I love this line: "Games are more interesting when they're unshackled by expectations of a narrow-minded fan-base or the financial whims of a publisher." I agree and I am especially exasperated with fan-bases. "Narrow-minded" hits it on the nose.
Tell me about it, man. No warping from the beginning and the interconnected world is what made Dark Souls 1 so special, but you wouldn't believe the number of people that prefer fast travel from the very beginning just because it's more convenient. Narrow-sided is right, yeah. They don't see how immersion and the sense of adventure gets so much better with no warping allowed until the Lordvessel.
It was actually kind of heart breaking to have seen the reception of the „Demon‘s Souls“ remake got by the people who started their „souls“ journey with „Dark Souls“. „Man, this swamp level is the worst level in the entire series, the game would be better without it!“ „Why do I always have to re-play the final level again before re-fighting False King Alant again? The newer games knew to give you a bonfire just before the final boss fight!“ „The Bosses are so easy. I mean, the only reason why a boss like the Fool‘s Idol is hard because you might not figure out imediatelly to kill the guy in the balcony! That‘s just an unfair gimmick, the boss itself is really easy!“ Because the most mainstream popular game up to that point was „Dark Souls 3“, which is the lost conveniently game-y one, most people kind of missed the point of why „Demon‘s Souls“ got famous and why it was considered „hard“.
If there’s anything I’ve learned over the years, it’s that “gamers” (meaning the general gaming public) sees any kind of gameplay that isn’t explicitly entertaining as being “bad design”.
@@ImortalZeus13 And neglecting that purposeful "bad" design can enhance a games immersion such as Silent Hill 4s gameplay systems which were sorely misunderstood and criticized with SH4 remaining the consistently lowest rated of team silents creations, despite being their least dissonant game. Understanding this is the difference between being a "gamer" and "one who plays games", one who plays games want to kill xx amount of hours with minimal frustration neglecting the artistic component of the medium over playability or other barriers of entry.
Cause it is, dark souls was suppose to be the original. Demon souls was a test to see what works so in that regard it's basically a released alpha of dark souls 1. Everything after dark souls 1 went down hill. I do not agree with what he said about bosses in ds1 defensive mechanics. Shields are still more than viable and parrying gwen is possibly the best way to beat him so he is wrong here.
@LeadFaun dark souls 2 was a content packed game but was a mess. Bloodborne I love but not as an RPG just a action game. Alot of stuff in there is pointless honestly, you can LITTERALLY start the game with the strongest weapon and never need anything else. R1 is the best way to play, you don't need to party, back stab is complicated for no reason, shield is garbage I mean it's basic at best but I love the atmosphere. Dark souls 3 is nothing but phase 2s that you expect the ENTIRE TIME with no creative freedom or creativity in different builds. Demon souls is one of the worst in the series but it's unique and I think dark souls 1 blew up for all the right reasons and demon souls did not for all the right reasons
@LeadFaun that makes it unusable bro. That's like giving someone a gun but they can't shot it until they are up close. Why would I wait till I knock him out before I can back stab em? That's ruining your chances and you have to really give up on your beliefs at that point. Just cause he found it as an improvement doesn't mean we all do and obviously not from soft sense it's simple change and it still didn't come back. Might as well not had it at all by that point. You litterally sit there charging up something behind some on then you get to stab em smh a better fix would be to not allow back stabs if someone was moving. This would make it so they have to have been in recovery frames or unaware of the person behind them. If not that just remove it entirely and just do parrying only or just reduce backstab damage to a normal heavy damage
this video is 7 years old... insane how things were for dlc right now. dark souls movement and combat were being forced to fight a literal anime edge lord now.
my thoughts exactly. I feel like fromsoft is slowly learning more and more wrong design choices. I think one of the reasons why sekiro felt so satisfying is because it was a spectacle fighter and it let you have that power to deal with the insane bosses you deal with. Elden ring is a game where you are a random dude being flung against the walls by a super saiyan. It's kinda frustrating because they have a lot of cool interesting things going on even now and they are still miles better than ubisoft but i'm afraid they are slowly gonna go down that road
You briefly touched on it but part of the appeal to me going from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls was that both games had different settings with their own themes and imagery. Demon's Souls was a melancholic low fantasy setting with Abrahamic-esque imagery and themes, while Dark Souls was a dark reflection of high fantasy with a more overtly themes of doom. Each game felt different because they weren't constrained by the same setting and had a finished arc where the setting's story was complete. That's why Dark Souls 2 and 3 felt like they lacked the same impact, because they were retreading older ground and had to work around a setting that was already closed within its own story, instead of making something new to work with. This is why Bloodborne interested me from day one, because it's a new setting with a completely different tone and influences and isn't limited to previous games as to what it can do with its setting or story. The fact that it presents itself as gothic horror at first and then turns into cosmic horror is an example of what they can do when the developers are allowed to try something new. I do wish I didn't know this last detail, though, because I feel like when I finally get to play Bloodborne I would have liked to experience the twist myself.
@@ArilandoArilando Low Fantasy: _"A subgenre of fantasy fiction in which magical events intrude upon an otherwise-normal world."_ This does fit Demon's Souls, as the soul arts (the source of magic in the setting) is not a natural part of the setting, but instead is something that is released upon the world whenever someone awakens and makes a deal with the Old One, as King Allant did. The kingdom the game takes place in was a mundane one until magic was reintroduced and corrupted it. High Fantasy: _"A subgenre of fantasy fiction defined by the epic (in the literary sense) nature of its setting or by the epic stature of its characters, themes or plot."_ This describes Dark Souls very well.
@@ArilandoArilando No, not in Demon's Souls. Dragons and magic were introduced by the reintroduction of soul arts to the world; this is explained to the player at the very beginning of the game.
@@matthewmuir8884 I do not remember the particular details, and Demon's Souls lore like all Souls games is vague, but what you're saying cannot be true as the shrine of the Dragon God is implied to be very old. There are of course also faith based miracles in the game which are not based on soul arts.
Bandai Namco is developing Code Vein in house, because it seems that From Soft is not currently developing a souls game. A while ago it was confirmed they were working on Armored Core 6, I'd be incredibly happy if Miyazaki were the director, since his last foray was a very new direction for the series. I don't know how everybody else feels about that though, I imagine most don't wanna play a mech game.
tbf I think that if they made some changes to Grass, it could really improve the game. Also, I think that the visual changes are overall pretty great, excluding Flamelurker. That being said, if they change World Tendency too drastically or change really anything regarding level/enemy design, it would change the experience too much for me.
@@edgali I also thought vanguard looked pretty generic. The original felt like an eastern interpretation of a western demon. Whereas the remake just looks like western demon.
@@JKSmith-qs2ii Now that the game is out we can see how "western" the game became. The fat officials and vanguard being the biggest changes. Stockpile Thomas now looks like a total wanker.
@@digitalintent in the original he looked like a aging, but still somewhat young father/husband. In the remake he looks like James Corden wearing a shitty fake moustache. Facial movements are also extremely unsettling.
like fine wine edit: And i'm not saying nightreign will be garbage, FROM making a spinoff game that heavily reuses assets is nothing new and reusing assets is something more game devs should be doing. My problem with it is so far the premise of the game sounds bland. "Co-op Elden Ring but there's preset hero characters that auto level ups and you run around the lands between before a battle royale shrinking circle gets you while fighting enemies across the Soulsborne games." This type of game I guess is "new" from FROM but it's retreading the same archetype of game we've seen pumped out for the past several years now.
This is such an excellent video, not just on the Souls games, but on game design as a whole. It's probably like my fourth time watching this, but I feel like I'm just now truly understanding everything you were trying to convey here. As I've thought about game design over the years I keep coming back to the conclusion that the best design moments in games that prioritize immersion come from adapting from real life directly, and then cutting down from there to arrive at the most sensible mechanics to express that complex experience, rather than starting with an established genre or framework and then stretching it to fit the experience you're trying to provide. The very few games that achieve this are so groundbreaking because they start with no design bias and built their foundations from the ground up. Demon's Souls is one such example, as are games like Thief: The Dark Project and the first Legend of Zelda. Each of these games have the designers on record describing a specific and personal real life experience that they wanted to adapt into a game, and I don't think it's a coincidence that each of these games fucking nailed the thematic framing of their respective mechanics, and are still unequaled in many of those ways. They are each a wholistic mechanical adaptation of a complete emotional picture, a picture that is based on the most necessary elements of a deep and nuanced real life experience.
This is a cool observation. I think part of the reason Breath of the Wild surprised me so much was my expectation that it would work more like a video game than reality.
This is why SH4 is a misunderstood masterpiece, it has no dissonance between gameplay, characters and story and world which equals chunkiness, unfairness and the core of survival horror difficulty and often frustration, it's like a mature cheese not everyone can appreciate it but those that do will see that it is actually team silents most artistic game
The worst thing that happened to these games, is the removal of any psychological elements to their gameplay. No fast travel in Dark Souls 1 was an inconvenience, but it was worth the tradeoff, because it furthered the immersion of the player. The world felt very dangerous, getting into a new, unfamiliar area was legitimately frightening. You are getting further and further away from home (Firelink Shrine). How are you going to go back? It is scary. This really forced you to map out the world in your head and use the environment as guidance as to where to go. Eventually you knew Lordran like the back of your hand. When you got back to Firelink Shrine after a big adventure in Blighttown or the Catacombs, it was an incredible sense of relief that simply cannot be replicated when there is fast travel. In the later games, especially in Dark Souls 3 just the abundance of bonfires completely destroys this sense of danger the world had before. In Demon's Souls the health reduction mechanic was not simply there to screw over the players. It was there to evoke a sense of dread and tension in the player. If you were in human form in the world, it was genuinely dangerous and nerve-wrecking. It really incentivized you to play carefully, because you were actually afraid to die, because death had serious consequences. (ruining the world tendency, making the game harder and harder, locking yourself out of Pure White Tendency items, questlines and more). In contrast Dark Souls 2 completely missed the point on this, and the hollowing mechanic is simply there to make the game harder because you lose some maximum health after death. Also all of that can just be solved by popping another Human Effigy which is way easier to come by than in Demon's Souls, and it didn't even solve the problem in Demon's Souls anyway, since World Tendency remained the same. All of this just comes down to the fact that the majority of gamers nowadays simply don't care about immersion. It is no coincidence that From Software is leaning towards this gameplay of roll and stab basic boss design, fast travel, no consequences for actions, barely any penalty for death anymore, checkpoints at every damn corner. It is successful for them. People nowadays only care about the mechanical aspects of games and not the psychological ones, I bet most people never even think about the latter. Any kind of hassle or inconvenience or interesting mechanic that is there to evoke certain "negative" emotions such as tension or dread, are deemed terrible hassles by the community. They just want to get to the next rollspam boss and get the next shiny loot. These games have simply turned into fight big boss 164 times experiences. It is a real shame. The lore is cryptic not to match the theme of mystery and danger the world encompasses, but simply for the sake of it. Same for the NPC's fates. From Software needs a hard reset. Elden Ring was a good game despite its big flaws, but the series is desperately stretching itself too far at this point. They need new ideas.
From Software clearly found their gold goose formula and are sticking too it, but that's not something you can really blame them for I suppose. When you haphazardly rehash ideas with new coats of paint and they only get more popular with each release there is very little reason to stop. As someone who loves open world games, one of my favorites being Morrowind, it irks me a bit when I read discussion about Elden Ring and people raving about how the open world design is "revolutionary" and "game changing" when it fails basic world building concepts present in a 20 year old game. Like you point about Dark Souls 1's lack of fast travel, Morrowind's fast travel is very limited. You can only fast travel through predetermined routes via terrestrial creatures called Silt Striders, Mages Guild teleportation, or boating services. The player had to learn how to navigate the island of Vvardenfell which added greatly to the immersion of the game. Caveats existed in the way of Intervention scrolls, but you had no real control to which shrine they sent you to. This and a plethora of other reasons including: fleshed out history, fleshed out racial culture in and outside Vvardenfell, numerous villages and cities with their own secrets to discover, and crazy lore is why Morrowind is still fondly discussed 20 years later. On the flip side, Elden Ring is another romp as the Chosen Undead through another Lordan to kill the big bad guy because someone else told you to do it while having no ability to interact with anything or anyone other than killing because it's a Dark Souls game. While some parts of the Lands Between are visually striking and very pretty, it still does not offer much outside of combat and is essentially one big arena rather than a 'world'. As someone whose been playing video games for a long time, on some level it irks me a little to see videos with millions of views calling From Software's rehashed ideas "revolutionary" and how they "changed everything". It genuinely feels as if games that came out before 2009 simply do not exist anymore. To make a point, 15 years ago today Ninja Gaiden 2 came out on the Xbox 360, easily one of the most difficult and brutal Stylish Action games ever released. However, an ARPG with incredibly sluggish, shallow, and barebones combat became the poster-child for difficulty in video games. That is the power of marketing combined with the reality of millions of new video game players coming into the 7th console generation. To Matt's point, why would I not just play something like Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, or Monster Hunter if From Software is going to continue to make bootleg action games? I don't think Melania was the hardest boss fight of 2022. She's difficult, yeah, but Rodin from Bayonetta 3 I found to be far more difficult. A large part due to Bayonetta 3 being a pure action game. There are no builds, there is no coop, and the fight itself has its own restrictions to increase the difficulty further like no healing items. The pace of the fight is also significantly faster and Rodin can and will kill you from full health in the blink of an eye if you aren't on top of your game. To me the Souls games have run their course, I don't think From Software is able to provide games like Demon's or Dark Souls 1 anymore whether it's due to running out of ideas or a shift in their philosophy. In my eyes, you'd never get something like Sif from modern From Software. If modern From Software made Dark Souls 1 Sif would mutate into some kind of horrific meat creature, grab all the swords on Artorias' grave, and start spinning at you like a helicopter to start phase two of the boss fight asking Artorias to forgive him. Even NPC questlines have become predictable to a point. It makes it difficult to form connections with characters when you know they're going to die anyway, what's the point? Solaire stuck with people due to Dark Souls still being unpredictable at the time, seeing a character you formed a bond with fall so far from what he once was had an impact. It's impossible to recreate Solaire today because you expect him to die, because NPCs largely always die because it's a Dark Souls game.
@@viewtiful1015 I completely agree, particularly in regards to the action gameplay. What I always loved about the first two Souls games was how they made you inexperienced and clumsy in the face of overwhelming odds. You had to observant and cautious, not hyper-skilled or completely familiar with the enemies' movesets. It's like Matt said, it places you in the position of a novice adventurer, and lets you experience the atmosphere from your character's eyes. No games have ever made me feel more like a Knight Errant looking for glory, a Novice Mage in search of knowledge, or a Devout Priest trying to make the world a better place than Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls, including much more in depth or story heavy RPG's. The very beginning of Elden Ring, skulking through the woods trying to ambush or sneak past enemies I was too weak to fight came close to replicating this, but I quickly encountered that feeling of 'big arenas' that you described. In the first two games (and Bloodborne, to a lesser extent) I felt as though the normal world was just outside the bounds of the game. Bolitaria was sensibly arrayed and encased by demon fog, the objective was to stop this spreading to the rest of the world. Of course villages and mills and ordinary life existed beyond, it was a logical conclusion. Lordran was less sensibly arrayed, but travelling on foot gave it a sense of scale, and the constant references to outside lands like Carim and Astora painted a picture of a huge fantasy realm, all of which was affected by the linking of the fire. Instead of the feeling like a decayed and dangerous pocket of a world which was receiving crusades and expeditions from far away lands, The Lands Between felt like a big Fortnite island entirely populated by zombies. Where was the normalcy, the background of my character? What could I hope for at the end of this adventure? It's hard to feel invested in a world populated by people who are 99% mad, and where the only sane ones have nebulous origins and are almost exclusively encountered in an external pocket dimension. It's a shame, From Software's games keep getting more impressive in scale, and more bland in flavour. I hate to criticise Elden Ring because it really does feel like an immense project, but I can't see much interesting in said project. The only thing I can help but think about From Software is "Oh well, they made two really great games.", and while it's a shame that it seems like we won't get that again, more than anything else I'm just glad that they were made in the first place.
@@viewtiful1015As much as I really enjoyed Elden Ring and all of their other Souls games, I agree that the formula has definitely reached it's limit. Miyazaki has talked about having other directors make their own games, so hopefully they'll start branching out to make some unique experiences like Demons Souls was back then. In my opinion, they were sort of going in that direction with Deracine and Sekiro and Miyazaki is directing another game that apparently doesn't fit with the usual Action RPG stuff that they do. Also considering they pivoted to Armored Core after the sheer success of Elden Ring, and it's being directed by Yamamura (lead combat designer for Sekiro), I'm pretty excited for whatever Fromsoft does in the future.
Lack of consequences in Elden Ring is one of the most jarring things. At one point you can join the Recusants, a group that is implacably opposed to the Erdtree and Roundtable Hold and whose mission is to assassinate tarnished. You would expect that this would cause a rift where the Roundtable hold would kick you out but in reality it doesn't matter at all and no one in the Roundtable Hold even acknowledges that you've done this. Another big choice is the Frenzied Flame, where accepting it will cause Melina to abandon you. Since Melina is necessary to burn the Erdtree this should force you to find an alternate path to getting past the Erdtree's thorns. Instead it's just the exact same path with you instead of Melina doing the burning. I'm not expecting CRPG levels of depth here but it would be nice if any of your choices made any difference at all.
This is exactly what happened to Assassin's Creed. AC1 was bold, experimental and had unique ideas that were not universally appealing. It's successor abandons some of those ideas and streamlines things while refining to a T. Game receives overwhelming success and acclaim, leading to a refusal to deviate from what is now the norm. AC2 is praised while AC1 is seen as outdated and an inferior older brother, rarely recognized for it's unique qualities that are still unlike a lot of games even today. It's just the matter of gaming now being dominated by a casual audience. Anything unconventional is immediately seen as bad and unmarketable. Triple A Games have to tick a certain amount of boxes or else they aren't even considered. For example, open world games must have fast travel or else it will be seen as a chore to play. The game must a ridiculous amount of content or else it will be accused of having an "empty world." (Look no further than Elden Ring's incessant amount of samey dungeons and boss arenas)
"The most reasonable line of thought is that the arrow will have a certain amount of travel-time, so if you change direction after you hear the shot you'll be safe. Wrong. The arrow magically curves in mid-air because this is no longer a series where you outsmart your opponent; it's a series where you press the roll button at the right time." A perfect thesis statement, reduced to three succinct sentences.
@@ehrtdaz7186 It's easy to see how that's a contrived solution, though, much like the curving arrows are a contrived means to make that section challenging.
@@ehrtdaz7186 You have to run through that area before you can talk to him. But even if you didn't have to, it wouldn't invalidate the point, which is that something that should work (feinting to throw off aim) doesn't actually work. IIRC though, even as far back as Dark Souls 1 there were physics-bending arrows, most notably the famous Anor Londo archers.
Jesus Christ this video is essentially prophetic given what Elden Ring has ended up as. From Software essentially make games that have more in common with Guitar Hero than Demon Souls at this point and that's such a shame
@@Lastninjaxoxoxoxox I actually don't hate this about Sekiro just for the fact that it's at least different. There's a lot I dislike about Sekiro, and the final boss alone was just hair-pulling enough to make me never replay the game, but I came away from every boss feeling like a boss myself. Of course, that doesn't really translate to Elden Ring, because the bosses have evolved (as they have continuously done with each Dark Souls) yet the player character's abilities have hardly changed.
@@lorangemagnifique3001 And that's fine if that's the type of bosses you prefer, it seems in the community a lot of ppl shares this notion which is why they want "learn the moveset" bosses and not so called "gimmick" bosses. But you can get the same feeling from a boss-rush game. Infact they might even have more fleshed out combat than the souls series and makes you feel like even more of a boss. I'd like to think the souls series went for something different, atleast in the beginning. Unfortunately I don't even share this feeling of feeling like a boss. When I beat "learn the moveset" boss #10 in a row (like there were so many of in ds3) I don't feel like a boss, I feel like I just wasted my time learning this AIs moveset with no other real experience to be had from this.
@@lorangemagnifique3001 tbf, sekiro is an *extremely* sastisfying system to learn and master and it's a different IP with a different approach. Elden Ring has literally no excuse since it's basically just Dark Souls.
This video has only became more relevant with Elden Ring, and more relevant again with the DLC. They’re still good games, but I’m sad at the direction they’ve gone in, and what’s been lost 😢
The DLC really made me stop in my tracks when I went up against that Rellana knight. She's actually one of the easier bosses in the DLC but I just couldnt muster up the motivation to learn another flurry of attack patterns. It's like whats the motivation to continue at this point? The story is a big random mesh of old fromsoft ideas with no clear connection or overall theme to tie it all together (le dragons, le aliens, le gods, le end of the world), the characters are more bland than ever before and are mostly just remakes of npcs youve seen already, the loot is a mess with that stupid crafting system like my inventory is so god damn full of stuff I will never ever use in my life. The art and animation are cream of the crop as ever but man I just feel like a geezer playing these new fromsoft games, I don't get it anymore. It's really just become a rhythm game for people who feel they're too fancy for osu
To be fair to Elden Ring, there are many things it does really well. But the base game bosses are amongst the its weakest aspects. However, while the DLC bosses might still be "memorize roll timing and hit back", at least they're better balanced.
Same. I really enjoy the other from games that use the same formula but in a different format (bloodborne, sekiro, AC6). The release of the DLC marks the last from game I'll ever buy, been a loyal customer since demons souls. I now can pirate them with a clean conscience.
Armors designed to appear on massive imposing bosses have no business being available for the player You're not as cool as Ornstein when you wear his set, you look like an ugly midget
Yeah I saw the first boss and her 15 hit combo and just sighed. I'll still play it, but I'm a little sad. Just like elden ring, it'll be good, but not great. Looking back over all these years, the high water marks of FromSoft have been Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Sekiro.
every fight is literally exactly the same. It sucks because the level design is still excellent and the art direction is unparalleled at this point, but if you've fought one Shadows of the Erdtree boss (or enemy for that matter), you've fought them all. People meme about the combat of ER because it's supposedly so hard (it's not, it's just tedious), but it's easily the worst part of the game.
@@tweeeeeex The level design is half the layout and half the enemy placement and design. Elden rings Mobs are total trash. The game and DLC suffers from an issue of "if you actually have to engage with mobs rather than steamroll them, you are too underpowered to beat the boss"
@@Frog_Cat_ If you keep buying them, they'll keep making them. Money is the only language these publishers and companies understand. Vote with your wallet. I'm not buying the DLC or another FromSoft game until they've shown they can branch out more. Sekiro was great but is now a dead end.
@@Frog_Cat_ You could always look even further back. There's a number of high water marks pre-Demon's Souls, though what precisely those are will vary by taste.
@@jonnyalec5646i changed my mind since I made this comment im actually cautiously optimistic about nigh reign this could be fromsoft chance to break out of the formula and to improve the combat and online on later games thanks to night reign. But i have 2 concerns. The main thing im concerned about is how streamlined nightreign might end up. they have revealed that there isn't any character stats building instead hero classes and that there isn't any fall damage. i hope that both of these mechanics have been removed for realy good reasons not to just streamline the game or too make things faster because of the battle royal storm. And that there isn't any more mechanics removed or streamlined for the game. The other concern is reusing content im fine with fromsoft reusing assets but reuseing too many enemies bosses and characters from previous games is gonna end being disappointing in my opinion. And i hope that some of the reused bosses and content are optional. Again I'm cautiously optimistic with night reign i hope that of the game turns out great that fromsoft carries it's improvements and lessons to the later games
The thing about improvements not being carried over game to game starts to make a lot more sense when you remember that all these games have had overlapping development cycles.
@@MikePatterson8831 Bandai-Namco has got to be a big part of the problem at this point. The games made under Sony and Activision publishing (Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro) are far more cohesive and consistent than the Bamco-published ones (Dark Souls 1/2/3 and Elden Ring).
i jsut miss being surprised. The most surprised i was with elden ring dlc was the shaman village. Becasue it was a chill empty village with a soft tune and had nothing in it outside a tree and one item. The contrast remain in my mind until the end of the game, nothing else did. that area might not be impressive in other FS games but in elden ring it was enough for make appreciate how different it was to the rest of the game. that Nothing left me more impressed than the rest of areas in the rest of the game.
In a game that’s so relentlessly focused on just shoving enemy encounter after enemy encounter down your throat, it was an insane breath of fresh air to just have this environmental set piece that’s completely divorced of any combat engagement whatsoever. Granted, they make you fight a copy pasted tree sentinel duo before you go up there, but the immediate vibe of the area almost drowns that out
What's crazy is that is what everyone has said. Shaman village gets brought up as the most impactful moment of every review I've seen. People aren't talking about the bosses they took 30 tries to master or the caatles they cleared, its the one moment they were presented with just a beautiful scene where they didn't have to fight anything
I was thoroughly surprised by its level design, Shadow Keep and that main region around it was mindblowing to explore just like DS1 was. But I agree with you, I wish this sense of surprise was also present in the rest of the game.
@@iago9711So Matthew is pretty much correct in making the point that the best part of these games is the experiential aspects/contrast with other elements and quite a lot of people seem to agree based on the fact that Shaman village is one of the most memorable parts of the dlc for many. Though, there are just as many people who think every moment to moment gameplay should be about simplistic combat and nothing more.
I'm enjoying the Elden Ring DLC, mostly for the exploration and lore, but I couldn't help but think of this video after the third spammy roll-catchy boss. In Dark Souls 3 I was already feeling fatigued by that style of boss, but at least there only 60% of the fight time was taken up by rolling. I felt they truly jumped the shark with the endgame of Elden Ring, where bosses like Maliketh would spam 15 attacks in a row that could two-shot you, and where the opening afterward felt barely long enough for a single heal. Well, if that was jumping the shark, the new DLC is double jumping it, and I haven't even attempted the final boss yet.
I couldn't agree more. It's frustrating for people to say "Souls has always been about hard bosses!" while failing to realize the other 90% of the game exists. I finished the DLC and was left with the same feeling, just completely boring and dull.
@@otomeplus I feel the frustrating thing is that Fromsoft can still clearly make really fun and engaging areas. Am yet to finish ER DLC but just went through the Abyssal Woods. Area was great. The developer notes foreshadowing the danger, finally seeing and the testing the limits of the watcher(?) enemies was all great. Then it finishes with another flashy but mechanically similar boss.
I return to this video with a new comment because with Elden Ring DLC this video still rings true, especially with the bosses. So many people right now as I post this are arguing about the difficulty of the DLC and its bosses. My main issue with the bosses more so is that it's more of the same old shit. I'm just not finding the "learn pattern, dodge at right second, deal with the bosses bullshit spamming of infinite stamina and two hit kills" engaging anymore. I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I beat them, I just feel like I pulled an annoying pain away from my body. I really hope whatever FromSoft does next is something new, something that will ignite that Demons Souls energy again with new ideas and just subverting expectations. However, due to Elden Ring being such a huge success, I sadly doubt they'll be willing to do it and just make another Soulslike and critics and people will give it more 10s. Because apparently now you can't say any criticism of these games anymore, when I remember a time when people would regularly shit on these games. But while I, along with many others saw what was special about them, it feels FromSoft might have forgotten. FromSoft excel at their art, level design and just core function as working as a team. But now it feels like they're kinda playing stuff safe and expected and I never thought that would really happen.
@@tweeeeeex We're left with a game that is aimed at pleasing a large audience and narrow minded fandom rather than take risks and doing something interesting/potentially alienating.
A Mathew quote went through my head all through the dlc “so many times it felt like the design team asked “how can we make this fight difficult” when what they should have asked is “how can we make this fight interesting””
@@brandonthomas6602 EXACTLY. This was also hitting me during the main game. That said, I really like Elden Ring, but I along with many others have played these games for 10+ years. Had time to reflect back and think on stuff. The people whos first one of these games was Elden Ring I feel are the most toxic and not willing to take any amount of criticism of their favorite Elden Ring.
They're afraid of alienating the "muh hardcore" fanbase they've attracted with the prepare to die marketing. Their biggest fear is people saying their games are too easy so they have to up the ante every single time.
Agree with so much of this after trying Elden Ring. I'm just not enjoying Fromsoft design anymore. Unfortunately for me, Fromsoft has continued with their enemy design of the last few games, and go for SPECTACLE and SPEED over everything else. There are obviously people who want that, who want constant action and to constantly be pushed to their mechanical limits. I like that SOMETIMES. I like variation. I like fights to feel contextually appropriate. Not every being in a world would like be a whirling dervish that never lets up. Maybe there's an older warrior that can do bursts of attacks but needs lots of time to rest. Maybe there's an animal that needs to be tricked into revealing a vulnerable spot. Maybe there's a wizard that you need to get behind by running through a series of buildings or rooms, so it's a test of your memory of the combat arena. Maybe the fight is more for an emotional response and not a test of mechanical skill. Maybe, just maybe, the overarching design goals for a boss don't have to be: will people die a bunch before winning? Was it constant adrenaline?
Good, it's not just me. Elden Ring has such a unique world to explore but it plays it so safe with the boss fights. I'm at the end of the game now, right before the final fight and I'm just sick of it. Almost every boss feels copy and pasted with a different skin and some actually are just that.
The problem is that Souls combat is basically solved, so any boss that isn't a twitch reaction test full of tricky timings is going to be laughably easy.
@@mattweber2512 Flamelurker, Fume Knight, Sir Alonne and Darklurker are still hard even if you know what they do so I disagree with that assessment. But if it is solved, then why not dramatically change how these games are played? Why not do what FF7R did and alter the combat?
@@theatheistbear3117 I agree, that's what they should do. I thought Sekiro was a step in this direction, but Elden Ring seems to have regressed back to the Souls mean.
This feeling more relevant nowadays in the discussion surrounding Elden Ring and Erdtree DLC, well is too poisoned by "git gud" and "Skill issue" to even have a conversation.
