Side-glow fibre optic is still terrible
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2021
- I've never really been impressed by side-glow fibre optic material. It's a specific type of fibre optic that is lossy, so it emits light along its full length. The downside of that is that it also loses intensity along its length.
When it first appeared commercially it was touted as the new replacement for neon, with overexposed marketing pictures to swamp out the camera and make it look brighter and more consistent than it is. I can recall seeing it in use on the front of a building in Florida, and there was a bright light source at both ends that rapidly faded to the middle of the strip.
This stuff is aimed at car interiors where the "skirt" or fin is intended to be jammed between abutting interior surfaces. Electroluminescent wire would do a better job for low level linear illumination over a reasonable length.
The light source module is the best bit of this product. It has potential uses for illuminating a bundle of traditional fibre optics. The sources are available on their own with a choice of port diameter.
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i like how he says watch your eyes because he knows we are all watching in rooms where the screen is the only light source and will blind us
We really are a predictable lot aren't we.....
ever hear the phrase " takes one to know one"??? ;)
I solved that problem by having TWO screens!
you know what is interesting? you can watch a full white image on your monitor without any problem, but when you see a video where somebody flashes a light into the camera's direction, you feel like it hurts your eye. but it is the same maximum white image on your monitor :)
@@Flashy7 i actually had to get an app to make google search results a dark grey because the white blinds me
That housing is just screaming "worlds smallest lightsaber" to me for some reason, regardless if it's true or not.
Ay me too
Lightsaber for ants?
www.reddit.com/r/thingsforants/
*_Light Letter Opener._* 😊
I recently got my kid a ginormous mouse pad with side-glow RGB lights. It's a bit under a meter wide, and a half meter or so deep. All told, it's roughly 2m/7' of light pipe. It doesn't use the "skirt" style, and instead is stitched in with monofilament around the tube. The two ends of the light pipe meet up at the control box, which shoots light down both ends. It's a passably good effect, and doesn't seem as bad as this example. They're about $20 (USD) on Amazon lately, so the material can't be expensive at all, if one can find it. I suspect the fact that it's totally round versus having that little tab makes a big difference (unless they controlled material properties very carefully in constructing the tab, it's going to chew up a few percent of the total internal reflection, which adds up quickly).
I actually have one of those too! It's at most about a 25% decrease in intensity at the darkest point across the 2m or so of fiber optic, so I think it's quite good. It's not as transparent as the fiber optic in this video though, so that might have something to do with it.
One meter wide? That's at least a _cat_ pad.
I have a SteelSeries LED gaming pad, that sounds about the same as what you got him. The edge of the whole pad is definitely over a meter, and I don't notice any loss either. I suppose it just depends on the overall quality of the fiber optic used and the strength of the laser?
@@TheMadmanAndre I had the qck prism XXL and it rings true for that too, I think that what helps is the stitching holding it on as I could see it helping the light along, I think if you took the time and used semi transparent material and/or put it against and opaque surface you could get the light to go much further and be more even along the desired length as well
That's not a *_mouse,_* that's a *_capybara._* 😉
I use to do real fiber optic cable repairs. Not sure if it plays a big part here but making sure the fiber optic is 100% cut flat to ensure the “light” travels the entire length is crucial. Might try cutting the end again and having a smooth and 90° cut to the fiber cable might make a big difference
I think it shouldn't even be called fiber optic.... It's an led with a clear tube attached.
In a company I was once working at they were even sanding the glas fiber (up to 10k grit wet sanding) after cutting it at 90°. But they used the thicker fibers (roughly 1 millimeter diameter) for transporting the light to measuring/test equipment, not the tiny ones for for data transfer.
@@starmc26 Right. It's not even fully transparent, which real fiber optic cable is. That stuff there that Clive had on the bench is so opaque it dulls the light at a certain distance.
@@chrishuhn5065 They do that when repairing normal comms laser/led fiber for networks. Or at least they did 10 years ago before everyone started getting fusion splicers. I agree with another commenter, re-cut the end going into the LED to get the flatest, clean cut. More than likely though the Manf. of these things are using the absolute worst, 2nds/3rds/remnants from some OEM.
Considering fiberoptics work by total internal reflection, this breaks total internal reflection to leak it out the side. Quite frankly from a physics point of view, this is expected.
