GW broke me on Codices in 9th with the Astra Militarum codex, which came out so late in the edition that I never actually got to play a game with it before the 10th ed. clean sweep. On a side note, GW’s strict “if it is not in the box, it doesn’t exist” policy really hurts the part of the community that lean heavier in the modeling and painting part of the game.
@@XYZdude00 Are you serious? I saw very many valid complaints from WE players. "I had it worse so stop complaining" is a terrible argument for a situation that should have gamer solidarity over anti-consumer practices.
@@XYZdude00 World eater players got to use the CSM codex instead; and instead WE players complain about how their new codex rendered most of their models illegal and unusable.
The lore writers at GW missed a trick regarding the Tau. They could've easily explained why Tau don't have wide access to the new weapon types anymore by tying it into the rise of a resurgent Votann. Newer lore suggests that Ion technology and the resources to make Ion tech actually comes from trade agreements between Tau and Votann. The lore writers could've written a story about escalating trade disputes and general tensions between the 2 factions leading to the Votann ceasing their trade agreements. This, coupled with the imperium becoming ever more aggressive and the galaxy generally becoming more hostile than ever means the Tau are finding their resources being stretched too thin. The writers could have made a big deal out of 'this is the 1st time in Tau history where unfailing technological process has finally been halted.' 'This is the 1st time in Tau history where the Ethereals realise just how badly they've bitten off more than they can chew, and although the general Tau populace never finds out about it, more and more Tau commanders are being told to limit their use of the shiny new guns that had finally just come out of the research and testing phase. Would've been a great way to show how the Tau are finally coming to grips with just how outnumbered they truly are, and lore about them having to ration supplies of new tech would've helped ease the blow of losing access to these guns on regular squads/ helped explain why the Tau have a new doctrine of only fielding 3 battlesuits per squad instead of the glorious 6 man squads they used to regularly employ with no issue
@@zarlus8 indeed. So many lost opportunities. So many ways they could have turned a purely financial/ business decision into a fluffy source of story telling in an ever evolving narrative. It's possible we might have got lore like this if A. GW still had the original Forgeworld authors around (They were great at 'grounding' warhammer lore and expanding the 'geopolitics' of the 41st milenium. The example I gave is actually partly inspired by the Taros campaign book they released in 2005. same vibes and ideas. Failing that, we might've still gotten fleshed out lore if the GW writers and people making the codexes weren't constantly being pushed onto the next project and forced to work with tiny deadlines. I have no insider knowledge on their work practises. But it's obvious GW don't give enough time and resources to their writing staff any more. Seems GW staff are forced upon the churn just as much as we the players are.
Because they have to force out a new edition every few years. By the time your army gets its codex they're already thinking of ideas for the next one. There's really no reason to keep churning them out like this, especially with the data cards, since new toys they want to sell can just have a card with the rules on them bundled in the box. You don't need to rewrite the entire book every time you want to refresh or update the army anymore. People argue about the game getting stagnant or whatever, but I really think you could come up with a core ruleset that fucking works and doesn't need to be constantly redone. It's INSANE that 40k has had ten editions already. You'd think all their money came from selling books rather than models...
You are too naive my friend. All that would have taken effort and love for the lore, and those are completely unnecessary for earning the investors ever more money. I already saw this happen in MTG, the quality of everything goes down as long as it translates to increasing dividends. Of course there is a breaking point where quality is too low and prices too high for even the whales to endure, but GW is far away from it still.
I felt this on so many levels. I'm a very slow painter, and I lovingly converted 30 conscripts (so basically: Guardsmen with lasguns) and modified them to fit in with the story I have going in my army. The minute I finished my unit, GW decided they don't make conscripts (although you can create an infantry squad with only lasguns just fine), so an entire 30 person unit is now obsolete. Yes, I know I can still use the models as 'normal' lasgunners. That's not the point. I entered the hobby when GW was motivating people to customize their armies, to create something unique. I don't really want to either repaint my already lovingly painted models, nor do I want to include diverging models into an infantry squad...
As someone who played during the 3rd-4th-5th-6th era of the game, every single time i see a headline like "my army is no longer legal" all i here is "first time?.meme"
As someone who came to 40k after being pissed on by Privateer Press I find it hard to really get pissed at a handful of units getting legends versus the entire faction getting shunted off to a legends ruleset that is deliberately worse than everything new.
I played forgeworld renegades and heretics - Trust me, it aint my first rodeo. But we have to present for people who might be new, so they understand whats going on
Yeah I started playing in 2nd ed blood angels, and literally the week after I finished painting my 5 person veteran assault marines with power fists and chainswords, they switched to 3rd ed. So like, my first experience with GW "updates" was my favourite unit becoming invalidated Then my next army was... Lost And The Damned... Then I pivoted to a Genestealer Cult... Which I sold off and bought an All Sanctioned Psykers IG build... So yeah, I have great luck when it comes to picking forces to Not Be There Anymore
I agree. They made a half hearted attempt at balancing some of the special weapon options, but completely fell flat on things that are just a flat upgrades. Instead of allowing for more options, pretty much every unit in the game has a specific way to take them and this is basically the only way you see them played.
I agree. They made a half hearted attempt at balancing some of the special weapon options, but completely fell flat on things that are just a flat upgrades. Instead of allowing for more options, pretty much every unit in the game has a specific way to take them and this is basically the only way you see them played.
Im surprised they didn't reuse the ETB Traitor Guard from BSF for Darktide. As a gateway game designed to get the videogame players onto the tabletop, building the minis is going to be the sticking point.
It really feels like GW is tripping over their own feet in trying to follow the trends set in AoS in terms of how weapon options work, and in doing so they're slamming face-first into their desk. Requiring WYSIWYG yet changing viable model composition with no way out just feels either scummy, stupid, or both. Weirdly enough, this has even affected some people waiting for the 4th edition of AoS. The things shown so far generally went over well (at least in the circles I am part of), but many are on edge because of how controversial the start of 10th ed was so far.