Why did such a disscusion came up in the first place you think? I don't think it's the problem of the players, especially if it wasn't that present in the past games (not in that scale) I think Elden Rings focus on absurd extreme fast bosses (while the framework is still basically Dark Souls) accompanied by the whiplash that a boss takes either 10+ hours to learn (last DLC boss as worst offender) or just 10 minutes because, the mimic tear will carry you, of course will create a gulf, where the player who "suffered" like in the past games won't feel respected by the game, feeling disappointed at players basically avoiding the premise of fighting at all but instead just cheese, but of course this was enabled by the game. So I see the problem that Miyazaki is no longer able to uphold that "shared experience" he once talked about because the spectrum of the experience varies in such absurd degrees, especially since there is such a half-hearted focus on dungeon-crawling, the only true roadblocks are bosses themselves..
Exactly this. There's a point in his Demon's Souls commentary where he calls DeS more a game of knowledge and tactics than mechanical skill. I just have to wonder where the ball was dropped along the way where now with SotE the expected way to play is "beat your head on the brick wall until you memorize every move"
@@zetsu8ou "I just have to wonder where the ball was dropped along the way" Like Matt said in his video, it all started with the Artorias of the Abyss DLC. Great DLC in its own right, but its bosses have become the copy/paste template for 90% of the bosses in every game after. Dark Souls 2 sealed the series' fate.
@@Ageleszly Miyazaki has been the reason why the later has less focus on interesting exploration where you can think outside of the box to solve a good way forward to more now game such as eldern are just turn up to eleven boss runs where your just dodging 100 percent of time. You cant use your environment to help you defeat the boss along with bosses don't have any interesting mechanics to show a weakness that you can use them again them in your favor. It literally learn the move set hope that bosses aggressive tracking does not screw you over by making the camera spaz out. I think the reason shadow of the erdtree got negative reception that it did because it show how much from soft has been relying on same boss design all this time and people in a passive way are starting to realize it.
This actually isn't very relevant today. The people who usually say "git gud" ("souls veterans") are a good chunk of people complaining about ER and the DLC. Most of the well poisoning now is coming from people saying ER and the DLC are 'too difficult' and thus are bad. Those same "souls veterans." You don't actually want a conversation. You want to complain and to say whatever game fromsoft creates these days is bad because it's new/different/hard/etc. More well poisoning. That's what it boils down to.
IMO there's still a lot of quirky and unique fights in the rest of the games, but it's obvious where the focus lies. Something like being able to knock down the Iron Golem off the arena, Duke's Dear Freia having two heads on each side as weak points, High Lord Wolnir being basically an advancing wall of death (which has a different death animation if you don't hit his weakpoints), and all the other quirks the bosses in Bloodborne have (like being able to stun Gascoigne with the music box, or The Which of Hemwick being basically powerless if you fight her with no insight). I do hope that Elden Ring bring some of that back. A good balance is always good.
@Mohito Non-alco Sekiro was a bland and boring game. The Levels were astonishingly easy because of the weak grunt enemies and the stealth + mobility systems at hand. The world was also extremely dull. I remember playing through the first part of the game, wondering when the interesting areas and varied enemies would come. Then when I got to the abandoned dungeon, I thought I would finally enter a new interesting location. However, this section was incredibly short and led to the Senpou Temble instead, another boring unvaried location. The bosses were hard, in the sense that you had to press buttons in a specific pattern. Matthewmatosis mentions in this video, if he wanted action, he would play a better action game, but at this point you might as well rather want to play Osu!. It also continued the trend mentioned in this video. If ER "will be very similar to Sekiro" it will be as disappointing as that game. I can't help it but have low expectations for Elden Ring, given that I doubt they will stop following the trend.
Here's a wonderful quote i found in regards to the DeS Remake and the overall modern view of videogame remakes: "This kind of flippant treatment of original works as if they’re just inherently “not good enough” for contemporary tastes just lends credence to the idea that video games are not art. If they’re this disposal and easily replaceable, they’re nothing but toys."
I do have one counter argument. The same can be said for any piece of art. Someone can "remaster" Starry Nights or make an animation look better with new frames or computer animation. Literally anything that has been made before can be remastered.
@@HonsHon this is painfully ignorant. Starry nights was made with clear and full understanding of the medium, any alterations would be one that the author did not want to or could not make. Same with animations. Akira for exemple, plays with frames per second to add emphasis and such. A 60 fps remaster would absolutely destroy the movie. Hell, rendering toy story at an extremely high resolution might show the inner working of shaders and textures to a point so severe it breaks immersion.
Eh, I dunno man. That quote makes sense when you think of art like paintings, writings, and music but that’s just because those pieces are usually expressions from one single person. It doesn’t make sense to “remake” the Mona Lisa because what good would that do? It would just be another person trying to copy a painting and would lead to a separate piece of art. When you switch to collaborative works like movies or games it becomes different, because of all the different facets that could fail to express the original intention in the way they wanted. Either way, you’re not destroying art by deciding to remake a movie or a game. The original art still exists, the remake is a separate piece of art expressing similar things but using the advances in technology and technique that came after.
I feel sorry for Demon's Souls. The game was dubbed a failure and had very low expectations from the developers while it was on project. And despite its surprising success, the game was heavily overshadowed by other PS3 titles during its time, and its successors in the later years. I have met and played with, many Souls fans who have not even heard of Demon's Souls, and only credit on its successors. To this day, I still wish FromSoft can shift their focus on the game that started it all.
It's world was just that much more magical, felt more tragic. Maybe it was because you entered the world right after tragedy and everything looked like Order had just recently fallen apart. In Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 it seems like the new way of the world has long been established. You arrive centuries after all the important stuff has happened, to the point that even the big bads have hollowed away. It feels more abandoned, but not in a good way. I guess the lack of changes from World Tendency also give that feeling.
For what it's worth I bought a PS3 to play Demon's Souls back in the day. For me it was the system seller. I was super stoked for Dark Souls when it came out after that, but even that isn't as good as the original I don't think.
To be fair, a lot of that can be blamed to the fact that Demon's Souls was a PS3 exclusive in a time where the PS3 was still playing catch up to the 360 and the PC was emerging again. Not only that but Sony was afraid to advertise it, sort of what they did to Gravity Rush this generation. And the cherry on top of the pie was that Dark Souls 1 released a year and half after so most people who heard a few positive things about Demon's Souls just went straight to the sequel instead, especially 360 and PC players for obvious reasons.
It was hardly dubbed a failure. When it was released it was getting high review scores in a lot of gaming magazines/websites, with a Metacritic of 88. Even IGN gave it a 9.4/10. It may not have taken off in the mainstream like dark souls, but it was critically acclaimed from the start,
And it's weirder still when Dark Souls kinda has a pitiful lack of difficulty. It's telling about a game's balance when before you start the game, everyone tells you which builds to avoid due to them trivialising and breaking the game. Deaths only get less and less meaningful too, as the more rapidly you die, the fewer souls you build up between deaths, lowering the incentive to avoid dying. As such, there's no real penalty to endlessly dying to work out a boss' attack patterns, memorising them outside of the boss room and then steamrolling them once you're there. The game's difficulty comes purely from how well you can rote learn a very basic rhythm, effectively.
It's the reason I prefer to make a clear distinction between "challenge" and "difficulty". To me, "challenge" is how much I have to understand the game's mechanics, the current situation, be observant, etc., while "difficulty" is just how mechanically hard something is; i.e. how narrow the window to press the roll button at the right time is and stuff like that. Souls games, especially the later ones, are pure difficulty with very little in the way of challenge.
my biggest issue with souls has always been the conversation surrounding it. I dislike that its considered "the hard series" when that really isnt the case. Souls games push discovery and the players actions to the forefront and make you feel like you are in its world more intensely than any other game series I've seen. With that sense of immersion comes a sense that you have to react to the world in a realistic and not half assed behavior. In short, I feel that you cant make a compelling souls experience without it being punishing, but that isnt what I think the games' biggest emphasis is.
@@matthewmuir8884 I find this seperation to be somewhat limiting with certain games. After reading your comment I was trying to think of games I played that fall into either category...one I was stuck with was Megaman games...are they more challenging or difficult? They (the bosses specifically) are notorious for having a set pattern you have to memorize to beat them...sounds kinda like dark souls, except sometimes they are pretty cheap...forcing you to analyse the nature of thier attack patterns and the guns you have before you memorize the exact attack pattern via muscle memory. So in a sense its a bit of both...but I guess that depends on where you draw the arbritrary line between "strategy" and "skill" since objectively strategy is just skill in slow motion. (People who perfer strategy games over skill tend to like taking their time to plan things out where as skill is usually the opposite.) This doesn't even take into account reacting to things...what if your reacting to things that you aren't used to? Then its adaptation? What if a boss was so well designed that it started to change its pattern the second you adapt? Is that more strategy or skill then? I suppose not being pertentious about your defenition and just looking at the general message your saying...I guess I can conclude (with the dark souls games anyways) that the problem is that the combat inofitself is not very complicated. This lack of complication prevents nuanced "challenge" as you put it so since its not improved upon you either rely on gimmicks or design the bosses with skill in mind. The solution would be to make the combat more in depth so that there's a more balanced mix. Maybe the souls games are just 3D megaman games in design philosophy now that I think about it...hmm...
So is the game a disappointment? I didn’t buy it because I really didn’t want another medieval fantasy game from FromSoft anyways. I was very satisfied with that ending with Dark Souls 3 six years ago.
@@SaberRexZealot Someone else on here said "peak 6/10" and I'm inclined to agree. It's probably better than a lot of games in its genre, but I fucking hate open-world games and it was NOT able to overcome that for me, so yeah. Haven't been this disappointed by a game since Xenoblade Chronicles X. I think if I'd waited til the game was on sale for like half off and we'd gotten past the point where the entire internet was gushing about it simultaneously, I wouldn't feel nearly as bad about my purchase. I also think that if it were back at the start of the pandemic, where I didn't have a job, unemployment was good, and I had absolutely no social obligations or artistic aspirations, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to keep my hands occupied while I watched youtube videos on a separate monitor. I've spent a lot of time doing just that with other, worse games (MGSV and FFXV come to mind). But I also don't really remember my experience with those games fondly, and it's sad to think of FromSoft making a "podcast game" as opposed to something that actually engaged me.
@@SaberRexZealot It's pretty much what everyone expected, Dark Souls 3 but open world. It's not bad by any means but I am kind of baffled by the immense praise it's getting. It's like... come on guys, we all played this game years ago. Back then the areas were connected by a hub world or in a sort of Metroidvania style rather than by big open fields, but otherwise it's the same thing.
@@SaberRexZealot you were listening to the video, right? it's basically the same old and more of it, as well as, a "roll at the right time to win" simulator. This would be fine by me, but where I think FromSoftware dropped the ball is on Matthew's criticism of the combat forgetting the improvements of the past, like, locking Rallying behind a great rune, or forgetting that Trick weapons ever existed, or magic still being very much a glass cannon build, ranged and defensive builds being very limited compared to melee combat, or other stuff like this, as well as the combat needing to grow and evolve with the times, instead of remaining largely the same as it was in 2009, with only something as simple as a weapon art added in that really wasn't even that good or utilized that well. This is an especially big problem because of them trying to reach more challenging aspects and the way this game formula is going, it's heading straight into a wall, they're going to eventually reach a breaking point because that difficulty has a limit and that limit is called the human limit, ie, what most humans are theoretically capable of.
After having watched your entire Legend of Zelda review series, your critique of Dark Souls 2, and now this, you are my absolute favorite reviewer on youtube. Not only does it feel like your reviews touch on every single important element in the game, but you always manage to touch on things ive forgotten about, or made me rethink something I didn't realize was so important to me. Also, sometimes, I didn't have the same negative/positive outlook on something you did, but I can ALWAYS understand where your coming from thanks to well implemented evidence and/or footage. Finally, your way of stating or emphasizing certain points is remarkable. The best example I can give is your phrase towards the end of this video, "enjoyed by everyone, but loved by no one." Such a concise and eloquent way to sum of the potential negative side of mass appeal.
DS3 (and dare I say BB) is when the series went on a completely different direction. Playing DeS and then DS3 feels like they've been developed with completely different philosophies despite having the same "Souls" moniker.
The lack of warping in Dark Souls 1 can seem tedious and inconvenient, but it makes for memorable situations. When I went for the platinum trophy I got to Anor Londor in new game plus only to realize I didn't kindle any of the bonfires up to 20 in the previous run. So I had to go backwards through Sen's Fortress to go kill Pinwheel. It also made Homeward Bones more impactful. I would purposefully avoid resting at bonfires so I could warp back to Firelink when I achieved certain goals, like defeating Sif or ringing the Blighttown bell. When I made it to new game Plus 2 I needed to get the Sunlight Medals from Anor Londo for the sunbro covenant. I opted to not use any bonfires after resting at Parish so I could Bone back with the Medals. It made the rafters in Anor Londo some of the most stressful moments in gaming I've ever had. Yes I did fall from them once and had to do Sen's fortress again.
yes, I feel like I know the map of DS1 like the back of my hand, but not as much in the later games because i feel exploration was punished more lightly with the greater amount of bonfires and instant fast travel
Demon's souls bosses work so well because they seem to be designed concept first. Probably as a result of it being the first game in a new series where they weren't always sure what the final gameplay could be like. You can reduce almost every boss down to an abstraction of what it's like to fight them and you find that concept works almost anywhere. This a list of demons souls boss concepts, but imagine I'm describing a D&D encounter or even a scene from a movie instead of a video game. >a blind giant that needs to use sound to find the hero >a large creature protected by a swarm of smaller versions of itself, with the twist being that the big one is actually helpless on it's own >a flying creature that takes almost fighter jet like strafing runs at the hero >a 25 foot tall suit of armor held together by magic essence which can be made to leak out of the suit by opening up the armor in it's thinnest areas Notice how almost every boss in demon's can be beaten, in a wholly practical sense without rolling. Demon's can be beaten by a normal player without using a single invincibility frame. Compare that to so many later bosses that do some big string of attacks only when you're close enough that you can't just run out of the way, and worse yet the only thing that makes them unique from the last guy is what that string looks like.
Yeah it feels like there's a samey element to a lot of boss fights in later games. There are no clever tricks or unique strategies for beating a lot of those bosses in the newer games. It does seem like some of the bosses in Demon's Souls were designed with more of a D & D mindset.
@@asiamatron If you are talking Old School D&D, then yes. It’s funny because the Souls series has pretty much turned into what D&D is now. Elden Ring is basically 5e at this point. There is no real strategy to it.
@@asiamatron It’s funny that both franchises went into the same route. They kept the same basics but didn’t equate that the game they were making was completely different.
So many people missing the point of the video. Try reading the description. "Some thoughts on the merits of Demon's Souls." He is NOT saying that Demon Souls is the best entry, he is explaining it's merits, while showing some of the other games' faults.
He is wrong about somethings like defensive mechanics not being used in boss fights outside of roll. Yes it can be true about dark souls 2 and up but not 1. High poise, shields, parrying are great ways to fight bosses alongside roll. I have a better chance against o n s with shield and high poise than rolling the whole time cause I rarely get a hit in that way and gwen I parry the life out of em.
Matt was once asked on Twitter whether he's aware of any game other than Demon's Souls that excels at "outsmarting your opponent", being "mechanically unpredictable", etc. His answer was Rain World. I second this recommendation. Rain World not only scratches the same itch as DeS, it manages to raise the bar far beyond what any FromSoftware game has reached. In many ways, Rain World is the anti-Elden Ring that many people in the comments crave. I also highly recommend the Downpour expansion, which masterfully manages to avoid the separateness that plagues countless DLCs (e.g. every Souls expansion), and instead feels like it was always a part of Rain World. For those who aren't sold on Rain World, Mr. Matosis himself made a video about it that summarizes the appeal without revealing too much. Meanwhile, adventurous players should dive in as blind as possible. Just be sure to pick the Survivor instead of the Monk, and avoid the console versions for now.
@@jamesbradley9073 As of this comment, the console ports are in a less than stable state. When Rain World v1.9 was initially released on consoles, the update clearly wasn't ready yet. Old save files didn't get carried over to the new version, most sound effects didn't work properly, crashes were common, and a ton of other nasty bugs were introduced. And that's just the base game; the Downpour expansion which released alongside v1.9 was even more unstable. Heck, Expedition Mode's progression system straight up did not work at all, rendering much of the mode unplayable. Since then, there's been additional patches that significantly improved the state Rain World on consoles, fixing (or partially fixing) most of the above issues, but the current version (v1.9.13?) still isn't very good. The PlayStation versions specifically have some kind of save corruption issue, though a workaround was added in the form of automatic save data backup/restoration. Unlike Downpour, the next (and probably final) Rain World expansion, The Watcher, seems like it'll be released on all platforms at launch, so there's definitely going to be an update by then that hopefully fixes the remaining problems that plague the console ports. Until then, I strongly recommend playing Rain World on PC if possible; it's very stable as of v1.9.15.3. However, since you already have the PS5 version, you might as well stick with that if you ever decide to return to Rain World, or perhaps get the PC version during a sale (it's 55% off on GOG right now). Anyway, in my experience, it took multiple attempts to get into Rain World, though a big part of that was me getting distracted by other things. I made it near the end of the game's first act (1/3) during my first two attempts, only for my third attempt to truly pull me into Rain World from beginning to end. In particular, after I got through a pretty intense section around the start of the second act, I thought "Man, this game is gonna be a favorite for sure", and I was right. While I can't guarantee you'll have a similar experience, I think you should give Rain World another chance or two.
@@MetricGuard thanks for the detailed response! I will def give another go at some point. Will perhaps wait for this 3rd upcoming dlc before heading back in
As I was fighting Promised Consort Radahn in his second phase and watched as he teleported around and spammed obnoxious anime style attacks that shoot light beams everywhere which tank the framerate of the game this video once again popped into my head. You really called it Matthew.
>he teleported around and spammed obnoxious anime style attacks that shoot light beams everywhere and the best way to avoid this is just....rolling. Its boring, Fromsoft's boss design has been all flash since DS3. They successfully fooled people on thinking their boss design is great because of the art direction, visual flair and flashiness on screen but beneath the surface, the only mechanic you can engage with these bosses is either roll, block, parry then stagger but that's mostly the fault of the game's simplistic combat.
Not just rolling but also jumping! Hey remember jumping, the mechanic that you forgot about when fighting speedy bosses just like how you forgot about backsteps. Both jumping and backsteps had no use in the base game and not even in the previous games but now in this expansion 2 years later they remembered that they exist and didnt bother to teach the player how and when to use it, thanks Fromsoft!
@@JohnKasarinlan Those are actually best avoided by sprinting to one side. They've really upped the ante on this one and have attacks that you dodge by moving instead of hitting circle. There's also an AoE attack that you counter by running out of it instead of rolling. #maximaldepth
@@JohnKasarinlanIf it’s sooo boring why do you buy the game? It’s a very punishing timing simulator that a lot of people enjoy at the end of the day, if you don’t enjoy it then don’t buy it.
This video affirmed a lot of my gripes with Shadow of the Erdtree, my biggest being the bosses. Ever since DS3, it feels like Fromsoft have been continually ramping up the ridiculousness of the bosses to the point of it being completely unfun and unintuitive. So many bosses and enemies are completely overtuned and difficult for the sake of the concept. It doesn't matter how many Scadutree Blessings you give the player, the *design* of the enemies and what they do is specifically meant to feel broken. The worst part about the Souls games and its community is the fact that you can't have a genuine discussion on topics like boss and enemy design and difficulty without all of your thoughts and opinions being completely written off as a "skill issue." If we love something we have to be able to criticize it, it's completely ridiculous to not hold Fromsoft accountable for its poor design, but instead blame the player for not being submissive and willing to bash their heads against poor design for the sake of it.
The worst part of the current boss design is having to set your own difficulty. Even Malenia and the absurd DLC bosses are destroyed within minutes by the big cheese. On the other hand playing without magic, summons, and ashes of war puts you in for a 2-3 hour MINIMUM time investment to learn these bosses. Nothing makes a game less immersive and less fun that having to constantly ask yourself if the difficulty you are currently experiencing is the intended amount, or if you need to leave and come back. In the older Dark Souls titles it was super easy to just play the game without worrying about levels and upgrades, you would gather them at the appropriate pace by just playing the game.
@@typicalamerican2164 On top of that, some of the cheese, like mimic tear, cast so slow that bosses like the consort can two shot you before you get it off. People that are trying to play on easy mode will end up dying a bunch just trying to get the item off, then when they do it's an easy win. The mechanics just feel like a jumbled mess all round.
Demon's Souls boss fights have the creativity of a good Zelda boss, in a game with genuinely dangerous levels leading up to them. It's a big damn shame the series steered toward throwing nothing but fast-paced blenders at the player.
What? No. Zelda wishes it had bosses as creative and unique as Demon's Souls. Are you for real? 90% of Zelda bosses are about shooting a big monster in the eye.
I personally think that the less gimmicky bosses fit the soulsborne franchise better. Demon's Souls bosses to me are always either decent challenges or MASSIVE pushovers (cough leechmonger cough adjudicator) But instead of getting one or the other type of boss design, I think From should try to balance it out. Get a few good bosses testing your dodging, stamina management, and healing, then throw in a well designed gimmick boss to mix it up.
@@matthewmuir8884 how is that not true? Shooting a big monster in the eye is code for the dungeon item being the key for every boss. It's obviously uninteresting and everyone knows it but they've never changed it
@@kie2 What wasn't true was the claim that anywhere close to 90% of the bosses operate that way; when it does appear, it's usually for the tutorial boss and only the tutorial boss.
- Enter foggate (There is no lore reason to have a foggate as it only made sense in DeS with the great slumbering one but hey Lé Formula) - Look at moveset, die or win - Repeat That's now what Fromsoftware is.
You forgot the part where they lazily recycle the lore from Demon's Souls for, quite literally, every single subsequent game in the series. (Fantasy kingdom that is falling apart and long past its glory days, old malevolent gods/beings clinging to power who you must challenge.) I even really enjoyed Sekiro, but they by and large even recycled it there, just in a Sengoku Era Japan setting.
I'm surprised it took me this long to watch this video, but I have felt the same since Dark Souls 3. I was an early adopter of Demons and Dark Souls, and the whole memorizing attack patterns, roll dodging combos thing was not really a big part of the game for me. It's moreso just the way the combat was slower, and intentional, unlike most action games you aren't glued to your target, you didn't have a top-down camera, button mashing was punished heavily and positioning mattered way more than precise timing. Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring are great games, especially Elden Ring is one of my all time favourites for its exploration, environmental design, weapon and spell variety, and refinement of previous Souls systems. But all the ways the combat has changed in the Souls franchise make it feel now like the games that it was originally distancing itself from. It feels really sad for me because I also love the old turn based Final Fantasy but that series is now an action game. That series was always loved but always had its detractors who didn't quite "get" why not every game can be a button masher.
In so many ways, not only is the video relevant to newly released Elden Ring on the front of the whole "shonen anime" and "this is a game where you press the dodge button at the right time", but it's even worse than Dark Souls 3 in the latter half of it, and even then arguably before that, too. Because now, not only do enemies have these same problems from Dark Souls 2 and 3 (excessive tracking from DaS2 and cutscene attacks you have to dodge constantly before getting one strike such as DaS3), but they're escalated. You're quotable line, "this is the part where people would start listing off all the attacks you can do" which remains hilariously on point even moreso for Elden Ring, applies more than ever from the defenders of the late-game laziness. Not only did Elden Ring add more moves, but most of them are more useless than ever before, because enemies are back with more poise, faster attacks speeds that some dodges literally can't even evade (but still eat through shields, too), but also have excessive tracking, semi-random retaliation moves that sometimes even animation cancel, massive AOE, and monstrous damage. So we're staring at a HUGE number of boss fights that all play the same with slightly different timings, with a bunch of game mechanics that don't even work because if you're not dodging most of the fight you're dead, then you MIGHT be able to get ONE swing in (especially on slower weapons) before having to resorting back to mass-rolling. So all those game mechanics? Down the toilet for a lot of major boss fights. And everyone keeps bringing the posture breaking up... which is hilarious because some of the smallest weapons break posture easier than the heavier ones despite them being claimed, even in the damn game itself, to be MUCH better at dealing posture damage... except you get safe hits so infrequently on bosses that you MIGHT get one posture break, if you're lucky. And even the longsword style weapons (been the best default choice since DaS3, sadly, just because of how combat works now) good luck using even half of your combos or special moves. They take too long and you MIGHT get a long enough window to recover or they might just animation cancel and smack you before the game even allows you to input another action. So prepare to grind like fucking crazy. Because now, with Elden Ring, this isn't even a game where you press dodge at the right time... it's now a game where you bust out max damage and max hp or the boss busts on you and you die, particularly late-game. Shit literally reminds me of some goofy ass MMO tropes.
one of the things I rarely see people bring up is the lack of tank builds allowed in Souls games beyond Dark Souls 1. I loved wielding a giant hammer with a hulking suit of armor, you aren't mobile while doing it, so you take lots of damage, but the amount you take is severely reduced which allows you to be very aggressive, albeit very slow as well. this is practically impossible in the future games, especially ER, good luck using a giant strength weapon against most any boss without having to intermittently spam rolls away from their massive attack chains or god forbid try and tank through them with heals. now you HAVE to be super mobile and you HAVE to be doing insane damage, every build must be a glass cannon if you don't want to spend 10 minutes or more on just one of these horrendously boring bosses.
Desmond Brown It's comical how fanboys constantly bring up the posture breaking as a justification that Elden Ring's bosses are COMPLETELY different from Dark Souls 3's bosses, when really both game's bosses are two sides of the same coin. On my RL1 NG+7 playthrough, I tried using charged R2s and jumping R2s to break the bosses' poise, but the poise numbers on NG+7 are so absurdly high that poise breaks rarely happened, if at all.. At that point, the bosses were literally just Dark Souls 3 bosses with even less downtime and even more blatant input reading, as if Dark Souls 3 wasn't already guilty with that stuff. The only bosses I managed to poise break on NG+7 were Margit and Godrick, and that's only because those bosses had opportunities just long enough for me to get in charged R2s and jumping R2s. The issue with Elden Ring's bosses is that even though poise breaking does allow them to be approached somewhat differently to Dark Souls 3's bosses, it still has the same issue of bosses feeling same-y and homogenised. The only difference is that instead of every boss being about pressing the roll button at the right time, it's now that every boss is about piling on poise damage and hoping to Gwyn that you get a poise break, due to the baffling omission of a poise bar...
7:47 After beating SOTD, this hit hard. Elden Ring has numerous cool spells and ashes of war with long start-up time, but the bosses especially on the DLC has short chance of attack for player, and that makes them impractical to use without spirit ashes, and the result is that many player simply resort on more conservative attacks. What's the point of having them, if they are overkill to use on mobs, and unusable on bosses? I feel like Fromsoftware prioritized difficulty above anything else, even if that meant sacrificing the fun. Such a shame.
after finishing Elden Ring's DLC I can honestly say that I'm done with rollslop, watching a knight casually roll through a literal god's 10-hit combo with lasers and explosions and everything is just downright silly, I'm not having any more of this stupid shit.
I just got to play Demon's Souls for the first time and it's a real shame people don't give it the credit it deserves. It's just as good as Dark Souls and in a few ways even better.
The real shame is that it is so unaccessible being locked behind Ps3 while DS has gotten a remake that it didn't need, since it still was easily available on steam, (and with a fanmade patch that solved it's problems) and even worse ds2 got one that nobody asked for just a fucking year after it's release. I didn't have a Ps3 back then, had the 360, so sadly I can't give it the credit it probably deserves because I haven't had the opportunity to fucking play, even though it's been on the top of my list for a long time now. It seems that even From doesn't give it the credit it deserves, and it's kinda disgusting.
I always loved the world much more than Dark Souls. My only gripe is that it's too short. Once you are through your first time, it will never be the same again running the game. :( Also I really want them to finish the 6th archstone. The props they already made for it and the enemies are fucking amazing.
I disagree, and I ultimately would rank it among the lower entries. It pains me to think this way, but I actually do agree with the consensus of it being a "Dark Souls Prototype" of sorts.
@@craylik5589 To be fair it's not FromSoft's decision how Demon's Souls is appreciated. Sony owns the IP. The PS5 remake was completely Sony's decision, with no input from FromSoftware.
Elden Ring still suffers from many of these problems. The addition of the jump button, the reintroduction of powerstancing, the way that many ashes of war are designed to integrate into combo attacks, it's great to see. I think that the customizable flask also adds a lot of potential to the formula. But it's a shame that they somehow managed to make the multiplayer experience worse. It feels like the original intent was for Rune Arcs to work exactly like Embers in DS3, and tying multiplayer to the use of finger remedies instead was a late in development change. It is so frustrating that the reward system for multiplayer content makes so much more sense if rune arcs were equivalent to Embers. You could imagine an improvement, even, where the player would only be able to activate a rune arc and thus enable multiplayer from the safety of the roundtable hold. The ability to teleport anywhere most of the time continues to serve as a crutch for the level design. The copypasted catacombs and frequent enemy re-use is disappointing, but I think that dungeons like the teleporter dungeon and the leyndell catacombs ONLY work as well as they do because of the repetitive and predictable nature of those types of dungeon throughout the game. And it's a strange situation. There was ample opportunity to experiment with the abundant optional content in the game, but only a small handful even attempt anything novel. Horseback combat is a potentially interesting addition but I can't recall a single encounter in the game that seemed to be designed to be fought that way. You absolutely can fight a number of bosses on horseback, and occasionally it's true that hopping on torrent is a convenient way to avoid a particular attack, but you could remove torrent completely and the only way in which you would maybe suffer from his absence in combat is the lack of a double jump for hopping over dragon breath.
I think the very first encounter with the dragon on the lake is the perfect use case of the horseback combat. The Dragon gets to do dragon things like fly around and you get to follow/avoid him at a similar pace thanks to Torrent. Unfortunately From Soft somehow thought it was a good idea to not let you use Torrent in a fight with Elden Beast, a creature that is big, moves around a lot and has huge AOEs.
@@BinaryDood And you could still say that Kings Field 2 is the "origin" of the "Souls series" as many ideas that ended up in Demon's Souls and subsequently other "souls games" came from Kings Field II or at least were likely inspired by it.
