Joel tells Ellie that you keep finding something to fight for, not because he actually believes it, but because he's saying ANYTHING to try and make Ellie feel better about her purpose being ripped away from her (whether she knows it was ripped away by him or not). This does not mean he was being dishonest earlier when he implied to Ellie that she was the reason that wound finally healed, but the contradiction of it very well may one more clue to Ellie that he's hiding something.
@@madkurious Bella said that Ellie can feel something is off, but she forces herself to believe Joel because she cannot accept the idea that he would lie to her like this
@@madkurious I think she recognizes it in the moment. The fact that she interrupted him to ask him to swear to her suggests that she either isn't listening to him or she knows he's just spewing a bunch of nonsense and isn't worth listening to any longer.
Craig and Neil suggested, alternately, that she doesn't really believe Joel (or even force herself to believe him), but that her "okay" is more of an acceptance that he's not going to be honest with her and that, unfortunately, that's going be the basis of their relationship going forward. She's basically accepting that there will always be some distance between them now, not solely because of the decision he made in the hospital but, perhaps even more so, because of his decision to lie to her about something so clearly important to her.
As someone who could not agree more with the problems of the "Escapism Epidemic" prominent in so much of contemporary media, I fundamentally disagree about this in relation to The Last of Us TV show. "A more powerful and actionable message about learning to live with grief" is, while important, a semi-trite message not even half as potent as one of the show's true themes: the paradoxical nature of love. Every episode has shown us love at its most beautiful and life-affirming, or love at its most selfish and destructive, and the finale is the merging of the two into paradox, where we are left with no easy answers -- or messages -- as the finale actively resists the pure escapism of media that try to preach a statement, however important that statement may be. Or, as James Baldwin said better, "The purpose of art is to lay bear the questions hidden by the answers." While Joel does say he attempted suicide, and while we can suppose that losing Ellie may make him attempt suicide again, presenting a character who is overly-obsessive about the one he loves to the point of utter (self-)destructiveness is fundamentally different from the show itself suggesting, as a message, that if we "lose what we treasure most our life is over" -- in fact, I would argue that we, as viewers, see this as one of Joel's fatal flaws, not something the show wants us to internalize as an actionable virtue. So I'd ultimately conclude with this: stating a "message" is often aligned with this "Escapism Epidemic," as it soothes rather than complicates, it tells us what to do rather than awaken us to life's complexity. The Last of Us TV show (and game) ends not on a message but on a moral paradox/question, where we see how Joel turns violent due to his love of Ellie (and his own grief), and we see how Ellie accepts his lie because of her love of Joel (and because it's too painful to realize the one you loved stripped you of your purpose); and, ultimately, we are left alone to sit with the climax's complicated exploration on the paradoxical nature of love as we wrestle with its contradictions. This is the opposite of escapism and it's far more complex -- and profound -- than the proposed escapist message you yearned for the finale to be. So, please, don't turn The Last of Us into Pixar, with "powerful, actionable messages"--I'd rather it stay Shakespeare. Having said that, I do appreciate that you are one of the few Content Creators who truly dug deep, so keep up the great work :)
You make some very, very good points here. This is an extremely well though-out rebuttal and I appreciate everything you have to say. I’d suggest everyone who wants to think critically about my video read everything you just wrote here. This is my favorite type of mental sparring. They altered his fatal flaw from the game to show in these decisions, and it decreases the emotional impact by making him obsessive rather than truly loving. I see where you are coming from. I think where it crosses the line into “escapism” for me, is where his obsession is now glorified instead of his love, and the message is now without nuance. In the game, they insisted on his decision being love, and wanting to spend more time and give her more time with the people they care about, in the show, he feels a compulsory need to save her as an obsession and a need to protect. The dialogue choices are where I think it becomes escapism. That’s why I focused in on it. They took away all meaningful dialogue that gives nuance to the important message of dealing with grief, and instead use obsessive behavior as a crutch, not as an important message on the nature of love. If it were a more nuanced perspective on the nature of love, the dialogue would support that more. “Save who you can save” appears to be the major message of the game in place of “fight for every second you can have with each other”. A supporting monologue shift I didn’t even mention in the video, since it was a little outside of scope for this one, was Ellie’s change in motive. I loved that they expanded her monologue about why she’s doing this, but I’d venture to say that not only did they take love out of the equation in that entire monologue, they negated her focus at the beginning on helping others-like she tried with Sam. Instead, she’s focused on “finishing what she started.”. If the dialogue supported this main theme of it the complexity of love, I’d buy it. But as is, Joel’s decision at the end lost its entire premise as even being love, and replaced it with obsession. While the end shows Ellie being less than thrilled or trusting in all of it, the story unfortunately still glorifies the obsessive message with their loveless focus throughout Joel and Ellie’s dialogue and behavior. I think your analysis is sound that many episodes focused on love, but what I will discuss in a future video is how they did so in silos. And unfortunately these silos often missed affecting the main relationship of the story, in which the beautiful message of love is overshadowed with that of obsession. And unfortunately they don’t have anything greater to say about how obsession is destructive in nature. They reward the hero right now, the dialogue replacements throughout her suggest a theme theme of obsession rather than love, the dialogue at the end displays distrust, but they didn’t change it. And in not changing it from when their theme was about learning to live with whatever life throws at us, it now fell flat when it could’ve been an opportunity to actually comment on that fatal flaw in a way that’s meaningful. Because they built up obsession as this flaw, without commenting on its destructive nature, we’re left with a dangerous message, glorifying obsession--to protect who you love at all costs. I'd also argue that the message of dealing with grief is certainly not trite. If anything, it's the exact opposite of dealing with life by obsession. In handling what life throws at you with a healthy mentality, you don't place your meaning in any one thing to the extent that it becomes obsession. In the game, Joel has character development, but reverts back to his protective nature for love. In the show, Joel no longer has that character development as he just finds a new target for his obsession, and makes his decision based off of that. Both include selfishness, but only the game creates nuance with that selfishness in the form of love.
@@madkurious Thank you for this beautiful response; I truly wish great debates like this weren't so rare :). I love what you're saying about how the Joel in the TV show is obsessive rather than love-based, and how they glorify the former over the latter; however, is it that he is now pure obsession, or is it that love and obsession have fused in Joel in a murky, messily human way? When TV Joel was running down those hospital hallways, I found myself shaken by how I was watching a character I have come to love become, in so many ways, "the bad guy of the story" in the way Henry had become one when saving Sam and killing Kathleen's brother, while ALSO feeling the genuine love-based objective (however shrouded by unhealed personal grief it may be) that ripped through Joel's heart as he rushed to save his surrogate daughter. I personally didn't find that the show "glorified" his obsession at all: the haunting music, the cuts to the dead soldier or surgeon, I felt like I was watching violence that, while complex due to its love-based objective, never felt heroic, glorified. Instead, I too have come to love Ellie while also wrestling with my own selfish obsession to have her saved--and I found that the episode, like the game, did a great job at making me look at that obsession for all its beauty (as I DO believe it's fused with genuine love) and destruction. I'm compelled by the change of "fight for every second you can have with each other" to "save who you can save." I wonder if this is the major message of the show, or one shade of the overall theme of love: Bill, the survivalist, becomes a survivalist who ALSO wants to save Frank and "live" until ultimately letting him commit suicide (not saving him, in literal terms) in a beautiful act of sacrifice/love-over-survival; Henry attempted to save who he could save -- Sam -- in the name of love, but validates Marlene's final thesis to Joel when Sam, too, becomes infected and Henry has to kill his brother to save who he can save (Ellie); the most villainous person in the show, David, saves who he can save by feeding his people dead people when there's limited food; the cordycepts themselves work as a group to, through violence, protect themselves and their own as they save themselves; and Joel, having ALL these contradictions inside of him after eight episodes, saves Ellie at the expense of saving humanity. So I would argue that "Save who you can save" is less the message, and more the exploration of "who SHOULD you save, when can't you save, when SHOULDN'T you save," especially when its involving someone you love. I totally agree with the monologue: it felt, with Ellie, less about her love of Sam & Riley, and more about her obsession with redeeming herself for their deaths (albeit of course not being her fault), and agree that if we felt the love more, in that monologue, it would be all the more powerful. I look forward to your video on how the theme of love was, detrimentally, done in a silo! I've been wrestling with how I feel about that as well. Finally, I think this is where we ultimately disagree: I, personally, DID feel like they commented on the destructive nature of "obsession as this flaw" via the narrative storytelling of the whole show and how we (or at least myself) feel at climax. And also because we are told by Ellie herself what she would have wanted ("this can't be for nothing!") and it's on Joel that he didn't listen. Because what if he did? Would actually internalizing what she wanted make him sacrifice her for humanity and actually be able to move on with his life? I think the show makes us actively ask this, which strips it from the dangerous nihilism of "well, if you lose the one you love, you should kill yourself." The show, I believe, does present other options, even if our protagonist is blind to them. But thank you again for a brilliant, thoughtful rebuttal. It has given me a lot to think about, and I can't wait to learn more from your next video! :)
They made Joel seem more obsessive to try and make his choice and actions seems more villainous so that more people would be supportive of Abby next season. I also don’t think it was “glorified”.
