Matthias, I have been using link belts now for about 4 years on all of my stationary tools. The first one I installed was put in backwards. It exhibited the same wear as yours and it was loud. I reversed the belt and the sound and wear went away. I am a long term subscriber, and your videos with your problem solving approach, with tool designs are great.
Matthias; I had the same whine on one of my machines ( I use the link belts on all the machines in my shop, except my bandsaw which uses a serpentine. ) and found that on that one I had installed it with the "tail" going in the direction of the rotation. Reversed the belt and the whine went away ... just my 2p. Been using link belts for over a decade now and will never go back.
I had a similar problem with my horizontal bandsaw. Massively reduced the vibration by fitting a 12 inch outrigger with a 1/2 lb lead weight on it. Increases the tension to the belt ( and as you know, V belts are designed to work under high tension) and significantly reduces vibration. Thank you for another great video. :)
Matthias, I have found very few times where I have disagreed with you; however, my experience with the Link Belts over fifteen plus years is different. I have never had link fail nor show any appreciable wear. As for noise I have it very quiet compared to most V belts. Perhaps it is because I use only machined cast iron and steel pulleys (except for my new Wandelian 16" bandsaw with one wooden pulley). Machines include two drill presses, a table saw , a wood lathe, a metal lathe, a metal bandsaw, and two sanders. Thank uou for your wonderful and insightful videos, inventions, and plans.
All true.. .one other thing to consider is climate.....I live in southwest Iowa where the temperature will freeze and thaws several dozen times over a years time....rubber HATES that. Linked belt on my s#!t for sure.
We used them in the military in our emergency kits because they can be used for nearly any belt. I only ever had to use one once for a fan belt on a 100kw generator, it lasted the week running 24/7 and as soon as we received the new belt we replaced it.
I have a older cast iron contractor style saw that I love. The standard V belts will assume a memory (of the pulley) if left in place too long without running. I avoid this by removing the belt from the motor when not in use (letting it hang from the trunnion pulley). It's easy enough to do and really takes no effort at all except remembering to do it. Just lift the motor and slip the belt off.... 3 seconds max...This extends the vibration free life of my belt tremendously.
You can see at 0:20 he does have it fitted correctly with tabs trailing. I would guess his link failures are due to his belt being over tensioned by the motor in effect hanging off it. I've seen engineering equipment being driven by these belts without fault for years. That he said he's broken a couple of links suggest there was something not right with his setup to me.
Hi. Last year I switched to Fenner Powertwist belts - partly because I had a bit of vibration, the other reason was on my lathe a continuous belt would mean removing the lathe spindle. Anyway, I digress, you and your viewers will find assembly/disassembly of Fenner belts much easier by turning the belt inside out (actual advice from manufacturer). Thanks.
I've had the same link belt on my saw for 15-20 years now and never had any problems. I use the saw everyday on a lot of exotic hard woods. I can barely tell when the saw is running its so quiet and smooth...
Application of a component is always key... A linked belt on my compressor made a *huge* difference in noise and overall vibration. Linked belts also function extremely well in a VFD converted Jet drill press. Of course, both of these shop tools are relatively low-speed devices.
On my contractors saw, I replaced the pulleys with a 6-groove flat belt version (similar to an automotive flat belt). Very smooth and quiet! A spring to put some downward tension on the motor also helped. When I bought my Delta Uni-saw, it has a 3 belt setup, which is super smooth. I use the link-belts on my jointer and two sanders and am very happy with it for those applications.
I work with HVAC equipment so im around motors and sheaves a lot. When you have a smaller diameter sheave like on your table saw you would be better off to use a BX belt or an AX belt(depending on the horsepower of your motor). The 'X' just implies that the belt is notched like you showed in your video. They will be able to take the tighter curves on the smaller diameter sheaves a lot better and should reduce the belt from holding an irregular shape.
Matthias, I think link belts can be very quiet when run in the proper direction but I mainly use them as a temporary, sometimes permanent fix. I had an old Walker Turner wood lathe where you had to remove the shaft/step pulley to change belt. A link belt was easier to replace and ran quieter. I also have an old John Deere lawn tractor that has the alternator and fan pulleys on the back side of the engine. Super PITA to replace that belt. A link belt takes a minute. I keep 3/8" and 1/2" belts around for emergencies. Thanks.
The vibration link belts "fix" is usually caused by lack of rigidity in the machine and motor mount. All of the machines that I own that run smoother with link belts are lightweight and value engineered. Glenn
I suggest you try an "AX" belt. The "A" (3V, whatever) indicates belt width and the "X" indicates a notched inner surface. The notches might be expected to introduce a hum but that doesn't seem to happen. These X series belts are more supple than the solid and better suited for running on small power tool pulleys. Here's something to try: take one of your older belts that still has some life in it, turn it inside out (so the narrow side is in the periphery), set a depths stop on your band saw to limit the cut line to 1/2 the thickness of the belt or more almost to the tension band. Make dozens of straight in cuts through the narrow edge all around the belt. Make the cuts about 5/16" to 3/8" (8 to 10 mm) apart but make them uniform in spacing. Keep an eye peeled as the start comes around and adjust the cut spacing so that last dozen cuts are uniform. If you fall asleep, the last part will come up too wide for one cut and too narrow for two. That may make your modified belt a "thumper." Flip the belt outside in and install on the saw for test. I've modded many V belts in this way on sensitive equipment (drill press?) and never observed significant loss of power transmission or durability except where I mis-diagnosed the location of the tension band. This mod should make the belt very supple and all but vibration-free depending on the pitch of the cuts and their uniformity of depth. You do have to avoid the tension band. Some belts place this band close to the periphery; some near the center. If the band is close to the periphery, you can make the cuts deeper - but be careful. You can determine the band's location by manually flexing the belt and observing its behavior.
For years I used the red version sold by Rockler on a big Craftsman tablesaw, and found it to be a huge reduction in vibration and noise. Sold that saw when my contractor brother gifted me a used Delta Contractor Saw. Didn’t immediately change the belt even though it was vibrating. It ended up vibrating the motor out of the mounts and slinging that 50# motor about 15’… which as exciting. I have now placed the green Harbor Freight version of the belt on my saw (and repaired the other damage from the motor mishap), and it absolutely hums. Before, if I left items like a tape measure or push sticks sitting on the saw while it was running they’d vibrate off in a few seconds. Now, they don’t move at all. When comparing notes with my brother, we determined the belt that failed was likely the original equipment- about 40 years old! Learned my lesson!
I have found that in non dusty applications where the pullies are of larger diameter they hold up great. Scoring blade on panels saw no. Table saw no. Fan belts on old tractor yes. Mill drill with large diameter pullies on the drives, so far so good... I wish they would recommend pulley diameter on the package, as the belts are expensive. We need to share our experiences so others don't have to learn the hard way. Keep up the educational and entertaining videos.
I was once considering a link belt when I found an inexpensive serpentine (Poly-V) belt + pulley upgrade set for my Craftsman/Ridgid contractor saw. ...nice because it came with 3 pulleys (2 same size, 1 slightly larger) so you could choose three different speeds by how you pair them up. Bought on eBay for $20 or less. For other machines I like the toothed style belt that Matthias showed, for their flexibility and grip -- you can run at a lower tension, which probably would make bearings last longer.
I got myself my first link-belt for my small metal lathe yesterday and compared to the old rubber V-belt, I'm very satisfied with the reduced vibrations. I use it so little so I think (hope) it will last many years.