@@autumnlotus6250 Weapon options aren't just gone. The only thing we've seen in that regard is that Liberators no longer pick between +1 to save and +1 attack, a choice that pretty much always landed on the shields anyways. The Grandweapon options is still there, and there hasn't been a mention of weapon options as a whole being removed. Notably, the change also doesn't invalidate already built units contrary to what we see with these codices.
Re: Darktide/Killteam, the current Kill Team starter set is USD 90, and Darktide is USD 110. It's cheaper to get two full killteams, the rules, and some basic terrain for cheaper than daektide. So if it's designed as "kill team lite", it doesn't seem to do that well given the prices.
In times like these, as frustrating as it can be (9th edition guard player here), it is important to hold the idea that unless you play tournaments, you can kitbash, and house rules and modify data sheets as much as you want in conjunction with your gaming group. So I do XD.
@@autumnlotus6250We used to do that waaay back in the day. None of us could afford a new codex or replace half our armies, basically everyone in the gaming area of our store was playing the previous edition.
CSM got the Traitor Legions supplement, giving us legion rules for the first time since 3.5 (in 7th) the book was out about 4 months before 8th came and wiped it clean. In 8th we got codex 2.0, which was a sold book with 2 datasheet changes and 2 new pages of units - We then had 1 wound when space marines had 2 for 2 years. Chaos loves pain
the complete removal of actual choices for units, crisis suits being a huge example as you guys said here, is exactly why i just havent bothered at all with 10th edition. every new book since 8th, all i see is more and more loss of options to customise your army. this is why ive latched so hard onto Old World and Horus Heresy these days, as they still have all these options (and tbh just the gameplay in general is much more what i prefer to how 40k plays these days). I do also play AoS still, which has a similar lack of options to 40k, but the difference is thats its kind of always been that way, whereas watching 40k slowly change from one extreme to the other is a huge fun killer and just makes me not want to invest my time and effort into a game thats for all i know going to keep changing and making me have to redo my army every edition going forward.
I magnetised a storm surge to have arms, and interchangeable weapons, and waistline for transport purposes. It’s never seen a game, and if it did, it’d probably fall apart
I would be so livid. Hobbyists dont have the time or money to even keep up with all the constant changes, nevermind making the things we have been working on completely useless
I'm looking into Bolt Action after a couple years of 40K lurking. They've just announced the 3rd edition after 8 years, and all of the Campaign Supplement Books will still be valid and usable. And none of the minis appear to be deleted, just rules/points changes.
"Simplified not simple" has killed 40k for me, I have been slowly painting armies for myself and some friends who don't have time to paint for roughly two years, and I am at the point with my frustration with things like powerlevel in disguise, free war gear (none of my finished russes have sponsons) and losing numerous models and options to legends or the void itself, I am about at the point where I am just going to ask my friends how married they are to factions that aren't space marines, because as bad as some of the rules are in 30k, at least I don't have to worry about my models being sent to the shadow realm on a whim.
I'm so, SO dissapointed in the whole 10th edition effort sofar. I rejoined 40k after a 15 ish year absense, during 9th (about 2 years ago now), and I really enjoyed that edition. I don't play competitive at all, I did some crusade stuff and had a BLAST. The rules really allowed me to field my own kind of force the way I liked it, and still be decent on the table. My main army has been Tau since 3rd when they came out. I love the high tech feel of them, the drone helpers, the idea of having several different races working together for a unified goal. Then 9th ends, and we get the Index cards, and my god the entire army is just... lame now? I STRONGLY dislike the army rule, they got rid of drones as a thing, I'm just sad about the whole thing. But I figured, hey maybe once the codex drops, we'll have some cool detachments for me to make my own army again. Nah, we get 4. And they are the most uninspired things they could've done. Full Kroot (gotta make those new kroot models played somehow), Full battlesuits (which has never been my thing) or 2 detachments which SHOULD not even be detachments, but the army rule to begin with (the philosophies of war). And then I also have some custodes, figured I'd wait till the 10th codex before I really start them. And that book is ALSO mediocre as all hell. I'm quitting 40k for now. Me and a friend are going to start up a Necromunda campaign, and revel in fun rules, skirmish shenannigans, AND FREEDOM in modelling and listbuilding.
I'm old school so I really dislike the separate unit entries for different load outs for the same squad. Just feels like a lazy way to add more units to a codex
Interestingly (being a old guard player who kind of dropped out mid way through 8th after starting at the end for 4th) I’ve actually had more fun running games using the Fantasy Flight Only War rules. In a way it almost plays like an even more advanced and brutal version of Kill Team but instead of your armies/teams being a half dozen very similar people with a few specialists, everyone you roll up has unique stats, traits and skills, so you end up having so many interesting combos and stories that come out of game. Good example personally if you want to try. Roll up a standard squad of 10 guardsmen and 2 operator for a chimera. After that you can choose your enemy. Being that you seem to be major chaos players and tau players, If looking for an easy go at it, you can easily use the chaos cultists from the main book as your antagonist as well as a pair of chaos space marines. If you want to get a bit more advanced, you can get the Deathwatch books and bring over the Tau from there. A team of 3 crisis is a harrowing thing to deal with.
Great to hear your thoughts on the new codices, and love the new format. As a Harlequins 40k player I've been feeling for a while that GW are pulling back from almost every army except Space Marines. I guess Xenos just don't make them enough money.
If you guys get a chance, Rogue Trader is phenomenal! I got it back in December when it first released on a whim and it was my first anything of Warhammer and now I'm completely hooked into everything Warhammer!
Frankly, if you want crisis suits with stuff you actually want, your best bet is to switch to one page rules. It's also a lot easier to play, has most of 40k's abilities, and it's free.
So this is weird, but I swear Dave has a half-brother living in California. I just started watching that TV show SWAT outta boredom and the hockey player in S01E08 is Dave's double, unless you're moonlighting as an actor in between painting bad-ass models.