@@sirexilon49 really stretching the meaning of "series" there. But I see your point. Thought I can't call Symphony of the Night part of the Metroid Series because it uses the same map. Or Bioshock apart of the System Shock series because it uses the same... everything. Really, series has less to do with the contents and more to do with the perception.
@@sirexilon49 and then there is the inspiration of the king's field series itself called ultima underworld the stygian abyss which received a psx remake in japan... edit: As for symphony itself it's gameplay is a remake of Simon's Quest and the original Vampire Killer for MSX
Matthew was the greatest game reviewer that TH-cam ever had. Why? Because I think he never made a video just to please his fans, or to put a NordVPN ad in between, or to make the recommend algorithms happy. An Irish with the most dry sense of humor, and the purest heart of a gamer.
I keep searching for another critic to take up the mantle and achieve the same level of quality analysis. Some can match him in one aspect or another, but nobody can make such insightful observations with such tight pacing with such consistency with so much humor. I’m sad to report he’s a singular talent. We won’t see his like again.
@@siphillis I agree. Matthew obviously has talent and he didn't overstay his welcome. This video was exceptionally well made and nothing more can be said about Souls games, to be honest.
@Lightstream He decided to not make his old-schooled analysis/critique videos anymore(maybe Bayonetta because dude is a Kamiya fanboy but I doubt he can pure platinum that game lol) He hates to repeat himself and in his last meta video you could tell he was done with video essays. He is also making his own video games now. Check out his Matthewmatosis Extra channel if you are interested. He streams occasionally on TH-cam. In a sense, we can all consider ourselves graduating from the Matthewmatosis academy. You no longer need Matthew to tell you how to think about a game since everyone has his own frame of reference as he said in his (former) last video.
17 hours and 2 major bosses into Elden Ring thus far, and I can't stop thinking about this video. You were always my favorite youtube video essayist and my favorite games critic period, but it's shocking how you've managed to predict just about everything I can't stand about the game. Everyone I know is having the time of their lives, but I can't get over the fact that they've copied and pasted the Firelink Shrine theme across the entire overworld. I can't get over the fact that magic is still separated into the three genders of Fire, Holy, and Blue. I can't get over the fact that every boss thus far has been a roll and punish skill check, how every cave has been an Oblivion-tier gauntlet of goblins with a throwaway miniboss at the end, and how even the opening cutscene felt like a cover of Dark Souls'. I genuinely hope the game improves for me, but so far, even at its best, it's been Dark Souls 3, complete with every single issue pointed out in this video made half a decade before the game's release. It's fitting that FromSoft has become obsessed with games about once-great and mysterious lands trapped in a cycle of death and rebirth, decay and stagnation.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m so disappointed with ER. It’s just dark souls 3 with a bit of running around in between the same bosses we’ve had since artorius.
@@aldecotan I wouldn't say NOTHING's been improved, but it REALLY does feel like a soft reboot of Dark Souls in a more commercially safe genre. The new parts are boring and the good parts are old. It's still better than a lot of other games, but for me at least, it's a disappointment. Dark Souls 3 was explicitly about moving on from endlessly repeating cycles of stagnation and decay, and yet FromSoft decided to go ahead and link the first flame again.
@@GreavesEc as someone who really disliked ds3 because of the linearity and over abundance of simple action bosses, I've enjoyed Elden Ring a lot and have found a lot of the bosses, though not all, to be at least less of a roll fest and simply more straightforward. there are apparently some puzzle like bosses as well. And it's not a bootleg bloodborne like 3 so I'm more than satisfied lol i think it's to just let ER be it's own thing. We have Demons Souls and the remake, it would do FROM no use to just repeat that exact formula for a new game.
Just wanted to say I really like the point you make about how later games in the series have become closer to action games, and therefor feel weaker since it becomes natural to compare them to more fully fleshed out action games. This is something I've thought about Fallout 4 for a while. So many people say that Fallout 4 improves on the combat at least, despite its many regressions from what games earlier in the series do. But to me that's not good enough. The closer it get's to feeling like a typical first person shooter and strips away the RPG elements that made the series in the first place, the more sense it makes to stop comparing it to RPG's and start comparing it to properly made first person shooters. And in that case it fails spectacularly by having very watered down and basic FPS mechanics compared to so many games in that genre.
You make a good point and Joseph Anderson talks about this in his TH-cam critique on Fallout 4 ( the second video he did on the game). When Fallout 4 focuses more on the action it will be compared to other games which focus on action. It will look quite watered down by comparison. The funny thing about Bethesda's Fallout is it seems incapable of doing both: it either has decent combat but crap RPG mechanics or decent RPG mechanics and crap combat. Even when it has decent combat that combat still pales in comparison to other action games. Matthew's point about how other action RPGs do the same thing is valid.
@@asiamatron Joseph Anderson is a complete tool but he brings up a lot of good points at times. I really enjoyed his DS2 videos, though I am even more positive than he is on the game, which was still very positive.
@@shrouls Because he doesn’t take criticism very well when people point out that he uses subjective and objective statements interchangeably (for example calling *SOMA* not a horror game, or saying horror games “aren’t scary”), and when confronted about it he made an entire video doubling down on “subjectivity being implied,” and generally misconstruing the arguments people were making.
@@theatheistbear3117 this is not enough to call him a "complete tool". His videos are subjective, same for matthewmatosis and every critic whether they admit to it or not. I do not see the issue with this and outside of his horror games don't scare me video his work is on par with the best on this site
I'm glad someone's finally criticizing the combat of these games. Its always been satisfying but it has no depth. It seems like the Souls community is constantly praising the combat when it amounts to as little as holding L1 and occasionally pressing R1 and O to attack or dodge an AOE. The level design, atmosphere, and npcs were always what drove me to the games.
I think that the enemies and bosses made this combat fun; If I think back to my favourite bosses in the series, all I did was dodging and light attacking, but I still love them, because their design compliments this simple combat system, by them doing the complex things
@@gottdashochstewesen4902 fully agreed. he says he could just play a better action rpg but outside of monster hunter i cant think of a game that isn't a soulslike which has the sort of boss quality bloodborne ds3 and elden ring have and even if they do the player also feels more overpowered.
The lack of depth is what makes it great imo. I don't need 100+ different moves and combos for a combat system to be fun, the simplicity is what makes is engaging.
I think the best thing for the series is to just abandon invincibility frames altogether. It's a silly mechanic to begin with, but it has singlehandedly poisoned the series' enemy design more than any other. Maybe if you are hit while dodging you can take 50% reduced damage, but enough of armored knights rolling through laser beams like a ninja silliness.
Actually interesting take and I agree overall. But I think the older games prove that i-frames aren't really the issue. Instead it's the focus on action, especially boss fights. Those older games had silly movement, but it was slow and methodical, so the games themselves didn't feel silly. The challenges were mostly about patience, attentiveness and experimentation, rather than fast reaction times. I love the new formula too, but I miss the more somber older games.
@@franciscofarias6385 Yes, I completely agree. But the new action-oriented Souls games sell very well so I doubt they will stop that trend. About all you can do is attempt treat the symptoms and at least make the action somewhat novel and interesting again. Of course the best answer is to go back to series' roots and encourage cautious exploration with creative bosses, but I doubt FromSoft/Namco will ever do that.
I do genuinely really really like DS3, BB, and Elden ring, but this video was very prophetic. People on twitter saw the one part about respecs, which to be fair I do agree is a weak point but I do see where he's coming from, more weight to your decisions and a more grounded experience and such, even if I personally like being able to respec and try different weapons and stuff. And assumed it was the whole video when that's just wrong. I do genuinely enjoy the roll bosses because to me learning all the timings, the ideal directions to roll, jump, best way to sneak hits in between attacks, etc, genuinely entertaining and I find it unique and fun enough to not be a big issue and since I find the combat enjoyable I don't bother leashing enemies but I totally understand the people who want bosses from Demon souls to make a return. From what I've seen the new ER DLC seems to have pushed this formula to the absolute extreme in a game that was already criticized by many to be the result of stagnation, so I do hope From goes in a new direction going forward and either expands on the simple system we have now, or get an entirely new one. I'm not trying to argue that the games are deep, they aren't, they're simple but they also feel really good to play, even if the weapons all basically serve the same purpose, watching the animations play out, learning which ones are slower or quicker or allow you to weave between attacks and get a few hits in, the weapon skills, all make them feel different and cool enough to want to use them, especially in BB. So yeah, even if I think games like ER, BB, and DS3 are great, I totally understand where Matt and the people in this comment section are coming from, and this video has made me have a new appreciation for fights like Micolash or Rom. I just wish people could come to the same conclusion instead of just insisting people need to git gud. It's fine to like something that's flawed or simple, and it's fine for people to want something that isn't simple, just enjoy the ride and have a good time. Also ER should have been way harder on the whole consequences thing, Bell bearings are dumb and while I understand not being able to kill some NPCs in the roundtable, I just wish they actually reacted to you being a better or worse person, it just makes them feel static even if they aren't bad characters by any means, it's not what you want in a game like ER where exploration and branching paths is a big selling point.
I think the most crucial point of DS1 was the disability to warp from the beginning. If you were stuck in one area the only way out of it was to press onward, or awkwardly fight ones way back. I remember being stuck in blighttown and it was scary, because at the time there was no going back for me. I think Elden Rings exploration would actually have been meaningful if you couldn´t teleport through the entire map all the time. Especially the teleportation traps would have gained a lot by that. Other than a cheap "gotcha, heres a visual spoiler for you" it would have been terrifying to fight ones way out of Caelid for example after being tpd there... I do like the ER endgame bosses though, they´re mechanically fitting (being demigods and all), but I really hope from will do something else by now. Since Bloodborne all the games feel like more of the same, with slight variation but having different visuals each time :/
For the first few hours of the game, I didn't realise that you could fast travel- so when I got caught in the teleportation trap to Caelid, I had to find my way back to Limgrave through an area for which I was massively underlevelled. It may have been a mindboggling show of obliviousness/stupidity on my part, but it gave me a sense of adventure and danger (like that of earlier Fromsoft titles) that was woefully absent once I discovered fast travel. Because of that, it was probably the highlight of the game for me. Fast travel is truly a detriment to this game. Elden Ring has a huge and beautifully crafted world, but you can never appreciate the scale and diversity of it because, once you've trotted around for long enough, every location in the game is two button-presses away. It completely triviliases the aesthetic experience, and you have less incentive to fully explore areas before moving on because you can just teleport back there whenever you want; but that's only the least of it. Along with the ridiculous frequency of Sites of Grace, you never have to make plans or consider how you're going to get somewhere, as, besides the generic dungeons where fast travel is disabled, there is no risk and no consequence to pushing through an unknown area: as long as you're not in combat, you don't have to worry about how you're getting back. Even dropping runes is far less nerve-wracking than earlier titles. And since the stakes are always so low, that wonderful feeling of relief once you get to a safe area (which, as far as I'm concerned, was the best part of Dark Souls) is practically non-existent. The worst part is that I'm not sure there's any quick, moddable solution to the issue. Enemy and level design is balanced around the ability to fast travel, so replacing it with a system more akin to Dark Souls 1 (with fewer Sites of Grace and a limited, more diegetic warp system) would probably make the game very boring and frustrating; boss runs would be absolutely out of the question, for a start.
I think the dumbest part about the teleportation traps is that they teleport you most of the time near a site of grace; so instead of getting the feeling that I actually got trapped I end up getting spoiled about 3 late-game areas instead which just removed any fun of exploring new things I had lol They also should've changed a lot of filler dungeons into the cool ones in late-game; the looping one was fun, teleporting chest dungeon was nice and the invisible floor one reminded me of the crystal cave in a good way. Instead you end up with 50+ dungeons with only 4 unique ones while the rest is super formulaic where you can predict the outcome of each type of dungeon.
Demons Souls and Dark Souls established and enhanced realistic, meaningful, creative and grounded designs. Ever since the souls games split from these older, more fleshed out and thought provoking characteristics into reactive, pattern learning, timing checks to see how well you can press buttons things have changed. Both can be fun, both have their playerbase that enjoys it. And thats great. We had BB, DS3, Sekiro and Elden Ring. The button mashers got their fill. When is our turn in getting a game like Demons or Dark Souls again? Or at the very least go out there Michael Zaki and tell us that you wont do any of that ever again and just make your next Berserk game uh I mean Elden Ring 2. Then I can at least move on and stop hoping that these games will ever become something more again.
Update since I recently read about Miyazaki saying that ER seemed to be a little in over their head saying its as big as they can make a game and that they wont do another game like that for a long while, focusing on a few smaller games in the forseeable future while also letting other creative heads at Fromsoft take charge this slight bit of hope is coming through again. Maybe they did in fact learn from ERs massive blunders in design and the next games will be just the creative, thought provoking and interesting Demons Souls-like that we wish for. Or it will just be another button masher with no substance. Time will tell. At the very least they will tone done the ridiculous copy-pasting ER had... surely
@@JohnKasarinlanLOTF was slop, the gank reminds me of ds2. That game was clearly trying to be a sequel to ds2, even the menu are straight out of ds2, saying the game “understood the games more than FS” is just an insult. Like how many bad takes come out of your mouth lol, every comment I read you’re trying to paint yourself as correct and better than others, constantly calling people who disagree with you fanboys as to prop yourself up and put others down is a pathetic tactic. You even agreed and praised (comparing it to Matthew is an insult) the FK video lmao, that’s how ik you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about and your sense of quality is horrible.
It’s a shame MatthewMatosis doesn’t have millions of subscribers as no one else on this site even comes close in terms of writing and perspective. The sheer foresight of this video is uncanny. Discourse over these games and TH-cam criticism in general are still playing catch up.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 My (admittedly limited) experience with NCG has been that he mostly just says a lot of flowery words that ultimately mean nothing, or are outright incorrect.
@@EmberBright2077 Couldn’t disagree more but as I said, to each their own. Noah just has a very different approach to other creators. He looks at games more holistically and how they fit into the broader canon of media and pop culture that influenced and inspired them and less from a game design perspective like Mathew does. I can see why some would find this boring and “meaning nothing” but I personally find it fascinating.
HAHAHA I remember thinking how From had gone to the dogs with Elden Ring. Now they announce Nightreign. Jesus Christ. I suppose all that's left at this point is a Soulsbourne/Elden Ring crossover fighting game or MOBA. What an undignified end to this series.
One big thing this video doesn't touch on is the music. Even if the composition quality can be low, it's very unique for almost no tracks with vocals and much more atmosphere-driven than any other game in the series. Then, I played the Demon's Remake, where they ruined the OST by filling every track with bombast and chanting (the Dirty Colossus having an "epic" theme feels like self-parody) and it made me realize that this issue extended across all of From's output DaS2 onward. Like, it feels like almost every single boss theme since had to have a choir of some kind, and while I can't speak for Sekiro (the OST was so boring none of it ever registered to me), this problem really peaks in Elden Ring, even if I do find some of the songs to be really cool.
The Sekiro OST uses a lot of Japanese instruments to evoke the feeling of the setting it is in. The bombast is not lost on bosses that deserve it, such as Isshin, Gyoubu and Genichiro. The the more somber or atmospheric tracks still exist however, with examples like Emma's being more melancholic instrumentation, and the track "Apparitions" used for ghost enemies evoking a feeling of other-worldiness with the traditional whistling and low humming of the arrangement.
@@SurprsdPenguin A lot of fans hated Sekiro OST, I think it was the best FromSoftware OST since Demon's Souls & Dark Souls 1. Sekiro isn't exactly a "Soulsborne" game, but it had an understated OST for a FromSoftware game.
Well done. This video has aged well. I clicked for DeS and got my unpopular opinion on Fromsoftware's entire post-DeS arc articulated back at me. The special appeal of these early games is in exploring and presenting immersive novelty, and more developers should take inspiration from their spirit rather than the specifics of i-frame spam, character action-lite implementation.
I could see him liking Sekiro for what it is. It’s a very competent action game, and it actually has mechanics that work better with its action system than DS3 or Bloodborne did. Its combat is definitely more complex, though still nothing approaching Devil May Cry, for example. I think that I don’t like Sekiro just because it’s not my thing, and DS is. I like RPG mechanics and progression. Sekiro doesn’t REALLY have these. Don’t forget, Matthew has beaten Devil May Cry on the hardest difficulty while taking no damage. He definitely likes twitch action games. I can’t be sure what he would think, but whether he agrees with me or not, I can be sure he’d have some good insight.
I think the fact that the "souls" games have gone from: >Death immediately halves your HP. >Repeated deaths make the world harder. >Can be invaded at any time while human. To: >Recharging estus, mimic tear, curse doesn't even lower HP, etc. >Death has no punishment beyond soul/rune loss. >Can only be invaded in co-op. really says all it needs to about these games and who they're intended for. (Hint: not fans of the original games)
I used to be in stubborn disagreement with this video for years. I loved this series, I was having fun, no reason for them to change what they were doing. And then comes Elden Ring, and most recently the DLC... They really did it, they hit the limit with how far they can push this type of combat and it's finally become tiresome. Rolling and hitting and rolling some more, over and over and over. Or of course you can entirely ignore the game design with summons that break the AI or with a variety of broken OP builds. Because that's fun right? The regretable thing is I don't see them going back to the unconventional Demon's Souls style of designing bosses any more. We're stuck with this now and the overwhelming amount of new players will tell you it's better this way.
Shadow of the Erdtree has a mixed review score on Steam with players lamenting that it's too hard, I think what they mean by "hard" is that they're not having fun with this combat system.
There can't be a simple "slow" enemy anymore. I got to the final area of the dlc and I was just rolling my eyes at this point seeing more heavily armored enemies with huge ass weapons moving around like there's no gravity. I deleted the game after I gave the final boss a few attempts. I'm so tired of memorizing a weaponized seizure for the 50th time
@@turnip5178 I don't think so. People are really, really dumb. Millions out there think Elden Ring is the greatest thing ever. The "too hard" remarks are symptom of the series becoming stale. They keep releasing the same game over and over so the only way to outdo the last is to make fights crazier and harder. I remember thinking how absurd the Melania fight was when I beat it. SOTE is just hitting a tipping point for many in terms of difficulty, people who would otherwise be happy to mindlessly consume the next Souls clone Bandai squats out.
I disagree on the idea that they ignore the game's design. Summons have existed and broken the AI from day one, its an online game. OP builds have existed since day one, its an RPG. From is completely ok with players doing either of this. It enables you to set the difficulty of the game to what the player desires.
@@SnorkCosmodix That's a fair point. My problem with it is how vast the difference is between the two in Elden Ring. The bosses are relentless solo, with very small windows to attack, but with summoning you can just freely attack them while they're distracted. It ignores so much about the fight's design that it becomes a complete joke. Similar with stuff like bleed builds, that just shred boss health bars compared to nearly any other weapon type. It doesn't feel like a balanced experience of setting your own difficultly, it's either roll timing memorization or total cheese.
Not really. Elden Ring is excellent. Matthew is far too harsh on the more recent From Soft games. I agree with him on the fact that Demon's Souls (and to an extent DS1) had a unique charm that has somewhat been lost, but the recent games have still been fantastic. Do I wish they were a bit more like the older ones? Yes. Do they have some annoying design trends? Sure. But they are still top tier video games, and there is no reason to "worry".
@@MarkHogan994 ER is a fantastic world with mediocre gameplay. It's essentially what you get if you design a souls game to serve the lowest common denominator. It's still going to be great for a lot of people, and it's fine to love it (or not). However Sekiro and ER are the first FS games that I got bored of after a few days and put down to play other things. For people like me, the games have actually just gotten worse.
Man I was wondering why I was feeling bored of Elden Ring even after changing my build 3 times. After the novelty of the open world wears down you are left with bosses that are just gael on crack or gankfests, and copypasted minidungeons with mediocre rewards. There are no surprises or anything. Legacy Dungeons were the highlight of the game for me, the verticality adds a lot to exploration and Stormveil castle is just as good as boletaria, despite the high amount of bonfires and teleporting instead of making the level cycle on itself.
And maybe I exaggerated about there being no surprises. Those crazy chariot dungeons despite being unfair and rage inducing were fun in the end, just because they were different, a new challenge more similar to a puzzle/plataforming section that was a nice break from boss-with-a fifteen-seconds-long-attack-chain-and-input-reading #27, which is regrettable since those dungeons end on another boring bossfight with a mediocre reward
@@bobsnob9246 You're right about the lack of surprises, personally the worst disappointment I had with Elden Ring was how completely static and boring the open world is. It was a golden opportunity for FromSoft to create interesting traversal challenges and instead they just copypasted the usual poison swamps (which can be completely trivialized by using the horse) and nothing else. Even Dragon's Dogma has more interesting area gimmicks like Windworm Valley. In fact ER does absolutely nothing interesting or creative neither as an open world game nor as a Souls game.
@@sagejay9816 yeah I thought the world was the best since ds1 but once you run out of stuff to explore its apparent the mechanics of the series haven't gotten any better. The final stretch of bosses are particularly cheap.
@@AldricJFL When I got to the "Super Saiyan 4!" poison swamp I just sighed really hard and the weight of my disappointment with from's lack of restraint (and it seems originality at this point) collapsed on me like a structurally compromised brick house.
I really appreciate coming back to this comment section just because it's the only place I can organically find people disliking Elden Ring without being willfully toxic assholes about it. Every single person I know who has played it cannot stop gushing about it, and they have very valid reasons to love the game, it's just SUPER SUPER SUPER not for me, in large part due to all the things this video enumerates. But holy fuck has it been isolating seeing a ton of my friends on a discord call together playing it, and knowing I can't jump in because I WILL be asked why I don't like this game AGAIN, likely multiple times, before having someone try and pitch a late-game section to me. What's that? You're telling me there's a Berserk reference? In a FromSoft game? My god, I haven't been this excited since the last time I held my keyring in front of my face and jingled it around a little. Again, super happy for my friends. But I really appreciate having all of you around to commiserate with.
I had a friend threaten to block me for harassment because i shared my less than stellar opinion of the game while i played through it. Said he refused to ever talk about this game with me ever again unless it was more positive. He was pretty normal until this game came out. Im honestly perplexed that a series that was once quite reflective and solemn has attracted such a cult like appraisal for all the things it no longer is.
@@TheEnigmaStyle YO FORREAL THAT’S TOXIC AS FUCK. I saw someone say that “people harp on the reused animations because it’s one of the only valid criticisms of the game” and like, I get that the game has a lot of polish, but the hype train has really poisoned the discourse HARD. I avoid talking to my friends about it because I’m paranoid my miasma of depression will become contagious. Your friend telling you to stop talking to them about it is some utter toxic bullshit though and I’m so sorry you have to go through that.
@@phirmth I had a similar experience yesterday evening while watching a Souls streamer play Elden Ring on Twitch. I got dogpiled on not just by the people in chat, but the STREAMER as well, just because I brought up things I didn't like about Elden Ring. They erroneously jumped to the conclusion that I hate Elden Ring, when I wasn't even that harsh on the game. I had to clarify that I like the game, I'm just critical of its flaws. Apparently that wasn't good enough for them though, since some dumbshit Souls fanboy replied to me saying "Who cares about the flaws?". As if I'm somehow an idiot for bringing up major flaws that tarnish the memorable experience you're supposed to have playing these games. The fact that I can't even go 5 seconds without being barraged by Souls fanboys for being critical of the game is absolute horseshit. A lot of people say "it's just a vocal minority, the Souls community are actually really helpful!", but I find that harder and harder to believe, with all the incidents I've seen with other content creators regarding the Souls community. If I didn't already hate the Souls fanbase before Elden Ring, I certainly do now thanks to the discourse surrounding this game...
Agreed about the combat. By the time you hit DS3 bosses are basically a glorified skipping rope. You learn the I-Frames for a boss and the brief moments when you can punish. For all the fanfare of epic orchestral music and giant armored badasses it is a combat system where only 2 buttons really matter, R1 and Dodge
I definitely agree with you on the music especially. Too much of the music in the later games are grand orchestral musics that on their own are good but really not memorable
yeah but at least in ds3 you can consitantly avoid damage by jumpingh on the rope. In the early games you pretty much must have a shield or the whole game crumbles into nothing
@@HoneyDoll894 I dunno man I never used a shield for Dark Souls 1. I can't speak for Demon's Souls because I sucked too much at that game when it released.
I was looking for this kind of comment. Can you say a little more about Elden Ring? I can't play it by myself and gameplay seems to be unchanged after ds3
@@aldecotan I haven’t finished it yet but Matt’s video is spot on about the problems with the combat. The bosses have gotten a lot more extravagant and have various ranged moves, gap closers, etc while player options have not meaningfully improved. Plenty of bosses have “gotcha” animations that are just annoying and needlessly pad out fights where you’re often only able to take two or three hits before needing to heel. As for combat, you’re still cycling through magic, items, etc clumsily and it becomes deflating when you go know that you’re going to have to hunker down and eventually memorize the boss move set. They feel far less satisfying to beat now probably because we’ve played all this before, now with just more bullshit. The animation delays oftentimes fly in the face of physics itself and make many bosses look like Dancer of the Boreal Valley. Moreover the open world is not well justified either, as fighting enemies becomes extremely tedious and unrewarding, traversal is not unique or challenging, and you’re not exactly dealing with the elements or random encounters. The exploration doesn’t always reward you either and at times it saps joy out of going places. This would be less annoying in the other games because you don’t have to run around as much, but Elden Ring is stuffed with padding and becomes a slog if you’re not an ultra hardcore souls fan. I hope Matt makes a review of Elden Ring because he would have a lot to say about the open world design.
@@5ifth you are just stating random things and/or repeating what matthewmatosis said in the videoa and applying it to elden ring, like for example you say that the players' actions were not meaningfully improved when ER has far wider viable moveset than any souls game, because in dark souls as a melee character you were pretty much limited to like 3 viable actions: R1 attacks, rolling and sometimes blocking, which became weaker in next titles, but still pretty reliable. Most R2s were useless, because spamming R1s did more damage anyway, especially during bossfights and parrying or backstabs didn't work on bosses. Elden Ring actually uses all of those mechanics and adds a few more. Pretty much every move you have is useful (besides backstep why was it ever in any souls game?) because you can break enemy's posture with heavy attacks, guard counters, jump attacks and parrying can be used more often on bosses/minibosses. You also have dozens of switchable weapon skills. Mathewmatosis had a problem that the game supposedly focusing more on action while not deeping the combat, but ER has better and deeper combat, so what's the problem with that?
@@5ifth I disagree that player options have not changed. Heavy attacks stagger and are optimal for aggressive play, but require smart timing. Weaponarts/skills have been buffed to be viable, allowing for more potential combos, not to mention sleeping debuff, or summoning trash mobs that deal no damage to the boss but take agro from the boss for a while, but not long since you hitting them makes them target you again. If you are smart, you can cheese lot of the bosses in the game, but some might consider it cowardice. Overall the combat is slightly deeper and more complex in classic other action game ways and rather then being copy of ds3 as everybody is talking about, it is rather the equivalent to ds3 as Dark Souls was to Demon Souls. Not much innovation, increased size of the map, combat polish and so on. Though the lack of gimmicky bossfights is kinda sad. One of my favourite bossfights in the game are the Crystallian dudes in mines, because they have very smart gimmick to them where you cant damage them with normal weapons, and have to use blunt weapons to shatter them, which imo was really well done gimmick unlike most of ds3 gimmick bossfights.
I think the main reason people hate Micolash isn't because of the fact that he runs away. It's that when you actually do catch up to him, he spams a projectile magic attack that has insane tracking and that one shots you if all of it connects. It feels incredibly cheap to die to. Especially since that same attack costs the player 9 quicksilver bullets to use and yet he can spam it as many times as he wants. The problem I have with gimmick fights in souls games is that more often than not, they're executed horribly. The ideas are interesting, but they rarely ever translate well into gameplay(A prime example being the bed of chaos). The inclusion of more traditional bosses in the recent souls games is probably a result of the refinement you mentioned. People seem to enjoy bosses like Flamelurker and Allant alot more than some of the more gimmick based fights. Personally, I will always prefer bosses that challenge my knowledge of a games mechanics over gimmick fights.
@@carlschrappen9712 I agree with you, there are action games that do those type of bosses much better than fromsoft. It's just that fromsoft rarely ever executes these gimmick bosses well. There are a few execptions like the one you mentioned, but the majority of them aren't very good in my opinion. The combat in souls isn't very deep, but it's still fun. So fights that test my knowledge of the games combat are enjoyable to fight for me even though there are games that do it better.
@@carlschrappen9712 I wouldn't really call Sif a gimmick boss. He's more of a lore boss if you ask me. Him limping towards the end of the fight was bloody soul crushing though :( But yeah I think an even balance of both types of fights would be ideal. Just for me personally, when I replay these games the gimmick bosses lose their charm since I already know the trick behind them. But I can understand why they're in the game and why some people like them.
@@carlschrappen9712 I find it funny that people seem to think that the combat in Sekiro has alot of depth when in reality it really doesn't. I found myself playing it the exact same way on all of my subsequent playthroughs and the only reason I even replayed it was to get the other endings. These people really need to play a game that actually has really deep combat like Devil may cry for example. That being said, the combat in Sekiro is pretty solid and is something unique to the traditional souls formula. But yeah as I said, an equal balance of both gimmick and traditional fights would be ideal. I just hope the gimmick fights aren't bed of chaos levels of quality though and are more similar to the likes of the storm king and maiden astrea lol.
I am so glad that I am not the only person who enjoyed Micolash. It pisses me off how so many people judge a boss entirely based on how hardcore difficult it was
Personally I felt that Micolash was interesting, but hindered by his attacks. He would constantly spam Augur and Call Beyond which made the fight portion boring since you’re just strafing or dodging the same two attacks, unless he tried an occasional punch which didn’t exactly require any strategy. On the contrary, the running sections were a unique twist, I liked that if you were keeping pace with him you could slip through the gate at the end, though finding the path around from above was also enjoyable. Yet a slight mistime in dodging in the attack phase could result in a one-shot and thus running through the same path again became tedious.
