Why Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom devs had to start over
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2025
- The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is a watershed moment for Nintendo. Behind the scenes, several key developers that have worked with the Zelda franchise for many years have been finally given the chance to lead the creation of a game, rather than sticking closely to what they are told by senior figures such as Eiji Aonuma.
This does come with some drawbacks, such as Aonuma "overturning the tea-table" by persuading the team to completely rework their original idea for the game.
The result is a game that is wholly unlike anything else that Nintendo has done with Zelda in the past.
Lots of love,
BretonStripes, Kotor, and the kids
Music by Holizna: freemusicarchi...
Don’t you hate when your working on something and then like a year in you say “This isn’t working. We need to rethink this.”
Been there before
It's soul crushing
This is common in any creative-based job/career/industry... But yea it s*cks balls.
Been there... As long as I'm not fire and they still pay me, whatever. But I'll be nervous the whole time
I do wonder what the original concept looked like
I mean Disney did that for Zootopia, with only a year left on development. Turned out one of their best films ever.
Iwata: "our differences are what makes each of us valuable"
Me: "every problem can be solved by stacking enough identical beds"
The sad truth 😔
clouds are honestly better once you unlock them
@@RustyhairedLamialp9575 yes and no - they effectively stack infinitely, and don't need support, but they cost more per platform, limiting how many you can actually have at a time, and they will only support you for a short period, so you need to move fast and it makes trying something clever into a reflex challenge.
Overall, and on average, they are better, but there are still times Old Beds are better.
@@rmsgreyYou only need 4 triangles to make the bed pointless
@@Mr_Moonlight65 You try firing three charged bow shots from atop a cloud and then tell me that the bed is pointless...
It’s true Zelda doesn’t fight with a sword and shield, but she HAS been a Sheikah warrior, (not to mention a pirate captain and often uses the bow of light). I think it would have been cool to implement Sheikah mode instead of the sword and shield ability
Every Zelda is different, while Link usually remains unchanged. (Personally I would have liked her to use a spear/lance).
That's what I was thinking.
The dungeon maker in the Link's Awakening remake makes way more sense when you learn about one of the original ideas for Echoes of Wisdom
That’s true! Personally, I wasn’t very fond of that feature though.
I didn't even touch it
Glad THAT didnt go through. Would have hated to wait all that time just for nintendo to go "No, YOU make the game!!"
It's almost like they were frustrated that they didn't actually get to make a new game! (And so tried to give everybody the ability to make a Zelda game)
It's a cool idea, but most people, including myself, underestimated the prerequisites in making a dungeon I think. Zelda dungeons are not the same as mario levels and had a lot more rules (if it was It's own game, the rules could probably be relaxed or entirely removed). A shame it had a lot of restrictions as a side mode. I still hope they'll make a zelda maker someday.
I definitely would have been the kind of player to only use my sword through the whole game. I love the choice to limit the sword and heavily focus on the echo mechanic with Zelda as the protagonist. It’s a really fun and fresh way to play, both limiting and freeing at the same time.
Same, but then I ended up almost never using it.
I feel overwhelmed by the number of echoes
The fact Link is intrinsically associated with being a master swordsman and archer is why I felt Tears of the Kingdom had lost the identity the franchise had established for decades due to Zonai devices completely overshadowing the usefulness of Link's traditional skills. Even the "legendary" Master Sword became second fiddle to everything else in the game.
After seeing Echoes of Wisdom, I feel that Tears of the Kingdom should have had Zelda as the protagonist given how she would have been a more natural fit as a Zonai inventor given her well established history as a scientist and scolar. Having Link sent back in time and couragously sacrifice his life to become a dragon would have been far more befitting his role as the current host for the Spirit of the Hero.
That would have been incredibly cool
While I think that would be cool and quite fitting, I think also there's nothing wrong with Link developing new skills and growing rather than remaining nearly the same as he's always been like has been done in the past. It also wouldn't make sense lore wise for Link to be the one to turn into a dragon because the whole reason for that was to get the master sword to Link, give it time to heal, and to power it up. Link wouldn't have been able to power it up so it would've just been the same sword that failed to defeat Ganondorf at the beginning of the game.
