I think you're missing the one big reason commander players crack fetches as soon as they play them. Searching for a single copy of a card in a 100 card deck and shuffling up takes *significantly* longer than searching for one of multiple copies in a 60 card deck. By the time you've found the card and shuffled, it's often already your turn again. If you do that at the last possible second, you're going to have 3 other players sitting there waiting for you to finish... which (and you did touch on this) is just going to make them more likely to target you.
this saves a lot of time because it starts to add up during a game if everyone is waiting to the end step to crack fetches and sit there searching. Better to crack and pass if your not planning on playing anything after and just search while the next player starts their turn
Yup! This is what I was thinking also lol. Also searching while you pass the turn (provided no one else has any actions on your turn of course) keeps the pace of the game flowing. It's just a shortcut. It's actually kind of frustrating when another player *doesn't* do this and we have to just sit and wait for "hours" while they dig through their deck just to end their turn immediately after. 😂
Casting after attacking is just wise gameplay. If it doesn't effect combat there is no point casting it at all in your 1st main phase. I win more games by simply playing cards at the appropriate time, and making sure that everyone at the table knows who has priority. A lot of people wait around for someone to volunteer their removal or counterspells, but if you just gently remind people who actually has priority, a lot of people will step up because they have it and they can do something about it.
My biggest difference is the "commander players want to do stuff". I came from standard and the first few commander games I played I would really mess with the "biggest threat" on the board. My decks had lots of targeted removal and contol/lock mechanics. I might not win the game but I was going to make sure you knew I was playing. I then started to realize that the format is casual and the guy I'm playing against might only get in a commander game or two a month. I now let people do "the thing" and enjoy seeing the other players build their board state.
The biggest thing I've noticed about Commander players that people don't talk about is that they're basically Jurassic Park T-Rexes, in that their vision only notices things that are moving. Do-nothing planeswalkers get attacked because they're getting ticked up, while value engines that quietly give you extra cards every turn stay basically untouched.
The biggest thing I've noticed about non-EDH players is that they're constantly rude to EDH players for no reason other than as a coping mechanism to help them handle the fact that their chosen format will never be as popular as EDH.
@@peachykeen3194 I play primarily EDH. My main decks are Rocco, Ratadrabik, Delney and Horde of notions. You took this comment that was not aimed at you personally because you realized that you are a horrible player.
That's a easy one: the grudges dont end with the match. "You remember that time when you did THAT to me?" "Bruh thats was like two weeks ago" "I attack you with all my infinite tokens" "So everyone's dead?" "No, just you"
Cracking at endstep may be the right play but in four player game it's gonna be adding up time if each player does that, each player searching and shuffling while each other player waits that you can start your turn, it adds up alot of gametime
A lot of the reason why commander players play the way they do is to keep things moving along. Everyone hates it when you waste time to search your shock land when you could have been doing it during someone else's turn.
The weirdest mentality to me is how *so* many players play to win but get upset when their stuff gets interacted with and/or someone plays some kind of wincon that they disagree with (I.e. combos or infect). Are we playing to win or are we playing casually? I’m not gonna sit around and let you build a big board of Dinos/dragons/tokens if I can do something about it, and I’ll like the game less if you build that board then play with your food just so people can do more. It’s one thing to avoid attacking someone cause they’re blatantly very behind when playing jank, another thing to put off closing the game cause you “feel bad” about it ending too fast. If your deck is finishing games too fast, the answer is to power down the deck itself a bit. To go with that, if I tell you I’m playing spellslinger or combo during rule zero, ATTACK ME. I’ll let my friends and randoms in a non-tournament setting when I’m doing so, so don’t get upset if I win out of nowhere because you felt bad about me not doing my thing.
Because people generally want to do stuff on their turn in edh, I sometimes play decks that are specifically designed to flash everything in. Yes, its good strategy, but I also love the reaction I get when I drop a land, pass turn and sit there with an exaggerated moustache twirling look on my face.
I feel commander players also play stuff during first main because there tends to be a lot of combat triggers, combo triggers, and equipments for example, which are better for combat, not after
I've always been a second main caster and never considered using my combat as leverage/retribution lol. That's pretty hilarious and I might have to start trying that.
Same here, I only played Standard for a bit until I found Commander and haven't looked back since, and I still only do things on first main that set up attacks, and do everything else second main.
Another thing that the Commander format has given rise to that doesn't exist in any other format is the "political" player. We've all been in that pod with the player that insists that they're not the threat, that they're having an off game. End result with these players is that you spare them a little grace or pity, they'll win and gloat about it. Then, when you stop falling for their gimmicks, they get super pouty, deem you the toxic player at the LGS and try to ruin your games for the rest of the night.
Regarding fetches: I think most players understand “end step fetching” but they don’t do it because they don’t want to shuffle just before their turn starts. Shuffling is a low key really annoying part of commander. If I have a sakura tribe elder or wayfarers bauble or even just a fetch I’ll usually crack them later on, but not on the end step of the player before me.
