Robert Duvall was right to want to be paid like his peers, he’s a fine actor & it’s too bad they didn’t honor his wishes , coz part three could have really benefitted if Tom was still in
You're not kidding. I have heard that part of duvall's rationale for focusing on the money aspect of it was that he viewed the idea of a third movie as an obvious cash grab and he wanted his piece. Makes sense
Duvall had arguably become a bigger Hollywood name than Pacino by 1990. Pacino largely disappeared from the big screen after Scarface in 1983 while Duvall was in a lot of big-ticket movies (True Confessions, Tender Mercies, Colors, Handmaids Tale, etc.) and won a Best Actor Oscar in the 80s. He had earned the right to ask for a lot of money by then.
I think Tom could kill Mike but it would purely if he was cornered. Like a self defense kinda move . As far as planning and the heart to do it it would be no contest. Toms heart would get in the way most likely causing him to delay or miss something crucial. As soon as Mike makes up his mind that Tom has to go no emotions would get in the way. Mike is ruthless and unfeeling when he needs to be it is why he would win. The best Mike could hope for is if he somehow underestimate Tom and make a mistake but that seems very doubtful with his character
I never thought Micheal liked Tom. Sonny loved Tom like a brother, there was a strong bond between them. I think Micheal might have killed Tom. How could he justify killing Fredo then letting Tom off the hook. Or maybe not as killing another brother might be too much.
The way Tom is portrayed in the books and the movies is that he is loyal to Corleone family. They saved his life, adopted him and was treated as a member of the family. He would never betray or turn against the Corleone family. Of course this is fiction and writers can do anything and botch things up like the Game of Thrones.
It's too close to call, but I think Tom's strongest advantage was that no one viewed him as a threat. Tom was respected by everyone in the Corleone family, he was even respected by the families enemies. Everyone knew Tom as the logical thinking who preferred to make a deal over violence. Both allies and enemies were more trusting of Tom because of this than they were of Michael and Tom could've used that to his advantage to learn the people around him true motives
Tom passed the bar exam. Tom survived a year on the street as an unsupervised minor. Tom worked under Vito FOR YEARS while Michael was in school then the military then got sent to Italy. Tom was the man.
Thanks You sa mucho for they videos! J learn a Lot. Pienso que Mike también traisono a todos. Por ambición personal. Tanto talento, pero a qué.. Creo también que Tom era La roca más sólido. Gracias!
GF3 would have been... mindblowing.. heartbreaking.. with Tom vs Michael. I couldn't imagine a scenario where Hagen would turn on the family though unless Michael totally went batshit paranoid and tried to whack Tom
"It was an abortion, Michael." When Kay went to the clinic, they were run by the Mafia at the time, so it's highly likely Tom would have known about it, maybe even facilitated it. They both lived in the same place, did they not? Nothing of this sort would have escaped an active don's knowledge, as he had eyes and ears everywhere. And that active don was Tom Hagen.
@@ernestolombardo5811 I always wondered about Tom knowing about the abortion. It’s not like patient-doctor privilege was respected for women back then, especially a married woman, least of all a Don’s wife. Imagine the risk that doctor took. It couldn’t have been easy for her to plan. However, I think much like Michael, Tom probably didn’t think she would be capable of it.
@@jac1111 Patient-doctor privilege? For women? Hahahahaha! At the time a woman didn't even have the right to know her own diagnosis. If either party in a marriage was excluded from a woman's medical diagnosis, it was the woman. The doctor told the woman's husband, and it was up to him to decide when (or IF) to inform her. It's portrayed in The Green Mile (Warden cries "How do I tell my wife she's going to die?") and Mad Men. (can't remember the episode. But the woman is seated on the exam table, while the Dr and husband discuss the diagnosis off to the side. The husband was being kind to even allow her to be in the room and overhear the doctor speak to the husband about her diagnosis. He could've sent her out to the waiting room while the doctor revealed and discussed her diagnosis. If calling to give results over the phone, they didn't even bother calling the woman. They told the husband first. So yeah, there was no such thing as doctor-patient privilege for women at the time.
@@SaguaroBlossom Maybe you should read what I wrote again: “It's not like patient-doctor privilege was respected for women back then, especially a married woman, least of all a Don's wife.” So you basically said what I said with more words.
After Woltz finds the horse head in his bed and the screaming fades away, the scene cuts to Don Vito and the look on his face is awesome. He's like WTF Tom?
I give Michael the edge, because on several occasions Tom was more diplomatic in mob disputes, and Michael while being as intelligent, was more ruthless. Remember when Tom says to Michael "what are you gonna do, wipe out everybody?" That scene showed me the difference between the two
It's Michael's story. I imagine he would lose pieces of his soul and heart to win, like he has always done. He would win the battle, but the cost would be tremendously tragic, as is the narrative of Godfather saga. I mean, they could just give Haggen the win out of left field for kicks, but it would extremely underwhelming from a poetic point of view, or at the very least, mine.
@Raylan Givens WOW, That would be a really good story, Imagine something happen to Michael a tragic event that cause some depression he realize every time he won, he also lost a part of his family and a piece of his soul. this time he tries to save Tom, but Tom in the other hand think Michael never be a good don like Vito because he destroyed the whole family, Tom saw how Vito built this family and saw how Michael almost destroyed this family like a dictator for his own interest, he had not only forgotten of the reason of power which Vito wanted for his family but that power turned against that reason. Tom knew what he want.
Tom would have won.. He knew every thing about every one. He had more details, than anyone. Michael was not as Deep, and through.. Tom knew things about people, Michael did not know about. He knew how to execute the order and to do it very carefully, and planning it perfectly and was not careless as Michael. Michael was careless twice as shown in the movie . One killing Carlo on home property big mistake by Michael. Carlo should have been wacked.. The way Paulie was in a remote place. The death of Fredo could have been better hands with Tom, by leaving fredo on a remote island somewhere. Tom knew that to. Michael did inherit one thing from brother Sonny “his temper.! “ michael clearly showed it ! Michael judgement was clouded. Which was clearly shown in the movie., Tom never had to show it. Tom new how to keep order, and keep calm, For him taking out Michael Tom would not regret it. Michael would regret it !! Tom was absolutely amazing person with terrific observational skills, Like Vito Coreleone..,Tom never had nothing to fear from Michael.. Tom learned from the best Vito Coreleone. Michael had more to fear than Tom. In the end It was written in a biography, Tom was the real Don. Michael was a pawn or decoy. Kind of like in Star Wars movie queen amidala was the decoy and Padme was the real one Michael was cunning and ruthless but also careless. Vito says it to Michael in the movie.” Women and children can be careless ! “. Men can not be. Tom never showed it in the entire saga. Which means Tom Was the most instrumental & the most important person, that’ is why Vito Coreleone took him every where. Tom would learn things more extensively. Michael knew before he died and was revealed Tom would have can be more deceptive than Michael. You have to remember Tom was not only a lawyer for the family, he knew about the other capo regimes. Vito reveals it by saying it (Vito ) I knew this would not escape Tom”s eye “
Remember, Michael was a WW 2 war hero. He actually got his hands dirty. I always felt when he killed the Turk AND the police captain, this was not the first time he killed. He just did it for his country and not his FAMILY. Just my opinion.
Yes, but I guess that to kill in war, on a battlefield, is still different than have a dinner in a restaurant and all at sudden to kill them that way and I don't mean about law
@@andreapacelli6448 You are correct BUT the battlefield is a mindset and perspective. When Michael said he volunteered in joining the U S military, Sonny was upset. It seemed Michael bought into the American dream. He married a non Italian and Supposedly wanted to legitimize the family business.
Its very different. Its adrenaline that makes you do things in war, you kill for your own survival. You shoot someone who is trying to shoot you. You don’t know their names, who they are, you don’t speak to them(unless you capture them) so your mindset is very different. Here, however, they were eating dinner, they speak to each other and Mike has to pull a gun and kill them. Its a coldblooded murder
Tom was extremely intelligent , thought provoking, tactful and patient.he even understood the law and sat beside vito in his everyday affairs but he didnt have that same ruthless aggression as sonny or Michael. He reluctantly accepted the don role when michael asked him to take over. Michael wins but he suffers greatly in the end. From a legal,political and business view tom could do serious damage to michaels empire, but he was no gangster
A few years ago in a book store, I flipped through one of the Godfather spin-off novels. In it, Tom Hagen is killed by being drowned by his car...by who, I never found out. Note that in Godfather III, Tom dies from being underpaid.
Tom was killed by a character introduced in the sequel novels but doesn’t appear in the movies. This character was the successor to Tessio, a guy named Fausto “Nick” Gerace.
Not canon he died sometime in the 1970s of natural causes per the Godfather Wiki. The Godfather Returns and Godfather's Revenge sucked, there's a reason Mario Puzo and Paramount refused to have that POSs made into a movie. I would however like to see The Family Corleone as a movie.
There are several accounts of Tom's death, including suicide. The saga was the tragedy of Michael. On one hand, it would have been amazing to see Robert Duvall reprise the roll. On the other hand, like any family , sometimes people just die. Not theatrically or operatically, they just die. The story of Michael is that of loss. He loses everything, including himself. It says that wealth and power is meaningless without love.