BotW made clear that Zelda's family has the sacred power passed through their family and that's what powered up the sword while she was a dragon - the sword bathing in the sacred power essentially. So it wouldn't have worked unless they retconned things.
What are you talking about, Bows are the most powerful weapon in TOTK. Sure you can attach zonai stuff on it but most of the time people uses elemental parts. Link feel the most like a bowman than any other main series game there. In fact I rarely see a playthourgh where people regularly fight with zonai machines and often just hack and slash.
@@evan_mirDM Two things; firstly your statement about the bow being superior to any melee weapon, even the "legendary" Master Sword, shows that you agree with my sentiment about the franchise losing it's identity and secondly, you should go and look at how some Zonai devices make any enemy encounter far easier than even a multi-bomb bow can manage - go look at the "Hyrule Smacker" for example.
It does feel like that, isn't?
And since Zelda was always associated with the Triforce of Wisdom and she is depicted as a nerd (couldn't find a better word) in BotW it would have fit well with the Zonai powers.
I like how you showed the Water Temple when you mentioned she didn’t finish it. I stopped playing for two months when I got stuck there. Finally got back to it and finished.
It’s actually wild to think that members working on a remake had a hard time with the original
It def explains a lot about the Majora remake
I mean, that kinda stuff has always happened in the industry as time goes on and new generations of people come in. Within Zelda itself, I think it was actually Aonuma who once shared that he has never been able to finish Zelda 1.
I believe the Majora remake is more explained by Aonuma himself having a long wishlist and seeing the 3D version as a chance to fix all his regrets, for better or for worse.
I got a friend to play N64 Majora and the amount of salt he produced while playing the game would be enough to supply the universe. He hates the game mechanics so much and called it janky. Meanwhile I am patiently waiting for him to reach stown tower and get the heart attack of his life.
The moral of the story: it takes great courage to use wisdom to power through challenges…
It's a great story, but I'm a little tired of Nintendo leads portraying themselves as the wise sages of the project just because they listened to those under them for once.
The real credit for innovation often goes to the unsung young talent who grew up with these game series and worked hard to live out their dream of one day making their mark on them. And you can be darn sure that Peach and Zelda only got their time in the sun this year because the fans have been demanding it SO loudly.
But you also have an experience issue. Shiggy was inspired to do the first game by remembering exploring the countryside nearchis home. The current gen devs are inspired by playing Zelda. You have to be careful not have the copy of a copy problem
@@specialnewb9821 Shiggy????????? bro stop 😭
that is unfortunately how japanese work culture is from what i have learned of it. seniors are held with high regard and treated as a higher class.
@@deadinside-iq2ry Unfortunately? Let me guess. You would rather force them to retire and rot in some nursing home away from their loved ones wasting their remaining years. People like you are the reason gaming culture still carries stigma.
@@deadinside-iq2ry Do the Shimmy Wiggle, Shiggy! Right on!
I can tell none of the dungeon maker ideas went to waste bc these dunegons so far have been 💯💯❤️
This was really pleasant to hear. It is a cool story, and I appreciate that the creative minds at Nintendo are willing to deliver new experiences rather than giving us the same game year after year.
You say as they give us a game filled to the brim with recycled assets and ideas
Oh they gave us a new experience....a bad one
@@ultimate9056 Ya they recycled assets and threw a boring mechanic in. Game looks terrible
@@ultimate9056If this is Nintendo’s idea of recycled assets and ideas, feed me a truck’s worth of this since I’d rather have this over the next Ubisoft open world buggy tower slop
@@cappy2282🤡 Maybe play the game first
Miyamoto is the tsunami and aonuma is now the earthquake. You dont know when they will arrive. But when they do they will change the whole landscape and place if they feel like it
miyamoto is covered by water, whereas aonuma is upfront, but in the end they're both the same
Was not expecting dream team tutorial lore in this video ngl
At 4:50 fans have been absolutely BEGGING for a Zelda game for decades. And they only delivered it because they were practically forced to, due to the gameplay restrictions of discouraging using a sword. Man they are so inflexible lol.
I am absolutely loving echoes of wisdom right now
Same same..scratches the TotK creativity itch
@@CJ1983and the classic dungeon crawling itch! It's the best of both worlds imo!
