Blizzard forced terran to trade Spidermines, Science Vessels, and Firebats to Zerg in the form of Banelings, Vipers, and Roaches. In return, Terran got Guardians and Infested Terrans in the form of Banshees and Widow mines...at the expense of that and Wraiths which is a terrible trade off. I still would take Goliaths over Vikings, Cyclones, and Thors. There's no doubt that Blizzard's developers favored Zerg in SC2 even though the best unit, the Hydra, was and is still somewhat unusable because banelings are just flat out better since they're basically controllable spidermines. Who cares about anti-air with the attacking army when you can just obliterate 1/3-1/5th of the opponent's economy or 1/2 to 2/3's of their ground units within a few seconds?
Pretty spot on,but imagine.... A 2 hour game in hots,a battlefield full of spider mines vs a full army of swarm hosts.the ultimate snooze fest which would result in an inevitable protoss nerf lol
If you want to see one interpretation of Vultures in SC2's engine, there's always Starbow. It's not actually as bad as it would seem, since unlike Widow Mines, they have to reveal themselves for a second or so before attacking. SC2's better attack AI lets opposing units target them decently reliably if on A-move and nothing else is distracting them.
Insane, just as was point defense drone of the raven. The PDD invalidated entire unites just based on whether the PDD worked on their projectiles and whether it fired fast to burn through the energy. It was just too good, I guess Interference matrix is easier to work around.
When SC2 first started, there was no reaper. Hellion was the intended replacement for reaper. Reaper was added later as an additional early-game harass unit. Plus, vultures and hellions come at the exact same tech stage... factory.
@@Pravanul as far as i remember reaper was there from the begining, but it had different 'skills', he could demolish buildings in seconds. And helion came much later
Nah no way. Vultures are used both in harass and armies long into the game. Most games have only one reaper if that, occasionally you might go up to 3 or 5 in the very early game.
@@Pravanul you might be thinking hellbat. Reaper was shown in the debut alpha demo because they were used to show off the new cliff interaction tech along with the colossi.
Sometimes I feel like Blizz is just thinking "God I hate something that shares a role" and should instead be thinking "So we have two units that share the same role, what if we spice things and add different traits to make em both appealing for different tactics this way could create interesting plays". It's true some units would need pretty big modifications to make em viable without too much cheese or ridiculousness but that aint the philosophy of SC2 where cheese is basically the universe.
Yeah honestly I would've loved just more units in general for their variety. Some of the things that make Broodwar so much fun is that there are some crappy units and abilities that are still included in the game even if they aren't vaible. This introduces creativity instead of SC2 where we see the exact same unit comps every time. And for casual games like 4v4 etc, the addition of extra units and abilities is fun and adds to the chaos but sc2 is anti fun.
Way before the Raven, they tried the Nomad, which was supposedly the replacement for the Science Vessel. It has the ability to deploy auto-turrets. People complained about the looks of the unit (same as the first infestor design), and they changed it for the Raven we all know.
A theory: - They decided to nerf the spider mines and replaced them with widow mines. - They decided to buff the secondary bio unit. Firebats were replaced with marauders so they can shoot at range with the marines. - But the melee splash option still had enough utility not to be scrapped altogether. After exploring options, they decided to give flamethrowers to the mine-less vulture, giving birth to hellions. - The wraiths' anti-air role had been taken over by the goliaths, while their cloaked air-to-ground role really could use more DPS. So they split the wraith into the viking and banshee. Goliaths were effectively removed from their anti-air role and their ground attack was given to the viking. But that was only just in case, since the marauders could already play the role of tanky infantry. The viking also had to switch modes between ground-only goliath and air-only wraith, because otherwise it would have been a flying goliath, and that's kind of OP. I also want to take a moment to appreciate the evolution of starcraft air units that happened in Brood War. Terran got valkyries and protoss got corsairs, both of which dealt splash damage. Meanwhile, zerg got the devourers, which dealt a high (and very slow) single target damage. I think this is a testament that massing mutas worked since the game's first iteration, while they weren't any good at dealing with capital ships. Did the respective additions serve all of the designers' intended purposes? Probably not, as was the case with the devourer. But there was also a lot of happy accidents. The whole competitive scene was, in a way, a happy accident. Who knew how far people could go with this game?
It's worth noting: -Mutalisk stacking like we see today didn't exist until ~2004-2005 with Julyzerg mastering it as a pro. -A strong corsair build didn't arrive until ~2006 with BIsu. You could do the same trick as zerg with muta by trapping a probe. -Valkyries were a buggy unit in original BW because of the games engine literally firing the missiles reliably. It wasn't until remastered that they've become more popular because the game engine could handle them properly, especially with multiple of them. It's just this passed year [2023] where Terrans have done mass valk and do the somewhat obvious thing of aggressively hunt overlords (like Corsairs have done forever).
@@shadowling77777 Lowers attack speed and each stack causes the units to take 1 more damage. Good for map designs that force huge air wars, but not competitive play.
@@Zraknul "-Valkyries were a buggy unit in original BW because of the games engine literally firing the missiles reliably." Please explain this statement. I may have played Brood War before, but I was very young when I did, so I wouldn't have understood the mechanics of how they worked.
Exactly, the argument they shouldn't put an old unit in because a new one exists already is the exact opposite of reality. Why put time and effort developing a new unit when an old unit already EXISTS. The real answer is they wanted to change the meta to fit a different vision than Brood War's slow brawls.
@user-pf5vw2gx1w yeah I would've liked to see the Science Vessel get a new lease on life. That way the mentality could be that the Raven is a more offensively focused aerial caster, and the Science Vessel a more Defensively focused caster. Plus SCVs for repair? Scv repairs take resources whereas the SV would just be energy. It'd be in the same vein as Shield Batteries for protoss, and Transfuse for Zerg. Maybe it doesn't even need irradiate because Snipe exists (but it is an iconic ability so maybe retune it to fit current meta? Idk I'm not a dev)
So, it's hard to be splitting your units constantly to avoid irradiation, but it's easy to be splitting your units against dozens of banelings, or disruptor shots... yeah, right XD
@@abordwaylong1339 so is the lurker. What is your point? Besides... all terran aoe units (and protoss) do friendly damage. Can you name ONE zerg unit/skill/ability that deals friendly fire?
"Given the oppurtunity, players will opmitize the fun out of the game" Competitive games are brutally hard to balance, because they need to make the game playable and fair for the world champions (and their audience). So 1-200 players can have fun, the rest is "learning the game" :D I think in years the first patch that actually helped lower leagues was the carrier "nerf" by lowering the interceptiors priority. So lower leagues can now A-move against skytoss with better winrate now.
As a BW fanboy, I honestly think they made a good job with the units in SC2 (design, balance, etc) The problem is how they stack, and how many you can control at once. And also the high-ground advantage. I wish SC3 could combine both!
@@tiborsipos1174 And not,they don't need to balance around the best of the best,tehy need to balance for us.Esports is not the mayority of this game dude,that type of thinking is killing a lot of games
So... Terrans kept the Marine, the Siege Tank, the SCV, the Battlecruiser and the Ghost? The Battlecruiser was changed significantly too, so it's almost completely different than its Brood War equivalent.