Funnily enough my only issue with Micolash is actually that he can be hardcore difficult on higher NG+ cycles. At a certain point, his A Call Beyond spell legit one shots you. You have to move in close to him quickly so he doesn't use it, but that's usually hard to do when you've just dropped down for phase 2. He usually gets off at least one cast of A Call Beyond, and if you get hit, you're dead, unless you have insane HP and insane Arcane resistance.
Or maybe it's the fact that the Gehrmans & Marias reiterate upon an old, successful-- or at least non-broken formula, where Micolash is a new, experimental concept of which From doesn't stick the landing. You don't need to be partial to difficulty to recognize Bed of Chaos & Dragon God's shortcomings. Personally I think Micolash fails in most of the same ways Frenzy does.
Elden Ring DLC Spoilers: I think it's telling that one of my favorite parts of the Elden Ring DLC was when I stumbled into the Abyssal Woods. No other area in the game had an atmosphere quite like it. I vividly remember trying to ride Torrent into the woods, then being thrown off, and then realizing you can't summon him anymore because he was afraid. That was deeply unsettling. The dev messages found in the woods were a little heavy-handed, but they set the tone for the area properly - the tone being "Something is very wrong with this place, and you must tread very carefully." Looking back on it, the woods amount to a mostly empty area with a dungeon at the end and a very, very basic stealth section in between, but the unease and uncertainty I felt while exploring the woods for the first time was legitimate, and that memory has stuck with me more than most things from the dlc. To borrow something from Matt's video: the woods weren't good just because it was different, but that variety certainly helped.
@@wisemage0 And not only forced stealth sections, but forced stealth sections in a massive area that is almost entirely empty that you can't even navigate with your horse.
@@wisemage0 My comment was meant to illustrate a point from the video. The point was that variety is important. Compared to other games with stealth mechanics, the stealth mechanics found in Elden Ring are unremarkable. I'm not praising it for that. It's the fact that there's no other area in the game like the Abyssal Woods that's important. That doesn't make the Abyssal Woods good on its own, but I do remember it fondly because of the strong sense of dread I had while exploring it. Even if the gameplay is simple, the overall experience can still be good if it's propped up by other things, like strong art direction and good sound design.
@@UnbreakableJake I get where you're coming from: the spark was there. I reached that area, read a message left by the game saying "combat is not an option here", but then I kept trying to backstab those creatures instead of avoiding them because I assumed the message was false (which it was). In an earlier instalment I would've taken that message at face value and acted accordingly, there would've been less of a jarring disconnect between the game and I. Instead it turned into an optional parry challenge that completely undermined the horror elements. Also, I've ridden torrent off of like 30 different cliffs, there's no way that horse is scared of walking through a spooky forest!
The bar definitely is lower but because I don’t think there’s anything really moody or good about the abyssal woods. You’re doing a vibes take and I’m just gonna say, there are better areas in from soft games that aren’t literally barren with a very poor mechanical homage to Bloodborne where a parry style mechanic felt REALLY good to do and was much more lenient. The best part is you can get locked out of experiencing Torrent throw you off of itself in fear. This is a big issue with Elden Ring in general, when you really start scrutinizing the details you see that a lot of the game really depends on the player playing it in a very specific way and ensuring the player sees or does something is just left to new game plus cycles where the first impression may have been destroyed. And I’m saying this as someone who was thrown from Torrent and can’t really replicate the experience. There’s nothing about Frenzy in the main game where torrent gets scared around villages afflicted by frenzy in the main game. Areas where people use the flame of frenzy. It’s self indulgent on the part of the designers. The more you think about it the more it’s a detail that is grafted to the main game in this perceivable shitty way.
Teleportation has been the worst addition to the games in my opinion. When you venture down into Blight Town you better make sure you're prepared, because once you're down there there's no teleporting out again with zero consequences. It made the shortcuts so much more important, finding one an immense relief. You're lost in an unfamiliar place, probably with a bunch of souls and only so many heals.
Pretty much why in Elden Ring Lake of Rot (and Swamp of Aeonia to some degree although you could either go around the swamp anyway or traverse with a horse through it without consequences which is bad in a different way) felt nowhere as "scary" as Blighttown; if you're almost dead you can just warp back to the checkpoints if there's no enemies nearby (and there's barely any of them) so the entire dreadful feeling about searching for the nearest bonfire to survive is pretty much gone.
@@ToastieMcMuffin Yeah definitely. I also think having a map indicate exactly where you are also takes some of the fun away, you're not inclined to really think about where you are and remember the routes back to safety.
That's why I actively try not to use it. After my 2nd character (I'm on my 5th by now) I started not using the warp mechanic as much I could. Rather walk/ride my way to whatever objective I have in mind. Exceptions made to the Roundtable hold, and Ranni's church (up in the other Plateau)
The cumbersome mechanics of the series are, in a way, the things that used to make it special. Weapon durability meant you had a chance to bond with the Blacksmiths. Lack of fast travel made the world feel huge and cohesive as if you were just a small piece of a grander puzzle. The intricate placement of bonfires/lamps allowed the levels to feel truly labyrinthian ( a feature mostly gone in Elden Ring).
Ah, yes. Confirmation bias. The best form of objective reasoning. I too only search for things that agree with my viewpoint instead of realizing it is me that has different taste.
@@pollertry4003 he wrote the backstory and lore, essentially everything that happens up until your tarnished arrives. the actual player storyline is all FromSoft
This video has aged incredibly well with the release of Elden Ring. While I adore Elden Ring, I can't help but feel like I'm being forced to cheat the system when so many of the new bosses have attacks that are specifically meant to catch me rolling and bowl over the entire arena rather than provide me with an interesting and memorable experience. I'd say most bosses in Elden Ring are harder than most bosses in Dark Souls, but there isn't a single boss experience I've had that I'd compare to Gwyn or Artorias.
I agree that it's tough sometimes to fully appreciate a boss fight in Elden Ring because of how crazy the bosses go on you with constant attack strings full of delayed swings and AOEs. I think this issue started with DS3 when they somehow thought that Bloodborne style bosses and their manic second phases would be something that the less nimble Dark Souls player character could handle. The temptation to resort to cheese has been overwhelming ever since. I do think that Matt heaps way too much praise on Demon's Souls though (giving it credit for being different with its poison swamp and criticizing subsequent titles for having a poison swamp...I guess he doesn't know what a Fromsoft staple those have been for years before Demon's Souls, lol) and shortchanges the original Dark Souls in terms of its "soul". Demon's Souls is also a refinement of previous Fromsoft ideas, and ironically, its combat is certainly the most innovative thing (and the thing which I believe enabled people who weren't into slow paced dungeon crawler RPGs to develop an interest) about it compared to Fromsoft's previous games like the King's Field series. He also says that Gwyn's piano music was effective simply because it was different, but that's really underselling it. The sad piano music works brilliantly in the context of the game's story and lore. Not just because it sounds different. In other words, it works because of all those glowing adjectives that he invoked near the end when talking about Demon's Souls. Whether he realizes it or not, a lot of people feel that for Dark Souls and so they may not agree with him that Demon's Souls has more soul than the original Dark Souls (or Bloodborne). Does it have more soul/immersiveness than Dark Souls 2 and 3? Yeah, I think you'd get less argument there (DS2 is polarizing and DS3 is a direct story sequel to DS1).
I think it really comes back to the fact that Demons' Souls (and, theoretically, Dark Souls), were explicitly not made with the intention of being hard. Miyazaki's said over and over again that difficulty was not the point, but you CANNOT tell me that's the case anymore. When I see a boss do a crazy attack combo, I no longer thing "wow this boss/character is so cool," I think "wow, the designers are really trying to kill me with this one," or "well this pattern looks tough to learn." I love arcadey, game-ass games, Platinum is arguably my favorite studio, so I should theoretically like it when FromSoft makes something more explicitly gamey, but they're just straight-up bad at it IMO.
Honestly I feel like the Ashes system didn't go far enough despite being so heavily pushed. I like the idea of a distraction system to make bosses this fucking unwieldy more manageable, yet still a threat if you're not careful. As of now it's pretty basic.
This video is prophetic and spot on, especially now with Elden Ring. The open world has still that spark of adventure the series is well know for. However, most of the encounters present you with the same, repetitive scenarios: ambush-infested, 'pull-the-lever-to-unlock-the-boss' dungeons - and spam-party boss fights of delayed, 360 tracking string and sudden input-reading "gotcha" attacks designed to punish you for going in after their 'big-stompy-aoe-10-hit -combo-finisher'. It reminds me of DS2 in a way, it being still an above average game despite its (many, many) flaws. But goddamnit, man. Just... goddamnit.
DS2 has an excuse and can be forgiven because of it’s horrid development cycle and that Yui Tanimura had to make some agressive changes to make the game even playable on third generation hardware. That the game came out as great as it did is a miracle. Elden Ring doesn’t really have that, plus, DS2’s DLCs really helped make the game an absolute gem. Can’t wait for the Flames of Old mod.
Hey hey hey, check it out. A person who is not a paid shill or a brainwashed mob that praises Elden Ring as 10/10 masterpiece? I hope you share my depression because every time I watch this video I am more dead inside than I was before. I miss Demon's Souls so much.
I swear the AoEs that just about every single boss has exist has a lazy counterbalance to ashes. They still can't figure out a way to make the AI any better/it still sucks balls at dealing with multiple targets. So "why not just have every boss randomly explode the ground after their 12-hit combo!" to hit all the spirits.
So true about Bosses delaying their attacks to throw you off guard...that's literally the only reason Nameless king was challenging...i would roll too early
The comment about Maiden Astraea rings so true. Elden Ring would've NEVER had one of its culminating bosses be a normal woman, who blows her brains out if you kill her bodyguard. Just could not have happened. Yet, she stands as more mechanically interesting than anything not named Starscourge Radahn or Fire Giant, and the only boss that comes close narratively to her is Hoarah Loux. Such a damn shame.
If Commander Gaius were from Demon's or Dark Souls, I guarantee From would've added a way to cheese him by baiting him and making him charge off the cliff like with Ceaseless Discharge. But modern From has to make every boss the same now, no interesting mechanics or ideas allowed.
@@sw-oe8iv Because of the playerbase. Look what happened to Dark Souls 2. It had the most amount of interesting ideas and unique boss mechanics out of ALL the FromSoft games, and people absolutely hated it, INCLUDING MATTHEW. So the community only has themselves to blame, Fromsoft did the analysis and the community vastly prefers rollspam to interesting mechanics.
@avelonzx I guess you can say DS2's bosses were filled with unique ideas, but slapping boss health bars on a rat with a Mohawk or copying the Undead Burg Gargoyle but with half a dozen at the same time aren't *good* ideas, plus that game is still filled with design choices to just make it harder (spam-ambushes, incredible amount of multi-boss boss fights, groups of enemies that aggro simultaneously so you can't bait them individually, ridiculous enemy tracking) which were all increased relative to DS1, it wasn't some return to Demons Souls style design
@@WarCriminalPhlox That's like saying Dark Souls 1 bosses suck because Capra Demon, Centipede Demon, Firesage Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Ceaseless Discharge, Pinwheel, Bed of Chaos and Stray Demon are all bad bosses. Every game has bad aspects. You don't refute any of my claims by bringing in a few bad examples.. Not every boss in Demon's Souls was a slam dunk either, Leechmonger, Dirty Colossus and Dragon God are all really bad. The dragons were also very lackluster and lazy, yet I would still say Demon's Souls had creative boss design. Just a few counter examples don't refute it.
@avelonzx what do you think are the good unique bosses of DS2 then? I certainly don't remember any, except maybe the concept of the Medusa poison arena. I find it hard to remember any bosses at all from that game, it more often than not just slaps boss healthbars and music over enemies that could hardly be considered bosses at all, and many involve spamming the player with minor enemies alongside them
Since when? What fromsoft games released since this video aired? Elden Ring had obviously a different focus but still showed some great unexpected ideas
@@pawlogates There was Sekiro, which leaned very heavily into action part of action RPG. The light stealth mechanics and movement were new and cool, but the main combat boils down to "press attack and block with good timing" far more than before.
@@pawlogates Since Dark Souls 2, arguably. Elden Ring may have different focus, but the template it used is literally the exact same as Soulsborne with slight changes, hence why it still falls under the same criticisms.
@@slinger8839 I don't think it's fair to drag Sekiro into the equation. They never advertised it as an RPG or Souls games, the game is too different to be criticized in the same manner as Soulsborne. Besides, those who think that its main combat boils down to "press attack and block with good timing" definitely didn't care enough to explore all the other options that the game actually offers, and it's not in the same vein as Bloodborne's transforming weapons, hence I'm questioning people ability to truly assess the game's quality.
The over-reliance on dodge rolling is really killing the series. I prefer to play without a shield and I'm one of the few psychopaths out there who actually likes the ADP system in DS2 but even for me it's becoming too much. Spending an hour trying to beat one lousy Godskin Noble in ER is no fun at all, and why even bother having all these neat new mechanics, Ashes of War and spells when most boss fights just boil down to a boring series of hit and run attacks against an opponent with a gigantic health pool? It just feels like an endurance test.
Sometimes I think the series would've been vastly improved if invincibility frames had been removed from rolling. Maybe give 50% damage reduction if you're hit while rolling, but the magical I-frames you get from somersaulting have become the single most important mechanic in the entire series, and it's rather silly.
Honestly Elden Ring is still a step in the right direction. I literally hate Dark Souls 3 with how they killed shields in that game, but in ER they absolutely made sure they are more than viable. I killed Radahn in the DLC with a 90% damage absorb medium shield with a heavy rolling character and it wasn't even that hard. Guard Counters were the best addition to these games since the Estus Flask, and with the new Deflect Tear it's even better. I think Miyazaki definitely had some mid-life crisis around 2016-2019 with DS3 and Sekiro but he is back on track with Elden Ring at least somewhat. The only problem really with ER for me are the boss designs, nothing else and tbh bosses were never the highlights of these games for me.
@@avelonzx Completely disagree. Elden Ring seemed like a complete doubling-down on all things later Souls games were doing wrong, while copying the most superficial elements of those games, and taking place in an "open-world" just for the sake of it. It also ruined invasions to the point that they may as well not even exist.
Well, in DS3 they still tried something new for the formula, too, even though there was a lot of fanservice. At least there were some gimmicky bosses and experiential moments like what Matthewmatosis discussed in this video. It's really Elden Ring that turned into what Matthew feared the most, just a ton of samey bosses with no focus on these experiential moments like in DeS and DS whatsoever. It's really sad, ER is still a good game overall, but I'd call it one of the weakest modern FromSoftware games, better only than DS2.
@Jurglenuts Thanks, drew it myself. I know quite a lot of people enjoy DS2 for its own unique flair. I personally couldn't get into it enough to want to beat it. I'm probably never playing DS3 again, but I found it replayable because of the pacing. You go from location to location which are all quite distinct from each other. Not in the context of the series (poison swampsss), but in the context of the game.
Bb is nowhere near the level of Sekiro or ER it’s just the same as ds3 with slightly more attack options that are mostly useless. I hate when someone judges a game’s complexity solely of the amount of attack options you have, that’s when you get brain dead takes like ER combat is bad because it’s simple, they don’t even realize that the enemy/boss design is what makes souls games complex. It’s equally as bad a take as saying dmc is a button masher, because even on dmd its easy (except for dmc3 but that has a very simplistic combat and most enemies aren’t able to be juggled) completely brain dead.
@@kizuma4269 I like how half of that video, which has "advanced" in the title, is just explaining the same stuff that's told to the player during the tutorial (dodge, parry, guard counters) and the other half is just obvious crap (punish attacks with long recovery animations, position yourself properly). I don't think Souls fans know what "advanced" means
This is exactly what I think of Soulsborne. However, I'd like to add, that in many cases, the game you play first makes the biggest impression on you. The order I played the games was: Dark Souls II, Dark Souls, SOTFS, Bloodborne, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 3. Even though DSII is considered by most to be the worst of the series, I really liked it (and still do) because it was my introduction to the series and I have so many great memories from that game. Yet, I have to say, that Demon's Souls by far is the best ADVENTURE (as was brilliantly pointed out in the video). The overall atmosphere, the sounds, the silence, Flamelurker's and Manhunters boss themes that add to the feeling that the boss is going to be a big challenge... It's all there. The game makes you FEEL. Not only anger and frustration from a defeat or joy from a victory, but also despair and anxiety (Tower of Latria, Swamp). Fucking hell that moment when I saw that red phantom heading towards me from the darkness at the swamp... The ONLY time in Soulsborne I got scared. Also, in my opinion the game has by far the best endings. They both seem so final, you kind of know what is going to happen and there's no need for a sequel. The only regret is, that one broken archstone...
I completely agree, I played DSII and Bloodborne first, but Demon Souls is the first one I finished so I really wanted that level of detail in other games in the series. I do still like all the entries in the series tho, idk what people think about Sekiro but I'm a sucker for over the top action so I love it
I went DaS1->DaS2->BB->DeS->DaS3. Demon's Souls is probably my favorite overall, followed closely by BB and DaS1, both who do some things better, but lacks in other areas.
that Demon's Souls by far is the best ADVENTURE (as was brilliantly pointed out in the video). The overall atmosphere, the sounds, the silence, Flamelurker's and Manhunters boss themes that add to the feeling that the boss is going to be a big challenge... It's all there" all these things are done better in new gen souls games. frankly this whole video can be boiled down to nostalgia.
I was really hesitant to play Demon's Souls as I knew it didn't have interconnected world. After finally trying it out for the first time this year via emulation, I'm suprised to say it even surpasses Dark Souls 1 for me. So no, it's not just nostalgia. There's a lot of things Demon's Souls simply did better when it comes to level design, world building and atmosphere.
I love DS2 the most but DeS has absolutely the best atmosphere out of all the games. Flamelurker’s theme still gives me chills. My personal list is DS2 > DeS > BB > DS1 > DS3 > ER.
This is why I love Darksouls 1 and despise Darksouls 3. Anyone remember Taurus demon on the bridge? The moment you realised you could lure him to the tower and drop down, killing him that way? I sure did and I felt smart for figuring it out. Now take Pontav Sullivan (thats spelled correct right?). I didnt feel any relief finishing that boss, nor did I have the feeling I figured the boss out. I just spammed roll and block, hoping for the best. Darksouls 3 is about KNOWING the boss, rather than figuring it out. Discovering that using the destroyed pillars during Smough and ornstein made it easier, adding to the fight. Not because it was an easy mode option, but because you learned and adapted. No boss in Darksouls 3 has an enviremontal mechanic. None, the only thing you need to figure out is when to roll. And that in itself says enough.
alturius4 Man, I feel the same way about ceaseless discharge. I felt so clever when I hide in one of the crevices in the rock, then proceeded to beat the hell out of his arms/tentacles when he tried to hit me. Kind of cheesy, but clearly intended by the devs.
Dark Souls has a few of those Things. For example i remember how amazing my first fight against the abyss watchers was, when i noticed that the third one attacked the other 2 watchers. You can use the area against a lot of bosses like aldrich, Crystal sage, ancient wyvern, yhorm, twin princes.
Pontiff Sulyvahn is a bad example to use because he has the shade in phase 2 that does what the real Sulyvahn does in advance and you can use to your advantage if you figure out how it works
@@dkDolphino You prove my point. DS3 bosses are all cases of "Bash your head against the boss wall and be sure they crack first" rather than using the environment to create strategies. DS3 bosses are for 90% "Simon says roll" fights. And those kind of fights are okay, but Sulyvhan is rolling and wait for a chance to strike. While some of the bosses in previous game gave you the chance to CREATE your own oppertunities
The final boss for the DLC of Elden Ring feels like a massive shitpost. The phase 2 for that fight is genuinely mindboggling. What the fuck were they thinking? Even with mimic tear I was struggling lmfaooooi
I calmed down a little bit and I do think overall the ER dlc is p good. The visuals are excellent but the open world is expectedly empty for the most part. P much all of the bosses are rollslop but I think Midra and Messmer are great despite that. The rollslop bosses can also be reasonably doable without mimic tear if you're patient enough but the final boss is actually retarded. Gaius took me like four fucking hours or some shit without mimic tear and I just broke down and cheesed the fuck out of the final boss because I was so sick of the dlc at that point lmfao
@Jurglenuts do you call everything you don’t enjoy slop? Many people enjoy ER combat and its much more than roll slop, you can jump over, low profile, position, use ashes to avoid attacks, deflect, and parry ER has a lot more to offer than just the roll it’s up to the player to experiment. Go watch a single ongbal video.
exactly why i came back to this video. i feel fromsoft has gone away with souls and has instead opted for surface level action games :( I think Bloodborne was the only exception, because that game in its own right isn't exactly a Souls game, but they really got rid of Souls when DS3 released. Elden Ring was a grave disappointment with its combat and story. Exploration etc was great I would say
@ it’s quite sad. I’d certainly rather play elden ring over something like black ops 6, but even the good stuff coming out these days is still a far cry from the stuff that came before.
Lucas Andres Costa The quote was about what the series has become. “It went from a game about outsmarting your opponent to a series where you press dodge at the right time.” He described his preferred experience the same way, one simple sentence. It’s just that the former is of far higher quality.
@@lucasandrescosta391 Not really. You can play tetris, and if you try to play the game by focusing on hitting buttons at certain times, you won't get very far at all. In dark souls, if all you do is focus on rolling at the right time, and attack when you don't roll, you'll be able to beat the entire game quite easily. The fact that all digital games result in pressing buttons at certain times does not mean that all game-play revolves around pressing buttons at certain times.
@@La0bouchere What i meant by my original comment is that anyone can reduce a game into a simplistic statement about it's gameplay removing all nuance about it in the process. For Tetris it would be something like "A game where you place bricks in the right spot", that statement doesn't say anything about the strategic value of the game and how hard it is to actually think about where you place the bricks in advance, to plan ahead. Same thing for the Dark Souls statement, there is much more to the game than just rolling at the right time. The statement does not say anything about how hard it is to actually dodge at the right times. What about how timings vary between bosses, how the game tries to trick you into panick rolling... You have to be smart in the way you roll, in different directions depending on enemy pattern, sometimes you would end up too far to counter attack if you roll the wrong way, the stamina management side of it, etc. Plus, Dark Souls is much more than that simple statement, what about build diversity, items enhancement, exploration, etc. You are doing the same with your statement: "In dark souls, if all you do is focus on rolling at the right time, and attack when you don't roll, you'll be able to beat the entire game quite easily." You can do the same thing with any game and make it sound easier or less complex than it actually is. "In football, if all you do is focus on passing the ball at the right time, and score when you are close to the goalie, you'll be able to win games quite easily." "In Dota 2, if all you do is focus on farming at the right time, and killing enemie heroes when they are in range, you'll be able to rise your ranking quite easily." etc, etc.
This video just keeps on giving especially with Elden Ring being what it is. Edit: Returning to this video after Erdtree DLC. Matt is not just a very skilled critic he's a bloody prophet
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 always felt very inspired by old school Survival Horror games to me. The combat is actually pretty similar to Silent Hill but more complex and refined, and the combat was always just a means to experience the world and it's harsh environments. The different weapons and builds were just there for extra variety and replayability, but the games after Dark Souls 1 seemed to think they were Devil May Cry and the world was just a backdrop to experience the combat.
I think that's not giving 3 enough credit, though. Because it is also very intricate in it's level design, although I agree that a lot of things are just in there because they are a "staple" at this point. LIKE THAT GODDAMN SWAMP!
@Nosferatu Zodd What are you talking about, no one even likes Dark souls 2 nowdays it seems and alot of stuff was removed in DS3 and brought back to DS1 Style. Also not sure about your interpretation of the world hated you in DS1, i felt more like the chosen one and everyone tryed to help me... somehow and went mad at some point. Gothic 1 has a world which shows you that everyone hates you :D
With the release of the Elden RIng DLC what a perfect time to revisit this video, Saying as how Elden Ring is just a culmination of all the things mentioned in this video.
@@TarsoJahnRibeiro I wouldn't even say Sekiro at this point, some of the DLC bosses act like they're from something like Devil may cry or Bayonetta, only with endless combo's and you have little to no utility apart from your Dark souls 3.5 moveset to do anything about it.
What I want back from demon souls is being able to climb 3 foot ledges again.
And jumping a ledge one time in the whole game.
Lazy Veteran have you heard of dark souls 3
Lazy Veteran I was replying to YOU, in regards to your comment on poise. Jesus Christ
@Lazy Veteran why are you so angry? It's not healthy to be so aggressive. Do you need someone to talk to?
now we got jumping anywhere
time just keeps proving him right
I love this line: "Games are more interesting when they're unshackled by expectations of a narrow-minded fan-base or the financial whims of a publisher."
I agree and I am especially exasperated with fan-bases. "Narrow-minded" hits it on the nose.
Floppy so true
Floppy Indeed. The fanbase ends up being the game's worst enemy, ironically enough.
Man I just want a Sonic game that understands what made the series good: 3D gameplay and lots of edgy characters. Is that too much to ask?
Tell me about it, man. No warping from the beginning and the interconnected world is what made Dark Souls 1 so special, but you wouldn't believe the number of people that prefer fast travel from the very beginning just because it's more convenient.
Narrow-sided is right, yeah. They don't see how immersion and the sense of adventure gets so much better with no warping allowed until the Lordvessel.
I wounder if they will ever do blue sentinels right
It was actually kind of heart breaking to have seen the reception of the „Demon‘s Souls“ remake got by the people who started their „souls“ journey with „Dark Souls“.
„Man, this swamp level is the worst level in the entire series, the game would be better without it!“
„Why do I always have to re-play the final level again before re-fighting False King Alant again? The newer games knew to give you a bonfire just before the final boss fight!“
„The Bosses are so easy. I mean, the only reason why a boss like the Fool‘s Idol is hard because you might not figure out imediatelly to kill the guy in the balcony! That‘s just an unfair gimmick, the boss itself is really easy!“
Because the most mainstream popular game up to that point was „Dark Souls 3“, which is the lost conveniently game-y one, most people kind of missed the point of why „Demon‘s Souls“ got famous and why it was considered „hard“.
The community loves swamp levels that's why there's atleast one in every soulsborne game. Agree with the rest
If there’s anything I’ve learned over the years, it’s that “gamers” (meaning the general gaming public) sees any kind of gameplay that isn’t explicitly entertaining as being “bad design”.
@@pramitpratimdas8198
The community absolutely does NOT. What they do love is making MEMES about swamp levels.
@@ImortalZeus13 And neglecting that purposeful "bad" design can enhance a games immersion such as Silent Hill 4s gameplay systems which were sorely misunderstood and criticized with SH4 remaining the consistently lowest rated of team silents creations, despite being their least dissonant game.
Understanding this is the difference between being a "gamer" and "one who plays games", one who plays games want to kill xx amount of hours with minimal frustration neglecting the artistic component of the medium over playability or other barriers of entry.
I kinda feel it's disappointing how Demon's, in a way, has retroactively been thought of as a Dark Souls Prototype.
It's sad, especially considering Demon's Souls did a few things better.
100% correct. It’s a shame.
Cause it is, dark souls was suppose to be the original. Demon souls was a test to see what works so in that regard it's basically a released alpha of dark souls 1. Everything after dark souls 1 went down hill. I do not agree with what he said about bosses in ds1 defensive mechanics. Shields are still more than viable and parrying gwen is possibly the best way to beat him so he is wrong here.
@LeadFaun dark souls 2 was a content packed game but was a mess. Bloodborne I love but not as an RPG just a action game. Alot of stuff in there is pointless honestly, you can LITTERALLY start the game with the strongest weapon and never need anything else. R1 is the best way to play, you don't need to party, back stab is complicated for no reason, shield is garbage I mean it's basic at best but I love the atmosphere. Dark souls 3 is nothing but phase 2s that you expect the ENTIRE TIME with no creative freedom or creativity in different builds. Demon souls is one of the worst in the series but it's unique and I think dark souls 1 blew up for all the right reasons and demon souls did not for all the right reasons
@LeadFaun that makes it unusable bro. That's like giving someone a gun but they can't shot it until they are up close. Why would I wait till I knock him out before I can back stab em? That's ruining your chances and you have to really give up on your beliefs at that point. Just cause he found it as an improvement doesn't mean we all do and obviously not from soft sense it's simple change and it still didn't come back. Might as well not had it at all by that point. You litterally sit there charging up something behind some on then you get to stab em smh a better fix would be to not allow back stabs if someone was moving. This would make it so they have to have been in recovery frames or unaware of the person behind them. If not that just remove it entirely and just do parrying only or just reduce backstab damage to a normal heavy damage
this video is 7 years old... insane how things were for dlc right now. dark souls movement and combat were being forced to fight a literal anime edge lord now.
Yeah it is interesting that I watched this video 5 years ago and disliked It but now I agree with him.
my thoughts exactly. I feel like fromsoft is slowly learning more and more wrong design choices. I think one of the reasons why sekiro felt so satisfying is because it was a spectacle fighter and it let you have that power to deal with the insane bosses you deal with. Elden ring is a game where you are a random dude being flung against the walls by a super saiyan.
It's kinda frustrating because they have a lot of cool interesting things going on even now and they are still miles better than ubisoft but i'm afraid they are slowly gonna go down that road
@@raikenleo1902 same i have that fear
Every time From puts out another Souls content, this video just ages better and better.
It's better designed than Elden Ring!
@@AlastairGames Not a high bar.
You briefly touched on it but part of the appeal to me going from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls was that both games had different settings with their own themes and imagery. Demon's Souls was a melancholic low fantasy setting with Abrahamic-esque imagery and themes, while Dark Souls was a dark reflection of high fantasy with a more overtly themes of doom. Each game felt different because they weren't constrained by the same setting and had a finished arc where the setting's story was complete. That's why Dark Souls 2 and 3 felt like they lacked the same impact, because they were retreading older ground and had to work around a setting that was already closed within its own story, instead of making something new to work with. This is why Bloodborne interested me from day one, because it's a new setting with a completely different tone and influences and isn't limited to previous games as to what it can do with its setting or story. The fact that it presents itself as gothic horror at first and then turns into cosmic horror is an example of what they can do when the developers are allowed to try something new.
I do wish I didn't know this last detail, though, because I feel like when I finally get to play Bloodborne I would have liked to experience the twist myself.