Yeah, I see a lot of people fetch at the end of their turn just so they're not slowing the game down. "I fetch a shock and bring it in tapped, go ahead" ... Then they go look through their deck. I actually don't see a lot of fetches and shocks, usually more like the cheap ones that bring in basics tapped. But either way, it's end of turn, don't wait for me. As for casting spells before attacks, I have had to teach several players not to do that. I had a friend with a commander that let him impulse draw after doing combat damage and he would continually tap out before combat and then not be able to cast the stuff he drew. I think he eventually stopped playing that commander because he didn't think it was very good 😂
@@NateFinch hahaha yeah my friends do that too. Took a lot of practise for them to realise that they should avoid doing stuff on their first main phase. The other thing I had to show them was how valuable "each turn" effects are in commander. I have a Marneus Calgar deck where I play a lot of "whenever you draw your second card each turn create a token" effects which means I'm doing a lot of things on my opponents turns to maximise that value. It's not a flash deck or a control deck, but it takes advantage of commander having 4 turns in a turn cycle, so that I can get maximum value out of these cards. It also got my friends to realise a bit more how important being able to do things at instant speed can be.
@@light-chemistry oh man, same guy plays all his instants at sorcery speed. Whenever he draws something off the top, he plays it immediately. I've tried to explain that he should wait until he knows he needs to play it, or at least until someone else's turn.
Commander players who play together a lot will abuse the social dynamic. They remember the last game or a player’s reputation and base their decisions on that more so than what’s happening there and now.
I intentionally work on providing that reputation. I will tell the voltron commander "you don't want to swing that at me" before he swings and I remove it. It leaves a lasting impression and there are several people at my LGS that say "I don't want to swing at Dave because he always has an answer"
I came from Yu-Gi-Oh and I also noticed many smaller things. Typically in Yu-Gi-Oh you always want to wait to do stuff at the last possible moment and I found it interesting that most EDH players don't care. I think it becomes even more important in a multiplayer game. You always want to keep your opponents guessing. This also goes the other way around, I am still surprised every time I see people casting their important spells with all opponents having mana up. Of course their spell will get countered or removed and they are very shocked or disappointed. It's just so unusual to me that people forego bluffing or playing around possible answers. These are the little things that can dramatically change games.
Usually I'll play one big spell, expecting a response, so that the other players will spend their removal on my lesser of two evils I'm saving for later 😅
So I only play commander and my group is the type to say they're casual but by these terms are most definitely not I just build to stand up to it and it gets wild at our tables but it's almost always fun
1.) with fetches; 60 card formats require you to wait to end phase since your opponents turn 1 play is crucial and that land is your interaction. This is irrelevant in casual edh; you just need mana fixing. 2.) edh players do want to actually play the game and have time equity on their turns; this is why combo decks, extra turns decks, additional upkeeps, etc are looked down on in casual edh. Technically, yes unless something has haste or affects your board, you should go to combat first before playing lands and casting spells, but again its not 1v1 and the tempo is different.
I often end up casting stuff during my first main phase because a creature has an ability I want to utilize, but I also want to attack with that creature.
So I’ve played competitive standard/modern for over a decade and casual since 2001… and I can say you’re absolutely right. The pod I play in are pretty new to the game and so I always teach them these competitive mindsets… competitive 1v1 formats you ALWAYS want to keep them guessing what you’re playing, game two you’re sideboarding to shut they’re wincon down. Game three, good luck. lol. You’re absolutely right on both accounts, threat assessments and good/bad politic skills are typically what I notice the most… that and deck power level. People bring overpowered decks to the table and low ball its power level or pilot a high power deck poorly and wonder why they got targeted and lost first… 🤷🏻
Sometimes it’s good to cast stuff on mp1 cuz if your opponent has more than one spell and has to float mana with a mana vault, you can attempt to leave phases and they lose that mana. Even in cEDH sometimes they don’t even need to go to combat to win, so if you have some effect that waits to play after combat it’s useless. And in higher levels of edh they typically don’t attack people based off of how many counters they do to active player.
I would say the disparity between casting time almost entirely falls down to the general lack of combat tricks in commander. As well in 60 card, most instant speed removal happens in the combat step in response to an attack.
I played Modern before Commander and I definitely changed when I crack fetch lands, like you said there is less information and opportunities I'm giving away by cracking a fetch in Commander, but mostly because it takes longer to search through a bigger deck to find the land I'm looking for and I don't want to take up time and extend the end step before my turn because I'm still searching. I always thought that players casting spells on their first main was just lack of skill, due to skill being less important to people in a casual format, I never even considered it would be for counterspell spite attacks, but you are probably right. 😆
Don't let your opponents know that you just top decked a land. So many people just draw the land and slap it down without putting it into your hand. Draw your land, do a little hand shuffle, maybe do something else first, then play your land. I do this especially with stuff like Sensei's Divining Top. I don't want my opponents knowing that I am desperate for a land and had to put one on top. Instead it looks like that I'm a responsible magic player that put a good card on top instead XD Just remember that the unknown is scary so keep your opponents guessing.
You can draw a land and send it right into play without first putting it in your hand and still have multiple lands in your hand. If I draw a plains and have 2 other plains in my hand its just more time efficient. If your opponents know you intentionally put the land first makes sense tho. Your point is still good general advice though. I might start doing it just to slow my initial plays down so there is more time to reevaluate if the drawn card would alter what I had previously planed to play.
I agree about everything but the fetches. There's 4 players. Cracking them right away is a time equity solution. "We just went through 3 solid turns and now your shuffling your deck every time your turn is about to start. Sure it's a part of the game but it feels awkward for everyone considering your turn was 10 minutes ago this could all be done already. Its not efficient play but it is efficient time
There actually is a good reason to wait till end step to crack a fetch land. If I wait, I can decide to put in an untapped dual or a tap dual, depending on if I need to respond. If I don't have to respond, I can just grab a tap dual
First main casting is not just the retribution factor, though that certainly plays a part, but also forces the other players into risk assessment. Do I counter this mildly annoying, but likely not game-winning spell, now or do I hold up interactions for when/if they attack me?
