The best video GAMES have a story that takes its queues from GAMEPLAY instead of the other way around. Pac-Man eats ghosts because his simple body shape has only one animation, for eating pellets and bonus fruit. Doomguy kills demons because people don't like killing things that are morally ambiguous, but something defined by its evil clears everyone's conscience. (Even Nazis gained some sympathy in Wolfenstein because people still felt bad they were killing people indiscriminately). Sonic is fast to show off the processing speed of the Sega Genesis and curls into a ball to simplify attack animations and get more performance out of the console. Gordon Freeman is a silent protsgonist because it breaks immersion to be at odds with the dialogue spoken in first person. Etc. Story gives a game a scenario to create context that should intuitively nudge the player towards the point of the game.
Xenoblade's gameplay basically comes down to "single player MMO for a home console." And yet fans of the series can't shut up about the story, characters, themes... pretty much everything that has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay. Which would you rather play: a game that ends with you saying "that was fun", or one that literally ends with you in tears? (I know I'd take the second every time.)
@@angeldude101 The most played and replayed games, by the numbers, are games like Mario Kart, Smash Bros, and Pokemon. Story games are typically played once and replayed rarely. Sony has been struggling with this for several years.
@Mcl_Blue These games that stand the test of time in the pantheon of humanity's greatest achievements in game development, from Minecraft, to Tetris, to StarCraft are games that put gameplay first. Stories that only games can tell are ones that the player generates by playing.
I remember stuff saying he really didn't like the Mario galaxy developers literally sneaking in the Rosalina storybook sections. Considering how Galaxy 2 ended up and treated her, I believed it.
And yet he also somehow advocates for a consistent vision for the Zelda series, even creating the connections for the inital parts of the timeline itself, and says in an early 00s interview that doing otherwise would make fans feel betrayed.
@jacealbine I firmly believe that the next F-Zero game we will get will be to show off a console that can run it over 60Hz. A 120Hz or 144Hz OLED screen is common in phones, and if they could show off how smoothly you could see the sense of speed (low FPS causes more motion sickness and impairs the ability to follow movement) then we would see the next F-Zero. Every F-Zero game has been as high FPS as each console could handle.
In the very first New Super Mario Bros. game. That one on the DS actually did have a decent amount of creative choices... which went absent in later installments. It's so fortunate the swagger's back with Wonder. Thing is, while I certainly appreciate Miyamoto's "light on story, heavy on gameplay" approach, sometimes I think his focus on that can itself be an obstacle. For a game like a turn based RPG where you're going through the same enemy encounters many times over, it kind of NEEDS a story to keep someone moving through dungeons and exploring. It's a major part of those experiences. Imagine Baldur's Gate without all the lore and characters and themes and you have a rather dull slog through fighting wave after wave of gnolls forever. You know, Gauntlet. The only saving grace for Gauntlet is the multiplayer, which MAKES those games. Wizard destroyed the food. Heck, I enjoyed what he provided back in the older Zelda titles, so clearly he's not COMPLETELY anti-story. Come to think of it, Romero has a similar attitude, treating story in his shooty games as something that's like a story in "porn, people expect it, but it isn't important".... Which explains whatever was going on in Daikatana SO much. At least when Miyamoto goes light on story, there's enough threads there like in Link to the Past that we can stitch together a compelling narrative. I recall there was a struggle to go deeper with a story like in Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, too. I'm not saying Miyamoto's approach is wrong, just that he should probably go easier on other teams with their own leads. Maybe a nudge if the cutscenes get too obnoxiously long or if the story directly makes the act of playing the game unfun (like if a large chunk of Paper Mario just became a walking simulator to the next point to hit "A" on), but let them cook.
Well.. Dark Jaguar already said the BIG answer, though part of me would be tempted to say that taking a new spin on the original 2D platforming formula with what even Was the "NEW Super Mario Bros.", completely disconnected from the original 3 super marioses and Super by going back to their roots to try something they hadn't in years is its own kind of innovation.
“Miyamoto-San, we drastically increased the number of characters that can appear on screen!” “Excellent! I love seeing small numbers become large numbers! I wonder if there’s a game genre that could give me that same feeling.”
He's the reason that Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King came out the way they did in the first place because of his stance on storytelling with Mario and how gameplay should be handled, and it seems like this now is him backpedaling because of those other three games not doing as well as he would have hoped directly because of his management of them.
If you are referring to Sticker Star and afterwards, Miyamoto was primarily hands off on those games only making suggestions. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on those games. I'd note the quote about him saying it wasn't fun was in reference to the sticker mechanic and gameplay of Sticker Star, something many fans say is not fun. This suggestion to change the mechanics and gameplay of Sticker Star Intelligent Systems didn't listen to.
Now I wonder whether the part of the story where someone tries to appeal to an evil overlord hiding in the skin of an ally and gets wrecked was inspired by the development process...
@@Eris1987 he did not approve Rosalinas story. Rosalinas story had to be snuck into the game in Galaxy 1. I can only imagine how Zelda came to be. Though back in the day that stuff was still satisfying. Like Majoras Mask btw, which had the same guy involved, I believe, who made Rosalinas story.
@@RikThunder33 Yoshiaki Koizumi once said "When I presented it to him Mr. Miyamoto said 'are you telling me that you worked on this late at night when nobody was around so that they wouldn't find out about it.' And I said "yes it was important to me.'" Miyamoto once approved a storybook presented to him by Yoshiaki Koizumi Cranky Kong once said "Yoshiaki Koizumi had to sneak Rosalina's story into Super Mario Galaxy under Miyamoto's nose because Miyamoto hates story and ruined Paper Mario. Even though Miyamoto said he thinks Mario games doesn't need a story but Zelda games do, and never said Mario games shouldn't have a story."
Shigeru Miyamoto Never hated Paper Mario and the people that want him gone or dead are nothing but lousy ungrateful scumbags that always tend to harass or insult anyone for liking sticker, star or any other modern Paper Mario game they don't like. I don't like sticker star but I respect anyone who enjoys that game, Shigeru Miyamoto deserves a lot of respect and doesn't deserve the hate
And the one thing that made him greenlit the game was hilariously inconsequential. I mean the crowd scenes and attacks were cool, but I never thought too hard on them. Insane finding out that despite everything great in the game, if THAT wasn't there it would have never proceeded further in development.
Never forget that the Happy Mask Salesman from Majora's Mask was intended to be a depiction of how Miyamoto acts behind the scenes, with Link serving as the perspective of the Nintendo employee.
Shigeru Miyamoto Never caused The Paper Mario Series Downfall, it was Kensuke Tannabe who caused the series to not be the same anymore after SPM. There’s even Videos of a good TH-camr who explained that Miyamoto isn’t the one to be blamed.
Miyamoto is correct. The next paper mario game should have no text boxes, and be nothing but glueing and stapling paper together! Also nothing but mario and goombas.
That sounds amazing. I know everyone would just love that game. But forget goombas, those are so last season. We should have real world companions like crumpled paper, hole puncher, and a single staple. The enemies should be the evil rock, paper scissor trio that only Mario and his corporate team can defeat. Where's the actual Mario characters? Some may ask, but that doesn't matter. This is totally the evolution that the Paper Mario series needs.
As great as Miyamoto is… he’s kind of a tyrannical Boomer and his influence while impactful to his creations’ successes, also hold them back from being more. I don’t appreciate that he tells us that a good game is one that HE thinks we’ll enjoy bc he enjoys playing them one way. Bc ya know what the young kids really want and like to be in their Paper Mario games?? Actual paper mechanics!
I'm just a nobody so ofc no one has noticed, but I've been saying this to anyone who will listen for years and years now. Miyamoto did a lot for the game industry, but I'd argue he's been holding Nintendo and a bunch of its franchises back for the past couple of decades.
@@Scerttle Nintendo works on consoles that run behind the competition literally and figuratively as a business strategy… they’ve literally admitted this.
That we're going back to it after Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King which had much more direct control from Miyamoto shows that those games did not do as well as he would have hoped.
I'd note several of those quotes were about Sticker Star, Miyamoto was calling the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay boring and suggested they change it. A suggestion Intelligent Systems ignored and thus players of the game repeated what Miyamoto said. Miyamoto also approved TTYD in the end.
It’s certainly strange that those scenes with a hundred sprites on screen at a time is what did it, cuz like… yeah it’s cool that they can render that many characters on screen at a time I guess, but it’s certainly *FAR* from what I think of when asked what I like most about TTYD. Hell, it’s not what I think of for literally any game, including Pikmin lmao. It certainly is what *allows* Pikmin to function as a game, but it’s the real-time strategy of Pikmin that makes it an actually worthwhile experience. Same goes for TTYD’s RPG elements.
As someone who is an avid fan of the first 3 games, and despises Sticker Star, I don’t think this is entirely Miyamoto’s fault. While he did have issues with that 3DS Paper Mario and told the team it was too much like TTYD, the director of the series, Kensuke Tanabe, was the one steering the ship. He took Miyamoto’s advice, twisted it to the point where he took a bunch of shortcuts and that led to Sticker Star being released. Miyamoto actually didn’t like Sticker Star either when the game was shown to him, he said it was incredibly boring (which I think many can agree on). That time Tanabe said in an interview that Miyamoto got angry with him, I could be mistaken on this but I heard Miyamoto got angry over how he handled Bowser in Sticker Star, in which he gave Bowser zero dialogue and no personality at all. Tanabe was never told to remove all the RPG elements from the game, nor was he told to scrub it of any and all originality. I don’t want to come off like I’m defending Miyamoto, but I don’t think what happened to Paper Mario falls entirely on him, especially when Tanabe had as much creative control as he did, yet chose to take the games in such a bland direction. Either way though, TTYD’s remake is gorgeous and I love it so much. It’s a dream come true
All evidence points to Miyamoto being at least as much at fault as Tanabe. Tanabe took a concept (That we never got to play btw) which in Miyamoto's words were "too much like TTYD". But we know that to Miyamoto, he played one RPG, so he has played them all. Miyamoto also demanded that Tanabe focus on the paper mechanics over anything else for Sticker Star's development. Also, while Miyamoto did call the final version "boring" he also encouraged Tanabe to go down that road and also approved it for launch despite calling it "boring" so it wasn't that bad for Miyamoto. It probably went something like this 1. TTYD3DS was never going to pass Miyamoto because he hates RPG's, so he sent it back to the drawing board and gave Tanabe his "helpful advice" which Tanabe took far too literal and then Miyamoto saw that Tanabe followed all of the advice and wanted to push the game anyway and approved Sticker Star. Unfortunately, it is impossible to understand the culture of "soft control" of Intelligent Studios or how much Tanabe revering Miyamoto spoiled the game. There are conflicting sources on that whole approval process, and it does seem all but certain that one project will have entirely different quality controls compared to another. The fact that Paper Mario was sterilized to within an inch of its life shows that Nintendo and very likely Miyamoto himself wanted Paper Mario to reflect the NEW SMB series since they were all green lit and always reinvented the wheel which is EXACTLY what Miyamoto demands in Nintendo games. I am certain that Miyamoto is not alone in his obsession with making every single game unique, heck, I am certain that Tanabe is Miyamoto's right-hand man in that obsession, but Miyamoto is most certainly at the head of the problem. I am always of the opinion that these gaming interviews are more like micro insights, so I take what is said and amplify the personalities and ego as much as possible. It is also likely that while Miyamoto did not step in to Intelligent Systems much that he DID talk to Tanabe personally and maybe did so a LOT so while Miyamoto was only an advisor on paper, that Tanabe being the Miyamoto fanboy he admits to being, that he was effectively little more than a puppet while Miyamoto was the "real" director. This is speculation on my part, but it does fit the chain of confirmed events of Sticker Star. It is also possible that Tanabe is just not a good director. Reports I have seen say that Tanabe is a "My way or highway" type of director except when Miyamoto is involved. All could be true here.
Intelligent Systems chose not to change the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay, Intelligent Systems indeed had full creative control, Miyamoto was just making suggestions, and the creative team at Intelligent Systems is a different one than the one that made PM64-SPM.
We're in interesting times to say the least. Something that I thought of after just beating TTYD yesterday was that they actually created a new character in the form of Battle Master. Yes he's a Toad but at the very least not STICKER STAR levels of bland Toad. Wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo announces a remake of the original Paper Mario this June during the direct.
