. That does not make it true and mean that is how they died. Smh!
1) NO NO NO. The reason they were unable to determine cause of death is because they recovered such a small portion. And what they did recover showed no signs of anything abnormal or showed why they might have died. PERIOD!!! That is what is logical. As such we have no idea what the cause of death is. I would agree that yes normally one would look at the most common problems or causes. But again there are far too many instances that shows this is possibly anything but normal.
2) Irrelevant. That was a well traveled and EASY trail. Not some unbroken difficult terrain. The locals used it every day, and even with its livestock traveling the trail. Not only was it an easy trail, it was short. AND there are people that live along that trail. Being able to hobble back or hobble far enough to find local living right off the trail is not that difficult. Now IF this had been the other trail they allegedly went to first and started up, only to come back 15 minutes later when they hit the steep part of the trail, yea maybe. But this was a single easy trail that was impossible for anyone to get lost on. I seen video of the parents taking that trail and seen parts of the actual trail in the video as well as heard all the locals say that no one should have gotten lost on such a single easy trail with no other crossing trails.
3) I fully agree with you. I have done a lot of hiking and have known some people that were on volunteer search and rescue that had to do this many times. So yes I am aware of this .... for trails actually out in the remote isolated areas with difficult terrain. But again this was not the case here. A simple, easy and single short trail. One would have to go out of the way to get off the trail before that would happen. One would have had to continue on that trail far longer, continuing north before that would have been a possibility. I do not know for sure as have not seen any footage that far along the trail. It sounds like that is implied it becomes more remote much further down the trail, but Idk. THIS is the biggest possibility of how they might have died under normal typical circumstances. To have continued past the last point taken on the camera 2 hours hike past the summit. The question becomes why would they have continued hiking north when it was starting to get late in able to return back before night and they were clearly not prepared for anything more then a half day hike. You really should see actual footage of the trail.
An airliner across a vast ocean LMAO. This is a great analogy yet not how you think. I have crossed oceans on a boat many times. I know how vast the Pacific Ocean is mate. And have crossed on planes a couple of times. So what you are trying to imply is that if one took an airline across a vast ocean along a well known flight path. So long as they stayed on the plane following that well trodden path (trail), they would get to their destination. Only unless they hopped off that plane and path could they possibly get lost.
" your argument consists of not believing" WRONG.
My argument is we simply do not have enough evidence to say one way or another how they might have died or what happened to them. There are too many questions and conflicts and simply a horrible police investigation done. One can not simply say oh this is how most people die and then try and pretend this is like normal circumstances when what evidence we do have shows there are many things that should have been questioned and investigated at the time. None of that happened. So my biggest question is WHY?
Tbh, I do not know if foul play was involved or not and the sad thing is we likely will never know. What really gives me pause are the some questionable weird things such as condition of backpack plus in found in a spot that had already been looked at couple days prior. Plus condition of bones and odd difference between the two of them. But those could be explained without foul play being involved. MAYBE a local did find the backpack earlier for example but decided to keep it. Only later maybe another local advised them that was not wise considering the nation attn, so they put it back. Who knows. These are all things that should have been looked into properly at the time and maybe we would know more but that clearly did not happen.
I think they knew someone was watching them hence the weird pictures, maybe they even made it back and were overtaken, and as for the phone attempts 1 girl watched the other girl die a horrible death , the answers are in the photos
@@One-Ring-To-Rule-Them-All It is easy to get turned around and lose your sense of orientation temporarily. It is just as easy to re-orient yourself regardless of getting your bearings thrown off. How many years experience did you say you had again, or better yet what was the level of that experience and hiking you have done :/
But someone that is not used to hiking a lot I would not expect them too. HOWEVER, that is actually out in the wilderness that is not a single heavily used and well worn trail like this was. One simply could not get lost going down that trail (at least portion they claimed they were going to hike and had the first day) unless they specifically tried too. Anyone that has actually seen footage of going down this trail would know this. If they got lost going down that trail would be because they kept on going north and way beyond the point they could return back before night fall or specifically went out of their and left the clear trail. Sorry but the reality is this is all mere speculation and conjecture. And we will likely never know the actual true cause.
If you've ever been lost in the wilderness yourself (I have several times, and observed it once in a young woman the same age as the girls in this video), you'd agree with Dr Grande's final view of what likely happened. People who've never been lost in deep nature don't appreciate the fear that takes over an inexperienced hiker - it's the panic-fear that makes one automatically do the opposite of what one should do. It's not like your car's GPS stops working on a road trip. It's more like falling off a cruise ship and watching it disappear over the horizon.
Not to mention what starvation and dehydration can do to you, which would not surprise me if they both suffered from that as well. We also cannot forget the likely hypothermia the girls would have faced at night as we could see they were obviously not clothed to be on in the jungle in the middle of the night.
