I Challenged Stockfish: Queen Vs Rook 😮 Queen vs Rook Endgame Practice - Advanced Chess Endgame
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2022
- Q vs R FEN: 8/8/8/3kr3/8/3KQ3/8/8 w - - 0 1
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"The ability to play chess is the sign of a gentleman. The ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life." - Paul Morphy.
Seriously. Who wants to study this endgame just to be slightly better in a couple potential games and forget the lessons anyways? Very painful
But then who’s Magnus? Vishy? Hikaru? They’re out there living their best life.
And yes I know Paul is considered a great chess player
@@marshallkimmathers Wasted life in intellectual sense (social cause) and not personal well being.
@@nix4110 I think these endgames aren't about general use but more about problem-solving. They aren't tips, kinda like watching someone play a video game. not for learning but for entertainment
The general way to beat the 3rd rank defence is to move the queen further away, so that you have access to a lot more checks.
Near the middle would be the best option also separating the enemy rook and the king by checking and blocking the king from nearing it's rook that way its easier to fork
then you switch corner to force king i figured out
I didn't knew it was this tricky to win a qween vs rook endgame
Now I don't feel that bad
I'm the king, no pun intended, at the rook forcing me to capture him with my queen.
I had a daily game where I had the queen, he had the rook. I just couldn't do it, we drew. That was when I realized that this was NOT an easy endgame, even if stockfish says +5
Rooks are seriously undervauled. Despite a mere 1pt difference, I have played 2 rooks vs queen and the queen never made it to move 3.
Queen vs Rook is a very hard endgame to win, I remember a story about an IM drawing a Grandmaster in the endgame because he was one of the world's leading experts in it. Doesn't help that some positions are Mate in >50 moves.
Queen*
I think a good idea would have been to swap places and see if Stockfish could mate you.
stockfish 100% woulda mated him with reversed roles
Agree, seems like good way to learn to mate with queen Vs rook.
A human and fish mating?? 😳
@@zenorite878 it’s how Magnus was born
@@zenorite878 why are you gay 🤔
I love how you don’t edit out mistakes or if things don’t go well. I learn from those mistakes too
Thanks for this video Nelson. It's helpful to see how you work through a problem you've never done before, as opposed to a prepared lesson. It illustrates how you think through positions and learn, which was very enlightening to me.
I would've just taken the draw by insufficient material 😅 saves me the absolute humiliation that would undoubtedly follow if I tried to win
Remember that your opponent is about as good or bad as you are. So they could blunder the rook to a fork if you keep trying
@@rykehuss3435 euhm, you do know the opponent is stockfish right?
@@somerandomweeb4836 For some reason I thought he was talking about if he gets into that endgame in a real match
Except that it's not insufficient material. Both sides could potentially win.
@@reubenmanzo2054 I think you misunderstood my comment, in the position in the thumbnail, I would've taken blacks rook with my queen and drawn stockfish
I love the variety of videos on this channel, it’s just one of the many things that make it great!
Congratulations - it was fascinating to see the learning process of an accomplished and serious player. Great video.
Oh boy, I remember how tough it was when I was studying this endgame. However, studying it helped me twice to win with a queen and once even to draw with a rook.
At 2.20 doesn't h7 win the rook?
@@34Zero carefully, black's move on 2:20 was with check.
@@34Zero i’m thinking at 2:10 queen to C5 gives a fork. or am I missing something
@@tristan6773 King F4 or E4 both would protect the rook after Queen C5 check
@@aura809 thx
I think i’m about to get into chess. idk how these chess videos came up.
Looks easy enough; only four pieces. Involves some of t he most subtle concepts of chess.
Very cool!
This one is amazingly complicated, I've looked at it on and off for more than 5 years and still it holds on to several secrets
Great video as always! Had a question: Will you be continuing that Proof games series?
Maybe eventually! Saw your email as well! It'll probably be a while though before I get back to proof games tbh.
Ah, ok, np! Was wondering if you had got the email or not, lol.
