Mephistopholes actually prevents card draw completely once hellbent. It replaces the card draw with discarding a card, and then draws a card *only* if a card was discarded. Otherwise, they just mill.
Something important not mentioned in the deck tech is that Orcish Bowmasters can be flashed in in response to Anvil’s loot trigger after being topdecked as your natural draw for the turn, which means it’s an engine/threat that can be deployed while both players are “locked” under Chainvil of Bogistopheles.
28:57 Draw 3 cards is according to the rules translated to draw a card three times. Card drawing has this special replacement that makes it into separate events, this is different than mill 10 cards, exile 10 cards, discard etc. which doesn't have this replacement. That is why when opponent has oracle of mul daya and draws 10 cards you get to see all of them and why dredge players in legacy get to reorder the cards they dredge. So hellbent draw 3 under chains is mill 3.
45:19 technically the right play was to fetch Underground Sea before the TS because it would’ve let you recast bowmasters because of high tide. Unfortunately you drew it so wasn’t even an option at this point.
Chains just says: If you would draw EXTRA cards, rummage instead. If you can't discard for the rummage, you mill instead of drawing. Chains only lets you +1 in your draw step.
Game 1 of round 5 you had a cool line to Contamination lock them instead of holding up Saga activations. Play Contamination instead of holding up the first construct, then you can make the second construct in response to Contamination's trigger to have something to sacrifice, tutor Currency Converter, Cabal Therapy yourself to put a rogue under Converter, then you have 3 draws and 2 loots to find either Bowmaster or Mox Diamond to build up the full lock before you run out of rogues to sac to Contamination. (Mox Diamond puts a land under Converter to make a treasure for the second color for Minsc, Bowmaster buys time for Converter to loot for treasure and play loam so Saga can feed Contamination Constructs while you wait to tutor the diamond for Minsc). 5 looks at 7 outs is pretty good, and seems way safer than betting they don't have a turn 3 play.
In Round 4, you said that High tide can’t win with 2 lands, but with a good 7+draw they can do a slightly risky win attempt on turn 2. If they have in those 8 2x Islands (or other) 2x Candelabra 2x High tide 1x Minds desire Turn 1: Island into candelabra Turn 2: High tide, untap both lands with candelabra from the 2 mana on second land. Then play high tide and the other candelabra off the 2 mana from the first island and untap both islands again from the second. You have 1 blue mana floating plus 6 more to play the minds desire to flip four cards. If you have a third high tide or a cantrip fired, desire for 5 is not terrible with an extra card or several extra mana. You could also spiral instead with 6 new open mana. This is kinda bad though so you’re probably safe assuming they will be generally waiting until 3 lands, and they are probably kinda unlikely to keep that 7 anyway because it collapses easy to interaction. However, I could see something like this being done into a turn 1 grislebrand/archon by the opponent or some other fast clock that is unlikely to interact at instant speed.
Took me a while to form this comment because my true feelings towards Chains of Mephistophilis are NSFW so i cant share them in polite company. But also I find it one of the cards that realy shows off when someone is in content creator mode. I feel a lot of the rules based questions asked during the video have been adressed on this chanel before including in a video specifically about legacy judge skills. So we know he could work through all of them with a bit of thought and knows them well enough to make smart and educational content even if the education is occasionally pointing out the questions that arent obvious when putting these cards in a deck. I used to play a lot of decks with chains alongs side loam and sylvan library and the way all these things interact took me a while when that was the only thing I was playing. So its always impressive to see him and the rest of the eternal glory crew pick up these decks and get through a league with so many disperate strategies. Loved the video as always, thank you.
@33:00 you keep mentioning that baiting the veil with cabal therapy will make their brainstorm in hand worse, but you stripped the brainstorm turn 1 with the therapy
When a card says “Draw X cards” what that really means as far as rules is “Draw a card” X times. So Divination is “Draw a card. Draw a card”. So if your hand is empty and you Divination with a Chains in play, you just mill 2 cards. If you do it with 1 card in hand, you discard that card, draw, discard that card, then draw. So the ring basically has then either mill that many cards if they are hellbent or rummage that many times if they aren’t
Sorry if I'm missing something. In the first game against high tide where you concede as they are about to brain freeze the whole deck (46:00), could you dredge loam, which would be milled, to replace the draw in your draw step to not lose to decking? And then swing for lethal with the 9/9 army?
@@BoshNRoll All the magic I've played and I still didn't know this. I love how many obscure situations occur in this game. (dredge sure would have no downside if you could do this, I guess)
I was thinking of the OP leaving the high tide in exile instead of casting and I think it might have been the correct decision so that fae of wishes could fetch it from exile? I could be super wrong I don't play legacy just watch x.x
In the last game against storm, did they even have the red mana to cast burning wish? Without LED to go hellbent for infernal tutor, wouldn't they have to keep nausing for one of their 2 remaining petals to win?
