Troubleshooting Generator With No Power Output - AVR and Brush Replacement - Flashing the Field
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2020
- Part 1: Bought this generator used, advertised as good engine but no power output. Will go though common methods of troubleshooting to determine the cause of the failure and fix if possible.
Part 2: • Generator Head Install...
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You just gave a lot of guys familiar with small engines but not generators an amazing opportunity to fix and flip, or do repairs around the community to help prepare those who have generators stored up but not a lot of money to just buy new ones every single storm. Thanks man I have one here that's nice but same issue.
Absolutely selfless contribution to human knowledge. Bravo
You done a great job of keeping it simple and step by step. No fluff intro to your video is a big plus in my book!
as an electrician i am always asked to look at broken generators but i have always said no because i wasn't too sure what to look for. now with your great video i am a lot more confident now
They're fairly simple to work on. The smaller cheaper gens use the brushes and slip rings. I do everything from 15kw to 4.5MW HIgh voltage gens. grind through the problems and youll see there is nothing special about them.
Learn all about the various methods of excitation and regulation before digging into them. The brushless pilot exciter is my favorite version. Some regulate by core saturation (unregulated), and some use a capacitor much like a capacitor run motor to limit field current, and some use the AVR. Inverters use a 3 phase unregulated PM alternator and use the inverter to produce frequency and voltage regulated output. Very few inverter generators use a field winding. Most are magnets. In piloted brushless generators, sometimes the field rectification diodes fail. This is mounted in the rotor, so can be a pain to fix. I do prefer the brushless types, either inverter, or pilot exciter.
The inverter generators are a different beast but there are only a few minor variations I've seen in the classic conventional generators. Once you've been inside a few of them they all start to look pretty similar, you'll see the same handful of problems over and over and be able to recognize most of them pretty quickly.
👌🏻
Yeah, I just went and bought a new one that works. I don't have time to spend on messing around with these. You have a lot of patience.
Thanks to your vid I was able to get my Powermate 8000 working again, the AVR was swollen and cracked on the back side. $68. dollars later with a new AVR and it works like a champ, I also cleaned the brushes with electronic cleaner. Now on to getting the engine to run better.
In the UK there is a vast difference between your grid and ours. It is so good to see this from both sides very educational.This is good so I watch with great interest.
To you and the many knowledgeable commenters I appreciate you all sharing your knowledge as that's essentially how I've dealt with life. If I need something, I get a job doing it type of thing. I can rebuild a transmission, wire a house but I never got into electronics the way I should have. You all are helping change that. 👍
Just watched this one AGAIN before going to assess a unit for sale with no power tomorrow morning. Thanks again for the level of detail and clarity that you provide in ALL of your videos James!
Good luck! That is a nice generator. Hopefully the power head can be saved.
This is the most well explained video I've seen so far on the obscure cause of a generators death. That was a lot better then the readings are wrong so lets just declare it dead. Please do some more generator videos James. The video was really helpful.
This was the first video of yours that I watched. Then I watched pretty much every other video you've published over the course of a week. Just got my generator back in action this morning thanks to you! Thank you so much! Great educational channel!
Thanks. Glad to hear you were able to gets your running again.
@@jcondon1 ,,,
Excellent video! The theory on the electromagnetism and how the generator produces power is awesome.
I've got that same radio shack meter. It still works fine. Thanks for making these videos. I repair small engines on the side, but generators were something I had little clue about. I have a lot of DC electronics experience, but AC motors, alternators and generators were pretty foreign to me, until I discovered you and Jeremy Fielding (I think that's his name).
Thanks! He knows a lot more about it.
James thanks for these videos! I bought a China Generator (DS4000s) as a backup. It will likely sit for years before I use it. After I bought it understanding it will need some spare parts I selected brushes and an AVR. The spare AVR arrived with the mounting tabs broke off. I disassembled (took the potting out) the broken AVR and discovered a few things that people should understand. First, the circuit board and workmanship were kind of substandard. Second, the AVR maintains the adjustable voltage (via the pot on the AVR) by using a MOSFET. The part nobody’s talking about is the MOSFET gets hot (the nature of a MOSFET) but it's incased in the potting material. Really kind of a bad idea, it will fail if it gets too hot and it will. Compound the heat issue with the fact they run the MOSFET close to max, using full load it won't last forever. All said and done my generator is rated to run just under 30 AMPs continues load. I think running it at 80% (20AMPS or so) of rated load will keep the AVR and windings healthy. Just wanted to share the discovery, the AVR was really difficult to take apart! I do want this generator to work when I need it. So:
Drain the fuel bowl, I’m taking it off.