Is there no chance you guys would do a game of 4th? You can use your 3rd edition Chaos dex and just ally them with a "detachment" of guard (it's kind of a hidden thing, but you can just do two legal 1000 point armies together for one 2000 point army) for your traitor guard. And 4e Tau rock for crisis suits. GW isn't sending you guys free stuff, if the treadmill's not good fun to run on, why not give something else a try? Retro'ish 40k stuff has an audience, and I don't feel like people come to you for the cutting edge news anyway, they come for your projects and personality.
Enjoying the talking heads style videos. The coffee gags are great, but I feel like the "Tabletop Time is the show where" is a little too close to EonsOfBattle's intro and doesn't feel quite like your own thing.
I remember making veterans with shotguns and a heavy flamer as a shock squadron for my imperial guard, and painted up a chimera to run them around the field and get them in close, never got a single game with them and now I can’t even play them 🙃
Genuinely curious, can you still play with the army you made as like a home brew army or stick with a previous codex/mix and match. (I have never played a war hammer/GW game before) I know it wouldn’t be official or tournament play but I think a majority of the fun of tabletop games is gaming with friends. On another note. I really love all the kit bashing and painting you do. The new format is great.
Your asking the question wrong, it's not 'are our armies legal', it's 'what game system let's me play the army I want'. GW isn't the answer to everything.
In all honesty, they do need to straighten out both lore and units... They greenlight, retcon, banish, and neuter so many common and unique abilities that makes making armies to build and play seem more of a chore. Chaos should have similar or captured weapons that are from the Imperium I think. They literally raid the Imperium and other factions for souls and supplies!
I've been hearing that Traitor Guard are now weapon locked? Could you maybe share what that's looking like? I'm afraid my army as I envision it is dead in the water before I can even begin
@@TabletopTime Still crossing my fingers that Kriegsmen can have a radio and a plasma gun at the same time when their codex comes out. Not holding my breath.
@@TabletopTime Huh, weird, that's pretty much how the Index card treats them, and how I plan on running them too as backline objective holders. The way I kept hearing it, it sounded like they were gonna become Lasguns only. Glad to know that's not the case, thanks!
The chaos codex seems to be very fun , and powerful, out of multiple detachments. When my codex came out , it invalidated all but 1 model out my +2500pts army . And l was not happy. Good to see that after the custodes book, GW started to make books that people like.
I’m gonna be using a few of the tau legends units cause I got a yhvara recently and I spent a lot of time on my crisis suits so imma just use the legends
I love how every edition now, they nerf and remove more stuff from chaos and expect us to be excited about finally getting a codex. Why bother adding to my collection if theyre just gonna keep nerfing and removing my units?
Apparently all this all units must have whats in the box and only whats in the box happpening because and executive at GW who finally got power over the rules writing team has specifically made it so.
Guess he didn’t bother checking thier own kits since many of them have weapons not available anymore while other don’t even have enough of they weapons they are forcing on you!
It is Games Workshop thing to make your armies redundant, I gave up playing and collecting models in 2008 because they changed everything in 5th edition just too much. Originally they did new rules at 5 to 6 years, now they do it every 3 years, it is ridiculous, because we will have 11th edition in 1 year 7 months, just after they release the 10th Guard codex.
Dave really needs to work on his standup! On codexes, it’s clear that for 10th GW are trying to reconcile the whole free wargear with game balance, hence the cultists just having pistols and crisis suits having three set loadout variants. Realistically this is probably easier to balance than having the minutiae of points involved with wargear but it’s restrictive. Edit: Rogue Trader isn’t really within touching distance of BG3, it’s ok but it has super weird difficulty spikes and the story isn’t super engaging.
Do you like having neat, modifiable armies? Do you like knowing the stuff you just bought will be usable for the life of your army? Would you like to feel like you haven't wasted your time building a concept army that is totally rules compliant? Too bad. We're changing everything n ways that only tournament players will like, because that's who we cater to. Games Workshop: Because you won't move to a better game.
I don’t understand wargamers. You still have your armies, books, terrain. « Nah, can’t play these anymore because GW said so. Gotta buy the new models. » What?
The problem is finding common ground with your opponent. Easier in that regard to keep up with the release. Everyone would know what is relevant or not. But yes. I'd rather not play 10th edition.
Exactly! I'm getting into Killteam and decided that I don't give a flying fuck about competitive play so whatever version I have is the one I'll keep playing. There's absolutely no reason to update unless something's completely broken. I kinda understand the need to update if you play with random people in shops though.
People have been putting up with GW for far too long, in the past there were very few alternatives. But that just not the case anymore. There are a number of alternatives, and 3d printing makes it completely unnecessary to buy miniatures from GW.
I don't understand why the majority keep up with new editions, it makes sense to stick with 9th which is complete or whatever edition you find the most fun.
I’ve played Chaos since 97…. I am so done with GW. I do own 10th…. FOMO made me buy Leviathan. Not buying the codex. I am currently considering switching to OPR. But GW is laughing all the way to the bank.
As somebody who has been in the painting/modelling side of the hobby for years now, but hasn't actually gotten into the game, a lot of decisions GW has made recently have felt honestly really discouraging in terms of making me even want to even continue making models for possibly playing 40k/AoS. For every one new thing or lore change that seems like it could make for a cool new modelling project, they take away something that had existed with a nice bit of flavor. Hopefully the old cultist mob rules still exist in legends, but considering they are still a unit, if only a severely gutted one, I have my doubts.
I really don't like the free wargear push. It's a good idea for Combat Patrik/Spearhead, and for intro formats, but buying wargear and special items should be part of the game. If everything is special, nothing is.
I love my Tau army, but seriously, I feel like GW is making it harder and harder to play them the way I want to play. I wanted tons of versatile Crisis suits, loved my Crisis Commanders, and was so excited to see what the new codex had to offer. When you like the Index and Old Codex better it seems they really missed the mark.
