My snowblower has the same type of transmission for the drive wheels, adjustable speeds for forward and reverse. Of course we wouldn't expect Keith to have much experience with those 🙂
@@atvheads It is a kind of CVT but there are many types within that group and neither CVT nor variator does exclusively mean this type of CVT. I don't think this type has a certain name. You could call it a perpendicular disk friction drive but that's a rather long "name".
Mine does as well, though it has gated 'shifter' as the human interface. Didn't realize it was a CVT until I had to open the transmission to replace a pin.
That clutch is a simple and clever design, easily adapted for variable speed output, and has stood the test of time! Those pillow block bearings that support the clutch shaft have adjustments for taking up wear in the diameter.
About 15 years ago, I rebuilt a Snapper ride-on mower. I had about 1.5 acres of lawn, so it was impractical to mow weekly with a walk-behind mower. My Snapper indeed used exactly this kind of friction drive, which I rebuilt exactly like the one in today's video. I was able to source the friction drive material. I bandsawed it to the approximate diameter, and turned it to size in a wood lathe, as it was slightly too large for my metal lathe. I took the drive disk to a clutch & brake shop, and they were able to true it up on their flywheel lathe in about 20 minutes. I had found a brand new surplus 8 HP B&S vertical shaft engine that was a drop-in replacement for the original badly worn engine. New paint, blade, belt, seat (also surplus), and battery completed a restoration of a basket-case riding mower to like new condition. I think all-in I spent about $350 on it, not bad as at the time an equivalent new Snapper was close to $1000. It was a two-weekend project with my (then) 14 year old son, who otherwise was spending an entire Saturday every week hand mowing that big lawn. The Snapper made short work of it, finished in a little over an hour. Kieth's video brings back some fond memories of a fun and practical project we did together.
I've really enjoyed my visits to the museum and have gotten to see Keith running the mill a couple of times. Well worth your time. Be sure to pick up some stone ground grits from the gristmill too!😊
William Lambert is credited for inventing the friction drive and started making tractors under the name of Lambert & Buckeye. Then the Heider Brothers started the Heider Tractor company using a friction drive. The company was then sold to the Rock Island Plow Co. and tractors were produced as the Heider and Rock Island Plow Co. tractors (Heider on the radiator and Rock Island on the side panels). That company was then sold to the J.I. Case company. I believe some other companies made friction-drive tractors. One company actually moved the engine forwards and backward to work as the variable speed and used an automobile tire as the friction wheel. The advantage was that the rest of the drive consisted of a bull gear driving a big gear connected to the axle.
Me too as well. normally we are as blind as Keith himself. Jobs come in from far and wide of all types and out they go to be sent back by courier to where they are used. He and we never see them in action. I used to work in welding and fabrication. We built and modified them special metal spillages that hold and transport a stack of say doors, bonnets and boots and then the robotics can take them out and add them to the car. I got the jist of that and saw them in action once. Some jobs we did just never made sense no matter how well they were explained lol.
I was surprised you didn't use a carbide cutter. Fibrous materials are very abrasive and I'm sure your HSS cutter suffered as can be seen on your exit path. I know for this application that is not an issue. Just being critical for no apparent reason. Enjoyable mid week video. Thanks! Maybe sometime in the future I can visit this site for a close up.
If this stuff is anything like polyurethane it just laughs at carbide because it's soft compared to metal. You need a tool that will shear it like a knife. That's why he's getting those long stringy chips.
We had an Arens mower in the 60s with that setup. The friction wheel was hard rubber, if I remember correctly. They were finnicky to get adjusted (of course I was only 10ish years old and everything seemed that way.). Had to figure it out to get the mower running and the yard mowed before dad got home. He'd left orders that the yard be mowed and mission failure was NOT a good option.
Seventy five years ago i rode on the work car with my uncle who was a section foreman on the railroad . long ago but memory tells me that the drive wheel was a small rubber tire . Forward , reverse and speed control in one !
Keith is knocking de jobs out. This reminds me of hull-oaks lumber co. Hauled many loads of timber the the southeast. Still knocking out big timber with a seam sawmills. Just a scaled down version.
Useful information: For an exact measure keyway, always use a 2 cut end mill. Because it don't drift to one direction from the cutting forces. Like the 2 cut Keith use in this video.
I was wondering if the keyway might be too shallow, since their depth is generally measured from the edge which is a bit lower than the top of the diameter circle. Might have gotten away with this due to the keyway in the pulley being too deep, either made that way or worn.
im not old and i had several snapper mowers! it worked great on those units and you didnt have to use the clutch to stop n start or reverse which i really liked. super simple and reliable design as long as it didnt get wet.