I have the theory that the four sons of Vito represent the four humours: Sonny: choleric Fredo: sanguinic Tom: phlegmatic Michael: melancholic In terms of brutality: It was Tom who planned the murder of the prostitute.
Tom is an amazing #2. The best way to put it if you use a sport comparison, he's like Scottie Pippen. Does everything for you, is the perfect Ying to your yang but as a sole leader, he's just not quite up there with Michael. Everyone needs a scottie, how Shaq needed Kobe or how Kobe needed Pau.
Man your Kobe reference almost brought me to tears. I forget for small periods of time now he’s not here and when I remember again it’s ass. On another note , great comparison!!
@OneOone Lion That is an accurate way to put it . It is like the past few years of the Georgia Bulldogs compared to the Alabama Crimson Tide . A sportswriter ranked the Bulldogs said that they were very good but not great . Such is life . You can do it any field or walk of life . Stephen King to Dean Koontz . Anyway a quote from a play from the late , great Sam Sheppard , “ It is like a game of pool . All the talent , practice , and technique in the world can’t beat you because you’ve got magic “. I would say that was true of Michael Corleone
@brobbus0 You're 100% correct, IMO. I always imagined Tom suspected/knew the real deal with Fredo and would at a minimum be very conflicted about that if not just out and out disapprove. (Connie plays a similar role in III, she clearly suspects/knows, but being Connie she closes her eyes, doesn't look too closely and goes along with Michael's lie. Tom probably also would, but I suspect he'd have the strength to break away and distance himself if he so desired.) So Hagen retiring early and distancing himself makes perfect sense. And that is an interesting story and emotional entanglement/dilemma to bring to the lawyer who is helping Michael 'wash himself of his sins.' I'm not sure Tom would feel he wanted to help Michael achieve that. Which is a great wrinkle. George Hamilton's character is just a cardboard cut out that brings nothing more than legal expertise. Honestly, with such a nothing role they probably made a mistake casting a known actor. If John Q. Unknown played that role at least we could maybe ignore Hagen's absence a little more easily.
@brobbus0 There could still be a Godfather Part 4. Coda, The Death of Michael Corleone is the new Godfather Part III. Watch that if you haven't already seen it & you'll know what I mean.
GF III was doomed, with Duval or without Duval. The one that should not have been there was Al Pacino. The movie needed Michael Corleone to be there, but Pacino did not allow it. After Serpico, Pacino decided to be like Humphrey Bogart in all future movies, and never let the personage to appear, Pacino always playing Pacino.
@@transcendentpoet9254 its been over 20 years since part three and a lot of the actors are old or dead. Also, Michael Corleone died in GF3 alr smh, nobody wants to see vince or whatever his name is.
An amazing video. A leader must know when its time for peace and for war. I think Michael had a better understanding for how to act in war time than Tom did. I also think that Tom knew how to deal with peace time better than Michael. However, I think that Michael knew more about how to deal with peace time than Tom knew how to deal with War time. I declare Michael the winner!!
The history of Frank Lucas proves that you underestimate a leaders assistant at your own peril. Even so, Hagen was “cut out” of the rough stuff because his talents lay elsewhere. Hagans loyalty was beyond question- he could rebel only were he to see Michael as an enemy of the Corleone family.
That was true but remember we're speaking about Tom need to know basis 🤔 hit this conversation once I believe with someone called rooster but my memory isn't what it used to be??? Oh I don't even remember my passwords 🤣
Tom's ability to make deals and his knowledge of Michael's thinking processes would lead him to do two things, almost immediately: (1) Arrange for the death of Nieri, Michael's arch assassin, and (2) secure the permission of the heads of the other families to have Michael killed. Tom would get to them before Michael because Tom would make the deal that Michael can't: he would agree to keep the Corleone family in "the business," which means he would continue to use the Corleone holdings in Vegas to launder Mob money. I will always remember that Tom, like Sonny, wanted to make the deal to go into the drug racket with Solozzo. Michael's decision to kill Moe Greene and his obsession with going legit are what put him in Hyman Roth's crosshairs, which led in turn to the disastrous state of affairs when Pantegeli near turned state's evidence and bringing down the entire family. Then, there was that little comedy in Tahoe when Michael accused Tom of trying to bail on the Corleone family by taking the big casino job in Vegas. Further, no matter how angry Tom might have been at Fredo for what he did, I am certain that Michael's order to execute Fredo did not sit well with Tom. Killing their mother's son would be the final indication to Tom that Michael is capable of anything. Tom would know that he has to be just as ruthless if wants any chance of surviving a head to head with Michael, and that would be all the motive he'd need to strike first.
Very well thought-out thesis, but despite his astute intelligence and strategic acumen, Tom falls far short compared to Michael's absolute tactical ruthlessness. Michael would prevail for that very reason alone.
Robert Duvall had a big enough role to warrant a fair salary. Always wondered why he wasn’t in the third trilogy. I remember seeing him in “To Kill A Mockingbird”. He was very good in that movie. Also has a long list of excellent choices of film history..
The way Tom would deal with him is to set a series of events into motion, using Michael's own shortcomings against him, similar to how Sonny died. He would keep Michael's blood off of his own hands at all cost and no one would ever even suspect he was involved. 14:13 Hmm, I never noticed the two sets of twins in the movie before.
Vito instructed to make Jack Wolz an offer he couldn't refuse. Tom identified the weakness in horses. Has Tom been underestimated on some of those criteria?
One big advantage Tom would have had I think was he was around Vito from the start in regards to him building the empire. Whereas Mike wanted nothing to do with the family business at the beginning at least.
I'm picking Tom Hagen. On top of being more respected, he would have learned Michael's thought process after being his consigliere for decades. Plus being with Vito from the beginning of the 5 families is definitely an advantage.
Your analysis is awesome! TY “you’re not a war time consigliere Tom” (paraphrased ) is all that needs to be said! Michaels hands down “and twice on Sunday”. Ruthlessness is a big difference between people and Michael has it in spades
I think that you've overestimated Tom's abilities and influence, but most importantly his level of confidence. As much as he was well-thought of and respected, that he was not Sicilian would always be held against him both within and without the Corleone cosche. Tom was also well-aware of this and never really showed and disloyalty, even when opposing his dons. I think the reason that the storyline was not pursued was because it was both implausible and that Michael would discover and snuff out any such betrayals after Fredo without hesitation.
@@slickchick5811 Lol you need to think about the time in which Godfather is set in & the origins of the mob. Being a non-Italian alone put him at a disadvantage for making any big moves in that regard.
Robert Duvall has proven over the years to be a great actor with a legacy. I can see not as much as Al Pacino but he deserved to be closer in the ball park to his wishes. 3 wasn’t the same without Tom.
It's interesting how much Connie changed throughout the movie franchise. In part three Michael said to her, "Maybe they should fear you." Connie poisoned her own godfather, justifiably though. Before Vincent took over as Don, Connie ran the Family as if she were Vito's true heir. Another character that changed a lot was Mama Coreleone. By the third film she had come into her own, telling Connie that she had to wait like everybody else to see her brother. One thing I noticed in the films is the fact that Fredo never really had a one on one interaction with his mother.
I think that the most likely result would be a win by Michael which destroyed the whole family, but I also think that there would be a chance that Tom would win, he would have allies on allies on allies. He’d basically have an international mob, with the best consigliere you could find, and all the info and ability to read a Corleone one would need
I think Michael would win 🤔 In the godfather movies we all know how smart and dangerous Michael is plus he wouldn't have any problem killing someone that he loves like he did with fredo
Fredo work with Hyman Roth when he said he never heard of him. Just so happened when Fredo caught in a lie, Michael realized Fredo was part of Michael Assassination so therefore, Fredo was marked to die by Roth or Michael. Fredo was a dead man either way. Even if Michael was killed, Fredo would had eventually still been killed. Michael had to get rid of Fredo after what Fredo did.
with intelligence I wouldn't say it is a draw. I would say that Tom Hagens would win, because a part from the other Corleones, he is the only one that went to the University, and finished it with a degree in law.
Micheal was way smarter in life and also streetsmart and booksmart plus he went in the army and fought wich means he had alot of brains and balls where as Tom only was only booksmart Michael would win easily no discussion
Winner - Michael. Tom had diplomacy power because he whelded the Corleone name. Tom would not have the same level of respect or diplomatic strength without the family name.
When Michael said: "You're out Tom" that was strategic and it was a brilliant play to keep Tom outside the new plans to take out the mob families. Besides, Tom and Sonny was ok with drug business, and Vito was not for it. Michael held the family away from drugs and it gave his family more power as his father predicted. My win goes to Michael because he would never cross his father except for taking out his brother who was a traitor that almost had Michael killed.
@@nowrestlingiq7317 Not getting into that... the point here, they were open to it and Both Vito and Michael were not. As you go into Godfather III Michael was not involved with drugs. Not everything up for negotiations, and it almost got Vito killed because of Sunny's big mouth. Prior meetings Tom said they would lose power if they didn't go along with the other families in selling drugs. Vito was 100% not interested. That was wisdom.