I also feel like the emotions aren't hitting me as hard in the show, when compared to the game. This could just be because I'm biased, since I already know the game for such a long time and hold it in such high regard, that it would be difficult to get anywhere near it in an adaptation. But I think that the show is rushing the story which is hurting my connection to the characters. What irks me the most is that Ellie not being able to swim never becomes an issue.
I 100% agree. Going to touch on this a bit in another video. There’s so much to say about this adaptation. They’ve done a lot of good, but there’s so much that fell short. You’re so right, we’ll never have that moment between Joel and Ellie as a build-up to his birthday surprise for her. And we’ll never get to feel something every time she swims during Part II. It’s really a shame.
Riley still says this line. it's just different dialogue, but she still means the same thing "we dont quit whether it's two minutes or two days, we dont give that up, i dont wanna give that up" which pushes ellie to not give up on joel when he tells her to leave. I dont think it lost its theme. i just feel it doesnt hit as hard cause their is less infected its a good adaption i just wish their was more infected to emphasise the survival aspect of it but i also understand they dont wanna use them too much like other zombie shows i hope season 2 they find the balance.
Your point on dialogue is fair. My point in bringing up that they removed it though is that they removed the word “fight” which connected it to the end line from Joel. It was something that stood out as so relevant in my first analysis that I connected the two as one paragraph together. Joel says his sentence, and it flows right into Ellie asking “fight for what” where then Riley responds. I’d argue that every dialogue change they decide is very much for a reason, and that they did change the purpose by changing it, this with enough changes, altered the entire theme, purposefully. Agreed that there are many more reasons why the show resonated differently, why the last episode in particular didn’t hit for most of us who’ve spent time with the game, and that I would enjoyed much more of the infected-though the character building was wonderful to see, so I haven’t personally complained much about that, either. Seems like they could’ve just made the whole thing longer to include a bit more intriguing concepts. Like building this new theme into something that actually had a deeper meaning, more infected, better development of Joel and Ellie’s relationship, and more build up and emotion in the last episode.
As always I love your TLOU content! I agree with some parts and disagree with some parts of your discussion here. However, I'm not sure I can respond in words effectively enough to convey the nuance I want to show. I was already working on my full season review of the show so I would like to make a separate video that gives a more detailed response to you. I love the discussion you've started on this though which is why, like you, I love this game so much. It gives you so many things to play around with in your head. I will tag you in the response when I'm done.
First off: I knew when I saw the finale run time I was in for a bit of a disappointment. I've been aware of the games but never a player, so this is my first time experiencing the story. I have to agree the finale just felt like it just didn't fit with the rest of the story and characters, well except for Ellie. The opening scene, which I'm not sure is even in the game, felt like an unneeded explanation for why Ellie is immune. The scene's real purpose, of course, was to shoehorn in there that Marlene and Ellie have some connection that didn't really make sense because, as far as I knew, Ellie and Marlene had no idea who each other were until Riley joined the Fireflies. Sidenote - the phantom bites are really getting to be played out, and it's only in season 1. I don't think TWD, a show I stopped watching after 4 seasons, had this many phantom bites in all the eps I watched. The ep then settled in as they traveled to the city looking for the hospital. My wife and I were really touched by Joel's story about his suicide attempt and then what Ellie means to him. I really like the line you said they took out and wish they would have kept it in there. I also think Ellie handing him the photograph of his daughter would have been really powerful and I can't believe they didn't keep that in there. After the waterworks, we see another trope that's getting to be played out: Ellie and Joel got jumped. I feel like this is happening far too often, as well. Some surprises are bound to happen and are sometimes required, but I feel like every time something needs to happen, the go-to idea is to have something or someone pop out of nowhere. This works great in a game, but for a TV/movies the audience can be jaded by frequently used plot devices. From there, the rest of the episode felt like a speed-read through the beats: Marlene is here, Ellie is going to surgery, surgery will kill her, there's nothing Joel can do, let Joel go (oops), Joel goes Die Hard with a dash of T-1000, and Ellie is saved. I really liked the season as a whole and I'll most likely watch until the very end, but that last episode had to be one of the more disappointing finales to a great season of a show I've ever seen. I think my least favorite part of it is it made me not like Joel, which maybe was the point? But I'm a father of two daughters, and I'd probably do exactly what he did if it was my girls in Ellie's situation, but I still somehow can't feel any kind of good about Joel. First the pendulum swung in one direction where he couldn't handle violence and he would have panic attacks, now the pendulum has swung in the other direction where he will kill anyone and everything to save Ellie, and that's not good, either. Sorry for the long post, I enjoyed your vid, and I'll be subscribing. Looking forward to some more TLOU and whatever else content!
It's actually interesting, a lot of reactions I have seen have been completely with Joel, saying he was fully right to do what he did. Based on all that I actually thought maybe they didn't make Joel's spree brutal enough, but I guess it really just comes down to everyone's personal preference As for whether we are supposed to like Joel? We have been told from the beginning of the show thaz he is not a good person, that he's capable of terrible things, and that side had to surface eventually As for why Joel went from panic attacks and freezing to a T-1000, in my mind, it has to do with the end of episode 6. I think the fact that Ellie chose him, even if he may not be the best protector, gave Joel that extra confidence, belief and motivation to do right by her, at any cost Imo the only big issue with the finale was that it came a bit too suddenly for me (maybe just cause I've played the game). I feel like some more buildup and breathing room would have benefitted it
Thanks for the kind words! Ellie and Marlene were connected in the cannon of the game too, and I actually liked how they showed the beginning scene for how it gave Marlene enough character development to explain the largest plothole I saw in the game, which I eventually plan to talk about in another video. I'm still unsure how I feel about the explanation for why Ellie is immune. They didn't include that in the game, so now they've limited themselves, and TLOU3 will have to follow that cannon or greatly diverge from show at that point if they decide to go down a route where they answer that in either medium. But with Neil Druckman on both the show and the game, presumably, he has a plan for this. Hopefully, it doesn't end up being unneeded, but it didn't add anything to this season. Them getting jumped made me so upset. It was much better in the game--having a moment where she saves him right before he decides to save her. It was also such a cheap move when they've spent the whole season building up side plots, just to have the very last jump be so sudden. I love your analysis of this from a parents' perspective. I think most of us would make the same decision as Joel, which is likely the writers' point, but the game made us feel for Joel while we made that decision. The show barely made his decision believable, much less made it impactful on the viewer, even if we'd do the same. Thanks for this--it puts into words something I'd thought but hadn't quite vocalized properly.
Agreed! Breathing room was so needed. The game paced it all so much better. I think had there been a better build-up between Joel and Ellie the entire season, like in the game, maybe we wouldn't have noticed or cared how speedy the end was.
Nice touch with the giraffe in the back. I loved that they added the boosting up and ladder sequence since you do it so much in the game. Would love to see more infected, a few molotov cocktails. It bothered me that they made Joel try to commit suicide, Ellie didn't give him the picture of Sarah, no mention of her not being able to swim! Her lack of ability to win compared to how she swam in Pt II was important because it showed how much Joel became a part of her life! I'm sure there's more I can think of, but keep up the great content!