I crack fetches immediately because land drops are a must have and if someone plays a stax piece or dark rituals and flashes in an opposition agent you’ll wish you had too. It feels less dangerous than having an uncracked fetch land waiting around a turn cycle.
@@nathanseverson-baker3412 I’ve seen it happen in a casual pods with randoms. Sometimes people can’t help themselves. I had a guy play staff of domination targeting marwyn, the nurturer for infinite after we all agreed no combos in the pre-game chat. Some people are like that even in a casual setting.
i love fetch lands. i routinely will crack them before it's about to hit my turn, because i'm trying to save everyone's time if i'm not using the mana immediately. i don't expect anyone else to follow this self-rule i hold to, but i don't like making people wait on me tutoring
My LGS definition of medium power casual is tutors, the one ring, OG duel lands, and infinate combats by turn 4. I must be missing something if that is considered casual. 😂
Power level is subjective. A great example of this is my Yuriko deck. It wins in the most Timmy way possible by tutoring Draco, Shadow or Mortality, Rags // Riches etc. to the top and draining the table for 10+ at a time. I don't feel like it's a CEDH deck but it's been called that a time or two.
Certain Commanders aren’t casual, no matter how much you claim it is: Magda, Yuriko, Kinnan, etc. It is 100% ok to judge someone’s deck based on their commander.
@@slumdutchmillionare this line of thinking is exactly why my infect deck has Archelos, Lagoon Mystic as commander. People assume it's something based around the static ability and if asked I'll tell you it's "turtle tribal" I see your point though, if I see Atraxa, I'd assume either +1/+1, Infect, Energy or Super Friends and would be thrown off by an Angel Tribal deck.
All of this stems from 2 major differences. 1) unlike 60 card formats, Commander is not overtly competitive. 2) 60 card formats only concern themselves with a single opponent & a much smaller life total. So yeah: it's not optimal to crack a fetch on your own turn. But in Commander you do that so you don't keep the whole table waiting whilst you search & shuffle. Playing before vs after combat is a little fuzzier. In 1v1 formats interaction is king. In fact a lot of the time you actually want the opponent to interact with you during combat because you can then act relatively unopposed during your 2nd main. With 3 opponents in Commander you can have a player interact with you in combat, then get punished by someone else in your 2nd main, so that doesn't work. In fact as you say - it's more efficient to make plays before combat, and leave the threat of combat retaliation to dissuade players from interacting with you. I think you'd find more similarities between Cedh & 60 card formats than you might find between Cedh & Commander.
All of this assumes you are not fetching a land you can use immediately of course, but if not you should still wait to crack your fetch, assuming opponents have untapped mana available, because there are ways for them to interact with your fetch. If they spend the mana on their turn, you are in the clear. Similarly, if you are fetching a shock rather than something that does not hit your life total, you want the maximum amount of information possible about whether you need it tapped or untapped. If you don't need the mana to fire off a crucial counter or something, then you don't need to shock yourself and can let it come in untapped.
My buddy said “everyone cool with a boardwipe” when i was the threat at the table and then i said “you said “”, not, does anyone has a boardwipe?…im attacking you full send”. Took him out and he had the boardwipe….be careful how you phrase your removal haha
I feel like this is mostly the difference between casual olayers and more competitive players. If you're coming from a competitive mindset, these are all percentages that can matter a lot in one on one games. But in commader, your turn 2 fetch land isn't going to make or break the game.
One difference I've noticed is that Commander players tend not to lock their opponents out of the game. Modern players will at every opportunity play stacks effects, land destruction, and whatnot to keep the other player from actually playing, while Commander players want to see what their opponents' decks can do.
A big reason people tend to crack their fetches immediately is because it’s just wasting people’s time. They respond, they check their deck for one of maybe 3-4 cards, then pulling it out and shuffling your deck. Nobody wants to sit there 30 seconds while you shuffle your 90 cards when you had 3 turns to do that and not waste anyone’s time.
Even when I played 60 card decks, we played multiplayer, so it was not typical. There would be 4-6 players. The life total was probably the only significant difference. That was a different era, the game was much slower paced. That had more impact than anything else.
So addressing the crack the fetch land early thing, I think you missed something crucial about Commander: Lands are needed and QUICKLY. Commander is mostly about who can get rolling the fastest. If you have a land that lets you get another land NOW why not crack it and get that land, vs leaving it to sit there and do nothing?
Depends. Do you have landfall triggers you want to do later in response to something? Do you have something that makes your fetch tap for Mana (ie urborg)? There are quite a few of reasons
One last reason off top of mind is you keep it to fetch something that comes in tapped, UNLESS you may need to fetch a different color that allows interaction if someone casts something or attacks and you need to stop it. Allows you to choose in the moment what color you need or which land
Keep in mind a lot of what demo is talking about is regarding good fetch lands, like polluted delta, rather than “bad ones” like evolving wilds, because the good ones fetch lands untapped. Think about it like this: if you fetch up an untapped land and then pass because you can’t use that mana, that’s the same as fetching up a tapped land. So why delay it? If you need that mana to cast something on your turn it is correct in both modern and commander to get it straight away. But the reason why people don’t is that it theoretically makes people think you could fetch up mana that could be used to interact with them, so they are less likely to interact with you. This is advantageous because the later you leave fetching, the easier it is to mitigate for the drawback of fetching a tapped land, because they think I can get an untapped one. There are a lot of powerful tapped lands that people play, like surveil lands or triomes, but it still hurts for them to come into play tapped. This circumvents that to an extent
if we're playing casual, i'll always tell my opps im cracking this evolving wilds at the end step of player 4's turn, but i'll search the land beforehand. i'll probably never do that if its a semi-competetive game because people could have op agent or aven mindsensor or some garbage lol
The funniest and most pointless end step fetchland cracks are when someone cracks evolving wilds/ terramorphic expanse. We know what colors you are playing and the land will always come in tapped so there is no gotcha moments. Like why wait till the last minute?