Ah, my trusty vulture. That little speed demon got me out of more scrapes than I care to admit. I miss the sound of those spider mines popping like popcorn as we left a trail of destruction behind us. But hey, every dog has its day, and every vulture has its last ride. Maybe it's time to get myself a shiny new ride. Any suggestions?
"Here in the SC2 development team, we do our best to find units that fill a role that can't really be done by any other kinds of units. It is part of our design philophy after all!" >Queens can do everything short of cleaning laundry and could easily be fitted into any composition if need be >Mothership core has been a thing >Most Terran units fail to fill their role to such a degree that Marines often just take their place. Great design, Blizzard. Good job.
not to mention they made defense building obsolete, building lots of defense structures guarantees you will lose the very first army that shows up. static defenses melt way to quickly and are basically rarely built other than to stop flying harassers and even then you can easily drop an army on canons or bunkers and still win.
As someone whose only played the campaign, I find the MP of starcraft really disappointing, i get that you can't have stuff like the lab or unit upgrades like the ones you buy with cash, but it feels deeply wrong to cut units because they wouldn't be very useful or redundant, when they are already fully made units in the game, if they are gonna be weak then there's no reason not to have them in the game because it's not like your enemt can force you to build those weak units, you should have a few options in how you do something, and in particular the wraith, a stealth fighter is really cool and worked well with the banshee, snipe the detector regardless of if it's air or ground and you have a few units to harass the enemy, even if the spector was identical stat wise to ghosts just having a little bit of variety in the models and voice lines would be nice, particularly when the spector has multiple missions deadicated towards there story in the game
There's a lot of BS in this. If you don't replace the vulture, you don't have the hellion and you wouldn't need to scrap the firebat. And in the end, they just changed the unit's production building and the looks (Hellbat). Also the medic... Blizzard was going crazy cause they didn't know what to do with the reaper. The unit had an specific role and didn't have access to healing cause their mobility (medics couldn't follow) . Which was funny, cause lorewise the reapers didn't last for long in combat. But they wanted to give them access to heal, so they scrapped the medic and gave the healing ability to the dropship. Same stupidity with the Goliath. They stated that it was replaced cause it was very limited due to its mobility. So they changed the Thor (which was an assault juggernaut) to make it an anti-air unit. Funny enough, cause you take out the goliath for limited mobility, yet put instead an oversized, slow, clunky unit. Totally coherent. And all because they moved the viking to the starport (it was produced by the factory at the begining). But I guess not many people remember the days before the game came out. Cheers!
Well, I think the most important factor behind ALL unit roster changes is that they didn’t want SC2 to be a direct 3D port of SC1. They wanted new units for a new game, and reasons to continue playing the original.
@@AtillaTheFun1337 Oh, sure, I understand that, and you're right. My problem wasn't so much the replacement of the units, but the ridiculous excuses they used at the time. Specially when in many many cases they just swapped one skill/unit's race with some little tweaks here and there and called it new. Like irradiation, which was given slightly tweaked to the viper (parasitic bomb), or mind control to the infestor (and the list goes on and on). Or bringing back units they did scrap at the begining (like lurkers, battery shields...). Or scrapping the arbiter to just bring it up again in the form of mothership (at WoL). I've watched several videos in this channel, and they use to be pretty good and interestgin, but in this one, he made up a lot of stuff. Cheers!
I agree, the reasons felt a little backwards in this one. "Medivacs exist so no need for medics" when it was more that they were created for Reapers except by the time Medivacs come out, Reapers have been obsoleted 5 minutes ago. And yeah, Goliath -> Thor/Viking is very dumb.
Idk, I feel like ur coming from the wrong angle, especially with the thor. They wanted to keep the same vibe as the goliath but the unit didn't mesh well with the faster and cleaner unit control in sc2, it was too slow to make an impact. Instead of making it faster they scaled it up, this way it might still feel a little slow but when you get it in position it hits hard. All these little changes impacting eachother is a fundamental aspect of balancing a game. Sure removing the vulture for the hellion seems arbitrary, but unless you want extreme unit bloat you need to cut the vulture. Imo if every unit was the same as its BW counterpart sc2 would be a far worse game. BW units just weren't made for the slick control of sc2. Besides it would just be a bit boring to have BW2.
@@kekitsjack5765 I mean, the Cyclone is basically 80% of the way to being a Goliath. As for the Hellion, my main dislike is how clunky it is to move, the damage point is probably the worst in the game.
Id argue the Goliath is better then Thor. If it has the Broodwar missle upgrade it be a better anti Armored Air unit then the Thor. And while argument comes in "Yeah you got the viking wich is more versatile" cept you need to micro swap to engage Air or Ground and you half half a second of vulnerability before you can attack. And the Medivac is more a Terran nerf because it takes longer time to field those then it was to field normal Medics. Complexity is good for competitivity but sometimes simple is better.
Imo the liberator should have just been the Valkyrie with a shiny new toy to play with Honestly lotv should have been the return of brood war. I mean, the Zerg even got the lurker back, and the disruptor is very functionally similar to the reaver, so why not just make it a reaver? A real waste of an opportunity if you ask me...
@@cavemantero Reaver shots would probably be a lot more reliable in connecting than Disruptors, with much higher dps too, however they are partially kept in check by outright demanding a transport cart them around, meaning you could only really have 2 at a time unless you got damned good at Prism micro. The Colossus was supposed to replace Reavers, their height, mobility, and splash damage imitating a flying Shuttle and its payload. But now you just had a highly mobile splash damage machine on A move, so it got nerfed to light damage focus. Without the splash from Colossi, Protoss was a bit boned, so back comes Totally Not a Reaver.
Actually, the reason medic was removed was because of the reapers. Medics couldn't sync with them, so they combined the medic and dropships together to fix this problem...than you know, giving medics jetpacks lol
i remember my first ever versus game after i finished "wings of liberty" campaign: "how the hell do i build medics?? how am i supposed to keep my marines alive??" ;-)
I hate building the medivacs. Here's why. I'm not a diamond level player first off. They rush into enemy anti air and die. They require a star port vs just the base barracks. They require starport upgrades which you have to do in addition to marine upgrades if you want to keep 'em alive late game. Yes it is harder to focus them down but with a full barracks focus you can pump the medics out in huge numbers. I miss Medics...
I miss my medics the most. I mean medivacs are okay but you lose a lot of rush potential in the early game because you cant make some quick medics, you have to go factory and starport and then medivac, esentialy you pay 300 gas for 2 medic and the ability to drop units, but in some case I don't need to drop anything, I can just bruteforce my way through.... Uhh And wraiths would be very good, especially versus protos and zerg, cuz you can snipe their detectors and then bye bye flying army.
I once had enemy medics blind overlords in Brood War, as an opener to a dark templar push. Plus medics had that restoration spell, as well as caduceus reactor to store more energy.