@@sirmang9032 Indeed, their entire experience would have been a continual downward spiral. The final horrible phase would have been a realization of impending death, when complete mental paralysis and possibly hallucinations would have set in.
Ironically, if mental paralysis had set in during the initial phase of being lost, it likely would have saved them, because it would have made it much easier for rescue searchers to find them if they'd just stayed in one place much closer to the trail.
What you say is no doubt true! However, it doesn’t explain other, odd details. Like the backpack being in pristine condition when it had supposedly been out in the elements for some time when it was found. Also, there were no animal tooth marks on the bones to account for the scattering, or the total lack of flesh, and the bleaching was not ‘natural.’ I suppose insects could have eaten the flesh, yet there was also a preserved roll of skin found. I’ve read about this case and the more you know, the more puzzled you can become….
@@goldenlass9488 A likely explanation for the backpack being in pristine condition is that early on a local found it there on the riverbank (a fairly common place for locals to gravitate to), took it home, then returned it intact when they found out the two girls were missing so they didn't get implicated in a crime.
As for the condition of the remains, absence of animal marks and other puzzling factors about how they degraded doesn't point to the girls being murdered, since animals and other natural factors would have occurred (or failed to occur) regardless of how the girls actually died. Absence of animal marks may only indicate that animals in that fertile environment were finding plenty of food as it is and didn't need to scavenge.
@@craigfinnegan8534 I agree about the backpack possibility. I also follow your logic about the remains! I am no expert, but I’ve read about this case and watched other videos where more information was provided, and possible explanations were analyzed at length. It’s been a while, but I recall there are indications that the condition of the remains suggests they were ‘processed’ by human hands and then dispersed where they would be found. The government seemed to want to rush to declare there was no foul play. They put out a storyline that one of the women likely fell into the water and broke her ankle, and her remains were scattered downstream by the water. This scenario was reportedly refuted by a forensics expert. If you’re interested, you can find a lot of information about this case online. Taking it all with a grain of salt, but there don’t seem to be clear-cut answers or a consensus on what [likely] occurred. Horrible for the families!
I have watched this case many times; And all times I come out confused as the last. I feel for the parents these two souls. What a horrible way to lose a loved one not real knowing what happened to them ;-(
Mysterious and very sad. This one reminds me of when you take wrong turn and after having realised it, you decide to continue on rather than go back on yourself and take a safer route. We seem to have a tendency not to go back as this implies wasted effort. For those of us who know chess, it's analogous to playing an opening move with a piece and then retreating to its starting square a few moves later. Even when this is the best move available, a player is psychologically adverse to it. We are more likely to move it to another square regardless.
kennyj851, I have sort of thought like you about their situation. They were young and strong hikers. They could have just turned back, word has that there were not many turns on that trail.
It's called the sunken cost fallacy.
I remember this being quite big on Dutch television so it's interesting to hear your perspective
Luna did you see the girls parents retracing the hike? It is awful the way the volunteering didn't work out. If the dates were correct, they could still be alive.🧚♂️☘
@@finolaomurchu8217 I saw, no parents should ever have their children die before themselves. In one of the last new articles released the parents of Kris said that almost all their questions were answered and that they were working through the loss and that they at least don’t have to ponder about what happend. They also thanked everyone who was involved in helping. May the women rest in peace and the parents have peace of mind
Wanneer was dat?
Are there cocoa fields or cartel activity near by?
@@lunar_dreams +1 ~~9~~7~~2~~~ 9~~~4~~7-~~~8~~~5~~~3~~~7
W~~~h~~~a~~~~t~~~s~~~a~~~p~~~p~~~Tell him I directed you.
Interesting case, don't even know where to start with it. Thank you for the video.
10:50 There were no photos taken after the initial attempts to call emergency services with the possible exception of the missing photo 509 (we don't know when that one was taken). Photo 475 was the first one taken of the trail (apparently, it features the trailhead but it has yet to be released to the public) at 11:08, before they began their hike. Photo 508 was taken at 13:54 then, at an unknown time photo 509 was taken. At 16:39 and 16:51, they made their first attempts to call emergency services. There are no more pictures after photo 509 until the 8th when the night photos were taken.
Hey Dr. Grande. Why are serial gang murderers not looked at the same as other serial killers. Generally I feel like when a crime is gang related the mental aspects are ignored. I think a video looking into the mentality of street gang members turned serial murders would be really interesting!
Because proof-by-consensus, while a fallacious argumentum ad populum, is still a fundamental part of our mind's determination process. So decisions made with proof-by-consensus are given leeway when making moral judgements.
@ozymandias nero nulifidian We care less about whether an action is good or bad, as more people do that action.