I respect Miyamoto a lot, but he needs to stop getting involved with Mario RPGs - he's actively making them worse. Hopefully Nintendo as a whole will get the idea that a majority of the fanbase prefers the original trilogy over the Sticker Star formula, where games respect your time as a player.
He was only a step in the process that created Sticker Star. It originally was very close to Thousand Year Door. Miyamoto reminded them to evolve the series as they made the new entry, and Tanabe took it as an excuse to drop the entire formula. Miyamoto actually came back to test the sticker system beta and found that one boring.
@@amandaslough125It’s true, but Miyamoto also said “it’s fine without a story, so does it really need one?” While it’s good to push things forward, he isn’t blameless here either. He’s not the sole cause tho.
@@FedoraKirb Yes, but there is a point in there: you can justify any form of gameplay with good writing. Good writing doesn't save terrible gameplay though. So what's the point of having a story then? It's to enhance the gameplay. He doesn't hate story, he just doesn't focus on it. He's very much less the culprit here, just the catalyst. Tanabe is the one who decided to ask "does an rpg need rpg elements?" And was inspired by Tingle's Rupeeland, of all things, to make the sticker and coin system.
@@amandaslough125 Oh I agree that he doesn’t hate stories (I have a big comment on this video about that). But that wording did have some problems. He’s not blameless, but he’s not the main culprit.
TL;DR: Based on these quotes and anecdotes, Miyamoto doesn’t seem to “hate” stories, he’s just finds gameplay more important. 3:063:29 I feel like people are going to take the quotes in this video out of context/miss the big picture and come to the conclusion that he “hates” stories in games. What he’s saying here is that he feels that a game’s given narrative and turn-based combat don’t contribute to the feel of the character actions you can take nearly as much as elements like controls or sound design does, and as much as I like video game stories and feel they can enhance an overall experience, I have to agree here. Even when narrative gives context to your actions that emotionally charges them, they don’t affect the feedback that you get from an action in the same way, like, screen shake does for example. This would explain why the two-screen gimmick was enough to justify Star Fox Zero’s existence despite having the exact same story as the original Star Fox for the third time, as well as his _insistence_ that people would get used to the controls; it made for a brand new game feel (even if it was a worse one for most people), and would provide that skill growth he’s talking about all over again. It’s the mindset that birthed the infamous “it’s fine without a story, so does it really need one?” (which Tanabe seemed to misinterpret as “take out the story without adding interesting gameplay.”) It’s why the most F-Zero has gotten in 20 years is a battle royale re-imagining of the first game with no given narrative. It’s why Miyamoto’s “storytelling series” uses the same plot formula for most mainline games. Hecc, based on the story of getting TTYD approved, I wouldn’t be surprised if the team changing the formula for Super Paper Mario was done preemptively with Miyamoto in mind, since the game started development on the GameCube and they had already used the crowd scenes gimmick in TTYD. To him, using the same gameplay is boring even if there’s a new story, but using the same story is fine as long as there’s new gameplay. None of this means he “hates” stories. He’s not going out of his way to destroy stories in games; the stories that Yoichi Koizumi “snuck under Miyamoto’s nose” in Link’s Awakening and Super Mario Galaxy might have been DEVELOPED without Miyamoto’s knowledge or input, but he still allowed them in the final game. Miyamoto, at least based on the quotes in this video, just feels stories don’t contribute much to what makes games fun compared to gameplay elements, and wants developers to focus on that more. And while I GREATLY disagree with that stance, as a designer I can respect his philosophy of game feel above all else. Not everything can be priority numero uno, and different designers having different philosophies is how we get a diverse landscape of games. HOWEVER, even if I respect it as a _designer,_ I’m still disappointed as a _player,_ because this philosophy has both directly and indirectly harmed or restricted what I (and many others) like about them.
Fun Fact: the only reason this game was made is because Miyamoto wanted a flight game that can viewed at multiple angles for the sake of (spectacle). However it takes away accessibility, meaning the zoomed out camera makes it difficult to time. This is why we have first person mode. Thankfully there's a minus button if you can't use the two screens, In addition to training mode.
If you take everything at face value, sure, but there is a lot more at play when you look at the patterns that come from the negative stories about his process. I wont dive into all the negatives here, but there is enough to paint that exact picture that he hates story and one needs to overcome that with some sort of mechanical spectacle to get his approval. Miyamoto is not an idiot, and has been around since the revival of the industry, if we dont just fully credit the revival on his vision and put him on a pedestal he no longer needs to earn, so he knows how to twist his words to get his way, regardless of how unreasonable the logic behind the words is. M:"I dont hate stories, i just hate how stories are passive and require my active attention to read when i could be actively doing something instead." fans:"so... you hate stories: because that is the entire point of them." M:"well... yes, but you wont ever hear me admit to that because i know how unreasonable it is, and it would force me to reflect on my bias instead of blindly acting on it." I am not working directly with Miyamoto, and cannot speak on the exact collaborative process involved with getting his approval, but take a closer look at what this story is saying: He grew board of the game because he had to read it, and it took solving the problem he was actively working on for his own project to get approval. Horde scenes doesnt change TTYD in any way except spectacle, which is the primary function a story provides. It wasnt a gameplay change that got his approval, but a minor story change, as that is all the horde scenes do. And this is just dissecting this single story time without considering others that corroborate it. Just as the most obvious myth- even if the scale was blown out of proportion, it still reveals a truth alongside all the similar stories- Rosalina's story time in Mario Galaxy 1 was "snuck" into the final product, and it can be directly traced to be the reason Rosalina became an instant icon in the mario canon enough to reappear (even when it makes very little sense to like in 3D world). Heck, one of Nintendo's biggest flaws people comment on is the reliance on gimmicks to sell consoles, most of which dont really hold up and the few that do fail to regularly influence long-term economic growth or development of tech, and needing to "bribe" Miyamoto with a mechanical "newness" could very well be the primary reason for the trend. Look, i dont hate Miyamoto, but as you yourself admit, his biases directly harm the potential of their games and even tech if my previous assertion holds any weight. Maybe it is wishful thinking, maybe it is appearances, or maybe there is actual progress being made, but it does at least feel like the switch is leading in the right direction and creating a paradigm shift internally in nintendo itself. The switch's main "gimmick" was already tested on the wii u and we are getting much more fan-pleasing content like a ttyd remake that isnt hampered down by needing to offer something brand new mechanically. Heck, i dont want to admit it, but the paradigm shift even showed itself in early hardware issues like joycon drift and how it didnt quite live up to the same "nintendo quality" that let a game boy survive a fire.
@@cullenlatham2366 People say Miyamoto killed the Starfox franchise and that the series would be better without him. Wrong, the truth is he was running out of ideas for the series, and when Zero was finished that was it. Arcade shooters are alot harder to evolve than people think.
@@orangeslash1667 yeah, but i directly avoided talking about star fox for lack of knowledge on the subject. Star fox is not the only nintendo franchise that fails in the story department, and the only real way to improve an arcade shooter is to give a fresh or evolving story every time. Did Miyamoto ruin the franchise? i have no point of reference, but i would say no. Did his biases get in the way of keeping the series fresh? Again, based off the discourse, yes. Nintendo and Story are almost complete opposites, and the ones that do have actual stories come from third parties or studios under the publishing umbrella of nintendo (like xenoblade). Does the switch show a paradigm shift in creating stories? No. Does it show that nintendo is more willing to gamble on a good story? Maybe.
@@cullenlatham2366 I’m not just taking the words at face value, though. I’m contextualizing them with his actions. You’re putting words into his mouth. Miyamoto did not say anything about hating active reading part, at least not in this video. “I won’t dive into all the negatives” no please do. If you want to make claims about someone you don’t know, you need evidence. Miyamoto’s words indicate a philosophy of _game feel first,_ one that’s directly in line with nearly every single game he’s had a hand in. It’s why Mario is consistently one of the most fun platformer characters to _control:_ Miyamoto’s trained his team to focus on the feel of play first. Maybe he really is trying to “twist his words” to make his alleged hatred of stories sound more benign. But look at his _actions._ To me, the examples I listed-StarFox, F-Zero, Paper Mario, Zelda-indicate that story is a _lower priority,_ or at worst suggest _indifference_ more than hatred. Star-Fox didn’t have to have a story with Miyamoto at the helm. And we’ve seen how stubborn Miyamoto can be, so if he really HATED stories as people said, Star Fox would just be a bunch of levels with no connecting story, a la Galaga. And if he hated stories, we wouldn’t have Zelda. Pikmin is his baby, even moreso than Mario, and to my understand that series has a surprising amount of world-building. Even the crowd scenes in TTYD contribute to game _feel,_ even if they have little impact on _what_ you do. I wouldn’t hinge a new game off of it alone, but based on the games that Miyamoto has worked on, it wouldn’t totally line up. You and I don’t know Miyamoto. We don’t know what’s going on inside his head. The only thing we can use to look behind his words are his actions.
"the moral of the story sometimes to collaborate with others..." "You should manipulate the person by finding a minor concession thats special to them" "Its worth finding ways to compromise " "Oh"
I believe that many comments under this videos are too harsh on Miyamoto. The fact is that nintendo has released many good games since they are in the videogame business, and let's be honest without Miyamoto there wouldn't be a Paper Mario to begin with. Of course during the years bad decisions have also been made, and this is normal, nobody does everything right. What I disagree with the comments, ia that people think to know everything about the development process of Paper Mario based on "quotes" most likely taken out of context. People say things all the times, and often contradict themselves. Those quotes can give us at most a vague idea, but in reality we don't know anything about what happens in Nintendo since nobody was there to see.
Yes for example. The quote about it not being fun was Miyamoto saying Sticker Star's Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay was not fun, and suggesting Intelligent Systems change it. Intelligent Systems chose not to, and the players repeated what Miyamoto said when they played the game. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on Sticker Star and beyond. The team behind Sticker Star and Beyond is not the same one from PM64-SPM. He the quote of Miyamoto asking if it needed as story was again about Sticker Star, and a suggestion.
Huh!? What gives miyamoto the right to think his position is enough to meddle, despite his lack of experience in a specific genre (RPGs), with game development? The fact that he doesn't like the RPG system (and being vocal about it) should be enough to ask him to "shut up" and step aside. Some people actually enjoy other things, and the feeling of growing is something that the core of 3D Mario games do not provide (with all your movement abilities unlocked)! And that revelation @7:50 just shows me how much of a child miyamoto is. He probably thought of Pikmin when he was shown the "improvement" and got a hard-on. EDIT: Spot on! The "they had no idea how to do this" @5:50 is amusing today, seeing how TTYD is barely an improved version of the original game. Reiterating in almost every aspect, just polishing and adding on top of the already great Paper Mario 64. Game development at nintendo is not about compromising, but appealing to the whims of an overly-controlling person. I'm sure the death of the franchise of Paper Mario was caused by mr. genius himself. Sometimes, I can't wait for him to NOT be at Nintendo any more.
I lost a lot of respect for Miyamoto after I heard about the trouble he gave Paper Mario back in the day. Great video. You have a good voice for narration, and enunciate things well.
This story kind of portrays a different feel than what the title actually implies. I don't think Miyamoto was necessarily against the idea of Paper Mario simply by being an RPG, but rather that It comes off as if Intelligent Systems wanted to make a basic turn-based RPG that at most, kept the concepts from 64 and RPG, and Miyamoto wanted the game to innovate, which led to the crowd system, the stylish moves and the many models that were able to be on screen. Hearing this, it mostly comes off as the same problem Miyamoto has with alot of games, where a game cannot simply be good, It has to bring something new and try to re-invent the wheel every time. Only that he's a lot more strict with RPGs.
It does seem like he was stuck on the paper idea though. Whereas something like the Mario & Luigi series could come up with totally new gimmicks every game, it seems like the success of Paper Mario specifically depended on their ability to iterate on the paper concept. And you can actually see this with later Paper Mario titles heavily focusing on arts and crafts concepts.
@@wrmsnicketto be fair, the name “paper Mario” creates heavy incentive to stick to at least some type of paper theme, otherwise the name makes no sense. Meanwhile, the name “Mario and Luigi” can be applied to literally anything involving the Mario Bros.