My table saw vibrates and is noisy, but figure out what the problem was, but I was thinking of buying one of those link belts. Glad I saw your video. After hearing the sound examples you play, I just said to my self: "forget the link belt".. Thanks Mr. Matthias Wandel
Thank you for saving me time, money and learning the hard way. Never had a link belt and was just going to buy one today and try it. I'm sticking with the time tested v-belts.
I have a link-belt on my 1961 Craftsman 10" table saw. It has been on for about 4 years and it made a world of difference in eliminating the vibration. I also have one on my metal working lathe.
These things are good when you got a lathe and you have to disassemble the headstock to get the belt replaced, easier to disassemble the belt. Or when building a machine and not being quite sure of the exact distance the motor will come from the pulley...
Use link belts on all my WW tools. I noticed on my belts you can run them in both directions, one direction causes the links to fail. Maybe that is your problem. One other thing I do, change all my pulleys to high quality turned instead of the out of round cast pulleys that come with many WW tools, even some expensive tools come with cheap pulleys. Makes a huge difference in how smooth the machines run. PS, Sounds obvious but the link belt runs and works better when turning with the links turning in the proper rotation. I never!!! Had a link belt fail on me. Thanks for entertaining videos, Vinny
When I'm not using a tool for a long time, or there is a lot of tension on the pulley, I remove the belt to prevent curvature. When I setup my benchtop metal lathes I made the motor mounts so that I could remove the belt easy, literally I can remove the belt in two seconds. Very handy.
The Craftsman lathe has a main pulley that can be pulled in and locked... when not using it, you don't even think about it... you pull the lever to the forward position and walk away... When you want to use it you drop the pulley back and turn it on. that was a good design... mine was made in 1961... but I think they were doing it that way in the 1920's as well. Some newer equipment didn't have that kind of thought put into it.
You mean like a on/off (eccentric) countershaft. My Craftsman 109.20630 doesn't have one, but I may make one eventually to get backgear like speeds without using the backgear, as the cast zinc gears will wear out eventually. I looked at an Atlas 10F that had the vertical eccentric countershaft, seemed like a useful addition.
Andre Gross The motor pulley is hinged... there is a pull bar that you can pull to relieve tension to switch between high and low pulley settings. It has a metal ring on it... if you lift, pull, and set the ring on the other side of two "fingers"... it keeps the pulley slack. I leave it in that position when not in use... just a habit I've gotten into.
Oh yeah, one of those hinged motor setups for switching pulleys and the weight of the motor sets tension. I have that setup on my T.Taylor lathe, very quick to change speeds.
Agreed! Sometimes, less is more. No need to reinvent the wheel. For people who regularly have periods where their table isn't used, just take 10 seconds and remove the belt :)
My Dad's old Craftsman table saw has a simple solution to the bouncing motor problem. The motor is hinged to allow the blade to be moved as per usual, but it also moves past a plate with an arc cut-out that's mounted to the saw frame. There's a knurled knob that screws into the motor housing through the arc cutout. So when you want to move the saw blade, you loosen the knob, adjust the blade height, then tighten the knob again to fix the motor in place. No bouncy motor!
Sure, he runs the link belt backwards and didn't dampen the vibrations introduced by his sloppy motor setup.. There is not much more one can do wrong here really. No wonder he gets crappy results.
I purchased a thin belt like a car would have from ebay for my craftsman saw. I have had it about 10 years. Very little vibration and less noise than a link belt. It came with the new pulleys. I have been well satusfied with this upgrade. Might be worth trying.
I always try to replace my v-belts belts with cogged belts, AX in the case of your saws. The link belt was originally created for the purpose of emergency repairs. They allow a shop to stock a long piece of link belt to replace a broken belt with the intention of replacing the broken belt with the correct v-belt. Problem with link belts is they can cause more pulley wear which leads to more frequent belt replacements. Bottom line, I never use a link belt unless it's temporary.
There are two very similar link belts. Red made in the USA and green made in Italy. The green link belt sheds glue dust and de-laminates and its links break quickly. I have "Power Twist Plus"" v-belts" by Fenner Drives - made in the USA. They are red and I have them on Table saw, lathe and the extra links installed on my drill press. The oldest is 14 years and the newest 10 years, no breakage or noise yet. Colors can easily be changed, read the label.
used a link belt on my general Int drill press and it really reduced the vibration , to me was worth it to get rid of the vibration , been using it for over 5 years, seen alot of use and the belt still look new , never have broken a link. Using it on a table saw where saw dust and debris would get into the links would definitely shorten its life. And make sure their installed going in the right direction
Enjoy your videos. I think you're on the right track when you talk about the "cog" style of v-belt. These are supposed to perform better on smaller diameter sheaves.
you can use the big springs found in washing machines and attach the to the motor, it prevents the bouncing a lot ^^ also you could make a pully wearing system using a 10-100mw motor, a mini solar panel, and a serie of gears to make the belt turn slowly, to prevent it from taking an oval shape
Your right about the rubber belts taking on the curvature of the pulley if the motor isn't run for a few days. I find the problem is much worse during winter if your shop is not constantly heated and they sit idle in the cold. Before radial tires, the old rubber/nylon tires would flatten on the bottom if the vehicle wasn't moved for a few days in winter and you'd get a thump...thump...thump as you drove down the road for the first two kilometers. The link belts are a solution for this problem but the solution comes at five times the cost. I'm going to try the "gator style" belt, with the ribs on the inside, hoping it might be the best of both worlds.
Machine shops have great expertise in dealing with this issue. Flat belts powered by DC motors remove vibration from the machines as well as tool marks caused by vibrations and AC ripple. Obviously sawdust and chips must not be allowed to get onto the belt at all. Flat belts are a highly perfected drive system.
We have been using Power Twist Plus Link V-Belts in our belt driven HVAC equipment for several years with no noticeable increase in wear on steel or iron sheaves. Installation is a breeze...you simply roll them on. Standard V-belts can be damaged if you do this. We also no longer have to stock multiple belt sizes.
I am not going to mention turning the belt around because too many people have already told you that, but here is something else that you may try that can help some of you is to soak your belts and warm water to soften them up and it seems to help mine quite a bit And is easier to put on as well
I'm not going to read through all the comments to see if others mentioned the improvement that a properly machined and balanced pulley makes. I obtained new ones from transmission supply in Calgary. It's also possible to get a slightly bigger pulley to replace the motor pulley.
i use link belts for the drive on my dirt bike and its perfect i also use them in my truck and my power supply witch is a jacks-haft alternator and motor mounted in a frame on the power supply the belt goes over 3 pullies and it runs about 40 hours a week and it still hasn't failed i think link belts do best if you keep tension on them i think the slack is your biggest problem maybe spring load the motor
Hi Matt, Pretty sure you're right about choosing an ideally sized solid belt, however the link type is smooth and a quick easy fix though as you say, expensive. You might spend that much trying out several belts though. The smoothness of the link type allowed me to leave objects on the saw without them walking around. Your drink doesn't fizz up. Actually the link types were developed as an emergency fix for automobiles on the road. We used to have two or three belts of different lengths on the older cars. One link belt would do for any of the lengths, and that possibility makes them valuable in the shop today. You don't have to stop what you're doing and drive to town for a belt, just adjust the length of your link spare and continue. On the contractor saw with the 'gravity' tensioning motor, just snub it with a bungee. Use one long enough so that the springiness is subtle.
de-tensioning the belt when the saw is off, installing some kind of stop for the motor so it eases off the belt when the blade is all the way retracted. adding a spring that pulls down on the motor mount to dampen any bouncing, or if you wanted to go hardcore, rigidly mounting the motor, and using a single serpentine belt with one side of the belt on a tensioner/idler that keeps the belt tensioned with a spring (expert mode: using a constant force spring inside some kind of telescoping arm). i think a serpentine belt has the best combination of qualities you're looking for between a flat belt and a v belt for driving power tools
The issue is with slack. The issue is also with time causing the rubber to malform. My thoughts are that if the setup used a tension rod between the motor and saw blade, there would be a constant pressure which may lessen the effects of the malformed rubber belt.