@@T-roc57 Fredo didn't give a shit about killing Michael, and I frankly don't understanding why Michael felt guilty about killing his brother when Fredo was totally involved with Hyman Roth to take out Michael. Fredo got with outsiders to topple his own family? Fredo was more evil than what he appeared to be.
It would be an interesting story if any of Hagen's descendants would "marry" a Corleone. And if that any offspring would possess the diplomacy of Tom (of some sort) to any of Don Vito's descendants, he/she could be threatening enough, for both Italian-American and Black American mobster/gangster organization. In some sense, a perfect (?) story for a novel or video game plotline.
Tough call. It would come down to fear and viciousness (Michael) vs experience and respect (Tom). The only way Tom stands a chance is if he recruits someone with strategic prowess and ruthlessness, which is possible because he's more respected overall.
I do not know if it was an error in film making but in the Scene where Tom has to tell Vito about Sonny’s death. Vito says to call Amerigo Bonasera the undertaker. Tom picks up the phone and without looking up the number he dials and gets Amerigo. As I said it could just be a flaw in the filmmaking or it could be an example of how intelligent Tom really is. I like to think that Tom has the respect of all the Italians because he brought a photographic memory to whatever he did. I have no other evidence I just thought it was interesting him not having to look up the number.
I am stunned by the reverence to the godfather theme. Kudos to puzo for writing something where people take pleasure in identifying with vito or Michael! At the end of the day they were criminals who compromised their conscience and managed to convince themselves that they were fair and lived shamelessly as If they were heroes. Wonder how vito would have reacted to meeting a man who had contempt for the life he led without fearing him .. Will vito feel powerless against such a man? Because vito drew power from others weakness.
Very interesting subject indeed and each individual viewer definitely has his own ground of picking the winner. I would picture both Tom and Michael as true warriors. Tom is a classy top contender that possesses all textbook techniques and skills, particularly his footwork, but he also falls short of pulling out the devastating K.O. blow. For Tom to win this championship bout, he must hope for the fight going to distance, and would definitely draw the overall advantages as each round piles up. Otherwise, Michael would have taken him out in early rounds with his crippling fearsome left hooks. Michael just possesses that raw and vicious K.O. punch that is 2 cuts above Tom. Having read the novels and repeatedly watched the movies over the years, my sentimental vote goes to Tom because his character and personality were much more likable. My rational sense however tells me Michael would keep his championship belt safely intact! ps. ~ In reality both Al Pacino and Robert Duvall are outstanding great actors, two supreme champions !! Cheers … 🥃
Michael and Tom were lifelong friends.It would have been quite unbelievable if the Godfather3 would have been about Michael V Tom. Michael was already doing some soul searching having given the order to kill his brother Fredo. Michael would have also questioned his own thoughts when he said previously that Tom was the only person he could trust. I think Francis Ford Coppola did a really good job on Godfather 3 which I enjoyed even though some people thought the movie was just a cash cow.
Bad actors because he hired them out of personal favours. Like we get the premise of the plot etc but goddammit the disparity of the acting skill. Al Pacino carried the mediocre actors HARD
Duvall is such a fantastic actor. He played Stalin so convincingly that some people actually thought Stalin was back from the dead. And he did a fantastic job of acting, writing and directing the apostle and assassination tango.
While the original idea of Godfather 3 is intriguing on a certain academic level, I'm glad it never happened. Tom Haegen is Michael's best friend. A brother through thick and thin. Take it from experience, nothing hurts your soul like fighting your closest friend. No matter how it'd end, no matter who was still alive when the smoke cleared they'd both be dead.
Man…Michael is so ruthless and might have the fear advantage but I believe Tom would win, because he knows Michael so well and could always be a step ahead
Anyone who truly paid attention to the films would realize that Tom was always several steps behind in interpreting the machinations of both Vito and Michael's enemies, which is partially why Michael took care to keep Tom out of the fold until he was absolutely needed. Tom was Michael's consigliere in name only; Michael made moves independent of his counsel and really had no use for Tom's faculties outside of legal matters and reaching out for business deals. Also, thanks to Tom's poor information management skills, Michael lost his edge in his meeting with Senator Geary as his intention to overtake Meyer Klingman was known well in advance. Tom also couldn't hide his plans to relocate to Florida from Michael, as well as him being tapped for deals outside of the Family. And how on earth did Tom not know that Kay was going to an ABORTION CLINIC after a FAILED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT? Was she not driven there with protection?? Did she go on her own??? As for diplomacy, it was Michael's ambition, decisiveness and reputation for 'repaying debts' which kept the wolves at bay. On the other hand, Peacemaker Tom very likely would've taken Tessio up on his offer... This is not to say that Tom couldn't get the drop on Michael if the opportunity presented itself - even Michael said "you can kill anyone" - but in a campaign, Michael has Tom beat in every category you can think of hands down. Sorry. Great video
I'd also point out the in the movies, at least, Tom never successfully negotiated anything. He also assumed Clemenza would be the traitor, not Tessio. It didn't surprise Michael at all.
@@TheBerkeleyBeauty Abortion clinics were very much in existence in the 1940s and 1950s - now whether they were legally operated is a different story. If there were no proper clinics in Nevada at that time then she would've had it conducted in a hospital setting in secret. Wherever she went, she would've needed an escort detail as she was strictly prohibited from vacating the estate by Tom, so the smell of alcohol on her breath or through her pores would've been easily detected by the men (many of whom like to drink themselves) and reported to Tom. As for the hanger, she told Michael that she "had it killed" (very likely by a trained professional)
I have been watching all your videos and eagerly anticipate the next. I watched GF2 recently which was my personal favorite of the trilogy. When you showed the scene with Tom and Micheal where Micheal told Tom he would be the Don, it made me wonder if Tom really was appointed the Don, would he be Don Corleone? Also if Tom was actually in GF3, would he have been Vincenzo's lawyer/consigliere? As far as Tom vs Micheal, I would argue that Tom may win because he was consigliere during both Vito and Micheal's regimes and would have the legal, diplomatic, and even political leverage against Micheal. Tom knew too much to not be a serious threat. The greatest enemy may not necessarily the one sneaking up from behind, but the one in front of you. As Luchese said in GF3, "Finance is a gun, politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
By the way, Tom was my inspiration to go to law school because I want to be a consigliere for my employer. English is not my native language, but I passed LSAT, law school and bar exams. Tom is my idol.
I'm picking Tom over Michael. Michael lets his petty thirst for revenge blind him. Tom for the most part is way more rational. Michael isn't a people person, that's part of the reason why he was betrayed multiple times. Tom is a people person. People trust him. Politicans, judges, mayors, governors, etc. All these men trust him. Tom doesn't need brutality and fear. He has intelligence, respect and diplomacy. He wouldn't need to be a war general. He would most likely have a war general at his disposal. I just think it is better to be respected than feared and Hagen was definitely more respected than Michael ever was. Also without Tom Michael's cunning plan to take out the police captain and the Turk would have had a bad aftermath. In the book they were able to get the word out that the police captain was dirty and they were able to get a fall guy because of Tom's connections with the press and as an attorney. Michael needed Tom more than Tom needed Michael. Tom would beat Michael, simple as that.
I strongly disagree, Michael never let anything but his cold analysis of a situation drive him towards meticulous and drastic plans to handle terrible issues, even when it came to his closest family members he tried and acted without passion. Tom Hagen has diplomacy and all but the respect he has comes from the fear that the family he's been welcomed in inspires to everyone, if they were going to war against each other, I've got no doubt that Tom "Corleone" would become Tom Hagen again. His only strengths are his knowledge about the family business, he can snitch but other thant that, against a cold-blooded mob like Michael, he doesn't get the slightest chance to win in my opinion. Don't get me wrong I love Tom's character and the video is enjoyable but the it could have only been a 2 seconds smirk from Michael, there's absolutely no competition.
being there before Michael, got to say Tom would have had the connections. When Michael brought Frank's brother into the courtroom from the old country, that showed how far reaching he could go. I think Tom had the ear of the old guard from the old country and may have convinced them to side with him if it had got to that.
Made big mistake not paying Duvall the same as others. He earned that respect by his work as Tom Hagen. Look how much more they would have made with him in the sequel..
It's really hard to say but I think it would probably come down to who's the most cunning of all. Both of them have their own advantages in regards to connections. However Michael is someone who doesn't like to lose and so even if it means cheating, Michael would probably win. Tom is more of a lawyer legal strategic guy. But then again, he can also think exactly like a Corleone...so, who knows. It would have been a fabulous rival match.
I noticed in the GFmovies, Michael was slightly disrespectful to Tom (in every scene). It seemed like he didn't regard Tom as true family. Sonny, on the other hand, showed so much love to him. Tom pretty much would argue with Sonny, and he would back down a bit. Michael probably resented Tom...
If Tom betrayed Michael, I don’t think he would want to kill Michael, like Fredo. But in a head-to-head, Tom’s connections and intelligence would be a difficult obstacle to overcome. However, Michael has an almost unnatural ability to get out of sticky situations. That, plus his brutality and his clear compliance with the death of another brother, makes Michael the winner to me. Also, I think Michael would take Tom’s betrayal especially hard since he believed he could trust him wholeheartedly, and he would have even less mercy for him.