@@CJ1983Sounds like my fears for the game were well founded then. When will Nintendo make an actually new game for once as we've gotten nothing completely original since BOTW which wasn't even supposed to be for the Switch
@@ultimate9056technically any franchise is nothing new the next name. Be it story, name, or idea. They just took out what people liked and put it in a new game. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Same here putting down the game itself is even difficult that's how fun it is
I have always thought most of the zelda games are too easy, and getting easier. I think older games provided at least some challenge, but BotW or TotK for example barely have anything challenging at all. I really cannot condone making it even easier because some people are so bad at playing that even this level of non-challenge is too much. Especially when it comes to puzzles, I think making a puzzle easier is extremely detrimental because it risks transforming it into just busy work. According to reviews, it seems like this happened in echoes given that most puzzles have multiple, simple to conceive of solutions. It definitely happened in BotW where almost all puzzles where about noticing something extremely simple, like a metal block in water, or a switch or whatever and the "puzzle" is choosing which of your many tools will best do the simple task you are obviously meant to do.
At least as far as the aging Zelda audience is concerned the games need to be, if not more complex and challenging as older zeldas, then at least on par. People will lose interest in a franchise that is afraid of challenging the player (I myself have mostly lost interest in Zelda after TotK). And even for the new, younger fans, I think its a disservice to them to treat them like dum-dums, it just makes the game worse for everyone.
Honestly, this was TotK's best failure and Aonuma just didn't want it to repeat again in Echoes. Most players in BotW's sequel will just sword-bashing their way into the final boss. I'd say 80% the players used the classic link's abilities instead of finding new ways to explore Hyrule.
It may be appealing to take in ideas from everyone, but this isn't without risk. You need a clear vision and an understanding of what the game is and is not. The more people contributing, the greater the risk that this is diluted. Good ideas can come from the strangest of places, but so can bad ideas. And it's not easy knowing if an idea is good or bad in a given context.
A game that takes forever to make CAN still end up sucking, but a game that is rushed is SURE to suck. Nintendo clearly understands this when it comes to their most venerated IPs.
I missed your narrator voice. A true Zelda fan.
Your videos are so well produced, you speak well and the content is cool and well written, I have no idea how your channel isn't already huge because you deserve it. Sub here and cheering your recognition happens soon!!
That's why they pay Aonuma the big bucks. This game rocks and I'm glad he intervened. We've needed more 2D Zelda for a long time, and what a return it's had.
Imagine being so bad at playing games, but so passionate about them regardless that you!re able to innovate with ways to make games more accessible to people who are bad at playing? What a legend!
Accessibility is a good thing, but one of EOW's biggest issues is how absurdly easy it is to cheese everything. I'm glad Sano has risen the ranks and she directed a good game, but I hope in the future she tries to balance accessiility more with engaging challenge.
At least could keep the old version to maybe rework later on maybe.
I really hope they don't do a dungeon maker but rather something like dragon quest builders did.
Echoes of the wisdom is one of the best games I ever played and for sure my favorite top-down zelda game. I grew up with links awakening and played every single zelda game. This one is awesome, the dungeons are back (yes!) but you got the exploration-part like totk and botw. But I am also craving for a dragon quest builder-esq zelda. Where you can share your islands / dungeons.
Just a dungeonmaker would be not that interesting for me... creativity is about more than that, and that's probably what nintendo knows too.
How did I know it started as a Zelda dungeon maker? lol
Very good summary of Ask the Developer Vol. 13. Thanks!
Ngl but I’m glad they flipped the script
We could’ve gotten a dungeon maker game instead of Echoes of Wisdom
Which would you have preferred?
Echoes. This games is a blast.
it's funny how the game was made in part by a woman that kinda is all about less challenge, then have the game screw you over with ennemies that 2 shot you most of the time, i love tbh and indeed the game gives you lots of tools to avoid death but man it did happen, more than in my ALTTP walkthrough! maybe i'm bad with analog movement for top down zelda
I have never considered any Zelda game as in any way difficult, except Zelda 2. I feel the Zelda games have been increasingly geared towards 6 year olds and aren't as interesting as they used to be.