What an interesting and peculiar video ! I suspect the whine from the link belt is down to the air being driven by the bits of the links that stick out. There are several designs of link belt and some will likely be quieter than others. As for parking causing a belt to assume a shape, our old lathe (Myford ML7) has a belt tension lever - such that when the lathe is not in use, the belt tension can be released via this lever so allowing the belt to relax around the pulleys rather than be tightly round them. As for belt tension maintained by a fixed motor, the tensioner needs to be between the motor and the driven shaft - so when the saw blade is lowered, the motor is mechanically moved by the tensioner and not simply by gravity.
I have had very nice results by using a Gates premium notched vbelt on my ole craftsman 1hp tablesaw. I have been able to find this type of belt by takeing the original belt to a good automotive store and asking for a notched vbelt replacement. They are also quite durable . On the ole craftsman, I was able to watch the motor stop bouncing around while in operation. :-)
Very good editing to show the comparison. I have a green link belt on my old contractor's table saw, but I may visit my local auto parts store and see if they can pull a notched belt for me to try.
It looks to me like your standard rubber belt was an "A" type V-belt. The one you said was more flexible appears to be an "AX" type. It's cogged for greater flexibility. That makes it more suitable for smaller pulleys (less than about 3" dia.), and runs more smoothly.
make an spring to put between the motor the always have tension, nothing to strong that will hinder adjustment but still has positive tension or even a band type system like rubber bungee thats always pulling the motor down but still can be adjusted as the bungee stretches quite far
Always best to stick to manufactures spec I think link belts are best for when you can't slip it over the end it's in the middle of the shaft between bearings
Link belts are excellent for certain uses, but definitely not for everything. I've used them on a large machine where the belts were getting grease and water on them making them break down, and worse it was a four hour job to replace them. The link belts resist oil and water so they wouldn't go bad, and since they would turn at a very low speed they didn't have vibration or noise issues. Have you actually tried the cog-type belts? They generally last longer because without all the rubber constantly flexing it won't heat up as much, and you shouldn't have the problem of the curvature from them being in a fixed position. Only thing I'm not sure of is if they're louder.
I like link belts. I'm still using one I bought at Woodcraft 10 years ago but I've noticed a difference in quality in some of the newer link belts. It seems that the links are thicker (not necessarily good) and the edges are often roughly cut.
I also tried a link belt on my jointer. I was getting a massive vibration on my DJ-20, and I read that it is the belt, and a common problem for this jointer. I got a link belt for it, pricey, but it sure did remove the vibration issue. Unfortunately, I haven't used it that much, and the belt is getting a lot of wear on the edges, and the belt turns in the pulley when it hits the sections with the wear. I don't think it will last long. I've double checked the direction of the belt, and I followed all the directions, but I think I'm returning my link belt (I'm still within the 30 day return window). If I kept it, I'm sure it would be breaking all the time also.
You could build a system where the distance between the motor and the saw is fixed as you said, and to work around the problem of actually adjusting the saw depth can be done with a system that moves the motor and saw as one piece inside the table
Take your v-belt to an auto parts supplier and they can size it up for for the segmented one..but hmmm on the link belt, you put up a good point Matthius, but others below are saying great.
I have had a link belt on my TS for quite a while now. Never broke a link and have spares from leftover length anyway. I saved $ by getting one from Harbor Freight. Experimenting with other belts is also hit or miss. I have not tried machined pulleys. Would love a better TS but not in the budget!
You could maybe add a hook on top of the motor, such that when you do not use the table saw for a while you just lift it up and remove the strain on the belt (maybe easier would just be to unhook the belt). If you want something automatic you could use attach a string at the top of the motor and attach it via a pulley to a counterweight, which for the most part counteracts the weight of the motor, but not so much that the belt starts to slip. I have no idea if any of these ideas are practical and save (when you forget to unhook it for example) but it might be worth experimenting.
you could have a fixed motor and a third pulley with some spring for the tension and a mechanism that release the tension when you are not using it. All the vibration would be on the spring, the movement of the blade would also just pull more on the spring and i'm sure that you can figure a fast and easy tension release system
at 4:00 I was thinking you could put a long spring on the other side of the motor because it would keep the motor pulled down a bit to stop it from vibrating but it would also allow you to adjust the blade up and down.
What about suspending some sort of weight from the motor to act as a dampener? It be overcomplicated and would likely put more stress on the belt, but that might help reduce the motor vibration.
I have a link belt on my lathe, and I swear by it. I find they are much stronger than traditional rubber belts. Perhaps since the motor on the lathe is rigidly mounted, it cuts down on the vibration.
The problem with using ideal springs or bungee cords (not an ideal spring constant) is that they vary greatly depending on length, diameter, material, number of stands (bungee), etc. A Harbor Freight link belt is probably going to be about the same variability for a given run of a design. The other methods you would have more variable results. Also additional tension on the motor might cause more "set" in a standard belt during extended periods of downtime, whether by a spring, bungee cord, or counterweight.
I'm amazed the link belt worked well at all! I would have thought it would pump loads of first and second order vibrations thought the stiff saw and made loads of fuss...
Matthias Wandel Interesting, I never turn my saw on for entertainment, If it's running, it's cutting. I haven't noticed any offensive noise from my Powermatic but it does have a wide pulley grooved belt. Most of the noise comes from the blade spinning in the air.
+oceannavagator Because the sound it was making was not normal, thus it was indicating a problem somewhere. This can cause unnecessary wear and tear on a machine helping to shorten it's life. A smoothly running saw is a safer saw.
Link belts are only for temporary maintenance applications. Another lengthy debate on this just subsided on the Yahoo! Atlas Lathe Group. Its a recurrent subject because the entire Atlas lathe spindle has to be disassembled whenever replacing the v-belt. Therefore some Atlas owners favor link belts. Outside of such applications I can't imagine why anyone would want to use far more costly link belts. For instance, on a drill press as I see in another vid alongside this vid. You can buy four or five regular v-belts for the price of one link belt. The only other thing in favor of the link belt is it will replace an infinite range of shorter v-belts.
If you can find the correct size of toothed belt for your TS, it would be interesting to hear your conclusions. Of course direct drive solves the problems you mention here but brings in a whole new set of concerns. Thanks for sharing.
At a round 3:00 minutes where you're looking at the "oval" shaped belt. It's the obvious overtightening of belt that does it most likely. Unless machine is in very little use. But don't use link-belts unless you're into changing pulleys and bearings sooner. Link-belts are for short duration fixing method. I'm very surprised to see so many people commenting on using them. Fixing vibration with link type belt is most definitely a wrong way to go. Ask any maintenance people you come a cross.
I considered upgrading my old Table Saw with better pulleys and link belt but decided to sell off the saw and upgrade to a new ski saw worm drive technology contractor saw. Amazing little saw for the money and it is portable !