Keith, I don't want to be pedantic, but you missed the depth of that keyway. A shaft keyay depth is measured from full width, not first contact. Your keyway will be shallow by a significant amount. Surely you know this. It's easy to make mistakes, I know that as well as anyone. I'm an old machinist near retirement and I very much enjoy your videos, and I covet your shop!
The old Dixon ZTR mowers had a similar friction clutch. When I first got married and bought a house of course we were broke but I needed a mower. I picked one up for free that wouldn't run or move. Engine was easy to get going but Dixon had a set of setup feeler gauges that was proprietery. It cost me a little bit to buy them but I got it under power and kept it adjusted for several years until the hydrostatic mowers became popular
A fun little project, I know there’s a ton of videos out there but maybe next time you could show us how you grind your cutters and explain a little about reliefs and maybe something about chip breaking. Thanks and have a good one!
Very good presentation. I really appreciate seeing the clutch in place and the mechanics of the saw slide. I started watching your work from Tally Ho’s capstan. I am now a faithful follower. Keep up the great work. Dave
snapper lawn mowers and for us in the great white north, snowblowers. snowblowers(walk behind type) still use this system for speed and directional control of the wheels
Great video, I will be supporting you soon just amazing videos, could have made the set screw a bit shorter but it's not going to be of balance too much. You have so much talent and are a dream to watch thankyou Keith.
Reminds me of the time I had to turn some polyurethane discs. Ground the same kind of tool and had the same kind of chips but had to be careful of birdnesting because poly wouldn't break and once it caught something spinning ..... what a mess.
You may not have a lot of visibility to SNOW BLOWERS..... but they ALL use the same mechanism to control forward/reverse and speed. (solid-rubber tire at right angle to spinning steel plate)
I don't have any of the equipment that you feature quite often on your channel, but it is good to know that there are folks out there that understand how to repair or rebuild these things. Thanks, Keith!
Nice! I wouldn’t be surprised if the more “ancient” friction material contained asbestos…? Just like I’d BE surprised if the current friction plates had asbestos in it. If unsure (not directed to Keith…), take utmost care out there…
![What's in the box?! 1890s Safe [Restoration]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kugqGatwLDY/mqdefault.jpg)
My snowblower has the same type of transmission for the drive wheels, adjustable speeds for forward and reverse. Of course we wouldn't expect Keith to have much experience with those 🙂
It is called a cvt, or variator.
@@atvheads It is a kind of CVT but there are many types within that group and neither CVT nor variator does exclusively mean this type of CVT. I don't think this type has a certain name. You could call it a perpendicular disk friction drive but that's a rather long "name".
Mine does as well, though it has gated 'shifter' as the human interface. Didn't realize it was a CVT until I had to open the transmission to replace a pin.
It's always a good day when you show where your projects fit.
I wonder when he will show us where the Stoker Engine fits!
@@garybrenner6236 I think everybody here knows where it will fit....
That clutch is a simple and clever design, easily adapted for variable speed output, and has stood the test of time! Those pillow block bearings that support the clutch shaft have adjustments for taking up wear in the diameter.
And in that simple design you can go forward or reverse along with the variable speed in both directions, pretty neat! Thanks for pointing that out.
About 15 years ago, I rebuilt a Snapper ride-on mower. I had about 1.5 acres of lawn, so it was impractical to mow weekly with a walk-behind mower. My Snapper indeed used exactly this kind of friction drive, which I rebuilt exactly like the one in today's video. I was able to source the friction drive material. I bandsawed it to the approximate diameter, and turned it to size in a wood lathe, as it was slightly too large for my metal lathe. I took the drive disk to a clutch & brake shop, and they were able to true it up on their flywheel lathe in about 20 minutes. I had found a brand new surplus 8 HP B&S vertical shaft engine that was a drop-in replacement for the original badly worn engine. New paint, blade, belt, seat (also surplus), and battery completed a restoration of a basket-case riding mower to like new condition. I think all-in I spent about $350 on it, not bad as at the time an equivalent new Snapper was close to $1000. It was a two-weekend project with my (then) 14 year old son, who otherwise was spending an entire Saturday every week hand mowing that big lawn. The Snapper made short work of it, finished in a little over an hour. Kieth's video brings back some fond memories of a fun and practical project we did together.
Great motivation for your son to participate, and I bet he learned a thing or two in the process, too.
I still use a snapper fairly often... One of the best pure lawn mowers ever made
I still use my old snapper. Its on its second engine. Mine is about 30-35 years old.
Going to the museum is so much more interesting after seeing this work.
Just logged into TH-cam for the evening, perfect timing
Just woke up for the day and this is making for an ideal wake up, haha. Keith is great for bedtime and great for morning coffee, too!