These are very good points. We will never be able to have the full beauty of the flashback because they’ve had two tiny mentions of her love of astronomy, and none of the swimming struggle. Thanks for noticing the giraffe! You’re the first commenter to notice. My Twitch community voted on this specific giraffe for Part 1 last year.
I honestly felt like the whole season could have been longer. It felt drawn out in meaningless parts and rushed in the moments I really wanted to savor. Now, I've never played the game... although I hope to now. But, just as a story there was so much done well... still, I was left wanting more. Side note: the director commentary and actor interviews after each episode REALLY made the show 100x better! Great video Mad!! Love your friggin face 😻
Thank you, Brandi! I agree. The expanded focus on side stories was amazing, but they needed to reconnect it to the main plot/characters a bit more. They did connect a bit on theme, but this video is exactly how that turned out problematic. They definitely didn't focus in enough on Joel and Ellie's relationship, and I don't think anyone would've complained about more infected. They only had one really good infected sequence in the whole season. The pacing was weird in parts, especially with how each episode felt like a silo. I really enjoyed the show, but have multiple disappointments, that to me, just solidify the beauty of the game. It's coming out on PC really soon, so hopefully you can play it!
What did you think of HBO's The Last of Us adaptation? Love it? Hate it? I think all opinions are fair. I will consume any TLOU related content, but that doesn't mean I won't look at it with a critical eye👀
They rushed it. This episode should have been at least 60-90 minutes. In general they have fumbled in how they’ve dedicated entire episodes to side characters like episode 4 (what was her name? Kathleen?) and not expounded on the crucial elements such as the hospital scene. Now it feels rushed. 40 minutes for the finale? Really? The last time Joel and Ellie had a significant runtime together was in episode 6? Maybe 7? Fumbled.
I agree that they rushed it and fumbled the end. Great video again @MADKurious. The whole Joel suicide thing was very jarring to me. The way Marlene said "*I have* no other choice" insead of "*There is* no other choice" in the game. Completely changes the motivation and weight behind her actions. Thst's just off the top of my head but I agree, this episode should have been the best or at least equalled episode 8 but widely missed the mark on the emotional level. Pedro never touched his watch... I will have more to say later...
I was rooting so much that the HBO Series might end the story with Joel and Ellie back at Tommy's and Papa Joel singing Ellie "Future Days". Could have been the perfect ending...Overall still a 10/10 Adaptation imo
It was beyond my expectations, and for the most part I love it, but I feel it could have been better. I almost feel like I have whiplash from the last 3 episodes. They slammed through it super quickly at the end.
This would have been lovely! The ending bit makes me tear up in the game, but it didn't in the show, so they might has well have tried a new ending, in my opinion.
*SPOILERS* I have played TLOU Part 1 and 2 completely multiple times, and always got emotional and felt some sort of connection while playing it, but when watching the last episode of the HBO Series when Joel turned himself into a terminator I barely felt any emotion, maybe it's cuz I already knew what was gonna happen but I personally think the Last episode was disappointing and lack on emotional connection unlike any other episode before that.
Referring to Joel as a "terminator" resonates with me. He seemed to lack all nuance in his emotion behind it all. They didn't spend enough time building their relationship as a focus that had much of a message in the show, and it really showed in the finale.
I can only see it as character assassination. They direction tried so hard to make Joel a character with a heart who was good that when he really broke When he NEEDED to hurt and hurt others it was nothing more than him going through the motions. His actions were done with military precision (as indicated with the sticker from episode 1) so they were emotionally detached, the scene pulled back to montage the violence so you could spectate without becoming too entrenched and the music drowned out anything except a few gun shots so there was no impact to be felt. You're left feeling like Joel is just a guy trying to do the right thing. But he's not. He's a good man who was destroyed and became a monster. And this little girl got his heart to start again. So when his pain comes back he has to make everyone around him feel it. They say "We're bad people" The show does NOTHING to back that up. Truly a disappointment. If I were to sum up the biggest issue I have with the show is that it's Sanitized by comparison to the game. They made it easier to consume for your average viewer.
@@madkurious Yes I completely agree, the time we spent in the game bonding with Ellie is not shown in the same level in the show. And the time when Joel actually starts to show a sense of caring to Ellie was also very later on in the show. It's still a great show but I was kinda disappointed with the finale
Shame the finale was so short though. It was too quick from that walking scene to the ambush one. Like normally you had a part inbetween when you had to fight infected. Now we unfortunately didnt do that. Also they could have given us more depth in the hospital itself. Maybe one last meeting between Marlene and Ellie or some depth about Abby and her father with the surgery. However I still enjoyed this series as a whole.
She's not supposed to. It's an adaptation to a more realistic telling of the story. When it's a game the characters are always exaggerated. You have to tone it down a little to make it more believable on screen. The show was never intended to be a copy & paste.
I don't think I'm smart enough to understand a lot of the things said in this video but I still agree with what you said at the end about Ellie adding to Joel's life compared to becoming his life. After watching the episode I was kind of unhappy with the ending but I couldn't really place why so I'm happy I found your video and could put some real reasons behind it. Great video and new sub!
Thank you!! I think that feeling of disappointment could be for a number of reasons, but this was the first that really hit me. There’s a reason this game resonated with so many people, and it’s disappointing to see that while the show is successful in entertaining people, it might not have that same effect.
I just discovered your channel, the last of us is also my favorite game of all time, I enjoyed the show as well but I think the show took away too much from the infected.
Agreed! I understand their focus on the character stories, but I would have loved more infected. Hopefully they’ll show a lot more in the next season because the scenes they did have of them were incredible.
You've broken this down well. While not a game player, I've watched some play through videos (after seeing a given point in the show). As you note, it appears they've stripped away some of the critical nuance. I fear this distinction may be lost on most. . .even with gamers. I hope I'm wrong about that, though. *EDIT:* I enjoyed the show a great deal. But that last episode, while good, did leave me with an aftertaste of vague dissatisfaction. I think you may have hit on why. Great video.
Thanks so much! Watching, by nature, will feel a little less compelling in certain areas simply by missing the inherent immersion of games, but there are differences in these stories that were chosen outside of just the art of tv vs game that I find intriguing, as well. I wish I had felt differently about the finale. I somewhat expected it based on how little they focused on this main relationship compared to telling other stories. A beautiful decision in some ways, but didn't pay off in the end.
This is also why I disagreed with Bill killing himself with frank. Part of life is living after your spouse is gone. Bill’s life isnt over just because Frank is gone. He should have kept fighting to survive until the end like he did in the games. The show tries to argue life is worth living because the people we care about count on us, but it just comes off as “if you dont have anyone left to take care of, your life has no meaning anymore” through Bill’s actions. We are more than what we can give to other people.
This is such a good point! They romanticized obsessive/toxic love there, as well. That’s a perfect example of how this was escapism rather than holding up a mirror to society as they did in the game. Would it not have been even more beautiful to have seen Bill think about it and change his mind, then find some joy in doing some of the things he was doing at the beginning of the episode? Amazing point.
@@madkurious Escapism is the word. A normal people in our world might kill themselves if faced with Frank's situation, but I don't think they would in Bill's. It was a really weird way to portray "love," no one in Frank's situation would really want their partner to give up their life and die with them.
This is a brilliant pickup which I hadn't noticed. I knew something was missing but I couldn’t put my finger on it as it has been a long time since I played the original game. That is disappointing they took this direction. I also felt the line Joel used after Ellie killed David “it’s ok Baby girl” didn’t feel right in the show like it did in the game. Thank you for the breakdown it was well done 👍
YES! That moment didn’t hit for me. I tear up in the game every time, that’s why that moment is so prominently focused on in my first video. I think the show took a little too much focus off both Joel and Ellie’s developments. I was afraid of that after Ep 3. As much as that episode had me BAWLING, it didn’t do anything for the main characters, and those deviations had an immense effect on the lackluster finale.