I mean honestly I agree with him that games should strive to innovate. It’s my problem with most Sony sequels like Spider-Man 2, they do very little to enhance the formula from the previous game and it feels more like it’s the first game again but with a new story.
@@garf752 And i wouldn't be surprised if that's how he saw TTYD. Mario RPG? It's the first attempt to something new. Paper Mario 64? Having an RPG with a unique aesthetic that separated from RPG. TTYD pushed the limits of the Gamecube with all the renders takes to the paper aesthetic, but if you think about it, it's an enhanced take on 64 and in some areas, flat out mirrors it, so the idea of "But this story goes deeper and more serious" would probably make him think "So? We make games".
I mean I don’t blame him, most games do need to innovate because to many are very stale and either borrow to much from other games or are a worse copy cat of another game. Now I’m not saying every game in a series needs to be wacky but he kinda has a point. Building off what made one game good rarely works because a sequel that is just the original but better is hardly a good sequel. You need to justify a sequel hence innovating is good because it creates a better justification for a sequel. Now that doesn’t mean the sequel needs to be a separate genre or fundamentally change the game to the point it barely resembles the original. But it’s good to innovate and focus on different aspects of the series because you get more variety and flavor.
His quote about swords sounding more powerful as they level up in a game is very interesting. It explains why each of the 4 different sword levels in Link to the Past have different SFX for each swing.
I just spent the last ten minutes listening to the broken audio version and was so scared that I had to go spend on another pair of headphones when the set I’m currently using was just purchased two weeks ago
Howard Phillips way back when he was more or less in charge of Nintendo of America's selection of NES titles, did the same thing to Miyamoto when he was asked to play-test the original Super Mario Bros. 2 to gauge how American audiences would like it. He was reportedly "shocked" Miyamoto would make a game that felt so unoriginal compared to the first and so unfairly punishingly difficult. Nintendo of Japan went back to a game they'd just released to promote a fair and retooled it as a Mario game, as most here probably already know. From then on, new Mario games were rarely ever just a reskin of the previous Mario game. I wonder if that dressing down from Howard Phillips (my personal favorite "lead" of the American branch... never really cared for Reggie) left a lasting impression on Miyamoto? Thing is, while I certainly appreciate Miyamoto's "light on story, heavy on gameplay" approach, sometimes I think his focus on that can itself be an obstacle. For a game like a turn based RPG where you're going through the same enemy encounters many times over, it kind of NEEDS a story to keep someone moving through dungeons and exploring. It's a major part of those experiences. Imagine Baldur's Gate without all the lore and characters and themes and you have a rather dull slog through fighting wave after wave of gnolls forever. You know, Gauntlet. The only saving grace for Gauntlet is the multiplayer, which MAKES those games. Wizard destroyed the food. Heck, I enjoyed what he provided back in the older Zelda titles, so clearly he's not COMPLETELY anti-story. Come to think of it, Romero has a similar attitude, treating story in his shooty games as something that's like a story in "porn, people expect it, but it isn't important".... Which explains whatever was going on in Daikatana SO much. At least when Miyamoto goes light on story, there's enough threads there like in Link to the Past that we can stitch together a compelling narrative. I recall there was a struggle to go deeper with a story like in Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, too. I'm not saying Miyamoto's approach is wrong, just that he should probably go easier on other teams with their own leads. Maybe a nudge if the cutscenes get too obnoxiously long or if the story directly makes the act of playing the game unfun (like if a large chunk of Paper Mario just became a walking simulator to the next point to hit "A" on), but let them cook.
Despite the later fate of the series, I think Thousand Year Door became a better game by virtue of this process, but it's kinda funny how the most Pikmin-like chapter of TTYD is generally the least popular.
The thing is, mario rpgs get rid of being "tied up" and stuck, with things like action commands and badges which allow more skilful players to take harder challenges earlier on. I mean stylish moves are literally the definition of doing something to a rhythm
knowing that the concept of crowds singlehandedly greenlit the game can really be felt, like the battle scenes would definitely not have a crowd in it if that wasnt the case
Before I started the video, I had a hunch that Miyamoto would like the audience mechanic in battles and that would make him approve the project, since that's the big difference between PM64 and PMTTYD (aside from the story). And I guess I was kinda right (?)
I mean hey, with twice or three times more hype, it'd be cool to see Super remastered as well. Sure not even one percent liked the story and Myamoto said that Paper Mario doesn't need one but out of all of them, it's the best selling one. We need a remaster for Super Paper Mario!
I used to like Miyamoto, but after hearing he's the reason Nintendo barely touches stories post-Gamecube I've come to dislike him quite a bit. I don't know why some people say he had nothing to do with it when the developers have said it.
It's because Miyamoto suggested Sticker Star didn't need a story, not demanded it. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on Sticker Star and Beyond. The Intelligent Systems team behind PM64-SPM is not the same one post Sticker Star. In addition the quote about Miyamoto thinking something wasn't fun was in reference to the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay of Sticker Star, and he was suggesting they change it. Intelligent Systems chose not to change it.
2:55 it’s funny to me that Miyomoto wanted to insist that Legend of Zelda wasn’t really an RPG… despite also being on the record describing the skill progression of RPGs in a way that’s even more like Legend of Zelda than some other RPGs as his reasoning for not liking them. Incidentally, his description of what he doesn’t like about RPGs also sounds like the core gameplay philosophy of the Metroid series, basically helping spawning a genre of what we call Metroidvania… to be fair, not really RPGs, though many RPGs have such elements to their exploration too, like Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi games. But maybe his reluctance toward numbers and stats ended up making the earlier Paper Mario games, and the Mario and Luigi games better while those factors were still at play. Ultimately, those games truly made the grind for those better stats a way to simply make the game easier. It’s especially true with the Mario and Luigi series, I think. These games make you feel more powerful as much with how you get better at the game (dodging or blocking more consistently, timing button presses for optimal damage,) that you actually *feel* more powerful because of that, even more so than the “higher numbers” on the screen.
Man, Miyamoto is a legend, but sometimes it feels like his priorities are so frustratingly out of place. Ah well, It seems he is stepping back more and more these days and letting others lead the way as he gets older. Hopefully means that we never see another Sticker Star situation ever again
It's genuinely weird how much of a pedestal people put the guy on, nobody else gets this kind of treatment in the industry. He's had a couple great ideas and he's held the industry back for decades. "Legend" feels like very much the wrong word.
@@Electric0eye Considering RPG's struggled to sell well back then, I can understand Miyamoto's mindset. It's like he felt turn based RPG's needed more spectacle to appeal to Western gamers. A good example is Final Fantasy 7, and it's impressive animations.
TTYD's crowd scenes and audience/appeal system are charming and heighten the game, but they are absolutely NOT necessary for TTYD to be a masterpiece. It is sad they had to appeal to one person's obsessive fixation - no matter how legendary that person might be - in order to get this approved. Engaging non-generic characters, clever writing, diverse scenarios...and less important to me, but yes, an interesting RPG battle system with a clever badge mechanic...are the heart of why TTYD is so amazing. But I think the game could have NO battles and only be slightly diminished by it, because everything else is so strong. The fun battles are the icing on the cake. And it certainly doesn't need crowds to be great. And, though not discussed in this vid, this sort of obstinance from the suits at Nintendo (not pointing fingers specifically at Miyamoto, since we dont know for sure, but...) almost certainly why we have not gotten a TTYD sequel to this day, 20 years later.
Miyamoto is no longer making games. He announced this last year when they did Mario movie. He is now a representative for Mario to the universe and not even producing anymore
Miyamoto's insistence on every new game in a franchise having some forced novelty is what really irritates me. Sometimes gamers just want more of the same. Gimme a new Paper Mario that plays exactly the same as TTYD with new characters and story, and I'm happy. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time. And yet he considers something as trivial as having 100 characters on screen at the same time as novel enough to greenlight a game? I mean, I'm glad it WAS greenlit, but what a...non-novel reason.
Yeah...I respect Miyamoto a bunch for his contributions for Nintendo but Intelligent Systems really should not have taken his advice to heart just because he's a popular/successful dude when they were working on the modern entries after Super Paper Mario especially since he doesn't even like RPGS's nor does he have experience with them. Look at how Sticker Star came out when they followed his advice. No offense to those who like that entry or hold nostalgia for it as well. Granted I've heard pleasant stuff from the fans for Color Splash and especially for Origami King but they certainly would have been stronger entries if not for those annoying restrictions.
The problem is that Nintendo wouldn't have given them the money (and the right to use Mario) to develop the games without Miyamoto's approval. It's not "just because Miyamoto is a popular dude", he's the one calling the shots. Unfortunately.
@@Tiwill Which is strange because I heard from an interview somewhere that intelligent Systems has full creative freedom for this series so that seems a little sus to me. Also I probably should of worded it better. But what I mean he's popular I mean he's a well respected developer for Nintendo and because he's well respected by every one and Nintendo so no one has the courage do deny his requests even if his advice is flawed they just take what he says almost like there yes men. It's somewhat of a similar issue with what happened with the Star Wars prequals with no one questioning George Lucas's story telling or writing even when there's blatant issues with it simply because of his past success granted the modern entries after George left Star Wars also have issues as well but that's going off topic. it's a similar thing with Miyamoto with the Paper Mario series but like I said he doesn't really get RPG's and he's also use to the mainline entries which don't rely on stories and because of there success he assumes it will also work for the RPG series Paper Mario as well at least I think that's what went wrong with the modern entries that and also Tanabe greatly looks up to Miyamoto which is not a bad thing to look up to your idol but even idol's can make flaws in there judgement there human after all. And lastly I still respect Miyamoto even if a don't like some of his old school boomer behavior he has sometimes. Same with George for creating Star Wars as well.
@@seasonembrace3624 From what I understand, because Miyamoto still works at Nintendo and Mario is his creation, he gets the final say on what people can do with our favorite italian plumber. So everything Mario is involved with needs to get manually approved by him. He basically supervises the whole Mario brand. If IntSys has full creative freedom over Paper Mario, it's probably with an asterisk, in the sense that Miyamoto can still veto anything since Mario is his baby.
I think it's easy to bash Miyamoto, because, well, it's often warranted. But I do think this is a time to play a strong devil's advocate. Although I deeply disagree with the fact that you have to start limited by stats and abilities is an inherently restrictive feeling to the player, I do agree that the concept of "fun" Miyamoto has can be incorporated into these kinds of games. When/if Miyamoto steps down from his work or gives up some power, I do hope he leaves a "gaming bible" of sorts for Nintendo developers to go back to. So if something seems like a good game but just isn't "fun," they can think, "What would Miyamoto say about this?' But not as a reason to go in a whole different direction but as advice and tips to keep core feelings throughout Nintendo games while being entirely different games. Like Splatoon.
what gaming bible? "don't bore players"? UNRIVALED GENIUS he has had some great specific game ideas but his philosophy is pretty simplistic and has no nuance
@@TurbopropPuppyMiyamoto and his team over the years has made some great games, it’s good to see what he thought when making them, in support, and against. It’s not about treating him like a god but from learning from him- both the successes and the mistakes. And I don’t really know if it’s simplistic- sure his general sayings of “gameplay first!!!” can be seen as extremely simple, but in certain interviews and for certain games, how he applies said simplistic philosophies can be pretty interesting and honestly kinda profound. Example was him suggesting Metroid Prime be first person instead of 3rd in lieu of making Samus easier and more immersive to control when Retro Studios were struggling. Its easy to pick out Miyamoto’s out of touchness after games release, but there is a real point he has- even here when he states his lack of preference for RPGs. My favorite genre are JRPGs and even I see his point and why RPGs can be a bit of a turn off to people.