as a former competitive yugioh player, the majority of commander players i have played against are incompetent, unoriginal players whilst also being incredibly surface level analysts. anytime ive come across someone who has made a "spicy" deck, its just a netdeck they got off mtg goldfish or r/EDH.
I always sit on my fetches until the last moment. Determines if I'm getting an untapped shock or not. I don't care if it costs two life. If I can save two life, I'm doing it. Playing on the second main phase just makes more sense too, and I've always done that except for certain decks. My equipment jor kadeen deck usually plays in the first main phase simply to make jor kadeen hit harder with more equipment out.
The threat assessment of commandwr players annoys the hell out of me. I'll be mana screwd but have a rystic study or something nonthreatening on my side and get targeted even though another player is making us lose life when we draw or playing infect and we're already at 6 poison counters. It seems impossible to get bad players to focus on the thing thats going to kill the. Opposed to the thing thats annoying them.
@@HWHY human nature? Our brains are stopping us from doing things that could harm or kill us. It's why a lot of people have fears based on ignorance or unknowns. Scared of the dark because you don't know what's around you or is there something harmful. Scared of spiders because you think it's going to bite you and put you in the hospital. For those fears you turn on a light or kill the spider. But if a picture frame isn't straight you don't punch it and set it on fire. You might not even notice it. Or that beeping smoke detector that's been beeping for months gets ignored. We deal with annoying things all day and avoid dying in real life. Except for in magic. It's called bad threat assessment.
@adamhenwood1114 is it killing you? Is it a combo piece? Am I going to win in less than 3 turns because of it? OR IS THE GUY NEXT TO YOU PLAYING A PROLIFERATE INFECT DECK ABOUT TO WIN IN 2 TURNS? you're the type of player to wonder how you lost because you were too busy attacking the guy that's mana screwed soley because you wanted to do stuff.
@@light-chemistry i second that, if you play scary/annoying stuff you get targeted. If you dint like it change the cards or go to cedh. As a side note, if you are the only one playing blue on the table you also get targeted more often in generell, this is kinda annoying but unless your meta has combos around, is pribably a good call overall.
Yeah most commander players larp communal living. Can't be happy when one person is playing the game cause it means the collective is just watching. It's like wanting to play a game but only the parts that make you "feel" good. Also, those silent groans whenever I play an expensive or efficient card are so annoying. It's like you're not allowed to make certain plays even if the plays are casual. Commander players are snowflakes unfortunately.
Real talk, if I’m sitting down for a nice fun game of commander and you’re threatening me with a blightsteel if I don’t let your Rhystic study resolve I’m probably just gonna leave the table anyways.
Your explanation of why commander players generally misplay is very generous lol. Commander players are casual and because of that they generally tend to be not very good at the game.
Most edh players I know are competitive/semi-competitive modern players who enjoy edh because that's the only format where they can play casually. They don't do the optimal thing because they want to chill, not because they're bad.
I think you're missing the one big reason commander players crack fetches as soon as they play them.
Searching for a single copy of a card in a 100 card deck and shuffling up takes *significantly* longer than searching for one of multiple copies in a 60 card deck. By the time you've found the card and shuffled, it's often already your turn again. If you do that at the last possible second, you're going to have 3 other players sitting there waiting for you to finish... which (and you did touch on this) is just going to make them more likely to target you.
My thoughts exactly. I definitely do this for that reason.
this saves a lot of time because it starts to add up during a game if everyone is waiting to the end step to crack fetches and sit there searching. Better to crack and pass if your not planning on playing anything after and just search while the next player starts their turn
Yup! This is what I was thinking also lol. Also searching while you pass the turn (provided no one else has any actions on your turn of course) keeps the pace of the game flowing. It's just a shortcut. It's actually kind of frustrating when another player *doesn't* do this and we have to just sit and wait for "hours" while they dig through their deck just to end their turn immediately after. 😂
Exactly. For any land search effect, unless I have a play I want to make with that land this turn, I’m going to pass while I search.
Doesn't look like fun game nor a healthy community, more like very toxic players
Casting after attacking is just wise gameplay. If it doesn't effect combat there is no point casting it at all in your 1st main phase.
I win more games by simply playing cards at the appropriate time, and making sure that everyone at the table knows who has priority. A lot of people wait around for someone to volunteer their removal or counterspells, but if you just gently remind people who actually has priority, a lot of people will step up because they have it and they can do something about it.
My biggest difference is the "commander players want to do stuff". I came from standard and the first few commander games I played I would really mess with the "biggest threat" on the board. My decks had lots of targeted removal and contol/lock mechanics. I might not win the game but I was going to make sure you knew I was playing. I then started to realize that the format is casual and the guy I'm playing against might only get in a commander game or two a month. I now let people do "the thing" and enjoy seeing the other players build their board state.