I think you're reading too much into it. In the game, at the end, Joel tells Ellie, "...you keep finding something to fight for." It is unspoken in game, but after Ellie's encounter with David, Ellie in fact *DOES* become the thing Joel fights for. He "John Wicked" nearly an entire Firefly base all to save Ellie. He killed how many men in the town just to get to Ellie? I don't think Joel stating that Ellie is his reason for fighting is the "crucial mistake" you're implying. At the end of Part 2, in Joel and Ellie's final conversation, Joel tells Ellie, "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again." This clearly means that not only would Joel do it all again, but the subtext is he would go to *ANY* length to save and/or protect Ellie. He'd do much much worse than what he did at the Firefly Hospital if it meant saving Ellie. I dunno, to me the series conveyed the exact same theme and message despite saying them in different ways.
This is more or less a literary analysis format of thinking (think back to essays you were forced to write on literature back in school). Rather than “reading too much into it”, it’s a common way of exploring the importance of a story. We’re analyzing the themes. This sort of study isn’t of interest to everyone, but it’s unproductive to attempt diminishing a valued craft to “reading too much into it”. That’s why we have the escapism epidemic in the first place. They altered the theme, based on dialogue changes, and turned Joel’s intent into something dark. It is a mistake in the sense that they had nothing to say about it. It was for the escapism/shock value nonsense too much thoughtless writing relies upon these days. Rather than us debating the merits of his decision and generally a consensus that he’s both a hero and a villain, the show makes him entirely the villain by way of turning a lesson in overcoming grief into him moving his obsessive behavior onto another target. They also did so with much more violence than necessary in the the game, which I’ll dive into in a separate video because in that area of study, they did some things better and some things worse. When he tells Ellie about his attempt, she says “I’m glad time healed you”, and he says “it wasn’t time” and looks at her. We’re meant to take that as a sweet moment, but it’s actually not. Having someone else heal you rather than finding methods of coping with and overcoming grief, yourself, shows that Joel hasn’t had the character growth that he had in the game. Instead of him overcoming his character flaw to choose to save Ellie, he has a compulsion to save Ellie so he doesn’t lose his reason for existence again. It’s much less beautiful this way. Even that wouldn’t be problematic if they’d made a greater point about the problem of obsessive love and how it isn’t really love at all. They didn’t change the last lines of dialogue, which is actually now disturbing with the new context, instead of hopeful. It changes Joel’s entire motivation as a character and the main theme of the story. Furthermore, one thing a commenter pointed out supports this. They did the same thing with Ep 3. It was beautiful. I was heaving sobbing. But it was also disturbing when you think about it. A much better ending might have been seeing Bill choose to go on even when the thing, the person, who brings most of his fulfillment in life is gone. Imagine he’s doing some of the same things he did at the beginning of the episode, and one of those things makes him smile. It ends there. We have a story of hope. Of always finding something to live for. Now, we have Joel lying in the end because the implication is that Ellie is now his reason to live, and he wouldn’t find another without her. It’s sullied the important message on grief and pushing through life even when it hurts. I could go on, but I say most of this in the video with supporting evidence. I’d recommend watching it again!
@@madkurious ... I see your points, I just slightly disagree. I don't think it was a mistake to do it the way they did, it was just different from the game and that's okay. 🙂🙂
There was definitely something wrong with this final episode, but for me, it was the loss of the through-line of fascism pervading every aspect of power. The show opens with a new scene telling us that a cure is simply not possible. They chose that to be the first bookend on this show for a reason. Then, this adaptation shows us clearly and viscerally how EVERY version of power descends into fascism. First it was the government and Army. Then FEDRA. Then Kathleen with the "free people", and finally with David's settlement. The ONLY non-fascist organization we see is the commune. Because it's a commune, with a COUNCIL. Even the way they treat Ellie and Joel when finding them on patrol proves they choose non-violence, whereas the Fireflies IMMEDIATELY resort to violence in the final episode on a similar patrol. So please tell me how the Fireflies, who are willing to literally kill a child because she MIGHT be able to create a cure that the beginning of the show told us could not exist...were not fascists? They were, in my opinion. To be willing to sacrifice others so flippantly to gain something or uphold a power structure is textbook fascism. And in today's world, where we seem to be descending further and further into fascism, I think making the Fireflies' plan seem actually viable and leaning so heavily on this whole "parental love is illogical and trumps all" theme was frankly, a mistake. They totally dropped the ball. The narrative of the show was honestly unfairly cruel to Joel in this respect. WE the audience know the cure wasn't going to work, because of that opening scene. But by making the Fireflies' plan sound more viable, at least to a layman, it makes Joel's actions out to be far more selfish. In my opinion, this was an absolute miss. They should have kept the very vague "we *could* learn something from poking around in her brain and killing her is collateral damage" aspect from the game, because it reinforces that through-line of those in power sacrificing others for a chance at survival, or some kind of hope. Instead, it was presented by Marlene and arguably the narrative as almost fact, as basically a sure thing. But let's be real here. They were NOT going to be able to find a cure at that point, TWENTY-THREE YEARS after the world fell apart, with dilapidated technology, one scientist and no access to research and even factories. Where were they gonna mass-produce this cure? It took 2 years with virtually unlimited funding, numerous countries working together, and building on pre-existing research to make a covid vaccine which only works for some, or only works marginally. And this show wants me to believe Joel's choice was just illogical, fueled by parental love, and possibly doomed humanity? I call BS. But maybe the narrative is hoping we remember that opening scene. There can be no cure. They added that for a reason. And I think it was to remind us that Joel WAS right, even if the episode made his choice out to be completely selfish. I just think they should have leaned on that fascism theme harder and made it clear the Fireflies were BS as well. It wouldn't have felt as empty as the direction they went.
I love this. There could have been such better meaning to all of it had they leaned into this message. They had so much opportunity to say something, anything, and moved into the “we did this to get your eyeballs on it. That’s it. That’s the message Tehe”. Thank you for sharing this! Really good thoughts.
@@madkurious Thank you so much for saying so! I really got into my feelings about the showrunner's & writer's commentary after the episode about the central theme being Joel's parental love trumping logic. Like, why would you tell me that? What's REALLY illogical is for Marlene to think that killing Ellie is the only way to get a cure when she literally has knowledge of how the immunity occurred. Why wouldn't she be pushing for placental-focused testing, where a living, breathing teenager doesn't need to DIE? IMO, the addition of the Marlene and Anna backstory makes *Marlene* even MORE monstrous than in the game because she had a deep personal connection to this girl's mother, literally witnessed the aftermath of the thing that caused the immunity, and she somehow thinks that killing Ellie is the right solution? And she's come to terms with it? Because it's the best thing for humanity? She's throwing away *her* humanity on a lark trying to be a hero "for the greater good" instead of using logic to figure out how the immunity happened based on the facts she has...but the writer wants us to think JOEL is the illogical one? It's a miss for me. Which is a shame, because the rest of the show and even the episode itself are gorgeously done otherwise.
Yet I still wake up with a reason to live. I didn’t even say whether I’d save her or not (which I probably would), just that his reason for it in the show is unhealthy compared to the beauty of his reason in the game. Sacrificing for offspring is understandable, making them the purpose of your entire existence takes a beautiful thing a bit too far. I have experienced making specific people in my life too important. The lesson of getting through all-consuming grief is important-and they’ve removed that from the show and replaced it with romanticizing toxic love. They could have easily edited more dialogue to support having a message on it, but instead went the route of escapism. That’s why it’s a hard truth, losing anyone should not cause you to end your life as well. It’s understandable to have that level of pain, but to have wrapped your entire existence in one human is a form of obsession. Did you have a reason to wake up in the morning before you had a child? No matter how much pain we’re in, no matter how much we lose, we should always find reasons to keep living. Including parents.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
Joel tells Ellie that you keep finding something to fight for, not because he actually believes it, but because he's saying ANYTHING to try and make Ellie feel better about her purpose being ripped away from her (whether she knows it was ripped away by him or not). This does not mean he was being dishonest earlier when he implied to Ellie that she was the reason that wound finally healed, but the contradiction of it very well may one more clue to Ellie that he's hiding something.
This is a very good point. I hope they lean into Ellie catching that discrepancy in the second season.
Please explain what the contradiction is
@@madkurious Bella said that Ellie can feel something is off, but she forces herself to believe Joel because she cannot accept the idea that he would lie to her like this
@@madkurious I think she recognizes it in the moment. The fact that she interrupted him to ask him to swear to her suggests that she either isn't listening to him or she knows he's just spewing a bunch of nonsense and isn't worth listening to any longer.