@@Socioromanticism The reason is that Miyamoto was taught by the late Gunpei Yokoi, who was known for innovation and toys. Due to his tragic death, Miyamoto feels that he must become the next Yokoi by any means necessary. So Miyamoto focus in games is innovation rather than story.
it sounds like miyamoto just for some reason hates stories but if you just keep pressing him and ignoring his complaining, you can just go ahead anyways
For a whle now it feels like the paper mario franchise has been sabotaged from the inside... And yes i was aware of the interview and to me it's such a shame to clip the wings of such talented developers. We are talking about Intelligent Systems... These guys are Gods on their fields. They were able to create one of the best Mario Kart titles on an underpowered consoles, master of RPG mechanics and on their own right, really good story tellers and it feels so wrong to hear these stories about how a sacred cow at nintendo was trampling over their work, Myamoto struck gold with some of his games, then decided no one else should experience greatness, that how that reads to me. I remember when i saw the Star fox Zero showcase... It was like How can someone be so out of touch and staring back at us saying, ononononoo, this is what you want, i know better... It's not about being a boomer, millenial, Gen-Z it's about letting people craft the games they want to craft
Because he never did. Miyamoto hating OG Paper Mario and Stories is Disinformation at it’s absolute worst. The guy that approved and worked on Super Mario RPG, and produced all the Paper Mario Games up until Super Paper Mario, is apparently anti-Paper Mario (OG that is)? Watch SuperMarioT’s video on the subject.
There's a difference between feeling a story is "unnecessary" and being actively hostile to having one. It's almost like Miyamoto views "gameplay vs story" as this zero sum game where an engaging story will "detract" from the enjoyment of the gameplay rather than complement and build upon one another. Miyamoto was certainly one of the great innovators of his time for which we will be forever grateful, but he really does need to retire if this mindset and stubborn pride of his is quashing the next generation's ability to build upon his legacy.
Miyamoto has that late 80s and early 90s mindset where games should be "simple fun" and nothing else and also thinks that Mario shouldn't advance past princess peach being kidnapped by Bowser, every NPC being a generic toad, and there being no good goombas or koopas. I don't think he wanted to "ruin" paper Mario, that notion is quite absurd. Rather, he has an outdated philosophy and a rigid definition of how things should be. I guarantee you he told Risa Tabata to say that "there can only be one Mario RPG series" like Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario aren't very different types of games, because he probably agreed on only one RPG and likely thought more was too much. Even if I liked Origami King and thought it was a decent improvement over Color Splash, it has those same problems that held back the series for years, especially with no experience points. He also doesn't understand how RPGs work. "Stats and numbers" are supposed to be part of the strategy. Turn-based battles are supposed to be time-consuming for a reason. It means that the more time you invest into battle, the more you level up and become stronger, and this can actually make enemy encounters late in the game take less time. Without experience and leveling up, battles become pointless, like in Sticker Star. Plus, the point is that you play a "role" as these characters who you see develop and grow. Mario is more of a static character, but that could be to put the player in his shoes more easily. The story adds to games by making them feel more meaningful. The first Paper Mario has a basic plot, but unlike Sticker Star, has several unique characters, and we get to look into Bowser and his motivations. We see that he loves Peach genuinely, and doesn't just want the benefits of marrying a monarch. We also see his personality, seeing that he's rude, selfish, arrogant, and extremely immature, throwing constant temper tantrums when things don't go his way like a child. Peach gets to be useful by helping Mario by getting badges and information to help him. Sticker Star is like the original without that character, which feels more soulless. It also has bad gameplay, so it wasn't even fun. I also found it hypocritical that he seems to harp on innovation, when the NSMB series had 3 games that all feel the exact same, proving that this likely was a cover for his unfavourability towards storytelling. Of course, I will admit, he probably did think this and wasn't a fan of how the NSMB games turned out and so until Wonder, no new 2D Mario games were made, and that also may be why we never got a Galaxy 3, even if a lot of people wanted it. I will say Kensuke Tanabe does deserve the blame for the new direction of the series, but I argue he's just listening to Miyamoto's strict mandates. Miyamoto probably isn't saying anything because he wanted Tanabe to be blamed for the direction the series went in, since Tanabe is likely a yes-man who has the same out-of-touch philosophies about games. After 2020, Miyamoto was clearly revealed to be at fault, and so Tanabe isn't working on future titles for that reason. Miyamoto probably also realized that the mandates were a bad idea and decided to remove them as well. Probably the reason Nintendo went to Miyamoto is because Ryota Kawade left after Super Paper Mario, and so since there was no leader to plan or counter him, everyone just listened to Miyamoto if he didn't like something. I still love Miyamoto and what he has done for the gaming industry, but he has shown that his ideas are somewhat out of touch and stuck in the past and I feel like Mario can grow when less restrictions are there.
So no one still realized that its Miyamoto who's the obstacle of the game development yet if it wasn't for him developers won't be as creative for each game they make, you can find it annoying that you're work is not enough but if the game still the same as the last prequel or series then it wouldn't be as iconic and distinction of each game make that you won't have to worry going back to old game just because it wasn't as best as the current new one. What I seen in Nintendo games is that it made you play games back to back because both game may the same but entirely different play.
its fine without a story, indeed, but "fine" is not the same as great, im surprised to hear that Miyamoto willingly avoids going to the extra mile needed for his games to reach their full potential represented by a good story telling
He says Zelda needs a story, and thought as in past tense Mario doesn't need one. He made Pikmin and worked on it. He did approve things like Rosalina's Storybook.
The thing to consider about Miyamoto is that no matter your opinions of him, he's a harsh guy with a lot of seniority who'll say what's on his mind and expects others to follow in suit. A lot of the reason why the Mario brand has been feeling innovative with itself is because Miyamoto has been too busy with producing multiple movies in collaboration with Hollywood folk and leaving Mario and Zelda to the producers in charge. I feel that Nintendo fans appreciate Miyamoto being Miyamoto for Hollywood because his stern hand guarantees that Hollywood would be forced to compromise with him at worst or at best let him have his way with how he wants the films to go
No that was Intelligent Systems doing, Miyamoto merely suggested Sticker Star didn't need a story. Also the quote about something being boring was Miyamoto calling Sticker Star' mechanics and gameplay not fun, suggesting Intelligent Systems change it, and Intelligent Systems ignoring his suggestion since they did have full creative control and freedom.
Stuff like this makes me hate Miyamoto. Ever since he said Mario doesn't need a story I wish he'd retire. My favorite Mario games have stories... All the RPGs, Sunshine, Galaxy, Odyssey.
Hello, love your content! Could you make a video about “Marvel vs Capcom Collection Arcade Classics”? Those games coming back was a dream come true for myself and many other fighting game fans. I’d like to use your video as a teaching tool to educate my friends. MvC coming back is a HUGE deal.
Well it's ok that he doesn't like them but he probably shouldn't have any responsibility for such a franchise in that case because he doesn't understand the genra. He is right that a game should first and foremost feel good to play like Celeste do but having a good story will only highten the experience (like Celeste have).
Miyamoto suggested the they didn't need a story, but didn't say they had not do a story. I'd not Miyamoto was calling the Sticker Mechanic and gameplay of Sticker Star boring, something people who played the game also said was boring and not fun. I'd also note the team behind PM64, TTYD, and Super Paper Mario was a different team than the one behind.
Miyamoto deserves a lot of credit for what he's done. However, he's also a high and mighty curmudgeon for no reason and due to Japanese social politics his dislike of things weighs heavily on the whole company. Why does this man hate stories and RPGs so much? I genuinely dont understand it. If he wasnt so old id guess he had a bad experience with RPGs as a child and never grew out of the resulting dislike, but they didnt EXIST when he was a child
Ah yes, the crowd scenes, that's what keeps me playing! Never mind the bold and bizarre story, the characters, or the endlessly customizable badge system. No, the reason I keep playing TTYD is because I hold on to the hope that I might see 1000 identical things at once.../sarcasm I'm sure Miyamoto contributed great insights into games like Mario and Zelda, but keep that man away from any decision making on RPGs.
I like to hate on miyamoto for what he did with the series but i gotta appreciate how his reluctance to approve ttyd resulted in one of the greatest RPGs ever. The mandates were an absolute disaster, but pushing a team to do better can do wonderful things
Shigeru Miyamoto Is the reason Paper Mario left its roots hence why Sticker Star was created onward, also wants devs to try new things but can't seems to do that with the star fox franchise
@@Woodenspade Miyamoto said that he has no interesting in make a new Starfox unless he can come up with a new gameplay idea for it. In other words he feels that SF 64 is so good he can't top it.
I want to like Miyamoto, he's a gaming legend no matter what anyone says. But he hates and consistently prevents my favorite game genre from being created by my favorite company. It's hard not to resent him
"It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" feels like scraping the icing off of a cake.
The best video GAMES have a story that takes its queues from GAMEPLAY instead of the other way around. Pac-Man eats ghosts because his simple body shape has only one animation, for eating pellets and bonus fruit. Doomguy kills demons because people don't like killing things that are morally ambiguous, but something defined by its evil clears everyone's conscience. (Even Nazis gained some sympathy in Wolfenstein because people still felt bad they were killing people indiscriminately). Sonic is fast to show off the processing speed of the Sega Genesis and curls into a ball to simplify attack animations and get more performance out of the console. Gordon Freeman is a silent protsgonist because it breaks immersion to be at odds with the dialogue spoken in first person. Etc. Story gives a game a scenario to create context that should intuitively nudge the player towards the point of the game.
Xenoblade's gameplay basically comes down to "single player MMO for a home console." And yet fans of the series can't shut up about the story, characters, themes... pretty much everything that has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay.
Which would you rather play: a game that ends with you saying "that was fun", or one that literally ends with you in tears? (I know I'd take the second every time.)
@@angeldude101 The most played and replayed games, by the numbers, are games like Mario Kart, Smash Bros, and Pokemon. Story games are typically played once and replayed rarely. Sony has been struggling with this for several years.
@@WarningStrangerDanger ....okay?
@Mcl_Blue These games that stand the test of time in the pantheon of humanity's greatest achievements in game development, from Minecraft, to Tetris, to StarCraft are games that put gameplay first. Stories that only games can tell are ones that the player generates by playing.
Miyamoto has always hated stories and story-telling, and yet, somehow, those around him managed to get some amazing stories in there despite him.
Explains why the Mario and Wario Land series where allowed to experiment and be different
I remember stuff saying he really didn't like the Mario galaxy developers literally sneaking in the Rosalina storybook sections. Considering how Galaxy 2 ended up and treated her, I believed it.
most successes in history are due to the people who actually worked on them, not the people who put themselves in charge or took all the credit, yeah
And yet he also somehow advocates for a consistent vision for the Zelda series, even creating the connections for the inital parts of the timeline itself, and says in an early 00s interview that doing otherwise would make fans feel betrayed.
@@meloelebi1996 And the galaxy/TTYD games are some of the most beloved in the mario franchise... Huh.
Suddenly the fact that nearly every Nintendo game has a new gimmick makes a lot of sense.
It's also why they haven't made a new Fzero. Because they can't come up with a new "gimmick"🤦
@@jacealbine There's a racing game called Aero GPX thats like F-zero, but it's not ready yet.
@jacealbine I firmly believe that the next F-Zero game we will get will be to show off a console that can run it over 60Hz. A 120Hz or 144Hz OLED screen is common in phones, and if they could show off how smoothly you could see the sense of speed (low FPS causes more motion sickness and impairs the ability to follow movement) then we would see the next F-Zero. Every F-Zero game has been as high FPS as each console could handle.
@@WarningStrangerDanger Problem is that Nintendo would have to find a third party company to make a new one since Sega made GX.
To be fair, the “every game has a new gimmick” has worked to Nintendo’s benefit far more often than to their detriment
Where was Miyamoto's desire for innovation during the development of the New Super Mario Bros. series?
In the very first New Super Mario Bros. game. That one on the DS actually did have a decent amount of creative choices... which went absent in later installments. It's so fortunate the swagger's back with Wonder.
Thing is, while I certainly appreciate Miyamoto's "light on story, heavy on gameplay" approach, sometimes I think his focus on that can itself be an obstacle. For a game like a turn based RPG where you're going through the same enemy encounters many times over, it kind of NEEDS a story to keep someone moving through dungeons and exploring. It's a major part of those experiences. Imagine Baldur's Gate without all the lore and characters and themes and you have a rather dull slog through fighting wave after wave of gnolls forever. You know, Gauntlet. The only saving grace for Gauntlet is the multiplayer, which MAKES those games. Wizard destroyed the food.