If I would return any of these Terran units to SC2, it would be the Science Vessel. It'll have the same abilities as the original, with the additional healing of mechanical units to support mech armies. Ghost loses EMP and gains Lockdown (which is now a channeled ability like the Phoenix' Graviton Beam), and Irradiate can affect both biological and mechanical units.
Mech healing was a Campaign only ability, so I’m not sure that’d be copied over one to one. Base BW Vessels had Irradiate, EMP, and D-Matrix. Snipe does almost the same thing outside of being less useful against Mutas, EMP on Ghost is flat out better, though D matrix basically doesn’t exist because I suspect the speed of Smart Casting might have made Terran units a bit absurdly tanky.
i still play starcraft broodwar then sc2. i have sunk years of gaming in broodwar, where as starcraft 2 maybe couple thousand hours. broodwar is way more fun, its a bit clunky and old with its unit pathing but thats a feature imo. sc2 for some reason doesnt feel good despite the quality of life improvements to unit movement and selection, static defenses feel so incredibly weak, photon canons melt instantly despite having 50 more health and shields than the sc1 equivalent. the ai in broodwar is also more fun, ai will sometimes cheese like a 4 pool zerg rush or protoss ai building dts. all the sc2 ai does is the same build the same army comp every time, theres no cheeky drop on your flank, they always attack the same ramp always in middle of your base. Also sc2 requires constant internet connection, i dont need to update broodwar and can still play it, i cant play sc2 anymore because i havent updated it in so long because they constantly create pointless patches that waste computers space and memory, i cant view half of my old replays for sc2 because of the new "updates" and i noticed in some of my replays how often the ui changes. sc2 is anti consumer and anti fun, even its campaigned i did not have fun because of the constant forced timed missions. like i want to chill and build up.
I would argue medivac was a nerf. Medics can be build via barracks, so you can MM rush people who were not careful. Medivac needed a starport, thus making the bio rush early less viable.
In the lore, the Liberator gunship is based off of the Valkyrie missile frigate (which is why it has the aa attack that it does), and the Viking was introduced to the Dominion arsenal as a replacement for the Goliath.
Technically the Hellion replaced the Vulture first, Firebats could've kept the mobility of bio and be far more mobile than Hellbats/Hellions are at harassing and maneuvering. As for Hellions vs Vultures, I suspect they really didn't want to keep moving shot, considering how bad the Hellion's damage point is. While Vikings are superior to Goliaths stat wise, gameplay wise they're a bit wonky in them being their own counter in TvT. Technically you can use Thors, but their poor mobility is a bit of a problem in keeping up with a moving fight. Cyclones are fast, but their range sucks. For Wraiths, like with Scouts, I feel like SC2 is a bit too happy spreading powerful Air to Ground units into the game. Units that can't shoot up get wrecked if they can't get anti-air around, which often takes heavy casualties too because of dps density, unless they're also an air unit. Science vessel got basically replaced by SC2 Ghosts, Irradiate with Snipe and EMP with EMP round.
Spider mines aren't free - they cost 25 minerals each. You get a free pointy motorcycle with each three-pack. The only thing they don't cost is supply, because they remain after the vulture which dropped them is long gone. You can't move them, or even manually target them, so functionally they're one-shot buildings that can only attack ground units which don't hover. The only real major advantage they have over any other unit is the ability to attack cloaked units without detection.
Siege tanks often shoot less than 4 times in TvZ before they go down. With vulture you get three arguably superior shots you can bank for no gas - and get a cool bike on top of that! Vultures slap, and are arguably the strongest unit in original starcraft.
4:10 the real reason why sc2 is gutting air unit so much is because multiple unit selection and death balling would be even worse if air units are good. sc2 already suffers from death ball issues, and having it ground based at least have _some_ opportunities of breaking it up if you can select all your units as air, and they're good, nobody would use ground unit at all because an air deathball will be much easier to manuver bw balanced air units mostly by limiting their air-to-ground damage (scout / wraith both pea shooters vs ground for example)
That's kinda ahistorical isn't it when you raise the liberator (which doesn't appear till LOTV) and the corruptor (which doesn't get its vomit till LOTV) as examples of why the Valkyrie isn't needed. I think ignoring time in deciding why things were not included is rather bad as a form of analysis
In SC1 there was no such thing as queing actions in the user interface. So if you had a group of ghosts defending against a group of carriers, by using lockdown on each carrier, you would need to select each ghost individually and have each cast lockdown on different carriers. So only players with crazy high APM would be able to use such abilities to their maximum potential. Similarly for example for defensive matrix, you could cast it on a squad of stimmed marines and just wreck havoc on any base. But your APM would need to be high enough to do it on the whole marine squad. Every ability behaved that way, for example if you had a group of high templars and you wanted to cast psionic storm over a wide area, you'd need to select each templar individually and then cast. Otherwise all templars would cast psionic storm over the same area, but the effect would not stack. So esentially you'd be wasting the unit's ability. I think that's a big part of why some units or abilities were removed. Some game designer at Blizz thought that hey, lockdown on ghosts is too powerful because they can disable a whole mechanic army just with queuing. But for some reason other abilities were OK, such as psionic storm or fungal growth for example.
I guess firebats and vultures had a "switch of concept" just so a good mix of damage can be present in a bio deathball. I personally prefer medics over medivacs though but I guess blizzard want to cover all aspects in a bio deathball by adding additional support ability on dropships.
Swarm hosts cost money and supply though. I could complain that every time a widow mine blows up 10 banelings and then gets picked up and dropped in a mineral like to kill another 10 drones that the missiles are “free suicide units”. Both are cooldown based abilities that deal immense damage in different ways. Plus, a pair of swarm hosts can’t delete 24 mutas in 1 second so that’s something…
@@HellecticMojoImagine designing a unit so horrible it turns every zerg matchup into the world's slowest meatgrinder, tanking your game's popularity in the process.
@@AtillaTheFun1337 You're confusing Widow Mines and Spider Mines. Spider Mines aren't reusable and just run at a target in-range before blowing up. Vultures only have three before they're out, and they can't refill on Spider Mines. Widows fire missiles while burrowed and are reusable. The Swarm Host problem doesn't exist with Spider Mines.
I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned that SC2 has a a evolution in its lore. While the whole analysis about game play is correct, it should be mentioned that, according to lore, all the new units are stronger than the old ones. For example the Viking is an upgraded version of the Goliath, the Liberator is the upgraded Valkyrie and so on.
more like devolution the sc2 lore is bad. old broodwar lore wasnt great but at least it wasnt on the level of sc2 where they literaly putting in boring tropes like prophecies and make the entire wings of liberty campaign pointless since Hots undoes all of it.
@@soldier22881 My comment wasn't about the storyline itself but the fact that every race has a evolution to make its units stronger than they have been in BW. The Immortal is an upgraded version of the Dragoon, the Viking is an upgraded version of the Goliath and so on. This has nothing to do with "boring tropes" that you mentioned.