I definitely can see Michael barely getting out of this fight while losing so much fighting Tom. While I agree with all of the points this video was made, we must remember that this fight will take place after Fredo was killed by Michael at the end of p2, instantly spawning hesitation and uncertainty within the family, perhaps even chaos due to Fredo's murder Michael is definitely much crueler and is "evil" compared to his father, and I'm 100% sure that the rest of the family members will see that, causing them to side with Tom (who definitely has compassion/diplomacy similar to Vito.). This type of fight will instantly cause a civil war. Would have made an amazing movie 3 compared to what was created.
It would have never worked. Vito Corleone adopted Tom and made him Consigliere precisely because he wasn't Italian. This way he could never become a made man (in those times). Even if he took over he'd have no soldiers.
No soldiers? Lol the mob fell apart because ppl followed personal loyalties and not “follow suit” so no, don’t for one second think the streets would ever be that simple. For one Tom could have money. The way he spreads it around could easily be a big win for him. I could go on
@@Petal4822 You're right. Sonny was emotional and hot headed because of that. I just don't know if Michael was always like that, or if it's something he had to grow into, as triggered by the assassination attempt on his father. And subsequent education he received from the retired Don. Would Michael just continue living a mobless life as a war hero had he not been pulled into the business end of it by necessity? If Fredo was capable of leading the family as the eldest, Michael would have perhaps never become a ruthless mobster? It was clear that Vito never wanted that life for Michael, because he saw the drive and potential Michael had to become something great outside of a life of crime. Perhaps I should read the Mario Puzo's books to see if there is an origin story about Michael.
I agree with your analysis and general conclusion, with the exception of the Intelligence category. Michael was far more intelligent than Hagen. Example in point: In the “it was Barzini all along scene with Don Vito”, Hagen had completely missed the point that Barzini was the mastermind behind the attempts against the Corleone family. That was a grave mistake and a lack of insight.
Also, when Michael turned a "personal" situation into "business" in the first Godfather, Tom looked to be caught off guard as if he wouldn't have ever thought of the idea. It was Michael who defeated his fathers enemies when Tom was considering to cave, I honestly believe the Corleone Family would've eroded with his leadership, however, Tom would've found a way to build something even more powerful but outside of being within the "Mafia" structure because he was a brilliant mind. It would've been his own origination that would be business, power and politically driven but wouldn't operate in the same manner as the mob although it would've had immense influence & ties to the underworld. Similar to how Murder Inc wasn't a part of crime families but moreso third parties.
Even Michael didn’t realized it. It was Vito who first realised that it was Bazzini and advised Michael that whoever will come with proposal of meeting is the traitor.
It would have to take something extraordinary for a war to take place. Even if Tom ended up on his own, he would do what he does best. he would make deals and use his diplomacy to get other outfits on his side, and then negotiate from a position of strength. Michael would be willing to at least listen, but Tom would do all he could to avoid a war. Now, knowing Michael, if he was just intent on taking out Tom, i would see him agreeing to a peace deal, and then just dealing with Tom later. I think if you just compare them as Don's, I think Tom would likely be more successful, as long as peace was maintained. But, if full scale war broke out, Michael will go the extra length to win. But thats a big if.
GF3 would have been another classic if they just would have paid Duvall. Michael vs Tom would have been much more epic and personal than Michael vs the Illuminati.
I think Even though Tom Hagen was not a wartime counselor. That was spoken at the time when Sonny was alive. Tom is the kind of person who learns from his mistakes. So working with the original Don and with Michael he learned how to be a good counselor as well as a good don. I think that in full on head to head warfare. Michael would win. However, with the political contacts and with the context with the other members of the Mafia that Tom had Tom would have a strategic advantage. What I really think would happen is that Michael would realize how loyal Tom has been this whole time, and realized that Tom is actually trying to protect the family. And some sort of agreement would be made.
Michael and Tom are two sides of a coin and Connie being the rim of the coin once she came into her own. Nevertheless when pinned against each other factor fear and brutality will prevail in a crime family.
I could easily watch a spin off movie where Tom overthrones Michael for the sake of Corleone's family; just pointing out the fact that if Tom assumed the role of the family leader, the family wouldnt go apart as the GF3 did. Among those two, Tom was the only one who truly undrstood the meaning of family, Michael lost it all at the end because he couldnt behold and understand this simple aspect.
An awesome breakdown and yes I think that Michael would win but Tom would have made so many moves that Michael would be as we see him in Godfather 3 would be ruined realizing he destroyed his family in the end. Because Tom I feel would have accumulated enough allies that Michael would win his war with Tom only to see that he now had all the rest of the families and mobs across the U.S. coming after him at the same time something he never faced before.
Is there a video discussing what happened during the gap in time between the death of Mary and Mike dying? Did Connie take a bigger role? Did Vincent get out of control and self destruct?
The Godfather part 3 wasn’t even worth watching.Robert Duvall definitely deserved the money not only for being as big if not higher then Pacino at the time.Duvall would have made the movie a better one for sure.Who would win,you can debate all day but the plot would have damn sure been more interesting then what we actually got.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Robert Duvall was right to want to be paid like his peers, he’s a fine actor & it’s too bad they didn’t honor his wishes , coz part three could have really benefitted if Tom was still in
You're not kidding. I have heard that part of duvall's rationale for focusing on the money aspect of it was that he viewed the idea of a third movie as an obvious cash grab and he wanted his piece. Makes sense
I agree.
Yes, III was close to garbage
not much.
Duvall had arguably become a bigger Hollywood name than Pacino by 1990. Pacino largely disappeared from the big screen after Scarface in 1983 while Duvall was in a lot of big-ticket movies (True Confessions, Tender Mercies, Colors, Handmaids Tale, etc.) and won a Best Actor Oscar in the 80s. He had earned the right to ask for a lot of money by then.
Tom is grateful to Vito for his life. He will never leave Corleone family which gave him a lot. Tom is a gift of Vito to Michael, a loyal man.
Actually Sonny brought Tom when they were around 11 yo. Tom is i think 1 year older
@@Filip-db2tn Sonny could not bring him inside family without Vito's permission.
So to speak, a Biblical friendship.
@Tony Soprano If the Corleone family had a Hindu consiglieri, Vito Corleone wouldn't have died...
You're not a wartime consiglieri Tom.
Tom wouldn’t have the heart to kill michael, whereas Michael would very much kill Tom if I came down to it
Yes, this is exactly right.
I think Tom could kill Mike but it would purely if he was cornered. Like a self defense kinda move . As far as planning and the heart to do it it would be no contest. Toms heart would get in the way most likely causing him to delay or miss something crucial. As soon as Mike makes up his mind that Tom has to go no emotions would get in the way. Mike is ruthless and unfeeling when he needs to be it is why he would win. The best Mike could hope for is if he somehow underestimate Tom and make a mistake but that seems very doubtful with his character
That exactly what I am thinking. There is no way Michael will kill another family member regardless of what the situation is.
I never thought Micheal liked Tom.
Sonny loved Tom like a brother, there was a strong bond between them.
I think Micheal might have killed Tom. How could he justify killing Fredo then letting Tom off the hook.
Or maybe not as killing another brother might be too much.
Do you think Fredo would have been killed if Sonny had survived the shooting attack and Micheal had still been made Don by his father.
The way Tom is portrayed in the books and the movies is that he is loyal to Corleone family. They saved his life, adopted him and was treated as a member of the family. He would never betray or turn against the Corleone family. Of course this is fiction and writers can do anything and botch things up like the Game of Thrones.
It's too close to call, but I think Tom's strongest advantage was that no one viewed him as a threat. Tom was respected by everyone in the Corleone family, he was even respected by the families enemies. Everyone knew Tom as the logical thinking who preferred to make a deal over violence. Both allies and enemies were more trusting of Tom because of this than they were of Michael and Tom could've used that to his advantage to learn the people around him true motives
Tom was Spock to Sonny as Kirk. Unfortunately Sonny was caught by his human temper.
Sonny was all emotions (anger, mainly), Michael, both, and Tom was all mind. And Fredo was Fredo...
Michael would have to win given he is the main character and there is no more story without him.
“The Irish Gang" was an insult to the Corleones but a compliment to Tom.
God father 3 was never the same as the other two films without Tom and Clemnza
Clemenza wasnt in II
Tom passed the bar exam. Tom survived a year on the street as an unsupervised minor. Tom worked under Vito FOR YEARS while Michael was in school then the military then got sent to Italy. Tom was the man.
Thanks You sa mucho for they videos! J learn a Lot.
Pienso que Mike también traisono a todos. Por ambición personal.
Tanto talento, pero a qué..
Creo también que Tom era
La roca más sólido. Gracias!
GF3 would have been... mindblowing.. heartbreaking.. with Tom vs Michael. I couldn't imagine a scenario where Hagen would turn on the family though unless Michael totally went batshit paranoid and tried to whack Tom
"It was an abortion, Michael."
When Kay went to the clinic, they were run by the Mafia at the time, so it's highly likely Tom would have known about it, maybe even facilitated it.