Heck, I enjoyed what he provided back in the older Zelda titles, so clearly he's not COMPLETELY anti-story. Come to think of it, Romero has a similar attitude, treating story in his shooty games as something that's like a story in "porn, people expect it, but it isn't important".... Which explains whatever was going on in Daikatana SO much. At least when Miyamoto goes light on story, there's enough threads there like in Link to the Past that we can stitch together a compelling narrative. I recall there was a struggle to go deeper with a story like in Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, too.
I'm not saying Miyamoto's approach is wrong, just that he should probably go easier on other teams with their own leads. Maybe a nudge if the cutscenes get too obnoxiously long or if the story directly makes the act of playing the game unfun (like if a large chunk of Paper Mario just became a walking simulator to the next point to hit "A" on), but let them cook.
Well.. Dark Jaguar already said the BIG answer, though part of me would be tempted to say that taking a new spin on the original 2D platforming formula with what even Was the "NEW Super Mario Bros.", completely disconnected from the original 3 super marioses and Super by going back to their roots to try something they hadn't in years is its own kind of innovation.
It’s innovation ‘cause nothing else so unoriginal has ever been made :)
He didn’t direct any of those, so
“Miyamoto-San, we drastically increased the number of characters that can appear on screen!”
“Excellent! I love seeing small numbers become large numbers! I wonder if there’s a game genre that could give me that same feeling.”
Feels like that scene where SpongeBob is trying to convince Squidward why he should get a job using hand puppets
I can't believe we could have gotten good Paper Mario games if they just dangled keys next to the narrative storytelling for Miyamoto.
Okay, the image of the devs dangling keys in front of Miyamoto to win his approval literally made me chuckle 🤭😂
He's the reason that Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King came out the way they did in the first place because of his stance on storytelling with Mario and how gameplay should be handled, and it seems like this now is him backpedaling because of those other three games not doing as well as he would have hoped directly because of his management of them.
If you are referring to Sticker Star and afterwards, Miyamoto was primarily hands off on those games only making suggestions. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on those games. I'd note the quote about him saying it wasn't fun was in reference to the sticker mechanic and gameplay of Sticker Star, something many fans say is not fun. This suggestion to change the mechanics and gameplay of Sticker Star Intelligent Systems didn't listen to.
You mean BETTER Paper Mario games, right?
Now I wonder whether the part of the story where someone tries to appeal to an evil overlord hiding in the skin of an ally and gets wrecked was inspired by the development process...
probably not. I doubt the team could even begin to tell Miyamoto any story details with him being bored.
@@RikThunder33 Like when he approved Rosalina's Story. Or said Zelda games should have story.
@@Eris1987 he did not approve Rosalinas story. Rosalinas story had to be snuck into the game in Galaxy 1. I can only imagine how Zelda came to be. Though back in the day that stuff was still satisfying. Like Majoras Mask btw, which had the same guy involved, I believe, who made Rosalinas story.
@@RikThunder33 Yoshiaki Koizumi once said "When I presented it to him Mr. Miyamoto said 'are you telling me that you worked on this late at night when nobody was around so that they wouldn't find out about it.' And I said "yes it was important to me.'"
Miyamoto once approved a storybook presented to him by Yoshiaki Koizumi
Cranky Kong once said "Yoshiaki Koizumi had to sneak Rosalina's story into Super Mario Galaxy under Miyamoto's nose because Miyamoto hates story and ruined Paper Mario. Even though Miyamoto said he thinks Mario games doesn't need a story but Zelda games do, and never said Mario games shouldn't have a story."
@@Eris1987 cranky Kong?! Ok...you lost me on that last part. But I think the point still stands.
Miyamoto lived long enough to be the villain
The funny thing is he hasn't changed a single bit over the years, people are just starting to realize it.
Note, Miyamoto changed his view.
He was never the villain, The only real villains out there are the toxic ones that want him gone are dead
“Ever get that feeling of déjà vu?”
It's possible that I am bad at TH-cam... 😅
Tracer, right?
@@VideoGameStoryTimeEh no one's perfect honestly fits the theme of the video lol
One ear would've said this is new...
Shigeru Miyamoto Never hated Paper Mario and the people that want him gone or dead are nothing but lousy ungrateful scumbags that always tend to harass or insult anyone for liking sticker, star or any other modern Paper Mario game they don't like.
I don't like sticker star but I respect anyone who enjoys that game, Shigeru Miyamoto deserves a lot of respect and doesn't deserve the hate
Look, its the remaster
The irony is not lost on me 🤣
The industry has really been going fast these days.
So basically what I'm getting is that much of what makes TTYD great exists *despite* Miyamoto lmao
It’s sad too because despite his negligent feelings toward TTYD he still got all the credit for the amazing game it turned out to be.
And the one thing that made him greenlit the game was hilariously inconsequential. I mean the crowd scenes and attacks were cool, but I never thought too hard on them. Insane finding out that despite everything great in the game, if THAT wasn't there it would have never proceeded further in development.
This seems to be the case for every beloved Nintendo title except for the first few Marios and specifically just Ocarina for Zelda.
Never forget that the Happy Mask Salesman from Majora's Mask was intended to be a depiction of how Miyamoto acts behind the scenes, with Link serving as the perspective of the Nintendo employee.
Miyamoto doesn't like RPGs so no one else is allowed to like them either
Yeah… TOTALLY fair…
Makes me wonder how the original Mario RPG was approved
@@gooeydude574 Fun Fact: Miyamoto was the producer of Earthbound Beginnings. That series may have gotten him interested RPG's????
@@orangeslash1667 and yet he still hates them
Shigeru Miyamoto Never caused The Paper Mario Series Downfall, it was Kensuke Tannabe who caused the series to not be the same anymore after SPM.
There’s even Videos of a good TH-camr who explained that Miyamoto isn’t the one to be blamed.
0:17 ohh are the two people who run this channel husband and wife? thats so cool
Relationship goals
@@DitzyBear fr
i would love to get a wife who is also a big nintendo nut like me too bad alot of people nowadays are rude and don't care about it
Miyamoto is correct. The next paper mario game should have no text boxes, and be nothing but glueing and stapling paper together! Also nothing but mario and goombas.
That sounds amazing. I know everyone would just love that game. But forget goombas, those are so last season. We should have real world companions like crumpled paper, hole puncher, and a single staple. The enemies should be the evil rock, paper scissor trio that only Mario and his corporate team can defeat. Where's the actual Mario characters? Some may ask, but that doesn't matter. This is totally the evolution that the Paper Mario series needs.
Nintendo Labo 2?
@@julienherard414enemies, team we don’t need those mario in a paper airplane with a pencil drawing
@chaosenforcerdhm969 heck! We don't even need Mario! An abstract anthropomorphic figure is just what we need!
@@julienherard414 Yet Starfox is finished.
Wow the audio is much better, thank you!
As great as Miyamoto is… he’s kind of a tyrannical Boomer and his influence while impactful to his creations’ successes, also hold them back from being more.
I don’t appreciate that he tells us that a good game is one that HE thinks we’ll enjoy bc he enjoys playing them one way.
Bc ya know what the young kids really want and like to be in their Paper Mario games?? Actual paper mechanics!
I'm just a nobody so ofc no one has noticed, but I've been saying this to anyone who will listen for years and years now. Miyamoto did a lot for the game industry, but I'd argue he's been holding Nintendo and a bunch of its franchises back for the past couple of decades.
@@Scerttle Nintendo works on consoles that run behind the competition literally and figuratively as a business strategy… they’ve literally admitted this.
@@cb8655 OK????
RPGs can play on literally anything
Does it really make sense to comment this under a video about the og ttyd though
That's quite a long time from today
the future is now, old man
So then, Thousand Year Door was a classic game in *spite* of Miyamoto, and not *because* of him.
That we're going back to it after Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King which had much more direct control from Miyamoto shows that those games did not do as well as he would have hoped.
I'd note several of those quotes were about Sticker Star, Miyamoto was calling the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay boring and suggested they change it. A suggestion Intelligent Systems ignored and thus players of the game repeated what Miyamoto said. Miyamoto also approved TTYD in the end.
At last, I can now enjoy this video with both of my ears
It’s certainly strange that those scenes with a hundred sprites on screen at a time is what did it, cuz like… yeah it’s cool that they can render that many characters on screen at a time I guess, but it’s certainly *FAR* from what I think of when asked what I like most about TTYD. Hell, it’s not what I think of for literally any game, including Pikmin lmao. It certainly is what *allows* Pikmin to function as a game, but it’s the real-time strategy of Pikmin that makes it an actually worthwhile experience. Same goes for TTYD’s RPG elements.
As someone who is an avid fan of the first 3 games, and despises Sticker Star, I don’t think this is entirely Miyamoto’s fault. While he did have issues with that 3DS Paper Mario and told the team it was too much like TTYD, the director of the series, Kensuke Tanabe, was the one steering the ship. He took Miyamoto’s advice, twisted it to the point where he took a bunch of shortcuts and that led to Sticker Star being released. Miyamoto actually didn’t like Sticker Star either when the game was shown to him, he said it was incredibly boring (which I think many can agree on). That time Tanabe said in an interview that Miyamoto got angry with him, I could be mistaken on this but I heard Miyamoto got angry over how he handled Bowser in Sticker Star, in which he gave Bowser zero dialogue and no personality at all. Tanabe was never told to remove all the RPG elements from the game, nor was he told to scrub it of any and all originality. I don’t want to come off like I’m defending Miyamoto, but I don’t think what happened to Paper Mario falls entirely on him, especially when Tanabe had as much creative control as he did, yet chose to take the games in such a bland direction.
Either way though, TTYD’s remake is gorgeous and I love it so much. It’s a dream come true
I hope this comment gets pinned. Seriously
All evidence points to Miyamoto being at least as much at fault as Tanabe. Tanabe took a concept (That we never got to play btw) which in Miyamoto's words were "too much like TTYD". But we know that to Miyamoto, he played one RPG, so he has played them all. Miyamoto also demanded that Tanabe focus on the paper mechanics over anything else for Sticker Star's development. Also, while Miyamoto did call the final version "boring" he also encouraged Tanabe to go down that road and also approved it for launch despite calling it "boring" so it wasn't that bad for Miyamoto. It probably went something like this 1. TTYD3DS was never going to pass Miyamoto because he hates RPG's, so he sent it back to the drawing board and gave Tanabe his "helpful advice" which Tanabe took far too literal and then Miyamoto saw that Tanabe followed all of the advice and wanted to push the game anyway and approved Sticker Star.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to understand the culture of "soft control" of Intelligent Studios or how much Tanabe revering Miyamoto spoiled the game. There are conflicting sources on that whole approval process, and it does seem all but certain that one project will have entirely different quality controls compared to another. The fact that Paper Mario was sterilized to within an inch of its life shows that Nintendo and very likely Miyamoto himself wanted Paper Mario to reflect the NEW SMB series since they were all green lit and always reinvented the wheel which is EXACTLY what Miyamoto demands in Nintendo games. I am certain that Miyamoto is not alone in his obsession with making every single game unique, heck, I am certain that Tanabe is Miyamoto's right-hand man in that obsession, but Miyamoto is most certainly at the head of the problem.
I am always of the opinion that these gaming interviews are more like micro insights, so I take what is said and amplify the personalities and ego as much as possible. It is also likely that while Miyamoto did not step in to Intelligent Systems much that he DID talk to Tanabe personally and maybe did so a LOT so while Miyamoto was only an advisor on paper, that Tanabe being the Miyamoto fanboy he admits to being, that he was effectively little more than a puppet while Miyamoto was the "real" director. This is speculation on my part, but it does fit the chain of confirmed events of Sticker Star. It is also possible that Tanabe is just not a good director. Reports I have seen say that Tanabe is a "My way or highway" type of director except when Miyamoto is involved. All could be true here.
Then you remember that Miyamoto has veto power and influences things greatly because of that, as seen in the video
Intelligent Systems chose not to change the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay, Intelligent Systems indeed had full creative control, Miyamoto was just making suggestions, and the creative team at Intelligent Systems is a different one than the one that made PM64-SPM.
We're in interesting times to say the least. Something that I thought of after just beating TTYD yesterday was that they actually created a new character in the form of Battle Master. Yes he's a Toad but at the very least not STICKER STAR levels of bland Toad.
Wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo announces a remake of the original Paper Mario this June during the direct.