I don't think you know what low and high fantasy means.
@@ArilandoArilando Low Fantasy: _"A subgenre of fantasy fiction in which magical events intrude upon an otherwise-normal world."_ This does fit Demon's Souls, as the soul arts (the source of magic in the setting) is not a natural part of the setting, but instead is something that is released upon the world whenever someone awakens and makes a deal with the Old One, as King Allant did. The kingdom the game takes place in was a mundane one until magic was reintroduced and corrupted it.
High Fantasy: _"A subgenre of fantasy fiction defined by the epic (in the literary sense) nature of its setting or by the epic stature of its characters, themes or plot."_ This describes Dark Souls very well.
@@matthewmuir8884 Magic, dragons etc are an integral part of the world. What you're saying is nonsense.
@@ArilandoArilando No, not in Demon's Souls. Dragons and magic were introduced by the reintroduction of soul arts to the world; this is explained to the player at the very beginning of the game.
@@matthewmuir8884 I do not remember the particular details, and Demon's Souls lore like all Souls games is vague, but what you're saying cannot be true as the shrine of the Dragon God is implied to be very old. There are of course also faith based miracles in the game which are not based on soul arts.
This is why I hope Miyazaki is working on something new and surprising.
Same here.
one can only hope, but from the gameplay shown of the new game its just anime darksouls
That's not a fromsoft game
Bandai Namco is developing Code Vein in house, because it seems that From Soft is not currently developing a souls game. A while ago it was confirmed they were working on Armored Core 6, I'd be incredibly happy if Miyazaki were the director, since his last foray was a very new direction for the series. I don't know how everybody else feels about that though, I imagine most don't wanna play a mech game.
ISneezeRazorBlades They are working on 3 games at once. One is armored core, another is a traditional souls game and one is "something weird"
This is now all more relevant due to the DeS remake and how people want changes in it to streamline it and make it closer to Dark Souls.
tbf I think that if they made some changes to Grass, it could really improve the game. Also, I think that the visual changes are overall pretty great, excluding Flamelurker. That being said, if they change World Tendency too drastically or change really anything regarding level/enemy design, it would change the experience too much for me.
@@edgali I also thought vanguard looked pretty generic. The original felt like an eastern interpretation of a western demon. Whereas the remake just looks like western demon.
@@JKSmith-qs2ii Now that the game is out we can see how "western" the game became. The fat officials and vanguard being the biggest changes. Stockpile Thomas now looks like a total wanker.
we simply wanted 6th archstone cause it was initially intended to be in the game but it was removed due to low budget
@@digitalintent in the original he looked like a aging, but still somewhat young father/husband. In the remake he looks like James Corden wearing a shitty fake moustache. Facial movements are also extremely unsettling.
If you only knew how bad things really are
like fine wine
edit: And i'm not saying nightreign will be garbage, FROM making a spinoff game that heavily reuses assets is nothing new and reusing assets is something more game devs should be doing. My problem with it is so far the premise of the game sounds bland. "Co-op Elden Ring but there's preset hero characters that auto level ups and you run around the lands between before a battle royale shrinking circle gets you while fighting enemies across the Soulsborne games." This type of game I guess is "new" from FROM but it's retreading the same archetype of game we've seen pumped out for the past several years now.
This is such an excellent video, not just on the Souls games, but on game design as a whole. It's probably like my fourth time watching this, but I feel like I'm just now truly understanding everything you were trying to convey here. As I've thought about game design over the years I keep coming back to the conclusion that the best design moments in games that prioritize immersion come from adapting from real life directly, and then cutting down from there to arrive at the most sensible mechanics to express that complex experience, rather than starting with an established genre or framework and then stretching it to fit the experience you're trying to provide. The very few games that achieve this are so groundbreaking because they start with no design bias and built their foundations from the ground up. Demon's Souls is one such example, as are games like Thief: The Dark Project and the first Legend of Zelda. Each of these games have the designers on record describing a specific and personal real life experience that they wanted to adapt into a game, and I don't think it's a coincidence that each of these games fucking nailed the thematic framing of their respective mechanics, and are still unequaled in many of those ways. They are each a wholistic mechanical adaptation of a complete emotional picture, a picture that is based on the most necessary elements of a deep and nuanced real life experience.
This is a cool observation. I think part of the reason Breath of the Wild surprised me so much was my expectation that it would work more like a video game than reality.
This is why SH4 is a misunderstood masterpiece, it has no dissonance between gameplay, characters and story and world which equals chunkiness, unfairness and the core of survival horror difficulty and often frustration, it's like a mature cheese not everyone can appreciate it but those that do will see that it is actually team silents most artistic game
The worst thing that happened to these games, is the removal of any psychological elements to their gameplay. No fast travel in Dark Souls 1 was an inconvenience, but it was worth the tradeoff, because it furthered the immersion of the player. The world felt very dangerous, getting into a new, unfamiliar area was legitimately frightening. You are getting further and further away from home (Firelink Shrine). How are you going to go back? It is scary. This really forced you to map out the world in your head and use the environment as guidance as to where to go. Eventually you knew Lordran like the back of your hand. When you got back to Firelink Shrine after a big adventure in Blighttown or the Catacombs, it was an incredible sense of relief that simply cannot be replicated when there is fast travel. In the later games, especially in Dark Souls 3 just the abundance of bonfires completely destroys this sense of danger the world had before.
In Demon's Souls the health reduction mechanic was not simply there to screw over the players. It was there to evoke a sense of dread and tension in the player. If you were in human form in the world, it was genuinely dangerous and nerve-wrecking. It really incentivized you to play carefully, because you were actually afraid to die, because death had serious consequences. (ruining the world tendency, making the game harder and harder, locking yourself out of Pure White Tendency items, questlines and more). In contrast Dark Souls 2 completely missed the point on this, and the hollowing mechanic is simply there to make the game harder because you lose some maximum health after death. Also all of that can just be solved by popping another Human Effigy which is way easier to come by than in Demon's Souls, and it didn't even solve the problem in Demon's Souls anyway, since World Tendency remained the same.
All of this just comes down to the fact that the majority of gamers nowadays simply don't care about immersion. It is no coincidence that From Software is leaning towards this gameplay of roll and stab basic boss design, fast travel, no consequences for actions, barely any penalty for death anymore, checkpoints at every damn corner. It is successful for them. People nowadays only care about the mechanical aspects of games and not the psychological ones, I bet most people never even think about the latter. Any kind of hassle or inconvenience or interesting mechanic that is there to evoke certain "negative" emotions such as tension or dread, are deemed terrible hassles by the community. They just want to get to the next rollspam boss and get the next shiny loot. These games have simply turned into fight big boss 164 times experiences. It is a real shame. The lore is cryptic not to match the theme of mystery and danger the world encompasses, but simply for the sake of it. Same for the NPC's fates.
From Software needs a hard reset. Elden Ring was a good game despite its big flaws, but the series is desperately stretching itself too far at this point. They need new ideas.
From Software clearly found their gold goose formula and are sticking too it, but that's not something you can really blame them for I suppose. When you haphazardly rehash ideas with new coats of paint and they only get more popular with each release there is very little reason to stop. As someone who loves open world games, one of my favorites being Morrowind, it irks me a bit when I read discussion about Elden Ring and people raving about how the open world design is "revolutionary" and "game changing" when it fails basic world building concepts present in a 20 year old game. Like you point about Dark Souls 1's lack of fast travel, Morrowind's fast travel is very limited. You can only fast travel through predetermined routes via terrestrial creatures called Silt Striders, Mages Guild teleportation, or boating services. The player had to learn how to navigate the island of Vvardenfell which added greatly to the immersion of the game. Caveats existed in the way of Intervention scrolls, but you had no real control to which shrine they sent you to. This and a plethora of other reasons including: fleshed out history, fleshed out racial culture in and outside Vvardenfell, numerous villages and cities with their own secrets to discover, and crazy lore is why Morrowind is still fondly discussed 20 years later.
On the flip side, Elden Ring is another romp as the Chosen Undead through another Lordan to kill the big bad guy because someone else told you to do it while having no ability to interact with anything or anyone other than killing because it's a Dark Souls game. While some parts of the Lands Between are visually striking and very pretty, it still does not offer much outside of combat and is essentially one big arena rather than a 'world'. As someone whose been playing video games for a long time, on some level it irks me a little to see videos with millions of views calling From Software's rehashed ideas "revolutionary" and how they "changed everything". It genuinely feels as if games that came out before 2009 simply do not exist anymore.
To make a point, 15 years ago today Ninja Gaiden 2 came out on the Xbox 360, easily one of the most difficult and brutal Stylish Action games ever released. However, an ARPG with incredibly sluggish, shallow, and barebones combat became the poster-child for difficulty in video games. That is the power of marketing combined with the reality of millions of new video game players coming into the 7th console generation. To Matt's point, why would I not just play something like Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, or Monster Hunter if From Software is going to continue to make bootleg action games? I don't think Melania was the hardest boss fight of 2022. She's difficult, yeah, but Rodin from Bayonetta 3 I found to be far more difficult. A large part due to Bayonetta 3 being a pure action game. There are no builds, there is no coop, and the fight itself has its own restrictions to increase the difficulty further like no healing items. The pace of the fight is also significantly faster and Rodin can and will kill you from full health in the blink of an eye if you aren't on top of your game.
To me the Souls games have run their course, I don't think From Software is able to provide games like Demon's or Dark Souls 1 anymore whether it's due to running out of ideas or a shift in their philosophy. In my eyes, you'd never get something like Sif from modern From Software. If modern From Software made Dark Souls 1 Sif would mutate into some kind of horrific meat creature, grab all the swords on Artorias' grave, and start spinning at you like a helicopter to start phase two of the boss fight asking Artorias to forgive him. Even NPC questlines have become predictable to a point. It makes it difficult to form connections with characters when you know they're going to die anyway, what's the point? Solaire stuck with people due to Dark Souls still being unpredictable at the time, seeing a character you formed a bond with fall so far from what he once was had an impact. It's impossible to recreate Solaire today because you expect him to die, because NPCs largely always die because it's a Dark Souls game.
@@viewtiful1015 I completely agree, particularly in regards to the action gameplay. What I always loved about the first two Souls games was how they made you inexperienced and clumsy in the face of overwhelming odds. You had to observant and cautious, not hyper-skilled or completely familiar with the enemies' movesets.
It's like Matt said, it places you in the position of a novice adventurer, and lets you experience the atmosphere from your character's eyes.
No games have ever made me feel more like a Knight Errant looking for glory, a Novice Mage in search of knowledge, or a Devout Priest trying to make the world a better place than Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls, including much more in depth or story heavy RPG's.
The very beginning of Elden Ring, skulking through the woods trying to ambush or sneak past enemies I was too weak to fight came close to replicating this, but I quickly encountered that feeling of 'big arenas' that you described.
In the first two games (and Bloodborne, to a lesser extent) I felt as though the normal world was just outside the bounds of the game.
Bolitaria was sensibly arrayed and encased by demon fog, the objective was to stop this spreading to the rest of the world. Of course villages and mills and ordinary life existed beyond, it was a logical conclusion.
Lordran was less sensibly arrayed, but travelling on foot gave it a sense of scale, and the constant references to outside lands like Carim and Astora painted a picture of a huge fantasy realm, all of which was affected by the linking of the fire.
Instead of the feeling like a decayed and dangerous pocket of a world which was receiving crusades and expeditions from far away lands, The Lands Between felt like a big Fortnite island entirely populated by zombies. Where was the normalcy, the background of my character? What could I hope for at the end of this adventure? It's hard to feel invested in a world populated by people who are 99% mad, and where the only sane ones have nebulous origins and are almost exclusively encountered in an external pocket dimension.
It's a shame, From Software's games keep getting more impressive in scale, and more bland in flavour. I hate to criticise Elden Ring because it really does feel like an immense project, but I can't see much interesting in said project.
The only thing I can help but think about From Software is "Oh well, they made two really great games.", and while it's a shame that it seems like we won't get that again, more than anything else I'm just glad that they were made in the first place.
@@viewtiful1015As much as I really enjoyed Elden Ring and all of their other Souls games, I agree that the formula has definitely reached it's limit. Miyazaki has talked about having other directors make their own games, so hopefully they'll start branching out to make some unique experiences like Demons Souls was back then. In my opinion, they were sort of going in that direction with Deracine and Sekiro and Miyazaki is directing another game that apparently doesn't fit with the usual Action RPG stuff that they do. Also considering they pivoted to Armored Core after the sheer success of Elden Ring, and it's being directed by Yamamura (lead combat designer for Sekiro), I'm pretty excited for whatever Fromsoft does in the future.
Lack of consequences in Elden Ring is one of the most jarring things. At one point you can join the Recusants, a group that is implacably opposed to the Erdtree and Roundtable Hold and whose mission is to assassinate tarnished. You would expect that this would cause a rift where the Roundtable hold would kick you out but in reality it doesn't matter at all and no one in the Roundtable Hold even acknowledges that you've done this. Another big choice is the Frenzied Flame, where accepting it will cause Melina to abandon you. Since Melina is necessary to burn the Erdtree this should force you to find an alternate path to getting past the Erdtree's thorns. Instead it's just the exact same path with you instead of Melina doing the burning. I'm not expecting CRPG levels of depth here but it would be nice if any of your choices made any difference at all.
This is exactly what happened to Assassin's Creed. AC1 was bold, experimental and had unique ideas that were not universally appealing. It's successor abandons some of those ideas and streamlines things while refining to a T. Game receives overwhelming success and acclaim, leading to a refusal to deviate from what is now the norm. AC2 is praised while AC1 is seen as outdated and an inferior older brother, rarely recognized for it's unique qualities that are still unlike a lot of games even today.
It's just the matter of gaming now being dominated by a casual audience. Anything unconventional is immediately seen as bad and unmarketable. Triple A Games have to tick a certain amount of boxes or else they aren't even considered. For example, open world games must have fast travel or else it will be seen as a chore to play. The game must a ridiculous amount of content or else it will be accused of having an "empty world." (Look no further than Elden Ring's incessant amount of samey dungeons and boss arenas)
I watched this again after finishing my elden ring dlc. I got to say, After all these years, this is still the best game critic video.
"The most reasonable line of thought is that the arrow will have a certain amount of travel-time, so if you change direction after you hear the shot you'll be safe. Wrong. The arrow magically curves in mid-air because this is no longer a series where you outsmart your opponent; it's a series where you press the roll button at the right time."
A perfect thesis statement, reduced to three succinct sentences.
Now nearly every archer character in this Elden Ring has arrows that literally curve in a way you can see
you can stop the arrows by talking to the guy who shoots them, but of course he didn't mention it since it wouldn't fit to his narrative
@@ehrtdaz7186 It's easy to see how that's a contrived solution, though, much like the curving arrows are a contrived means to make that section challenging.
@@siphillis what?
@@ehrtdaz7186 You have to run through that area before you can talk to him. But even if you didn't have to, it wouldn't invalidate the point, which is that something that should work (feinting to throw off aim) doesn't actually work. IIRC though, even as far back as Dark Souls 1 there were physics-bending arrows, most notably the famous Anor Londo archers.
Jesus Christ this video is essentially prophetic given what Elden Ring has ended up as. From Software essentially make games that have more in common with Guitar Hero than Demon Souls at this point and that's such a shame
I love FromSofts games but oh my god this is the best comment ever, so fucking true lol.
Remember "Sekiro is a rythm game"
@@Lastninjaxoxoxoxox I actually don't hate this about Sekiro just for the fact that it's at least different. There's a lot I dislike about Sekiro, and the final boss alone was just hair-pulling enough to make me never replay the game, but I came away from every boss feeling like a boss myself.
Of course, that doesn't really translate to Elden Ring, because the bosses have evolved (as they have continuously done with each Dark Souls) yet the player character's abilities have hardly changed.
@@lorangemagnifique3001 And that's fine if that's the type of bosses you prefer, it seems in the community a lot of ppl shares this notion which is why they want "learn the moveset" bosses and not so called "gimmick" bosses. But you can get the same feeling from a boss-rush game. Infact they might even have more fleshed out combat than the souls series and makes you feel like even more of a boss. I'd like to think the souls series went for something different, atleast in the beginning.
Unfortunately I don't even share this feeling of feeling like a boss. When I beat "learn the moveset" boss #10 in a row (like there were so many of in ds3) I don't feel like a boss, I feel like I just wasted my time learning this AIs moveset with no other real experience to be had from this.
@@lorangemagnifique3001 tbf, sekiro is an *extremely* sastisfying system to learn and master and it's a different IP with a different approach. Elden Ring has literally no excuse since it's basically just Dark Souls.
This video has only became more relevant with Elden Ring, and more relevant again with the DLC.
They’re still good games, but I’m sad at the direction they’ve gone in, and what’s been lost 😢
The DLC really made me stop in my tracks when I went up against that Rellana knight. She's actually one of the easier bosses in the DLC but I just couldnt muster up the motivation to learn another flurry of attack patterns. It's like whats the motivation to continue at this point? The story is a big random mesh of old fromsoft ideas with no clear connection or overall theme to tie it all together (le dragons, le aliens, le gods, le end of the world), the characters are more bland than ever before and are mostly just remakes of npcs youve seen already, the loot is a mess with that stupid crafting system like my inventory is so god damn full of stuff I will never ever use in my life. The art and animation are cream of the crop as ever but man I just feel like a geezer playing these new fromsoft games, I don't get it anymore. It's really just become a rhythm game for people who feel they're too fancy for osu
To be fair to Elden Ring, there are many things it does really well. But the base game bosses are amongst the its weakest aspects.
However, while the DLC bosses might still be "memorize roll timing and hit back", at least they're better balanced.
Same. I really enjoy the other from games that use the same formula but in a different format (bloodborne, sekiro, AC6). The release of the DLC marks the last from game I'll ever buy, been a loyal customer since demons souls. I now can pirate them with a clean conscience.
@devildante9 you can but you will never have a clean conscience. Don't lie to yourself to convince yourself that what you're doing is OK lmao
@@Oknahidwinnarc.
There is one unforgiving thing from Demon's Souls: we can't wear the Penetrator armor
omg yes
Armors designed to appear on massive imposing bosses have no business being available for the player
You're not as cool as Ornstein when you wear his set, you look like an ugly midget
Nautilus makes the art more revered
IKR I'd kill for that set even just for fashion souls!!!! T.T
@@nautilus2612 same for all the artorias running around lol
I return after the release of Shadows of the Erdtree. From has fallen deeper into samey rollslop boss design.
Yeah I saw the first boss and her 15 hit combo and just sighed. I'll still play it, but I'm a little sad. Just like elden ring, it'll be good, but not great. Looking back over all these years, the high water marks of FromSoft have been Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Sekiro.
every fight is literally exactly the same. It sucks because the level design is still excellent and the art direction is unparalleled at this point, but if you've fought one Shadows of the Erdtree boss (or enemy for that matter), you've fought them all. People meme about the combat of ER because it's supposedly so hard (it's not, it's just tedious), but it's easily the worst part of the game.
@@tweeeeeex The level design is half the layout and half the enemy placement and design. Elden rings Mobs are total trash. The game and DLC suffers from an issue of "if you actually have to engage with mobs rather than steamroll them, you are too underpowered to beat the boss"
@@Frog_Cat_ If you keep buying them, they'll keep making them. Money is the only language these publishers and companies understand. Vote with your wallet. I'm not buying the DLC or another FromSoft game until they've shown they can branch out more. Sekiro was great but is now a dead end.
@@Frog_Cat_ You could always look even further back. There's a number of high water marks pre-Demon's Souls, though what precisely those are will vary by taste.
Anyone here after they announced night reign hero multi-player elden ring... Damn
oh yeah from should just make the same game for 20 years you’re right
Yea that’s literally what they’ve been doing. That’s his point
@@jonnyalec5646i changed my mind since I made this comment im actually cautiously optimistic about nigh reign this could be fromsoft chance to break out of the formula and to improve the combat and online on later games thanks to night reign. But i have 2 concerns. The main thing im concerned about is how streamlined nightreign might end up. they have revealed that there isn't any character stats building instead hero classes and that there isn't any fall damage. i hope that both of these mechanics have been removed for realy good reasons not to just streamline the game or too make things faster because of the battle royal storm. And that there isn't any more mechanics removed or streamlined for the game. The other concern is reusing content im fine with fromsoft reusing assets but reuseing too many enemies bosses and characters from previous games is gonna end being disappointing in my opinion. And i hope that some of the reused bosses and content are optional. Again I'm cautiously optimistic with night reign i hope that of the game turns out great that fromsoft carries it's improvements and lessons to the later games
The thing about improvements not being carried over game to game starts to make a lot more sense when you remember that all these games have had overlapping development cycles.
And some of them different publishers, with potentially varying levels of ownership over IP and software implementation
@@MikePatterson8831 Bandai-Namco has got to be a big part of the problem at this point. The games made under Sony and Activision publishing (Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro) are far more cohesive and consistent than the Bamco-published ones (Dark Souls 1/2/3 and Elden Ring).
i jsut miss being surprised. The most surprised i was with elden ring dlc was the shaman village. Becasue it was a chill empty village with a soft tune and had nothing in it outside a tree and one item. The contrast remain in my mind until the end of the game, nothing else did. that area might not be impressive in other FS games but in elden ring it was enough for make appreciate how different it was to the rest of the game. that Nothing left me more impressed than the rest of areas in the rest of the game.
In a game that’s so relentlessly focused on just shoving enemy encounter after enemy encounter down your throat, it was an insane breath of fresh air to just have this environmental set piece that’s completely divorced of any combat engagement whatsoever.
Granted, they make you fight a copy pasted tree sentinel duo before you go up there, but the immediate vibe of the area almost drowns that out
What's crazy is that is what everyone has said. Shaman village gets brought up as the most impactful moment of every review I've seen. People aren't talking about the bosses they took 30 tries to master or the caatles they cleared, its the one moment they were presented with just a beautiful scene where they didn't have to fight anything
I was thoroughly surprised by its level design, Shadow Keep and that main region around it was mindblowing to explore just like DS1 was. But I agree with you, I wish this sense of surprise was also present in the rest of the game.
@@iago9711So Matthew is pretty much correct in making the point that the best part of these games is the experiential aspects/contrast with other elements and quite a lot of people seem to agree based on the fact that Shaman village is one of the most memorable parts of the dlc for many.
Though, there are just as many people who think every moment to moment gameplay should be about simplistic combat and nothing more.
I'm enjoying the Elden Ring DLC, mostly for the exploration and lore, but I couldn't help but think of this video after the third spammy roll-catchy boss. In Dark Souls 3 I was already feeling fatigued by that style of boss, but at least there only 60% of the fight time was taken up by rolling. I felt they truly jumped the shark with the endgame of Elden Ring, where bosses like Maliketh would spam 15 attacks in a row that could two-shot you, and where the opening afterward felt barely long enough for a single heal. Well, if that was jumping the shark, the new DLC is double jumping it, and I haven't even attempted the final boss yet.
I couldn't agree more. It's frustrating for people to say "Souls has always been about hard bosses!" while failing to realize the other 90% of the game exists. I finished the DLC and was left with the same feeling, just completely boring and dull.
@@otomeplus I feel the frustrating thing is that Fromsoft can still clearly make really fun and engaging areas. Am yet to finish ER DLC but just went through the Abyssal Woods. Area was great. The developer notes foreshadowing the danger, finally seeing and the testing the limits of the watcher(?) enemies was all great. Then it finishes with another flashy but mechanically similar boss.
I return to this video with a new comment because with Elden Ring DLC this video still rings true, especially with the bosses. So many people right now as I post this are arguing about the difficulty of the DLC and its bosses. My main issue with the bosses more so is that it's more of the same old shit. I'm just not finding the "learn pattern, dodge at right second, deal with the bosses bullshit spamming of infinite stamina and two hit kills" engaging anymore. I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I beat them, I just feel like I pulled an annoying pain away from my body.
I really hope whatever FromSoft does next is something new, something that will ignite that Demons Souls energy again with new ideas and just subverting expectations. However, due to Elden Ring being such a huge success, I sadly doubt they'll be willing to do it and just make another Soulslike and critics and people will give it more 10s. Because apparently now you can't say any criticism of these games anymore, when I remember a time when people would regularly shit on these games. But while I, along with many others saw what was special about them, it feels FromSoft might have forgotten.
FromSoft excel at their art, level design and just core function as working as a team. But now it feels like they're kinda playing stuff safe and expected and I never thought that would really happen.
@@tweeeeeex We're left with a game that is aimed at pleasing a large audience and narrow minded fandom rather than take risks and doing something interesting/potentially alienating.
A Mathew quote went through my head all through the dlc “so many times it felt like the design team asked “how can we make this fight difficult” when what they should have asked is “how can we make this fight interesting””
@@brandonthomas6602 EXACTLY. This was also hitting me during the main game. That said, I really like Elden Ring, but I along with many others have played these games for 10+ years. Had time to reflect back and think on stuff. The people whos first one of these games was Elden Ring I feel are the most toxic and not willing to take any amount of criticism of their favorite Elden Ring.
They're afraid of alienating the "muh hardcore" fanbase they've attracted with the prepare to die marketing. Their biggest fear is people saying their games are too easy so they have to up the ante every single time.
@Jurglenuts if they insist on making the bosses more action focused, then honestly I can say yeah. Give another game similar to BB and/or Sekiro.
Agree with so much of this after trying Elden Ring. I'm just not enjoying Fromsoft design anymore. Unfortunately for me, Fromsoft has continued with their enemy design of the last few games, and go for SPECTACLE and SPEED over everything else. There are obviously people who want that, who want constant action and to constantly be pushed to their mechanical limits. I like that SOMETIMES. I like variation. I like fights to feel contextually appropriate. Not every being in a world would like be a whirling dervish that never lets up.
Maybe there's an older warrior that can do bursts of attacks but needs lots of time to rest. Maybe there's an animal that needs to be tricked into revealing a vulnerable spot. Maybe there's a wizard that you need to get behind by running through a series of buildings or rooms, so it's a test of your memory of the combat arena. Maybe the fight is more for an emotional response and not a test of mechanical skill.
Maybe, just maybe, the overarching design goals for a boss don't have to be: will people die a bunch before winning? Was it constant adrenaline?
Good, it's not just me. Elden Ring has such a unique world to explore but it plays it so safe with the boss fights. I'm at the end of the game now, right before the final fight and I'm just sick of it. Almost every boss feels copy and pasted with a different skin and some actually are just that.
The problem is that Souls combat is basically solved, so any boss that isn't a twitch reaction test full of tricky timings is going to be laughably easy.
@@mattweber2512 Flamelurker, Fume Knight, Sir Alonne and Darklurker are still hard even if you know what they do so I disagree with that assessment.
But if it is solved, then why not dramatically change how these games are played? Why not do what FF7R did and alter the combat?
@@theatheistbear3117 I agree, that's what they should do. I thought Sekiro was a step in this direction, but Elden Ring seems to have regressed back to the Souls mean.
@@mattweber2512 I personally hated Sekiro but you are right. It was very different from the other games.
This feeling more relevant nowadays in the discussion surrounding Elden Ring and Erdtree DLC, well is too poisoned by "git gud" and "Skill issue" to even have a conversation.
Why did such a disscusion came up in the first place you think? I don't think it's the problem of the players, especially if it wasn't that present in the past games (not in that scale) I think Elden Rings focus on absurd extreme fast bosses (while the framework is still basically Dark Souls) accompanied by the whiplash that a boss takes either 10+ hours to learn (last DLC boss as worst offender) or just 10 minutes because, the mimic tear will carry you, of course will create a gulf, where the player who "suffered" like in the past games won't feel respected by the game, feeling disappointed at players basically avoiding the premise of fighting at all but instead just cheese, but of course this was enabled by the game.
So I see the problem that Miyazaki is no longer able to uphold that "shared experience" he once talked about because the spectrum of the experience varies in such absurd degrees, especially since there is such a half-hearted focus on dungeon-crawling, the only true roadblocks are bosses themselves..
Exactly this. There's a point in his Demon's Souls commentary where he calls DeS more a game of knowledge and tactics than mechanical skill. I just have to wonder where the ball was dropped along the way where now with SotE the expected way to play is "beat your head on the brick wall until you memorize every move"
@@zetsu8ou "I just have to wonder where the ball was dropped along the way"
Like Matt said in his video, it all started with the Artorias of the Abyss DLC. Great DLC in its own right, but its bosses have become the copy/paste template for 90% of the bosses in every game after. Dark Souls 2 sealed the series' fate.
@@Ageleszly Miyazaki has been the reason why the later has less focus on interesting exploration where you can think outside of the box to solve a good way forward to more now game such as eldern are just turn up to eleven boss runs where your just dodging 100 percent of time. You cant use your environment to help you defeat the boss along with bosses don't have any interesting mechanics to show a weakness that you can use them again them in your favor. It literally learn the move set hope that bosses aggressive tracking does not screw you over by making the camera spaz out. I think the reason shadow of the erdtree got negative reception that it did because it show how much from soft has been relying on same boss design all this time and people in a passive way are starting to realize it.
This actually isn't very relevant today. The people who usually say "git gud" ("souls veterans") are a good chunk of people complaining about ER and the DLC. Most of the well poisoning now is coming from people saying ER and the DLC are 'too difficult' and thus are bad. Those same "souls veterans."
You don't actually want a conversation. You want to complain and to say whatever game fromsoft creates these days is bad because it's new/different/hard/etc. More well poisoning. That's what it boils down to.
IMO there's still a lot of quirky and unique fights in the rest of the games, but it's obvious where the focus lies. Something like being able to knock down the Iron Golem off the arena, Duke's Dear Freia having two heads on each side as weak points, High Lord Wolnir being basically an advancing wall of death (which has a different death animation if you don't hit his weakpoints), and all the other quirks the bosses in Bloodborne have (like being able to stun Gascoigne with the music box, or The Which of Hemwick being basically powerless if you fight her with no insight).
I do hope that Elden Ring bring some of that back. A good balance is always good.
Sekiro perfected the "quirky" bosses, as seen in the dragon fight. And i guess ER will be similar to Sekiro in many ways.
@Mohito Non-alco Sekiro was a bland and boring game.