The other thing about Science Vessel repair is that it is free, costinf only renewable energy, whereas SCV repair costs resources. This can make the Science Vessel repair potentially hard to balance, since the resource cost of repairing structure and mech units is a major balancing factor of the Terran health regeneration method. Zerg regen is constant and free, but slow. Protoss can only regen part of their health (shields) but this regen is quicker. Terrans can only regen health for “free” on their squishiest units (bio units) and require Medivacs to do it. Their mechanical health regeneration is EXTREMELY FAST, but costs resources in exchange for this speed and requires workers. Giving them an option to repair mech units and buildings that is slower but free would be difficult to balance, either being useless due to the supply and resource cost of the science vessel itself, or overpowered and allowing Terran to regenerate for free.
They would most likely heal and go OOM very quickly, to the point of not being worth it and cutting into all of their other spells. Many units create free value, be it directly like swarm hosts, or indirectly via energy anyway (the old sentry pushes, high templars, infestors etc.) - which sometimes caused the problems on its own (swarm hosts, manausers leading to either passive plays or all-in style timing pushes), but brood war literally works with "i kill you" spawn broodlings spell being a thing against tanks. If science vessel would regenerate energy and generate money slower than 2 SCV (or however much supply it would use) - it would be inferior to it other than some edge cases like splitmap superlategame 1 hour games.
Some of the answers are just "they are replaced by something else". I don't think that's a good answer. With more veriety comes more strategies and possibly new fun ways to play. Goliaths, as an example, could be a mech variant of marines for a more mech-heavy army style. Medics could be a more spammable option to medivacs and be a substitute in case your enemy happens to be really strong against air. Over all I just think it's just a way to not make the game to complicated because it becomes easier to balance the races with fewer units.
The only one I miss that they should have never scrapped from multi-player was the Science Vessel. One of my favorite spell caster units of all. And part of my strategy in many SC1 games.
I would like to try a SINS Rebellion split of the factions bringing the Brood Wars units back into the game. Terran Raiders (BW) Terran Dominion (S2) Protos Kahala (BW) Protos Scion (S2) Zerg Overmind (BW) Zerg Queen (S2)
Loved the Science Vessel. It was flexible for defense and offense where Irradiate could be helpful against bios units while defense matrix could guard valuable units. They were very fargile and cost lots of gas so investment into them balanced them out. I like SC2's take on the terrans and the multipurpose use of their units like the Siege tank, Vikings, and Liberators it's such a neat use of 1 unit that's beneficial in a variety of uses.
I miss the wraith. What i would like to see is a customizable army units tree, with related upgrades from BW or SC2. No one would have the same combination and even if they do, they would share the ssme weaknesses. That way, i could get rid of reapers and ravens that are completely useless as compared to the science vessel and add wraiths and goliaths to my tech tree.
@@EsportsStoryteller Honestly i'm far from expert on the subject, but usually when you make vikings, you make a decent number of them and to counter air, which at that point means most of enemy's army is air. I guess it can be used to clean some ground structures in-between fights, but that's really it. I kinda wish we had goliaths and thors but with later being less effective against air. Thors are kinda busted.
I guess that from outside point of view Blizzard's game design in Starcraft 2 related to units is very, very inconsistent. As if "different things were planned and carried out by different people who didn't really talked with each other".
@@EsportsStoryteller After being useless for something like 10 years and needing 2 or 3 buffs to make the button competetively useful and not basically a manner mule lol
You got everything backward. They got rid of these units, and then put the units to replace them. And some of the unit you mentioned werent in the game in Wings of Liberty. I can make the exact same video why SC1 doesnt need these SC2 exclusive unit with your reasons.
They want very easy to use units that dont ask any mental effort from the player. If you cannot A move it across the map or it stops you from A moving, it got removed.
I mean, it's not like units that have been kept around didn't get some level of rework from BW to SC2, so I fail to see why several of the units (and sometimes abilities) couldn't be kept around. Also, the parts where you mention that a given unit isn't quite powerful enough... Buffing it across the games is a perfectly valid option.
Personally i think almost every new unit Blizzard thought was a good replacement for the old units, always ended up worse and they had to find other replacements to remake the old units without losing face
There were good ideas for replacements. The Viking sounds like a decent replacement for the Goliath. They just made it range 9 air to air which was going to be problematic. Why not have it do more range in ground mode and have it be faster like the Wraith in air mode? Much easier to balance even though the unit becomes a mix of both units. Probably also feels better to control. Then there was the fact that units felt a lot clunkier and slower to use which was a design decision made early on.
Honestly it really sucks they didn't just use all the units just rebalance them and keep them all, its disapointing not to have the entire Arsenal at your disposal... And some multiplayer things don't exist in the campaign which is also annoying
I'd love to see Goliaths make it into the game along with a Thor makeover. It's never made sense to me that Thor's are so strong anti-air, it feels more like a heavy unit hammering through enemy front lines. So change the Thor to be the heavy assault kick in the door weapon, and bring Goliaths back as a primarily anti-air platform.
I think that a science vessel healing mech units would be really great, repairing with scvs is impractical and annoying. I think it should have been an option if it's not OP. Would be just cool to fix your units at home when not fighting, fixing mid battle would be too OP but that's not even what I want.
I guess developers want mech units to only be repaired when out of combat, at home, by scv. Maybe it would be OP to repair mid battle, but I believe it can be adjusted to be viable
@Ernesto Iparraguirre doesn't even need rates adjusted, just make a rule that if a unit is attacking or getting attacked it can't be healed by a science vessel
@@ernestoiparraguirre2745 all they had to do was make it an ability like queen transfuse as opposed to auto-cast and swap it with EMP since they gave that to Ghosts.
Blizzards obsession with eSports and "balance' ironically killed sc2 as an esport. Imagine if they didn't give a fuck about "redundant" units and just added all the single player campaign units and the original sc1 units into multiplayer and let the pros have at it. The games would be wild and crazy to watch. There would be so many more possible plays and counter plays.
Why I mainly only play Coop and customs. These units tht didn't make it to Ladder are very fun to play. They can be rather OP especially when played correctly, but the AI doesn't mind. There was that time when Coop turned into a 1v1 match. All that cheese and frustrations in that short time could is equal to all of the frustrations from cheese throughout the history of the game
i think the goliath is superior to it's replacement, the viking, simply because i don't have to wait on a transform animation to slap air/ground units, i click and it just does it. the only down side to the goliath is it can't fly, which i can live with since it's basically a SAM turret with legs. vikings feel unwieldy to me since im not mashing my key board like the pros do, they take more of a nuanced focus than a goliath, if you leave them in air mode and something on the ground pokes them, they are defenceless until they transform, and if you transform them while they are being slapped you are sure to lose a few, ouch. or you can run away with them, same if they are on the ground and getting hit from the sky. Goliaths just do both and were the mainstay of my terran comp in SC1, was a shame to see it gone in SC2 but makes sense for the balance, hardly anything has Dual purpose Air/Ground attack except Marines, widow mines, hydralisk, Thor, Stalker, Archon, and maybe a few others im forgetting, everything else has only attacks air or only attacks ground as a specific role it fills. the few dual purpose exist are wither a cheap low tier unit with a single target decent DPS attack (stalker/marine/hydralisk) or and expensive late game unit that has some high damage but high attack cooldown attack (Thor, Tempest). i like thors, but god are they expensive when i just need a semi-cheap horde of AA
@@Appletank8 yeah, protoss seems to get the most dual purpose units. if only protoss weren't so expensive i'd play them more. Terran and Zerg seem to suffer in this respect, neither have a ton of dual purpose options, and like i said they are either cheap early tier units that are not bad but not great, or an expensive ass late game unit like the Thor that isn't very intuitive to mass. mass thors can work, i've seen it work watching uThermal it's just slow, clunky, and a large unit model that costs more than it's truly worth in my opinion.