Drain the fuel tank
Check the oil before start-up (for fuel and level)
Pick some good spares
Know how the thing works!
Thanks!!!
I am going through your YT about no power and I am learning like it is a College level class on testing and diagnosing generators. Thank You so very much for posting these very high-quality You Tubes.
Jim been watching for a while I have been a auto/heavy duty truck mechanic for 43 years and I have learned so much from you, as far as I am concerned you are the BEST, Thanks just a real treasure watching and learning!
Thanks, I appreciate the comment
This is great. I want to see when there is a hopeless case. When all the tests lead to the fact that it is now just a parts donor. Yes, I want to fix the generators that come into my shop, but at some point, you get one of these. Then it's a matter of telling the owner. He/she can now decide how to proceed. Thank you again for the great info you share.
Me too. He should be teaching small engine repair and generator repair at the local community college!!! I want to hang out with this guy fie a weekend to absorb his brilliance.
Generator safety th-cam.com/video/I1jT3ANENvI/w-d-xo.html
You are the best by far.
Thanks for the info. My slip rings measured 83 ohms after I soldered the broken wire and generator still worked !
Nice explanations for a total newbie like myself. I will definitely be watching your others videos! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Don’t forget about generator safety th-cam.com/video/I1jT3ANENvI/w-d-xo.html especially keep children safe when using generators. Thank you.
Typically I look for the shortest videos bc my patience doesn't allow me to listen to people that like to hear themselves talk, lol. For some reason, probably bc I was desperate I watched this entire video. Thank you for being straight to the point and explaining things so well! I got my generator running again😊
James this is the best in-depth I’ve seen. Thorough on steps and test results. Correct test equipment. Great explanation. Thoughtful analysis. My opinion you clearly show details on a power head that fails. Too many other vids show what’s good/right of which there is no comparison. Thumbs up, 5-*****. Tom.
Those "strange marks" on the brushes just mean they haven't worn into the slip rings because they are near-new. The slip rings are round and brushes start with flat / squared ends hence only the middle part makes contact with the slip ring. You can clearly see how the worn brushes are curved on the end to match the slip ring circumference. I'm surprised James doesn't know this basic part of brushes with all his experience working on generators.
I was thinking the same thing. When I've taken them out they have a curve at contact area to match slip rings. They looked perfectly fine to me and barely even worn from just few minutes of run time. That generator is basically new.
In my youth I was a repair man at a local Black and Decker repair center. We used commutator seating/cleaning sticks to treat brushes that weren't making good contact. They're available commercially. Hold against the commutator / slip rings while armature is spinning and brushes are installed to make them seat and conduct well.
Great diagnosis James. I have just bought one that’s not putting any power out. I will use your instruction to diagnose mine. Thank you.
Thank you for teaching me.
I know nothing about these generators but this helped me learn a little. I’m excited to watch more! You have a great voice and are so great to listen to! Thank you, sir.
Thanks
Thanks, you just saved me a bundle. I had no idea that they could lose magnetism from sitting. Your detailed shot of hooking up the 12V battery did the trick.
I was always told to let it run once a month for at least 30 minutes to prevent loss of residual magnetism
Thanks for your practical experience and troubleshooting. I revived a Champion generator by watching this video.
Good to hear! Thanks
Thanks for sharing the troubleshooting steps. It really helped me understand my generator issue though it is different manufacturer which stator found burnt.
Excellent search and research and conclusion. Best of luck
Just fixed an old suzuki se4000sed generator, the carbon and brass oxidization on the sliprings stopped voltage from flowing, the new avr was bad the old one still worked fine.
Hey man I appreciate what your doing! Convinced me to clean the carb on a generac 5000 from the 90s that never ran good.. for first start in 20 years I got no smoke or knock! Briggs 11hp lives again in the form of a minibike:) thank you for all your help
Good thorough video. Thanks for sharing. Super storm Ria just passed leaving havoc. Generators are big issues now.
Thank you. I followed the logic and found my problems to be a very dirt slip ring. Cleaned both sliprings and the brushes, and was back to being fully operational. I had purchased a voltage regulator and repaced it, to no avail, so now have a spare voltage regulator.