Friendly reminder that Miyamoto was so brutal in his critique of the first Earthbound title that he made Shigasato Itoi cry.
I respect Miyamoto a lot, but he needs to stop getting involved with Mario RPGs - he's actively making them worse. Hopefully Nintendo as a whole will get the idea that a majority of the fanbase prefers the original trilogy over the Sticker Star formula, where games respect your time as a player.
He was only a step in the process that created Sticker Star. It originally was very close to Thousand Year Door. Miyamoto reminded them to evolve the series as they made the new entry, and Tanabe took it as an excuse to drop the entire formula. Miyamoto actually came back to test the sticker system beta and found that one boring.
@@amandaslough125It’s true, but Miyamoto also said “it’s fine without a story, so does it really need one?” While it’s good to push things forward, he isn’t blameless here either. He’s not the sole cause tho.
@@FedoraKirb Sadly the game sold well.
@@FedoraKirb Yes, but there is a point in there: you can justify any form of gameplay with good writing. Good writing doesn't save terrible gameplay though. So what's the point of having a story then? It's to enhance the gameplay. He doesn't hate story, he just doesn't focus on it.
He's very much less the culprit here, just the catalyst. Tanabe is the one who decided to ask "does an rpg need rpg elements?" And was inspired by Tingle's Rupeeland, of all things, to make the sticker and coin system.
@@amandaslough125 Oh I agree that he doesn’t hate stories (I have a big comment on this video about that). But that wording did have some problems. He’s not blameless, but he’s not the main culprit.
TL;DR: Based on these quotes and anecdotes, Miyamoto doesn’t seem to “hate” stories, he’s just finds gameplay more important.
3:06 3:29 I feel like people are going to take the quotes in this video out of context/miss the big picture and come to the conclusion that he “hates” stories in games. What he’s saying here is that he feels that a game’s given narrative and turn-based combat don’t contribute to the feel of the character actions you can take nearly as much as elements like controls or sound design does, and as much as I like video game stories and feel they can enhance an overall experience, I have to agree here. Even when narrative gives context to your actions that emotionally charges them, they don’t affect the feedback that you get from an action in the same way, like, screen shake does for example.
This would explain why the two-screen gimmick was enough to justify Star Fox Zero’s existence despite having the exact same story as the original Star Fox for the third time, as well as his _insistence_ that people would get used to the controls; it made for a brand new game feel (even if it was a worse one for most people), and would provide that skill growth he’s talking about all over again. It’s the mindset that birthed the infamous “it’s fine without a story, so does it really need one?” (which Tanabe seemed to misinterpret as “take out the story without adding interesting gameplay.”) It’s why the most F-Zero has gotten in 20 years is a battle royale re-imagining of the first game with no given narrative. It’s why Miyamoto’s “storytelling series” uses the same plot formula for most mainline games. Hecc, based on the story of getting TTYD approved, I wouldn’t be surprised if the team changing the formula for Super Paper Mario was done preemptively with Miyamoto in mind, since the game started development on the GameCube and they had already used the crowd scenes gimmick in TTYD.
To him, using the same gameplay is boring even if there’s a new story, but using the same story is fine as long as there’s new gameplay. None of this means he “hates” stories. He’s not going out of his way to destroy stories in games; the stories that Yoichi Koizumi “snuck under Miyamoto’s nose” in Link’s Awakening and Super Mario Galaxy might have been DEVELOPED without Miyamoto’s knowledge or input, but he still allowed them in the final game. Miyamoto, at least based on the quotes in this video, just feels stories don’t contribute much to what makes games fun compared to gameplay elements, and wants developers to focus on that more. And while I GREATLY disagree with that stance, as a designer I can respect his philosophy of game feel above all else. Not everything can be priority numero uno, and different designers having different philosophies is how we get a diverse landscape of games.
HOWEVER, even if I respect it as a _designer,_ I’m still disappointed as a _player,_ because this philosophy has both directly and indirectly harmed or restricted what I (and many others) like about them.
Fun Fact: the only reason this game was made is because Miyamoto wanted a flight game that can viewed at multiple angles for the sake of (spectacle). However it takes away accessibility, meaning the zoomed out camera makes it difficult to time. This is why we have first person mode.
Thankfully there's a minus button if you can't use the two screens, In addition to training mode.
If you take everything at face value, sure, but there is a lot more at play when you look at the patterns that come from the negative stories about his process. I wont dive into all the negatives here, but there is enough to paint that exact picture that he hates story and one needs to overcome that with some sort of mechanical spectacle to get his approval. Miyamoto is not an idiot, and has been around since the revival of the industry, if we dont just fully credit the revival on his vision and put him on a pedestal he no longer needs to earn, so he knows how to twist his words to get his way, regardless of how unreasonable the logic behind the words is. M:"I dont hate stories, i just hate how stories are passive and require my active attention to read when i could be actively doing something instead." fans:"so... you hate stories: because that is the entire point of them." M:"well... yes, but you wont ever hear me admit to that because i know how unreasonable it is, and it would force me to reflect on my bias instead of blindly acting on it."
I am not working directly with Miyamoto, and cannot speak on the exact collaborative process involved with getting his approval, but take a closer look at what this story is saying: He grew board of the game because he had to read it, and it took solving the problem he was actively working on for his own project to get approval. Horde scenes doesnt change TTYD in any way except spectacle, which is the primary function a story provides. It wasnt a gameplay change that got his approval, but a minor story change, as that is all the horde scenes do. And this is just dissecting this single story time without considering others that corroborate it. Just as the most obvious myth- even if the scale was blown out of proportion, it still reveals a truth alongside all the similar stories- Rosalina's story time in Mario Galaxy 1 was "snuck" into the final product, and it can be directly traced to be the reason Rosalina became an instant icon in the mario canon enough to reappear (even when it makes very little sense to like in 3D world). Heck, one of Nintendo's biggest flaws people comment on is the reliance on gimmicks to sell consoles, most of which dont really hold up and the few that do fail to regularly influence long-term economic growth or development of tech, and needing to "bribe" Miyamoto with a mechanical "newness" could very well be the primary reason for the trend.
Look, i dont hate Miyamoto, but as you yourself admit, his biases directly harm the potential of their games and even tech if my previous assertion holds any weight. Maybe it is wishful thinking, maybe it is appearances, or maybe there is actual progress being made, but it does at least feel like the switch is leading in the right direction and creating a paradigm shift internally in nintendo itself. The switch's main "gimmick" was already tested on the wii u and we are getting much more fan-pleasing content like a ttyd remake that isnt hampered down by needing to offer something brand new mechanically. Heck, i dont want to admit it, but the paradigm shift even showed itself in early hardware issues like joycon drift and how it didnt quite live up to the same "nintendo quality" that let a game boy survive a fire.
@@cullenlatham2366 People say Miyamoto killed the Starfox franchise and that the series would be better without him.
Wrong, the truth is he was running out of ideas for the series, and when Zero was finished that was it. Arcade shooters are alot harder to evolve than people think.
@@orangeslash1667 yeah, but i directly avoided talking about star fox for lack of knowledge on the subject. Star fox is not the only nintendo franchise that fails in the story department, and the only real way to improve an arcade shooter is to give a fresh or evolving story every time. Did Miyamoto ruin the franchise? i have no point of reference, but i would say no. Did his biases get in the way of keeping the series fresh? Again, based off the discourse, yes.
Nintendo and Story are almost complete opposites, and the ones that do have actual stories come from third parties or studios under the publishing umbrella of nintendo (like xenoblade). Does the switch show a paradigm shift in creating stories? No. Does it show that nintendo is more willing to gamble on a good story? Maybe.
@@cullenlatham2366 I’m not just taking the words at face value, though. I’m contextualizing them with his actions. You’re putting words into his mouth. Miyamoto did not say anything about hating active reading part, at least not in this video. “I won’t dive into all the negatives” no please do. If you want to make claims about someone you don’t know, you need evidence.
Miyamoto’s words indicate a philosophy of _game feel first,_ one that’s directly in line with nearly every single game he’s had a hand in. It’s why Mario is consistently one of the most fun platformer characters to _control:_ Miyamoto’s trained his team to focus on the feel of play first. Maybe he really is trying to “twist his words” to make his alleged hatred of stories sound more benign. But look at his _actions._ To me, the examples I listed-StarFox, F-Zero, Paper Mario, Zelda-indicate that story is a _lower priority,_ or at worst suggest _indifference_ more than hatred.
Star-Fox didn’t have to have a story with Miyamoto at the helm. And we’ve seen how stubborn Miyamoto can be, so if he really HATED stories as people said, Star Fox would just be a bunch of levels with no connecting story, a la Galaga. And if he hated stories, we wouldn’t have Zelda. Pikmin is his baby, even moreso than Mario, and to my understand that series has a surprising amount of world-building. Even the crowd scenes in TTYD contribute to game _feel,_ even if they have little impact on _what_ you do. I wouldn’t hinge a new game off of it alone, but based on the games that Miyamoto has worked on, it wouldn’t totally line up.
You and I don’t know Miyamoto. We don’t know what’s going on inside his head. The only thing we can use to look behind his words are his actions.
This popped up in my feed earlier but i couldn't listen in because the audio was messing with me. Will definitely give this a watch later. Thank you!
"The novelty test" is why we haven't seen F-Zero since the Gamecube, and see so little of Starfox.
"the moral of the story sometimes to collaborate with others..."
"You should manipulate the person by finding a minor concession thats special to them"
"Its worth finding ways to compromise "
"Oh"
I believe that many comments under this videos are too harsh on Miyamoto. The fact is that nintendo has released many good games since they are in the videogame business, and let's be honest without Miyamoto there wouldn't be a Paper Mario to begin with. Of course during the years bad decisions have also been made, and this is normal, nobody does everything right. What I disagree with the comments, ia that people think to know everything about the development process of Paper Mario based on "quotes" most likely taken out of context. People say things all the times, and often contradict themselves. Those quotes can give us at most a vague idea, but in reality we don't know anything about what happens in Nintendo since nobody was there to see.
Screw Miyamoto
Also, having some pressure on the team to please someone who's hard to please often improves the quality of the product.
Yes for example. The quote about it not being fun was Miyamoto saying Sticker Star's Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay was not fun, and suggesting Intelligent Systems change it. Intelligent Systems chose not to, and the players repeated what Miyamoto said when they played the game. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on Sticker Star and beyond. The team behind Sticker Star and Beyond is not the same one from PM64-SPM. He the quote of Miyamoto asking if it needed as story was again about Sticker Star, and a suggestion.
Huh!?
What gives miyamoto the right to think his position is enough to meddle, despite his lack of experience in a specific genre (RPGs), with game development?
The fact that he doesn't like the RPG system (and being vocal about it) should be enough to ask him to "shut up" and step aside. Some people actually enjoy other things, and the feeling of growing is something that the core of 3D Mario games do not provide (with all your movement abilities unlocked)!
And that revelation @7:50 just shows me how much of a child miyamoto is. He probably thought of Pikmin when he was shown the "improvement" and got a hard-on. EDIT: Spot on!
The "they had no idea how to do this" @5:50 is amusing today, seeing how TTYD is barely an improved version of the original game. Reiterating in almost every aspect, just polishing and adding on top of the already great Paper Mario 64. Game development at nintendo is not about compromising, but appealing to the whims of an overly-controlling person.
I'm sure the death of the franchise of Paper Mario was caused by mr. genius himself. Sometimes, I can't wait for him to NOT be at Nintendo any more.
2:30 Doubt RPGs are all that can be described in that way...
Me, who finds the early game of RPGs to be the most enjoyable part of them:
thank you for not using stretched footage.
I lost a lot of respect for Miyamoto after I heard about the trouble he gave Paper Mario back in the day. Great video. You have a good voice for narration, and enunciate things well.
TL;DR: miyamoto went all neuron activation when he saw hundreds of stuff on screen at a time
This story kind of portrays a different feel than what the title actually implies.
I don't think Miyamoto was necessarily against the idea of Paper Mario simply by being an RPG, but rather that It comes off as if Intelligent Systems wanted to make a basic turn-based RPG that at most, kept the concepts from 64 and RPG, and Miyamoto wanted the game to innovate, which led to the crowd system, the stylish moves and the many models that were able to be on screen.