Best way to beat Stockfish is to downclock her CPU.
not enough, even stockfish running in an old cellphone could beat a gm
I have an old Pentium 2 on this its easy to beat
Great video!
maybe give stockfish queen and have a rook yourself and see how it wins
Really an awesome and one of the most difficult endgames. It's even harder than bishop and knight checkmate for me.
it is supposed to be harder than the bishop vs knight mate which is technically elementary
NO IT IS NOT
This is one of the most difficult end games. I tried playing my computer this end game a few years ago and could not win against a lone rook. The irony is if black has an extra pawn it is easier to beat him, because there are no more stalemate tricks!
No but then it will try to promote the pawn keeping rook behind and king with rook .so our king will be infronþ of the pawn and and queen will be hoping to fork something
That was a satisfying checkmate.
this is one of my most haunting drawn endgames that kept me from a norm at a key moment in my life. was a humiliating draw. i'd looked down on beginner endgame books like silman's. but it's these tough beats that force you to learn things in a way that you'll never forget.
2:59 you could have forked the rook and the king, therefore creating the advantage
Stockfish would've just moved the king up to protect the rook tho
pov 4 elo
I love your videos
Two words: Derek Grimmell. When the future of civilization depends on someone solving a Queen vs. Rook problem, Derek will be on the black helicopter landing at the White House. He has a whole series of videos along with a ginormous ChessBase DB covering just this problem. I'm a crap chess player, but I've gotten obsessed with figuring this out and have spent literally hundreds of hours on it - and I haven't even finished all the Grimmell content. I found that I could (usually) solve the problem shown by Nelson, all the while muttering things like "No, form a Cage here. Ah, he's gone to a Distant Defense. Cover that checking square. Here you check adjacent to the rook's diagonal. Hah! I can form the Javelin - you are totally mine now bwahaha!" Look at the Grimmell videos, and consign yourself to the fact that Queen vs. Rook is between 10 and 100 times harder than King+Bishop+Knight vs. King.
Thanks!
hello aspiring chess player! I need your advice! I have downloaded the database of Derek Grimmel but it is a huge volume of positions and as you are a graduate on this I would like to ask you if I have to study all of them or I can study the most important of them.. thanks
@@nekp2034 If you want to cover all situations... then yeah, I think you have to cover them all. Derek seems to think that it only takes about 25 hours to go through everything, but it took me at least 10x that. Maybe he's talking GM level. Honestly, if you are simply interested in increasing your overall rating you are probably better spending your time on something else. In my limited experience I have never encountered a queen/rook endgame, but I have played several rook/pawn endgames, and learning the latter should help you win/draw more endgames.
@@francissmall3529 I know this endgame isn't practically much usefull but it fascinates me and I want to learn it. So what should I do? just to study the positions in a row?
@@nekp2034 That's what I did. They do tend to build on one another.
Good checkmate, Nelson.
nice going!
i think the camp mate king rule makes endgames more intresting (if kings goes to the last rank its a win)
but thats also fun
6:16, fork to capture the rook? Better to just go Qa4#.
I like this video because so many focus too much on the Lucena and Philidor positions. And I'm sitting here thinking that I don't know how to force them in the first place. So its nice to know its actually not easy.
6:16
Mate in 1
Goes for a fork instead.
Chad move, show the machine your human superiority.
where is mate in 1?
@@reachdbd815 queen to a4
@@pradyuniyer7508 not m in 1 but a fork
@@pradyuniyer7508 he played qa4
this ending fascinates me and i'd like to learn it even if it isn't practically much usefull.. is there any course for this?
Thanks a million, do you think that ,Now, you can give us some advice on how to defend with R against Q
your effort is greatly appreciated.
17:50 Black Rh6, white Qf7 or Qf3
(Blocking Rh7+ and threatening Qf8+ with fork on rook)
This end game is so much harder than I thought it would be. I spent like two hours figuring it out myself without help today. I wish I'd watched your video first.
please make a video on two knights Vs a pawn checkmate
2:08 you move your queen to c5
bruh fork
wont work black can move the king to f4 or e4
@@mrunknown4647 and he takes the rook
Bruh he can block with rook bruh y'all crazy@@powch9717
Great!
at 2:59 u could do Qg1 which will force the king to move and a free rook
My very first thought at @2:22 of the video is work it like all you have is pawns and a king and you're trying to work the king into a corner work the king into a corner with your queen and your king
you should also try this against a human who knows the basic ideas to defend this position
This video makes me feel much better about this endgame. Even a GM like Nelson finds Queen vs Rook difficult.