I still miss medics and dropships. Because there are plenty of times id much rather have foot slogging medics both for the aesthetics of an infantry blob and so that they dont get singled out by anti air when supporting a marine push. Likewise having cheap expendable transports over medivacs where you are putting all your eggs in one basket has its tactical uses. Same for firebats, hellions are stronger but a cheaper weaker footslogger variant you can toss into your marine ball doesn’t hurt anyone. As is evident, i am very ok with units who have overlapping roles or are the same but different tiers so disagree with blizz’s logic here.
Goliath is a sad one to me. Vikings are same only by technicality to me, while Thors could have been something _more_ then just a bulky, slow firing Goliath.
@@manueldelbono202 well yes but starport tech lab is very hard to get you need to pump medivacs so you can afford 1 max 2 (exept TvT, in this matchup you also dont care about medivacs so much).Compare it to P guardian shield that is similar spell and sentry is cheaper and much easier to get techwise. And against P ghost emp is just much better same goes for ghost snipe against Z. And raven costs more gas than ghost. And late game when you have resources to get this spell you dont really care due to fact that bio is no longer your main dmg.
they had to add it in because Terran missed the goliath too much. The Viking/Thor replacement wasn't good enough. Vikings having to be built at the starport and having to land for ground attack and Thors being expensive AF.
Kinda, but worse. more fragile, more expensive, a bit worse lock on range than Vikings so there isn’t really that much of an advantage. Might as well build Thors to be able to actually ward away air units.
pretty much spot on with getting rid of any overlap Firebat -> Hellbat Medic -> Medivac Vulture -> Hellion Goliath -> Thor/Viking Wraith -> Banshee/Viking Valkyrie -> (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizz basically gutted every single dedicated air to air splash unit, devourer/corsair/valkyrie) Science Vessel -> Raven
Thsi feels like your saddling the horse from the back. The medic and dropship were there first, followong your reasoning, the medivac woukd never have seen the light of day. The medic change, I believe, was to move a healing unit for terran to the later stages of the game, and make em less spamable, as Starports are usually bot Infrastructure one wants ton off, compared to barracks
Because they weren't very creative. They combined Vulturs and Firebats into Hellions that transform into firebats. They renamed Spider Mines as Widow Mines. They renamed the science vessel to Raven and changed its spells. They renamed the Goliath to Thor. They renamed the Wraith to Banshee and took away its air attack and gave it to Vikings.
truth be told I would've liked the idea of unit + tech fusions - marines+reapers, medics+medivacs+hercules transport, goliath+viking+wraith+banshee, science vessel+raven, vulture+hellion+firebat, firebat+marauders. another thing I would've liked would've been the ability to infield upgrade vikings to archangels & thors to odins
One interesting thing is that ghosts aren’t usable in broodwar because of how spells there. But in sc2, ghosts are a god unit that can use EMP. If anyone had actual machine like macro in bw, ghosts would be broken, but no one is good enough to micro them. So instead the vessel has to have EMP etc
The only thing BW Ghosts really have going for them is Lockdown which only has some viability in TvP. Against Zerg there's nuke rush and pretty much nothing else. Against Terran, the same issues as Bio in that Siege tanks splatter them, and Scan makes it hard to hide long enough to get in range. Against Protoss you might be able to Lockdown Dragoons, Arbiters, Reavers/Shuttles, but Zealots running in kinda ruin their day anyways, Vessels are far less clunky against Arbiters because they can fly over obstacles, the time it takes to get Ghosts against Reavers is time for most of your army to get blown to bits. And if you can see Observers to lockdown, you could just easily destroy them outright. They have a bit of a niche usage for countering Carriers, but the same issue of fragility is still there, especially if you missed an Observer floating nearby.
Feels like the original vision for SC2 was to let players choose a loadout of units in multiplayer If you wanted to roll with both Firebats and Hellions, you could. The reason being anti-bio. If you wanted to run with Marauders and Vultures, you could. The reason being anti-armor. If you wanted to mix and match like that, you could. Some would say the balancing would be impossible. I say they seemed to have found a good balance in campaign, it would not take much to make it work in multiplayer. Firebats and Hellbats rolls overlap, but they have their strengths and weaknesses. Firebats are slower yet much tougher, making them good for slugging it out, letting them jump into bunkers and have less intense micro. Hellbats are faster and more versatile, making them good raiders and anti-melee, yet harder to micro. I genuinely think they should have gone down this route as the number of strategies and tactics would have gone through the roof and made the game even more interesting. Imagine taking an anti-bio army expecting Zerg only to end up fighting Protoss Mechs. The players would both players would have to adapt and reconsider their tactics and perhaps find new combos that might work better than expected, or at least tactics that minimize their weaknesses to edge out wins.
Wraith actually did a lot of AA damage. It was just expensive and fragile. Vikings were a better inclusion because sinply buffing the tickle cannons would make the games less dynamic. So vikings got a ground form.
They should minimize overlap by having each race only field one unit. This unit then has abilities to transform into all possible roles. Let's call it the Siege Caster Viking (or SCV)!
I don't know if redundancy is the best reason in favour of just 'for balance reasons' instead. Imagine if you will they kept all the choices in, redundant or not, I could imagine more than a few games ending up being quick marauder firebat and medic pushes early and having little actual counter to it.
it is funny that one of my favorite defense maps called "TAR defense" on starcraft 1 started lagging real bad, and there was a name where one version had Valkyries do 2500 damage each rocket, really good, but back then the lag and ping differences for people would get so bad you'd have to sell Valkyries for other anti air units, but ever sense the polish we got for an upgrade of Starcraft 1, what was once a really challenging map was downright easy, so I'd definately say Valkyries, as much as I miss them, were definately lag generators.
It was not a lag but entity limit known as "ccmu" (cannot create more units). Original starcraft supported only 1650 units+projectiles, and refused to spawn/build/shoot more, leading to projectile units (anti air scouts, valkyries, anti air wraiths etc.) not shooting when ordered to - something that valkyries that shoot a lot of projectiles suffered from the most.