58:13 I’m not familiar with the Creative Technique deck. Can anyone explain how it has a deterministic line to Emrakul? It looks like it has a deterministic line to casting Creative Technique four times, but it’s possible that none of them or their copies hit Emrakul. And though it didn’t happen here, it’s also possible that none of them or their copies hit Maelstrom Wanderer, giving a one-turn reprieve. (Also, if they don’t Demonstrate their first Creative Technique, it looks like you can gut it with Surgical Extraction mid-combo?)
Searching up one stock list, there’s something like a 74%-97% chance of hitting Maelstrom Wanderer or Emrakul depending on how many times they Demonstrate and whether they lead with Creative Technique or a cascade spell. There’s not a lot of difference between Maelstrom Wanderer + giant board and Emrakul, but Maelstrom Wanderer can get hit by Snuff Out or Swords to Plowshares before combat, buying an extra turn, which could be relevant for a different deck. 🤷
It's not a deterministic line. The idea is that it hits often enough that it wins more games than it loses. It's basically just a Dredge deck wearing a different outfit.
so the way chains works is like this draws are replaced with loots, but if they were hellbent i.e. unable to discard before their draw, it is instead a mill and they do not draw.
ปีที่แล้ว +1
wait sticker cards are coming to MTGO? or are there just because they exist IRL? (re: @21:59 they appear at the "choose a non-land card name dialogue - never saw them before)
Jank combo tucked into Bowmaster Nic Fit? Stop! I only be so aroused! My only comment would be lack of removal for big things and lack of sac outlets (i.e. Contamination, and probably Paradox Zone, should be Grist).
Chains is basically the single best card at 1-2 to absolutely delete one ring artifact piles. Nullrod turns off their shit, sure, but Chains encourages them to spend 4 mana to deal damage to themselves and then die when they realise it's only going to get worse lol
Unlike Narset, et al., Chains is symmetric hate. If you're not going to play the busted draw and cantrips, you have to do so much more than play Chains
@@rekenner well what if you play it in a deck that wants to discard a bunch of cards? Ancestral recall is now pay 3 mana discard three cards, if you have no cards left mill the rest, or you can make recall target your opponent to make them discard 3, not to mention chains would completely counter the one ring because there goes half your deck
@rekenner I remember back in the day it was played in a deck with dark confidant and anvil of bogardan, along with blood moon and chalice of the void, I just want to see if a deck similar to this would be able to win atleast once in the format because now we have no many busted things we could pull off with any card, chains would go especially well with deathrite shaman I would think too
Weird. I'd rather see such brews than mainstream content. Thing is, he's mostly donation decks these days so it's whatever people have paid to see played! :)
He recently did Stryfo Pile, which is a well established deck that's had good performances. He's also often a player of various classic UW and UWX control shells, like his recent Bant Ring and Jeskai Eorlingas lists.
The best part of waking up is Bowmasters in my cup.
Imagine going to take a sip of your morning brew, and instead of coffee, you get sniped by an angry mob of tiny orc archers
@@JDPower-ej3rx Still beats taking a sip only to find your cup is full of maggoty bread for the past three stinking days!
Yeaaa, we need some meat
Bowmasters is the glue holding jank together. It's just that powerful
This is the best part of my day now, thank you
Mephistopholes actually prevents card draw completely once hellbent. It replaces the card draw with discarding a card, and then draws a card *only* if a card was discarded. Otherwise, they just mill.
Chains doesn't let you draw if you're hellbent. It just says "mill a card" not mill and then draw.
They should have read the flow chart!
I have played this game for a long time and still just ask a judge for chains almost every time.
@@10kfreemensometimes a judge just gives one, if you ask nicely.
Something important not mentioned in the deck tech is that Orcish Bowmasters can be flashed in in response to Anvil’s loot trigger after being topdecked as your natural draw for the turn, which means it’s an engine/threat that can be deployed while both players are “locked” under Chainvil of Bogistopheles.
I feel like Bowmaster may be a pretty solid nicfit upgrade, functionally able to act as another sac outlet~
ooh yeah, being able to just turn 1 Veteran, Turn 2 Bowmaster, kill veteran.
Or with Academy Rector
@@stephenj4638Rector has 2 toughness
28:57 Draw 3 cards is according to the rules translated to draw a card three times. Card drawing has this special replacement that makes it into separate events, this is different than mill 10 cards, exile 10 cards, discard etc. which doesn't have this replacement. That is why when opponent has oracle of mul daya and draws 10 cards you get to see all of them and why dredge players in legacy get to reorder the cards they dredge. So hellbent draw 3 under chains is mill 3.