Excellent suggestion!!!
That is a great idea! Perhaps it has to do with the perceived innocence of victims? A serial killer murdering innocent people will be major news. Where I’m from, unless a drive by shooting (for example) injures or kills an ‘innocent’ person or child it isn’t really handled the same way.
We often see interest in a serial killers upbringing, psych profile, political views etc. but not really for gang based serial killers. Great idea for a topic
Group mentality. Frightening.
Don't go hiking in the jungle kids. Stay home and watch Dr. Grande instead.
@@SupernaturalBeingsofEarth research findings*
interest*
@@SupernaturalBeingsofEarth You "ain't that good" at writing. How can you expect to be taken seriously?
don’t have to tell me twice
Oh no,you can go on the couch when you’re retired-you should use your youth to explore the world!
But of course you always have to use your brain 🧠!
Just learn the basics of cqc and youre good to go
My mom got lost in a local park for about 3 hours with an old boxer dog and my 3 year old cousin at the time. She just ignored the signs and walked slow behind us. Had to use a loud car exhaust to make enough noise for her to come back and she still had cell service. It was stressful. 😅 I would never go to a foreign country and explore the rural areas without a map or guide or cell service.
I remember this story. I can’t imagine what happened to these 2 young women.. regardless of all the clues that were uncovered. I was surprised that all of the electronic equipment and cash were still there. It was a bit suspicious that clothes were found.. unless they went for a swim as you mentioned it was hot there. The partial “bleached bones” is a very strange piece to this story..
The fact that the camera and phones and cash were not missing provided me with no significant clues.. .. just more questions…. but the story is one missing a major portion of the plot. Very much a mystery. Sad that families got no closure. Again.. I Remember hearing about this disappearance a while ago… but your research offered a lot of new information I had never heard. This story is disturbing and even with much more detail that I learned here from you .. still quite a mystery! Sad for their loved ones.. when there is no real closure.
Regardless, thanks Dr. Grande for your research that brought us likely as much clarity as we may ever get.
I think some of their behavior, like the phone pin issue, was likely a result of them being delirious. Hunger, dehydration, heat stroke, eating something poisonous, or just panic.
To me it makes more sense if one of them did die or get seriously injured first, and so the other girl was trying to guess what her friend's pin was after the fact.
@@kevlarcardhouse252 Most likely was Froon, because it was her phone that died first. Kremer may have unfortunately no longer been able to open her own phone, and Froon, made last attempts to call for help. I'm assuming she was the one who made the pictures, possibly including Kremer's bloody head to hopefully send out to anyone of their dire situation.
Unfortunately, help will never come. I'm still confused about the twig with plastic bags on it, however. What were they, or atleast Froon, attempting to do with it? What was it for?
Their backpack was found with some water and food still in it.(This may be false info.)
@@CC-xn5xi No, there wasn't. There may have been an empty water bottle but even that is unconfirmed.
@@kevlarcardhouse252 Ok, I may have the wrong info.
Imagine just going out for a hike to kill time and getting lost in a foreign country. They went to the end of the trail where there was signage, but decided to go beyond that point instead of turning back. And what really happened is a total mystery!
There were no signs at that time
I can imagine it...that’s why I would NEVER do it!! Nope, no way!!
@@marybodnar4749 I think it’s easier to make mistakes when you’re in a group. On your own, you’re smart enough not to take risks. You feel a lot safer when you’re with other people.
Such a stupid decision, honestly! I am not trying to be rude but really... Wtf they were thinking???
There's details you left out that I've read about. The backpack was found at the edge of a trail by a lady that regularly passed the area daily. It wasn't there before. Everything in the back was neat and untouched. Definitely didn't look like something being lost in the woods for 3 months. I also heard that other people's remains were also found
The back pack was found at a river bank by a local woman. It had light damage and dirt inside from being in the water but considering the condition of the girls remains the bag was in relatively good condition.
1. Yes you absolutely can bleach your hair with the 🌞 especially if hair was previously dyed. Centuries ago this way was popular in Italy.
2. I bet all those "weird" photos was made at night just to scare animals with flashlight.
3. Between dying message & saving battery to scare animals away what would you choose?😢. They was young and optimistic hoping someone would find them till the end.
Dr. Grande, there are no day photo's taken after the first attempt to call 911, as you indicate around 11:08 in your video. The last daytime photo (Kris at the bank of a small stream) was taken around 14.00 hrs, the first distress call was at 16.39 hrs.
I thought that too. My thought is the missing picture was unflattering because they were starting to get worried, and one of them wanted to delete it for that reason.
I wonder if what he said was true about it having been deleted after the first nighttime picture. I imagined their deleting it soon after, the camera going to the next number for the night photos, and the deleted photo memory sectors being overwritten or police lacked the forensic skills to recover a deleted photo.