Can you set it up as Stockfish vs. Stockfish?
Could've moved queen to e3 to e4 forked the rook and King took rook but I don't know if it's auto matic win as its it could be insufficient pieces so yeah missed that
Tq man
Very nice
The 3 hardest endgames to play.
1) King and Queen vs King and Queen.
2) King and ONE rook vs King and ONE rook
3) King and TWO rook vs King and TWO Rook.
These positions are drawn assuming that the initial position is fair for both players
the actual hardest endgames:
1. king+horsey+bishop against king
2. kingn + 2 horseys (drawn assuming perfect moves and fair start, but possible to pull off if opponent makes inaccurate move)
In position King f6, Qb5, Rc7, Kc8 - if black goes Rc1. How can white block them in the same corner?
See the Study of Derek Grimmel (2008) about this endgame (Queen vs Rook). There are 21 positions: Philidor, diagonal1, diagonal2, diamond, bodycheck, Euwe_turnWhites, Euwe_turnBlack, corner defence, absolute 7th, 3rd rank defence, 4th rank defence(=harasment defence), 5th rank defence (by Grigoriev), ect.
i have seen the mate in two in one of the positions in your 2 game it was when your Kc6 and then Qg8# oh yeah obviously stockfish would try to stop but the game will just be longer and you would win
Thanks for sharing this. The queen vs rook endgame is indeed difficult to win.
i once had this kind of endgame in a match and i had the rook
it ended in a draw
i never knew it was winnable
I followed computer chess progress relatively closely from the early 80's through the point Deep Blue beat Kasparov in the 1987 match. After writing a decent program as a final project in college for credit, and being very interested in tournament chess, it was pretty natural to follow the literature and watch the progress (with top GM's strenuously denying computers would ever beat top GM's the whole time -- though the math re search depth and strength CLEARLY showed otherwise as computers kept getting faster).
Computers got good enough in the 90's that they forced chess ending theory to evolve. Larry Christiansen, a top GM at the time, couldn't win a "won, per current theory" game with a K+Q vs. K+R endgame in some major tournament with some strong computers playing.
The problem was that when normally, a human with K+R would keep the rook near the king to avoid being forked. But at the critical juncture, the computer would move the rook way away, forcing the human to find a fork. And in the positions that was happening, Christiansen wouldn't find such a fork OTB.
I don't remember the exact date, the tournament, etc. but I do remember the principle.
Like you, Christiansen went home, studied the endgame, and found how to beat the computer against that defense. But it's interesting (and unsurprising),
Given Christiansen was a top GM, he had to study the thing, he was pursuing the win under tournament (slow) conditions, NOT 3 minute chess, and that Stockfish might be playing better for this position than whatever strong program was doing 30ish years ago -- you did DAMN well, even if you can't do it every single time.
Plus, generally, humans will NOT want to separate the K and R in that ending, given how hard it is to find ALL the forks several moves ahead (exhausting over time -- you WILL miss something against a strong opponent playing the K+Q side).
So interesting, and I'm surprised you were able to win AT ALL in 3 minutes (nothing against you -- more about the state of computer chess in difficult positions against humans). Thanks for putting this together.
really good idea to have.
You needed to use more pins. In this endgame, the opponent usually has around 4 king moves and 12 rook moves to choose from. A pin forces your opponent to choose from about 75% fewer moves.
If you move the queen to e4 here isnt it a fork? 2:59 if not please tell me why i cant figure it out
No because the king will move to h5 and will protect the rook
3:43 actually if queen f4 check and rook blocks than queen to h2 is mate
Study John Nunns chapter on the subject in Secrets of Pawnless Endings. Also, there is a course you can downlaod for free.
how do you use stockfish? what programs / software do you use?
i'm really new to this
Chess.com and lichess.org both have analysis features that use stockfish to help you analyze. For example: lichess.org/analysis
@@ChessVibesOfficial ok i see, thank you, what if i want to use the latest version of stockfish on windows?