Its obvious to me that as part of GWs YOU CANT USE MODELS FOR MORE THAN ONE THING!!! policy, they deliberately made cultists and traitor guard as divergent and different as they could. Almost like eventually Lost and the Damned will be a thing, Traitor Guard will leave their odd home in CSM codex, and cultists will be the distinct, pistol wielding mortals that remain
Kinda wild off on that kill team starter set price. $120 from GW themselves. Less if you go to one of the discount stores like Gap Games when they are in stock. Unless you are talking something different than the actual Starter Set.
You're correct! I completely forgot that product existed - I meant the myriad X vs Y boxes that have been a staple of kill team for two years. Then idk what this game is for at all!
@@TabletopTime ah yeah those boxes like Nightmare recently (though its a bit reduced in content I think), I've missed out every one of them I wanted. They seem to be a bit limited run. I've bought multiple of the starter set because it is a better way to get the models in it if you want both Krieg and Orks plust some terrain.
@@TabletopTime oh also on that what the game is for, I think it is like all the other Warhammer Quest games and things like that. A way to get others to see the games and the hobby. Plus they can put some of those models which have rules (for now) and that are unique sculps from Blackstone Fortress somewhere. Gotta get more use out of the moulds.
well i could probably trade a few of the auto pistol and combat weapons to dave for his great coat gasmask autocannon cultists (one specific sculpt) because i build crusaders out of them (And those got hard nerfed back in 2020 with at sisters codex which took away 10 model crusader squads
I looked up vashtor a week ago it said he was 190 I was planning on running him In a 2000 point iron warriors army Because my 1000 point list is already figured out And because he was 5 points less Then a Five man squad of chaos terminators I was going to get a proxy of him made That looks like a perturabo That never fell to chaos To join my loyalist iron Warrior army
And I was gonna have him with a few tanks Mainly rhinos because 75 points a single tank I could easily have 10 tanks With him At one ninety But now he's two thirty apparently Gives me much less reason to want to run him
"Data cards! Thanks GW, I'll definitely be using these for the next few years" Lol jk, will be redundant in 3 months when they change the stats because they're the worst for not play testing before launch...
LOL!! Love it!! What are you going to do, /NOT/ play 10th edition? Face it, you're stuck throwing out your built/painted and played models because GW "updated" their rules!
WYSIWYG is bull. kitbash your army however you want. give them whatever gear looks cool. it doesn't F'IN matter. you have to declare the loadout at the start of a game anyway. how is it a hot take that minitures don't need to look the same?
Deceptors are boring, but win games. 60 cultists and 30 legionnaires can just hold most enemies in their deployment zone until their turn four on average. It’s an oppressive way to play, and not fun for anyone
Kind of can put people off of joining if they keep changing what they can and can't use especially given how heavy customisation is a part of the hobby.
GW broke me on Codices in 9th with the Astra Militarum codex, which came out so late in the edition that I never actually got to play a game with it before the 10th ed. clean sweep. On a side note, GW’s strict “if it is not in the box, it doesn’t exist” policy really hurts the part of the community that lean heavier in the modeling and painting part of the game.
It's weird watching guard players complain about that when WE players has to deal with their codex coming out after and they had no complaints
@XYZdude00 WEs not complaining (i dont buy that at all) doesnt make IG players complaints unreasonable
@@XYZdude00 Are you serious? I saw very many valid complaints from WE players. "I had it worse so stop complaining" is a terrible argument for a situation that should have gamer solidarity over anti-consumer practices.
I bought books during lockdown that i never had a chance to use before they ushered in the next edition. stopped buying books after that
@@XYZdude00 World eater players got to use the CSM codex instead; and instead WE players complain about how their new codex rendered most of their models illegal and unusable.
The lore writers at GW missed a trick regarding the Tau. They could've easily explained why Tau don't have wide access to the new weapon types anymore by tying it into the rise of a resurgent Votann. Newer lore suggests that Ion technology and the resources to make Ion tech actually comes from trade agreements between Tau and Votann. The lore writers could've written a story about escalating trade disputes and general tensions between the 2 factions leading to the Votann ceasing their trade agreements. This, coupled with the imperium becoming ever more aggressive and the galaxy generally becoming more hostile than ever means the Tau are finding their resources being stretched too thin. The writers could have made a big deal out of 'this is the 1st time in Tau history where unfailing technological process has finally been halted.' 'This is the 1st time in Tau history where the Ethereals realise just how badly they've bitten off more than they can chew, and although the general Tau populace never finds out about it, more and more Tau commanders are being told to limit their use of the shiny new guns that had finally just come out of the research and testing phase. Would've been a great way to show how the Tau are finally coming to grips with just how outnumbered they truly are, and lore about them having to ration supplies of new tech would've helped ease the blow of losing access to these guns on regular squads/ helped explain why the Tau have a new doctrine of only fielding 3 battlesuits per squad instead of the glorious 6 man squads they used to regularly employ with no issue
That would be too much effort for GW.
Yup. This also would help to hand wave away the FW units we lost as well.
@@zarlus8 indeed. So many lost opportunities. So many ways they could have turned a purely financial/ business decision into a fluffy source of story telling in an ever evolving narrative.
It's possible we might have got lore like this if A. GW still had the original Forgeworld authors around (They were great at 'grounding' warhammer lore and expanding the 'geopolitics' of the 41st milenium. The example I gave is actually partly inspired by the Taros campaign book they released in 2005. same vibes and ideas.
Failing that, we might've still gotten fleshed out lore if the GW writers and people making the codexes weren't constantly being pushed onto the next project and forced to work with tiny deadlines. I have no insider knowledge on their work practises. But it's obvious GW don't give enough time and resources to their writing staff any more. Seems GW staff are forced upon the churn just as much as we the players are.
Because they have to force out a new edition every few years. By the time your army gets its codex they're already thinking of ideas for the next one.