On the Dream team part I feel that enemies were a bit too tanky but what really sucked was the motion controls in the game
So the millions if tutorials in mrio and luigi is also cuz of sano????
Seriously. Sounds like they needed more play testers. Having an easy mode for inexperienced players is fine. But they should have playtested normal mode more and realized that players weren't having fun because of the forced tutorials.
Love these videos, but now I'm really worried about that poor moon. What's going on?
Necessary, expensive, and ambiguous; a trifecta of traits that have executives running for the hills, and that come up _all the time_ in creative industry.
Why do the jumpsuits make them look like prisoners 💀
2:38 you ruined the aspect ratio. Look, the button icons aren't even circles
My genitals were mutilated when i was a baby by a doctor. I suffer to this day with hirrific scaring. I'm sorry the sight of oot in a non native resolution is upsetting you
Imma be real, who tf cares. I mean I guess you do, but idk why...
Didn't thought to see someone care about native resolution 💀
@@justadragonnamemarcus1751 it's not about resolution as much as it is about stretching out the image
That wisdom at the end 🙏
I prefer a sword to magic in all games! RPGs or MMOs!
How long was Sano stuck in the Water Temple for?
Great game so far, very happy with my purchase, some people are just unpleasable, you can hand them an amazing game and they will still be upset.
Maybe it's because the game isn't amazing.
@@synical13 Nah you trippin
@@gavinferguson2938It's an alright game, not botw tears oot or lbw or hell links awakening is better but eh worth the 50$ I payed at Costco
There will be a "real" new Zelda released together right after the Switch 2, right? Right?!
Thanks for the vid
re-invent the wheel.
I find it funny how the series is called "The Legend of Zelda" yet Zelda is almost never the main character!
I wish it stayed that way
@@Bempes3477 why though?
It's a breath of fresh air in my opinion
@@apollyon6855 I don’t want to have to play as Zelda, and I _especially_ don’t like being forced to rescue Link.
@@Bempes3477Cool! Sounds like you’re not the audience of that game then :)
@@21Shells I’m a fan of the series. If I’m not the target audience then they’re not doing their job.
hm, i dont think sano san is being praised for the good reasons here, making games more easy and casual just because shes not good at games is kinda hard to make her relatable to, while zelda echoes of wisdom is a great game and i already 100%ed it, it did feel even easier than links awakening, and i played it on hero mode to boot.
Kinda wish they went with the dungeon creator idea... the dungeons in Zelda have been so simple for so long, I would have loved to see what other people came up with.
Why do I feel like everyone gets creative freedom to do what they want at Nintendo except pokemon? 😢
because pokemon is not nintendo, only a third. gamefreak is an (mostly) independent company, which gets funding by nintendo to create games.
so one day we might get the legend of super zelda maker ?
He did a shigeru miyamoto 😂
Also this game is really fun
what happened to the cartoons?
"They made Dream Team easier because of her"
Me: " O H R E A L L Y ? ! - *T H A T ' S* W H Y W E G O T A L L O F T H O S E T U T O R I A L S ? ! "
Great video! ..."ocariner"? :D
Wow thank god Aonuma intervened, this game is so innovative and fun!
So we almost got a Zelda Maker. F.
EOW >> Zelda maker
fyi, Eiji is pronounced as 'agey', like age
So it is this Sano lady..she is the reason the games are way too easy now??
My thoughts exactly?
Probably, also the reason why Majora's Mask 3D is stupidly downgraded
Honestly it's good to also have easier "Zelda" games as long as it's explicit and not the only choice. It's great to ramp up new players. Not a norm to aim for all Zelda games.
It's a petty good game but bad stutter andlong boring unskipable dialog drag the experience down. I also wish there was more of a curated puzzle mode like in the dojo but with limited spells and less emphasis on a timer
Zelda fans cry for more story, and then complain when a new Zelda game has too much story.
@@chunkymonkey7983 it would be fine if it was skipable. The story adds little to nothing to the game, it's shallow and predictable. Also , I'm not a zelda fan. I'm a fan of good game design, which this game has some of but not without some choices that hinder the experience for me.
Aonuma as lead producer, not developer, has been... Weird.
Like his first major act has been killing the entire timeline HE created (so i really hope this game is a new tineline).