Reading comments and realizing .. Y'all know this dude is way better than most of us put together right... the Depth .. .. . Of how crazy people are. ';..;'
great, now time to do 2 bishops vs knight
I believe that 2 bishops vs knight is usually a draw because of the fifty move rule.
4:15 why didn't he take the rook by the king??
Black king would have no spaces to move to, thus a stalemate
Its stalemate do not take rook
18:08, he didnt move his rook to the h file cause queen d5 checks and you can figure it out from their
Have you done pawn and rook vs queen?
Chess is just like a wheel, whenever you checked his king it will move and whenever you've been checked by his rook, your king will move
Nice
Ouch, tricky one ! Who spend his time to learn how to defend like an engine anyway...? This endgame especially get recognized as one of the hardest one since computer era. It's fun to learn, but less than the old BN mate.
great....it's all day i'm trying.....it's no joke.......
3.50 you should have placed the queen on E4... he had to move the king so you could take the rook...or he had to block with the rook, you could take the rook and his king couldnt take the queen or escape caus your king did protect him
at 3:02 would ke4 been a good move?
Endgame tablebase... Is maybe a good method from try to learn
now i know how to play this
13:30 Soundtrack - "I think I can fight with Mike Tyson"
I thik at 4.05 minits on the video you have to move the king at f4, and the next move is checkmate
At the start you could have like 3 Forks if im not dumb, but im not good at chess
if at 8:05 you moved your queen down to B5, would it have been a fork?
Nope.. Then the king goes to e6 and you can't take the rook.
How about do formal checkmate?
4:10 подскажите почему король не может срубить а просто уходит
I was getting frustrated trying to figure out this endgame. Probably never will, but now I don't feel so bad.
2:07
He missed c 5 with the queen,it checks the king and if he moves it he takes the rook
Re5 defends this.
@@grawr09382 oh gosh, you're right. I was already calling him blind but it was me who wasn't seeing 😅
6:16 why do you need to fork if it is mate queen a4?
At 11:49 if you shimmy down the a,b file using a series of checks from the queen you will eventually fork the rook-lights out.
Dude 17:00 I totally called it!
It feels good to be learning , I wish I had friends that played chess.
The rook will block if you try that
Playing magnus is not very easy. It always knows the best move
Ah so you can just input any position by going through each row from top to bottom with number = amount of empty squares, upper-case letters = white pieces, lower-case letters = black pieces? That's cool
3:04 Qe4+ fork? Just missed, or is there another reason I am a dodo?
At 2.20 mark doesnt qh7 win the rook? Or am I seeing my own things
if he does 3rd rank defens your king cant come to square he want, then try another corner to push king into
at 6:14 you have mate in 1 after ka6, I’m sure this is for learning purposes, I just found it amusing
What is the name of the book?
3:35 QE4 ?
I'm sure somone will tell me otherwise. But this wins rook with check ?
You had a fork near the beginning
6:15 QA4+ is mate, better than fork
at 19:10 Kd5 would actually reach that critical position, but with Black to move instead of White.
2.20 queen to h7 wins rook
@@34Zero white's king is in check in that position at 2:20 so white doesn't have time to play Qh7.
When I saw this I was like "wait, this is a win for white?"
At 3:47 you couldve just moved the queen to e4 forking the rook and the king. If the rook moved infront of the queen you couldve simply taken it and won
The black king can move on h3 if you do that.
3:42 queen e6 to cover g4 when you move your king down sp he cant check you and then mate at the back after qe6 kf4
qe6 Rf2+
What if the rook went f2?
6:16 is a4 checkmate or a1 check and take the rook with checkmate
Queen d4 at start forking the queen and rook, after this the best thing black can get is king vs king stalemate
0:34 just move one square left for a pin which puts him in check
2:11 fork on c5
5:50 put queen in corner
9:35 up with queen forces his king down and closer to corner
How can i play vs stockfish?
I wasted my time learning this a year ago and now I can't remember how to force the king to the corner to be able to seperate the rook and king
Need to know how checkmate youre opponent with queen vs rook
Did I miss something? Or was there an opportunity for a skewer at 3:04 ish
no there wasnt