There's really no reason to keep churning them out like this, especially with the data cards, since new toys they want to sell can just have a card with the rules on them bundled in the box. You don't need to rewrite the entire book every time you want to refresh or update the army anymore.
People argue about the game getting stagnant or whatever, but I really think you could come up with a core ruleset that fucking works and doesn't need to be constantly redone. It's INSANE that 40k has had ten editions already. You'd think all their money came from selling books rather than models...
You are too naive my friend. All that would have taken effort and love for the lore, and those are completely unnecessary for earning the investors ever more money. I already saw this happen in MTG, the quality of everything goes down as long as it translates to increasing dividends. Of course there is a breaking point where quality is too low and prices too high for even the whales to endure, but GW is far away from it still.
I felt this on so many levels. I'm a very slow painter, and I lovingly converted 30 conscripts (so basically: Guardsmen with lasguns) and modified them to fit in with the story I have going in my army. The minute I finished my unit, GW decided they don't make conscripts (although you can create an infantry squad with only lasguns just fine), so an entire 30 person unit is now obsolete. Yes, I know I can still use the models as 'normal' lasgunners. That's not the point. I entered the hobby when GW was motivating people to customize their armies, to create something unique. I don't really want to either repaint my already lovingly painted models, nor do I want to include diverging models into an infantry squad...
That sucks, the loss of conscripts was a loss for guard - Instead we now have 3 nearly identical datasheets for infantry squads, madness.
As someone who played during the 3rd-4th-5th-6th era of the game, every single time i see a headline like "my army is no longer legal" all i here is "first time?.meme"
As someone who came to 40k after being pissed on by Privateer Press I find it hard to really get pissed at a handful of units getting legends versus the entire faction getting shunted off to a legends ruleset that is deliberately worse than everything new.
I played forgeworld renegades and heretics - Trust me, it aint my first rodeo. But we have to present for people who might be new, so they understand whats going on
@@TabletopTime forgeworld corsairs....
Yeah I started playing in 2nd ed blood angels, and literally the week after I finished painting my 5 person veteran assault marines with power fists and chainswords, they switched to 3rd ed. So like, my first experience with GW "updates" was my favourite unit becoming invalidated
Then my next army was... Lost And The Damned...
Then I pivoted to a Genestealer Cult... Which I sold off
and bought an All Sanctioned Psykers IG build...
So yeah, I have great luck when it comes to picking forces to Not Be There Anymore
I’m sorry for your losses🫡
Getting rid of weapon costs has introduced so many problems for no reason
I agree. They made a half hearted attempt at balancing some of the special weapon options, but completely fell flat on things that are just a flat upgrades. Instead of allowing for more options, pretty much every unit in the game has a specific way to take them and this is basically the only way you see them played.
I agree. They made a half hearted attempt at balancing some of the special weapon options, but completely fell flat on things that are just a flat upgrades. Instead of allowing for more options, pretty much every unit in the game has a specific way to take them and this is basically the only way you see them played.
This combined with changing how Wound rolls work
Im surprised they didn't reuse the ETB Traitor Guard from BSF for Darktide.
As a gateway game designed to get the videogame players onto the tabletop, building the minis is going to be the sticking point.
It really feels like GW is tripping over their own feet in trying to follow the trends set in AoS in terms of how weapon options work, and in doing so they're slamming face-first into their desk. Requiring WYSIWYG yet changing viable model composition with no way out just feels either scummy, stupid, or both.
Weirdly enough, this has even affected some people waiting for the 4th edition of AoS. The things shown so far generally went over well (at least in the circles I am part of), but many are on edge because of how controversial the start of 10th ed was so far.
The big anger from 4e is the removal of weapon options entirely. It's Yet Another example of GW removing choice
@@autumnlotus6250 Weapon options aren't just gone. The only thing we've seen in that regard is that Liberators no longer pick between +1 to save and +1 attack, a choice that pretty much always landed on the shields anyways. The Grandweapon options is still there, and there hasn't been a mention of weapon options as a whole being removed.
Notably, the change also doesn't invalidate already built units contrary to what we see with these codices.
Re: Darktide/Killteam, the current Kill Team starter set is USD 90, and Darktide is USD 110. It's cheaper to get two full killteams, the rules, and some basic terrain for cheaper than daektide. So if it's designed as "kill team lite", it doesn't seem to do that well given the prices.
In times like these, as frustrating as it can be (9th edition guard player here), it is important to hold the idea that unless you play tournaments, you can kitbash, and house rules and modify data sheets as much as you want in conjunction with your gaming group.
So I do XD.
At that point people should just pick the edition they prefer and just ignore gw
@@autumnlotus6250We used to do that waaay back in the day. None of us could afford a new codex or replace half our armies, basically everyone in the gaming area of our store was playing the previous edition.
its illegal to make sakura tau illegal. Also that seinfeld coffee hair was on point
I'm thankful that I'm only a collector and fun player and not a tourny player. GW really know how to screw every last dime from their fans.
10th edition, and we still dont have models for unique characters for major legions like Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords...
If it's any consolation, Iron Warriors still don't have characters in Heresy, the game about Space marines legions, either.
The Tau codex really highlights that the complexity with 40k wasn't coming from wargear points..
Going the way of primaris where every loadout is a new unit with another confusing name so nobody knows wtf anything is anymore.
"Seen the new Primaris Obfuscator unit?"
"What makes them distinct?"
"...No idea."
CSM got the Traitor Legions supplement, giving us legion rules for the first time since 3.5 (in 7th) the book was out about 4 months before 8th came and wiped it clean.
In 8th we got codex 2.0, which was a sold book with 2 datasheet changes and 2 new pages of units - We then had 1 wound when space marines had 2 for 2 years. Chaos loves pain
the complete removal of actual choices for units, crisis suits being a huge example as you guys said here, is exactly why i just havent bothered at all with 10th edition. every new book since 8th, all i see is more and more loss of options to customise your army. this is why ive latched so hard onto Old World and Horus Heresy these days, as they still have all these options (and tbh just the gameplay in general is much more what i prefer to how 40k plays these days).