The biggest thing I've noticed about Commander players that people don't talk about is that they're basically Jurassic Park T-Rexes, in that their vision only notices things that are moving. Do-nothing planeswalkers get attacked because they're getting ticked up, while value engines that quietly give you extra cards every turn stay basically untouched.
great point.
The biggest thing I've noticed about non-EDH players is that they're constantly rude to EDH players for no reason other than as a coping mechanism to help them handle the fact that their chosen format will never be as popular as EDH.
Lol it's because we like to advance gameplay and sometimes politics are involved in every game.
@@peachykeen3194 I play primarily EDH. My main decks are Rocco, Ratadrabik, Delney and Horde of notions. You took this comment that was not aimed at you personally because you realized that you are a horrible player.
@@franslair2199 did I tag you in my comment? No I didn't, but you still assumed it was directed at you because you're a presumptuous asshole.
pit simply: it’s a casual format, being optimal isn’t integral. So other things can take priority.
That's a easy one: the grudges dont end with the match.
"You remember that time when you did THAT to me?"
"Bruh thats was like two weeks ago"
"I attack you with all my infinite tokens"
"So everyone's dead?"
"No, just you"
That's very toxic. Not healthy, not fun to play with
It's crazy to me your channel isn't bigger. The videos are really good!
I agree! Tell your friends, tell your enemies.
You left out that us commander players are great lovers.
In EDH, winning on your own terms is more important than winning efficiently.
agree
Hard agree
Cracking at endstep may be the right play but in four player game it's gonna be adding up time if each player does that, each player searching and shuffling while each other player waits that you can start your turn, it adds up alot of gametime
A lot of the reason why commander players play the way they do is to keep things moving along. Everyone hates it when you waste time to search your shock land when you could have been doing it during someone else's turn.
The weirdest mentality to me is how *so* many players play to win but get upset when their stuff gets interacted with and/or someone plays some kind of wincon that they disagree with (I.e. combos or infect). Are we playing to win or are we playing casually? I’m not gonna sit around and let you build a big board of Dinos/dragons/tokens if I can do something about it, and I’ll like the game less if you build that board then play with your food just so people can do more.
It’s one thing to avoid attacking someone cause they’re blatantly very behind when playing jank, another thing to put off closing the game cause you “feel bad” about it ending too fast. If your deck is finishing games too fast, the answer is to power down the deck itself a bit.
To go with that, if I tell you I’m playing spellslinger or combo during rule zero, ATTACK ME. I’ll let my friends and randoms in a non-tournament setting when I’m doing so, so don’t get upset if I win out of nowhere because you felt bad about me not doing my thing.
Because people generally want to do stuff on their turn in edh, I sometimes play decks that are specifically designed to flash everything in. Yes, its good strategy, but I also love the reaction I get when I drop a land, pass turn and sit there with an exaggerated moustache twirling look on my face.
I feel commander players also play stuff during first main because there tends to be a lot of combat triggers, combo triggers, and equipments for example, which are better for combat, not after
I've always been a second main caster and never considered using my combat as leverage/retribution lol. That's pretty hilarious and I might have to start trying that.
Same here, I only played Standard for a bit until I found Commander and haven't looked back since, and I still only do things on first main that set up attacks, and do everything else second main.
You can also mercenary out your attack... if you don't counter this not only will I not attack you, I will let you decide who I attack instead.
Another thing that the Commander format has given rise to that doesn't exist in any other format is the "political" player. We've all been in that pod with the player that insists that they're not the threat, that they're having an off game. End result with these players is that you spare them a little grace or pity, they'll win and gloat about it. Then, when you stop falling for their gimmicks, they get super pouty, deem you the toxic player at the LGS and try to ruin your games for the rest of the night.
Petty equals fun. Play with interactions, not reactions.
Regarding fetches: I think most players understand “end step fetching” but they don’t do it because they don’t want to shuffle just before their turn starts. Shuffling is a low key really annoying part of commander. If I have a sakura tribe elder or wayfarers bauble or even just a fetch I’ll usually crack them later on, but not on the end step of the player before me.
Yeah, I see a lot of people fetch at the end of their turn just so they're not slowing the game down. "I fetch a shock and bring it in tapped, go ahead" ... Then they go look through their deck.
I actually don't see a lot of fetches and shocks, usually more like the cheap ones that bring in basics tapped. But either way, it's end of turn, don't wait for me.
As for casting spells before attacks, I have had to teach several players not to do that. I had a friend with a commander that let him impulse draw after doing combat damage and he would continually tap out before combat and then not be able to cast the stuff he drew. I think he eventually stopped playing that commander because he didn't think it was very good 😂
@@NateFinch hahaha yeah my friends do that too. Took a lot of practise for them to realise that they should avoid doing stuff on their first main phase.
The other thing I had to show them was how valuable "each turn" effects are in commander. I have a Marneus Calgar deck where I play a lot of "whenever you draw your second card each turn create a token" effects which means I'm doing a lot of things on my opponents turns to maximise that value. It's not a flash deck or a control deck, but it takes advantage of commander having 4 turns in a turn cycle, so that I can get maximum value out of these cards. It also got my friends to realise a bit more how important being able to do things at instant speed can be.
@@light-chemistry oh man, same guy plays all his instants at sorcery speed. Whenever he draws something off the top, he plays it immediately. I've tried to explain that he should wait until he knows he needs to play it, or at least until someone else's turn.