During my apprenticeship I learned that linked belts are just emergency fixes that should only be used when you really need a machine and don't have a suitable belt. The surface area of those linked belts that is put under tension is much smaller and the movement of the belt on those lose links causes a lot of wear. I you want your tool to run properly use a v-belt and turn it on at least once a week and if you go on vacations take out the belt :) So linked belts are great but not suitable for a permanent setup :) In case you want to reduce vibrations any further you could switch to a flat belt (which will need to be a lot wider) or a wider and flatter v-belt. I have no idea how anybody could believe this was a good idea in the first place :|
Exactly right. It's absolutely wrong way to try to fix vibrations with link belts. It's necessary indeed to change pulleys, belt type, motor fixing etc. to fix issue. Surprisingly few people seems to understand this.
I have a 12" Logan lathe. to change the drive belt to the headstock, you have to disassemble the spindle. I will use a link belt. The manufacturers tout them as suitable for permanent replacement. Naturally. Of course, this lathe is just for hobby use and won't see continuous duty.
The manufacturers will tell you anything you want to hear about their product ;) They want their products sold after all :D I'm not familiar with this kind of lathe :| I know Weiler, Deckel, Spinner, Okuma and Myford :) I wouldn't recommend it anyway. Especially it you want to do any thread cutting or press fitting with it :) I have a lathe for my hobbies as well and it runs on a v-belt as well I just built a release mechanism to change the spindle speed :)
Logan actuator company built fine metal lathes for some 50 years. I think the size of the sheaves on the headstock will allow enough surface contact to drive well. I really don't want to disassemble the headstock. I worked for a machine shop that had a small Jet lathe that was driven with a link belt and could do anything it was needed for. Of course, for any heavy work there were larger machines available. I am setting the Logan up with a 3/4 HP permanent magnet motor and a variable speed drive.
mikkosha For sure, manufacturers want you to believe their product is the one to buy. As a rule though, industrial suppliers don't recommend their product for applications for which they are unsuitable. That gets them a bad reputation. There are bound to be drawbacks but I believe the link belt will serve my purposes. For high torque applications, I have back gears. I can always go the trouble of installing a standard V belt if there are real issues.
I guess it's really a matter of the application. I have a 3 hp cabinet saw and it was excessively loud and vibrating so much it would rattle a 16oz hammer off the top. Switching belts to compare performance like you did would be a major hassle because with the yoke style trunnion access to the top pulley is really difficult. You literally have to take the table off to install new belts then realign the miter slots, shim it level etc etc. I took a chance on link belts and at least on my three belt drive system they are great. the belt tension can backed way off without slipping and this puts less pressure on the bearings. A saw I thought I'd have to replace is looking pretty good to me again.
I have been using these red link belts for decades. While they are much more expensive I have had much better service, from these linked belts. Come to think of it, I have never had a linked belt fail. I am using these linked belts on two 100 plus year old drill presses for the primary drive to the lower cone pulleys. I also have linked belts on a big two stage Ingersoll compressor, a lathe primary drive, polishers, grinders, and two band saws.. I would recommend these belts, if I were asked. To control table saw bounce, I have used a hydraulic life cylinder similar to those on hatches and engine covers. NAPA have the catalogues with the specifications. Go lighter strength. Mounting is simple.
There are few approaches here.. I used power twist belts for years...there are few applications where original V-belt is just simply better than twist belt. 1st make sure that both pulleys are fitting fort this type of belts, if they ride too high or bottom out, they will not work. There is also difference by brand names.. Some of them are very stiff and some other are more elastic... The biggest challenge with your project is that twist lock belts require very large amount of tension, only then theu become effective as regular V-belt...for applications where motor is creating tension just by pure gravity the success is low.. stick to regular V-belt... if your wallet can let go few more $$$ look up v-belts that are kevlar reinforced... they stay longer in original *round* shape... Hope this little info helps...
noise from a v belt comes much from friction btw the belt and the pulley as it enters and leaves it (not to mention slippage or rubbing the bottom of the pulley if mismatched), most cheap belts have an "incorporated" bump in the belt joint so they jump and vibrate a lot. generally the belt/pulley sizes are somewhat on the extreme side of the charts for these machines in order not to lose cutting capacity in the blade. i`ve converted my saw long ago to multi"v" belt and roller tensioners, no whine, no vibration but needs a lot of planning and precise assembly. my 2c. pete. ps cutting notches in the inside of some belts will only weaken them be careful
Link belts are great as a temporary fix to hold you over for a while until you can get a proper sized belt. Look into getting yourself AX or BX belts. They're the cogged type that shouldn't have much of a problem with deforming.
There are also different grades of v-belts too - my dad tried the canadian tire belts on a snow blower a long time ago - they failed after a few hours use. Then he discovered there's different grades of belts for different applications. Might want to look into that. Some saws do have the motor fixed mounted in relation to the blade as well. I have a General 350 that uses 2 very short (and very beefy) v-belts between the motor and the blade hub. The whole motor mount moves with the blade, and the tension is adjusted separately. Less vibrations that way! What HP is the motor on your saw? The General I have is 3HP. I'd expect a bigger saw would have to have the motor fixed mounted, but I'm surprised your Delta doesn't actually!
A Gates green stripe belt works great, but all belts are like tires, they will go bad just sitting there, so buy a fresh one, and that's hard to beat. A napa premium belt is actually made by gates, and is the equivalent of a green stripe.
Thanks to the info. I was going to get a link belt for my saw when the old one wore out now I think I just get another rubber v belt. Thanks Mathias, Roland
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Matthias, I have been using link belts now for about 4 years on all of my stationary tools. The first one I installed was put in backwards. It exhibited the same wear as yours and it was loud. I reversed the belt and the sound and wear went away. I am a long term subscriber, and your videos with your problem solving approach, with tool designs are great.
I agree with you Paul in every sentence! The link belts made my exhaust fan quieter and smoother. I wished I'd replaced the V belts a lot sooner.
Matthias; I had the same whine on one of my machines ( I use the link belts on all the machines in my shop, except my bandsaw which uses a serpentine. ) and found that on that one I had installed it with the "tail" going in the direction of the rotation. Reversed the belt and the whine went away ... just my 2p. Been using link belts for over a decade now and will never go back.
I had a similar problem with my horizontal bandsaw. Massively reduced the vibration by fitting a 12 inch outrigger with a 1/2 lb lead weight on it. Increases the tension to the belt ( and as you know, V belts are designed to work under high tension) and significantly reduces vibration. Thank you for another great video. :)
Matthias, I have found very few times where I have disagreed with you; however, my experience with the Link Belts over fifteen plus years is different. I have never had link fail nor show any appreciable wear. As for noise I have it very quiet compared to most V belts. Perhaps it is because I use only machined cast iron and steel pulleys (except for my new Wandelian 16" bandsaw with one wooden pulley). Machines include two drill presses, a table saw , a wood lathe, a metal lathe, a metal bandsaw, and two sanders. Thank uou for your wonderful and insightful videos, inventions, and plans.
All true.. .one other thing to consider is climate.....I live in southwest Iowa where the temperature will freeze and thaws several dozen times over a years time....rubber HATES that. Linked belt on my s#!t for sure.
We used them in the military in our emergency kits because they can be used for nearly any belt. I only ever had to use one once for a fan belt on a 100kw generator, it lasted the week running 24/7 and as soon as we received the new belt we replaced it.