@@CharlesGervasi It is a fact that photo 509 could only be deleted with a computer. Otherwise the 509 would've been overwritten. I know someone who tested it with exactly the same camera Lisanne had. The new photo got the same number as the deleted photo. The camera does not skip numbers.
The deleted photo 509 was taken way before the batch of nighttime photo's. It concluded the set of daytime pictures and was taken after the photo of Kris at the bank of the stream. It is highly speculated someone or something incriminating was on that picture. Maybe it's the sole reason Lisanne and Kris aren't alive right now.
A lot of things do not add up in this case, but the weirdest thing to me, is the absence of messages from Kris and Lisanne. Yes, they assumingly called 911/112 (Dutch 911) on several days, but no text messages in draft, no video messages (via camera, which still was powered when it was found months later), no daytime photo's of their surroundings. In most cases where people are lost or trapped in the wilderness and a device or pen and paper are present, they leave a message.
You can find the stories on TH-cam, from a hiker laying on a ledge (sending her 'last' text to her mum and taking a picture, even when she had no internet connection) to a guy who got trapped in the mountains, but kept a diary on a map until his death. After the instant shock and panic, people will communicate. Certainly when they're alive for a week or more, like Lisanne and Kris.
@@Kanarie1973 Wrong - 509 could be deleted after 510 was taken and it would not be overwritten at that point. Only if it was deleted before the next picture was taken would it be overwritten.
@@TheHaratashi Experiments were taken with exactly the same camera. If you delete 509 manually on the camera, it is gone, but can be restored by computer. Only if you use a computer to delete a photo from the Canon camera, you can erase it permanently.
@@Kanarie1973 my thought on last words is that those people were singular..we are a species desperate for communication (tom hanks cast away)..these girls were together..it gives a false sense of bravado
It is not hard to imagine the terror they felt as time went on.
I don't know...It would be hard for me to imagine given I've never been in that type of situation. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's almost unimaginable.
I don't think they would go by themselves and in the photos they were close to their destiny (the waterfall), I don't think they could even be that close without a tour guide, btw a british guy mysteriously went missing there before in 2009 his name is Alex Humphrey
@@SL-ze6su They don't call it the Lost Waterfall for nothing, Kris and Lisanne would not have tried to find it without a ...GUIDE.
I think them trying to contact emergency services more than 100 times and the camera suddenly taking more than 100 photos in a middle of a night shows us that as they fell into despair, they were trying just about anything to survive. If that's not the result of absolute terror I don't know what it is
@@kebas239 : Because you’re not stupid enough to try anything remotely like that?
Very interesting video. Thank you!
They never tried to call or text a family member back home. Some thing is wrong. If no foul play was involved they would have been able to text home given they were able to connect to 911 at one point. Also if one had been injured after leaving the other they would have left message on how to find the other
I went to Boquete alone as a female backpacker and it was creepy.
I also had the plan to hike to a waterfall. I checked into a hostel and had a private room. When i went shopping, a latino guy who also lived at the hostel(he was working and not a traveler) started a conversation with me and it became a bit odd. He basically asked for my plans and then "made the deal" that we both go Together to the waterfall.
That night there was a party at the hostel.i do not drink and stayed in my room reading a book. At 1am everybody had gone to sleep and suddenly the creepy guy knocked on my door for ages...i was panicky,especially since my room was far from all others and the lock was not good. But the guy left and i hear him ZIP SOMETHING UP outside my room.maybe he already had his thing out? Haha
The problem was that the american owner of the hostel slept in his own house somewhere else...we were kind of on our own if something happened.
It was a creepy situation and after NEVER having any problem backpacking in australia,new Zealand, fiji,USA,europe,et guys are very persistent in latin america and i suddenly had creepy situations a lot.
So i would not doubt that they came across someone creepy after getting lost..but wow..crazy case that Both died!
The sad thing is how these young women could be so naive. Just getting alone in a latin american country as two young white females is a risk, you would stand out very strongly and attract all sort of predators of human and non human categories. And before anyone call me names, I'm from latam so I know how sometimes little value is given to human life there. I am not saying they deserved any harm, just that there are some regions of the world you should not go alone as a young female. Even a young couple would be at some risk if they go out the main cities. And these women went to a somewhat remote place.
This is a problem with naive schooling, you need to make young people understand that human life is most valued in the "advanced" world than in other places in this planet. If you decide to go to a remote place outside the first world you need to be aware of all the risks and take precautions accordingly. If I had to advise them (and had some respect from them) I would have told them in clear terms that even as volunteers latam is no place to go unless you really know the institution you are going to. It seems they did not have a clear idea of what the were going into as they even arrived too early giving them time to make more mistakes (first one was signing up to volunteer at some unknown place, they would had told them to stay with them that week to be safe and protect them from the predators if they were legit).