They both lived in the same place, did they not? Nothing of this sort would have escaped an active don's knowledge, as he had eyes and ears everywhere. And that active don was Tom Hagen.
@@ernestolombardo5811 I always wondered about Tom knowing about the abortion. It’s not like patient-doctor privilege was respected for women back then, especially a married woman, least of all a Don’s wife. Imagine the risk that doctor took. It couldn’t have been easy for her to plan. However, I think much like Michael, Tom probably didn’t think she would be capable of it.
@@jac1111 Patient-doctor privilege? For women? Hahahahaha! At the time a woman didn't even have the right to know her own diagnosis. If either party in a marriage was excluded from a woman's medical diagnosis, it was the woman. The doctor told the woman's husband, and it was up to him to decide when (or IF) to inform her. It's portrayed in The Green Mile (Warden cries "How do I tell my wife she's going to die?") and Mad Men. (can't remember the episode. But the woman is seated on the exam table, while the Dr and husband discuss the diagnosis off to the side. The husband was being kind to even allow her to be in the room and overhear the doctor speak to the husband about her diagnosis. He could've sent her out to the waiting room while the doctor revealed and discussed her diagnosis. If calling to give results over the phone, they didn't even bother calling the woman. They told the husband first. So yeah, there was no such thing as doctor-patient privilege for women at the time.
@@SaguaroBlossom Maybe you should read what I wrote again: “It's not like patient-doctor privilege was respected for women back then, especially a married woman, least of all a Don's wife.” So you basically said what I said with more words.
It was between Tom & Kay although finally in the it was Kay’s dicision.
After Woltz finds the horse head in his bed and the screaming fades away, the scene cuts to Don Vito and the look on his face is awesome. He's like WTF Tom?
I give Michael the edge, because on several occasions Tom was more diplomatic in mob disputes, and Michael while being as intelligent, was more ruthless. Remember when Tom says to Michael "what are you gonna do, wipe out everybody?" That scene showed me the difference between the two
“ not everybody, just my enemies “
It's Michael's story. I imagine he would lose pieces of his soul and heart to win, like he has always done. He would win the battle, but the cost would be tremendously tragic, as is the narrative of Godfather saga. I mean, they could just give Haggen the win out of left field for kicks, but it would extremely underwhelming from a poetic point of view, or at the very least, mine.
@Raylan Givens WOW, That would be a really good story, Imagine something happen to Michael a tragic event that cause some depression he realize every time he won, he also lost a part of his family and a piece of his soul. this time he tries to save Tom, but Tom in the other hand think Michael never be a good don like Vito because he destroyed the whole family, Tom saw how Vito built this family and saw how Michael almost destroyed this family like a dictator for his own interest, he had not only forgotten of the reason of power which Vito wanted for his family but that power turned against that reason. Tom knew what he want.
I can see Michael winning in a head-to-head, but Tom has the smarts and connections to make it a Pyrrhic victory for Michael.
The end of Godfather II had already been the epitome of Pyrrhic.
Tom could make better deals to get support from the other families. Hes old school
I found Michael more smarter than Tom.
Tom’s understanding of the law alone makes his intelligence higher than Michael’s if we’re being honest here
Tom would have won.. He knew every thing about every one. He had more details, than anyone. Michael was not as Deep, and through.. Tom knew things about people, Michael did not know about. He knew how to execute the order and to do it very carefully, and planning it perfectly and was not careless as Michael. Michael was careless twice as shown in the movie
.
One killing Carlo on home property big mistake by Michael. Carlo should have been wacked.. The way Paulie was in a remote place.
The death of Fredo could have been better hands with Tom, by leaving fredo on a remote island somewhere.
Tom knew that to. Michael did inherit one thing from brother Sonny “his temper.! “ michael clearly showed it !
Michael judgement was clouded. Which was clearly shown in the movie., Tom never had to show it. Tom new how to keep order, and keep calm, For him taking out Michael
Tom would not regret it.
Michael would regret it !!
Tom was absolutely amazing person with terrific observational skills, Like Vito Coreleone..,Tom never had nothing to fear from Michael.. Tom learned from the best Vito Coreleone.
Michael had more to fear than Tom. In the end It was written in a biography, Tom was the real Don. Michael was a pawn or decoy. Kind of like in Star Wars movie queen amidala was the decoy and Padme was the real one
Michael was cunning and ruthless but also careless. Vito says it to Michael in the movie.” Women and children can be careless ! “. Men can not be. Tom never showed it in the entire saga. Which means Tom Was the most instrumental & the most important person, that’ is why Vito Coreleone took him every where. Tom would learn things more extensively. Michael knew before he died and was revealed Tom would have can be more deceptive than Michael. You have to remember Tom was not only a lawyer for the family, he knew about the other capo regimes. Vito reveals it by saying it (Vito ) I knew this would not escape Tom”s eye “
Remember, Michael was a WW 2 war hero. He actually got his hands dirty. I always felt when he killed the Turk AND the police captain, this was not the first time he killed. He just did it for his country and not his FAMILY. Just my opinion.
Both
A German Irish can be a deadly combination. But the circumstances would have to change of course.
Yes, but I guess that to kill in war, on a battlefield, is still different than have a dinner in a restaurant and all at sudden to kill them that way and I don't mean about law
@@andreapacelli6448
You are correct BUT the battlefield is a mindset and perspective. When Michael said he volunteered in joining the U S military, Sonny was upset. It seemed Michael bought into the American dream. He married a non Italian and Supposedly wanted to legitimize the family business.
Its very different. Its adrenaline that makes you do things in war, you kill for your own survival. You shoot someone who is trying to shoot you. You don’t know their names, who they are, you don’t speak to them(unless you capture them) so your mindset is very different. Here, however, they were eating dinner, they speak to each other and Mike has to pull a gun and kill them. Its a coldblooded murder
Tom was extremely intelligent , thought provoking, tactful and patient.he even understood the law and sat beside vito in his everyday affairs but he didnt have that same ruthless aggression as sonny or Michael. He reluctantly accepted the don role when michael asked him to take over. Michael wins but he suffers greatly in the end. From a legal,political and business view tom could do serious damage to michaels empire, but he was no gangster
Duvall is one of the best actor ever
FACTS 💯
@@TheCultureMafia so underrated
Frank Vincent just as much
@@forzajuve4845 Robert Duvall is one of the BEST ACTOR EVER !
@@matrixisreal2023 yup ..so is Frank Vincent
A few years ago in a book store, I flipped through one of the Godfather spin-off novels. In it, Tom Hagen is killed by being drowned by his car...by who, I never found out. Note that in Godfather III, Tom dies from being underpaid.
I think it was Pauly Shore
Lol underpaid
Tom was killed by a character introduced in the sequel novels but doesn’t appear in the movies. This character was the successor to Tessio, a guy named Fausto “Nick” Gerace.
Not canon he died sometime in the 1970s of natural causes per the Godfather Wiki. The Godfather Returns and Godfather's Revenge sucked, there's a reason Mario Puzo and Paramount refused to have that POSs made into a movie. I would however like to see The Family Corleone as a movie.
There are several accounts of Tom's death, including suicide. The saga was the tragedy of Michael. On one hand, it would have been amazing to see Robert Duvall reprise the roll. On the other hand, like any family , sometimes people just die. Not theatrically or operatically, they just die.
The story of Michael is that of loss. He loses everything, including himself. It says that wealth and power is meaningless without love.
I have the theory that the four sons of Vito represent the four humours:
Sonny: choleric
Fredo: sanguinic
Tom: phlegmatic
Michael: melancholic
In terms of brutality: It was Tom who planned the murder of the prostitute.
I never knew Tom planned the murder of that prostitute!!
What I'm wondering is, did he also plan the dead horse surprise?
@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319 and Tom witnessed the aftermath of Woltz's rape of the birthday girl. This disgusted the Don upon hearing about it.
th-cam.com/video/ePHVaK_OpUc/w-d-xo.html
Behind the scenes of godfather
How wrong can you be:
It was the senator. Tom used it as a leverage to 'nose-hooked' him
Another great addition to the channel. Looking fowaed to next week. Congrats on the 50,000
Thank You, Really Appreciate It 🙏💯
Tom is an amazing #2. The best way to put it if you use a sport comparison, he's like Scottie Pippen. Does everything for you, is the perfect Ying to your yang but as a sole leader, he's just not quite up there with Michael. Everyone needs a scottie, how Shaq needed Kobe or how Kobe needed Pau.
Well said my dude, hope the others understand this comparison
Man your Kobe reference almost brought me to tears. I forget for small periods of time now he’s not here and when I remember again it’s ass. On another note , great comparison!!
@@vitocorleone6040 You and me both brotha... still doesn't feel real that he's gone.
@OneOone Lion That is an accurate way to put it . It is like the past few years of the Georgia Bulldogs compared to the Alabama Crimson Tide . A sportswriter ranked the Bulldogs said that they were very good but not great . Such is life . You can do it any field or walk of life . Stephen King to Dean Koontz . Anyway a quote from a play from the late , great Sam Sheppard , “ It is like a game of pool . All the talent , practice , and technique in the world can’t beat you because you’ve got magic “. I would say that was true of Michael Corleone
Great Comment, love the Pippen line.