The Levels were astonishingly easy because of the weak grunt enemies and the stealth + mobility systems at hand. The world was also extremely dull. I remember playing through the first part of the game, wondering when the interesting areas and varied enemies would come. Then when I got to the abandoned dungeon, I thought I would finally enter a new interesting location. However, this section was incredibly short and led to the Senpou Temble instead, another boring unvaried location.
The bosses were hard, in the sense that you had to press buttons in a specific pattern. Matthewmatosis mentions in this video, if he wanted action, he would play a better action game, but at this point you might as well rather want to play Osu!. It also continued the trend mentioned in this video. If ER "will be very similar to Sekiro" it will be as disappointing as that game. I can't help it but have low expectations for Elden Ring, given that I doubt they will stop following the trend.
@@Qlaid_ omegalul i feel sorry for you if you think that sekiro was boring
@@Qlaid_ but they said they're going back to more DS shit for ER
@Yujiro Hanma nice bait bro
Here's a wonderful quote i found in regards to the DeS Remake and the overall modern view of videogame remakes:
"This kind of flippant treatment of original works as if they’re just inherently “not good enough” for contemporary tastes just lends credence to the idea that video games are not art. If they’re this disposal and easily replaceable, they’re nothing but toys."
Great quote.
I do have one counter argument. The same can be said for any piece of art. Someone can "remaster" Starry Nights or make an animation look better with new frames or computer animation. Literally anything that has been made before can be remastered.
@@HonsHon this is painfully ignorant.
Starry nights was made with clear and full understanding of the medium, any alterations would be one that the author did not want to or could not make.
Same with animations.
Akira for exemple, plays with frames per second to add emphasis and such.
A 60 fps remaster would absolutely destroy the movie.
Hell, rendering toy story at an extremely high resolution might show the inner working of shaders and textures to a point so severe it breaks immersion.
@@HonsHon obviously they CAN be remastered. But the quote insinuates that doing so destroys some artistic merits of the work.
Eh, I dunno man. That quote makes sense when you think of art like paintings, writings, and music but that’s just because those pieces are usually expressions from one single person.
It doesn’t make sense to “remake” the Mona Lisa because what good would that do? It would just be another person trying to copy a painting and would lead to a separate piece of art. When you switch to collaborative works like movies or games it becomes different, because of all the different facets that could fail to express the original intention in the way they wanted.
Either way, you’re not destroying art by deciding to remake a movie or a game. The original art still exists, the remake is a separate piece of art expressing similar things but using the advances in technology and technique that came after.
I feel sorry for Demon's Souls. The game was dubbed a failure and had very low expectations from the developers while it was on project. And despite its surprising success, the game was heavily overshadowed by other PS3 titles during its time, and its successors in the later years. I have met and played with, many Souls fans who have not even heard of Demon's Souls, and only credit on its successors. To this day, I still wish FromSoft can shift their focus on the game that started it all.
It's world was just that much more magical, felt more tragic. Maybe it was because you entered the world right after tragedy and everything looked like Order had just recently fallen apart.
In Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 it seems like the new way of the world has long been established. You arrive centuries after all the important stuff has happened, to the point that even the big bads have hollowed away. It feels more abandoned, but not in a good way. I guess the lack of changes from World Tendency also give that feeling.
For what it's worth I bought a PS3 to play Demon's Souls back in the day. For me it was the system seller.
I was super stoked for Dark Souls when it came out after that, but even that isn't as good as the original I don't think.
To be fair, a lot of that can be blamed to the fact that Demon's Souls was a PS3 exclusive in a time where the PS3 was still playing catch up to the 360 and the PC was emerging again. Not only that but Sony was afraid to advertise it, sort of what they did to Gravity Rush this generation. And the cherry on top of the pie was that Dark Souls 1 released a year and half after so most people who heard a few positive things about Demon's Souls just went straight to the sequel instead, especially 360 and PC players for obvious reasons.
It was hardly dubbed a failure. When it was released it was getting high review scores in a lot of gaming magazines/websites, with a Metacritic of 88. Even IGN gave it a 9.4/10. It may not have taken off in the mainstream like dark souls, but it was critically acclaimed from the start,
It's weird how people mistake difficulty for depth in souls combat
Difficulty has a lot of depth when your enjoyment from it comes from gatekeeping and bragging rights.
And it's weirder still when Dark Souls kinda has a pitiful lack of difficulty. It's telling about a game's balance when before you start the game, everyone tells you which builds to avoid due to them trivialising and breaking the game. Deaths only get less and less meaningful too, as the more rapidly you die, the fewer souls you build up between deaths, lowering the incentive to avoid dying. As such, there's no real penalty to endlessly dying to work out a boss' attack patterns, memorising them outside of the boss room and then steamrolling them once you're there. The game's difficulty comes purely from how well you can rote learn a very basic rhythm, effectively.
It's the reason I prefer to make a clear distinction between "challenge" and "difficulty". To me, "challenge" is how much I have to understand the game's mechanics, the current situation, be observant, etc., while "difficulty" is just how mechanically hard something is; i.e. how narrow the window to press the roll button at the right time is and stuff like that. Souls games, especially the later ones, are pure difficulty with very little in the way of challenge.
my biggest issue with souls has always been the conversation surrounding it. I dislike that its considered "the hard series" when that really isnt the case. Souls games push discovery and the players actions to the forefront and make you feel like you are in its world more intensely than any other game series I've seen. With that sense of immersion comes a sense that you have to react to the world in a realistic and not half assed behavior. In short, I feel that you cant make a compelling souls experience without it being punishing, but that isnt what I think the games' biggest emphasis is.
@@matthewmuir8884 I find this seperation to be somewhat limiting with certain games. After reading your comment I was trying to think of games I played that fall into either category...one I was stuck with was Megaman games...are they more challenging or difficult? They (the bosses specifically) are notorious for having a set pattern you have to memorize to beat them...sounds kinda like dark souls, except sometimes they are pretty cheap...forcing you to analyse the nature of thier attack patterns and the guns you have before you memorize the exact attack pattern via muscle memory. So in a sense its a bit of both...but I guess that depends on where you draw the arbritrary line between "strategy" and "skill" since objectively strategy is just skill in slow motion. (People who perfer strategy games over skill tend to like taking their time to plan things out where as skill is usually the opposite.) This doesn't even take into account reacting to things...what if your reacting to things that you aren't used to? Then its adaptation? What if a boss was so well designed that it started to change its pattern the second you adapt? Is that more strategy or skill then?
I suppose not being pertentious about your defenition and just looking at the general message your saying...I guess I can conclude (with the dark souls games anyways) that the problem is that the combat inofitself is not very complicated. This lack of complication prevents nuanced "challenge" as you put it so since its not improved upon you either rely on gimmicks or design the bosses with skill in mind. The solution would be to make the combat more in depth so that there's a more balanced mix.
Maybe the souls games are just 3D megaman games in design philosophy now that I think about it...hmm...
I never really understood this video until Shadows of the Erdtree. I'm finally getting bored of just learning roll times and punish windows.
Try Demon's Souls, you won't regret it. Just approach it with an open mind.
This mad lad bodied Elden Ring 4 years before it existed.
So is the game a disappointment? I didn’t buy it because I really didn’t want another medieval fantasy game from FromSoft anyways. I was very satisfied with that ending with Dark Souls 3 six years ago.
@@SaberRexZealot Someone else on here said "peak 6/10" and I'm inclined to agree. It's probably better than a lot of games in its genre, but I fucking hate open-world games and it was NOT able to overcome that for me, so yeah. Haven't been this disappointed by a game since Xenoblade Chronicles X.
I think if I'd waited til the game was on sale for like half off and we'd gotten past the point where the entire internet was gushing about it simultaneously, I wouldn't feel nearly as bad about my purchase.
I also think that if it were back at the start of the pandemic, where I didn't have a job, unemployment was good, and I had absolutely no social obligations or artistic aspirations, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to keep my hands occupied while I watched youtube videos on a separate monitor. I've spent a lot of time doing just that with other, worse games (MGSV and FFXV come to mind). But I also don't really remember my experience with those games fondly, and it's sad to think of FromSoft making a "podcast game" as opposed to something that actually engaged me.
@@SaberRexZealot It's pretty much what everyone expected, Dark Souls 3 but open world. It's not bad by any means but I am kind of baffled by the immense praise it's getting. It's like... come on guys, we all played this game years ago. Back then the areas were connected by a hub world or in a sort of Metroidvania style rather than by big open fields, but otherwise it's the same thing.
@@SaberRexZealot you were listening to the video, right? it's basically the same old and more of it, as well as, a "roll at the right time to win" simulator.
This would be fine by me, but where I think FromSoftware dropped the ball is on Matthew's criticism of the combat forgetting the improvements of the past, like, locking Rallying behind a great rune, or forgetting that Trick weapons ever existed, or magic still being very much a glass cannon build, ranged and defensive builds being very limited compared to melee combat, or other stuff like this, as well as the combat needing to grow and evolve with the times, instead of remaining largely the same as it was in 2009, with only something as simple as a weapon art added in that really wasn't even that good or utilized that well.
This is an especially big problem because of them trying to reach more challenging aspects and the way this game formula is going, it's heading straight into a wall, they're going to eventually reach a breaking point because that difficulty has a limit and that limit is called the human limit, ie, what most humans are theoretically capable of.
Didn't think I'd see my favorite Arc The Lad reviewer here. It's amazing how well a lot of these points apply to Elden Ring.
Coming back to say this video ages like a fine wine with each new Fromsoft release.
Yup
Yeah
Nope, Git Gud
@@devildolphin2102 what? Lol
@@devildolphin2102 the games are all prefty easy tbh. but they have been getting progressively worse
After having watched your entire Legend of Zelda review series, your critique of Dark Souls 2, and now this, you are my absolute favorite reviewer on youtube. Not only does it feel like your reviews touch on every single important element in the game, but you always manage to touch on things ive forgotten about, or made me rethink something I didn't realize was so important to me. Also, sometimes, I didn't have the same negative/positive outlook on something you did, but I can ALWAYS understand where your coming from thanks to well implemented evidence and/or footage.
Finally, your way of stating or emphasizing certain points is remarkable.
The best example I can give is your phrase towards the end of this video, "enjoyed by everyone, but loved by no one."
Such a concise and eloquent way to sum of the potential negative side of mass appeal.
DS3 (and dare I say BB) is when the series went on a completely different direction.
Playing DeS and then DS3 feels like they've been developed with completely different philosophies despite having the same "Souls" moniker.
The lack of warping in Dark Souls 1 can seem tedious and inconvenient, but it makes for memorable situations. When I went for the platinum trophy I got to Anor Londor in new game plus only to realize I didn't kindle any of the bonfires up to 20 in the previous run. So I had to go backwards through Sen's Fortress to go kill Pinwheel. It also made Homeward Bones more impactful. I would purposefully avoid resting at bonfires so I could warp back to Firelink when I achieved certain goals, like defeating Sif or ringing the Blighttown bell. When I made it to new game Plus 2 I needed to get the Sunlight Medals from Anor Londo for the sunbro covenant. I opted to not use any bonfires after resting at Parish so I could Bone back with the Medals. It made the rafters in Anor Londo some of the most stressful moments in gaming I've ever had. Yes I did fall from them once and had to do Sen's fortress again.
Why did you have to do Sen's Fortress again? Did you not open the elevator shortcut with the cage key?
yes, I feel like I know the map of DS1 like the back of my hand, but not as much in the later games because i feel exploration was punished more lightly with the greater amount of bonfires and instant fast travel
Demon's souls bosses work so well because they seem to be designed concept first. Probably as a result of it being the first game in a new series where they weren't always sure what the final gameplay could be like. You can reduce almost every boss down to an abstraction of what it's like to fight them and you find that concept works almost anywhere. This a list of demons souls boss concepts, but imagine I'm describing a D&D encounter or even a scene from a movie instead of a video game.
>a blind giant that needs to use sound to find the hero
>a large creature protected by a swarm of smaller versions of itself, with the twist being that the big one is actually helpless on it's own
>a flying creature that takes almost fighter jet like strafing runs at the hero
>a 25 foot tall suit of armor held together by magic essence which can be made to leak out of the suit by opening up the armor in it's thinnest areas
Notice how almost every boss in demon's can be beaten, in a wholly practical sense without rolling. Demon's can be beaten by a normal player without using a single invincibility frame. Compare that to so many later bosses that do some big string of attacks only when you're close enough that you can't just run out of the way, and worse yet the only thing that makes them unique from the last guy is what that string looks like.
Yeah it feels like there's a samey element to a lot of boss fights in later games. There are no clever tricks or unique strategies for beating a lot of those bosses in the newer games.
It does seem like some of the bosses in Demon's Souls were designed with more of a D & D mindset.
@@asiamatron If you are talking Old School D&D, then yes.
It’s funny because the Souls series has pretty much turned into what D&D is now. Elden Ring is basically 5e at this point. There is no real strategy to it.
@@theatheistbear3117 Yeah sure looks that way.
@@asiamatron It’s funny that both franchises went into the same route. They kept the same basics but didn’t equate that the game they were making was completely different.
@@theatheistbear3117 Yeah that happens sometimes. Both franchises are so different but took the same route.
So many people missing the point of the video. Try reading the description.
"Some thoughts on the merits of Demon's Souls."
He is NOT saying that Demon Souls is the best entry, he is explaining it's merits, while showing some of the other games' faults.
Well said.
But he's saying not being held captive by your level is a fault.
Yeah but in a really one minded way that can come of quite whiny...
He is wrong about somethings like defensive mechanics not being used in boss fights outside of roll. Yes it can be true about dark souls 2 and up but not 1. High poise, shields, parrying are great ways to fight bosses alongside roll. I have a better chance against o n s with shield and high poise than rolling the whole time cause I rarely get a hit in that way and gwen I parry the life out of em.
True, but it is the best entry. I know I’d argue that, personally, even if he isn’t.
Matt was once asked on Twitter whether he's aware of any game other than Demon's Souls that excels at "outsmarting your opponent", being "mechanically unpredictable", etc. His answer was Rain World.
I second this recommendation. Rain World not only scratches the same itch as DeS, it manages to raise the bar far beyond what any FromSoftware game has reached. In many ways, Rain World is the anti-Elden Ring that many people in the comments crave. I also highly recommend the Downpour expansion, which masterfully manages to avoid the separateness that plagues countless DLCs (e.g. every Souls expansion), and instead feels like it was always a part of Rain World.
For those who aren't sold on Rain World, Mr. Matosis himself made a video about it that summarizes the appeal without revealing too much. Meanwhile, adventurous players should dive in as blind as possible. Just be sure to pick the Survivor instead of the Monk, and avoid the console versions for now.
Why avoid console version? I bought this recently on ps5 but couldn’t get into it
@@jamesbradley9073 As of this comment, the console ports are in a less than stable state. When Rain World v1.9 was initially released on consoles, the update clearly wasn't ready yet. Old save files didn't get carried over to the new version, most sound effects didn't work properly, crashes were common, and a ton of other nasty bugs were introduced. And that's just the base game; the Downpour expansion which released alongside v1.9 was even more unstable. Heck, Expedition Mode's progression system straight up did not work at all, rendering much of the mode unplayable.
Since then, there's been additional patches that significantly improved the state Rain World on consoles, fixing (or partially fixing) most of the above issues, but the current version (v1.9.13?) still isn't very good. The PlayStation versions specifically have some kind of save corruption issue, though a workaround was added in the form of automatic save data backup/restoration.
Unlike Downpour, the next (and probably final) Rain World expansion, The Watcher, seems like it'll be released on all platforms at launch, so there's definitely going to be an update by then that hopefully fixes the remaining problems that plague the console ports. Until then, I strongly recommend playing Rain World on PC if possible; it's very stable as of v1.9.15.3. However, since you already have the PS5 version, you might as well stick with that if you ever decide to return to Rain World, or perhaps get the PC version during a sale (it's 55% off on GOG right now).
Anyway, in my experience, it took multiple attempts to get into Rain World, though a big part of that was me getting distracted by other things. I made it near the end of the game's first act (1/3) during my first two attempts, only for my third attempt to truly pull me into Rain World from beginning to end. In particular, after I got through a pretty intense section around the start of the second act, I thought "Man, this game is gonna be a favorite for sure", and I was right. While I can't guarantee you'll have a similar experience, I think you should give Rain World another chance or two.
@@MetricGuard thanks for the detailed response! I will def give another go at some point. Will perhaps wait for this 3rd upcoming dlc before heading back in
As I was fighting Promised Consort Radahn in his second phase and watched as he teleported around and spammed obnoxious anime style attacks that shoot light beams everywhere which tank the framerate of the game this video once again popped into my head. You really called it Matthew.
>he teleported around and spammed obnoxious anime style attacks that shoot light beams everywhere
and the best way to avoid this is just....rolling. Its boring, Fromsoft's boss design has been all flash since DS3. They successfully fooled people on thinking their boss design is great because of the art direction, visual flair and flashiness on screen but beneath the surface, the only mechanic you can engage with these bosses is either roll, block, parry then stagger but that's mostly the fault of the game's simplistic combat.
Not just rolling but also jumping! Hey remember jumping, the mechanic that you forgot about when fighting speedy bosses just like how you forgot about backsteps. Both jumping and backsteps had no use in the base game and not even in the previous games but now in this expansion 2 years later they remembered that they exist and didnt bother to teach the player how and when to use it, thanks Fromsoft!
@@JohnKasarinlan Those are actually best avoided by sprinting to one side. They've really upped the ante on this one and have attacks that you dodge by moving instead of hitting circle. There's also an AoE attack that you counter by running out of it instead of rolling. #maximaldepth
@@JohnKasarinlanIf it’s sooo boring why do you buy the game? It’s a very punishing timing simulator that a lot of people enjoy at the end of the day, if you don’t enjoy it then don’t buy it.
@@makia3 Braindead take
This video aged like fine wine. Literally everything you said is correct and still holds true.
The only way we get something like Demon Souls is if Miyazaki leaves the company and joins a bankrupt one.
This video affirmed a lot of my gripes with Shadow of the Erdtree, my biggest being the bosses. Ever since DS3, it feels like Fromsoft have been continually ramping up the ridiculousness of the bosses to the point of it being completely unfun and unintuitive. So many bosses and enemies are completely overtuned and difficult for the sake of the concept. It doesn't matter how many Scadutree Blessings you give the player, the *design* of the enemies and what they do is specifically meant to feel broken. The worst part about the Souls games and its community is the fact that you can't have a genuine discussion on topics like boss and enemy design and difficulty without all of your thoughts and opinions being completely written off as a "skill issue." If we love something we have to be able to criticize it, it's completely ridiculous to not hold Fromsoft accountable for its poor design, but instead blame the player for not being submissive and willing to bash their heads against poor design for the sake of it.
The worst part of the current boss design is having to set your own difficulty. Even Malenia and the absurd DLC bosses are destroyed within minutes by the big cheese. On the other hand playing without magic, summons, and ashes of war puts you in for a 2-3 hour MINIMUM time investment to learn these bosses. Nothing makes a game less immersive and less fun that having to constantly ask yourself if the difficulty you are currently experiencing is the intended amount, or if you need to leave and come back. In the older Dark Souls titles it was super easy to just play the game without worrying about levels and upgrades, you would gather them at the appropriate pace by just playing the game.
@@typicalamerican2164 On top of that, some of the cheese, like mimic tear, cast so slow that bosses like the consort can two shot you before you get it off. People that are trying to play on easy mode will end up dying a bunch just trying to get the item off, then when they do it's an easy win.
The mechanics just feel like a jumbled mess all round.
Demon's Souls boss fights have the creativity of a good Zelda boss, in a game with genuinely dangerous levels leading up to them. It's a big damn shame the series steered toward throwing nothing but fast-paced blenders at the player.
What? No. Zelda wishes it had bosses as creative and unique as Demon's Souls. Are you for real? 90% of Zelda bosses are about shooting a big monster in the eye.
I personally think that the less gimmicky bosses fit the soulsborne franchise better. Demon's Souls bosses to me are always either decent challenges or MASSIVE pushovers (cough leechmonger cough adjudicator)
But instead of getting one or the other type of boss design, I think From should try to balance it out. Get a few good bosses testing your dodging, stamina management, and healing, then throw in a well designed gimmick boss to mix it up.
@@drbuni That's just not true at all; have you played a Zelda game?
@@matthewmuir8884 how is that not true? Shooting a big monster in the eye is code for the dungeon item being the key for every boss. It's obviously uninteresting and everyone knows it but they've never changed it
@@kie2 What wasn't true was the claim that anywhere close to 90% of the bosses operate that way; when it does appear, it's usually for the tutorial boss and only the tutorial boss.
- Enter foggate (There is no lore reason to have a foggate as it only made sense in DeS with the great slumbering one but hey Lé Formula)
- Look at moveset, die or win
- Repeat
That's now what Fromsoftware is.
You forgot the part where they lazily recycle the lore from Demon's Souls for, quite literally, every single subsequent game in the series. (Fantasy kingdom that is falling apart and long past its glory days, old malevolent gods/beings clinging to power who you must challenge.)
I even really enjoyed Sekiro, but they by and large even recycled it there, just in a Sengoku Era Japan setting.
I'm surprised it took me this long to watch this video, but I have felt the same since Dark Souls 3.
I was an early adopter of Demons and Dark Souls, and the whole memorizing attack patterns, roll dodging combos thing was not really a big part of the game for me. It's moreso just the way the combat was slower, and intentional, unlike most action games you aren't glued to your target, you didn't have a top-down camera, button mashing was punished heavily and positioning mattered way more than precise timing. Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring are great games, especially Elden Ring is one of my all time favourites for its exploration, environmental design, weapon and spell variety, and refinement of previous Souls systems. But all the ways the combat has changed in the Souls franchise make it feel now like the games that it was originally distancing itself from.
It feels really sad for me because I also love the old turn based Final Fantasy but that series is now an action game. That series was always loved but always had its detractors who didn't quite "get" why not every game can be a button masher.
In so many ways, not only is the video relevant to newly released Elden Ring on the front of the whole "shonen anime" and "this is a game where you press the dodge button at the right time", but it's even worse than Dark Souls 3 in the latter half of it, and even then arguably before that, too. Because now, not only do enemies have these same problems from Dark Souls 2 and 3 (excessive tracking from DaS2 and cutscene attacks you have to dodge constantly before getting one strike such as DaS3), but they're escalated. You're quotable line, "this is the part where people would start listing off all the attacks you can do" which remains hilariously on point even moreso for Elden Ring, applies more than ever from the defenders of the late-game laziness. Not only did Elden Ring add more moves, but most of them are more useless than ever before, because enemies are back with more poise, faster attacks speeds that some dodges literally can't even evade (but still eat through shields, too), but also have excessive tracking, semi-random retaliation moves that sometimes even animation cancel, massive AOE, and monstrous damage. So we're staring at a HUGE number of boss fights that all play the same with slightly different timings, with a bunch of game mechanics that don't even work because if you're not dodging most of the fight you're dead, then you MIGHT be able to get ONE swing in (especially on slower weapons) before having to resorting back to mass-rolling.
So all those game mechanics? Down the toilet for a lot of major boss fights. And everyone keeps bringing the posture breaking up... which is hilarious because some of the smallest weapons break posture easier than the heavier ones despite them being claimed, even in the damn game itself, to be MUCH better at dealing posture damage... except you get safe hits so infrequently on bosses that you MIGHT get one posture break, if you're lucky. And even the longsword style weapons (been the best default choice since DaS3, sadly, just because of how combat works now) good luck using even half of your combos or special moves. They take too long and you MIGHT get a long enough window to recover or they might just animation cancel and smack you before the game even allows you to input another action. So prepare to grind like fucking crazy. Because now, with Elden Ring, this isn't even a game where you press dodge at the right time... it's now a game where you bust out max damage and max hp or the boss busts on you and you die, particularly late-game. Shit literally reminds me of some goofy ass MMO tropes.
Amen. And don't forgot a -SPOILER- sudden mandatory dungeon before rhe final boss. Which, I feel it's just there for padding.
one of the things I rarely see people bring up is the lack of tank builds allowed in Souls games beyond Dark Souls 1. I loved wielding a giant hammer with a hulking suit of armor, you aren't mobile while doing it, so you take lots of damage, but the amount you take is severely reduced which allows you to be very aggressive, albeit very slow as well. this is practically impossible in the future games, especially ER, good luck using a giant strength weapon against most any boss without having to intermittently spam rolls away from their massive attack chains or god forbid try and tank through them with heals. now you HAVE to be super mobile and you HAVE to be doing insane damage, every build must be a glass cannon if you don't want to spend 10 minutes or more on just one of these horrendously boring bosses.
Don't make farting noises with your mouth
@@smwg4187 Don't climb ladders you didn't goddamn fawking earn Winnie!
Desmond Brown It's comical how fanboys constantly bring up the posture breaking as a justification that Elden Ring's bosses are COMPLETELY different from Dark Souls 3's bosses, when really both game's bosses are two sides of the same coin. On my RL1 NG+7 playthrough, I tried using charged R2s and jumping R2s to break the bosses' poise, but the poise numbers on NG+7 are so absurdly high that poise breaks rarely happened, if at all.. At that point, the bosses were literally just Dark Souls 3 bosses with even less downtime and even more blatant input reading, as if Dark Souls 3 wasn't already guilty with that stuff. The only bosses I managed to poise break on NG+7 were Margit and Godrick, and that's only because those bosses had opportunities just long enough for me to get in charged R2s and jumping R2s.
The issue with Elden Ring's bosses is that even though poise breaking does allow them to be approached somewhat differently to Dark Souls 3's bosses, it still has the same issue of bosses feeling same-y and homogenised. The only difference is that instead of every boss being about pressing the roll button at the right time, it's now that every boss is about piling on poise damage and hoping to Gwyn that you get a poise break, due to the baffling omission of a poise bar...
Ueda: “design by subtraction”
Miyazaki (post ds1): “design by addition”
He needs to replay ICO
7:47 After beating SOTD, this hit hard. Elden Ring has numerous cool spells and ashes of war with long start-up time, but the bosses especially on the DLC has short chance of attack for player, and that makes them impractical to use without spirit ashes, and the result is that many player simply resort on more conservative attacks. What's the point of having them, if they are overkill to use on mobs, and unusable on bosses? I feel like Fromsoftware prioritized difficulty above anything else, even if that meant sacrificing the fun. Such a shame.
after finishing Elden Ring's DLC I can honestly say that I'm done with rollslop, watching a knight casually roll through a literal god's 10-hit combo with lasers and explosions and everything is just downright silly, I'm not having any more of this stupid shit.
I just got to play Demon's Souls for the first time and it's a real shame people don't give it the credit it deserves. It's just as good as Dark Souls and in a few ways even better.
The real shame is that it is so unaccessible being locked behind Ps3 while DS has gotten a remake that it didn't need, since it still was easily available on steam, (and with a fanmade patch that solved it's problems) and even worse ds2 got one that nobody asked for just a fucking year after it's release.
I didn't have a Ps3 back then, had the 360, so sadly I can't give it the credit it probably deserves because I haven't had the opportunity to fucking play, even though it's been on the top of my list for a long time now.
It seems that even From doesn't give it the credit it deserves, and it's kinda disgusting.
I always loved the world much more than Dark Souls. My only gripe is that it's too short. Once you are through your first time, it will never be the same again running the game. :(
Also I really want them to finish the 6th archstone. The props they already made for it and the enemies are fucking amazing.
Guys, THE REMAKE IS A' COMIN'!!
I disagree, and I ultimately would rank it among the lower entries. It pains me to think this way, but I actually do agree with the consensus of it being a "Dark Souls Prototype" of sorts.
@@craylik5589 To be fair it's not FromSoft's decision how Demon's Souls is appreciated. Sony owns the IP. The PS5 remake was completely Sony's decision, with no input from FromSoftware.
Elden Ring still suffers from many of these problems. The addition of the jump button, the reintroduction of powerstancing, the way that many ashes of war are designed to integrate into combo attacks, it's great to see. I think that the customizable flask also adds a lot of potential to the formula.
But it's a shame that they somehow managed to make the multiplayer experience worse. It feels like the original intent was for Rune Arcs to work exactly like Embers in DS3, and tying multiplayer to the use of finger remedies instead was a late in development change. It is so frustrating that the reward system for multiplayer content makes so much more sense if rune arcs were equivalent to Embers. You could imagine an improvement, even, where the player would only be able to activate a rune arc and thus enable multiplayer from the safety of the roundtable hold.
The ability to teleport anywhere most of the time continues to serve as a crutch for the level design.
The copypasted catacombs and frequent enemy re-use is disappointing, but I think that dungeons like the teleporter dungeon and the leyndell catacombs ONLY work as well as they do because of the repetitive and predictable nature of those types of dungeon throughout the game. And it's a strange situation. There was ample opportunity to experiment with the abundant optional content in the game, but only a small handful even attempt anything novel.
Horseback combat is a potentially interesting addition but I can't recall a single encounter in the game that seemed to be designed to be fought that way. You absolutely can fight a number of bosses on horseback, and occasionally it's true that hopping on torrent is a convenient way to avoid a particular attack, but you could remove torrent completely and the only way in which you would maybe suffer from his absence in combat is the lack of a double jump for hopping over dragon breath.
I think the very first encounter with the dragon on the lake is the perfect use case of the horseback combat. The Dragon gets to do dragon things like fly around and you get to follow/avoid him at a similar pace thanks to Torrent.
Unfortunately From Soft somehow thought it was a good idea to not let you use Torrent in a fight with Elden Beast, a creature that is big, moves around a lot and has huge AOEs.
"It seems to me that the actual origin of the series has actually been forgotten"-Matthewmatosis refrerring to Demon's Souls
*Cries in Kings Field II*
not the same series
@@BinaryDood Well a bunch of people call it the "first Souls game". Because there are surprisingly many similarities. But yes technically not.
@@BinaryDood And you could still say that Kings Field 2 is the "origin" of the "Souls series" as many ideas that ended up in Demon's Souls and subsequently other "souls games" came from Kings Field II or at least were likely inspired by it.