Note that the hat has an LED at each end and I bet it has less than 600mm of fibre round the peak.
less than 23 inches ? no, really
@@boris2342 Clive mentioned 600mm as the maximum usable length in the video. @Jon Knight was saying that the brim of the hat uses less than the maximum that Clive said.
@@HiddenWindshield hat innn;gdd?.
I just got the 3mm "side light" flex solid tube. Thanks for the demo. Looked a long time before you showed me what I needed to see. A bright light coming from each end of I get to apply it.
At least you have that great switch and the housing is nice
How is this comment 3 weeks old when the video is 4 hours old?
@@ericgillespie2812 Patreon? How early of videos do Patrons get?
@@colejohnson66 oh right. I forgot patreon was a thing. One day when i have money i look forward to supporting the people that give me inspiration.
Clive, as you unrolled the coil the light spread seemed to improve ... perhaps they were not expecting a lot of tight corners around the car panels?
@@lasdkfh0la I own these. Then fewer the total degrees of turns and the less sharp, the better the light is
Yes, they only function with wide curves as you want to maintain total reflection within the fibre. Thinner fibers can therefore take sharper turns.
The light looked like it made it about 360 degrees before significantly fading.
That pesky inverse square law appears yet again 🤣
Totally random but i just wanted to say i had no idea you were credited with the creation of the joule thief circuit. You really are amazing. Many thanks!
When I coined the name I didn't realise it was going to develop a life of its own.
I'd given serious thought to one of these kits to add ambient lighting in my car. I am glad to see I held off for the time being. Unmodified it has a ways to go.
You might be interested in "EL" or "electroluminescent" wire, but you probably already know about it. You can get it in long sections, probably even on a spool and is driven by a small, high voltage power supply (usually powered by two AA batteries). The light output, along the lenght of it, is pretty much consistent and it comes in many different colors.
I think he knows: th-cam.com/video/NpiddGxC7jo/w-d-xo.html
I've been thinking of doing a costume with these for a little while and it's nice to see where their limitations are. Thanks for posting this.
You may want to use el wire, similar fexablity, and stronger light. You can also get el panels.
You can also use thinner stuff made for cars, or even fibers made for clothing!! AliExpress has tonnes of it!
That looks properly taken to bits! Used to love all the Fibre optic toys that I grew up with, wish I had some to take to bits now.
Thank you Clive
What I am finding helps greatly is double end lighting plus a silver/chrome reflective coating on the non exposed side
It seems to me that to make this look even the lossy-ness of the fiberoptic cable would have to vary along the length, something like:
loss = 1/(L-x)
where L is the length of the cable and x is the distance from the light source. At that point you might as a well use a bundle of red, green, and blue EL-wires to get your preferred color. On the other hand, edge-lit LCD display diffusers did manage to solve this problem, so perhaps it's more tractable than it appears at first.
I've used fiber optics in a number of art projects. One technique I've used is to use a sharp knife to score the cladding (just a small nick) crosswise to the long axis, every few centimeters. The nicks in the cladding allow light to leak out and make tiny bright points of light along the length. This really only works for shorter lengths of a meter or less, but the effect is still neat looking (the points of light are much brighter than the normal edge glow).
The USB cables with the scribed fibre look great. A very sharp series of dots along the length.
The stuff that you could get for the Martin Pro-400 was pretty good.
I have purchased some fibre optic with a solid core. It helps with side emitting dispersion, and distributes more evenly along the length. Laser wire is also really fun to use.
The stuff I got looked stiffer than the one you showed. The fibre is 2 part, an inner fibre core (2mm) and an outer sheath giving an OD of 3mm. That's presumably what makes the difference.
I used a simple 3mm led with a 1K resistor and heat shrink to fasten it on, about 10mA from 12V, it works fine all along its length.
I haven't seen any like that with the side strip for stitching. Search for "2mm fibre 3mm outside diameter" to find it. About £2/metre.
If yours is also 2 part you could try pulling the fibre across a sharp edge to introduce some microfractures.
EL wire with the same 'tab' is available in multiple colors. Seems like it'd be preferable. Thanks for doing this, I was just considering getting some.