Man I wish they had just paid Duvall what he was asking, and made a BETTER Godfather: Part lll!
@brobbus0 You're 100% correct, IMO. I always imagined Tom suspected/knew the real deal with Fredo and would at a minimum be very conflicted about that if not just out and out disapprove. (Connie plays a similar role in III, she clearly suspects/knows, but being Connie she closes her eyes, doesn't look too closely and goes along with Michael's lie. Tom probably also would, but I suspect he'd have the strength to break away and distance himself if he so desired.) So Hagen retiring early and distancing himself makes perfect sense.
And that is an interesting story and emotional entanglement/dilemma to bring to the lawyer who is helping Michael 'wash himself of his sins.' I'm not sure Tom would feel he wanted to help Michael achieve that. Which is a great wrinkle.
George Hamilton's character is just a cardboard cut out that brings nothing more than legal expertise. Honestly, with such a nothing role they probably made a mistake casting a known actor. If John Q. Unknown played that role at least we could maybe ignore Hagen's absence a little more easily.
@brobbus0 There could still be a Godfather Part 4. Coda, The Death of Michael Corleone is the new Godfather Part III. Watch that if you haven't already seen it & you'll know what I mean.
Me Too. I love Robert Duvall... AWESOME actor. One of my favorites is "The Apostle".
GF III was doomed, with Duval or without Duval. The one that should not have been there was Al Pacino. The movie needed Michael Corleone to be there, but Pacino did not allow it. After Serpico, Pacino decided to be like Humphrey Bogart in all future movies, and never let the personage to appear, Pacino always playing Pacino.
Tom vs. Michael in GF-III would’ve been the greatest show down ever!
There still could be a Godfather Part 4, you never know !
@@transcendentpoet9254 its been over 20 years since part three and a lot of the actors are old or dead. Also, Michael Corleone died in GF3 alr smh, nobody wants to see vince or whatever his name is.
An amazing video.
A leader must know when its time for peace and for war. I think Michael had a better understanding for how to act in war time than Tom did. I also think that Tom knew how to deal with peace time better than Michael.
However, I think that Michael knew more about how to deal with peace time than Tom knew how to deal with War time.
I declare Michael the winner!!
The history of Frank Lucas proves that you underestimate a leaders assistant at your own peril.
Even so, Hagen was “cut out” of the rough stuff because his talents lay elsewhere. Hagans loyalty was beyond question- he could rebel only were he to see Michael as an enemy of the Corleone family.
the fictional version of frank lucas (but then the godfather is fiction too).
Frank Lucas was a snitch
@@jjccg9415 at least he actually lived...
That was true but remember we're speaking about Tom need to know basis 🤔 hit this conversation once I believe with someone called rooster but my memory isn't what it used to be??? Oh I don't even remember my passwords 🤣
Tom's ability to make deals and his knowledge of Michael's thinking processes would lead him to do two things, almost immediately: (1) Arrange for the death of Nieri, Michael's arch assassin, and (2) secure the permission of the heads of the other families to have Michael killed. Tom would get to them before Michael because Tom would make the deal that Michael can't: he would agree to keep the Corleone family in "the business," which means he would continue to use the Corleone holdings in Vegas to launder Mob money. I will always remember that Tom, like Sonny, wanted to make the deal to go into the drug racket with Solozzo. Michael's decision to kill Moe Greene and his obsession with going legit are what put him in Hyman Roth's crosshairs, which led in turn to the disastrous state of affairs when Pantegeli near turned state's evidence and bringing down the entire family. Then, there was that little comedy in Tahoe when Michael accused Tom of trying to bail on the Corleone family by taking the big casino job in Vegas. Further, no matter how angry Tom might have been at Fredo for what he did, I am certain that Michael's order to execute Fredo did not sit well with Tom. Killing their mother's son would be the final indication to Tom that Michael is capable of anything. Tom would know that he has to be just as ruthless if wants any chance of surviving a head to head with Michael, and that would be all the motive he'd need to strike first.
Facts
@Richard Wesley You have the superior ability to be the Boss of all the bosses.
I disagree... None of them families siding with Tom... They know what comes shortly after that...
Very well thought-out thesis, but despite his astute intelligence and strategic acumen, Tom falls far short compared to Michael's absolute tactical ruthlessness. Michael would prevail for that very reason alone.
@@rayhchow , nah, I'd do something stupid and get whacked. Thanks, though. :)
Can you do a video on "How did Sonny know that Paulie 'Sold Out the Oldman'?"
We kinda forget that Michael was a Marine during WW2 so that added military capability and training puts Michael up.
A hardened post WW2 vet X Don Corleone. It’s a wrap.
Robert Duvall had a big enough role to warrant a fair salary. Always wondered why he wasn’t in the third trilogy. I remember seeing him in “To Kill A Mockingbird”. He was very good in that movie. Also has a long list of excellent choices of film history..
The way Tom would deal with him is to set a series of events into motion, using Michael's own shortcomings against him, similar to how Sonny died. He would keep Michael's blood off of his own hands at all cost and no one would ever even suspect he was involved.
14:13 Hmm, I never noticed the two sets of twins in the movie before.
Another awesome video
Glad you enjoyed it 💯
@@TheCultureMafia what's the background music?
Great video! I hope you will do the analysis of Sonny Corleone next
Thank You glad you enjoyed it 💯
We DEFINITELY have a Video analysing more major Characters, Especially Sonny Corleone 🙌
Sonny was a hot head.
You guys seriously put out some of the best content. Bravo! Looking forward to what comes next!
Vito instructed to make Jack Wolz an offer he couldn't refuse. Tom identified the weakness in horses. Has Tom been underestimated on some of those criteria?
One big advantage Tom would have had I think was he was around Vito from the start in regards to him building the empire. Whereas Mike wanted nothing to do with the family business at the beginning at least.
This war wouldn't be on the street but in the courtroom. Tom wins that 100%.
If he could stay safe and mike couldn’t get people close to him
@@zackprice8688 Tom could have screwed him six ways to sunday had Tom turned during the investigation on Part 2.
Two things spoiled part 3 completely :1- The absence of Tom Hagen 2- The change in Michael's character and in fact his voice
due to their whole dynamic i think after a disagreement and potential fall out they would make peace at the end of the movie
I'm picking Tom Hagen. On top of being more respected, he would have learned Michael's thought process after being his consigliere for decades. Plus being with Vito from the beginning of the 5 families is definitely an advantage.
Your analysis is awesome! TY “you’re not a war time consigliere Tom” (paraphrased ) is all that needs to be said! Michaels hands down “and twice on Sunday”. Ruthlessness is a big difference between people and Michael has it in spades
Michael wins against Vito.
I think that you've overestimated Tom's abilities and influence, but most importantly his level of confidence. As much as he was well-thought of and respected, that he was not Sicilian would always be held against him both within and without the Corleone cosche. Tom was also well-aware of this and never really showed and disloyalty, even when opposing his dons. I think the reason that the storyline was not pursued was because it was both implausible and that Michael would discover and snuff out any such betrayals after Fredo without hesitation.
being sicilian doesn't grant extra gifts, I hate stereotypes
@@slickchick5811 Lol you need to think about the time in which Godfather is set in & the origins of the mob. Being a non-Italian alone put him at a disadvantage for making any big moves in that regard.
Robert Duvall has proven over the years to be a great actor with a legacy. I can see not as much as Al Pacino but he deserved to be closer in the ball park to his wishes. 3 wasn’t the same without Tom.
Tom was just so damn competent. Hard to imagine him making a major mistake
This should have happened in Godfather III. I dont think Tom would have approved of Fredos death.
You forgot that fear induces action to get rid of the source. Advantage Tom
It's interesting how much Connie changed throughout the movie franchise. In part three Michael said to her, "Maybe they should fear you." Connie poisoned her own godfather, justifiably though. Before Vincent took over as Don, Connie ran the Family as if she were Vito's true heir.
Another character that changed a lot was Mama Coreleone. By the third film she had come into her own, telling Connie that she had to wait like everybody else to see her brother.
One thing I noticed in the films is the fact that Fredo never really had a one on one interaction with his mother.
Very insightful. Thanks for sharing these facts
I think that the most likely result would be a win by Michael which destroyed the whole family, but I also think that there would be a chance that Tom would win, he would have allies on allies on allies. He’d basically have an international mob, with the best consigliere you could find, and all the info and ability to read a Corleone one would need
I think Michael would win 🤔
In the godfather movies we all know how smart and dangerous Michael is plus he wouldn't have any problem killing someone that he loves like he did with fredo
Fredo work with Hyman Roth when he said he never heard of him. Just so happened when Fredo caught in a lie, Michael realized Fredo was part of Michael Assassination so therefore, Fredo was marked to die by Roth or Michael. Fredo was a dead man either way. Even if Michael was killed, Fredo would had eventually still been killed. Michael had to get rid of Fredo after what Fredo did.
with intelligence I wouldn't say it is a draw. I would say that Tom Hagens would win, because a part from the other Corleones, he is the only one that went to the University, and finished it with a degree in law.
I agree Hagen would win, but before enlisting in the military, Michael was majoring in mathematics at Dartmouth ... hardly a slouch.