@@peterbingen9583 Some men are creepy anywhere, not only in Latinamerica. I am a latina and can tell very well that I have found men in USA and Europe with this creepy attitude too. Sometimes men in those countries tend to think if you are a latina you are an easy woman, and it happens the same with latinos who think american and european girls are always flirty. Unfortunately, women need to be alert all the time :S
My theory is the tourist guide ambushed the girls saying more people would do the trail or told people they would be there, in photos the girls were close to the waterfall and I doubt they could achieve this alone and they were educated people who wanted to volunteer working with children and locals, I doubt they were carefree young people being reckless. Plus a british guy disappeared there in 2009 (before them), his name is Alex Humphrey.
There's a lot of weird information about this 2013 case: someone professionally deleted photos from their camera (by inserting the camera sd into a computer), backpack magically being placed somewhere, the last camera photos were days after their disappearance being the deleted photo before those ones, a dog accompanied them and the next day the dog were in the city
@@peterbingen9583 I would say that just being in a Latin American country is a risky undertaking.
@@SL-ze6su The dog, supposedly, returned they same day they took him/her (the dog), not the next day. I use the word "supposedly" because, on Reddit and other forums, you'll find people who claim a dog never went with the girls in the first place. Based on all I've read over the years, I do kind of believe that they were initially accompanied by a dog that belonged to the owner of a restaurant that is near the host family's home. I assume that the dog simply took off at some point and, possibly, in an attempt to catch said dog, Lisanne and Kris got themselves lost. Then again, I could be entirely wrong about this because, truth be told, there is no sign of a dog in any photos I've seen. I would think he/she would have been captured in, especially, the early ones, but nope. Perhaps, the story of a dog being with them was a misunderstanding or a lie. I just don't know anymore.
This was such a haunting case. Great video, Dr. Grande!
These girls had a habit of documenting everything and kept journals/diaries, yet they didn't write down anything about being in trouble or film themselves about their "trouble" - nothing. And neither were in the photos after a certain point. It's pretty obvious they were attacked by someone.
they probably did but the attacker probably got rid of it
I think this is what happened here:
In addition to abduction, rape and satanic ritual sacrifice, they harvested and sold their organs!
That’s why next to nothing was found of them.
Very very tragic case! God rest those young naive innocent souls... :((
It was just a very bad choice of location, but no coincidence at all.
I’m thinking it was a trap and that school never really needs volunteers but just a set up to draw foreign girls in.
If they were trying to survive their first thought isn’t going to be documenting everything. Seems like they were trying to save the battery on their phones, too.
Great job. Thank you.
I did a impromptu home in nicaragua. It was an estimated 7 hour hike and was advised to only do so with a guide.
I thought I knew better and my companion and I headed off with little water and some light snacks.
I almost died.
I still believe these poor girls were murdered, and it was covered up by authorities to not scare tourists and affect the local tourism industry. Something is not right atall
I still don't understand how "murder" and cover up" fit in with everything that is known.
Even a "normal killer" would have had the chance to make sure that no evidence was ever found.
The authorities have even more ways to do so.
It is tragic, those girls shouldn't have died.
But that is why my father taught me since I can walk (even before, I grew pretty much in a "backpack" up that is desingnet to carry toddler on hikes):
1. Never leave the trail.
2. Never hike in unknown territory without a guide (one that does not just take you there but guides you)
For some reasons, the didn't do neither, they underestimated the dangers of the rain forest and the rain forest may be really beautiful, but it doesn't play games..
They made 2 mistakes and payed with their lives.
That should not happen, but it does.
@@fraukie1598 do you really think those girls would put themselves in risk going to that forest alone? Btw they WERE in the trail, something impossible to a tourist, do the math
@@SL-ze6su what??
@@SL-ze6su
Yes I do think that.
Look at the pictures:
The route they took is incredible pretty and just like so often out in the nature:
The danger by wondering of is invisible.
And "math" is kind of my point.
If I think of their death as an tragic accident, I have this one deleted photo that doesn't seem to fit.
If I think of foul play, there are tons of things that just won't make any sense.
Definitely murdered. Too many suspicious mysteries. Why the girls not record any messages, or try to send/post any messages to friends and family. Why the deleted photo, why the missing bodies. There are no pictures of the girls during the days they were missing, why not?, even when distressed they could have taken pictures/video to record where they were or their plight. How the rucksack had both girls phones in found like that, is way too suspicious. If the girls had access to their phones and knew they were really in trouble and could die, they would record a video or something or leave a message on their phone. The incorrect pin entries as well. This is no accident.