I have a older cast iron contractor style saw that I love. The standard V belts will assume a memory (of the pulley) if left in place too long without running. I avoid this by removing the belt from the motor when not in use (letting it hang from the trunnion pulley). It's easy enough to do and really takes no effort at all except remembering to do it. Just lift the motor and slip the belt off.... 3 seconds max...This extends the vibration free life of my belt tremendously.
Link belts run in both directions, you have yours installed wrong way. Turn it around and it will run quieter and with less vibrations.
Hello Mmanut
He does have his on backward. Link belts are designed to run 1 way only, with tabs trailing.
th-cam.com/video/QLkHa257vmw/w-d-xo.htmlm24s
You can see at 0:20 he does have it fitted correctly with tabs trailing. I would guess his link failures are due to his belt being over tensioned by the motor in effect hanging off it. I've seen engineering equipment being driven by these belts without fault for years. That he said he's broken a couple of links suggest there was something not right with his setup to me.
@@BischBaschBosch good luck telling a guy like this that
Hahaha. Yeah. I’m on the spectrum to and I don’t take suggestion we’ll either. With that said, I see it in correctly too.
@@BischBaschBosch No, he's got the rotation wrong. As looking at it, the right hand side should be going up for the belt but is in fact coming down.
Hi. Last year I switched to Fenner Powertwist belts - partly because I had a bit of vibration, the other reason was on my lathe a continuous belt would mean removing the lathe spindle. Anyway, I digress, you and your viewers will find assembly/disassembly of Fenner belts much easier by turning the belt inside out (actual advice from manufacturer). Thanks.
I've had the same link belt on my saw for 15-20 years now and never had any problems. I use the saw everyday on a lot of exotic hard woods. I can barely tell when the saw is running its so quiet and smooth...
Application of a component is always key...
A linked belt on my compressor made a *huge* difference in noise and overall vibration. Linked belts also function extremely well in a VFD converted Jet drill press.
Of course, both of these shop tools are relatively low-speed devices.
On my contractors saw, I replaced the pulleys with a 6-groove flat belt version (similar to an automotive flat belt). Very smooth and quiet! A spring to put some downward tension on the motor also helped.
When I bought my Delta Uni-saw, it has a 3 belt setup, which is super smooth.
I use the link-belts on my jointer and two sanders and am very happy with it for those applications.
Where did you find the 6 groove pulleys? I've been looking at doing this myself. Thank you.
The way how you did the comparison editing was top notch Mathias! Love your videos!
I work with HVAC equipment so im around motors and sheaves a lot. When you have a smaller diameter sheave like on your table saw you would be better off to use a BX belt or an AX belt(depending on the horsepower of your motor). The 'X' just implies that the belt is notched like you showed in your video. They will be able to take the tighter curves on the smaller diameter sheaves a lot better and should reduce the belt from holding an irregular shape.
Matthias, I think link belts can be very quiet when run in the proper direction but I mainly use them as a temporary, sometimes permanent fix. I had an old Walker Turner wood lathe where you had to remove the shaft/step pulley to change belt. A link belt was easier to replace and ran quieter. I also have an old John Deere lawn tractor that has the alternator and fan pulleys on the back side of the engine. Super PITA to replace that belt. A link belt takes a minute. I keep 3/8" and 1/2" belts around for emergencies. Thanks.
The vibration link belts "fix" is usually caused by lack of rigidity in the machine and motor mount. All of the machines that I own that run smoother with link belts are lightweight and value engineered.
Glenn
I suggest you try an "AX" belt. The "A" (3V, whatever) indicates belt width and the "X" indicates a notched inner surface. The notches might be expected to introduce a hum but that doesn't seem to happen. These X series belts are more supple than the solid and better suited for running on small power tool pulleys.
Here's something to try: take one of your older belts that still has some life in it, turn it inside out (so the narrow side is in the periphery), set a depths stop on your band saw to limit the cut line to 1/2 the thickness of the belt or more almost to the tension band.
Make dozens of straight in cuts through the narrow edge all around the belt. Make the cuts about 5/16" to 3/8" (8 to 10 mm) apart but make them uniform in spacing. Keep an eye peeled as the start comes around and adjust the cut spacing so that last dozen cuts are uniform. If you fall asleep, the last part will come up too wide for one cut and too narrow for two. That may make your modified belt a "thumper."
Flip the belt outside in and install on the saw for test.
I've modded many V belts in this way on sensitive equipment (drill press?) and never observed significant loss of power transmission or durability except where I mis-diagnosed the location of the tension band.
This mod should make the belt very supple and all but vibration-free depending on the pitch of the cuts and their uniformity of depth. You do have to avoid the tension band. Some belts place this band close to the periphery; some near the center. If the band is close to the periphery, you can make the cuts deeper - but be careful. You can determine the band's location by manually flexing the belt and observing its behavior.
For years I used the red version sold by Rockler on a big Craftsman tablesaw, and found it to be a huge reduction in vibration and noise. Sold that saw when my contractor brother gifted me a used Delta Contractor Saw. Didn’t immediately change the belt even though it was vibrating. It ended up vibrating the motor out of the mounts and slinging that 50# motor about 15’… which as exciting. I have now placed the green Harbor Freight version of the belt on my saw (and repaired the other damage from the motor mishap), and it absolutely hums. Before, if I left items like a tape measure or push sticks sitting on the saw while it was running they’d vibrate off in a few seconds. Now, they don’t move at all. When comparing notes with my brother, we determined the belt that failed was likely the original equipment- about 40 years old! Learned my lesson!
I have found that in non dusty applications where the pullies are of larger diameter they hold up great. Scoring blade on panels saw no. Table saw no. Fan belts on old tractor yes. Mill drill with large diameter pullies on the drives, so far so good... I wish they would recommend pulley diameter on the package, as the belts are expensive. We need to share our experiences so others don't have to learn the hard way. Keep up the educational and entertaining videos.
I love how clean your shop is
I'm glad you posted this and I'm glad I caught it. Observations over time and after some thought are valuable things. Thanks.
You are the perfect balance of awesome and boring. Your videos are perfect to watch before sleep
I was once considering a link belt when I found an inexpensive serpentine (Poly-V) belt + pulley upgrade set for my Craftsman/Ridgid contractor saw.
...nice because it came with 3 pulleys (2 same size, 1 slightly larger) so you could choose three different speeds by how you pair them up.
Bought on eBay for $20 or less.
For other machines I like the toothed style belt that Matthias showed, for their flexibility and grip -- you can run at a lower tension, which probably would make bearings last longer.
I got myself my first link-belt for my small metal lathe yesterday and compared to the old rubber V-belt, I'm very satisfied with the reduced vibrations. I use it so little so I think (hope) it will last many years.
My table saw vibrates and is noisy, but figure out what the problem was, but I was thinking of buying one of those link belts. Glad I saw your video. After hearing the sound examples you play, I just said to my self: "forget the link belt".. Thanks Mr. Matthias Wandel
Thank you for saving me time, money and learning the hard way. Never had a link belt and was just going to buy one today and try it. I'm sticking with the time tested v-belts.
I have a link-belt on my 1961 Craftsman 10" table saw. It has been on for about 4 years and it made a world of difference in eliminating the vibration.
I also have one on my metal working lathe.
These things are good when you got a lathe and you have to disassemble the headstock to get the belt replaced, easier to disassemble the belt. Or when building a machine and not being quite sure of the exact distance the motor will come from the pulley...