Hearing this, it mostly comes off as the same problem Miyamoto has with alot of games, where a game cannot simply be good, It has to bring something new and try to re-invent the wheel every time. Only that he's a lot more strict with RPGs.
It does seem like he was stuck on the paper idea though. Whereas something like the Mario & Luigi series could come up with totally new gimmicks every game, it seems like the success of Paper Mario specifically depended on their ability to iterate on the paper concept. And you can actually see this with later Paper Mario titles heavily focusing on arts and crafts concepts.
@@wrmsnicketto be fair, the name “paper Mario” creates heavy incentive to stick to at least some type of paper theme, otherwise the name makes no sense. Meanwhile, the name “Mario and Luigi” can be applied to literally anything involving the Mario Bros.
I mean honestly I agree with him that games should strive to innovate. It’s my problem with most Sony sequels like Spider-Man 2, they do very little to enhance the formula from the previous game and it feels more like it’s the first game again but with a new story.
@@garf752 And i wouldn't be surprised if that's how he saw TTYD. Mario RPG? It's the first attempt to something new. Paper Mario 64? Having an RPG with a unique aesthetic that separated from RPG.
TTYD pushed the limits of the Gamecube with all the renders takes to the paper aesthetic, but if you think about it, it's an enhanced take on 64 and in some areas, flat out mirrors it, so the idea of "But this story goes deeper and more serious" would probably make him think "So? We make games".
I mean I don’t blame him, most games do need to innovate because to many are very stale and either borrow to much from other games or are a worse copy cat of another game.
Now I’m not saying every game in a series needs to be wacky but he kinda has a point.
Building off what made one game good rarely works because a sequel that is just the original but better is hardly a good sequel.
You need to justify a sequel hence innovating is good because it creates a better justification for a sequel.
Now that doesn’t mean the sequel needs to be a separate genre or fundamentally change the game to the point it barely resembles the original. But it’s good to innovate and focus on different aspects of the series because you get more variety and flavor.
His quote about swords sounding more powerful as they level up in a game is very interesting. It explains why each of the 4 different sword levels in Link to the Past have different SFX for each swing.
I just spent the last ten minutes listening to the broken audio version and was so scared that I had to go spend on another pair of headphones when the set I’m currently using was just purchased two weeks ago
Howard Phillips way back when he was more or less in charge of Nintendo of America's selection of NES titles, did the same thing to Miyamoto when he was asked to play-test the original Super Mario Bros. 2 to gauge how American audiences would like it. He was reportedly "shocked" Miyamoto would make a game that felt so unoriginal compared to the first and so unfairly punishingly difficult. Nintendo of Japan went back to a game they'd just released to promote a fair and retooled it as a Mario game, as most here probably already know. From then on, new Mario games were rarely ever just a reskin of the previous Mario game. I wonder if that dressing down from Howard Phillips (my personal favorite "lead" of the American branch... never really cared for Reggie) left a lasting impression on Miyamoto?
Thing is, while I certainly appreciate Miyamoto's "light on story, heavy on gameplay" approach, sometimes I think his focus on that can itself be an obstacle. For a game like a turn based RPG where you're going through the same enemy encounters many times over, it kind of NEEDS a story to keep someone moving through dungeons and exploring. It's a major part of those experiences. Imagine Baldur's Gate without all the lore and characters and themes and you have a rather dull slog through fighting wave after wave of gnolls forever. You know, Gauntlet. The only saving grace for Gauntlet is the multiplayer, which MAKES those games. Wizard destroyed the food.
Heck, I enjoyed what he provided back in the older Zelda titles, so clearly he's not COMPLETELY anti-story. Come to think of it, Romero has a similar attitude, treating story in his shooty games as something that's like a story in "porn, people expect it, but it isn't important".... Which explains whatever was going on in Daikatana SO much. At least when Miyamoto goes light on story, there's enough threads there like in Link to the Past that we can stitch together a compelling narrative. I recall there was a struggle to go deeper with a story like in Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, too.
I'm not saying Miyamoto's approach is wrong, just that he should probably go easier on other teams with their own leads. Maybe a nudge if the cutscenes get too obnoxiously long or if the story directly makes the act of playing the game unfun (like if a large chunk of Paper Mario just became a walking simulator to the next point to hit "A" on), but let them cook.
Despite the later fate of the series, I think Thousand Year Door became a better game by virtue of this process, but it's kinda funny how the most Pikmin-like chapter of TTYD is generally the least popular.
Miyamoto is the reason Paper Mario series changed its formula after TTYD and also why we dont get more Paper Mario Games focused on rpg elements
The thing is, mario rpgs get rid of being "tied up" and stuck, with things like action commands and badges which allow more skilful players to take harder challenges earlier on.
I mean stylish moves are literally the definition of doing something to a rhythm
knowing that the concept of crowds singlehandedly greenlit the game can really be felt, like the battle scenes would definitely not have a crowd in it if that wasnt the case
he then drove everything into the ground after super
Super Paper Mario hands down IMO had THE BEST STORY out of all the paper mario series (though ttyd IS my fav one). That man is out of touch.
No Intelligent Systems did that.
I don't think there's anything wrong during game development to question aspects of the game. The game was probably better for being scrutinzed.
I don't think I've ever heard someone talk about a positive experience with Miyamoto in a professional context. Not once.
Yeah, probably he is often quoted out of context and made to be depicted as someone who is a control freak who hates story.
Before I started the video, I had a hunch that Miyamoto would like the audience mechanic in battles and that would make him approve the project, since that's the big difference between PM64 and PMTTYD (aside from the story). And I guess I was kinda right (?)
I mean hey, with twice or three times more hype, it'd be cool to see Super remastered as well. Sure not even one percent liked the story and Myamoto said that Paper Mario doesn't need one but out of all of them, it's the best selling one. We need a remaster for Super Paper Mario!
3:35 Dragon Quest series asks "why not both?"
I used to like Miyamoto, but after hearing he's the reason Nintendo barely touches stories post-Gamecube I've come to dislike him quite a bit. I don't know why some people say he had nothing to do with it when the developers have said it.
Like any human being, Miyamoto has made both good and bad decisions.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 Yeah, it's just annoying his have affected so many people for so long, even if it is just entertainment
@@TaliesinMyrddin It's all about how the game is visually impressive, good gameplay isn't enough for him.
It's because Miyamoto suggested Sticker Star didn't need a story, not demanded it. Intelligent Systems had full creative control and freedom on Sticker Star and Beyond. The Intelligent Systems team behind PM64-SPM is not the same one post Sticker Star. In addition the quote about Miyamoto thinking something wasn't fun was in reference to the Sticker Mechanic and Gameplay of Sticker Star, and he was suggesting they change it. Intelligent Systems chose not to change it.
it was probably the part with the punies that convinced him, because this section of the game feels a bit like pikmin
@3:48 Tarnished be like: hold my flask!
The game was successful in spite of Miyamoto. Not because of.
2:55 it’s funny to me that Miyomoto wanted to insist that Legend of Zelda wasn’t really an RPG… despite also being on the record describing the skill progression of RPGs in a way that’s even more like Legend of Zelda than some other RPGs as his reasoning for not liking them. Incidentally, his description of what he doesn’t like about RPGs also sounds like the core gameplay philosophy of the Metroid series, basically helping spawning a genre of what we call Metroidvania… to be fair, not really RPGs, though many RPGs have such elements to their exploration too, like Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi games.
But maybe his reluctance toward numbers and stats ended up making the earlier Paper Mario games, and the Mario and Luigi games better while those factors were still at play. Ultimately, those games truly made the grind for those better stats a way to simply make the game easier. It’s especially true with the Mario and Luigi series, I think. These games make you feel more powerful as much with how you get better at the game (dodging or blocking more consistently, timing button presses for optimal damage,) that you actually *feel* more powerful because of that, even more so than the “higher numbers” on the screen.
Man, Miyamoto is a legend, but sometimes it feels like his priorities are so frustratingly out of place.
Ah well, It seems he is stepping back more and more these days and letting others lead the way as he gets older. Hopefully means that we never see another Sticker Star situation ever again
It's genuinely weird how much of a pedestal people put the guy on, nobody else gets this kind of treatment in the industry. He's had a couple great ideas and he's held the industry back for decades. "Legend" feels like very much the wrong word.
@@Electric0eye Considering RPG's struggled to sell well back then, I can understand Miyamoto's mindset. It's like he felt turn based RPG's needed more spectacle to appeal to Western gamers.
A good example is Final Fantasy 7, and it's impressive animations.
Never forget to defy your boss until you get what you want
So you’re telling me Chapter 2 saved this game from being shredded?
TTYD's crowd scenes and audience/appeal system are charming and heighten the game, but they are absolutely NOT necessary for TTYD to be a masterpiece. It is sad they had to appeal to one person's obsessive fixation - no matter how legendary that person might be - in order to get this approved.
Engaging non-generic characters, clever writing, diverse scenarios...and less important to me, but yes, an interesting RPG battle system with a clever badge mechanic...are the heart of why TTYD is so amazing. But I think the game could have NO battles and only be slightly diminished by it, because everything else is so strong. The fun battles are the icing on the cake. And it certainly doesn't need crowds to be great.
And, though not discussed in this vid, this sort of obstinance from the suits at Nintendo (not pointing fingers specifically at Miyamoto, since we dont know for sure, but...) almost certainly why we have not gotten a TTYD sequel to this day, 20 years later.
He's right about Zelda, it's not an RPG.
Miyamoto is no longer making games. He announced this last year when they did Mario movie. He is now a representative for Mario to the universe and not even producing anymore
Miyamoto's insistence on every new game in a franchise having some forced novelty is what really irritates me. Sometimes gamers just want more of the same. Gimme a new Paper Mario that plays exactly the same as TTYD with new characters and story, and I'm happy. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time.
And yet he considers something as trivial as having 100 characters on screen at the same time as novel enough to greenlight a game? I mean, I'm glad it WAS greenlit, but what a...non-novel reason.
Yeah...I respect Miyamoto a bunch for his contributions for Nintendo but Intelligent Systems really should not have taken his advice to heart just because he's a popular/successful dude when they were working on the modern entries after Super Paper Mario especially since he doesn't even like RPGS's nor does he have experience with them. Look at how Sticker Star came out when they followed his advice. No offense to those who like that entry or hold nostalgia for it as well. Granted I've heard pleasant stuff from the fans for Color Splash and especially for Origami King but they certainly would have been stronger entries if not for those annoying restrictions.
The problem is that Nintendo wouldn't have given them the money (and the right to use Mario) to develop the games without Miyamoto's approval. It's not "just because Miyamoto is a popular dude", he's the one calling the shots. Unfortunately.
@@Tiwill Which is strange because I heard from an interview somewhere that intelligent Systems has full creative freedom for this series so that seems a little sus to me. Also I probably should of worded it better. But what I mean he's popular I mean he's a well respected developer for Nintendo and because he's well respected by every one and Nintendo so no one has the courage do deny his requests even if his advice is flawed they just take what he says almost like there yes men. It's somewhat of a similar issue with what happened with the Star Wars prequals with no one questioning George Lucas's story telling or writing even when there's blatant issues with it simply because of his past success granted the modern entries after George left Star Wars also have issues as well but that's going off topic. it's a similar thing with Miyamoto with the Paper Mario series but like I said he doesn't really get RPG's and he's also use to the mainline entries which don't rely on stories and because of there success he assumes it will also work for the RPG series Paper Mario as well at least I think that's what went wrong with the modern entries that and also Tanabe greatly looks up to Miyamoto which is not a bad thing to look up to your idol but even idol's can make flaws in there judgement there human after all. And lastly I still respect Miyamoto even if a don't like some of his old school boomer behavior he has sometimes. Same with George for creating Star Wars as well.
@@seasonembrace3624 From what I understand, because Miyamoto still works at Nintendo and Mario is his creation, he gets the final say on what people can do with our favorite italian plumber. So everything Mario is involved with needs to get manually approved by him. He basically supervises the whole Mario brand.
If IntSys has full creative freedom over Paper Mario, it's probably with an asterisk, in the sense that Miyamoto can still veto anything since Mario is his baby.
Tbh, I actually really liked the voice in my left ear. I'm serious. This, however, is not bad either 😂
I think it's easy to bash Miyamoto, because, well, it's often warranted.