Craig and Neil suggested, alternately, that she doesn't really believe Joel (or even force herself to believe him), but that her "okay" is more of an acceptance that he's not going to be honest with her and that, unfortunately, that's going be the basis of their relationship going forward. She's basically accepting that there will always be some distance between them now, not solely because of the decision he made in the hospital but, perhaps even more so, because of his decision to lie to her about something so clearly important to her.
As someone who could not agree more with the problems of the "Escapism Epidemic" prominent in so much of contemporary media, I fundamentally disagree about this in relation to The Last of Us TV show. "A more powerful and actionable message about learning to live with grief" is, while important, a semi-trite message not even half as potent as one of the show's true themes: the paradoxical nature of love. Every episode has shown us love at its most beautiful and life-affirming, or love at its most selfish and destructive, and the finale is the merging of the two into paradox, where we are left with no easy answers -- or messages -- as the finale actively resists the pure escapism of media that try to preach a statement, however important that statement may be. Or, as James Baldwin said better, "The purpose of art is to lay bear the questions hidden by the answers."
While Joel does say he attempted suicide, and while we can suppose that losing Ellie may make him attempt suicide again, presenting a character who is overly-obsessive about the one he loves to the point of utter (self-)destructiveness is fundamentally different from the show itself suggesting, as a message, that if we "lose what we treasure most our life is over" -- in fact, I would argue that we, as viewers, see this as one of Joel's fatal flaws, not something the show wants us to internalize as an actionable virtue.
So I'd ultimately conclude with this: stating a "message" is often aligned with this "Escapism Epidemic," as it soothes rather than complicates, it tells us what to do rather than awaken us to life's complexity. The Last of Us TV show (and game) ends not on a message but on a moral paradox/question, where we see how Joel turns violent due to his love of Ellie (and his own grief), and we see how Ellie accepts his lie because of her love of Joel (and because it's too painful to realize the one you loved stripped you of your purpose); and, ultimately, we are left alone to sit with the climax's complicated exploration on the paradoxical nature of love as we wrestle with its contradictions. This is the opposite of escapism and it's far more complex -- and profound -- than the proposed escapist message you yearned for the finale to be. So, please, don't turn The Last of Us into Pixar, with "powerful, actionable messages"--I'd rather it stay Shakespeare.
Having said that, I do appreciate that you are one of the few Content Creators who truly dug deep, so keep up the great work :)
You make some very, very good points here. This is an extremely well though-out rebuttal and I appreciate everything you have to say. I’d suggest everyone who wants to think critically about my video read everything you just wrote here. This is my favorite type of mental sparring.
They altered his fatal flaw from the game to show in these decisions, and it decreases the emotional impact by making him obsessive rather than truly loving.
I see where you are coming from. I think where it crosses the line into “escapism” for me, is where his obsession is now glorified instead of his love, and the message is now without nuance. In the game, they insisted on his decision being love, and wanting to spend more time and give her more time with the people they care about, in the show, he feels a compulsory need to save her as an obsession and a need to protect.
The dialogue choices are where I think it becomes escapism. That’s why I focused in on it. They took away all meaningful dialogue that gives nuance to the important message of dealing with grief, and instead use obsessive behavior as a crutch, not as an important message on the nature of love. If it were a more nuanced perspective on the nature of love, the dialogue would support that more. “Save who you can save” appears to be the major message of the game in place of “fight for every second you can have with each other”.
A supporting monologue shift I didn’t even mention in the video, since it was a little outside of scope for this one, was Ellie’s change in motive. I loved that they expanded her monologue about why she’s doing this, but I’d venture to say that not only did they take love out of the equation in that entire monologue, they negated her focus at the beginning on helping others-like she tried with Sam. Instead, she’s focused on “finishing what she started.”.
If the dialogue supported this main theme of it the complexity of love, I’d buy it. But as is, Joel’s decision at the end lost its entire premise as even being love, and replaced it with obsession.
While the end shows Ellie being less than thrilled or trusting in all of it, the story unfortunately still glorifies the obsessive message with their loveless focus throughout Joel and Ellie’s dialogue and behavior. I think your analysis is sound that many episodes focused on love, but what I will discuss in a future video is how they did so in silos. And unfortunately these silos often missed affecting the main relationship of the story, in which the beautiful message of love is overshadowed with that of obsession. And unfortunately they don’t have anything greater to say about how obsession is destructive in nature.
They reward the hero right now, the dialogue replacements throughout her suggest a theme theme of obsession rather than love, the dialogue at the end displays distrust, but they didn’t change it. And in not changing it from when their theme was about learning to live with whatever life throws at us, it now fell flat when it could’ve been an opportunity to actually comment on that fatal flaw in a way that’s meaningful. Because they built up obsession as this flaw, without commenting on its destructive nature, we’re left with a dangerous message, glorifying obsession--to protect who you love at all costs.
I'd also argue that the message of dealing with grief is certainly not trite. If anything, it's the exact opposite of dealing with life by obsession. In handling what life throws at you with a healthy mentality, you don't place your meaning in any one thing to the extent that it becomes obsession. In the game, Joel has character development, but reverts back to his protective nature for love. In the show, Joel no longer has that character development as he just finds a new target for his obsession, and makes his decision based off of that. Both include selfishness, but only the game creates nuance with that selfishness in the form of love.
@@madkurious Thank you for this beautiful response; I truly wish great debates like this weren't so rare :).
I love what you're saying about how the Joel in the TV show is obsessive rather than love-based, and how they glorify the former over the latter; however, is it that he is now pure obsession, or is it that love and obsession have fused in Joel in a murky, messily human way? When TV Joel was running down those hospital hallways, I found myself shaken by how I was watching a character I have come to love become, in so many ways, "the bad guy of the story" in the way Henry had become one when saving Sam and killing Kathleen's brother, while ALSO feeling the genuine love-based objective (however shrouded by unhealed personal grief it may be) that ripped through Joel's heart as he rushed to save his surrogate daughter. I personally didn't find that the show "glorified" his obsession at all: the haunting music, the cuts to the dead soldier or surgeon, I felt like I was watching violence that, while complex due to its love-based objective, never felt heroic, glorified. Instead, I too have come to love Ellie while also wrestling with my own selfish obsession to have her saved--and I found that the episode, like the game, did a great job at making me look at that obsession for all its beauty (as I DO believe it's fused with genuine love) and destruction.
I'm compelled by the change of "fight for every second you can have with each other" to "save who you can save." I wonder if this is the major message of the show, or one shade of the overall theme of love: Bill, the survivalist, becomes a survivalist who ALSO wants to save Frank and "live" until ultimately letting him commit suicide (not saving him, in literal terms) in a beautiful act of sacrifice/love-over-survival; Henry attempted to save who he could save -- Sam -- in the name of love, but validates Marlene's final thesis to Joel when Sam, too, becomes infected and Henry has to kill his brother to save who he can save (Ellie); the most villainous person in the show, David, saves who he can save by feeding his people dead people when there's limited food; the cordycepts themselves work as a group to, through violence, protect themselves and their own as they save themselves; and Joel, having ALL these contradictions inside of him after eight episodes, saves Ellie at the expense of saving humanity. So I would argue that "Save who you can save" is less the message, and more the exploration of "who SHOULD you save, when can't you save, when SHOULDN'T you save," especially when its involving someone you love.
I totally agree with the monologue: it felt, with Ellie, less about her love of Sam & Riley, and more about her obsession with redeeming herself for their deaths (albeit of course not being her fault), and agree that if we felt the love more, in that monologue, it would be all the more powerful.
I look forward to your video on how the theme of love was, detrimentally, done in a silo! I've been wrestling with how I feel about that as well.
Finally, I think this is where we ultimately disagree: I, personally, DID feel like they commented on the destructive nature of "obsession as this flaw" via the narrative storytelling of the whole show and how we (or at least myself) feel at climax. And also because we are told by Ellie herself what she would have wanted ("this can't be for nothing!") and it's on Joel that he didn't listen. Because what if he did? Would actually internalizing what she wanted make him sacrifice her for humanity and actually be able to move on with his life? I think the show makes us actively ask this, which strips it from the dangerous nihilism of "well, if you lose the one you love, you should kill yourself." The show, I believe, does present other options, even if our protagonist is blind to them.