Use link belts on all my WW tools. I noticed on my belts you can run them in both directions, one direction causes the links to fail. Maybe that is your problem. One other thing I do, change all my pulleys to high quality turned instead of the out of round cast pulleys that come with many WW tools, even some expensive tools come with cheap pulleys. Makes a huge difference in how smooth the machines run.
PS, Sounds obvious but the link belt runs and works better when turning with the links turning in the proper rotation. I never!!! Had a link belt fail on me.
Thanks for entertaining videos,
Vinny
When I'm not using a tool for a long time, or there is a lot of tension on the pulley, I remove the belt to prevent curvature.
When I setup my benchtop metal lathes I made the motor mounts so that I could remove the belt easy, literally I can remove the belt in two seconds. Very handy.
The Craftsman lathe has a main pulley that can be pulled in and locked... when not using it, you don't even think about it... you pull the lever to the forward position and walk away... When you want to use it you drop the pulley back and turn it on. that was a good design... mine was made in 1961... but I think they were doing it that way in the 1920's as well. Some newer equipment didn't have that kind of thought put into it.
You mean like a on/off (eccentric) countershaft. My Craftsman 109.20630 doesn't have one, but I may make one eventually to get backgear like speeds without using the backgear, as the cast zinc gears will wear out eventually.
I looked at an Atlas 10F that had the vertical eccentric countershaft, seemed like a useful addition.
Andre Gross
The motor pulley is hinged... there is a pull bar that you can pull to relieve tension to switch between high and low pulley settings. It has a metal ring on it... if you lift, pull, and set the ring on the other side of two "fingers"... it keeps the pulley slack. I leave it in that position when not in use... just a habit I've gotten into.
Oh yeah, one of those hinged motor setups for switching pulleys and the weight of the motor sets tension. I have that setup on my T.Taylor lathe, very quick to change speeds.
That was my dad's solution to this problem on his contractor's saw... just lift the motor up and unhook the belt while it's not being used.
I have no idea how I ended up here, or why I watched the whole video. But I like it :D
+TheDrB0B Me too. Been on a binge and I don't know why xD
A Wandel video is always a great place to end up.
I've become addicted to his videos since I posted this comment. Don't miss a vid nowadays :D
Me too. Hahaha!
I heard his voice, then saw his face, and they match so perfectly!!.. ;)
I liked the comparison footage. Well done.
Agreed! Sometimes, less is more. No need to reinvent the wheel.
For people who regularly have periods where their table isn't used, just take 10 seconds and remove the belt :)
I enjoy you showing us your scientific approach. You answered all my belt questions!
My Dad's old Craftsman table saw has a simple solution to the bouncing motor problem. The motor is hinged to allow the blade to be moved as per usual, but it also moves past a plate with an arc cut-out that's mounted to the saw frame. There's a knurled knob that screws into the motor housing through the arc cutout. So when you want to move the saw blade, you loosen the knob, adjust the blade height, then tighten the knob again to fix the motor in place. No bouncy motor!
I've never used link belts and probably won't either after watching this video. Thanks for sharing.
They are really great have them on my table saw and my jointer
Sure, he runs the link belt backwards and didn't dampen the vibrations introduced by his sloppy motor setup..
There is not much more one can do wrong here really.
No wonder he gets crappy results.
I purchased a thin belt like a car would have from ebay for my craftsman saw. I have had it about 10 years. Very little vibration and less noise than a link belt. It came with the new pulleys. I have been well satusfied with this upgrade. Might be worth trying.
I always try to replace my v-belts belts with cogged belts, AX in the case of your saws. The link belt was originally created for the purpose of emergency repairs. They allow a shop to stock a long piece of link belt to replace a broken belt with the intention of replacing the broken belt with the correct v-belt. Problem with link belts is they can cause more pulley wear which leads to more frequent belt replacements. Bottom line, I never use a link belt unless it's temporary.
There are two very similar link belts. Red made in the USA and green made in Italy. The green link belt sheds glue dust and de-laminates and its links break quickly. I have "Power Twist Plus"" v-belts" by Fenner Drives - made in the USA. They are red and I have them on Table saw, lathe and the extra links installed on my drill press. The oldest is 14 years and the newest 10 years, no breakage or noise yet. Colors can easily be changed, read the label.
used a link belt on my general Int drill press and it really reduced the vibration , to me was worth it to get rid of the vibration , been using it for over 5 years, seen alot of use and the belt still look new , never have broken a link. Using it on a table saw where saw dust and debris would get into the links would definitely shorten its life. And make sure their installed going in the right direction
Enjoy your videos. I think you're on the right track when you talk about the "cog" style of v-belt. These are
supposed to perform better on smaller diameter sheaves.
you can use the big springs found in washing machines and attach the to the motor, it prevents the bouncing a lot ^^
also you could make a pully wearing system using a 10-100mw motor, a mini solar panel, and a serie of gears to make the belt turn slowly, to prevent it from taking an oval shape
Your right about the rubber belts taking on the curvature of the pulley if the motor isn't run for a few days. I find the problem is much worse during winter if your shop is not constantly heated and they sit idle in the cold. Before radial tires, the old rubber/nylon tires would flatten on the bottom if the vehicle wasn't moved for a few days in winter and you'd get a thump...thump...thump as you drove down the road for the first two kilometers. The link belts are a solution for this problem but the solution comes at five times the cost. I'm going to try the "gator style" belt, with the ribs on the inside, hoping it might be the best of both worlds.
Machine shops have great expertise in dealing with this issue. Flat belts powered by DC motors remove vibration from the machines as well as tool marks caused by vibrations and AC ripple. Obviously sawdust and chips must not be allowed to get onto the belt at all. Flat belts are a highly perfected drive system.
We have been using Power Twist Plus Link V-Belts in our belt driven HVAC equipment for several years with no noticeable increase in wear on steel or iron sheaves. Installation is a breeze...you simply roll them on. Standard V-belts can be damaged if you do this. We also no longer have to stock multiple belt sizes.
I am not going to mention turning the belt around because too many people have already told you that, but here is something else that you may try that can help some of you is to soak your belts and warm water to soften them up and it seems to help mine quite a bit And is easier to put on as well
I'm not going to read through all the comments to see if others mentioned the improvement that a properly machined and balanced pulley makes. I obtained new ones from transmission supply in Calgary. It's also possible to get a slightly bigger pulley to replace the motor pulley.
I have a serpentine belt on a full size Ridgid table saw and I love it.
Holy shit, that green saw in the background is made of WOOD?! Buddy, you just blew my mind. A+
i use link belts for the drive on my dirt bike and its perfect i also use them in my truck and my power supply witch is a jacks-haft alternator and motor mounted in a frame on the power supply the belt goes over 3 pullies and it runs about 40 hours a week and it still hasn't failed i think link belts do best if you keep tension on them i think the slack is your biggest problem maybe spring load the motor
Hi Matt,
Pretty sure you're right about choosing an ideally sized solid belt, however the link type is smooth and a quick easy fix though as you say, expensive. You might spend that much trying out several belts though. The smoothness of the link type allowed me to leave objects on the saw without them walking around. Your drink doesn't fizz up.
Actually the link types were developed as an emergency fix for automobiles on the road. We used to have two or three belts of different lengths on the older cars. One link belt would do for any of the lengths, and that possibility makes them valuable in the shop today. You don't have to stop what you're doing and drive to town for a belt, just adjust the length of your link spare and continue.