So hearing him completely redo gameplay structure makes sense.
This one is not entirely clear on timeline matters - the world map makes it seem like it's after LttP/LBW, but the story makes it seem like it's the earliest game yet, even before Skyward Sword. Either way, it's a lot more compatible with the old timelines than TotK.
I wouldn't mind being a game tester for Nintendo so I can inform them of some of their games that weren't perfect. Like TotK for example.
No Zelda game is perfect. Let’s stop pretending the other Zelda games had no flaws.
Good thing you're not a play tester.
@@hass556 oh every one of the Zelda games has issues but TotK stand out the most for me
Wholly new? It seems VERY similar to the systems seen in breath of the wild and tears of the kingdom
A producer of videogames that produces action games doesn't know how to play them? I don't know how to feel about this.
Top down Zelda has been about puzzles , not just combat.
So that's why the Majora's Mask remake is such a terrible game. EoW is fine, but soo much easy.
Eow hero mode is great. Beds just need to not heal on hero mode.
You are right about majora’s mask.
You can play Echoes of Wisdom however way that you would like. Set up challenges for yourself, or play in Hero mode. That's the beauty of it!
@@chunkymonkey7983if I have to “make my own challenge” then the game is not challenging. That’s not beauty, that’s just bad game design.
@@Bempes3477 The game is just as hard as you make it. If you want to purposefully hinder yourself from having more fun because you hate easier games (and then make the game easy on yourself,) then that's on you.
@@chunkymonkey7983 that’s not how game design works. If I have to arbitrarily restrict myself from the easiest solution to a problem in order for a game to be challenging then the game as it is designed and sold is objectively not challenging.
You’re asking me to add my own game design in order to make the game fun simply because the developers couldn’t be bothered to do it themselves. It’s not my job to do that, it’s theirs.
I do think this game could have been a lot more interesting.
Sano is one of the reasons majora mask 3d was horrible?!???
Wait.. Sano was "vital" in remaking a game that didn't really needed to be remade? And how did she actually help Echoes of Wisdom's design/development? With unintuitive design, AWFUL UI (a repeat from TotK) and many more!
I'm honestly sick of Nintendo making games that want to appeal to everyone.
If you want to make games for children, do that. If you want to make games with a lot of depth that require skills, do that! And then ACTUALLY design them in a non-intrusive way that assists the other side (either assist-modes, decent difficulty settings & hidden depth and such). The way they design games nowadays is just bad. I miss the SNES era.
It's pronounced "eyy-jii" Aonuma. Not "eye-jii." Can you at least get that right before you throw up more mediocre content on TH-cam?
Sano seems to be the reason why some games are piss easy baby mode, i don't agree with her position as a developer
Why did you ask for title suggestions if you were gonna go with the losing one? Probably because someone in the comments said it sounds like clickbait so you figured it'd get more views.
We used the title that won the poll at first but views were very low. We changed the title and more people started clicking on the video. I promise we're not trying to trick you.
@@VideoGameStoryTimesounds tricky to me
@@VideoGameStoryTimeIt does sound like you were trying to trick people go clickbait. Don’t ask for suggestions if you’re going to ignore them.
@@VideoGameStoryTime idk what their issue is.
You just have to ignore idiots like this.
They don't understand simple things like the definition of the word "suggestion".
Just do what's best for your channel and make something awesome again soon ❤
Jeesh. Over a video title. What is wrong with people..
@@VideoGameStoryTimeso dont make title polls anymore.
Echoes of Wisdom is such a breath of fresh air. I've been playing Zelda games since the original and this game feels like a proper return to form while simultaneously going somewhere new. I'd like the progression framework in EoW to be used iteratively in the next mainline 3D Zelda game.
However, how many times will the maps be reused from older games? References are nice, such as various locations in BotW representing key locations from previous games, but entire map layouts being used again is the one major flaw remaining IMO. E.g., exploration gameplay in EoW is great, but the map is just a slightly larger version of the same map from A Link to the Past, which was already reused in A Link Between Worlds.
So the moral of the story is that all actions games will get watered down to baby pablum over time in the name of exclusivity? That's the end game of the developmental process?