I do also play AoS still, which has a similar lack of options to 40k, but the difference is thats its kind of always been that way, whereas watching 40k slowly change from one extreme to the other is a huge fun killer and just makes me not want to invest my time and effort into a game thats for all i know going to keep changing and making me have to redo my army every edition going forward.
I'll just say it because someone has to: I guess you can still play your cultists and Crisis suits in OPR. 😊
I'm just highly amused how many different channels I watch that do warhammer on wednesdays with dude 1 and dude 2
Well, you can always use your models in OPR.
Yeah, it's almost like GW is trying to push OPR in place of Warhammer
honestly the best of both worlds; cool models and rules that support them
I magnetised a storm surge to have arms, and interchangeable weapons, and waistline for transport purposes. It’s never seen a game, and if it did, it’d probably fall apart
I would be so livid. Hobbyists dont have the time or money to even keep up with all the constant changes, nevermind making the things we have been working on completely useless
I'm looking into Bolt Action after a couple years of 40K lurking. They've just announced the 3rd edition after 8 years, and all of the Campaign Supplement Books will still be valid and usable. And none of the minis appear to be deleted, just rules/points changes.
"Simplified not simple" has killed 40k for me, I have been slowly painting armies for myself and some friends who don't have time to paint for roughly two years, and I am at the point with my frustration with things like powerlevel in disguise, free war gear (none of my finished russes have sponsons) and losing numerous models and options to legends or the void itself, I am about at the point where I am just going to ask my friends how married they are to factions that aren't space marines, because as bad as some of the rules are in 30k, at least I don't have to worry about my models being sent to the shadow realm on a whim.
Dave and Murray videos are just so deliciously nerdy. I like how each TTT duo combination feels entirely different heh.
I'm so, SO dissapointed in the whole 10th edition effort sofar. I rejoined 40k after a 15 ish year absense, during 9th (about 2 years ago now), and I really enjoyed that edition. I don't play competitive at all, I did some crusade stuff and had a BLAST. The rules really allowed me to field my own kind of force the way I liked it, and still be decent on the table. My main army has been Tau since 3rd when they came out. I love the high tech feel of them, the drone helpers, the idea of having several different races working together for a unified goal. Then 9th ends, and we get the Index cards, and my god the entire army is just... lame now? I STRONGLY dislike the army rule, they got rid of drones as a thing, I'm just sad about the whole thing. But I figured, hey maybe once the codex drops, we'll have some cool detachments for me to make my own army again. Nah, we get 4. And they are the most uninspired things they could've done. Full Kroot (gotta make those new kroot models played somehow), Full battlesuits (which has never been my thing) or 2 detachments which SHOULD not even be detachments, but the army rule to begin with (the philosophies of war).
And then I also have some custodes, figured I'd wait till the 10th codex before I really start them. And that book is ALSO mediocre as all hell.
I'm quitting 40k for now. Me and a friend are going to start up a Necromunda campaign, and revel in fun rules, skirmish shenannigans, AND FREEDOM in modelling and listbuilding.
I'm old school so I really dislike the separate unit entries for different load outs for the same squad. Just feels like a lazy way to add more units to a codex
We agree wholeheartedly. I dont need 4 different imperial guard infantry squads and 2 different command squads that are all almost identical
Dave that Defiler looks awesome. Can't wait to see you build it.
I knew that the free wargear design choice would end up like this. There was no other way.
Welcome to the world of beastmen players
Interestingly (being a old guard player who kind of dropped out mid way through 8th after starting at the end for 4th) I’ve actually had more fun running games using the Fantasy Flight Only War rules.
In a way it almost plays like an even more advanced and brutal version of Kill Team but instead of your armies/teams being a half dozen very similar people with a few specialists, everyone you roll up has unique stats, traits and skills, so you end up having so many interesting combos and stories that come out of game.
Good example personally if you want to try.
Roll up a standard squad of 10 guardsmen and 2 operator for a chimera.
After that you can choose your enemy. Being that you seem to be major chaos players and tau players, If looking for an easy go at it, you can easily use the chaos cultists from the main book as your antagonist as well as a pair of chaos space marines.
If you want to get a bit more advanced, you can get the Deathwatch books and bring over the Tau from there.
A team of 3 crisis is a harrowing thing to deal with.
Great to hear your thoughts on the new codices, and love the new format. As a Harlequins 40k player I've been feeling for a while that GW are pulling back from almost every army except Space Marines. I guess Xenos just don't make them enough money.
If you guys get a chance, Rogue Trader is phenomenal! I got it back in December when it first released on a whim and it was my first anything of Warhammer and now I'm completely hooked into everything Warhammer!
You can't even build a legal Crysis suit unit with the kit now... 😅not enough repeat of the wpns.
Think it time to go “thanks for the cool book but we’ll take it from here”
Frankly, if you want crisis suits with stuff you actually want, your best bet is to switch to one page rules. It's also a lot easier to play, has most of 40k's abilities, and it's free.
So this is weird, but I swear Dave has a half-brother living in California. I just started watching that TV show SWAT outta boredom and the hockey player in S01E08 is Dave's double, unless you're moonlighting as an actor in between painting bad-ass models.
damn that seinfeld bit though xD what a show !
Is there no chance you guys would do a game of 4th? You can use your 3rd edition Chaos dex and just ally them with a "detachment" of guard (it's kind of a hidden thing, but you can just do two legal 1000 point armies together for one 2000 point army) for your traitor guard. And 4e Tau rock for crisis suits. GW isn't sending you guys free stuff, if the treadmill's not good fun to run on, why not give something else a try? Retro'ish 40k stuff has an audience, and I don't feel like people come to you for the cutting edge news anyway, they come for your projects and personality.
"Re-buying half your army every edition is part of the fun" - GW accounting department
That’s a really good seinfeld impression
"What's the deal with Coffee?"