On the contractor saw with the 'gravity' tensioning motor, just snub it with a bungee. Use one long enough so that the springiness is subtle.
de-tensioning the belt when the saw is off, installing some kind of stop for the motor so it eases off the belt when the blade is all the way retracted. adding a spring that pulls down on the motor mount to dampen any bouncing, or if you wanted to go hardcore, rigidly mounting the motor, and using a single serpentine belt with one side of the belt on a tensioner/idler that keeps the belt tensioned with a spring (expert mode: using a constant force spring inside some kind of telescoping arm). i think a serpentine belt has the best combination of qualities you're looking for between a flat belt and a v belt for driving power tools
The issue is with slack. The issue is also with time causing the rubber to malform. My thoughts are that if the setup used a tension rod between the motor and saw blade, there would be a constant pressure which may lessen the effects of the malformed rubber belt.
I know a top notch engineer (he invented "independent suspension" in the 1950')
who was very excited about this type of belt.
I have been considering making the equipment to make my own link belt.
Link belt also helps to determine what link a missing belt needs to be.
Always good data
What an interesting and peculiar video !
I suspect the whine from the link belt is down to the air being driven by the bits of the links that stick out. There are several designs of link belt and some will likely be quieter than others.
As for parking causing a belt to assume a shape, our old lathe (Myford ML7) has a belt tension lever - such that when the lathe is not in use, the belt tension can be released via this lever so allowing the belt to relax around the pulleys rather than be tightly round them.
As for belt tension maintained by a fixed motor, the tensioner needs to be between the motor and the driven shaft - so when the saw blade is lowered, the motor is mechanically moved by the tensioner and not simply by gravity.
I have no interest in this, and I have no reason to be watching this video, but I watched it all and loved it.
I have had very nice results by using a Gates premium notched vbelt on my ole craftsman 1hp tablesaw. I have been able to find this type of belt by takeing the original belt to a good automotive store and asking for a notched vbelt replacement. They are also quite durable . On the ole craftsman, I was able to watch the motor stop bouncing around while in operation. :-)
well you learn something new everyday, i didn't even know link belts existed
Very good editing to show the comparison. I have a green link belt on my old contractor's table saw, but I may visit my local auto parts store and see if they can pull a notched belt for me to try.
It looks to me like your standard rubber belt was an "A" type V-belt. The one you said was more flexible appears to be an "AX" type. It's cogged for greater flexibility. That makes it more suitable for smaller pulleys (less than about 3" dia.), and runs more smoothly.
Can you look into specialty belts? There are just so many different types of rubbers and plastics, not to mention steel belted options available.
make an spring to put between the motor the always have tension, nothing to strong that will hinder adjustment but still has positive tension or even a band type system like rubber bungee thats always pulling the motor down but still can be adjusted as the bungee stretches quite far
keep in mind that as rubber ages it hardens which will give you the rougher ride (at-least in bicycles and automotive)
Always best to stick to manufactures spec I think link belts are best for when you can't slip it over the end it's in the middle of the shaft between bearings
Link belts are excellent for certain uses, but definitely not for everything. I've used them on a large machine where the belts were getting grease and water on them making them break down, and worse it was a four hour job to replace them. The link belts resist oil and water so they wouldn't go bad, and since they would turn at a very low speed they didn't have vibration or noise issues.
Have you actually tried the cog-type belts? They generally last longer because without all the rubber constantly flexing it won't heat up as much, and you shouldn't have the problem of the curvature from them being in a fixed position. Only thing I'm not sure of is if they're louder.
Good information, I have this belt on my table saw ....fingers crossed no issues to come.
I like link belts. I'm still using one I bought at Woodcraft 10 years ago but I've noticed a difference in quality in some of the newer link belts. It seems that the links are thicker (not necessarily good) and the edges are often roughly cut.
Man, I actually used something really useful. Thanks Matthias!
I also tried a link belt on my jointer. I was getting a massive vibration on my DJ-20, and I read that it is the belt, and a common problem for this jointer. I got a link belt for it, pricey, but it sure did remove the vibration issue. Unfortunately, I haven't used it that much, and the belt is getting a lot of wear on the edges, and the belt turns in the pulley when it hits the sections with the wear. I don't think it will last long. I've double checked the direction of the belt, and I followed all the directions, but I think I'm returning my link belt (I'm still within the 30 day return window). If I kept it, I'm sure it would be breaking all the time also.
You could build a system where the distance between the motor and the saw is fixed as you said, and to work around the problem of actually adjusting the saw depth can be done with a system that moves the motor and saw as one piece inside the table
fofov31 That's what more expensive cabinet saws have
Take your v-belt to an auto parts supplier and they can size it up for for the segmented one..but hmmm on the link belt, you put up a good point Matthius, but others below are saying great.
I have had a link belt on my TS for quite a while now. Never broke a link and have spares from leftover length anyway. I saved $ by getting one from Harbor Freight. Experimenting with other belts is also hit or miss. I have not tried machined pulleys. Would love a better TS but not in the budget!
You could maybe add a hook on top of the motor, such that when you do not use the table saw for a while you just lift it up and remove the strain on the belt (maybe easier would just be to unhook the belt). If you want something automatic you could use attach a string at the top of the motor and attach it via a pulley to a counterweight, which for the most part counteracts the weight of the motor, but not so much that the belt starts to slip. I have no idea if any of these ideas are practical and save (when you forget to unhook it for example) but it might be worth experimenting.
you could have a fixed motor and a third pulley with some spring for the tension and a mechanism that release the tension when you are not using it. All the vibration would be on the spring, the movement of the blade would also just pull more on the spring and i'm sure that you can figure a fast and easy tension release system
at 4:00 I was thinking you could put a long spring on the other side of the motor because it would keep the motor pulled down a bit to stop it from vibrating but it would also allow you to adjust the blade up and down.
There is a spring. But a spring doesn't stop the motor from moving up and down.
What about suspending some sort of weight from the motor to act as a dampener? It be overcomplicated and would likely put more stress on the belt, but that might help reduce the motor vibration.
my father attached a bungee connecting the base to the other side of the engine and it prevents any vibration
hope it will do the same to you
Couldn't you fix the motor in place and have a third, spring-tensioned pulley for tensioning the belt?
I cured the vibration on my old craftsman saw by installing isolation mounts on the motor. Runs very smooth now.
I have a link belt on my lathe, and I swear by it. I find they are much stronger than traditional rubber belts.
Perhaps since the motor on the lathe is rigidly mounted, it cuts down on the vibration.
The problem with using ideal springs or bungee cords (not an ideal spring constant) is that they vary greatly depending on length, diameter, material, number of stands (bungee), etc. A Harbor Freight link belt is probably going to be about the same variability for a given run of a design. The other methods you would have more variable results. Also additional tension on the motor might cause more "set" in a standard belt during extended periods of downtime, whether by a spring, bungee cord, or counterweight.
I'm amazed the link belt worked well at all! I would have thought it would pump loads of first and second order vibrations thought the stiff saw and made loads of fuss...
Thanks Mathias, that is an experiment I have been meaning to do. This saved me a lot of time! Good video
This might be what those are, but a 'fractional horsepower belt' might help. They are covered in a fabric, and generally much more bendy.
Very good report. Makes perfect sense so I will use cog belts in the future.
My question would be; why are you worried about noise from the belt when you only turn the saw on to cut lumber which is much louder than the belt?
oceannavagator because when the saw is not cutting, the belt is the loudest part.
Matthias Wandel Interesting, I never turn my saw on for entertainment, If it's running, it's cutting. I haven't noticed any offensive noise from my Powermatic but it does have a wide pulley grooved belt. Most of the noise comes from the blade spinning in the air.