Professional diagnosis thank you James!!!
I enjoyed your thorough troubleshooting video.
I just picked up a Champion generator...after getting the motor up and running....the outlets do not have power however the generator has a set of led lights and they work.
I am going to try your troubleshooting steps next.
Than you for such a thorough video.
Awesome video.
This helped me troubleshoot a similar generator at work.
Rotor had failed . Had over 10 volts to brushes with AVR disconnected and generator running .
Nice job. Thanks. I'm going to use your info to help me figure out my issue. I suspect my AVR. The one I have surges. Power, no power, power, no power. At times it will energize for a while and function. More recently it rarely keeps putting out power. You can watch the gauge pulse up and down. I'm wondering what the issue is, but feel much more confident looking into it after watching your video. You've given me a much better understanding of how these work. They are not the same as automotive alternators.
Very good demonstration with details. LIked it. Thank you
Your last comment about the rubbing on the inside and being taken apart before I've been there didn't get the stator rotor alignment right had power for about two minutes smelled plastic burning and by the time I killed the engine power was gone and the damage was done unfortunately second replacement alternator head I took the spark plug out and free spun everything by thank God I did that because that one was misaligned also had to torque the 4 bolts to get it right until it spun with no resistance lesson learned the hard way thanks for your video too
So glad the video is still 'around'. Great video explaining the principles of operation....Thank you Sir, learned a lot here.
i was looking for such video :) last night my 3Kva Generator stopped working .. Basically, the rotor struck with Armature because of a crack in the overall body of the Dynamo where the Bearing of the rotor is there. it means the rotor and armature got touched with each other.
The wiring of the Armature looks pretty bad but the readings are 5O Ohm :) i think the wiring is still safe :) ............... Wish me good luck :)
thank for lightening up my head...
Just a quick note on "Someone has been here before" with the permanent magnets. Sometimes someone will flash a field backwards, or it gets hit with a high current in the stater that "Reverse flashes" the field, so the initial voltage when starting to build field, has to collapse to zero in a polarity reversal. Only time I have seen this is when "Someone has been here before". Be sure the polarity is correct when flashing or testing with your battery. Wrong polarity opposite the permanent magnets will result in lower voltage. If you get lower voltage, check the polarity. You want to aid the magnets, not reverse them. Hope this helps. It is possible you had your 12 volt battery backwards and reverse flashed it before testing the alternate regulator. The low voltage is an indicator. For testing if this is the case, a D cell flashlight battery can be used. Connect both ways and note the polarity which provided the highest AC voltage. This indicates the polarity of the field and may indicate it was flashed backwards. If you add a diode in series with your battery, and a current limiting resistor, such as 1 ohm 25 watt, you can bump the field with the unit running and the AVR connected. Done properly, it will get the field building to where the AVR takes over and the diode protects the battery from the high voltage. This can save time in troubleshooting.
isettech Great comment and suggestion!
Hello Isettech, sounds like u do this for a livelihood. Is it possible that the AVR is
not seeing enough a.c. volts from the exciter winding because 1 defective rotor
2 bad exciter winding. if even a short between a few turns that could be the loss
of enough volts to not let the avr work? or soldered leads from field winding need
to be re-flowed due to too high a resistance between them and slip rings.
I had been given a power supply for a radiola 60 was told it was good, but it was
also a good fifty yrs old, I ran a hot soldering iron ove the joints and yes there was power.
@@raymondgarafano8604 I do related work. If you feed 12 volts into the field, then test the voltage into and out of the AVR, and the AC output voltage, the 12 volts of excitation should produce a higher voltage into the AVR so it can output higher than 12 Volts to the field, so if it was connected the voltage would build until the AVR limits field current. If there is a problem with the windings, the 12 volts of excitation will produce less than 12 volts for the AVR and field voltage, which would result in a collapse of voltage if connected instead of building. It is best to test with a funcitoning unit, then compare results when feeding 12 volts into the filed to see normal AC into the AVR and normal DC out at normal running speed. If the AC to the AVR is the same between two units, the problem is with the AVR. If the AC to the AVR is much lower, then you have a winding problem.
@@isettech Thanks very much, If there is a problem with the windings, the 12 volts of excitation will produce less than 12 volts for the AVR and field voltage, which would result in a collapse of voltage if connected instead of building.