The Fee; it's the in the name Jerry. But perky Melbourne bean juice? Giddy up.
I love the silly lil coffee bits in these vids so much
Enjoying the talking heads style videos. The coffee gags are great, but I feel like the "Tabletop Time is the show where" is a little too close to EonsOfBattle's intro and doesn't feel quite like your own thing.
The best chaos guard look imo are the Mobian 6th aka scabs (crap name but makes sense from loyalist view) from darktide.
just a FYI legionary auto cannons are no longer heavy but still on a bs 4+ ...... not sure if its a mistake or not
I really like these chat videos because you can critique GW legitimately without it just being whining.
For Skulls I hope the speed freaks game gets a launch day!
That intro was gold.
I remember making veterans with shotguns and a heavy flamer as a shock squadron for my imperial guard, and painted up a chimera to run them around the field and get them in close, never got a single game with them and now I can’t even play them 🙃
Genuinely curious, can you still play with the army you made as like a home brew army or
stick with a previous codex/mix and match. (I have never played a war hammer/GW game before) I know it wouldn’t be official or tournament play but I think a majority of the fun of tabletop games is gaming with friends.
On another note. I really love all the kit bashing and painting you do. The new format is great.
If you find someone who also wants to play a game of an older edition, you totally can do that. Nothing stopping casual games like that
Your asking the question wrong, it's not 'are our armies legal', it's 'what game system let's me play the army I want'. GW isn't the answer to everything.
Yep use to love it now it’s not even fun trying to find a game of it!
Xenos Rampant
@@danielv6906 I got that, as well as OPR. Good stuff all around.
In all honesty, they do need to straighten out both lore and units... They greenlight, retcon, banish, and neuter so many common and unique abilities that makes making armies to build and play seem more of a chore. Chaos should have similar or captured weapons that are from the Imperium I think. They literally raid the Imperium and other factions for souls and supplies!
They fled the heresy with heresy era equipment, many of whom basically timewarped into 40k ... yet have less access to heresy gear than loyalists..
I'm loving the vibes of the Wednesday uploads. That hair is glorious
I've been hearing that Traitor Guard are now weapon locked? Could you maybe share what that's looking like? I'm afraid my army as I envision it is dead in the water before I can even begin
They can take 3 special weapons but max 1 of each. I go sniper grenade launcher plasma gun for range
@@TabletopTime Still crossing my fingers that Kriegsmen can have a radio and a plasma gun at the same time when their codex comes out. Not holding my breath.
@@TabletopTime Huh, weird, that's pretty much how the Index card treats them, and how I plan on running them too as backline objective holders. The way I kept hearing it, it sounded like they were gonna become Lasguns only. Glad to know that's not the case, thanks!
The chaos codex seems to be very fun , and powerful, out of multiple detachments. When my codex came out , it invalidated all but 1 model out my +2500pts army . And l was not happy. Good to see that after the custodes book, GW started to make books that people like.
What army do you play?
I’m gonna be using a few of the tau legends units cause I got a yhvara recently and I spent a lot of time on my crisis suits so imma just use the legends
It looks like Murray's Battlesuits could do with a good dusting.
Thanks for another fun video.
Some of them are pretty old now lol
It’s too early for this ugh thanks love u
I love how every edition now, they nerf and remove more stuff from chaos and expect us to be excited about finally getting a codex. Why bother adding to my collection if theyre just gonna keep nerfing and removing my units?
Hilarious!!
I'm guessing you enjoyed the reference ;)
Apparently all this all units must have whats in the box and only whats in the box happpening because and executive at GW who finally got power over the rules writing team has specifically made it so.
Guess he didn’t bother checking thier own kits since many of them have weapons not available anymore while other don’t even have enough of they weapons they are forcing on you!
@@jeremyherndon2974 Yeah I know its terrible.
It is Games Workshop thing to make your armies redundant, I gave up playing and collecting models in 2008 because they changed everything in 5th edition just too much. Originally they did new rules at 5 to 6 years, now they do it every 3 years, it is ridiculous, because we will have 11th edition in 1 year 7 months, just after they release the 10th Guard codex.
Dave really needs to work on his standup! On codexes, it’s clear that for 10th GW are trying to reconcile the whole free wargear with game balance, hence the cultists just having pistols and crisis suits having three set loadout variants. Realistically this is probably easier to balance than having the minutiae of points involved with wargear but it’s restrictive.
Edit: Rogue Trader isn’t really within touching distance of BG3, it’s ok but it has super weird difficulty spikes and the story isn’t super engaging.
Do you like having neat, modifiable armies? Do you like knowing the stuff you just bought will be usable for the life of your army? Would you like to feel like you haven't wasted your time building a concept army that is totally rules compliant?
Too bad. We're changing everything n ways that only tournament players will like, because that's who we cater to.
Games Workshop: Because you won't move to a better game.
I don’t understand wargamers. You still have your armies, books, terrain.
« Nah, can’t play these anymore because GW said so. Gotta buy the new models. »
What?
rather absurd isn't it?
The problem is finding common ground with your opponent.
Easier in that regard to keep up with the release. Everyone would know what is relevant or not.
But yes. I'd rather not play 10th edition.
Exactly! I'm getting into Killteam and decided that I don't give a flying fuck about competitive play so whatever version I have is the one I'll keep playing. There's absolutely no reason to update unless something's completely broken.
I kinda understand the need to update if you play with random people in shops though.
People have been putting up with GW for far too long, in the past there were very few alternatives. But that just not the case anymore. There are a number of alternatives, and 3d printing makes it completely unnecessary to buy miniatures from GW.
I don't understand why the majority keep up with new editions, it makes sense to stick with 9th which is complete or whatever edition you find the most fun.
Dave seeing the points in the codex are shit. Me a custodes player: “first time?”
It would be cool to see you play Darktide board game.