I've really enjoyed my visits to the museum and have gotten to see Keith running the mill a couple of times. Well worth your time. Be sure to pick up some stone ground grits from the gristmill too!😊
I'd love to visit the museum but, living in New England, it's rather a long drive to go to Georgia.
@peterhobson3262 🙂
Thanks Keith, your content, your style and your calming ways always entertain me and lower my blood pressure.
When I see the way he butchers things up it raises my blood pressure!
I appreciate you taking the time to show us what the part does. That is a really cool setup.
William Lambert is credited for inventing the friction drive and started making tractors under the name of Lambert & Buckeye.
Then the Heider Brothers started the Heider Tractor company using a friction drive. The company was then sold to the Rock Island Plow Co. and tractors were produced as the Heider and Rock Island Plow Co. tractors (Heider on the radiator and Rock Island on the side panels). That company was then sold to the J.I. Case company.
I believe some other companies made friction-drive tractors. One company actually moved the engine forwards and backward to work as the variable speed and used an automobile tire as the friction wheel. The advantage was that the rest of the drive consisted of a bull gear driving a big gear connected to the axle.
Thanks Keith. I'd like to get down there sometime and check out the museum.
Thank you for showing your work installed on the mill.
I remember when you were posting videos working on that saw mill. My how time flies.
Keith undo the clamp bolts refit the shaft and lock them up.😊
Really like the on-site vid to see the part installed.
Yep. Until I saw it, I was having a hard time understanding why you needed that stuff bolted solid between those hubs...
Me too as well. normally we are as blind as Keith himself. Jobs come in from far and wide of all types and out they go to be sent back by courier to where they are used. He and we never see them in action.
I used to work in welding and fabrication. We built and modified them special metal spillages that hold and transport a stack of say doors, bonnets and boots and then the robotics can take them out and add them to the car. I got the jist of that and saw them in action once.
Some jobs we did just never made sense no matter how well they were explained lol.
Good morning
I was surprised you didn't use a carbide cutter. Fibrous materials are very abrasive and I'm sure your HSS cutter suffered as can be seen on your exit path. I know for this application that is not an issue. Just being critical for no apparent reason. Enjoyable mid week video. Thanks! Maybe sometime in the future I can visit this site for a close up.
If this stuff is anything like polyurethane it just laughs at carbide because it's soft compared to metal. You need a tool that will shear it like a knife. That's why he's getting those long stringy chips.
@@tsmartin The chips did look good.
High speed is an excellent choice for this material. As Keith said, you want a sharp knife-like edge with high rake for very soft material like this.
Thanks Keith for uploading and show us the saw. Greetings from Germany.
Hey Keith! Thanks for another great video supporting the museum. The follow up video clip showing the saw mill was great content. Cheers!
Thanks for showing us how the part works on the saw mill!
Those of us up North recognize that drive mechanism from our Snow Blowers.
We had an Arens mower in the 60s with that setup. The friction wheel was hard rubber, if I remember correctly. They were finnicky to get adjusted (of course I was only 10ish years old and everything seemed that way.). Had to figure it out to get the mower running and the yard mowed before dad got home. He'd left orders that the yard be mowed and mission failure was NOT a good option.
Nice little project.
Thanks for showing us the part in use and the "How it Works" .
There are still mills here in Canada that are using that mechanism. Also, a lot of snow throwers and riding mowers use the same idea.
It's awesome to see how the part is used plus great that they keep these old machines operational and not just a static exhibition peace.
I was thinking of my old Snapper lawn tractor the whole time and then you mentioned it.
Ha, good one Professor!
Seventy five years ago i rode on the work car with my uncle who was a section foreman on the railroad . long ago but memory tells me that the drive wheel was a small rubber tire . Forward , reverse and speed control in one !
Keith is knocking de jobs out. This reminds me of hull-oaks lumber co. Hauled many loads of timber the the southeast. Still knocking out big timber with a seam sawmills. Just a scaled down version.
Useful information:
For an exact measure keyway, always use a 2 cut end mill. Because it don't drift to one direction from the cutting forces. Like the 2 cut Keith use in this video.
Those chips off the friction board look just what what we used to get in the Easter baskets as kids...
Great video . Like the part showing where it goes
Fun little thing to change things up a little.
I was wondering if the keyway might be too shallow, since their depth is generally measured from the edge which is a bit lower than the top of the diameter circle. Might have gotten away with this due to the keyway in the pulley being too deep, either made that way or worn.
Thanks for the video Keith. Nice job one day I may make it down to Tipton to see it all running.
I always enjoy unique projects.
Like the Stoker Engine?
im not old and i had several snapper mowers! it worked great on those units and you didnt have to use the clutch to stop n start or reverse which i really liked. super simple and reliable design as long as it didnt get wet.