There's really both, cuse i do remember the limit thing, but there was alot of latiency issues because we didn't have the great internets we have now.@@MajkaSrajka
I just think more units would add variety to a game fielding vultures without spidermines and hellions and then add a few widow mines would be a cool composition. Goliaths and hellbats and hellions with cyclones would be cool
for vulture, its really easy to break the engine by placing thousands of widow mines, this causes the game to stop allowing people to build units and those built become 'ghosts' that take supply and do nothing
I'd personally say that Vultures didn't make the cut because of the generally increased tempo of the game, where one Vulture with some mines could easily block enemy expansion efforts across half the map.
2:57 You're kind of wrong here. Though they can land on the ground, Vikings are not really ground-based units. As you know, Goliaths are produced in Factories not Starports, which is affected by the player's build priorities. The current, non-Tech Lab Factory units that can do the Goliaths' role are Cyclones and Widow Mines. Moreover, the Goliaths' main role in Broodwar is being the long-ranged, anti-air ground unit. They are the ground units that deal with Guardians. However, in SC2, the Goliaths' range & targeting upgrades are limited to the single-player campaign. If they were added in Multiplayer, they would have been the ground counter for Broodlords & Tempests. 3:37 Wraiths are the actual Starport units that have been replaced by Vikings. Imo, Wraiths are the better than Vikings because they have cloaking and they do not need to spend time changing modes. 4:33 Each air unit fulfills multiple roles? Don't make me laugh. Can Banshees attack air units? NO. 4:47 No need for advanced anti-air units? View more professional matches. Many matches were won by having a massive number of air units - mass mutas, mass vikings, mass BCs, mass tempests, etc. 4:53 Vikings are enough? I cannot take that seriously. Can a single Viking hit multiple targets? NO, because their AoE/splash damage upgrade is limited to the campaign.
6:20 Heh... many in Coop mode seem to hate using SCVs for repair (even though Swann's SCVs repair at 0-cost!). Another issue is Sci Vessels don't repair buildings.
It got nerfed because people were complaining about how it deleted air fleets. I'm a bit baffled why they didn't reuse the same damage logic as BW's, or Widow Mines which already exist in game, which actually reduced the splash somewhat. First, they did rapid fire of low damage attacks, meaning armor scuffs them pretty hard. Second, like Widow Mines, they only do full damage against the primary target, everyone else in the splash takes half damage.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Zerg deleted stuff - th-cam.com/video/_U_RA5uUQYQ/w-d-xo.html
Protoss deleted stuff - th-cam.com/video/Zn2WWvrcrfk/w-d-xo.html
Timecodes:
00:00 Zerg & Protoss units
00:20 Firebat
00:40 Medic
01:20 Vulture
02:40 Goliath
03:36 Wraith
04:00 Valkyrie
05:03 Science Vessel
Blizzard forced terran to trade Spidermines, Science Vessels, and Firebats to Zerg in the form of Banelings, Vipers, and Roaches. In return, Terran got Guardians and Infested Terrans in the form of Banshees and Widow mines...at the expense of that and Wraiths which is a terrible trade off. I still would take Goliaths over Vikings, Cyclones, and Thors. There's no doubt that Blizzard's developers favored Zerg in SC2 even though the best unit, the Hydra, was and is still somewhat unusable because banelings are just flat out better since they're basically controllable spidermines. Who cares about anti-air with the attacking army when you can just obliterate 1/3-1/5th of the opponent's economy or 1/2 to 2/3's of their ground units within a few seconds?
Esports guy from Ohio thinks he knows Sc2 lmao
u miss dark archon
stupid sc2 fanboy , respect brood war
SC: Evo Complete is now here
Pretty spot on,but imagine.... A 2 hour game in hots,a battlefield full of spider mines vs a full army of swarm hosts.the ultimate snooze fest which would result in an inevitable protoss nerf lol
yeah f Protoss
If you want to see one interpretation of Vultures in SC2's engine, there's always Starbow. It's not actually as bad as it would seem, since unlike Widow Mines, they have to reveal themselves for a second or so before attacking. SC2's better attack AI lets opposing units target them decently reliably if on A-move and nothing else is distracting them.
they nerf the protoss by adding the reaver but its scarabs go in random places and have a 50/50 chance to be duds.
@@BLsurprise I mean, what's the hit rate of Disruptors in professional play? 25%?
@@BLsurprise
Cost raised to 20/20 each
Defensive Matrix on the Sci Vessel was INSANE. It was so much value and could easily swing engagements.
Insane, just as was point defense drone of the raven. The PDD invalidated entire unites just based on whether the PDD worked on their projectiles and whether it fired fast to burn through the energy. It was just too good, I guess Interference matrix is easier to work around.
@@lagg1e Yeeeees! I remember that too! Great times :D
Like putting it on a ghost, so that even a siedge tank has trouble killing him before the nuke hits?
I'd say the unit that replaced the vulture as a fast anti light skirmisher is not the hellion, but the reaper
No, vulture comes way too late to be comparable to the reaper. Reaper is equivalent to terran getting a premium zergling.
When SC2 first started, there was no reaper. Hellion was the intended replacement for reaper. Reaper was added later as an additional early-game harass unit. Plus, vultures and hellions come at the exact same tech stage... factory.
@@Pravanul as far as i remember reaper was there from the begining, but it had different 'skills', he could demolish buildings in seconds. And helion came much later
Nah no way. Vultures are used both in harass and armies long into the game. Most games have only one reaper if that, occasionally you might go up to 3 or 5 in the very early game.
@@Pravanul you might be thinking hellbat. Reaper was shown in the debut alpha demo because they were used to show off the new cliff interaction tech along with the colossi.
Sometimes I feel like Blizz is just thinking "God I hate something that shares a role" and should instead be thinking "So we have two units that share the same role, what if we spice things and add different traits to make em both appealing for different tactics this way could create interesting plays". It's true some units would need pretty big modifications to make em viable without too much cheese or ridiculousness but that aint the philosophy of SC2 where cheese is basically the universe.
They are just allergic to fun
Yeah honestly I would've loved just more units in general for their variety. Some of the things that make Broodwar so much fun is that there are some crappy units and abilities that are still included in the game even if they aren't vaible. This introduces creativity instead of SC2 where we see the exact same unit comps every time. And for casual games like 4v4 etc, the addition of extra units and abilities is fun and adds to the chaos but sc2 is anti fun.
Way before the Raven, they tried the Nomad, which was supposedly the replacement for the Science Vessel. It has the ability to deploy auto-turrets. People complained about the looks of the unit (same as the first infestor design), and they changed it for the Raven we all know.
Yo wild I forgot about that!
Sadly their art design never recovered imo.
Especially when they decided to replace Arbiters with Boring Independence Day ripoffs. :/
A theory:
- They decided to nerf the spider mines and replaced them with widow mines.
- They decided to buff the secondary bio unit. Firebats were replaced with marauders so they can shoot at range with the marines.
- But the melee splash option still had enough utility not to be scrapped altogether. After exploring options, they decided to give flamethrowers to the mine-less vulture, giving birth to hellions.
- The wraiths' anti-air role had been taken over by the goliaths, while their cloaked air-to-ground role really could use more DPS. So they split the wraith into the viking and banshee. Goliaths were effectively removed from their anti-air role and their ground attack was given to the viking. But that was only just in case, since the marauders could already play the role of tanky infantry. The viking also had to switch modes between ground-only goliath and air-only wraith, because otherwise it would have been a flying goliath, and that's kind of OP.