@@sirexilon49 really stretching the meaning of "series" there. But I see your point. Thought I can't call Symphony of the Night part of the Metroid Series because it uses the same map. Or Bioshock apart of the System Shock series because it uses the same... everything. Really, series has less to do with the contents and more to do with the perception.
@@sirexilon49 and then there is the inspiration of the king's field series itself called ultima underworld the stygian abyss which received a psx remake in japan...
edit: As for symphony itself it's gameplay is a remake of Simon's Quest and the original Vampire Killer for MSX
I keep coming back to this one. Phenomenal video. Would love more editorial style stuff like this.
Matthew was the greatest game reviewer that TH-cam ever had. Why? Because I think he never made a video just to please his fans, or to put a NordVPN ad in between, or to make the recommend algorithms happy.
An Irish with the most dry sense of humor, and the purest heart of a gamer.
I keep searching for another critic to take up the mantle and achieve the same level of quality analysis. Some can match him in one aspect or another, but nobody can make such insightful observations with such tight pacing with such consistency with so much humor.
I’m sad to report he’s a singular talent. We won’t see his like again.
@@siphillis I agree. Matthew obviously has talent and he didn't overstay his welcome. This video was exceptionally well made and nothing more can be said about Souls games, to be honest.
lol
@Lightstream He decided to not make his old-schooled analysis/critique videos anymore(maybe Bayonetta because dude is a Kamiya fanboy but I doubt he can pure platinum that game lol) He hates to repeat himself and in his last meta video you could tell he was done with video essays. He is also making his own video games now. Check out his Matthewmatosis Extra channel if you are interested. He streams occasionally on TH-cam. In a sense, we can all consider ourselves graduating from the Matthewmatosis academy. You no longer need Matthew to tell you how to think about a game since everyone has his own frame of reference as he said in his (former) last video.
17 hours and 2 major bosses into Elden Ring thus far, and I can't stop thinking about this video. You were always my favorite youtube video essayist and my favorite games critic period, but it's shocking how you've managed to predict just about everything I can't stand about the game. Everyone I know is having the time of their lives, but I can't get over the fact that they've copied and pasted the Firelink Shrine theme across the entire overworld. I can't get over the fact that magic is still separated into the three genders of Fire, Holy, and Blue. I can't get over the fact that every boss thus far has been a roll and punish skill check, how every cave has been an Oblivion-tier gauntlet of goblins with a throwaway miniboss at the end, and how even the opening cutscene felt like a cover of Dark Souls'. I genuinely hope the game improves for me, but so far, even at its best, it's been Dark Souls 3, complete with every single issue pointed out in this video made half a decade before the game's release.
It's fitting that FromSoft has become obsessed with games about once-great and mysterious lands trapped in a cycle of death and rebirth, decay and stagnation.
So, nothing was improved after DS3? Hard to believe. I still haven't played it yet, only watching reviews
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m so disappointed with ER.
It’s just dark souls 3 with a bit of running around in between the same bosses we’ve had since artorius.
@@aldecotan I wouldn't say NOTHING's been improved, but it REALLY does feel like a soft reboot of Dark Souls in a more commercially safe genre. The new parts are boring and the good parts are old. It's still better than a lot of other games, but for me at least, it's a disappointment. Dark Souls 3 was explicitly about moving on from endlessly repeating cycles of stagnation and decay, and yet FromSoft decided to go ahead and link the first flame again.
@@GreavesEc as someone who really disliked ds3 because of the linearity and over abundance of simple action bosses, I've enjoyed Elden Ring a lot and have found a lot of the bosses, though not all, to be at least less of a roll fest and simply more straightforward. there are apparently some puzzle like bosses as well. And it's not a bootleg bloodborne like 3 so I'm more than satisfied lol i think it's to just let ER be it's own thing. We have Demons Souls and the remake, it would do FROM no use to just repeat that exact formula for a new game.
@@aldecotan the combat and build variety is better
Just wanted to say I really like the point you make about how later games in the series have become closer to action games, and therefor feel weaker since it becomes natural to compare them to more fully fleshed out action games. This is something I've thought about Fallout 4 for a while. So many people say that Fallout 4 improves on the combat at least, despite its many regressions from what games earlier in the series do. But to me that's not good enough. The closer it get's to feeling like a typical first person shooter and strips away the RPG elements that made the series in the first place, the more sense it makes to stop comparing it to RPG's and start comparing it to properly made first person shooters. And in that case it fails spectacularly by having very watered down and basic FPS mechanics compared to so many games in that genre.
You make a good point and Joseph Anderson talks about this in his TH-cam critique on Fallout 4 ( the second video he did on the game).
When Fallout 4 focuses more on the action it will be compared to other games which focus on action. It will look quite watered down by comparison. The funny thing about Bethesda's Fallout is it seems incapable of doing both: it either has decent combat but crap RPG mechanics or decent RPG mechanics and crap combat. Even when it has decent combat that combat still pales in comparison to other action games.
Matthew's point about how other action RPGs do the same thing is valid.
@@asiamatron Joseph Anderson is a complete tool but he brings up a lot of good points at times. I really enjoyed his DS2 videos, though I am even more positive than he is on the game, which was still very positive.
@@theatheistbear3117 and why that exactly?
@@shrouls Because he doesn’t take criticism very well when people point out that he uses subjective and objective statements interchangeably (for example calling *SOMA* not a horror game, or saying horror games “aren’t scary”), and when confronted about it he made an entire video doubling down on “subjectivity being implied,” and generally misconstruing the arguments people were making.
@@theatheistbear3117 this is not enough to call him a "complete tool". His videos are subjective, same for matthewmatosis and every critic whether they admit to it or not. I do not see the issue with this and outside of his horror games don't scare me video his work is on par with the best on this site
I'm glad someone's finally criticizing the combat of these games. Its always been satisfying but it has no depth. It seems like the Souls community is constantly praising the combat when it amounts to as little as holding L1 and occasionally pressing R1 and O to attack or dodge an AOE. The level design, atmosphere, and npcs were always what drove me to the games.
I think that the enemies and bosses made this combat fun; If I think back to my favourite bosses in the series, all I did was dodging and light attacking, but I still love them, because their design compliments this simple combat system, by them doing the complex things
@@gottdashochstewesen4902 fully agreed. he says he could just play a better action rpg but outside of monster hunter i cant think of a game that isn't a soulslike which has the sort of boss quality bloodborne ds3 and elden ring have and even if they do the player also feels more overpowered.
The lack of depth is what makes it great imo. I don't need 100+ different moves and combos for a combat system to be fun, the simplicity is what makes is engaging.
@@livingfailure He said better action game not action rpg
@@livingfailurehe said action game. DMC etc have way better action for example.
I think the best thing for the series is to just abandon invincibility frames altogether. It's a silly mechanic to begin with, but it has singlehandedly poisoned the series' enemy design more than any other. Maybe if you are hit while dodging you can take 50% reduced damage, but enough of armored knights rolling through laser beams like a ninja silliness.
ever heard of shields brother?
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz
Shields have become either useless or completely broken by the time of Elden ring.
My man's describing an Endure build like it's some hypothetical theory that's never been tried before.
Actually interesting take and I agree overall. But I think the older games prove that i-frames aren't really the issue. Instead it's the focus on action, especially boss fights. Those older games had silly movement, but it was slow and methodical, so the games themselves didn't feel silly. The challenges were mostly about patience, attentiveness and experimentation, rather than fast reaction times. I love the new formula too, but I miss the more somber older games.
@@franciscofarias6385 Yes, I completely agree. But the new action-oriented Souls games sell very well so I doubt they will stop that trend. About all you can do is attempt treat the symptoms and at least make the action somewhat novel and interesting again. Of course the best answer is to go back to series' roots and encourage cautious exploration with creative bosses, but I doubt FromSoft/Namco will ever do that.
I do genuinely really really like DS3, BB, and Elden ring, but this video was very prophetic. People on twitter saw the one part about respecs, which to be fair I do agree is a weak point but I do see where he's coming from, more weight to your decisions and a more grounded experience and such, even if I personally like being able to respec and try different weapons and stuff. And assumed it was the whole video when that's just wrong. I do genuinely enjoy the roll bosses because to me learning all the timings, the ideal directions to roll, jump, best way to sneak hits in between attacks, etc, genuinely entertaining and I find it unique and fun enough to not be a big issue and since I find the combat enjoyable I don't bother leashing enemies but I totally understand the people who want bosses from Demon souls to make a return. From what I've seen the new ER DLC seems to have pushed this formula to the absolute extreme in a game that was already criticized by many to be the result of stagnation, so I do hope From goes in a new direction going forward and either expands on the simple system we have now, or get an entirely new one.
I'm not trying to argue that the games are deep, they aren't, they're simple but they also feel really good to play, even if the weapons all basically serve the same purpose, watching the animations play out, learning which ones are slower or quicker or allow you to weave between attacks and get a few hits in, the weapon skills, all make them feel different and cool enough to want to use them, especially in BB.
So yeah, even if I think games like ER, BB, and DS3 are great, I totally understand where Matt and the people in this comment section are coming from, and this video has made me have a new appreciation for fights like Micolash or Rom. I just wish people could come to the same conclusion instead of just insisting people need to git gud. It's fine to like something that's flawed or simple, and it's fine for people to want something that isn't simple, just enjoy the ride and have a good time.
Also ER should have been way harder on the whole consequences thing, Bell bearings are dumb and while I understand not being able to kill some NPCs in the roundtable, I just wish they actually reacted to you being a better or worse person, it just makes them feel static even if they aren't bad characters by any means, it's not what you want in a game like ER where exploration and branching paths is a big selling point.
I think the most crucial point of DS1 was the disability to warp from the beginning. If you were stuck in one area the only way out of it was to press onward, or awkwardly fight ones way back. I remember being stuck in blighttown and it was scary, because at the time there was no going back for me.
I think Elden Rings exploration would actually have been meaningful if you couldn´t teleport through the entire map all the time.
Especially the teleportation traps would have gained a lot by that. Other than a cheap "gotcha, heres a visual spoiler for you" it would have been terrifying to fight ones way out of Caelid for example after being tpd there...
I do like the ER endgame bosses though, they´re mechanically fitting (being demigods and all), but I really hope from will do something else by now. Since Bloodborne all the games feel like more of the same, with slight variation but having different visuals each time :/
For the first few hours of the game, I didn't realise that you could fast travel- so when I got caught in the teleportation trap to Caelid, I had to find my way back to Limgrave through an area for which I was massively underlevelled. It may have been a mindboggling show of obliviousness/stupidity on my part, but it gave me a sense of adventure and danger (like that of earlier Fromsoft titles) that was woefully absent once I discovered fast travel. Because of that, it was probably the highlight of the game for me.
Fast travel is truly a detriment to this game. Elden Ring has a huge and beautifully crafted world, but you can never appreciate the scale and diversity of it because, once you've trotted around for long enough, every location in the game is two button-presses away. It completely triviliases the aesthetic experience, and you have less incentive to fully explore areas before moving on because you can just teleport back there whenever you want; but that's only the least of it. Along with the ridiculous frequency of Sites of Grace, you never have to make plans or consider how you're going to get somewhere, as, besides the generic dungeons where fast travel is disabled, there is no risk and no consequence to pushing through an unknown area: as long as you're not in combat, you don't have to worry about how you're getting back. Even dropping runes is far less nerve-wracking than earlier titles. And since the stakes are always so low, that wonderful feeling of relief once you get to a safe area (which, as far as I'm concerned, was the best part of Dark Souls) is practically non-existent.
The worst part is that I'm not sure there's any quick, moddable solution to the issue. Enemy and level design is balanced around the ability to fast travel, so replacing it with a system more akin to Dark Souls 1 (with fewer Sites of Grace and a limited, more diegetic warp system) would probably make the game very boring and frustrating; boss runs would be absolutely out of the question, for a start.
I think the dumbest part about the teleportation traps is that they teleport you most of the time near a site of grace; so instead of getting the feeling that I actually got trapped I end up getting spoiled about 3 late-game areas instead which just removed any fun of exploring new things I had lol
They also should've changed a lot of filler dungeons into the cool ones in late-game; the looping one was fun, teleporting chest dungeon was nice and the invisible floor one reminded me of the crystal cave in a good way. Instead you end up with 50+ dungeons with only 4 unique ones while the rest is super formulaic where you can predict the outcome of each type of dungeon.
If Elden Ring endgame bosses means Malenia I disagree because I hate that boss but if it means Godfrey then I like that
Demons Souls and Dark Souls established and enhanced realistic, meaningful, creative and grounded designs. Ever since the souls games split from these older, more fleshed out and thought provoking characteristics into reactive, pattern learning, timing checks to see how well you can press buttons things have changed. Both can be fun, both have their playerbase that enjoys it. And thats great. We had BB, DS3, Sekiro and Elden Ring. The button mashers got their fill. When is our turn in getting a game like Demons or Dark Souls again? Or at the very least go out there Michael Zaki and tell us that you wont do any of that ever again and just make your next Berserk game uh I mean Elden Ring 2. Then I can at least move on and stop hoping that these games will ever become something more again.
Lords of the Fallen 2023 somehow seems understands those older games compared to Fromsoftware now a days lmfao
Update since I recently read about Miyazaki saying that ER seemed to be a little in over their head saying its as big as they can make a game and that they wont do another game like that for a long while, focusing on a few smaller games in the forseeable future while also letting other creative heads at Fromsoft take charge this slight bit of hope is coming through again. Maybe they did in fact learn from ERs massive blunders in design and the next games will be just the creative, thought provoking and interesting Demons Souls-like that we wish for. Or it will just be another button masher with no substance. Time will tell. At the very least they will tone done the ridiculous copy-pasting ER had... surely
@@JohnKasarinlanLOTF was slop, the gank reminds me of ds2.
That game was clearly trying to be a sequel to ds2, even the menu are straight out of ds2, saying the game “understood the games more than FS” is just an insult.
Like how many bad takes come out of your mouth lol, every comment I read you’re trying to paint yourself as correct and better than others, constantly calling people who disagree with you fanboys as to prop yourself up and put others down is a pathetic tactic.
You even agreed and praised (comparing it to Matthew is an insult) the FK video lmao, that’s how ik you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about and your sense of quality is horrible.
It’s a shame MatthewMatosis doesn’t have millions of subscribers as no one else on this site even comes close in terms of writing and perspective. The sheer foresight of this video is uncanny. Discourse over these games and TH-cam criticism in general are still playing catch up.
Give Noah Cadwell Gervais a watch. His writing and perspective definitely matches Matthews.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 not to sound rude but I don't think they are even comparable
@@ShadowedAgony To each their own, I personally find Noah very insightful and well spoken.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 My (admittedly limited) experience with NCG has been that he mostly just says a lot of flowery words that ultimately mean nothing, or are outright incorrect.
@@EmberBright2077 Couldn’t disagree more but as I said, to each their own. Noah just has a very different approach to other creators. He looks at games more holistically and how they fit into the broader canon of media and pop culture that influenced and inspired them and less from a game design perspective like Mathew does. I can see why some would find this boring and “meaning nothing” but I personally find it fascinating.
HAHAHA I remember thinking how From had gone to the dogs with Elden Ring. Now they announce Nightreign. Jesus Christ.
I suppose all that's left at this point is a Soulsbourne/Elden Ring crossover fighting game or MOBA. What an undignified end to this series.
We made it guys, the generic blob of a game is finally here.
One big thing this video doesn't touch on is the music. Even if the composition quality can be low, it's very unique for almost no tracks with vocals and much more atmosphere-driven than any other game in the series. Then, I played the Demon's Remake, where they ruined the OST by filling every track with bombast and chanting (the Dirty Colossus having an "epic" theme feels like self-parody) and it made me realize that this issue extended across all of From's output DaS2 onward. Like, it feels like almost every single boss theme since had to have a choir of some kind, and while I can't speak for Sekiro (the OST was so boring none of it ever registered to me), this problem really peaks in Elden Ring, even if I do find some of the songs to be really cool.
The Sekiro OST uses a lot of Japanese instruments to evoke the feeling of the setting it is in. The bombast is not lost on bosses that deserve it, such as Isshin, Gyoubu and Genichiro. The the more somber or atmospheric tracks still exist however, with examples like Emma's being more melancholic instrumentation, and the track "Apparitions" used for ghost enemies evoking a feeling of other-worldiness with the traditional whistling and low humming of the arrangement.
souls games literally dont have soundtracks
this.
"just put together chanting and le epicness"
@@SurprsdPenguin A lot of fans hated Sekiro OST, I think it was the best FromSoftware OST since Demon's Souls & Dark Souls 1. Sekiro isn't exactly a "Soulsborne" game, but it had an understated OST for a FromSoftware game.
@@kageakiminato8536 Ur literally wrong but aight
Well done. This video has aged well. I clicked for DeS and got my unpopular opinion on Fromsoftware's entire post-DeS arc articulated back at me. The special appeal of these early games is in exploring and presenting immersive novelty, and more developers should take inspiration from their spirit rather than the specifics of i-frame spam, character action-lite implementation.
I'm curious about your take on the combat in Sekiro.
At least in Sekiro it is possible to combo ninja tools, into combat arts, plus there are all the new defensive options you need to be mindful of.
now that I've played sekiro I agree with this video even more, it's funny
@Donald Anderson He seems kinda... Cynical to me.
Sekiro combat is all about pressing the block button at the right time, in quick succession.
I could see him liking Sekiro for what it is. It’s a very competent action game, and it actually has mechanics that work better with its action system than DS3 or Bloodborne did. Its combat is definitely more complex, though still nothing approaching Devil May Cry, for example. I think that I don’t like Sekiro just because it’s not my thing, and DS is. I like RPG mechanics and progression. Sekiro doesn’t REALLY have these. Don’t forget, Matthew has beaten Devil May Cry on the hardest difficulty while taking no damage. He definitely likes twitch action games. I can’t be sure what he would think, but whether he agrees with me or not, I can be sure he’d have some good insight.
I think the fact that the "souls" games have gone from:
>Death immediately halves your HP. >Repeated deaths make the world harder. >Can be invaded at any time while human.
To: >Recharging estus, mimic tear, curse doesn't even lower HP, etc. >Death has no punishment beyond soul/rune loss. >Can only be invaded in co-op.
really says all it needs to about these games and who they're intended for. (Hint: not fans of the original games)
I used to be in stubborn disagreement with this video for years. I loved this series, I was having fun, no reason for them to change what they were doing. And then comes Elden Ring, and most recently the DLC... They really did it, they hit the limit with how far they can push this type of combat and it's finally become tiresome. Rolling and hitting and rolling some more, over and over and over. Or of course you can entirely ignore the game design with summons that break the AI or with a variety of broken OP builds. Because that's fun right? The regretable thing is I don't see them going back to the unconventional Demon's Souls style of designing bosses any more. We're stuck with this now and the overwhelming amount of new players will tell you it's better this way.
Shadow of the Erdtree has a mixed review score on Steam with players lamenting that it's too hard, I think what they mean by "hard" is that they're not having fun with this combat system.
There can't be a simple "slow" enemy anymore. I got to the final area of the dlc and I was just rolling my eyes at this point seeing more heavily armored enemies with huge ass weapons moving around like there's no gravity.
I deleted the game after I gave the final boss a few attempts. I'm so tired of memorizing a weaponized seizure for the 50th time
@@turnip5178 I don't think so. People are really, really dumb. Millions out there think Elden Ring is the greatest thing ever. The "too hard" remarks are symptom of the series becoming stale. They keep releasing the same game over and over so the only way to outdo the last is to make fights crazier and harder. I remember thinking how absurd the Melania fight was when I beat it. SOTE is just hitting a tipping point for many in terms of difficulty, people who would otherwise be happy to mindlessly consume the next Souls clone Bandai squats out.
I disagree on the idea that they ignore the game's design. Summons have existed and broken the AI from day one, its an online game. OP builds have existed since day one, its an RPG. From is completely ok with players doing either of this. It enables you to set the difficulty of the game to what the player desires.
@@SnorkCosmodix That's a fair point. My problem with it is how vast the difference is between the two in Elden Ring. The bosses are relentless solo, with very small windows to attack, but with summoning you can just freely attack them while they're distracted. It ignores so much about the fight's design that it becomes a complete joke. Similar with stuff like bleed builds, that just shred boss health bars compared to nearly any other weapon type. It doesn't feel like a balanced experience of setting your own difficultly, it's either roll timing memorization or total cheese.
This aged like fine wine, It's crazy how much Elden Ring proved you were right about worrying.
😂😂😂
@@stefanostsougkranis5851 ?
@@stefanostsougkranis5851 was there a funny thing I missed
Not really. Elden Ring is excellent. Matthew is far too harsh on the more recent From Soft games. I agree with him on the fact that Demon's Souls (and to an extent DS1) had a unique charm that has somewhat been lost, but the recent games have still been fantastic. Do I wish they were a bit more like the older ones? Yes. Do they have some annoying design trends? Sure. But they are still top tier video games, and there is no reason to "worry".
@@MarkHogan994 ER is a fantastic world with mediocre gameplay. It's essentially what you get if you design a souls game to serve the lowest common denominator.
It's still going to be great for a lot of people, and it's fine to love it (or not). However Sekiro and ER are the first FS games that I got bored of after a few days and put down to play other things. For people like me, the games have actually just gotten worse.
Man I was wondering why I was feeling bored of Elden Ring even after changing my build 3 times. After the novelty of the open world wears down you are left with bosses that are just gael on crack or gankfests, and copypasted minidungeons with mediocre rewards. There are no surprises or anything.
Legacy Dungeons were the highlight of the game for me, the verticality adds a lot to exploration and Stormveil castle is just as good as boletaria, despite the high amount of bonfires and teleporting instead of making the level cycle on itself.
And maybe I exaggerated about there being no surprises. Those crazy chariot dungeons despite being unfair and rage inducing were fun in the end, just because they were different, a new challenge more similar to a puzzle/plataforming section that was a nice break from boss-with-a fifteen-seconds-long-attack-chain-and-input-reading #27, which is regrettable since those dungeons end on another boring bossfight with a mediocre reward
@@bobsnob9246 You're right about the lack of surprises, personally the worst disappointment I had with Elden Ring was how completely static and boring the open world is. It was a golden opportunity for FromSoft to create interesting traversal challenges and instead they just copypasted the usual poison swamps (which can be completely trivialized by using the horse) and nothing else. Even Dragon's Dogma has more interesting area gimmicks like Windworm Valley. In fact ER does absolutely nothing interesting or creative neither as an open world game nor as a Souls game.
At the 50 hour mark you will get bord mostly because the game just decides to throw boss after boss after anoying enemy back to back gets stale fast.
@@sagejay9816 yeah I thought the world was the best since ds1 but once you run out of stuff to explore its apparent the mechanics of the series haven't gotten any better. The final stretch of bosses are particularly cheap.
@@AldricJFL When I got to the "Super Saiyan 4!" poison swamp I just sighed really hard and the weight of my disappointment with from's lack of restraint (and it seems originality at this point) collapsed on me like a structurally compromised brick house.
I really appreciate coming back to this comment section just because it's the only place I can organically find people disliking Elden Ring without being willfully toxic assholes about it. Every single person I know who has played it cannot stop gushing about it, and they have very valid reasons to love the game, it's just SUPER SUPER SUPER not for me, in large part due to all the things this video enumerates. But holy fuck has it been isolating seeing a ton of my friends on a discord call together playing it, and knowing I can't jump in because I WILL be asked why I don't like this game AGAIN, likely multiple times, before having someone try and pitch a late-game section to me.
What's that? You're telling me there's a Berserk reference? In a FromSoft game? My god, I haven't been this excited since the last time I held my keyring in front of my face and jingled it around a little.
Again, super happy for my friends. But I really appreciate having all of you around to commiserate with.
"Bro, why don't you like Elden Ring?"
"Because I've beaten it four times already."
I had a friend threaten to block me for harassment because i shared my less than stellar opinion of the game while i played through it. Said he refused to ever talk about this game with me ever again unless it was more positive. He was pretty normal until this game came out. Im honestly perplexed that a series that was once quite reflective and solemn has attracted such a cult like appraisal for all the things it no longer is.
@@TheEnigmaStyle YO FORREAL THAT’S TOXIC AS FUCK.
I saw someone say that “people harp on the reused animations because it’s one of the only valid criticisms of the game” and like, I get that the game has a lot of polish, but the hype train has really poisoned the discourse HARD.
I avoid talking to my friends about it because I’m paranoid my miasma of depression will become contagious. Your friend telling you to stop talking to them about it is some utter toxic bullshit though and I’m so sorry you have to go through that.
Keys?? Jingling??? Where?!!!
@@phirmth I had a similar experience yesterday evening while watching a Souls streamer play Elden Ring on Twitch. I got dogpiled on not just by the people in chat, but the STREAMER as well, just because I brought up things I didn't like about Elden Ring. They erroneously jumped to the conclusion that I hate Elden Ring, when I wasn't even that harsh on the game. I had to clarify that I like the game, I'm just critical of its flaws. Apparently that wasn't good enough for them though, since some dumbshit Souls fanboy replied to me saying "Who cares about the flaws?". As if I'm somehow an idiot for bringing up major flaws that tarnish the memorable experience you're supposed to have playing these games.
The fact that I can't even go 5 seconds without being barraged by Souls fanboys for being critical of the game is absolute horseshit. A lot of people say "it's just a vocal minority, the Souls community are actually really helpful!", but I find that harder and harder to believe, with all the incidents I've seen with other content creators regarding the Souls community. If I didn't already hate the Souls fanbase before Elden Ring, I certainly do now thanks to the discourse surrounding this game...
Agreed about the combat. By the time you hit DS3 bosses are basically a glorified skipping rope. You learn the I-Frames for a boss and the brief moments when you can punish.
For all the fanfare of epic orchestral music and giant armored badasses it is a combat system where only 2 buttons really matter, R1 and Dodge
That skipping rope analogy is genius, I gotta remember that.
I definitely agree with you on the music especially. Too much of the music in the later games are grand orchestral musics that on their own are good but really not memorable
yeah but at least in ds3 you can consitantly avoid damage by jumpingh on the rope. In the early games you pretty much must have a shield or the whole game crumbles into nothing
@@HoneyDoll894 I dunno man I never used a shield for Dark Souls 1. I can't speak for Demon's Souls because I sucked too much at that game when it released.
@@MrCompassionate01 in my experience ds1 feels very inconsistent and even with very low weight the roll still always feels too slow and clumsy
82 hours into Elden Ring...just wanted to come back and watch this video again. Always make great content mate
Video was great when it was released and even better now that Elden Ring has become a hellscape of delayed animations and boss combo strings.
I was looking for this kind of comment. Can you say a little more about Elden Ring? I can't play it by myself and gameplay seems to be unchanged after ds3
@@aldecotan I haven’t finished it yet but Matt’s video is spot on about the problems with the combat. The bosses have gotten a lot more extravagant and have various ranged moves, gap closers, etc while player options have not meaningfully improved. Plenty of bosses have “gotcha” animations that are just annoying and needlessly pad out fights where you’re often only able to take two or three hits before needing to heel. As for combat, you’re still cycling through magic, items, etc clumsily and it becomes deflating when you go know that you’re going to have to hunker down and eventually memorize the boss move set. They feel far less satisfying to beat now probably because we’ve played all this before, now with just more bullshit. The animation delays oftentimes fly in the face of physics itself and make many bosses look like Dancer of the Boreal Valley.
Moreover the open world is not well justified either, as fighting enemies becomes extremely tedious and unrewarding, traversal is not unique or challenging, and you’re not exactly dealing with the elements or random encounters. The exploration doesn’t always reward you either and at times it saps joy out of going places. This would be less annoying in the other games because you don’t have to run around as much, but Elden Ring is stuffed with padding and becomes a slog if you’re not an ultra hardcore souls fan. I hope Matt makes a review of Elden Ring because he would have a lot to say about the open world design.
@@5ifth you are just stating random things and/or repeating what matthewmatosis said in the videoa and applying it to elden ring, like for example you say that the players' actions were not meaningfully improved when ER has far wider viable moveset than any souls game, because in dark souls as a melee character you were pretty much limited to like 3 viable actions: R1 attacks, rolling and sometimes blocking, which became weaker in next titles, but still pretty reliable. Most R2s were useless, because spamming R1s did more damage anyway, especially during bossfights and parrying or backstabs didn't work on bosses. Elden Ring actually uses all of those mechanics and adds a few more. Pretty much every move you have is useful (besides backstep why was it ever in any souls game?) because you can break enemy's posture with heavy attacks, guard counters, jump attacks and parrying can be used more often on bosses/minibosses. You also have dozens of switchable weapon skills. Mathewmatosis had a problem that the game supposedly focusing more on action while not deeping the combat, but ER has better and deeper combat, so what's the problem with that?
Radhan is basically everything wrong with Fromsoft's boss design
@@5ifth I disagree that player options have not changed. Heavy attacks stagger and are optimal for aggressive play, but require smart timing. Weaponarts/skills have been buffed to be viable, allowing for more potential combos, not to mention sleeping debuff, or summoning trash mobs that deal no damage to the boss but take agro from the boss for a while, but not long since you hitting them makes them target you again. If you are smart, you can cheese lot of the bosses in the game, but some might consider it cowardice. Overall the combat is slightly deeper and more complex in classic other action game ways and rather then being copy of ds3 as everybody is talking about, it is rather the equivalent to ds3 as Dark Souls was to Demon Souls. Not much innovation, increased size of the map, combat polish and so on. Though the lack of gimmicky bossfights is kinda sad. One of my favourite bossfights in the game are the Crystallian dudes in mines, because they have very smart gimmick to them where you cant damage them with normal weapons, and have to use blunt weapons to shatter them, which imo was really well done gimmick unlike most of ds3 gimmick bossfights.
I always return to this video to pay respect for the 🐐 of video game commentary.
I think the main reason people hate Micolash isn't because of the fact that he runs away. It's that when you actually do catch up to him, he spams a projectile magic attack that has insane tracking and that one shots you if all of it connects. It feels incredibly cheap to die to. Especially since that same attack costs the player 9 quicksilver bullets to use and yet he can spam it as many times as he wants.