Myself, my brother, his friend, and a family dog planned to go for a short simple walk in the forest, near our 1/4 mile long gravel driveway. We planned to walk in a forward direction next to the driveway until we reaced the end. At some point, only a few minutes into our adventure, we got disoriented and ended up being lost in the woods for 4 hours until we found a pipeline that took us to a road miles from home. Getting lost in unfamiliar territory is easier than you think.
I am partial to the “panther with bottle of bleach” theory. Foreign travel is no joke. Be safe.
Hey that actually sounds pretty scary...."a panther with a bottle of bleach"😂. Still, if the bone's were bleached there's definitely human involvement. Possibly a se*ual assault and murder, maybe not a serial killer.
I'm from a place in Europe and have traveled South America, Africa, and Asia for years. I've once been to the US and it was actually the place where I felt the most unsafe especially at night time. I'm pretty sure the murder rate of travelers in developing countries is below the average of big cities in the US. Yes, while traveling you gonna be the victim of countless of (attempted) scams, but this is not the end of the world. The chance of being the victim of a serious crime is not that high in my opinion. Don't be afraid to travel, it's the most beautiful thing in the world. Just use common sense.
@@ralfzacherl9942 obviously if you travel to American cities it can be dangerous, just look at the murder rates. The problem is Europeans are so naive because they are accustomed to the peace in their own countries.
@@ralfzacherl9942 The murder rate in developmental countries - in particular South America - is higher though
How about the trees who cut of legs at the ankle or bears who delete pictures on your mobiles or jungle ghosts who haunt anyone with evidence of your whereabouts to make sure that 5 of 8 of them are dead within a year?
Logically we are talking foul play here and not death by panther or another wild animal who forgot to leave mark on the bones or to eat the skin, nor a accident which would make every evidence in the story make no sense whatsoever.
This story has always given me the willies!
The problem is we go abroad, and let are inabitions go, forget about are own personal safety, we think we are safe, it's sunny, everything is new, everyone seems friendly. I think where every we are in this world, we have to see the dangers out there, I have done stupid things abroad myself, if it was all just an accident or murder I don't know? 🙄🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Such a good point. My dad gave me common sense advice when I traveled to Australia 🇦🇺 alone from the US 🇺🇸. Just because it's also a western country and you speak the same language, you have to keep your wits about you at all times. Know where you are, tell ppl where you're going, have a plan, have a backup plan, keep your possessions safe etc.
The biggest problem is the lack of evidence. All we can say is that both girls went hiking, got lost, at least one of them got injured and both ended up dead. Everything else is conjecture.
Them being murdered doesn't quite add up, yet the official conclusion of their accidental deaths don't quote seem to add up either and that's due to the almost complete lack of evidence. If that was one of the girls taking pics 9 days after they went missing then that means she was alive for 9 days at the very least. That's A LOT of time that's almost a complete blank. Anything could have happened within that time, many things that maybe haven't even been considered. We'll simply never know.
Great analysis. Thanks!
Love your videos a lot!
Hope you are doing well Dr. Grande.
I don't mind longer videos at all, like here on this unknown story.. The more details, the more interesting and it gives Dr Grande the time to present a good, understandable timeline of events 📚 ...and of course some great oneliners 🌵 that dry humor is the best.
I've gotten lost hiking at night in the snow in the mountains on a sunday night when there was no human around. I'd think I found the trail, decended over a thousand feet, but realized what I thought were footsteps were in reality just spots where snow had melted during the day due to fallen pine needles. Backtracking was the one thing that saved me. The worst was when a mountain lion at night blocked my path, charged me twice and inspected me real close. There's nothing like the panic when you feel that you're going to die alone. So I can imagine what those girls must have experienced. How terribly sad.
Monday nights are usually more dangerous in these situations. And day time mountain lions are ravenous.
I've had weird glitches that have changed the number/ name of photo files. Maybe it was a corrupted file, my other thought is they knew they might die so deleted something that was embarrassing or something they didn't want family to see, like one of them crying or a graphic injury.
It doesn't need to be large scavengers, large beetles, ants and other invertebrates in rainforests sustain larger populations all year round because they don't have winters like us and will clean bones in no time, leaving the sun to bleach them.
Thank you for covering this case Dr Grande. This is such a tragic case and has always haunted me especially when I think of the frightening ordeal the girls must have encountered (whether accidental or foul play) in the jungle of Panama. May their souls rest in peace and may their parents and families find strength and healing over the years. I heard from other sources that the tour guide who moved the date to the next day gave differing statements about knowing the girls. At first he said he met them and gave them his card and later recanted and said that they had made the appointment without having met. His card was with the girls belongings in their room and he was also the first person to enter the girls room the next morning. The fact that he was also the one to find crucial evidence is also suspicious to me. Also there were differing times from the taxi driver who dropped them off at the trail and he was found murdered the following year. Too many co-incidences???