I also want to take a moment to appreciate the evolution of starcraft air units that happened in Brood War. Terran got valkyries and protoss got corsairs, both of which dealt splash damage. Meanwhile, zerg got the devourers, which dealt a high (and very slow) single target damage. I think this is a testament that massing mutas worked since the game's first iteration, while they weren't any good at dealing with capital ships. Did the respective additions serve all of the designers' intended purposes? Probably not, as was the case with the devourer. But there was also a lot of happy accidents. The whole competitive scene was, in a way, a happy accident. Who knew how far people could go with this game?
Devourers did splash with their goup at least which lowered attack speed
It's worth noting:
-Mutalisk stacking like we see today didn't exist until ~2004-2005 with Julyzerg mastering it as a pro.
-A strong corsair build didn't arrive until ~2006 with BIsu. You could do the same trick as zerg with muta by trapping a probe.
-Valkyries were a buggy unit in original BW because of the games engine literally firing the missiles reliably. It wasn't until remastered that they've become more popular because the game engine could handle them properly, especially with multiple of them. It's just this passed year [2023] where Terrans have done mass valk and do the somewhat obvious thing of aggressively hunt overlords (like Corsairs have done forever).
@@shadowling77777 Lowers attack speed and each stack causes the units to take 1 more damage.
Good for map designs that force huge air wars, but not competitive play.
@@Zraknul "-Valkyries were a buggy unit in original BW because of the games engine literally firing the missiles reliably."
Please explain this statement. I may have played Brood War before, but I was very young when I did, so I wouldn't have understood the mechanics of how they worked.
widow mines weren't in wings of liberty, I don't think.
Saying something shouldn't be moved over to sc2 because an equivalent already exists is circular reasoning.
Exactly, the argument they shouldn't put an old unit in because a new one exists already is the exact opposite of reality. Why put time and effort developing a new unit when an old unit already EXISTS. The real answer is they wanted to change the meta to fit a different vision than Brood War's slow brawls.
I think the question is why they are not added YET, like lurker
@user-pf5vw2gx1w yeah I would've liked to see the Science Vessel get a new lease on life. That way the mentality could be that the Raven is a more offensively focused aerial caster, and the Science Vessel a more Defensively focused caster. Plus SCVs for repair? Scv repairs take resources whereas the SV would just be energy. It'd be in the same vein as Shield Batteries for protoss, and Transfuse for Zerg.
Maybe it doesn't even need irradiate because Snipe exists (but it is an iconic ability so maybe retune it to fit current meta? Idk I'm not a dev)
@@SrMissileMonkey or maybe reskin raven into SV:D
No it isnt
I’d like to see an “anything goes” version of Starcraft 2 multiplayer which includes all these units.😊
There is, in the form of an extension mod where you can use campaign and coop units.
That's one of my favorite mods
SC: Evo Complete is now here and it's booming
So, it's hard to be splitting your units constantly to avoid irradiation, but it's easy to be splitting your units against dozens of banelings, or disruptor shots... yeah, right XD
I think it'd arguably be easier, you see the glowing marauder, you click on him and drag him out, or even just tell everyone to shoot him.
@@Appletank8 Not to mention that is exactly what Parasitic Bomb does. And with air units that has tendency to clump up XD
I mean, siege tank is already a ground aoe unit...
@@abordwaylong1339 so is the lurker. What is your point? Besides... all terran aoe units (and protoss) do friendly damage. Can you name ONE zerg unit/skill/ability that deals friendly fire?
@@PantoniStrikesBack Viper's suck ability?
Q: Why didn't these Terran units make it into SC2?
A: Because Blizzard hates fun.
Based
"Given the oppurtunity, players will opmitize the fun out of the game"
Competitive games are brutally hard to balance, because they need to make the game playable and fair for the world champions (and their audience).
So 1-200 players can have fun, the rest is "learning the game" :D
I think in years the first patch that actually helped lower leagues was the carrier "nerf" by lowering the interceptiors priority. So lower leagues can now A-move against skytoss with better winrate now.
As a BW fanboy, I honestly think they made a good job with the units in SC2 (design, balance, etc)
The problem is how they stack, and how many you can control at once.
And also the high-ground advantage.
I wish SC3 could combine both!
@@yyyy-uv3po Is not a fanboy because he like it the old units dude,you look like a fanboy of 2 for saying that
@@tiborsipos1174 And not,they don't need to balance around the best of the best,tehy need to balance for us.Esports is not the mayority of this game dude,that type of thinking is killing a lot of games
So... Terrans kept the Marine, the Siege Tank, the SCV, the Battlecruiser and the Ghost? The Battlecruiser was changed significantly too, so it's almost completely different than its Brood War equivalent.
I'd say the Tempest is more like the old Battlecruiser than the new one. Slow, but strong single attack, instead of the barrage.
Guardians didn't make it either, changed to broodlords
@@Appletank8 old BC doesn't need to charge like Tempest
@@shepherdlavellen3301 What do you mean by charge?
@@Appletank8 charge their attack before shooting
Ah, my trusty vulture. That little speed demon got me out of more scrapes than I care to admit. I miss the sound of those spider mines popping like popcorn as we left a trail of destruction behind us. But hey, every dog has its day, and every vulture has its last ride. Maybe it's time to get myself a shiny new ride. Any suggestions?
Love the Artosis clips, rofl.
"Here in the SC2 development team, we do our best to find units that fill a role that can't really be done by any other kinds of units. It is part of our design philophy after all!"
>Queens can do everything short of cleaning laundry and could easily be fitted into any composition if need be
>Mothership core has been a thing
>Most Terran units fail to fill their role to such a degree that Marines often just take their place.
Great design, Blizzard. Good job.
LMFAO
I bet not the team,but "I".
not to mention they made defense building obsolete, building lots of defense structures guarantees you will lose the very first army that shows up. static defenses melt way to quickly and are basically rarely built other than to stop flying harassers and even then you can easily drop an army on canons or bunkers and still win.
As someone whose only played the campaign, I find the MP of starcraft really disappointing, i get that you can't have stuff like the lab or unit upgrades like the ones you buy with cash, but it feels deeply wrong to cut units because they wouldn't be very useful or redundant, when they are already fully made units in the game, if they are gonna be weak then there's no reason not to have them in the game because it's not like your enemt can force you to build those weak units, you should have a few options in how you do something, and in particular the wraith, a stealth fighter is really cool and worked well with the banshee, snipe the detector regardless of if it's air or ground and you have a few units to harass the enemy, even if the spector was identical stat wise to ghosts just having a little bit of variety in the models and voice lines would be nice, particularly when the spector has multiple missions deadicated towards there story in the game
There's a lot of BS in this. If you don't replace the vulture, you don't have the hellion and you wouldn't need to scrap the firebat. And in the end, they just changed the unit's production building and the looks (Hellbat).