But thank you again for a brilliant, thoughtful rebuttal. It has given me a lot to think about, and I can't wait to learn more from your next video! :)
They made Joel seem more obsessive to try and make his choice and actions seems more villainous so that more people would be supportive of Abby next season. I also don’t think it was “glorified”.
I also feel like the emotions aren't hitting me as hard in the show, when compared to the game.
This could just be because I'm biased, since I already know the game for such a long time and hold it in such high regard, that it would be difficult to get anywhere near it in an adaptation.
But I think that the show is rushing the story which is hurting my connection to the characters.
What irks me the most is that Ellie not being able to swim never becomes an issue.
I 100% agree. Going to touch on this a bit in another video. There’s so much to say about this adaptation. They’ve done a lot of good, but there’s so much that fell short. You’re so right, we’ll never have that moment between Joel and Ellie as a build-up to his birthday surprise for her. And we’ll never get to feel something every time she swims during Part II. It’s really a shame.
Riley still says this line. it's just different dialogue, but she still means the same thing "we dont quit whether it's two minutes or two days, we dont give that up, i dont wanna give that up" which pushes ellie to not give up on joel when he tells her to leave.
I dont think it lost its theme. i just feel it doesnt hit as hard cause their is less infected its a good adaption i just wish their was more infected to emphasise the survival aspect of it but i also understand they dont wanna use them too much like other zombie shows i hope season 2 they find the balance.
Your point on dialogue is fair. My point in bringing up that they removed it though is that they removed the word “fight” which connected it to the end line from Joel. It was something that stood out as so relevant in my first analysis that I connected the two as one paragraph together. Joel says his sentence, and it flows right into Ellie asking “fight for what” where then Riley responds. I’d argue that every dialogue change they decide is very much for a reason, and that they did change the purpose by changing it, this with enough changes, altered the entire theme, purposefully.
Agreed that there are many more reasons why the show resonated differently, why the last episode in particular didn’t hit for most of us who’ve spent time with the game, and that I would enjoyed much more of the infected-though the character building was wonderful to see, so I haven’t personally complained much about that, either. Seems like they could’ve just made the whole thing longer to include a bit more intriguing concepts. Like building this new theme into something that actually had a deeper meaning, more infected, better development of Joel and Ellie’s relationship, and more build up and emotion in the last episode.
You deserve so much more subscribers than you have! That video was beautifully scripted and very well carried out. Great work!
Thank you! I just started posting about a month ago, so hopefully more will come! I have a lot of fun games lined up for this channel.
As always I love your TLOU content! I agree with some parts and disagree with some parts of your discussion here. However, I'm not sure I can respond in words effectively enough to convey the nuance I want to show. I was already working on my full season review of the show so I would like to make a separate video that gives a more detailed response to you. I love the discussion you've started on this though which is why, like you, I love this game so much. It gives you so many things to play around with in your head. I will tag you in the response when I'm done.
Awesome! Sounds great!
First off: I knew when I saw the finale run time I was in for a bit of a disappointment.
I've been aware of the games but never a player, so this is my first time experiencing the story. I have to agree the finale just felt like it just didn't fit with the rest of the story and characters, well except for Ellie.
The opening scene, which I'm not sure is even in the game, felt like an unneeded explanation for why Ellie is immune. The scene's real purpose, of course, was to shoehorn in there that Marlene and Ellie have some connection that didn't really make sense because, as far as I knew, Ellie and Marlene had no idea who each other were until Riley joined the Fireflies. Sidenote - the phantom bites are really getting to be played out, and it's only in season 1. I don't think TWD, a show I stopped watching after 4 seasons, had this many phantom bites in all the eps I watched.
The ep then settled in as they traveled to the city looking for the hospital. My wife and I were really touched by Joel's story about his suicide attempt and then what Ellie means to him. I really like the line you said they took out and wish they would have kept it in there. I also think Ellie handing him the photograph of his daughter would have been really powerful and I can't believe they didn't keep that in there.
After the waterworks, we see another trope that's getting to be played out: Ellie and Joel got jumped. I feel like this is happening far too often, as well. Some surprises are bound to happen and are sometimes required, but I feel like every time something needs to happen, the go-to idea is to have something or someone pop out of nowhere. This works great in a game, but for a TV/movies the audience can be jaded by frequently used plot devices.
From there, the rest of the episode felt like a speed-read through the beats: Marlene is here, Ellie is going to surgery, surgery will kill her, there's nothing Joel can do, let Joel go (oops), Joel goes Die Hard with a dash of T-1000, and Ellie is saved.
I really liked the season as a whole and I'll most likely watch until the very end, but that last episode had to be one of the more disappointing finales to a great season of a show I've ever seen. I think my least favorite part of it is it made me not like Joel, which maybe was the point? But I'm a father of two daughters, and I'd probably do exactly what he did if it was my girls in Ellie's situation, but I still somehow can't feel any kind of good about Joel. First the pendulum swung in one direction where he couldn't handle violence and he would have panic attacks, now the pendulum has swung in the other direction where he will kill anyone and everything to save Ellie, and that's not good, either.
Sorry for the long post, I enjoyed your vid, and I'll be subscribing. Looking forward to some more TLOU and whatever else content!
It's actually interesting, a lot of reactions I have seen have been completely with Joel, saying he was fully right to do what he did. Based on all that I actually thought maybe they didn't make Joel's spree brutal enough, but I guess it really just comes down to everyone's personal preference
As for whether we are supposed to like Joel? We have been told from the beginning of the show thaz he is not a good person, that he's capable of terrible things, and that side had to surface eventually
As for why Joel went from panic attacks and freezing to a T-1000, in my mind, it has to do with the end of episode 6. I think the fact that Ellie chose him, even if he may not be the best protector, gave Joel that extra confidence, belief and motivation to do right by her, at any cost
Imo the only big issue with the finale was that it came a bit too suddenly for me (maybe just cause I've played the game). I feel like some more buildup and breathing room would have benefitted it
Thanks for the kind words!
Ellie and Marlene were connected in the cannon of the game too, and I actually liked how they showed the beginning scene for how it gave Marlene enough character development to explain the largest plothole I saw in the game, which I eventually plan to talk about in another video. I'm still unsure how I feel about the explanation for why Ellie is immune. They didn't include that in the game, so now they've limited themselves, and TLOU3 will have to follow that cannon or greatly diverge from show at that point if they decide to go down a route where they answer that in either medium. But with Neil Druckman on both the show and the game, presumably, he has a plan for this. Hopefully, it doesn't end up being unneeded, but it didn't add anything to this season.
Them getting jumped made me so upset. It was much better in the game--having a moment where she saves him right before he decides to save her. It was also such a cheap move when they've spent the whole season building up side plots, just to have the very last jump be so sudden.
I love your analysis of this from a parents' perspective. I think most of us would make the same decision as Joel, which is likely the writers' point, but the game made us feel for Joel while we made that decision. The show barely made his decision believable, much less made it impactful on the viewer, even if we'd do the same. Thanks for this--it puts into words something I'd thought but hadn't quite vocalized properly.
Agreed! Breathing room was so needed. The game paced it all so much better. I think had there been a better build-up between Joel and Ellie the entire season, like in the game, maybe we wouldn't have noticed or cared how speedy the end was.
Nice touch with the giraffe in the back. I loved that they added the boosting up and ladder sequence since you do it so much in the game. Would love to see more infected, a few molotov cocktails. It bothered me that they made Joel try to commit suicide, Ellie didn't give him the picture of Sarah, no mention of her not being able to swim! Her lack of ability to win compared to how she swam in Pt II was important because it showed how much Joel became a part of her life! I'm sure there's more I can think of, but keep up the great content!
These are very good points. We will never be able to have the full beauty of the flashback because they’ve had two tiny mentions of her love of astronomy, and none of the swimming struggle.
Thanks for noticing the giraffe! You’re the first commenter to notice. My Twitch community voted on this specific giraffe for Part 1 last year.