45:19 technically the right play was to fetch Underground Sea before the TS because it would’ve let you recast bowmasters because of high tide. Unfortunately you drew it so wasn’t even an option at this point.
In round 3 game 1 you cabal therapied their brainstorm, but kept playing like they had it in their hand fyi. Deck looks interesting, that's for sure!
Chains just says: If you would draw EXTRA cards, rummage instead. If you can't discard for the rummage, you mill instead of drawing.
Chains only lets you +1 in your draw step.
Game 1 of round 5 you had a cool line to Contamination lock them instead of holding up Saga activations. Play Contamination instead of holding up the first construct, then you can make the second construct in response to Contamination's trigger to have something to sacrifice, tutor Currency Converter, Cabal Therapy yourself to put a rogue under Converter, then you have 3 draws and 2 loots to find either Bowmaster or Mox Diamond to build up the full lock before you run out of rogues to sac to Contamination. (Mox Diamond puts a land under Converter to make a treasure for the second color for Minsc, Bowmaster buys time for Converter to loot for treasure and play loam so Saga can feed Contamination Constructs while you wait to tutor the diamond for Minsc). 5 looks at 7 outs is pretty good, and seems way safer than betting they don't have a turn 3 play.
In Round 4, you said that High tide can’t win with 2 lands, but with a good 7+draw they can do a slightly risky win attempt on turn 2. If they have in those 8
2x Islands (or other)
2x Candelabra
2x High tide
1x Minds desire
Turn 1: Island into candelabra
Turn 2: High tide, untap both lands with candelabra from the 2 mana on second land. Then play high tide and the other candelabra off the 2 mana from the first island and untap both islands again from the second. You have 1 blue mana floating plus 6 more to play the minds desire to flip four cards. If you have a third high tide or a cantrip fired, desire for 5 is not terrible with an extra card or several extra mana. You could also spiral instead with 6 new open mana.
This is kinda bad though so you’re probably safe assuming they will be generally waiting until 3 lands, and they are probably kinda unlikely to keep that 7 anyway because it collapses easy to interaction. However, I could see something like this being done into a turn 1 grislebrand/archon by the opponent or some other fast clock that is unlikely to interact at instant speed.
I'd absolutely love to see that round 5 deck played on this channel looks a blast
As soon as I can get the cards.
Ii saw it in the tournament reports of mtg goldfish under the name of "Mississippi river"
Took me a while to form this comment because my true feelings towards Chains of Mephistophilis are NSFW so i cant share them in polite company.
But also I find it one of the cards that realy shows off when someone is in content creator mode. I feel a lot of the rules based questions asked during the video have been adressed on this chanel before including in a video specifically about legacy judge skills. So we know he could work through all of them with a bit of thought and knows them well enough to make smart and educational content even if the education is occasionally pointing out the questions that arent obvious when putting these cards in a deck.
I used to play a lot of decks with chains alongs side loam and sylvan library and the way all these things interact took me a while when that was the only thing I was playing. So its always impressive to see him and the rest of the eternal glory crew pick up these decks and get through a league with so many disperate strategies.
Loved the video as always, thank you.
@33:00 you keep mentioning that baiting the veil with cabal therapy will make their brainstorm in hand worse, but you stripped the brainstorm turn 1 with the therapy
This is the coolest looking decklist I've seen in quite a while
I agree, and I agree with Bosh's suggestions for it. It'd be fun to see it revamped and revisited.
I don't know if this deck is any good, but it sure is great!
Been wanting to brew a land's, dack and bowmasters hybrid pile. This is pretty much what I was imagining.
This would be a great puzzle box deck
I just saw the title and thought, this is going to be beautiful
The one advantage of this deck is your opponents will never guess what you’ll play next
When a card says “Draw X cards” what that really means as far as rules is “Draw a card” X times. So Divination is “Draw a card. Draw a card”. So if your hand is empty and you Divination with a Chains in play, you just mill 2 cards. If you do it with 1 card in hand, you discard that card, draw, discard that card, then draw. So the ring basically has then either mill that many cards if they are hellbent or rummage that many times if they aren’t
Round one has me shouting, "2 Chains!!!"
just notice that the cabal therapy naming screen now has unfinity cards
With all this rummaging, this needs the Grief/Troll/Reanimate/Thoughtseize package instead of the Vet/Cabal/Anvil package
I like these high concept decks
Yep, only a truly stoned person could make this.
Sorry if I'm missing something. In the first game against high tide where you concede as they are about to brain freeze the whole deck (46:00), could you dredge loam, which would be milled, to replace the draw in your draw step to not lose to decking? And then swing for lethal with the 9/9 army?
You need to fulfill the dredge number. You can’t dredge 3 with 0 cards in deck.