@@NateFinch This hurts my soul
Commander players who play together a lot will abuse the social dynamic. They remember the last game or a player’s reputation and base their decisions on that more so than what’s happening there and now.
I intentionally work on providing that reputation. I will tell the voltron commander "you don't want to swing that at me" before he swings and I remove it.
It leaves a lasting impression and there are several people at my LGS that say "I don't want to swing at Dave because he always has an answer"
i'm a bit different. i just don't wanna play like a tryhard. if i wanted to play CEDH, i'd do that. i just wanna have fun.
SHIRT IDEA: “Commander players want to do stuff.”
I came from Yu-Gi-Oh and I also noticed many smaller things. Typically in Yu-Gi-Oh you always want to wait to do stuff at the last possible moment and I found it interesting that most EDH players don't care. I think it becomes even more important in a multiplayer game. You always want to keep your opponents guessing.
This also goes the other way around, I am still surprised every time I see people casting their important spells with all opponents having mana up. Of course their spell will get countered or removed and they are very shocked or disappointed. It's just so unusual to me that people forego bluffing or playing around possible answers. These are the little things that can dramatically change games.
Usually I'll play one big spell, expecting a response, so that the other players will spend their removal on my lesser of two evils I'm saving for later 😅
So I only play commander and my group is the type to say they're casual but by these terms are most definitely not I just build to stand up to it and it gets wild at our tables but it's almost always fun
1.) with fetches; 60 card formats require you to wait to end phase since your opponents turn 1 play is crucial and that land is your interaction.
This is irrelevant in casual edh; you just need mana fixing.
2.) edh players do want to actually play the game and have time equity on their turns; this is why combo decks, extra turns decks, additional upkeeps, etc are looked down on in casual edh.
Technically, yes unless something has haste or affects your board, you should go to combat first before playing lands and casting spells, but again its not 1v1 and the tempo is different.
I often end up casting stuff during my first main phase because a creature has an ability I want to utilize, but I also want to attack with that creature.
So I’ve played competitive standard/modern for over a decade and casual since 2001… and I can say you’re absolutely right. The pod I play in are pretty new to the game and so I always teach them these competitive mindsets… competitive 1v1 formats you ALWAYS want to keep them guessing what you’re playing, game two you’re sideboarding to shut they’re wincon down. Game three, good luck. lol. You’re absolutely right on both accounts, threat assessments and good/bad politic skills are typically what I notice the most… that and deck power level. People bring overpowered decks to the table and low ball its power level or pilot a high power deck poorly and wonder why they got targeted and lost first… 🤷🏻
Sometimes it’s good to cast stuff on mp1 cuz if your opponent has more than one spell and has to float mana with a mana vault, you can attempt to leave phases and they lose that mana. Even in cEDH sometimes they don’t even need to go to combat to win, so if you have some effect that waits to play after combat it’s useless. And in higher levels of edh they typically don’t attack people based off of how many counters they do to active player.
I would say the disparity between casting time almost entirely falls down to the general lack of combat tricks in commander.
As well in 60 card, most instant speed removal happens in the combat step in response to an attack.
I played Modern before Commander and I definitely changed when I crack fetch lands, like you said there is less information and opportunities I'm giving away by cracking a fetch in Commander, but mostly because it takes longer to search through a bigger deck to find the land I'm looking for and I don't want to take up time and extend the end step before my turn because I'm still searching.
I always thought that players casting spells on their first main was just lack of skill, due to skill being less important to people in a casual format, I never even considered it would be for counterspell spite attacks, but you are probably right. 😆
Don't let your opponents know that you just top decked a land. So many people just draw the land and slap it down without putting it into your hand. Draw your land, do a little hand shuffle, maybe do something else first, then play your land. I do this especially with stuff like Sensei's Divining Top. I don't want my opponents knowing that I am desperate for a land and had to put one on top. Instead it looks like that I'm a responsible magic player that put a good card on top instead XD Just remember that the unknown is scary so keep your opponents guessing.
You can draw a land and send it right into play without first putting it in your hand and still have multiple lands in your hand. If I draw a plains and have 2 other plains in my hand its just more time efficient. If your opponents know you intentionally put the land first makes sense tho.
Your point is still good general advice though. I might start doing it just to slow my initial plays down so there is more time to reevaluate if the drawn card would alter what I had previously planed to play.
I agree about everything but the fetches. There's 4 players. Cracking them right away is a time equity solution. "We just went through 3 solid turns and now your shuffling your deck every time your turn is about to start. Sure it's a part of the game but it feels awkward for everyone considering your turn was 10 minutes ago this could all be done already. Its not efficient play but it is efficient time
NOT a fun casual format then
Reason for the insta fetch is timo imo. EDH games take long, you can fetch while the other guys make their turn.
There actually is a good reason to wait till end step to crack a fetch land. If I wait, I can decide to put in an untapped dual or a tap dual, depending on if I need to respond. If I don't have to respond, I can just grab a tap dual
Used to play Pokémon so I’m just used to my turn ending on attack
First main casting is not just the retribution factor, though that certainly plays a part, but also forces the other players into risk assessment. Do I counter this mildly annoying, but likely not game-winning spell, now or do I hold up interactions for when/if they attack me?
When my group uses fetches we say the land we are getting use it and pass. We search for it after our turn to speed up gameplay.