She mentions she can't swim in the second episode, at the hotel
I honestly felt like the whole season could have been longer. It felt drawn out in meaningless parts and rushed in the moments I really wanted to savor. Now, I've never played the game... although I hope to now. But, just as a story there was so much done well... still, I was left wanting more. Side note: the director commentary and actor interviews after each episode REALLY made the show 100x better! Great video Mad!! Love your friggin face 😻
Thank you, Brandi!
I agree. The expanded focus on side stories was amazing, but they needed to reconnect it to the main plot/characters a bit more. They did connect a bit on theme, but this video is exactly how that turned out problematic. They definitely didn't focus in enough on Joel and Ellie's relationship, and I don't think anyone would've complained about more infected. They only had one really good infected sequence in the whole season. The pacing was weird in parts, especially with how each episode felt like a silo. I really enjoyed the show, but have multiple disappointments, that to me, just solidify the beauty of the game. It's coming out on PC really soon, so hopefully you can play it!
What did you think of HBO's The Last of Us adaptation? Love it? Hate it? I think all opinions are fair. I will consume any TLOU related content, but that doesn't mean I won't look at it with a critical eye👀
They rushed it. This episode should have been at least 60-90 minutes. In general they have fumbled in how they’ve dedicated entire episodes to side characters like episode 4 (what was her name? Kathleen?) and not expounded on the crucial elements such as the hospital scene. Now it feels rushed. 40 minutes for the finale? Really? The last time Joel and Ellie had a significant runtime together was in episode 6? Maybe 7? Fumbled.
I agree that they rushed it and fumbled the end. Great video again @MADKurious. The whole Joel suicide thing was very jarring to me. The way Marlene said "*I have* no other choice" insead of "*There is* no other choice" in the game. Completely changes the motivation and weight behind her actions. Thst's just off the top of my head but I agree, this episode should have been the best or at least equalled episode 8 but widely missed the mark on the emotional level. Pedro never touched his watch...
I will have more to say later...
I was rooting so much that the HBO Series might end the story with Joel and Ellie back at Tommy's and Papa Joel singing Ellie "Future Days". Could have been the perfect ending...Overall still a 10/10 Adaptation imo
It was beyond my expectations, and for the most part I love it, but I feel it could have been better. I almost feel like I have whiplash from the last 3 episodes. They slammed through it super quickly at the end.
This would have been lovely! The ending bit makes me tear up in the game, but it didn't in the show, so they might has well have tried a new ending, in my opinion.
Mad, another banger! Great work.
Fancy, Justin.
Thank you, Fancy Justin!!
Thank you, Fancy Justin!!
Damn good content. Your content is professional. Surprised you don't have more subs
Thanks so much! I just start posting about a month ago. Have a lot planned for this channel. Appreciate it!
*SPOILERS* I have played TLOU Part 1 and 2 completely multiple times, and always got emotional and felt some sort of connection while playing it, but when watching the last episode of the HBO Series when Joel turned himself into a terminator I barely felt any emotion, maybe it's cuz I already knew what was gonna happen but I personally think the Last episode was disappointing and lack on emotional connection unlike any other episode before that.
Referring to Joel as a "terminator" resonates with me. He seemed to lack all nuance in his emotion behind it all. They didn't spend enough time building their relationship as a focus that had much of a message in the show, and it really showed in the finale.
I can only see it as character assassination. They direction tried so hard to make Joel a character with a heart who was good that when he really broke When he NEEDED to hurt and hurt others it was nothing more than him going through the motions. His actions were done with military precision (as indicated with the sticker from episode 1) so they were emotionally detached, the scene pulled back to montage the violence so you could spectate without becoming too entrenched and the music drowned out anything except a few gun shots so there was no impact to be felt. You're left feeling like Joel is just a guy trying to do the right thing.
But he's not. He's a good man who was destroyed and became a monster. And this little girl got his heart to start again. So when his pain comes back he has to make everyone around him feel it. They say "We're bad people" The show does NOTHING to back that up. Truly a disappointment. If I were to sum up the biggest issue I have with the show is that it's Sanitized by comparison to the game. They made it easier to consume for your average viewer.
@@madkurious Yes I completely agree, the time we spent in the game bonding with Ellie is not shown in the same level in the show. And the time when Joel actually starts to show a sense of caring to Ellie was also very later on in the show. It's still a great show but I was kinda disappointed with the finale
Shame the finale was so short though. It was too quick from that walking scene to the ambush one. Like normally you had a part inbetween when you had to fight infected. Now we unfortunately didnt do that. Also they could have given us more depth in the hospital itself. Maybe one last meeting between Marlene and Ellie or some depth about Abby and her father with the surgery. However I still enjoyed this series as a whole.
Bella didn't fill Ashley Johnson's shoes fully
She's not supposed to. It's an adaptation to a more realistic telling of the story. When it's a game the characters are always exaggerated. You have to tone it down a little to make it more believable on screen. The show was never intended to be a copy & paste.
Also Abby is in this episode running away from Joel if you look carefully in the hospital scene!
I saw a video on that! I thought she looked a bit tall since she should also be a child, but what a fun Easter Egg, either way!
@@madkurious She looks older definitely. But since they've aged Joel up and even other characters. I wouldn't be surprised that's her!
@@IngramSnake They've already confirmed it's not her.
I don't think I'm smart enough to understand a lot of the things said in this video but I still agree with what you said at the end about Ellie adding to Joel's life compared to becoming his life. After watching the episode I was kind of unhappy with the ending but I couldn't really place why so I'm happy I found your video and could put some real reasons behind it. Great video and new sub!
Thank you!! I think that feeling of disappointment could be for a number of reasons, but this was the first that really hit me. There’s a reason this game resonated with so many people, and it’s disappointing to see that while the show is successful in entertaining people, it might not have that same effect.
I just discovered your channel, the last of us is also my favorite game of all time, I enjoyed the show as well but I think the show took away too much from the infected.
Agreed! I understand their focus on the character stories, but I would have loved more infected. Hopefully they’ll show a lot more in the next season because the scenes they did have of them were incredible.
Great video
Thank you!! I bet it was slightly unexpected after the watch party, but I sat with it for a bit before figuring out how I really felt about it all.
Pedro Pascal is hot
You've broken this down well. While not a game player, I've watched some play through videos (after seeing a given point in the show). As you note, it appears they've stripped away some of the critical nuance. I fear this distinction may be lost on most. . .even with gamers. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.
*EDIT:* I enjoyed the show a great deal. But that last episode, while good, did leave me with an aftertaste of vague dissatisfaction. I think you may have hit on why.
Great video.
Thanks so much! Watching, by nature, will feel a little less compelling in certain areas simply by missing the inherent immersion of games, but there are differences in these stories that were chosen outside of just the art of tv vs game that I find intriguing, as well. I wish I had felt differently about the finale. I somewhat expected it based on how little they focused on this main relationship compared to telling other stories. A beautiful decision in some ways, but didn't pay off in the end.
This is also why I disagreed with Bill killing himself with frank. Part of life is living after your spouse is gone. Bill’s life isnt over just because Frank is gone. He should have kept fighting to survive until the end like he did in the games. The show tries to argue life is worth living because the people we care about count on us, but it just comes off as “if you dont have anyone left to take care of, your life has no meaning anymore” through Bill’s actions. We are more than what we can give to other people.
This is such a good point! They romanticized obsessive/toxic love there, as well. That’s a perfect example of how this was escapism rather than holding up a mirror to society as they did in the game.
Would it not have been even more beautiful to have seen Bill think about it and change his mind, then find some joy in doing some of the things he was doing at the beginning of the episode?
Amazing point.
@@madkurious Escapism is the word. A normal people in our world might kill themselves if faced with Frank's situation, but I don't think they would in Bill's. It was a really weird way to portray "love," no one in Frank's situation would really want their partner to give up their life and die with them.
This is a brilliant pickup which I hadn't noticed. I knew something was missing but I couldn’t put my finger on it as it has been a long time since I played the original game. That is disappointing they took this direction.
I also felt the line Joel used after Ellie killed David “it’s ok Baby girl” didn’t feel right in the show like it did in the game.