Nifty housing, with great modification potential! Short fibreoptic bundle mounted facing vertically, and a green LED - instant illuminated tree!!
Reminds me of the same rubbery plastic stuff used to make FM T-shaped antennas for your hifi tuner and you'd tack it to the wall using that "curtain". Maybe they're leftovers that someone thought..."lets shine an LED down this, ok good enough".
I put these in my car around the door edges. Every turn is a significant drop off in light. So for 140 inches I have two less at either end. It works pretty well, but definitely still has that drop off. However it still lasts way longer than El wire
You earned a like digging that Si out
I like your videos so much
Makes me wonder how it would work with actual laser, got some laying around to test real laser with it?
call StyroPyro! He'll not only have it glowing, but burning up like flash paper.
I was thinking the same thing.
how to blind everyone in line of sight of the thing
I tried it with my 500 mW blue laser and it works just as well as a bright blue led... about 30" lit up, the odd thing is that it doesnt fade linearly, it drops off rather quickly once you get past 25"
@@bunnykiller probably because laser emit a very specific wavelength vs an led which emit a broader less specific wavelength of light.
What's needed is a clearer fiber, one that wouldn't bleed any light at all, with some very small 45 degree cuts on the non-visible side, spaced far apart close to the LED, with decreasing space the further away from the LED they get. This is used in the "DRL"s of a lot of newer cars to get an interesting shape of the light all while using a single (or a few) LED (s).
I purchased some of the same stuff but without the mounting "skirt" and its just as dismal in producing the desired effects. Even with a 500 mW blue laser, the length of "glow" was about 30 inches. The dia of the "fiber" is 2 mm. I also have a keyboard/mouse pad surrounded by a different type of fiber optics and it is about 70" total length and glows brightly in standard overhead lighting.. why the difference, I have no idea, but what I did find interesting is if you press on the fiber with a hard thin material ( like the edge of a credit card) it glows very bright at the point of contact. If you press too hard the fiber can be perminently damaged and will glow brightly at the compression point where the damage occured. Over time, the led supplying the glow fades and the effect becomes diminished on the keyboard/mouse pad ( made by luxcoms and hcman).
Keep going . you just made amazing content
With fibre optic the end surface to surface connection is very important. Data using glass fibre used to be quite difficult to terminate, lots of polishing to get an end good enough. Pre-terminated connectors came along where a small section of fibre was already in the connector and with a special tool the fibre cable is cleaved cleanly producing an end that is good enough to mate with the fibre in the connector without polishing. Obviously the same precision is not required for decorative lights as opposed to serious data networks but the interface of the LED and the plastic fibre cable is still likely to be important. Of course the quality of the plastic cable will also make a real difference and the skirt probably doesn't help to produce a good cable as these are probably extruded hot through a hole with a slot to one side for the skirt, in one go.
The proper led glow pipes are manufactured to have specific diffraction angles which optimises light strength vs how far it is away from source. Also if they used actual fibre optic glass it would be better at controlling the light. Typically however the most gains are how powerful led's/laser diodes vs pipe length.
Thanks for the video! Is there one one you would suggest? I said at the end of the video, "Better options?
Wonder how it would do with a collimator and a green LED source for maximum colored brightness.
Hiya Clive, I wonder how a laser light would work in the same housing? Or on its own shining down the fibre optics and how far down that would go in comparison with the LED's
You can introduce defects with a needle to make many small light points
sanding with a very fine sand paper helps; but the light intensity falls off exponentially faster.
thnx, was about to buy one 👍👍👍
I wonder if it has something to do with the optical coupling. The best edge-lit etched acrylic lights i've seen so far have the led or led strip embedded in the acrylic itself
I think it's the purity of the material. If the polymers are misaligned or there's impurities inside the material you get this sort of thing.
Chuck a 15CM long acrylic rod in that and you've got a lightsabre with a Luke Skywalker blue blade!
💚🐇🐴💚
Have you checked out EL tape/cable. It was used in tron 2 in clothing. Its basically high voltage, low amps, reactive material. Quite interesting and does a bit better for length. Electro phosphorescence material.
these work better with a lazer, and surprisingly angles, the more "bent" the light pipe is the longer it glows, im assuming because it adds more surface to reflect off of.
also, i have these in my car, they work best if you flatten the end of the LED and put the fibre directly onto it, then encase the whole end in black shrink tube or electrical tape so that all of the light is going into the tube instead of outward from the led.