"exclusivity"? Did you mean "accessibility"?
And you can turn on Hero Mode.
2:30 So she is responsible to turn Zelda into a baby game? I feel so bad now. People who can't play games and don't want to think in a game are now in charge of Zelda. This sucks.
Calm down. That was never said.
So probably Sano is responsible for why puzzles are so easy and boring in this game. I hope this won't be the direction moving forward.
CURSE YOU SANO!!!!!!!!
So that's why the game is so easy.
I would say that they still didn’t get it right. The game has so many issues.
Like what?
@@demoniodelamemoriabeing an asset flip, doubling down on the "freedom" idea which is antithetical to the kind of good game design that makes the Zelda identity. And that's just the superficial stuff
@@ultimate9056who are you to decide, that the freedom idea is antithetical to the Zelda identity, when this series is based on the expirience of exploration.
@@ultimate9056Zelda is about exploration. The original concept was to have that feeling of the environment. It was from the creator that wanted a game that reminded him of bug catching.
@@LG555this person has been going into different comments complaining about everything. They’re just a troll.
Eiji is pronounced "Ay-jee" not "Eye-jee".
Not in love with the idea of deferring to people who can't play video games. You wouldn't do this with any other skill based activity. Fortunately didn't seem to hurt this game in particular. But I hope it's not the direction this industry is going in generally.
On a business end it makes sense and as much as harder games have a place. They aren't the entire market...
Seriously, who could have seen Nintendo catering to the casual audience?
Depends on the game. I found the Peach game so easy it wasn't fun, this one seems to strike a better balance. Wonder was definitely on the easier end of Mario games but still really great to play.
And then of course you have souls games where the challenge is the point. Its not a monoculture
So instead of implementing a good mechanic they cripple the player to force a gimmick, got it. They hated that people ignored the echoes but then made them annoying to scroll through and one of them so OP that most of them get ignored anyway. If you don't properly balance things out then where's the incentive to try new things? The fact that they had to add some sword use back in should have told them that they were doing something wrong. Also, one of the developers isn't good at games? That's just...YIKES.
Oh great... the one leading the future of Zelda is the one responsible for ruining Majora's Mask 3D
this game was way too easy
Start over? The engine is the same as LA's, and running much worse. Meanwhile, games miles more complicated gfx-wise run much better. The irony in having a tier-1 nintendo game requiring either a modded ovwrclocked switch or emulation to run properly is pretty deep... Nintendo should be ashamed of the state of theirs game.
Tricky comment to decipher.
Oh...so THATS who we have to blame for easy games, got it lol
I love that someone bad at games was the player they had in mind. It makes sure stuff doesn’t feel like a grind or unfair. A good game should be approachable and fun for every demographic. So many developers forget that
Uh, no. But it is a pretty good game nevertheless.
A good game accomplishes whatrever the goal is. It's fair that not all games are made with all demographics in mind.
Soo she was bad a games n wanted to make the games to easy sounds accurate however this game was enjoyable
Fire Sano, making jintendi ganes tooo easy, or at least give us hard modes
There's literally a "Hero Mode" accessible right from the start in EoW.
@@avasam06that only changes enemy damage. The level design itself is still completely mindless.
Didn't it occur to him that the reason why people preferred to use sword and shield is because using monsters and duplicating items isn't what people look for in a Zelda? can't they just create new IPs if they get tired of doing zelda?
Ocariner
Ya this game was easy pass. Echo mechanic instead of simple sword and bow was bad choice. I understand wanting to switch it up but this game looks extremely boring. (Same problem Tears of kingdom had)
This game a failure
So this is why the game sucks so badly.
it is remarkable how unexpressive zelda art style is now since the days of wind waker. really strips the character out
Y’all are tripping this game looks fire. And Zelda is standing on business 💯
You must have never played Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks
@@peacetreaty86 i miss when link and zelda had like, expressions on their faces and emotions and stuff.
@@kyburn6195 phantom hourglass was 🔥 y’all trippin 😂😂 I’m dead serious my ds broke and I never got to play spirit tracks
@@verygoodfreelancer one ☝️ day
0 likes 28 seconds in. These guys are really falling off
Shut up, you can't even beat a tutorial.