Do you mean a problem with the exciter windings in the stator,? and that
the field voltage will be less than 12 v.d.c. meaning that the specs will say
the output from exciter should be 12 v.a.c. but due to a problem with the
exciter winder u will get less than 12 volts? I have seen that happen, where a short between turns cuts out the overall effectiveness of the coils. so I
guess I could say 1f there are 80 turns of a coil to get 120 volts, then each
turn would = a volt and a half and if ten turns shorted at one spot the a.c.
volts would never be more than 105 as due to a short 15 volts are lost.
Do rotors ever burn out?? I know the brushless have on shaft or on board
diodes to change a.c. in one coil to d.c.
thank you very much again, these gens are a lot different than traction
generators found on diesel electric locomotives with hydraulicaly operated
load regulators running off the governor. it was known that for each throttle
pos. a given amount of traction power was available and the gen was set so
for each throttle pos. a given amount of field was sent to the gen otherwise
4 notches out on the throttle, there'd be 875 hp but if the field was for full
throttle, the gen would not have the mechanical beef behind it. And at full
throttle with half the field, the whole system would be underloaded.
@@raymondgarafano8604 When you have a problem with a generator failing to excite, a troubleshooting method is to disconnect the field from the regulator and connect an external 12V battery to it, then measure voltages. With a failure to excite condition, there is very low or no voltage making troubleshooting difficult for AVR or windings. This use of external known power allows testing of the remaining components to find which is failing to excite. This does work on brushless as you power the stationary winding on the exciter Field, and then if everything including diodes are working, the excitation will produce some AC and power the AVR. If diodes or windings are bad, you will get no or less voltage to the AVR. If they are good you will get more voltage to the AVR that can build field until the AVR limits the building of voltage at the desired regulated voltage. Most machines with diodes and brushless, have one or two of the filed pole pieces with a magnet embedded to provide enough "Residual" magnetism to overcome the forward voltage drop on the diodes to ensure excitation starts. Not all brushless designs contain these magnets in the field pole pieces. If there are shorted turns in the AC stator, this type of test can sometimes result in high current in shorted turns and produce smoke. If there is shorted turns in the field, this simply results in lower than expected AC voltage to the AVR.
Thanks for that final touch back on the stator issue. It will let me get some sleep tonight.
Yes, without that last picture i'am also would not going to get sleep tonight.
Loved the video. very good job on step by step and the fact you posted one that was not a slam dunk is even better.
Thank you for the comprehensive generator video and not another Circuit Breaker video.
Thank you for the explanations in this video. I was able to correct the faults on my generator thanks to this.
Helpful information. Great work. Thank you James
Using a Megger you can test the insulation quality of the windings to ground.
CAUTION !! Besure to disconnect ALL electronics before carrying out this test. Keep up the great work 👍🇦🇺
Excellent video, very clear and detailed. Everything explained in terms a novice can understand. I'm having the same issue with my generator and with your video I'll now dig into it. Thank you!
would have test AVR voltage before disassembly. look on the bright side you could just rig a DC source of some sort to it
The idea to pull out armature is pretty cool.
Thanks so much. Took it apart and the brush holder was melted
Replaced and fine. You showed me how to do it. Living off grid a generator is a lifeline
Thank you for the nice lesson from a computer repair shop owner :-)
James you are very good at diagnosis the problems of these generators. I thank you so much. You helped me find the problem with mine. Keep up the good work YOU ARE AWSOME !!!!!!
Thanks
Best video on this subject I've seen so far. Thanks!!!
Thank you sir.
Great work James , ENJOYED !! I have seen the rotor look great and be bad . Testing like you did is the way to go !!
Thanks.
Sir, thankyou. Very informative
thank you for the information sir
Very good Video. One thing to mention. Make sure the Brass Rings on the commutator are clean and shine. I had a good reading at the brush terminals and did all the test you showed in this video but did not get any Power and then I remember what my dad always told me and that was to make sure the rings are copper shine. Guess what after I clean the rings with a little emery cloth. Bingo worked Fine.
plug drill into it start gen twist the drill and leave a load on it so it dont drop voltage..some cases it works
I'm so glad that I kept looking for better genset troubleshooting videos. Yours is by far the most comprehensive one I've come across. I like your methodical approach, gradually getting deeper into the system. I'm happy this machine wasn't repairable since we got to see everything you had in your arsenal. Bad luck for you in this case but it made for a great video. Thank you very much for taking the time. Now, where's my meter?