There is a trade-off involved in the design of these. At each point along the length, a certain fraction of the light escapes, and the remainder (ignoring losses) continues along the fibre. As a result the apparent brightness of the fibre will drop off exponentially as the distance from the source increases. If the fibre allows a lot of leakage, you see a lot of light near the source, but the drop-off in brightness happens faster. If the fibre only allows a little leakage, the drop-off will be less but you won't see much light anywhere. If a substantial fraction of the light makes it to the end of the fibre, a mirror would be advantageous.
Even if you had perfect distribution of the light, the overall surface area of the fibre is fairly large and so one should not expect it to look particularly bright. It looks like you have about 2m of the stuff, and its circumference is about 1cm, so the total area is 200cm2, about the same as a 14cm square.
The key is to choose fiber material and surface finishes which result in very low loss per unit length, then drive the living F out of it with specialized lighting. The best version of this I have seen is a very large diameter hollow plastic tube.
If you straighten the fiber out, you will find the darker parts will light up as the light mostly escapes at corners.
I imagine if you were routing it around the interior of a car cabin, it would have some long straight parts and then few corners so the brightness would be averaged out along the length better.
Cool light saber whipp✌️
I recently picked up about 3m of this stuff from amazon for a project. I only need it to illuminate a line about 90mm long, so it'll work fine for me I got mine without the LED, but i'm gonna make a little bracket to hold the fiber as well as a neopixel. I also tried it without the clear rubber sheath, but found that it worked even more poorly without it.
Side glow cable works due to microscopic cracks along its surface. I have improved lengths of PMMA side glow cable by lightly crushing it with a steel roller although it is tricky getting even illumination along its length like that. Multiple core cable is much better.
A good way to get more ‘glow’ further away from the led source is to use ordinary fibre optic strands and distress the cable (with rollers or course sand paper) in the areas that you want to side emit.
There is a relationship between the fall off of light that occurs in fibre optic cable and the quality of the cable material/wall. The more light that spills out through the wall, the weaker the illumination gets over distance.
If you were to try using a stronger light source there wouldn’t be much improvement in side glow, just a slightly longer bright length and more glow at the end.
Ideally the light should all be diverted out through the micro cracks in the wall, so any glow at the end signifies that the cable isn’t efficiently treated on its surface.
I've used the older hard acrylic "light guide tubing" type of this for car lights, signs, etc for... oh heck, decades at this point, but never really liked the softer side-glow fibre optic stuff, due to the same issue you are showing here. One thing that was NOT an option back then, but might be now, is an idea that just popped into my head seeing this video. That "skirt" part there... what if you stuck one of those new mini-led strips with the 2025 I think they are? Super-slim little side-firing SK6812 addressable LEDs. Would that be picked up enough if you tilted it just a bit, do you think? Angle it into the skirt sideways, pointed towards the joining point between the skirt and the strip?
I have been using them for years.
You need the slightly heat the PMMA (material its made from) at the cut end so it is completely clear. You will get 10 x the performance if its cut clean and polished. Also whe you insert the into the light it must make firm contact with the lense.
Is it the same if you use a red led? Just wondering if the internal reflectance is better with longer wavelengths.
Putting a reflector on the end or another LED will increase the usable length.
OMG!!! YOU are who I've been looking for even though I didn't know it. Mr Light Man I need your help. Have you seen or worked with LED strip lights called s something like "fexible z strip" or "s strip"? They allow wrapping the strip almost in a circle but with the lights facing up or down instead of inside or outside of the circle. (I want to DIY some grow lights for house plants that would be tucked under each level of a circular plant stand).
Curious to see what effect it would have with a cheapo laser instead of an LED since lasers are more directional
The concept reminds me of El wire but without the breaking on sharp bends issue.
I tried EL wire once and always got a buzzing noice then it was lit. Is this normal or did I get chinesium?
I Wonder if a small Laser pointer would do a better job at illuminating the tube
Nice video.
“Tron” blue is what you’re looking for Clive
Not making curves may make a difference with this material. I wonder if the wavelength of the light has anything to do with the properties?