My Snapper lawn mower is about 10 years old and it has a variable speed clutch like that, I bet the new ones still do.
Way cool, old school style
Love that old machinery!
Thanks for taking the time to show what it is and how it works, something people might never know in their life.
I saw the same drive system in a small locomotive in a model train store in Denver, circa 1987. It fascinated me then.
Keith, I don't want to be pedantic, but you missed the depth of that keyway. A shaft keyay depth is measured from full width, not first contact. Your keyway will be shallow by a significant amount. Surely you know this. It's easy to make mistakes, I know that as well as anyone. I'm an old machinist near retirement and I very much enjoy your videos, and I covet your shop!
I have the same deal on my snow blower , thanks for showing it .
I was in Tifton at the Blue Beacon yesterday. On my way to Utah on Saturday. Weather ought to be good.
Good morning Keith! Have a great day!
Really enjoy seeing the parts in action
In addition to the snow blowers and lawn tractors already mentioned, that mechanism was used in analog fire control computers.
The old Dixon ZTR mowers had a similar friction clutch. When I first got married and bought a house of course we were broke but I needed a mower. I picked one up for free that wouldn't run or move. Engine was easy to get going but Dixon had a set of setup feeler gauges that was proprietery. It cost me a little bit to buy them but I got it under power and kept it adjusted for several years until the hydrostatic mowers became popular
Well, this video was perfectly timed. I was listening to Clutch when it popped up!
Nice job Keith!
thanks for showing
Great Clutch !
Thanks for sharing
Nice one
Thank you for sharing.👍
A fun little project, I know there’s a ton of videos out there but maybe next time you could show us how you grind your cutters and explain a little about reliefs and maybe something about chip breaking. Thanks and have a good one!
10/4 on the Snapper drive setup!
Nice piece of work Keith.🙂🙂
Thank you Keith!
Just feeding the algorithm 👍🇬🇧
very very interesting - thanks
Repaired a few snapper drives this project did remind me of that
Very good presentation. I really appreciate seeing the clutch in place and the mechanics of the saw slide.
I started watching your work from Tally Ho’s capstan. I am now a faithful follower. Keep up the great work.
Dave
Always interesting !
Thanks Keith
Thx Keith!
Thank you Keith 😊
Great job.
Nice job!!
snapper lawn mowers and for us in the great white north, snowblowers. snowblowers(walk behind type) still use this system for speed and directional control of the wheels
Nice build !
Nice fix
The opposite of a paper cut.
Thanks Keith.
thank you Keith
Great video, I will be supporting you soon just amazing videos, could have made the set screw a bit shorter but it's not going to be of balance too much. You have so much talent and are a dream to watch thankyou Keith.
thank you.
Thanks for sharing 👍
Cool projects, Kieth.
I really want to see that museum some time. Im in MA though. Maybe some time if im ever driving south to visit the in-laws in Florida.
Kinda like the drive on my Ariens snowblower.
My Snapper snowblower has the same drive mechanism. Interesting.
If you would - video the process. It’d be interesting as can be to watch the entire cutting.🤜🤛
TY
Thanks
Nice little project.😎😎😎👍👍👍
crazy chip. thanks for showing the mill
Reminds me of the time I had to turn some polyurethane discs. Ground the same kind of tool and had the same kind of chips but had to be careful of birdnesting because poly wouldn't break and once it caught something spinning ..... what a mess.
You may not have a lot of visibility to SNOW BLOWERS..... but they ALL use the same mechanism to control forward/reverse and speed. (solid-rubber tire at right angle to spinning steel plate)
I think they originally may have just worn in the friction plates on the mill itself.
I think it's a drive wheel and friction disc.... :-) Like a snowblower drive (mostly)
I don't have any of the equipment that you feature quite often on your channel, but it is good to know that there are folks out there that understand how to repair or rebuild these things. Thanks, Keith!
I have bruises on the heel of my hand from hitting wrenches like you do.
Nice! I wouldn’t be surprised if the more “ancient” friction material contained asbestos…? Just like I’d BE surprised if the current friction plates had asbestos in it.
If unsure (not directed to Keith…), take utmost care out there…
I bet back in the old days, they would turn that friction wheel down while it was running on the saw.
sounds very much like how snow blowers transfer power
Nice work! Also very clever system on the sawmill.
Would it make sense to slightly rough up the surface of the friction wheels?
Ariens also used that system in their riders.
👍😎
Now that you're retired Keith, how did you ever find the time to work?
How accurately do those flanges line up with just the bolts?
Doesn't he have a set of expanding mandrels up to like 2 inches?
haha I didn't think of that until you said, he probably does.