But Michael attended a Harvard League school and served in the US Military. Hard to say
Michael was a Captain
Micheal was way smarter in life and also streetsmart and booksmart plus he went in the army and fought wich means he had alot of brains and balls where as Tom only was only booksmart Michael would win easily no discussion
@@TheGarlicfather Tom had a prostitute murdered just to frame a Senator ... and he was Vito's main man, meaning he was ballsy too
Winner - Michael.
Tom had diplomacy power because he whelded the Corleone name.
Tom would not have the same level of respect or diplomatic strength without the family name.
Yes but Tom also enjoys an outstanding reputation in his own right.
Amazing analisis as always!!
Tom wasn’t a wartime consigliere…
When Michael said: "You're out Tom" that was strategic and it was a brilliant play to keep Tom outside the new plans to take out the mob families. Besides, Tom and Sonny was ok with drug business, and Vito was not for it. Michael held the family away from drugs and it gave his family more power as his father predicted. My win goes to Michael because he would never cross his father except for taking out his brother who was a traitor that almost had Michael killed.
Traitor*
@@T-roc57 thanks!... auto spell mistake.
Tom wasn't really ok with drugs but he felt he had no choice since they had captured him. And sonny didnt like drugs but liked the money in it
@@nowrestlingiq7317 Not getting into that... the point here, they were open to it and Both Vito and Michael were not. As you go into Godfather III Michael was not involved with drugs. Not everything up for negotiations, and it almost got Vito killed because of Sunny's big mouth. Prior meetings Tom said they would lose power if they didn't go along with the other families in selling drugs. Vito was 100% not interested. That was wisdom.
@@T-roc57 Fredo didn't give a shit about killing Michael, and I frankly don't understanding why Michael felt guilty about killing his brother when Fredo was totally involved with Hyman Roth to take out Michael. Fredo got with outsiders to topple his own family? Fredo was more evil than what he appeared to be.
It would be an interesting story if any of Hagen's descendants would "marry" a Corleone. And if that any offspring would possess the diplomacy of Tom (of some sort) to any of Don Vito's descendants, he/she could be threatening enough, for both Italian-American and Black American mobster/gangster organization.
In some sense, a perfect (?) story for a novel or video game plotline.
Tough call. It would come down to fear and viciousness (Michael) vs experience and respect (Tom). The only way Tom stands a chance is if he recruits someone with strategic prowess and ruthlessness, which is possible because he's more respected overall.
I'd say Michael Corleone too. Being a Siciliano
Best negotiator: Tom 'Corleone' Hagen
I do not know if it was an error in film making but in the Scene where Tom has to tell Vito about Sonny’s death. Vito says to call Amerigo Bonasera the undertaker. Tom picks up the phone and without looking up the number he dials and gets Amerigo. As I said it could just be a flaw in the filmmaking or it could be an example of how intelligent Tom really is. I like to think that Tom has the respect of all the Italians because he brought a photographic memory to whatever he did. I have no other evidence I just thought it was interesting him not having to look up the number.
my favorite character!!! duvall really delivered a stellar supporting performance
I am stunned by the reverence to the godfather theme. Kudos to puzo for writing something where people take pleasure in identifying with vito or Michael! At the end of the day they were criminals who compromised their conscience and managed to convince themselves that they were fair and lived shamelessly as If they were heroes.
Wonder how vito would have reacted to meeting a man who had contempt for the life he led without fearing him .. Will vito feel powerless against such a man? Because vito drew power from others weakness.
Would that man be Kay's father?
Very interesting subject indeed and each individual viewer definitely has his own ground of picking the winner. I would picture both Tom and Michael as true warriors. Tom is a classy top contender that possesses all textbook techniques and skills, particularly his footwork, but he also falls short of pulling out the devastating K.O. blow. For Tom to win this championship bout, he must hope for the fight going to distance, and would definitely draw the overall advantages as each round piles up. Otherwise, Michael would have taken him out in early rounds with his crippling fearsome left hooks. Michael just possesses that raw and vicious K.O. punch that is 2 cuts above Tom. Having read the novels and repeatedly watched the movies over the years, my sentimental vote goes to Tom because his character and personality were much more likable. My rational sense however tells me Michael would keep his championship belt safely intact!
ps. ~ In reality both Al Pacino and Robert Duvall are outstanding great actors, two supreme champions !! Cheers … 🥃
Another awesome video.
Very nice work.
Excellent!!!
Glad You Enjoyed it, Thank You 🙏💯
Mike would win as Tom doesn't have the heart to kill him. This is a wonderful and completely enjoyable vid. TY.
Duvall & Pacino were such handsome young men.
Michael and Tom were lifelong friends.It would have been quite unbelievable if the Godfather3 would have been about Michael V Tom.
Michael was already doing some soul searching having given the order to kill his brother Fredo.
Michael would have also questioned his own thoughts when he said previously that Tom was the only person he could trust.
I think Francis Ford Coppola did a really good job on Godfather 3 which I enjoyed even though some people thought
the movie was just a cash cow.
Bad actors because he hired them out of personal favours. Like we get the premise of the plot etc but goddammit the disparity of the acting skill. Al Pacino carried the mediocre actors HARD
Duvall is such a fantastic actor. He played Stalin so convincingly that some people actually thought Stalin was back from the dead. And he did a fantastic job of acting, writing and directing the apostle and assassination tango.
While the original idea of Godfather 3 is intriguing on a certain academic level, I'm glad it never happened. Tom Haegen is Michael's best friend. A brother through thick and thin. Take it from experience, nothing hurts your soul like fighting your closest friend. No matter how it'd end, no matter who was still alive when the smoke cleared they'd both be dead.
Man…Michael is so ruthless and might have the fear advantage but I believe Tom would win, because he knows Michael so well and could always be a step ahead
Anyone who truly paid attention to the films would realize that Tom was always several steps behind in interpreting the machinations of both Vito and Michael's enemies, which is partially why Michael took care to keep Tom out of the fold until he was absolutely needed. Tom was Michael's consigliere in name only; Michael made moves independent of his counsel and really had no use for Tom's faculties outside of legal matters and reaching out for business deals.
Also, thanks to Tom's poor information management skills, Michael lost his edge in his meeting with Senator Geary as his intention to overtake Meyer Klingman was known well in advance. Tom also couldn't hide his plans to relocate to Florida from Michael, as well as him being tapped for deals outside of the Family.
And how on earth did Tom not know that Kay was going to an ABORTION CLINIC after a FAILED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT? Was she not driven there with protection?? Did she go on her own???
As for diplomacy, it was Michael's ambition, decisiveness and reputation for 'repaying debts' which kept the wolves at bay. On the other hand, Peacemaker Tom very likely would've taken Tessio up on his offer...
This is not to say that Tom couldn't get the drop on Michael if the opportunity presented itself - even Michael said "you can kill anyone" - but in a campaign, Michael has Tom beat in every category you can think of hands down. Sorry.
Great video
I'd also point out the in the movies, at least, Tom never successfully negotiated anything. He also assumed Clemenza would be the traitor, not Tessio. It didn't surprise Michael at all.
@@carlrood4457 not totally true. His Daddy tipped him who the traitor would be.
Abortion clinic you say? In the 40’s/50’s? No no. She took this endeavor upon herself with a bottle of gin and a coat hanger.
@@TheBerkeleyBeauty Abortion clinics were very much in existence in the 1940s and 1950s - now whether they were legally operated is a different story. If there were no proper clinics in Nevada at that time then she would've had it conducted in a hospital setting in secret.
Wherever she went, she would've needed an escort detail as she was strictly prohibited from vacating the estate by Tom, so the smell of alcohol on her breath or through her pores would've been easily detected by the men (many of whom like to drink themselves) and reported to Tom.
As for the hanger, she told Michael that she "had it killed" (very likely by a trained professional)
I totally agree with you!
Man the quality of your videos is as great as a TH-cam video gets
I have been watching all your videos and eagerly anticipate the next.
I watched GF2 recently which was my personal favorite of the trilogy. When you showed the scene with Tom and Micheal where Micheal told Tom he would be the Don, it made me wonder if Tom really was appointed the Don, would he be Don Corleone? Also if Tom was actually in GF3, would he have been Vincenzo's lawyer/consigliere?
As far as Tom vs Micheal, I would argue that Tom may win because he was consigliere during both Vito and Micheal's regimes and would have the legal, diplomatic, and even political leverage against Micheal. Tom knew too much to not be a serious threat. The greatest enemy may not necessarily the one sneaking up from behind, but the one in front of you.
As Luchese said in GF3, "Finance is a gun, politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Luchese was an idiot (the charachter in Godfather 3)
Tom and Michael needed each other. They couldn;t go to war
I swear one day this channel is going to blow up great video and I’m picking Tom over Michael congrats on getting passed 50k subs
By the way, Tom was my inspiration to go to law school because I want to be a consigliere for my employer. English is not my native language, but I passed LSAT, law school and bar exams. Tom is my idol.
This committee owes my client an apology!