I crack fetches immediately because land drops are a must have and if someone plays a stax piece or dark rituals and flashes in an opposition agent you’ll wish you had too. It feels less dangerous than having an uncracked fetch land waiting around a turn cycle.
The pods you play in must be brutal lol
@@nathanseverson-baker3412 I’ve seen it happen in a casual pods with randoms. Sometimes people can’t help themselves. I had a guy play staff of domination targeting marwyn, the nurturer for infinite after we all agreed no combos in the pre-game chat. Some people are like that even in a casual setting.
😂😂😂 I’m having 2010’s Friday night magic flashbacks
i love fetch lands. i routinely will crack them before it's about to hit my turn, because i'm trying to save everyone's time if i'm not using the mana immediately. i don't expect anyone else to follow this self-rule i hold to, but i don't like making people wait on me tutoring
I was taught commander by a modern player so I do some of this already. I still have a hard time not doing everything on my first main phase
My LGS definition of medium power casual is tutors, the one ring, OG duel lands, and infinate combats by turn 4. I must be missing something if that is considered casual. 😂
Power level is subjective. A great example of this is my Yuriko deck. It wins in the most Timmy way possible by tutoring Draco, Shadow or Mortality, Rags // Riches etc. to the top and draining the table for 10+ at a time. I don't feel like it's a CEDH deck but it's been called that a time or two.
@@CharlesLeeRay812the fact that you’re tutoring at all sets off people’s power level alarms sometimes 🤷🏼♂️
@@nathanseverson-baker3412 guess so. What's funny is what am I really going to do with a 16 mana 9/9 Flyer with an upkeep cost??
Certain Commanders aren’t casual, no matter how much you claim it is: Magda, Yuriko, Kinnan, etc. It is 100% ok to judge someone’s deck based on their commander.
@@slumdutchmillionare this line of thinking is exactly why my infect deck has Archelos, Lagoon Mystic as commander. People assume it's something based around the static ability and if asked I'll tell you it's "turtle tribal"
I see your point though, if I see Atraxa, I'd assume either +1/+1, Infect, Energy or Super Friends and would be thrown off by an Angel Tribal deck.
All of this stems from 2 major differences.
1) unlike 60 card formats, Commander is not overtly competitive.
2) 60 card formats only concern themselves with a single opponent & a much smaller life total.
So yeah: it's not optimal to crack a fetch on your own turn. But in Commander you do that so you don't keep the whole table waiting whilst you search & shuffle.
Playing before vs after combat is a little fuzzier. In 1v1 formats interaction is king. In fact a lot of the time you actually want the opponent to interact with you during combat because you can then act relatively unopposed during your 2nd main. With 3 opponents in Commander you can have a player interact with you in combat, then get punished by someone else in your 2nd main, so that doesn't work. In fact as you say - it's more efficient to make plays before combat, and leave the threat of combat retaliation to dissuade players from interacting with you.
I think you'd find more similarities between Cedh & 60 card formats than you might find between Cedh & Commander.
Cracking the fetch immediately is to save time.
All of this assumes you are not fetching a land you can use immediately of course, but if not you should still wait to crack your fetch, assuming opponents have untapped mana available, because there are ways for them to interact with your fetch. If they spend the mana on their turn, you are in the clear. Similarly, if you are fetching a shock rather than something that does not hit your life total, you want the maximum amount of information possible about whether you need it tapped or untapped. If you don't need the mana to fire off a crucial counter or something, then you don't need to shock yourself and can let it come in untapped.
The best way to keep your things from being countered is to just remove the first person that plays an island.
Politics are really only a thing in commander, it's one of my favorite aspects of the game
My buddy said “everyone cool with a boardwipe” when i was the threat at the table and then i said “you said “”, not, does anyone has a boardwipe?…im attacking you full send”.
Took him out and he had the boardwipe….be careful how you phrase your removal haha
I feel like this is mostly the difference between casual olayers and more competitive players. If you're coming from a competitive mindset, these are all percentages that can matter a lot in one on one games. But in commader, your turn 2 fetch land isn't going to make or break the game.
For me a big factor is, casting things and tapping mana reduces the number of possibilities I need to consider. Less mental work.
My fetches get me dual-lands.
One difference I've noticed is that Commander players tend not to lock their opponents out of the game. Modern players will at every opportunity play stacks effects, land destruction, and whatnot to keep the other player from actually playing, while Commander players want to see what their opponents' decks can do.
A big reason people tend to crack their fetches immediately is because it’s just wasting people’s time. They respond, they check their deck for one of maybe 3-4 cards, then pulling it out and shuffling your deck. Nobody wants to sit there 30 seconds while you shuffle your 90 cards when you had 3 turns to do that and not waste anyone’s time.
personally not a modern player... but i was taught by a modern player so it makes sense now
I always tell players "Only cast spells on your first main phase IF it affects combat" otherwise wait till after combat
Even when I played 60 card decks, we played multiplayer, so it was not typical. There would be 4-6 players. The life total was probably the only significant difference. That was a different era, the game was much slower paced. That had more impact than anything else.
So addressing the crack the fetch land early thing, I think you missed something crucial about Commander: Lands are needed and QUICKLY. Commander is mostly about who can get rolling the fastest. If you have a land that lets you get another land NOW why not crack it and get that land, vs leaving it to sit there and do nothing?