@@BoshNRoll Ahh okay cool thank you for clearing that up!
@@BoshNRoll All the magic I've played and I still didn't know this. I love how many obscure situations occur in this game.
(dredge sure would have no downside if you could do this, I guess)
I notice they finally added the unfinity cards, seeing how the name a card prompt looks so weird.
I wonder if puzzle box would be better than chains
I was thinking of the OP leaving the high tide in exile instead of casting and I think it might have been the correct decision so that fae of wishes could fetch it from exile? I could be super wrong I don't play legacy just watch x.x
In the last game against storm, did they even have the red mana to cast burning wish? Without LED to go hellbent for infernal tutor, wouldn't they have to keep nausing for one of their 2 remaining petals to win?
58:13 I’m not familiar with the Creative Technique deck. Can anyone explain how it has a deterministic line to Emrakul? It looks like it has a deterministic line to casting Creative Technique four times, but it’s possible that none of them or their copies hit Emrakul. And though it didn’t happen here, it’s also possible that none of them or their copies hit Maelstrom Wanderer, giving a one-turn reprieve.
(Also, if they don’t Demonstrate their first Creative Technique, it looks like you can gut it with Surgical Extraction mid-combo?)
Searching up one stock list, there’s something like a 74%-97% chance of hitting Maelstrom Wanderer or Emrakul depending on how many times they Demonstrate and whether they lead with Creative Technique or a cascade spell.
There’s not a lot of difference between Maelstrom Wanderer + giant board and Emrakul, but Maelstrom Wanderer can get hit by Snuff Out or Swords to Plowshares before combat, buying an extra turn, which could be relevant for a different deck. 🤷
It's not a deterministic line. The idea is that it hits often enough that it wins more games than it loses. It's basically just a Dredge deck wearing a different outfit.
Shame I swore to never play with ub exclusives. Punishing dack will always have a place in my heart.
I think 2 snuff out in the 75 would have save you in most of the games
so the way chains works is like this draws are replaced with loots, but if they were hellbent i.e. unable to discard before their draw, it is instead a mill and they do not draw.
wait sticker cards are coming to MTGO? or are there just because they exist IRL? (re: @21:59 they appear at the "choose a non-land card name dialogue - never saw them before)
According to a tweet I saw they may be coming to MTGO because they think they may have a work around for the popular ones. But they aren't sure yet.
Day 9 of proclaiming my love of bosh n roll
Obligatory algorithmic contribution
Jank combo tucked into Bowmaster Nic Fit? Stop! I only be so aroused!
My only comment would be lack of removal for big things and lack of sac outlets (i.e. Contamination, and probably Paradox Zone, should be Grist).
TASTE THE CHAIN
waste not looks sick in this deck
Chains of Meth? Sign me up
Chains is basically the single best card at 1-2 to absolutely delete one ring artifact piles. Nullrod turns off their shit, sure, but Chains encourages them to spend 4 mana to deal damage to themselves and then die when they realise it's only going to get worse lol
Both bosh and thrabenU making a deck with contamination back to back lol
I wonder how chains will do in vintage, it's draw hate and most other draw hate cards are restricted like narset and stuff
Unlike Narset, et al., Chains is symmetric hate. If you're not going to play the busted draw and cantrips, you have to do so much more than play Chains
@@rekenner well what if you play it in a deck that wants to discard a bunch of cards? Ancestral recall is now pay 3 mana discard three cards, if you have no cards left mill the rest, or you can make recall target your opponent to make them discard 3, not to mention chains would completely counter the one ring because there goes half your deck
@@RIP_Texpert that isn't how Classics works and is still far too weak for Vintage
@rekenner not saying it's good, I'm saying it's different and unexpected
@rekenner I remember back in the day it was played in a deck with dark confidant and anvil of bogardan, along with blood moon and chalice of the void, I just want to see if a deck similar to this would be able to win atleast once in the format because now we have no many busted things we could pull off with any card, chains would go especially well with deathrite shaman I would think too
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i love you but when 4k? i need you in my life with more detail
Jeez this deck is awful
Are you drunk this video?
Many videos tbh
Still good videos though LMAO
Would like to see more competitive mainstream decks instead of such brews
Weird. I'd rather see such brews than mainstream content. Thing is, he's mostly donation decks these days so it's whatever people have paid to see played! :)
Booooo, we’re sick of delver!
He recently did Stryfo Pile, which is a well established deck that's had good performances. He's also often a player of various classic UW and UWX control shells, like his recent Bant Ring and Jeskai Eorlingas lists.
People vote with their wallet on this channel with donation decks. If you'd like to see something, pay for it!
I agree with half that statement. Competitive decks that are not mainstream, 5-0 brews, are the best.