I think you could perform a high voltage winding test by placing your trouble light in series with a rotor or stator winding and connect the ground lug to case. Use a gfi outlet. They are very sensitive to leakage currents
Great video for beginners.. Thank you very much..
Incredibly helpful, thanks so much!!
The ropes are call wire lacing. Fantastic troubleshooting of this fault. I learned tons. THANX.
Thanks
I really really do love all your Videos. Thanks so much
Hello James When I was fault finding on Generators I usually used a meger, for insulation testing and thank you for the Video
Yes, that is the proper tool for testing insulation. Will add that to my list of tools I want to buy. Although might not make sense for me since I do not do enough volume to offset that cost.
@@jcondon1 I got a Megger of Amazon for under $50. I measured the 1Kv output, and it was actually 1Kv. Here's one that's similar to my older one. Just look on Amazon. This link is way too long. jd
www.amazon.com/VICI-Insulation-Resistance-Megohmmeter-Function/dp/B07PPLYV2X/ref=pd_vtp_328_4/137-6267494-0124665?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07PPLYV2X&pd_rd_r=48ba69ba-923d-4f85-bac5-ded7041e13cb&pd_rd_w=meKSu&pd_rd_wg=vjAyK&pf_rd_p=2f0ac0b2-44b6-4a63-a1f1-ced82560ff89&pf_rd_r=MD6CZTH19QSMQRCFREX0&psc=1&refRID=MD6CZTH19QSMQRCFREX0
Thanks for sharing you help me out big time with the 2 bruch wires
Good info, I brought a honda eb5000x from the scrap yard with a blown motor. When I ordered the parts to get it running I had no power so I did the tests you did on your video, still no power so my final test I put a 12v battery to the brushes then I had power, so happy now so thank you so much for this video without i might have trashed it
Nice find! Rare for a Honda to end up in the trash. Glad you could save it.
Stay safe and carefully use your portable generator th-cam.com/video/I1jT3ANENvI/w-d-xo.html here’s an advice about keeping your family safe while using generators. Keep children safe at all times when using generators especially. Thank you
Another great informative video. I have a small engine shop but don't get to many generators except for engine issues. Have learned a lot from your video. Many thanks.
Thanks.
Learned alot from you,...thanks for making this video.
I really enjoyed the troubleshooting process thank you!!
Awesome video. Great explanation and troubleshooting.
A valuable video full of Ohms, volts, DC/AC. For and applies to most motors made now:)))
Great review of the problem James bad luck but I learnt a lot from this vidio
Fixed my generac following your steps, thanks for posting this video
Thanks James just bought a brand new powerhorse 4000ES from northern tool for $100 because they said it needed a gen head watched your video did some testing found it had become demagnetized. Put 12 volts to it and boom it’s working perfect now. Thank you so much. Took a gamble and it worked.
Very nice
This is an excellent video I have watched some other video on the subject and repaired a few but the detail in a great teaching tool. Thank You.
Glad it was helpful!
Good work. Very thorough troubleshooting.
Thanks for posting I learned a great amount of knowledge
Thanks for valuable lesson!
That was fun to watch!
thank you.
Very good video James.
You are helping me out alot and I truly appreciate it.
I've learned more from you in one video then I have the 3 videos prior.
Good video and good teaching 👍👍
Generator safety th-cam.com/video/I1jT3ANENvI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the step by step approach.
I thank you very much! The generator I’m working on, had lost residual magnetism. When I introduced 12 V to the brushes, it brought back the output…
You can use a small transformer to step down the output voltage of the stator to any voltage less than the max input of your avr and supply tye avr to do the voltage adjustment
You did a great job along with camera shots. My gen stopped putting out power, did some of your checks & my problem turned out to be a lose connection at the breaker. THANKS.
Nice, you got luck on that one.
@@jcondon1 It takes a lot of time to setup & video what you did. Very good JOB. I learned a few things from your video, at 71+ I am still in school.
Thank you for sharing
Excellent diagnostic flow
Very informative
That is a great video you did a great job of explaining and you're right you can't win them all but if you win the majority that's the great part
Great video
It helps very much thank you
Very detailed. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for your time and clear discussion
Thank you that was helpful
Good job sir thanks for sharing new supporters here
Thanks for the wonderful video ,I managed to get it back in shape