+oceannavagator
Because the sound it was making was not normal, thus it was indicating a problem somewhere. This can cause unnecessary wear and tear on a machine helping to shorten it's life. A smoothly running saw is a safer saw.
I get a huge vibration on my jointer when I power it off. I've read this shortens the life of the bearings.
Link belts are only for temporary maintenance applications. Another lengthy debate on this just subsided on the Yahoo! Atlas Lathe Group. Its a recurrent subject because the entire Atlas lathe spindle has to be disassembled whenever replacing the v-belt. Therefore some Atlas owners favor link belts. Outside of such applications I can't imagine why anyone would want to use far more costly link belts. For instance, on a drill press as I see in another vid alongside this vid. You can buy four or five regular v-belts for the price of one link belt. The only other thing in favor of the link belt is it will replace an infinite range of shorter v-belts.
If you can find the correct size of toothed belt for your TS, it would be interesting to hear your conclusions. Of course direct drive solves the problems you mention here but brings in a whole new set of concerns. Thanks for sharing.
Wow. I never would've expected that.
At a round 3:00 minutes where you're looking at the "oval" shaped belt. It's the obvious overtightening of belt that does it most likely. Unless machine is in very little use. But don't use link-belts unless you're into changing pulleys and bearings sooner. Link-belts are for short duration fixing method. I'm very surprised to see so many people commenting on using them.
Fixing vibration with link type belt is most definitely a wrong way to go. Ask any maintenance people you come a cross.
I considered upgrading my old Table Saw with better pulleys and link belt but decided to sell off the saw and upgrade to a new ski saw worm drive technology contractor saw. Amazing little saw for the money and it is portable !
Solving problems I had never even thought of, great video as always.
During my apprenticeship I learned that linked belts are just emergency fixes that should only be used when you really need a machine and don't have a suitable belt.
The surface area of those linked belts that is put under tension is much smaller and the movement of the belt on those lose links causes a lot of wear.
I you want your tool to run properly use a v-belt and turn it on at least once a week and if you go on vacations take out the belt :)
So linked belts are great but not suitable for a permanent setup :)
In case you want to reduce vibrations any further you could switch to a flat belt (which will need to be a lot wider) or a wider and flatter v-belt.
I have no idea how anybody could believe this was a good idea in the first place :|
Exactly right. It's absolutely wrong way to try to fix vibrations with link belts. It's necessary indeed to change pulleys, belt type, motor fixing etc. to fix issue. Surprisingly few people seems to understand this.
I have a 12" Logan lathe. to change the drive belt to the headstock, you have to disassemble the spindle. I will use a link belt. The manufacturers tout them as suitable for permanent replacement. Naturally. Of course, this lathe is just for hobby use and won't see continuous duty.
The manufacturers will tell you anything you want to hear about their product ;)
They want their products sold after all :D
I'm not familiar with this kind of lathe :|
I know Weiler, Deckel, Spinner, Okuma and Myford :)
I wouldn't recommend it anyway. Especially it you want to do any thread cutting or press fitting with it :)
I have a lathe for my hobbies as well and it runs on a v-belt as well I just built a release mechanism to change the spindle speed :)
Logan actuator company built fine metal lathes for some 50 years. I think the size of the sheaves on the headstock will allow enough surface contact to drive well. I really don't want to disassemble the headstock. I worked for a machine shop that had a small Jet lathe that was driven with a link belt and could do anything it was needed for. Of course, for any heavy work there were larger machines available. I am setting the Logan up with a 3/4 HP permanent magnet motor and a variable speed drive.
mikkosha For sure, manufacturers want you to believe their product is the one to buy. As a rule though, industrial suppliers don't recommend their product for applications for which they are unsuitable. That gets them a bad reputation. There are bound to be drawbacks but I believe the link belt will serve my purposes. For high torque applications, I have back gears. I can always go the trouble of installing a standard V belt if there are real issues.
I guess it's really a matter of the application. I have a 3 hp cabinet saw and it was excessively loud and vibrating so much it would rattle a 16oz hammer off the top. Switching belts to compare performance like you did would be a major hassle because with the yoke style trunnion access to the top pulley is really difficult. You literally have to take the table off to install new belts then realign the miter slots, shim it level etc etc. I took a chance on link belts and at least on my three belt drive system they are great. the belt tension can backed way off without slipping and this puts less pressure on the bearings. A saw I thought I'd have to replace is looking pretty good to me again.
I have been using these red link belts for decades. While they are much more expensive I have had much better service, from these linked belts. Come to think of it, I have never had a linked belt fail. I am using these linked belts on two 100 plus year old drill presses for the primary drive to the lower cone pulleys. I also have linked belts on a big two stage Ingersoll compressor, a lathe primary drive, polishers, grinders, and two band saws.. I would recommend these belts, if I were asked.
To control table saw bounce, I have used a hydraulic life cylinder similar to those on hatches and engine covers. NAPA have the catalogues with the specifications. Go lighter strength. Mounting is simple.
There are few approaches here.. I used power twist belts for years...there are few applications where original V-belt is just simply better than twist belt. 1st make sure that both pulleys are fitting fort this type of belts, if they ride too high or bottom out, they will not work. There is also difference by brand names.. Some of them are very stiff and some other are more elastic... The biggest challenge with your project is that twist lock belts require very large amount of tension, only then theu become effective as regular V-belt...for applications where motor is creating tension just by pure gravity the success is low.. stick to regular V-belt... if your wallet can let go few more $$$ look up v-belts that are kevlar reinforced... they stay longer in original *round* shape... Hope this little info helps...
noise from a v belt comes much from friction btw the belt and the pulley as it enters and leaves it (not to mention slippage or rubbing the bottom of the pulley if mismatched), most cheap belts have an "incorporated" bump in the belt joint so they jump and vibrate a lot. generally the belt/pulley sizes are somewhat on the extreme side of the charts for these machines in order not to lose cutting capacity in the blade. i`ve converted my saw long ago to multi"v" belt and roller tensioners, no whine, no vibration but needs a lot of planning and precise assembly. my 2c. pete. ps cutting notches in the inside of some belts will only weaken them be careful
Link belts are great as a temporary fix to hold you over for a while until you can get a proper sized belt. Look into getting yourself AX or BX belts. They're the cogged type that shouldn't have much of a problem with deforming.
I like link belts but haven't tried them on my TS. In tools where replacing the belt would require disassembly (esp. older lathes) they are a godsend.
There are also different grades of v-belts too - my dad tried the canadian tire belts on a snow blower a long time ago - they failed after a few hours use. Then he discovered there's different grades of belts for different applications. Might want to look into that. Some saws do have the motor fixed mounted in relation to the blade as well. I have a General 350 that uses 2 very short (and very beefy) v-belts between the motor and the blade hub. The whole motor mount moves with the blade, and the tension is adjusted separately. Less vibrations that way! What HP is the motor on your saw? The General I have is 3HP. I'd expect a bigger saw would have to have the motor fixed mounted, but I'm surprised your Delta doesn't actually!
A Gates green stripe belt works great, but all belts are like tires, they will go bad just sitting there, so buy a fresh one, and that's hard to beat. A napa premium belt is actually made by gates, and is the equivalent of a green stripe.
Thanks to the info. I was going to get a link belt for my saw when the old one wore out now I think I just get another rubber v belt.
Thanks Mathias,
Roland