The problem I have with gimmick fights in souls games is that more often than not, they're executed horribly. The ideas are interesting, but they rarely ever translate well into gameplay(A prime example being the bed of chaos). The inclusion of more traditional bosses in the recent souls games is probably a result of the refinement you mentioned. People seem to enjoy bosses like Flamelurker and Allant alot more than some of the more gimmick based fights. Personally, I will always prefer bosses that challenge my knowledge of a games mechanics over gimmick fights.
@@carlschrappen9712 I agree with you, there are action games that do those type of bosses much better than fromsoft. It's just that fromsoft rarely ever executes these gimmick bosses well. There are a few execptions like the one you mentioned, but the majority of them aren't very good in my opinion. The combat in souls isn't very deep, but it's still fun. So fights that test my knowledge of the games combat are enjoyable to fight for me even though there are games that do it better.
@@carlschrappen9712 I wouldn't really call Sif a gimmick boss. He's more of a lore boss if you ask me. Him limping towards the end of the fight was bloody soul crushing though :(
But yeah I think an even balance of both types of fights would be ideal. Just for me personally, when I replay these games the gimmick bosses lose their charm since I already know the trick behind them. But I can understand why they're in the game and why some people like them.
@@carlschrappen9712 I find it funny that people seem to think that the combat in Sekiro has alot of depth when in reality it really doesn't. I found myself playing it the exact same way on all of my subsequent playthroughs and the only reason I even replayed it was to get the other endings. These people really need to play a game that actually has really deep combat like Devil may cry for example. That being said, the combat in Sekiro is pretty solid and is something unique to the traditional souls formula.
But yeah as I said, an equal balance of both gimmick and traditional fights would be ideal. I just hope the gimmick fights aren't bed of chaos levels of quality though and are more similar to the likes of the storm king and maiden astrea lol.
@@carlschrappen9712 Why did you delete your comments?
@@carlschrappen9712 Fair enough
I am so glad that I am not the only person who enjoyed Micolash. It pisses me off how so many people judge a boss entirely based on how hardcore difficult it was
Personally I felt that Micolash was interesting, but hindered by his attacks. He would constantly spam Augur and Call Beyond which made the fight portion boring since you’re just strafing or dodging the same two attacks, unless he tried an occasional punch which didn’t exactly require any strategy. On the contrary, the running sections were a unique twist, I liked that if you were keeping pace with him you could slip through the gate at the end, though finding the path around from above was also enjoyable. Yet a slight mistime in dodging in the attack phase could result in a one-shot and thus running through the same path again became tedious.
Funnily enough my only issue with Micolash is actually that he can be hardcore difficult on higher NG+ cycles. At a certain point, his A Call Beyond spell legit one shots you. You have to move in close to him quickly so he doesn't use it, but that's usually hard to do when you've just dropped down for phase 2. He usually gets off at least one cast of A Call Beyond, and if you get hit, you're dead, unless you have insane HP and insane Arcane resistance.
People don't like Micolash because he's cheap.
I found him somewhat entertaining the first time, every other time he’s an annoying time waster.
Or maybe it's the fact that the Gehrmans & Marias reiterate upon an old, successful-- or at least non-broken formula, where Micolash is a new, experimental concept of which From doesn't stick the landing.
You don't need to be partial to difficulty to recognize Bed of Chaos & Dragon God's shortcomings. Personally I think Micolash fails in most of the same ways Frenzy does.
Elden Ring DLC Spoilers:
I think it's telling that one of my favorite parts of the Elden Ring DLC was when I stumbled into the Abyssal Woods. No other area in the game had an atmosphere quite like it. I vividly remember trying to ride Torrent into the woods, then being thrown off, and then realizing you can't summon him anymore because he was afraid. That was deeply unsettling. The dev messages found in the woods were a little heavy-handed, but they set the tone for the area properly - the tone being "Something is very wrong with this place, and you must tread very carefully." Looking back on it, the woods amount to a mostly empty area with a dungeon at the end and a very, very basic stealth section in between, but the unease and uncertainty I felt while exploring the woods for the first time was legitimate, and that memory has stuck with me more than most things from the dlc. To borrow something from Matt's video: the woods weren't good just because it was different, but that variety certainly helped.
...Has the bar really dropped so low that we're congratulating forced stealth sections now?
@@wisemage0 And not only forced stealth sections, but forced stealth sections in a massive area that is almost entirely empty that you can't even navigate with your horse.
@@wisemage0 My comment was meant to illustrate a point from the video. The point was that variety is important. Compared to other games with stealth mechanics, the stealth mechanics found in Elden Ring are unremarkable. I'm not praising it for that. It's the fact that there's no other area in the game like the Abyssal Woods that's important. That doesn't make the Abyssal Woods good on its own, but I do remember it fondly because of the strong sense of dread I had while exploring it. Even if the gameplay is simple, the overall experience can still be good if it's propped up by other things, like strong art direction and good sound design.
@@UnbreakableJake I get where you're coming from: the spark was there. I reached that area, read a message left by the game saying "combat is not an option here", but then I kept trying to backstab those creatures instead of avoiding them because I assumed the message was false (which it was). In an earlier instalment I would've taken that message at face value and acted accordingly, there would've been less of a jarring disconnect between the game and I. Instead it turned into an optional parry challenge that completely undermined the horror elements.
Also, I've ridden torrent off of like 30 different cliffs, there's no way that horse is scared of walking through a spooky forest!
The bar definitely is lower but because I don’t think there’s anything really moody or good about the abyssal woods. You’re doing a vibes take and I’m just gonna say, there are better areas in from soft games that aren’t literally barren with a very poor mechanical homage to Bloodborne where a parry style mechanic felt REALLY good to do and was much more lenient.
The best part is you can get locked out of experiencing Torrent throw you off of itself in fear. This is a big issue with Elden Ring in general, when you really start scrutinizing the details you see that a lot of the game really depends on the player playing it in a very specific way and ensuring the player sees or does something is just left to new game plus cycles where the first impression may have been destroyed.
And I’m saying this as someone who was thrown from Torrent and can’t really replicate the experience. There’s nothing about Frenzy in the main game where torrent gets scared around villages afflicted by frenzy in the main game. Areas where people use the flame of frenzy. It’s self indulgent on the part of the designers. The more you think about it the more it’s a detail that is grafted to the main game in this perceivable shitty way.
Teleportation has been the worst addition to the games in my opinion. When you venture down into Blight Town you better make sure you're prepared, because once you're down there there's no teleporting out again with zero consequences. It made the shortcuts so much more important, finding one an immense relief. You're lost in an unfamiliar place, probably with a bunch of souls and only so many heals.
Pretty much why in Elden Ring Lake of Rot (and Swamp of Aeonia to some degree although you could either go around the swamp anyway or traverse with a horse through it without consequences which is bad in a different way) felt nowhere as "scary" as Blighttown; if you're almost dead you can just warp back to the checkpoints if there's no enemies nearby (and there's barely any of them) so the entire dreadful feeling about searching for the nearest bonfire to survive is pretty much gone.
@@ToastieMcMuffin Yeah definitely. I also think having a map indicate exactly where you are also takes some of the fun away, you're not inclined to really think about where you are and remember the routes back to safety.
@@sayso_lmao to be fair, the map is basically useless for the legacy dungeons and only helps with the giant open world
That's why I actively try not to use it.
After my 2nd character (I'm on my 5th by now) I started not using the warp mechanic as much I could.
Rather walk/ride my way to whatever objective I have in mind.
Exceptions made to the Roundtable hold, and Ranni's church (up in the other Plateau)
The cumbersome mechanics of the series are, in a way, the things that used to make it special. Weapon durability meant you had a chance to bond with the Blacksmiths. Lack of fast travel made the world feel huge and cohesive as if you were just a small piece of a grander puzzle. The intricate placement of bonfires/lamps allowed the levels to feel truly labyrinthian ( a feature mostly gone in Elden Ring).
Despite this video being so melancholic, it's nice to come back to after each new "Soulsbourne" release just to remind myself I haven't gone mad.
Exactly the same. This video has so much to think about despite being pretty short
Elden Ring is their most soulless game yet
@@florida_sucks agree. I’d rather play DS2 no cap
Ah, yes. Confirmation bias. The best form of objective reasoning. I too only search for things that agree with my viewpoint instead of realizing it is me that has different taste.
@@bin5803 lmao good job what a man of reason and cleverness you are
I used to heavily disagree with this video but looking back on it, especially with the release of Elden Ring, I agree with almost all of your points
Good on ya
Elden Ring is super boring, and the GRRM writing threw away what I loved about From Software writing / world building.
@@drbuni GRRM didn't write any of it
atleast elden ring kept the ashen estus system, the best healing system theyve done so far
@@pollertry4003 he wrote the backstory and lore, essentially everything that happens up until your tarnished arrives. the actual player storyline is all FromSoft
This video has aged incredibly well with the release of Elden Ring.
While I adore Elden Ring, I can't help but feel like I'm being forced to cheat the system when so many of the new bosses have attacks that are specifically meant to catch me rolling and bowl over the entire arena rather than provide me with an interesting and memorable experience. I'd say most bosses in Elden Ring are harder than most bosses in Dark Souls, but there isn't a single boss experience I've had that I'd compare to Gwyn or Artorias.
I agree that it's tough sometimes to fully appreciate a boss fight in Elden Ring because of how crazy the bosses go on you with constant attack strings full of delayed swings and AOEs. I think this issue started with DS3 when they somehow thought that Bloodborne style bosses and their manic second phases would be something that the less nimble Dark Souls player character could handle. The temptation to resort to cheese has been overwhelming ever since.
I do think that Matt heaps way too much praise on Demon's Souls though (giving it credit for being different with its poison swamp and criticizing subsequent titles for having a poison swamp...I guess he doesn't know what a Fromsoft staple those have been for years before Demon's Souls, lol) and shortchanges the original Dark Souls in terms of its "soul". Demon's Souls is also a refinement of previous Fromsoft ideas, and ironically, its combat is certainly the most innovative thing (and the thing which I believe enabled people who weren't into slow paced dungeon crawler RPGs to develop an interest) about it compared to Fromsoft's previous games like the King's Field series.
He also says that Gwyn's piano music was effective simply because it was different, but that's really underselling it. The sad piano music works brilliantly in the context of the game's story and lore. Not just because it sounds different. In other words, it works because of all those glowing adjectives that he invoked near the end when talking about Demon's Souls. Whether he realizes it or not, a lot of people feel that for Dark Souls and so they may not agree with him that Demon's Souls has more soul than the original Dark Souls (or Bloodborne). Does it have more soul/immersiveness than Dark Souls 2 and 3? Yeah, I think you'd get less argument there (DS2 is polarizing and DS3 is a direct story sequel to DS1).
I think it really comes back to the fact that Demons' Souls (and, theoretically, Dark Souls), were explicitly not made with the intention of being hard. Miyazaki's said over and over again that difficulty was not the point, but you CANNOT tell me that's the case anymore. When I see a boss do a crazy attack combo, I no longer thing "wow this boss/character is so cool," I think "wow, the designers are really trying to kill me with this one," or "well this pattern looks tough to learn."
I love arcadey, game-ass games, Platinum is arguably my favorite studio, so I should theoretically like it when FromSoft makes something more explicitly gamey, but they're just straight-up bad at it IMO.
There's many memorable Elden Ring bosses, like Godfrey or Maliketh
They are difficulty and made you butthurt but doesn't mean they aren't memorable
Honestly I feel like the Ashes system didn't go far enough despite being so heavily pushed. I like the idea of a distraction system to make bosses this fucking unwieldy more manageable, yet still a threat if you're not careful. As of now it's pretty basic.
@@antobatta1551
Just because my comment made you butthurt doesn't mean I think Elden a ring doesn't have good bosses
This video is prophetic and spot on, especially now with Elden Ring.
The open world has still that spark of adventure the series is well know for. However, most of the encounters present you with the same, repetitive scenarios: ambush-infested, 'pull-the-lever-to-unlock-the-boss' dungeons - and spam-party boss fights of delayed, 360 tracking string and sudden input-reading "gotcha" attacks designed to punish you for going in after their 'big-stompy-aoe-10-hit -combo-finisher'.
It reminds me of DS2 in a way, it being still an above average game despite its (many, many) flaws.
But goddamnit, man.
Just... goddamnit.
And... how many of them has "big-stompy-aoe-10-hit-combo-finisher"?
Just curious, I'm in the very beginning of the game right now
@@aldecotan Embrace your adventurous spirit and find out. Enjoy!
DS2 has an excuse and can be forgiven because of it’s horrid development cycle and that Yui Tanimura had to make some agressive changes to make the game even playable on third generation hardware. That the game came out as great as it did is a miracle. Elden Ring doesn’t really have that, plus, DS2’s DLCs really helped make the game an absolute gem.
Can’t wait for the Flames of Old mod.
Hey hey hey, check it out. A person who is not a paid shill or a brainwashed mob that praises Elden Ring as 10/10 masterpiece? I hope you share my depression because every time I watch this video I am more dead inside than I was before. I miss Demon's Souls so much.
I swear the AoEs that just about every single boss has exist has a lazy counterbalance to ashes.
They still can't figure out a way to make the AI any better/it still sucks balls at dealing with multiple targets. So "why not just have every boss randomly explode the ground after their 12-hit combo!" to hit all the spirits.
So true about Bosses delaying their attacks to throw you off guard...that's literally the only reason Nameless king was challenging...i would roll too early
and there’s nothing wrong with that AT ALL!
The comment about Maiden Astraea rings so true. Elden Ring would've NEVER had one of its culminating bosses be a normal woman, who blows her brains out if you kill her bodyguard. Just could not have happened. Yet, she stands as more mechanically interesting than anything not named Starscourge Radahn or Fire Giant, and the only boss that comes close narratively to her is Hoarah Loux. Such a damn shame.
If Commander Gaius were from Demon's or Dark Souls, I guarantee From would've added a way to cheese him by baiting him and making him charge off the cliff like with Ceaseless Discharge. But modern From has to make every boss the same now, no interesting mechanics or ideas allowed.
@@sw-oe8iv Because of the playerbase. Look what happened to Dark Souls 2. It had the most amount of interesting ideas and unique boss mechanics out of ALL the FromSoft games, and people absolutely hated it, INCLUDING MATTHEW. So the community only has themselves to blame, Fromsoft did the analysis and the community vastly prefers rollspam to interesting mechanics.
@avelonzx I guess you can say DS2's bosses were filled with unique ideas, but slapping boss health bars on a rat with a Mohawk or copying the Undead Burg Gargoyle but with half a dozen at the same time aren't *good* ideas, plus that game is still filled with design choices to just make it harder (spam-ambushes, incredible amount of multi-boss boss fights, groups of enemies that aggro simultaneously so you can't bait them individually, ridiculous enemy tracking) which were all increased relative to DS1, it wasn't some return to Demons Souls style design
@@WarCriminalPhlox That's like saying Dark Souls 1 bosses suck because Capra Demon, Centipede Demon, Firesage Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Ceaseless Discharge, Pinwheel, Bed of Chaos and Stray Demon are all bad bosses. Every game has bad aspects. You don't refute any of my claims by bringing in a few bad examples.. Not every boss in Demon's Souls was a slam dunk either, Leechmonger, Dirty Colossus and Dragon God are all really bad. The dragons were also very lackluster and lazy, yet I would still say Demon's Souls had creative boss design. Just a few counter examples don't refute it.
@avelonzx what do you think are the good unique bosses of DS2 then? I certainly don't remember any, except maybe the concept of the Medusa poison arena. I find it hard to remember any bosses at all from that game, it more often than not just slaps boss healthbars and music over enemies that could hardly be considered bosses at all, and many involve spamming the player with minor enemies alongside them
it’s not that he was prophetic, it’s that the contemporary issues he identified have only gotten worse with time
Since when? What fromsoft games released since this video aired? Elden Ring had obviously a different focus but still showed some great unexpected ideas
@@pawlogates There was Sekiro, which leaned very heavily into action part of action RPG. The light stealth mechanics and movement were new and cool, but the main combat boils down to "press attack and block with good timing" far more than before.
@@pawlogates Since Dark Souls 2, arguably. Elden Ring may have different focus, but the template it used is literally the exact same as Soulsborne with slight changes, hence why it still falls under the same criticisms.
@@slinger8839 I don't think it's fair to drag Sekiro into the equation. They never advertised it as an RPG or Souls games, the game is too different to be criticized in the same manner as Soulsborne.
Besides, those who think that its main combat boils down to "press attack and block with good timing" definitely didn't care enough to explore all the other options that the game actually offers, and it's not in the same vein as Bloodborne's transforming weapons, hence I'm questioning people ability to truly assess the game's quality.
@@slinger8839 i think thats way too oversimplified. Sekiro has very complex combat with few simple systems.
with every new souls game the core thesis of this video gets more and more relevant
The over-reliance on dodge rolling is really killing the series. I prefer to play without a shield and I'm one of the few psychopaths out there who actually likes the ADP system in DS2 but even for me it's becoming too much. Spending an hour trying to beat one lousy Godskin Noble in ER is no fun at all, and why even bother having all these neat new mechanics, Ashes of War and spells when most boss fights just boil down to a boring series of hit and run attacks against an opponent with a gigantic health pool? It just feels like an endurance test.
ADP enjoyers stay winning. Although if you're playing Scholar rather than Vanilla you really miss those IFrames in some of the early ganks.
Sometimes I think the series would've been vastly improved if invincibility frames had been removed from rolling. Maybe give 50% damage reduction if you're hit while rolling, but the magical I-frames you get from somersaulting have become the single most important mechanic in the entire series, and it's rather silly.
Use the mimick tear 👍
Honestly Elden Ring is still a step in the right direction. I literally hate Dark Souls 3 with how they killed shields in that game, but in ER they absolutely made sure they are more than viable. I killed Radahn in the DLC with a 90% damage absorb medium shield with a heavy rolling character and it wasn't even that hard. Guard Counters were the best addition to these games since the Estus Flask, and with the new Deflect Tear it's even better. I think Miyazaki definitely had some mid-life crisis around 2016-2019 with DS3 and Sekiro but he is back on track with Elden Ring at least somewhat. The only problem really with ER for me are the boss designs, nothing else and tbh bosses were never the highlights of these games for me.
@@avelonzx Completely disagree. Elden Ring seemed like a complete doubling-down on all things later Souls games were doing wrong, while copying the most superficial elements of those games, and taking place in an "open-world" just for the sake of it. It also ruined invasions to the point that they may as well not even exist.
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1, Bloodborne and Sekiro are the games that Fromsoftware prioritized their visions in instead of what the fans want.
Well, in DS3 they still tried something new for the formula, too, even though there was a lot of fanservice. At least there were some gimmicky bosses and experiential moments like what Matthewmatosis discussed in this video. It's really Elden Ring that turned into what Matthew feared the most, just a ton of samey bosses with no focus on these experiential moments like in DeS and DS whatsoever. It's really sad, ER is still a good game overall, but I'd call it one of the weakest modern FromSoftware games, better only than DS2.
@Jurglenuts Still a fun game to run through though, personally.
@Jurglenuts Thanks, drew it myself.
I know quite a lot of people enjoy DS2 for its own unique flair. I personally couldn't get into it enough to want to beat it.
I'm probably never playing DS3 again, but I found it replayable because of the pacing. You go from location to location which are all quite distinct from each other. Not in the context of the series (poison swampsss), but in the context of the game.
Bb is nowhere near the level of Sekiro or ER it’s just the same as ds3 with slightly more attack options that are mostly useless.
I hate when someone judges a game’s complexity solely of the amount of attack options you have, that’s when you get brain dead takes like ER combat is bad because it’s simple, they don’t even realize that the enemy/boss design is what makes souls games complex.
It’s equally as bad a take as saying dmc is a button masher, because even on dmd its easy (except for dmc3 but that has a very simplistic combat and most enemies aren’t able to be juggled) completely brain dead.
Remove Bloodborne from that list, then yes.
wow the criticism of bosses holding attacks too long is even more relevant today with elden ring, that thing basically ruins every fight in the game
Imo what really ruins them for me is the lack of innovation, it's practically just Roll Souls again
In elden ring they give you more openings to be more offensive
th-cam.com/video/fo4dXJmd1cQ/w-d-xo.html
@@kizuma4269 I like how half of that video, which has "advanced" in the title, is just explaining the same stuff that's told to the player during the tutorial (dodge, parry, guard counters) and the other half is just obvious crap (punish attacks with long recovery animations, position yourself properly). I don't think Souls fans know what "advanced" means
@@SealedReality "Advanced" in the title?
This is exactly what I think of Soulsborne. However, I'd like to add, that in many cases, the game you play first makes the biggest impression on you. The order I played the games was: Dark Souls II, Dark Souls, SOTFS, Bloodborne, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 3. Even though DSII is considered by most to be the worst of the series, I really liked it (and still do) because it was my introduction to the series and I have so many great memories from that game. Yet, I have to say, that Demon's Souls by far is the best ADVENTURE (as was brilliantly pointed out in the video). The overall atmosphere, the sounds, the silence, Flamelurker's and Manhunters boss themes that add to the feeling that the boss is going to be a big challenge... It's all there. The game makes you FEEL. Not only anger and frustration from a defeat or joy from a victory, but also despair and anxiety (Tower of Latria, Swamp). Fucking hell that moment when I saw that red phantom heading towards me from the darkness at the swamp... The ONLY time in Soulsborne I got scared. Also, in my opinion the game has by far the best endings. They both seem so final, you kind of know what is going to happen and there's no need for a sequel. The only regret is, that one broken archstone...
I completely agree, I played DSII and Bloodborne first, but Demon Souls is the first one I finished so I really wanted that level of detail in other games in the series. I do still like all the entries in the series tho, idk what people think about Sekiro but I'm a sucker for over the top action so I love it
I went DaS1->DaS2->BB->DeS->DaS3. Demon's Souls is probably my favorite overall, followed closely by BB and DaS1, both who do some things better, but lacks in other areas.
that Demon's Souls by far is the best ADVENTURE (as was brilliantly pointed out in the video). The overall atmosphere, the sounds, the silence, Flamelurker's and Manhunters boss themes that add to the feeling that the boss is going to be a big challenge... It's all there" all these things are done better in new gen souls games. frankly this whole video can be boiled down to nostalgia.
I was really hesitant to play Demon's Souls as I knew it didn't have interconnected world. After finally trying it out for the first time this year via emulation, I'm suprised to say it even surpasses Dark Souls 1 for me. So no, it's not just nostalgia. There's a lot of things Demon's Souls simply did better when it comes to level design, world building and atmosphere.
I love DS2 the most but DeS has absolutely the best atmosphere out of all the games. Flamelurker’s theme still gives me chills.
My personal list is DS2 > DeS > BB > DS1 > DS3 > ER.
This is why I love Darksouls 1 and despise Darksouls 3.
Anyone remember Taurus demon on the bridge? The moment you realised you could lure him to the tower and drop down, killing him that way? I sure did and I felt smart for figuring it out.
Now take Pontav Sullivan (thats spelled correct right?). I didnt feel any relief finishing that boss, nor did I have the feeling I figured the boss out. I just spammed roll and block, hoping for the best.
Darksouls 3 is about KNOWING the boss, rather than figuring it out. Discovering that using the destroyed pillars during Smough and ornstein made it easier, adding to the fight. Not because it was an easy mode option, but because you learned and adapted. No boss in Darksouls 3 has an enviremontal mechanic. None, the only thing you need to figure out is when to roll. And that in itself says enough.
alturius4 Man, I feel the same way about ceaseless discharge. I felt so clever when I hide in one of the crevices in the rock, then proceeded to beat the hell out of his arms/tentacles when he tried to hit me. Kind of cheesy, but clearly intended by the devs.
Dark Souls has a few of those Things. For example i remember how amazing my first fight against the abyss watchers was, when i noticed that the third one attacked the other 2 watchers. You can use the area against a lot of bosses like aldrich, Crystal sage, ancient wyvern, yhorm, twin princes.
“Timing and memorizing animations”
Pontiff Sulyvahn is a bad example to use because he has the shade in phase 2 that does what the real Sulyvahn does in advance and you can use to your advantage if you figure out how it works
@@dkDolphino You prove my point. DS3 bosses are all cases of "Bash your head against the boss wall and be sure they crack first" rather than using the environment to create strategies. DS3 bosses are for 90% "Simon says roll" fights.
And those kind of fights are okay, but Sulyvhan is rolling and wait for a chance to strike. While some of the bosses in previous game gave you the chance to CREATE your own oppertunities
The final boss for the DLC of Elden Ring feels like a massive shitpost. The phase 2 for that fight is genuinely mindboggling. What the fuck were they thinking? Even with mimic tear I was struggling lmfaooooi
I calmed down a little bit and I do think overall the ER dlc is p good. The visuals are excellent but the open world is expectedly empty for the most part. P much all of the bosses are rollslop but I think Midra and Messmer are great despite that. The rollslop bosses can also be reasonably doable without mimic tear if you're patient enough but the final boss is actually retarded. Gaius took me like four fucking hours or some shit without mimic tear and I just broke down and cheesed the fuck out of the final boss because I was so sick of the dlc at that point lmfao
Really roll slop? Damn ig sekiro is parry slop, dmc is combo slop, and beyonetta is which time slop lmao.
@Jurglenuts do you call everything you don’t enjoy slop?
Many people enjoy ER combat and its much more than roll slop, you can jump over, low profile, position, use ashes to avoid attacks, deflect, and parry ER has a lot more to offer than just the roll it’s up to the player to experiment.
Go watch a single ongbal video.
@@MakioGoHardio From Soft fanboys still don't understand the combat in their games is nothing special and mechanically shallow.
@@JohnKasarinlan did I say that it was you illiterate bozo.
Man, Elden ring nightreign, the alleged Sony acquisition of fromsoft, this video has aged so well
exactly why i came back to this video. i feel fromsoft has gone away with souls and has instead opted for surface level action games :(
I think Bloodborne was the only exception, because that game in its own right isn't exactly a Souls game, but they really got rid of Souls when DS3 released. Elden Ring was a grave disappointment with its combat and story. Exploration etc was great I would say
@ it’s quite sad. I’d certainly rather play elden ring over something like black ops 6, but even the good stuff coming out these days is still a far cry from the stuff that came before.
"A game where you press dodge at the right time."
Perfect description.
Every game can be simplified into a statement like that
@@lucasandrescosta391 nup
Lucas Andres Costa
The quote was about what the series has become.
“It went from a game about outsmarting your opponent to a series where you press dodge at the right time.”
He described his preferred experience the same way, one simple sentence. It’s just that the former is of far higher quality.
@@lucasandrescosta391 Not really. You can play tetris, and if you try to play the game by focusing on hitting buttons at certain times, you won't get very far at all.
In dark souls, if all you do is focus on rolling at the right time, and attack when you don't roll, you'll be able to beat the entire game quite easily.
The fact that all digital games result in pressing buttons at certain times does not mean that all game-play revolves around pressing buttons at certain times.
@@La0bouchere What i meant by my original comment is that anyone can reduce a game into a simplistic statement about it's gameplay removing all nuance about it in the process.
For Tetris it would be something like "A game where you place bricks in the right spot", that statement doesn't say anything about the strategic value of the game and how hard it is to actually think about where you place the bricks in advance, to plan ahead.
Same thing for the Dark Souls statement, there is much more to the game than just rolling at the right time. The statement does not say anything about how hard it is to actually dodge at the right times.
What about how timings vary between bosses, how the game tries to trick you into panick rolling... You have to be smart in the way you roll, in different directions depending on enemy pattern, sometimes you would end up too far to counter attack if you roll the wrong way, the stamina management side of it, etc.
Plus, Dark Souls is much more than that simple statement, what about build diversity, items enhancement, exploration, etc.
You are doing the same with your statement: "In dark souls, if all you do is focus on rolling at the right time, and attack when you don't roll, you'll be able to beat the entire game quite easily."
You can do the same thing with any game and make it sound easier or less complex than it actually is.
"In football, if all you do is focus on passing the ball at the right time, and score when you are close to the goalie, you'll be able to win games quite easily."
"In Dota 2, if all you do is focus on farming at the right time, and killing enemie heroes when they are in range, you'll be able to rise your ranking quite easily."
etc, etc.
This video just keeps on giving especially with Elden Ring being what it is.
Edit: Returning to this video after Erdtree DLC. Matt is not just a very skilled critic he's a bloody prophet
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 always felt very inspired by old school Survival Horror games to me. The combat is actually pretty similar to Silent Hill but more complex and refined, and the combat was always just a means to experience the world and it's harsh environments. The different weapons and builds were just there for extra variety and replayability, but the games after Dark Souls 1 seemed to think they were Devil May Cry and the world was just a backdrop to experience the combat.
I think that's not giving 3 enough credit, though. Because it is also very intricate in it's level design, although I agree that a lot of things are just in there because they are a "staple" at this point. LIKE THAT GODDAMN SWAMP!
the first castlevania game too
@Nosferatu Zodd What are you talking about, no one even likes Dark souls 2 nowdays it seems and alot of stuff was removed in DS3 and brought back to DS1 Style. Also not sure about your interpretation of the world hated you in DS1, i felt more like the chosen one and everyone tryed to help me... somehow and went mad at some point. Gothic 1 has a world which shows you that everyone hates you :D
High quality comment, I completely agree.
With the release of the Elden RIng DLC what a perfect time to revisit this video, Saying as how Elden Ring is just a culmination of all the things mentioned in this video.
Exactly! Elden Ring is even worse because they made bosses move like they were in Sekiro, but kept the gameplay movement from Dark Souls 3.
@@TarsoJahnRibeiro I wouldn't even say Sekiro at this point, some of the DLC bosses act like they're from something like Devil may cry or Bayonetta, only with endless combo's and you have little to no utility apart from your Dark souls 3.5 moveset to do anything about it.
Absolutely
They took delayed attacks and multiplied them by 100
@@moonraven6145it's annoying because we still using demon souls combat.
@@based-ys9um Yeah, that's a good point.
Lol pin pointed Elden Ring DLC waaay before Elden Eing even, respect
the DLC bosses and legacy dungeons were peak, only thing that sucked was the exploration