Depends. Do you have landfall triggers you want to do later in response to something? Do you have something that makes your fetch tap for Mana (ie urborg)? There are quite a few of reasons
One last reason off top of mind is you keep it to fetch something that comes in tapped, UNLESS you may need to fetch a different color that allows interaction if someone casts something or attacks and you need to stop it. Allows you to choose in the moment what color you need or which land
Keep in mind a lot of what demo is talking about is regarding good fetch lands, like polluted delta, rather than “bad ones” like evolving wilds, because the good ones fetch lands untapped. Think about it like this: if you fetch up an untapped land and then pass because you can’t use that mana, that’s the same as fetching up a tapped land. So why delay it? If you need that mana to cast something on your turn it is correct in both modern and commander to get it straight away. But the reason why people don’t is that it theoretically makes people think you could fetch up mana that could be used to interact with them, so they are less likely to interact with you. This is advantageous because the later you leave fetching, the easier it is to mitigate for the drawback of fetching a tapped land, because they think I can get an untapped one. There are a lot of powerful tapped lands that people play, like surveil lands or triomes, but it still hurts for them to come into play tapped. This circumvents that to an extent
I guess I still play commander like it's modern.
if we're playing casual, i'll always tell my opps im cracking this evolving wilds at the end step of player 4's turn, but i'll search the land beforehand.
i'll probably never do that if its a semi-competetive game because people could have op agent or aven mindsensor or some garbage lol
Lemme guess: DONT TOUCH MY THINGS!
The funniest and most pointless end step fetchland cracks are when someone cracks evolving wilds/ terramorphic expanse. We know what colors you are playing and the land will always come in tapped so there is no gotcha moments. Like why wait till the last minute?
as a former competitive yugioh player, the majority of commander players i have played against are incompetent, unoriginal players whilst also being incredibly surface level analysts. anytime ive come across someone who has made a "spicy" deck, its just a netdeck they got off mtg goldfish or r/EDH.
SWAMP 💀
Honestly the only thing i find annoying about fetches is when people play off color ones.
I always sit on my fetches until the last moment. Determines if I'm getting an untapped shock or not. I don't care if it costs two life. If I can save two life, I'm doing it. Playing on the second main phase just makes more sense too, and I've always done that except for certain decks. My equipment jor kadeen deck usually plays in the first main phase simply to make jor kadeen hit harder with more equipment out.
I always fetch on the endstep. An uncracked fetch represents an untapped land and a response.
I do not understand this "2 life doesn't matter" mentality. If you are playing life gain, sure but it definitely matters. That's 2 closer to death.
The threat assessment of commandwr players annoys the hell out of me. I'll be mana screwd but have a rystic study or something nonthreatening on my side and get targeted even though another player is making us lose life when we draw or playing infect and we're already at 6 poison counters.
It seems impossible to get bad players to focus on the thing thats going to kill the. Opposed to the thing thats annoying them.
@@HWHY human nature? Our brains are stopping us from doing things that could harm or kill us. It's why a lot of people have fears based on ignorance or unknowns. Scared of the dark because you don't know what's around you or is there something harmful.
Scared of spiders because you think it's going to bite you and put you in the hospital.
For those fears you turn on a light or kill the spider.
But if a picture frame isn't straight you don't punch it and set it on fire. You might not even notice it. Or that beeping smoke detector that's been beeping for months gets ignored.
We deal with annoying things all day and avoid dying in real life. Except for in magic. It's called bad threat assessment.
lol what don’t play rhystic study then they’re absolutely right to target you for that
@adamhenwood1114 is it killing you? Is it a combo piece? Am I going to win in less than 3 turns because of it?
OR IS THE GUY NEXT TO YOU PLAYING A PROLIFERATE INFECT DECK ABOUT TO WIN IN 2 TURNS? you're the type of player to wonder how you lost because you were too busy attacking the guy that's mana screwed soley because you wanted to do stuff.
@@light-chemistry i second that, if you play scary/annoying stuff you get targeted. If you dint like it change the cards or go to cedh.
As a side note, if you are the only one playing blue on the table you also get targeted more often in generell, this is kinda annoying but unless your meta has combos around, is pribably a good call overall.
Yeah most commander players larp communal living. Can't be happy when one person is playing the game cause it means the collective is just watching. It's like wanting to play a game but only the parts that make you "feel" good. Also, those silent groans whenever I play an expensive or efficient card are so annoying. It's like you're not allowed to make certain plays even if the plays are casual. Commander players are snowflakes unfortunately.
I disagree with both these points I see people do both in Commander all the time
Real talk, if I’m sitting down for a nice fun game of commander and you’re threatening me with a blightsteel if I don’t let your Rhystic study resolve I’m probably just gonna leave the table anyways.
It's not a threat, it's the "implication".
Your explanation of why commander players generally misplay is very generous lol. Commander players are casual and because of that they generally tend to be not very good at the game.
The amount of times I've had to go "wait, so how are you doing that?" In commander pods, lol
Just because you enjoy being "casual" doesn't mean youre bad at the game
@@brandyourfan9244 my comment doesn’t say that.
Most edh players I know are competitive/semi-competitive modern players who enjoy edh because that's the only format where they can play casually. They don't do the optimal thing because they want to chill, not because they're bad.
@@DarksteelPenguin you’re describing a small minority of the EDH community
So what you're saying is commander players play worse Magic.
So, average edh player are just worse than average modern player.
Please dont repeat everything 3 times. It is very hard to listen to.
It sounds like you're describing the stoned dudes on spelltable. Most of the commander players at my LGS all play the smart way.