But I do think this is a time to play a strong devil's advocate. Although I deeply disagree with the fact that you have to start limited by stats and abilities is an inherently restrictive feeling to the player,
I do agree that the concept of "fun" Miyamoto has can be incorporated into these kinds of games.
When/if Miyamoto steps down from his work or gives up some power, I do hope he leaves a "gaming bible" of sorts for Nintendo developers to go back to. So if something seems like a good game but just isn't "fun," they can think, "What would Miyamoto say about this?' But not as a reason to go in a whole different direction but as advice and tips to keep core feelings throughout Nintendo games while being entirely different games. Like Splatoon.
what gaming bible? "don't bore players"? UNRIVALED GENIUS
he has had some great specific game ideas but his philosophy is pretty simplistic and has no nuance
@@TurbopropPuppy I think good philosophies are simple and don't offer rules. The nuance are up to the subscribers of the philosophies to apply.
@@TurbopropPuppyMiyamoto and his team over the years has made some great games, it’s good to see what he thought when making them, in support, and against. It’s not about treating him like a god but from learning from him- both the successes and the mistakes.
And I don’t really know if it’s simplistic- sure his general sayings of “gameplay first!!!” can be seen as extremely simple, but in certain interviews and for certain games, how he applies said simplistic philosophies can be pretty interesting and honestly kinda profound. Example was him suggesting Metroid Prime be first person instead of 3rd in lieu of making Samus easier and more immersive to control when Retro Studios were struggling.
Its easy to pick out Miyamoto’s out of touchness after games release, but there is a real point he has- even here when he states his lack of preference for RPGs. My favorite genre are JRPGs and even I see his point and why RPGs can be a bit of a turn off to people.
@@Socioromanticism The reason is that Miyamoto was taught by the late Gunpei Yokoi, who was known for innovation and toys. Due to his tragic death, Miyamoto feels that he must become the next Yokoi by any means necessary. So Miyamoto focus in games is innovation rather than story.
So there’s a timeline where we actually had paper Mario 3. I love the man and the work he has done but this is beyond ridiculous.
it sounds like miyamoto just for some reason hates stories but if you just keep pressing him and ignoring his complaining, you can just go ahead anyways
For a whle now it feels like the paper mario franchise has been sabotaged from the inside... And yes i was aware of the interview and to me it's such a shame to clip the wings of such talented developers. We are talking about Intelligent Systems... These guys are Gods on their fields. They were able to create one of the best Mario Kart titles on an underpowered consoles, master of RPG mechanics and on their own right, really good story tellers and it feels so wrong to hear these stories about how a sacred cow at nintendo was trampling over their work, Myamoto struck gold with some of his games, then decided no one else should experience greatness, that how that reads to me.
I remember when i saw the Star fox Zero showcase... It was like How can someone be so out of touch and staring back at us saying, ononononoo, this is what you want, i know better... It's not about being a boomer, millenial, Gen-Z it's about letting people craft the games they want to craft
This just makes me genuinely curious now, how was the ttyd remake greenlit then considering how much Miyamoto hated that era of paper mario?
Because he never did. Miyamoto hating OG Paper Mario and Stories is Disinformation at it’s absolute worst. The guy that approved and worked on Super Mario RPG, and produced all the Paper Mario Games up until Super Paper Mario, is apparently anti-Paper Mario (OG that is)? Watch SuperMarioT’s video on the subject.
Miyamoto doesn't hate story btw
So basically they had to key jingle Miyamoto with huge crowds.
Lmao
There's a difference between feeling a story is "unnecessary" and being actively hostile to having one. It's almost like Miyamoto views "gameplay vs story" as this zero sum game where an engaging story will "detract" from the enjoyment of the gameplay rather than complement and build upon one another.
Miyamoto was certainly one of the great innovators of his time for which we will be forever grateful, but he really does need to retire if this mindset and stubborn pride of his is quashing the next generation's ability to build upon his legacy.
Miyamoto has that late 80s and early 90s mindset where games should be "simple fun" and nothing else and also thinks that Mario shouldn't advance past princess peach being kidnapped by Bowser, every NPC being a generic toad, and there being no good goombas or koopas. I don't think he wanted to "ruin" paper Mario, that notion is quite absurd. Rather, he has an outdated philosophy and a rigid definition of how things should be. I guarantee you he told Risa Tabata to say that "there can only be one Mario RPG series" like Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario aren't very different types of games, because he probably agreed on only one RPG and likely thought more was too much. Even if I liked Origami King and thought it was a decent improvement over Color Splash, it has those same problems that held back the series for years, especially with no experience points.
He also doesn't understand how RPGs work. "Stats and numbers" are supposed to be part of the strategy. Turn-based battles are supposed to be time-consuming for a reason. It means that the more time you invest into battle, the more you level up and become stronger, and this can actually make enemy encounters late in the game take less time. Without experience and leveling up, battles become pointless, like in Sticker Star. Plus, the point is that you play a "role" as these characters who you see develop and grow. Mario is more of a static character, but that could be to put the player in his shoes more easily. The story adds to games by making them feel more meaningful. The first Paper Mario has a basic plot, but unlike Sticker Star, has several unique characters, and we get to look into Bowser and his motivations. We see that he loves Peach genuinely, and doesn't just want the benefits of marrying a monarch. We also see his personality, seeing that he's rude, selfish, arrogant, and extremely immature, throwing constant temper tantrums when things don't go his way like a child. Peach gets to be useful by helping Mario by getting badges and information to help him. Sticker Star is like the original without that character, which feels more soulless. It also has bad gameplay, so it wasn't even fun.
I also found it hypocritical that he seems to harp on innovation, when the NSMB series had 3 games that all feel the exact same, proving that this likely was a cover for his unfavourability towards storytelling. Of course, I will admit, he probably did think this and wasn't a fan of how the NSMB games turned out and so until Wonder, no new 2D Mario games were made, and that also may be why we never got a Galaxy 3, even if a lot of people wanted it.
I will say Kensuke Tanabe does deserve the blame for the new direction of the series, but I argue he's just listening to Miyamoto's strict mandates. Miyamoto probably isn't saying anything because he wanted Tanabe to be blamed for the direction the series went in, since Tanabe is likely a yes-man who has the same out-of-touch philosophies about games. After 2020, Miyamoto was clearly revealed to be at fault, and so Tanabe isn't working on future titles for that reason. Miyamoto probably also realized that the mandates were a bad idea and decided to remove them as well. Probably the reason Nintendo went to Miyamoto is because Ryota Kawade left after Super Paper Mario, and so since there was no leader to plan or counter him, everyone just listened to Miyamoto if he didn't like something.
I still love Miyamoto and what he has done for the gaming industry, but he has shown that his ideas are somewhat out of touch and stuck in the past and I feel like Mario can grow when less restrictions are there.
So we only got TTYD cause of the Punis from Chapter 2!?!?
Yes
So no one still realized that its Miyamoto who's the obstacle of the game development yet if it wasn't for him developers won't be as creative for each game they make, you can find it annoying that you're work is not enough but if the game still the same as the last prequel or series then it wouldn't be as iconic and distinction of each game make that you won't have to worry going back to old game just because it wasn't as best as the current new one.
What I seen in Nintendo games is that it made you play games back to back because both game may the same but entirely different play.
Miyamoto has been an obstacle to development on every single game he has worked on in his professional career.
its fine without a story, indeed, but "fine" is not the same as great, im surprised to hear that Miyamoto willingly avoids going to the extra mile needed for his games to reach their full potential represented by a good story telling
He says Zelda needs a story, and thought as in past tense Mario doesn't need one. He made Pikmin and worked on it. He did approve things like Rosalina's Storybook.
The thing to consider about Miyamoto is that no matter your opinions of him, he's a harsh guy with a lot of seniority who'll say what's on his mind and expects others to follow in suit.
A lot of the reason why the Mario brand has been feeling innovative with itself is because Miyamoto has been too busy with producing multiple movies in collaboration with Hollywood folk and leaving Mario and Zelda to the producers in charge. I feel that Nintendo fans appreciate Miyamoto being Miyamoto for Hollywood because his stern hand guarantees that Hollywood would be forced to compromise with him at worst or at best let him have his way with how he wants the films to go
I respect Miyamoto, but he needs to stay away from Paper Mario. He’s been a detriment to the series overall.
No that was Intelligent Systems doing, Miyamoto merely suggested Sticker Star didn't need a story. Also the quote about something being boring was Miyamoto calling Sticker Star' mechanics and gameplay not fun, suggesting Intelligent Systems change it, and Intelligent Systems ignoring his suggestion since they did have full creative control and freedom.
This is hilarious as Paper Mario games after 2 went so badly...
Miyamoto must have really liked Super Paper Mario then. Can’t really blame him if that’s the case
Stuff like this makes me hate Miyamoto. Ever since he said Mario doesn't need a story I wish he'd retire. My favorite Mario games have stories... All the RPGs, Sunshine, Galaxy, Odyssey.
2:53 that sent shivers down me
Hello, love your content!
Could you make a video about “Marvel vs Capcom Collection Arcade Classics”? Those games coming back was a dream come true for myself and many other fighting game fans. I’d like to use your video as a teaching tool to educate my friends. MvC coming back is a HUGE deal.
Well it's ok that he doesn't like them but he probably shouldn't have any responsibility for such a franchise in that case because he doesn't understand the genra. He is right that a game should first and foremost feel good to play like Celeste do but having a good story will only highten the experience (like Celeste have).
Miyamoto suggested the they didn't need a story, but didn't say they had not do a story.
I'd not Miyamoto was calling the Sticker Mechanic and gameplay of Sticker Star boring, something people who played the game also said was boring and not fun.
I'd also note the team behind PM64, TTYD, and Super Paper Mario was a different team than the one behind.
Miyamoto may have the honor of creating beloved series like Mario and Zelda but he's also just an absolute dick at the same time.
Miyamoto deserves a lot of credit for what he's done. However, he's also a high and mighty curmudgeon for no reason and due to Japanese social politics his dislike of things weighs heavily on the whole company. Why does this man hate stories and RPGs so much? I genuinely dont understand it. If he wasnt so old id guess he had a bad experience with RPGs as a child and never grew out of the resulting dislike, but they didnt EXIST when he was a child
Damn it. I thought this was about the remake! Omh
Paper Mario has slipped a lot since and likely partly his fault
Starting to realize Miyamoto should stay faaaaar away from any future Mario RPG.
Ah yes, the crowd scenes, that's what keeps me playing! Never mind the bold and bizarre story, the characters, or the endlessly customizable badge system. No, the reason I keep playing TTYD is because I hold on to the hope that I might see 1000 identical things at once.../sarcasm
I'm sure Miyamoto contributed great insights into games like Mario and Zelda, but keep that man away from any decision making on RPGs.
I like to hate on miyamoto for what he did with the series but i gotta appreciate how his reluctance to approve ttyd resulted in one of the greatest RPGs ever. The mandates were an absolute disaster, but pushing a team to do better can do wonderful things
Shigeru Miyamoto Is the reason Paper Mario left its roots hence why Sticker Star was created onward, also wants devs to try new things but can't seems to do that with the star fox franchise
LOL, true
@@Woodenspade Miyamoto said that he has no interesting in make a new Starfox unless he can come up with a new gameplay idea for it.
In other words he feels that SF 64 is so good he can't top it.
@@orangeslash1667 And this is a reply to my comment, why?
@@Woodenspade Because the one comment mentioned Star Fox and you responded to it.
@@orangeslash1667 Probably also the same reason we haven't gotten a new F-Zero game since GX lol
I want to like Miyamoto, he's a gaming legend no matter what anyone says. But he hates and consistently prevents my favorite game genre from being created by my favorite company. It's hard not to resent him
Thanks for the vid
my ears wont die
Awesome video! Very enjoyable!
The only Zelda game that was an RPG is the second one. Although it was a platforming RPG.
You’re telling me this game got built because of a relatively high quantity of on screen sprites? Thats disgusting
The day that Miyamoto retires will be an interesting one for sure...
More remasters!!!????
I have remastered this video, you're welcome.
Hi😊@@VideoGameStoryTime
@@VideoGameStoryTime thanks!
I’m sorry but you really sound like supermarket announcement lady