Concordo com você.
Eu tbm tenho impressão que o guia junto com mais duas ou três pessoas cometerem esse ato cruel com as meninas.
Unfortunately him being murdered isn't that uncommon in Panama, besides that, I agree, it does seem fishy
Dr. Grande could you please cover the case of Paulette Gebara Farah? The toddler who disappeared from her bed and found in her bed 9 days later?
She was deceased unfortunately.
Yes! That is a crazy case.
Familiarize yourself with "Missing 411" cases. There's a lot of them and they remain unsolved but have certain key characteristics.
Is this the case where the family tried to claim she was in the bed deceased along long hidden by the covers?
I did on a Friday and they found me on Monday. Same bed
I have researched this story so much that I feel an odd connection to these girls, almost as if I knew them in real life. May they rest in peace.
What I want to know is how did they end up in pieces? Surely there’s a way to determine that - if tools were used, or animals. They can’t just suddenly be scattered bones everywhere. I’m very intrigued
The main issue is how few parts were actually found. if they had more/larger pieces this may have been possible but with what they had its next to impossible. they did say they couldn't see any evidence of teeth marks though. the river appears to be rocky terrain so its possible the bodies were constant scraped along rocks and smashed against them while they drifted down stream, could explain how they ended up like that. the only odd thing out is the foot/shoe found on dry land.
So happy you covered this. Thank you.
One of my thoughts on why there was no distress in at least some of the photos: if some one who was a predator joined them, they would have appeared friendly and harmless by manipulation and smiles. If the girls became suspicious at some point, they may have quietly agreed to pretend friendly so as to throw the predator off and possibly get away. They also might have tried a run for it, when they felt in danger, in desperation and went off the trail, only to be followed. Leaving evidence behind could just be carelessness on the predator’s part. There also may have been less and less other people on the trail, so no one to join forces with. The predator would be very sure of themselves and even with plans to leave the country so no concern about being found. And so much more.
I have been in situations like that where you are trapped because of a flat tire, in the middle of nowhere, and in those days no cell phones....😬 if you act suspicious openly you are in trouble. Also travellers like these girls are generally more trusting of fellow travellers.
I agree with much of what you shared - very insightful.
The only point I disagree with is the idea women are more trusting.
I have constantly been amazed in my life that men do not have the sense of reality over the dangers presented to females over being in vulnerable situations.
Completely agree about how we tend to have to fake being comfortable with people we have a question about - if we are in a situation where we are stuck until we can get out.
We are prey and know there are predators out there. Many men do not understand this - at least the “ normal” ones.
@@Raminakai I agree with you regarding women. I meant these types of travellers. 😊
@dish dog Please do some more research on this case. Your arrogance is out of line.
@dish dog organized crime, so obvious.
People don't realize the trail is not marked... There is nothing that tells you you reached the Mirador at the top. So they could easily have continued thinking the trail ended somewhere else. At some point the realized they went too far and got lost trying to return. It's as easy as that. Getting lost in the jungle is really easy, all it takes is walking for 10 seconds in the wrong direction. The jungle is so dense and everything looks the same. The other theory about the gang... I find it unsurprising that drug dealing criminals would kill each other over drug related issues. The townsfolk could have easily associated them with the death of the girls and spun lots of speculation. But the time lines of the calls and the gang showing up in the middle of the jungle to take them somewhere else to assault them and then go back into the jungle to scatter them and make phone calls for 11 days doesn't make any sense, nor does it fit the time line. It's just too convoluted.
Indeed. I've spent countless hours hiking in neotropical forest, day and night, in Panama and elsewhere. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you wish to avoid running into a 'street gang' the best place to be is in the heart of the rain forest at night. In fact, it is a very safe place to be in general - provided one has sufficient 'bush sense'.
And you are certainly on the right track in pointing out the propensity for credulous rural villagers to spin yarns and gossip in connection with any given event. One cannot underestimate this as a factor when considering 'witness' statements.
What a nightmare may they RIP 🙏
You could make the argument for either foul play or a tragic accident. It's hard to come to one conclusion without adhering to the other. An extremely sad case and even to this day, it still haunts my mind.
Yaaay so early this time! 🙌🏻🙌🏻 thank you Dr Grande your videos just make my day!
It is a very easy case. They were kidnapped and killed, the rest is just a not so clever set-up to make it look like it was an accident.
The best of many proofs: nobody calls only one time the emergency when he gets in trouble. And especially not the first day when you realise you have to spend the night in the jungle.
Who would have kidnapped them and why, what was the reason?
@@rucianapollard7098 rape them, steal their organs, depraved individual...there are plenty of reasons.