Book smart, and street smart is something I Heard real gangsters say is a edge in life
I'm picking Tom over Michael. Michael lets his petty thirst for revenge blind him. Tom for the most part is way more rational. Michael isn't a people person, that's part of the reason why he was betrayed multiple times. Tom is a people person. People trust him. Politicans, judges, mayors, governors, etc. All these men trust him. Tom doesn't need brutality and fear. He has intelligence, respect and diplomacy. He wouldn't need to be a war general. He would most likely have a war general at his disposal. I just think it is better to be respected than feared and Hagen was definitely more respected than Michael ever was. Also without Tom Michael's cunning plan to take out the police captain and the Turk would have had a bad aftermath. In the book they were able to get the word out that the police captain was dirty and they were able to get a fall guy because of Tom's connections with the press and as an attorney. Michael needed Tom more than Tom needed Michael. Tom would beat Michael, simple as that.
I strongly disagree, Michael never let anything but his cold analysis of a situation drive him towards meticulous and drastic plans to handle terrible issues, even when it came to his closest family members he tried and acted without passion. Tom Hagen has diplomacy and all but the respect he has comes from the fear that the family he's been welcomed in inspires to everyone, if they were going to war against each other, I've got no doubt that Tom "Corleone" would become Tom Hagen again. His only strengths are his knowledge about the family business, he can snitch but other thant that, against a cold-blooded mob like Michael, he doesn't get the slightest chance to win in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong I love Tom's character and the video is enjoyable but the it could have only been a 2 seconds smirk from Michael, there's absolutely no competition.
I love tom, but i didn't think he has what it takes to lead a crime family.
Tom vs. Michael would be amazing. I personally think Tom will win simply because of his personality.
Tom reach inside the police department's is something to keep in mind. This is a really tough one.
When sollozo says "my compliments" and hagen accepts it with respect+ gesture, oh boy it was one of the best scene.
Very underrated
being there before Michael, got to say Tom would have had the connections. When Michael brought Frank's brother into the courtroom from the old country, that showed how far reaching he could go. I think Tom had the ear of the old guard from the old country and may have convinced them to side with him if it had got to that.
Made big mistake not paying Duvall the same as others. He earned that respect by his work as Tom Hagen. Look how much more they would have made with him in the sequel..
It's really hard to say but I think it would probably come down to who's the most cunning of all. Both of them have their own advantages in regards to connections. However Michael is someone who doesn't like to lose and so even if it means cheating, Michael would probably win. Tom is more of a lawyer legal strategic guy. But then again, he can also think exactly like a Corleone...so, who knows. It would have been a fabulous rival match.
Michael had great intuition skills but Tom had great commomsense of running things
I noticed in the GFmovies, Michael was slightly disrespectful to Tom (in every scene). It seemed like he didn't regard Tom as true family. Sonny, on the other hand, showed so much love to him. Tom pretty much would argue with Sonny, and he would back down a bit.
Michael probably resented Tom...
If Tom betrayed Michael, I don’t think he would want to kill Michael, like Fredo. But in a head-to-head, Tom’s connections and intelligence would be a difficult obstacle to overcome.
However, Michael has an almost unnatural ability to get out of sticky situations. That, plus his brutality and his clear compliance with the death of another brother, makes Michael the winner to me.
Also, I think Michael would take Tom’s betrayal especially hard since he believed he could trust him wholeheartedly, and he would have even less mercy for him.
I definitely can see Michael barely getting out of this fight while losing so much fighting Tom.
While I agree with all of the points this video was made, we must remember that this fight will take place after Fredo was killed by Michael at the end of p2, instantly spawning hesitation and uncertainty within the family, perhaps even chaos due to Fredo's murder
Michael is definitely much crueler and is "evil" compared to his father, and I'm 100% sure that the rest of the family members will see that, causing them to side with Tom (who definitely has compassion/diplomacy similar to Vito.).
This type of fight will instantly cause a civil war.
Would have made an amazing movie 3 compared to what was created.
Tom absolutely knew Michael was serious about taking out Solozzo and McCluskey. He didn't laugh or play it off as a joke
I would say the fact sonny , clemenza and tessio didnt laugh immediately means they knew he was serious and the right move.
It would have never worked. Vito Corleone adopted Tom and made him Consigliere precisely because he wasn't Italian. This way he could never become a made man (in those times). Even if he took over he'd have no soldiers.
No soldiers? Lol the mob fell apart because ppl followed personal loyalties and not “follow suit” so no, don’t for one second think the streets would ever be that simple. For one Tom could have money. The way he spreads it around could easily be a big win for him. I could go on
@@MrJRD827 but he couldn't find any big alliances and many would consider going with the break off to be a very risky move
I never thought Micheal liked Tom.
Sonny loved Tom like a brother, there was a strong bond between them.
Micheal would have killed Tom himself.
@@Petal4822 You're right. Sonny was emotional and hot headed because of that. I just don't know if Michael was always like that, or if it's something he had to grow into, as triggered by the assassination attempt on his father. And subsequent education he received from the retired Don. Would Michael just continue living a mobless life as a war hero had he not been pulled into the business end of it by necessity? If Fredo was capable of leading the family as the eldest, Michael would have perhaps never become a ruthless mobster?
It was clear that Vito never wanted that life for Michael, because he saw the drive and potential Michael had to become something great outside of a life of crime. Perhaps I should read the Mario Puzo's books to see if there is an origin story about Michael.
All due respect to your amazing work, pentangeli took himself out. Silent code "goodbye Frankie five angels (forever) "💗
I agree with your analysis and general conclusion, with the exception of the Intelligence category. Michael was far more intelligent than Hagen. Example in point: In the “it was Barzini all along scene with Don Vito”, Hagen had completely missed the point that Barzini was the mastermind behind the attempts against the Corleone family. That was a grave mistake and a lack of insight.
Perhaps because he was not a "war time consigliere".
That was Tom's overriding weakness.
Also, when Michael turned a "personal" situation into "business" in the first Godfather, Tom looked to be caught off guard as if he wouldn't have ever thought of the idea. It was Michael who defeated his fathers enemies when Tom was considering to cave, I honestly believe the Corleone Family would've eroded with his leadership, however, Tom would've found a way to build something even more powerful but outside of being within the "Mafia" structure because he was a brilliant mind.
It would've been his own origination that would be business, power and politically driven but wouldn't operate in the same manner as the mob although it would've had immense influence & ties to the underworld. Similar to how Murder Inc wasn't a part of crime families but moreso third parties.
Even Michael didn’t realized it. It was Vito who first realised that it was Bazzini and advised Michael that whoever will come with proposal of meeting is the traitor.
Reading all the comments i see why fredo resented mike so much even an outsider was respected more than he was
It would have to take something extraordinary for a war to take place. Even if Tom ended up on his own, he would do what he does best. he would make deals and use his diplomacy to get other outfits on his side, and then negotiate from a position of strength. Michael would be willing to at least listen, but Tom would do all he could to avoid a war. Now, knowing Michael, if he was just intent on taking out Tom, i would see him agreeing to a peace deal, and then just dealing with Tom later.
I think if you just compare them as Don's, I think Tom would likely be more successful, as long as peace was maintained. But, if full scale war broke out, Michael will go the extra length to win. But thats a big if.
GF3 would have been another classic if they just would have paid Duvall. Michael vs Tom would have been much more epic and personal than Michael vs the Illuminati.
I think Tom would, with the coming progress on the 70's and 80's things done with the other families without bloodshed.
I think Even though Tom Hagen was not a wartime counselor. That was spoken at the time when Sonny was alive. Tom is the kind of person who learns from his mistakes. So working with the original Don and with Michael he learned how to be a good counselor as well as a good don.
I think that in full on head to head warfare. Michael would win. However, with the political contacts and with the context with the other members of the Mafia that Tom had Tom would have a strategic advantage.
What I really think would happen is that Michael would realize how loyal Tom has been this whole time, and realized that Tom is actually trying to protect the family. And some sort of agreement would be made.
Michael and Tom are two sides of a coin and Connie being the rim of the coin once she came into her own.
Nevertheless when pinned against each other factor fear and brutality will prevail in a crime family.
Great way of putting it especially with Connie being the rim. She absolutely became a powerhouse in a very special position.
I could easily watch a spin off movie where Tom overthrones Michael for the sake of Corleone's family; just pointing out the fact that if Tom assumed the role of the family leader, the family wouldnt go apart as the GF3 did. Among those two, Tom was the only one who truly undrstood the meaning of family, Michael lost it all at the end because he couldnt behold and understand this simple aspect.
waiting......... ❤️
An awesome breakdown and yes I think that Michael would win but Tom would have made so many moves that Michael would be as we see him in Godfather 3 would be ruined realizing he destroyed his family in the end. Because Tom I feel would have accumulated enough allies that Michael would win his war with Tom only to see that he now had all the rest of the families and mobs across the U.S. coming after him at the same time something he never faced before.
Is there a video discussing what happened during the gap in time between the death of Mary and Mike dying?
Did Connie take a bigger role? Did Vincent get out of control and self destruct?
The Godfather part 3 wasn’t even worth watching.Robert Duvall definitely deserved the money not only for being as big if not higher then Pacino at the time.Duvall would have made the movie a better one for sure.Who would win,you can debate all day but the plot would have damn sure been more interesting then what we actually got.