Thank you for saving few bucks for me..i was thinking about getting a 3meter of this and attaching to my kids bunk bed.. Thank you!!
As BC mentioned, the LED "neon" strip is quite fun, works well and isn't very expensive ($16 / 5m, IIRC); also runs at (typically) 12V, so is kid-safe.
BC's review: th-cam.com/video/cR-bepWcplc/w-d-xo.html
I use side emitting fibre all the time, up to 10mm dia, and it is almost as bright as neon if less than 3 ft length. If longer, drive from both ends. You need to drive them with 5-10W Cree LED chips, and these you have to make yourself as 1W like you used here is all there is. I buy 5W Cree Chips mounted on a substrate. Then that is attached via thermal epoxy to a solid circular piece of aluminum, maybe 1" dia via 2" long.. Then another heat sink on the bottom depending on ambient air flow. Then I make (on a lathe), an aluminum cover with the appropriate size fiber hole, grub screw, that goes over the chip. These leds come in colors. You drive them with a constant current source, NOT CONSTANT VOLTAGE. There are super cheap CC drivers made for any wattage of LED as these are what are used in higher power LED bulbs. RESISTORS DON"T WORK ON THESE NEW HIGH POWER SILICON CARBIDE LEDS!
So the ballcap is the perfect use case, it doesn't work much longer than that. I want to get one of those caps and replace the switch with one from a tactical flashlight/torch -- one position for always-on, to light up the workpiece, and one for flashing rave mode.
Hi! :)
Can I ask you, is it OK to solder this light source module directly to + and - of the LED strip?
Thank you in advance!
The housing looks like it could fit a cheap laser diode emitter. Would they provide a better illumination?
Add a reflective surface at the end and it might help.
I mean if it wouldn't "loose" light over the the distance it would hardly be "side-glow". It can't amplify the light put in. Sure, the coupling won't be great in the first place, but you can't be surprised that it stops glowing after a relatively short stretch. The side-glow bit is the thing that real fiber-optics tries to avoid as much as possible.
Yes, just what I wanted to comment....
There's obviously a balance that must be struck.
Some form of gradated mirror coating could be applied to even out the emissions, it's just acrylic (or polycarbonate I looked it up) so you could use regular chromed plastic equipment.
It seems the concept of side lit light piping is flawed from the beginning. You could improve the performance with laser cut mirror arrays, like it's done in LCDs, but you're just better off backlighting along the length. Gives uniform glow and looks better.
If the light leakage could be made more uniform, then the intensity drop would be spread over more filament and have a better effect
5:02 lol at the aftermath, Clive doesn't mess around!
I wonder if the light refraction improve if you polish the end of the fibre optic? Probably not much though.
The rate of light attenuation seems about on par for acrylic (PMMA) resin, which loses about 90% of light passed through it after 1M of length.
I've had an idea to try to make a side emitting fiber costume wig. Just been too lazy to try it but at the length of hair I think it would work quite well, especially if I can get it to work with RGBs.
AliExpress got ya covered! Looked it up and there's great stuff there!
@@SpotTiger In fact that's where I got the idea from. I can get if I understand this right a 6 km roll of fiber for about 150 bucks It's really thin stuff but that's exactly what you'd want for hair.
Energy is conserved. The light either 1) comes out the other end, 2) comes out the sides, or 3) is absorbed and converted to heat. "Side glow" fiber explicitly has scatterers in it or surface defects around it to let light escape and glow. Light that escapes near the LED is not in the fiber farther from the LED. The intensity in the fiber decays exponentially,
I(x)=I0*exp(-ax).
The brightness of the glow is the product of 1) light intensity in the fiber I(x), 2) density of scatterers, and 3) transmission coefficient of the fiber-air surface. It is possible to grade the scatterers' density along the fiber, d(x)=d0*exp(ax), so that this product is constant; however, this would be a much more expensive and restrictive process and product. By injecting light into both ends, they have done the second best:
I(x)=I0*[exp(-ax)+exp(a{x-L})].
Maybe a Lazer might work better to light the full length.had one that work on 3km lengths of Fibre Optic when I was no the field joining cables
Looking at the fitting. Could you try using a laser pointer instead? I assume the stronger light source would go further. They have a similar aperture on cheap units.