@@rucianapollard7098 The school that they were supposed to volunteer at the same day they went missing, had rudely turned the girls away last minute even though their start date was confirmed prior to their arrival. It's very possible that in that area there is something bigger going on that involves murdering, trafficking, organ harvesting, cannibalism, forest games etc. Certain crooked community members may work together to get tourists into vulnerable situations. Example, someone in the school feeds back info to maybe host families where tourists or students stay. There are many disappearances in that area, and the girls remains were found near other unidentified remains. The reason for following and killing someone is simple, and that is there are many evil people in this world who have malice. Two pretty young Dutch girls go into a forest alone, anyone could have very easily kept an eye on them, followed them, and had their sick way with them. We know the girls made it to the peak of the trail because they photographed the entire way there. It's only after that the photos of them aren't together anymore, we never see Lisane again, and Kris is no longer smiling. I believe someone followed them deep into the trail, and then revealed themselves so the girls couldn't get away so easily. Maybe it was a sexual assault then murder. Kris's leg had a clean cut, indicating murder because nothing in nature cuts a bone so clean and precise. Their bones had no teeth marks or marks, and Kris bones were bleached. Their bones and whatever remains were scattered in a wide area. Their belongings randomly showed up in a previously searched area after reward money increased for any leads to the case. The first day they went missing only 2 attempts to call for help were made. If it was anyone's first night lost, you would frantically be calling for help as panic set in, even with the intent to save battery you know the first 24 hours are critical. Not another call for help was made until 14 hours later. Just very strange and unlikely. This all suggests foul play, and murder. Just my opinion, of course.
Не думаю, что девушки заблудились. Полагаю, что за ними следили либо с начала их путешествия по тропе, либо раньше. Кто-то из местных заприметил двух молодых симпатичных девчонок, где-то случайно услышал их разговор, что они собираются одни идти на тропу, и решил, что они станут легкой добычей.
Когда девушки дошли до Мирадора, их специально напугали и не дав возможности повернуть назад, погнали дальше по тропе, в дикие джунгли. Это, кстати, объясняет, почему звонки в службу спасения не были непрерывными: девушки звонили только в те моменты, когда отрывались от преследователей, а потом их настигали снова и они бежали, бежали без оглядки в дикие джунгли.
Их несколько дней гоняли по джунглям, и девушки без еды, воды и отдыха просто ослабли и не смогли больше бежать. Их наконец схватили и убили, возможно перед этим хорошенько над ними поиздевавшись.
А потом эти люди поняли, что натворили и начали заметать следы, расчленив тела и подбросив их в разных местах джунглей. Когда вокруг этого дела началась шумиха, то подбросили ещё и рюкзак с вещами.
В общем, моё мнение такое.
These girls are from the town I live in. People who knew them are still quite affected by it. Its not a big city, so almost everyone knows someone who knew them.
The lack of clear answers must be extremely difficult for their families
Right i would be to
Amersfoort not a big city? For the Netherlands it is.
@@rmanpojo8485 I would say it's average size. And the center consists of about 6000 people, which is where one of the girls worked in a cafe. Maybe the other one did as well, not quite sure. Having lived and worked in the city center myself, it's safe to say everyone knows everyone.
@@roeliethegoat I have family in Amersfoort and they don't know these girls.
I think I could understand calculus if Dr. Grande explained it to me. 🤷🏻♀️
Lol! He'd have his work cut out for him with me!
I think the simplest solution is often the correct one. Two girls went for an unprepared hike in unfamiliar territory, got lost, and tragically lost their lives. South American jungles are treacherous enough on their own without involving supernatural serial killers who leave no evidence of their presence behind.
I think there are numerous reasons why the girls would not have left some kind of written message. They may have underestimated the seriousness of their situation until it went very bad very quickly, as is likely to happen in the wilderness. Their judgement may have been affected by unfamiliarity with the area or survival situations. They make have panicked. They may have been injured. They may have become dehydrated and gotten sick from trying to drink untreated water.
As for the condition of their bodies, I think the tropical environment, high waters, heavy rain, and scavenging animals scattering the remains are adequate explanations. Again, this makes more sense than a magical serial killer bleaching their bones, returning them to the search area, and scattering them about for... reasons?
This happened in North America, or more specifically the Central American part of North America.
exactly
The length of time they managed to survive, based on the pictures and phone activity shocks me
Why was the snack in their bag untouched, while them starving for 11 days in the jungle???
I think that was a very very good and fair analysis based on evidence. However, because the evidence is so lacking and this case makes me so angry I am leaning heavily towards murder. I think the locals that Lisanne and Kris were acquainted with know exactly what happened and they are actively covering up the truth to protect their tourism. This case makes me so angry because it should have been handled better, it should have been solved and those girls should have never traveled to that sketchy ass place