Thank you for the breakdown it was well done 👍
YES! That moment didn’t hit for me. I tear up in the game every time, that’s why that moment is so prominently focused on in my first video. I think the show took a little too much focus off both Joel and Ellie’s developments. I was afraid of that after Ep 3. As much as that episode had me BAWLING, it didn’t do anything for the main characters, and those deviations had an immense effect on the lackluster finale.
I think you're reading too much into it. In the game, at the end, Joel tells Ellie, "...you keep finding something to fight for." It is unspoken in game, but after Ellie's encounter with David, Ellie in fact *DOES* become the thing Joel fights for. He "John Wicked" nearly an entire Firefly base all to save Ellie. He killed how many men in the town just to get to Ellie? I don't think Joel stating that Ellie is his reason for fighting is the "crucial mistake" you're implying. At the end of Part 2, in Joel and Ellie's final conversation, Joel tells Ellie, "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again." This clearly means that not only would Joel do it all again, but the subtext is he would go to *ANY* length to save and/or protect Ellie. He'd do much much worse than what he did at the Firefly Hospital if it meant saving Ellie. I dunno, to me the series conveyed the exact same theme and message despite saying them in different ways.
This is more or less a literary analysis format of thinking (think back to essays you were forced to write on literature back in school). Rather than “reading too much into it”, it’s a common way of exploring the importance of a story. We’re analyzing the themes. This sort of study isn’t of interest to everyone, but it’s unproductive to attempt diminishing a valued craft to “reading too much into it”. That’s why we have the escapism epidemic in the first place.
They altered the theme, based on dialogue changes, and turned Joel’s intent into something dark. It is a mistake in the sense that they had nothing to say about it. It was for the escapism/shock value nonsense too much thoughtless writing relies upon these days.
Rather than us debating the merits of his decision and generally a consensus that he’s both a hero and a villain, the show makes him entirely the villain by way of turning a lesson in overcoming grief into him moving his obsessive behavior onto another target. They also did so with much more violence than necessary in the the game, which I’ll dive into in a separate video because in that area of study, they did some things better and some things worse. When he tells Ellie about his attempt, she says “I’m glad time healed you”, and he says “it wasn’t time” and looks at her. We’re meant to take that as a sweet moment, but it’s actually not. Having someone else heal you rather than finding methods of coping with and overcoming grief, yourself, shows that Joel hasn’t had the character growth that he had in the game. Instead of him overcoming his character flaw to choose to save Ellie, he has a compulsion to save Ellie so he doesn’t lose his reason for existence again. It’s much less beautiful this way.
Even that wouldn’t be problematic if they’d made a greater point about the problem of obsessive love and how it isn’t really love at all. They didn’t change the last lines of dialogue, which is actually now disturbing with the new context, instead of hopeful. It changes Joel’s entire motivation as a character and the main theme of the story.
Furthermore, one thing a commenter pointed out supports this. They did the same thing with Ep 3. It was beautiful. I was heaving sobbing. But it was also disturbing when you think about it. A much better ending might have been seeing Bill choose to go on even when the thing, the person, who brings most of his fulfillment in life is gone. Imagine he’s doing some of the same things he did at the beginning of the episode, and one of those things makes him smile. It ends there. We have a story of hope. Of always finding something to live for. Now, we have Joel lying in the end because the implication is that Ellie is now his reason to live, and he wouldn’t find another without her. It’s sullied the important message on grief and pushing through life even when it hurts.
I could go on, but I say most of this in the video with supporting evidence. I’d recommend watching it again!
@@madkurious ... I see your points, I just slightly disagree. I don't think it was a mistake to do it the way they did, it was just different from the game and that's okay.
🙂🙂
There was definitely something wrong with this final episode, but for me, it was the loss of the through-line of fascism pervading every aspect of power. The show opens with a new scene telling us that a cure is simply not possible. They chose that to be the first bookend on this show for a reason. Then, this adaptation shows us clearly and viscerally how EVERY version of power descends into fascism. First it was the government and Army. Then FEDRA. Then Kathleen with the "free people", and finally with David's settlement. The ONLY non-fascist organization we see is the commune. Because it's a commune, with a COUNCIL. Even the way they treat Ellie and Joel when finding them on patrol proves they choose non-violence, whereas the Fireflies IMMEDIATELY resort to violence in the final episode on a similar patrol. So please tell me how the Fireflies, who are willing to literally kill a child because she MIGHT be able to create a cure that the beginning of the show told us could not exist...were not fascists? They were, in my opinion. To be willing to sacrifice others so flippantly to gain something or uphold a power structure is textbook fascism. And in today's world, where we seem to be descending further and further into fascism, I think making the Fireflies' plan seem actually viable and leaning so heavily on this whole "parental love is illogical and trumps all" theme was frankly, a mistake. They totally dropped the ball. The narrative of the show was honestly unfairly cruel to Joel in this respect. WE the audience know the cure wasn't going to work, because of that opening scene. But by making the Fireflies' plan sound more viable, at least to a layman, it makes Joel's actions out to be far more selfish.
In my opinion, this was an absolute miss. They should have kept the very vague "we *could* learn something from poking around in her brain and killing her is collateral damage" aspect from the game, because it reinforces that through-line of those in power sacrificing others for a chance at survival, or some kind of hope. Instead, it was presented by Marlene and arguably the narrative as almost fact, as basically a sure thing. But let's be real here. They were NOT going to be able to find a cure at that point, TWENTY-THREE YEARS after the world fell apart, with dilapidated technology, one scientist and no access to research and even factories. Where were they gonna mass-produce this cure? It took 2 years with virtually unlimited funding, numerous countries working together, and building on pre-existing research to make a covid vaccine which only works for some, or only works marginally. And this show wants me to believe Joel's choice was just illogical, fueled by parental love, and possibly doomed humanity? I call BS.
But maybe the narrative is hoping we remember that opening scene. There can be no cure. They added that for a reason. And I think it was to remind us that Joel WAS right, even if the episode made his choice out to be completely selfish. I just think they should have leaned on that fascism theme harder and made it clear the Fireflies were BS as well. It wouldn't have felt as empty as the direction they went.
I love this. There could have been such better meaning to all of it had they leaned into this message. They had so much opportunity to say something, anything, and moved into the “we did this to get your eyeballs on it. That’s it. That’s the message Tehe”. Thank you for sharing this! Really good thoughts.
@@madkurious Thank you so much for saying so! I really got into my feelings about the showrunner's & writer's commentary after the episode about the central theme being Joel's parental love trumping logic. Like, why would you tell me that? What's REALLY illogical is for Marlene to think that killing Ellie is the only way to get a cure when she literally has knowledge of how the immunity occurred. Why wouldn't she be pushing for placental-focused testing, where a living, breathing teenager doesn't need to DIE? IMO, the addition of the Marlene and Anna backstory makes *Marlene* even MORE monstrous than in the game because she had a deep personal connection to this girl's mother, literally witnessed the aftermath of the thing that caused the immunity, and she somehow thinks that killing Ellie is the right solution? And she's come to terms with it? Because it's the best thing for humanity? She's throwing away *her* humanity on a lark trying to be a hero "for the greater good" instead of using logic to figure out how the immunity happened based on the facts she has...but the writer wants us to think JOEL is the illogical one? It's a miss for me. Which is a shame, because the rest of the show and even the episode itself are gorgeously done otherwise.
Tell me you don't have children, without telling me you don't have children.
Yet I still wake up with a reason to live.
I didn’t even say whether I’d save her or not (which I probably would), just that his reason for it in the show is unhealthy compared to the beauty of his reason in the game. Sacrificing for offspring is understandable, making them the purpose of your entire existence takes a beautiful thing a bit too far.
I have experienced making specific people in my life too important. The lesson of getting through all-consuming grief is important-and they’ve removed that from the show and replaced it with romanticizing toxic love. They could have easily edited more dialogue to support having a message on it, but instead went the route of escapism.
That’s why it’s a hard truth, losing anyone should not cause you to end your life as well. It’s understandable to have that level of pain, but to have wrapped your entire existence in one human is a form of obsession. Did you have a reason to wake up in the morning before you had a child? No matter how much pain we’re in, no matter how much we lose, we should always find reasons to keep living. Including parents.