It was disappointing with a laser too.
Fibre optic like this will likely always have an issue.
If you are trying to direct it out the side, then you reduce the intensity of the light going further along, which will in turn make it dimmer, with the brightness decreasing exponentially as you go along the fibre optic.
In order to make it look reasonable I see 2 possibilities. One is to have an extremely bright LED and only have a very small portion of the light be scattered out to the side so the majority just goes through the fibre optic to the other end (possibly with mirrors to help with efficiency?). The other is a complex fibre, designed for a specific length which effectively acts like a bunch of tiny fibre optic cables to make the the light output linearly, as if you had a bunch of separate fibre optic cables with their ends equally spaced along the length of the tube.
I would also be hesitant to use electroluminescence due to the voltage requirements.
try sticking leds at both ends, makes this fairly usable
They work fine when long. It is more important, that they are straight. What lowers the brightness is mainly curves as you want to maintain an angle of total reflection.
Wonder what would happen if you swapped the LED for a laser diode
I have an idea, but it's 'faffy'. Every so many inches/cm add an LED/s held with clear hot glue, maybe two pointing down line by cutting the 'fibre' part leaving the skirt there. You can add the colours of choice to blend along? It just means having a wire travelling along the skirt. I did say it was 'faff'y'. BC have you tried it with a laser LED?
The problem with the fiber is, that it is symmetric along its length. It radiates a fixed fraction of light per length that runs through it. One could fabricate a cable that would leak a higher and higher fraction of the light to compensate, to have relatively even brightness along its length. But such a changing cable would be much more expensive to mass produce. But maybe a homogenous cable and fraction expose or coating along its length?
You should try shining a very nice-coloured laser in the fiber optic, maybe it works better
I wonder if the lighter length would brighten if you terminated the other end, say, by putting a finger over it.
Could you replace the LED with a laser pointer diode?
Having one led module on each side will probably make it a bit better, I know that's not how it's supposed to be, really think it will make a big difference
The designed-for-laser stuff is much more effective, but also ridiculously expensive comparatively. "Laser Wire" by ellumiglow is the only thing that has actually met my expectations for relative illumination over length.
wonder why the glowy usb cables work so much better?
Sidemount WS2812b LED strips are the way to go (or any equivalent or better chip)
I hear that the glass fibre made by Corning is very good.
I'd say that plastic is just simple clear PVC piping, used in umbrellas and the like, not true fiberoptic. I might sew that into the edge of some custom floor mats for my car just for fun.
How would it go with a laser diode up the end of it?
I was wondering how it'd look with a laser.
I tried it in a live stream and it wasn't great.
@@bigclivedotcom yeah I figured that might be the case... Maybe brighter at the end but not perpendicular...
Maybe styropyro could find a suitable laser
It makes sense that it would get dimmer. That is a diffusive plastic. So the brighter you want it to be near the source, the more quickly it will get dimmer. The only way to avoid this is to continuously adjust the composition of the plastic along the length such that near the source it transmits the light more efficiently and becomes more diffusive further along the length. It would VERY difficult. Or you could just have a SUPER BRIGHT LED at the start so that it can travel much further and still be bright. That comes with it's own issues.
Hmm... sub out a laser for the led. Would the transmission be better???
Ya the vice of knowledge. Guess your limited if you want your helmet-hat rim to glow.
Nice video. 2x👍
At that rate you might as well get addressable LED neon.
Laser diode in the housing please Clive!
A bit of math could have "saved" tearing the LED housing apart. But for fun and "completeness" might as well take it apart.
Wonder if that stuff will be brighter if you use a laser as light source.
5:40 Did the LED die come off when you removed the phosphor layer? That could explain why it didn't light up anymore.
Either that or ripped off the bond wires
ellumiglow does some laser wire stuff that does some really interesting things that blows this out of the water
I've seen pimped up cars with 'glowing tubes' running across the outline. It's not my kinda thing but the effect was very good. Is that a completely different technology then? Cause even optimized I can't see this going very far before noticeably dimming.
Cold cathode and electroluminescent wiring are other more expensive, but more consistent options
Could a low power laser pointer be used safely as the light source? Lots of emphasis on safely.
We tried one on this material in a stream and it still wasn't great.