TWRP mentioned, I didnt know you guys were cool like that! Hell yeah
Where IS the tabletop time lore library?? I can't find it anywhere, and I've wanted to read about it for a while.
Link is in the description of this video
I’ve played Chaos since 97…. I am so done with GW. I do own 10th…. FOMO made me buy Leviathan. Not buying the codex. I am currently considering switching to OPR. But GW is laughing all the way to the bank.
Idk why you'd buy the codex when you can just screenshot a single page of rules from a YT review and get the datasheets and points for free
As somebody who has been in the painting/modelling side of the hobby for years now, but hasn't actually gotten into the game, a lot of decisions GW has made recently have felt honestly really discouraging in terms of making me even want to even continue making models for possibly playing 40k/AoS. For every one new thing or lore change that seems like it could make for a cool new modelling project, they take away something that had existed with a nice bit of flavor. Hopefully the old cultist mob rules still exist in legends, but considering they are still a unit, if only a severely gutted one, I have my doubts.
I really don't like the free wargear push.
It's a good idea for Combat Patrik/Spearhead, and for intro formats, but buying wargear and special items should be part of the game.
If everything is special, nothing is.
I love my Tau army, but seriously, I feel like GW is making it harder and harder to play them the way I want to play. I wanted tons of versatile Crisis suits, loved my Crisis Commanders, and was so excited to see what the new codex had to offer. When you like the Index and Old Codex better it seems they really missed the mark.
This is why I play older editions with friends
Ha! loved the seinfeld bit
Maybe you should just play Grimdark future?
Someone can’t remember 4th to 6th edition tau when you could only take two of each gun and a support system!
I'm convinced that GW doesn't actually want modelers playing the game. That, or they want everyone to start a new army that fits what they want.
Half of my Ork army was gone, and that's why I'm not playing 40k any more. Invalidate my units, then GW can fuck off away from my wallet.
I'm 100% with you on not loving the new cultists. You hit the nail on the head describing them as Marauders with pistols, and I'm an really not a fan.
Its obvious to me that as part of GWs YOU CANT USE MODELS FOR MORE THAN ONE THING!!! policy, they deliberately made cultists and traitor guard as divergent and different as they could. Almost like eventually Lost and the Damned will be a thing, Traitor Guard will leave their odd home in CSM codex, and cultists will be the distinct, pistol wielding mortals that remain
Kinda wild off on that kill team starter set price. $120 from GW themselves. Less if you go to one of the discount stores like Gap Games when they are in stock. Unless you are talking something different than the actual Starter Set.
You're correct! I completely forgot that product existed - I meant the myriad X vs Y boxes that have been a staple of kill team for two years. Then idk what this game is for at all!
@@TabletopTime ah yeah those boxes like Nightmare recently (though its a bit reduced in content I think), I've missed out every one of them I wanted. They seem to be a bit limited run.
I've bought multiple of the starter set because it is a better way to get the models in it if you want both Krieg and Orks plust some terrain.
@@TabletopTime oh also on that what the game is for, I think it is like all the other Warhammer Quest games and things like that. A way to get others to see the games and the hobby.
Plus they can put some of those models which have rules (for now) and that are unique sculps from Blackstone Fortress somewhere. Gotta get more use out of the moulds.
Sounds like GW marketing strategy is working GREAT! Both of you need to buy MORE!
There’s a named Alpha legion character, and his name isn’t Alpharius? Heresy.
My cultists are out of ammo they're using their guns as clubs now
Fix bayonets
well i could probably trade a few of the auto pistol and combat weapons to dave for his great coat gasmask autocannon cultists (one specific sculpt) because i build crusaders out of them (And those got hard nerfed back in 2020 with at sisters codex which took away 10 model crusader squads
My army got gutted. So I'm not linger playing it until it's fixed
I looked up vashtor a week ago it said he was 190 I was planning on running him In a 2000 point iron warriors army Because my 1000 point list is already figured out And because he was 5 points less Then a Five man squad of chaos terminators I was going to get a proxy of him made That looks like a perturabo That never fell to chaos To join my loyalist iron Warrior army
And I was gonna have him with a few tanks Mainly rhinos because 75 points a single tank I could easily have 10 tanks With him At one ninety But now he's two thirty apparently Gives me much less reason to want to run him
He will be 230 for like 2 weeks. The codex is already obsolete mark my words
@@TabletopTime Well here's hoping cause you never know with g w
I mean... When a new edition comes out, all codices should come along with it. The way they're doing it just makes no sense at all.
"Data cards! Thanks GW, I'll definitely be using these for the next few years"
Lol jk, will be redundant in 3 months when they change the stats because they're the worst for not play testing before launch...
Coasters?
@@TabletopTime very pretty coasters at least
The deal with coffee: it's delicious!
LOL!! Love it!! What are you going to do, /NOT/ play 10th edition? Face it, you're stuck throwing out your built/painted and played models because GW "updated" their rules!
With one page rules all my models are current and able to be used
Also what is the point of buying a codex if points and rules are patched in a matter of a few months..
Alpha Legion meet up at next year's adeptacon
WYSIWYG is bull. kitbash your army however you want. give them whatever gear looks cool. it doesn't F'IN matter. you have to declare the loadout at the start of a game anyway. how is it a hot take that minitures don't need to look the same?
GW: "Got to sell more plastic! Make old models irrelevant!"
So what else is new?
Was that a TWRP mention?????
came here to say the same, lol
Oh yes it was
i hate the battlesuit change, i am happy i dont play 10th. i play alternate rulesets were all loadouts are viable and more fun :)
Play Darktide!
Deceptors are boring, but win games. 60 cultists and 30 legionnaires can just hold most enemies in their deployment zone until their turn four on average. It’s an oppressive way to play, and not fun for anyone
Darktide isn't going to make anyone try a miniatures game. $180 for 8 minis sounds insane to anyone not already drinking the koolaid
Kind of can put people off of joining if they keep changing what they can and can't use especially given how heavy customisation is a part of the hobby.