Also the medic... Blizzard was going crazy cause they didn't know what to do with the reaper. The unit had an specific role and didn't have access to healing cause their mobility (medics couldn't follow) . Which was funny, cause lorewise the reapers didn't last for long in combat. But they wanted to give them access to heal, so they scrapped the medic and gave the healing ability to the dropship.
Same stupidity with the Goliath. They stated that it was replaced cause it was very limited due to its mobility. So they changed the Thor (which was an assault juggernaut) to make it an anti-air unit. Funny enough, cause you take out the goliath for limited mobility, yet put instead an oversized, slow, clunky unit. Totally coherent. And all because they moved the viking to the starport (it was produced by the factory at the begining).
But I guess not many people remember the days before the game came out.
Cheers!
Well, I think the most important factor behind ALL unit roster changes is that they didn’t want SC2 to be a direct 3D port of SC1. They wanted new units for a new game, and reasons to continue playing the original.
@@AtillaTheFun1337 Oh, sure, I understand that, and you're right. My problem wasn't so much the replacement of the units, but the ridiculous excuses they used at the time.
Specially when in many many cases they just swapped one skill/unit's race with some little tweaks here and there and called it new. Like irradiation, which was given slightly tweaked to the viper (parasitic bomb), or mind control to the infestor (and the list goes on and on).
Or bringing back units they did scrap at the begining (like lurkers, battery shields...).
Or scrapping the arbiter to just bring it up again in the form of mothership (at WoL).
I've watched several videos in this channel, and they use to be pretty good and interestgin, but in this one, he made up a lot of stuff.
Cheers!
I agree, the reasons felt a little backwards in this one. "Medivacs exist so no need for medics" when it was more that they were created for Reapers except by the time Medivacs come out, Reapers have been obsoleted 5 minutes ago.
And yeah, Goliath -> Thor/Viking is very dumb.
Idk, I feel like ur coming from the wrong angle, especially with the thor. They wanted to keep the same vibe as the goliath but the unit didn't mesh well with the faster and cleaner unit control in sc2, it was too slow to make an impact. Instead of making it faster they scaled it up, this way it might still feel a little slow but when you get it in position it hits hard.
All these little changes impacting eachother is a fundamental aspect of balancing a game. Sure removing the vulture for the hellion seems arbitrary, but unless you want extreme unit bloat you need to cut the vulture.
Imo if every unit was the same as its BW counterpart sc2 would be a far worse game. BW units just weren't made for the slick control of sc2. Besides it would just be a bit boring to have BW2.
@@kekitsjack5765 I mean, the Cyclone is basically 80% of the way to being a Goliath.
As for the Hellion, my main dislike is how clunky it is to move, the damage point is probably the worst in the game.
I miss the old sounds of broodwar
Id argue the Goliath is better then Thor. If it has the Broodwar missle upgrade it be a better anti Armored Air unit then the Thor. And while argument comes in "Yeah you got the viking wich is more versatile" cept you need to micro swap to engage Air or Ground and you half half a second of vulnerability before you can attack. And the Medivac is more a Terran nerf because it takes longer time to field those then it was to field normal Medics. Complexity is good for competitivity but sometimes simple is better.
Simplicity is the reason why RTS players keep playing Command and Conquer games up to this day.
Imo the liberator should have just been the Valkyrie with a shiny new toy to play with
Honestly lotv should have been the return of brood war. I mean, the Zerg even got the lurker back, and the disruptor is very functionally similar to the reaver, so why not just make it a reaver? A real waste of an opportunity if you ask me...
disruptor moves a lot faster although I admit I liked the reaver better as well.
The reaver would have been way better. Actually usable by pros and not just a fancy zoning-tool/mini-nuke
@@cavemantero Reaver shots would probably be a lot more reliable in connecting than Disruptors, with much higher dps too, however they are partially kept in check by outright demanding a transport cart them around, meaning you could only really have 2 at a time unless you got damned good at Prism micro.
The Colossus was supposed to replace Reavers, their height, mobility, and splash damage imitating a flying Shuttle and its payload. But now you just had a highly mobile splash damage machine on A move, so it got nerfed to light damage focus. Without the splash from Colossi, Protoss was a bit boned, so back comes Totally Not a Reaver.
The Disruptor's existence annoys me to no end, it's just a lamer, blander reaver, just like 90% of Protoss replacement units :/
Reaver would be 1000x more terryfying with smarter scarab pathfinding lol
Spider mines are capped at 3 per Vulture btw
Actually, the reason medic was removed was because of the reapers. Medics couldn't sync with them, so they combined the medic and dropships together to fix this problem...than you know, giving medics jetpacks lol
i remember my first ever versus game after i finished "wings of liberty" campaign: "how the hell do i build medics?? how am i supposed to keep my marines alive??" ;-)
In broodwar marines were just a stepping stone to siege tanks ;)
I hate building the medivacs. Here's why. I'm not a diamond level player first off. They rush into enemy anti air and die. They require a star port vs just the base barracks. They require starport upgrades which you have to do in addition to marine upgrades if you want to keep 'em alive late game. Yes it is harder to focus them down but with a full barracks focus you can pump the medics out in huge numbers. I miss Medics...
I miss my medics the most. I mean medivacs are okay but you lose a lot of rush potential in the early game because you cant make some quick medics, you have to go factory and starport and then medivac, esentialy you pay 300 gas for 2 medic and the ability to drop units, but in some case I don't need to drop anything, I can just bruteforce my way through.... Uhh
And wraiths would be very good, especially versus protos and zerg, cuz you can snipe their detectors and then bye bye flying army.
mee too, i loved the medics. They made more sense than the medivacs tbh, i mean wtf, healed by a dropship, while flying :(
@@4utoxic Divine healing I guess :))
I once had enemy medics blind overlords in Brood War, as an opener to a dark templar push. Plus medics had that restoration spell, as well as caduceus reactor to store more energy.
I'd pick sc1 science vessel over raven any day
If I would return any of these Terran units to SC2, it would be the Science Vessel. It'll have the same abilities as the original, with the additional healing of mechanical units to support mech armies. Ghost loses EMP and gains Lockdown (which is now a channeled ability like the Phoenix' Graviton Beam), and Irradiate can affect both biological and mechanical units.
Mech healing was a Campaign only ability, so I’m not sure that’d be copied over one to one. Base BW Vessels had Irradiate, EMP, and D-Matrix. Snipe does almost the same thing outside of being less useful against Mutas, EMP on Ghost is flat out better, though D matrix basically doesn’t exist because I suspect the speed of Smart Casting might have made Terran units a bit absurdly tanky.
In BW, Blizzard designed units to be fun and interesting, SC2 was designed for 'esports', and BW still ended being more balanced than SC2.
This times infinity.
so true
They’ve nerfed reavers in SC2 and that one dude still demolishing with them; just like how terrifying reavers are in SC1
This.
i still play starcraft broodwar then sc2. i have sunk years of gaming in broodwar, where as starcraft 2 maybe couple thousand hours. broodwar is way more fun, its a bit clunky and old with its unit pathing but thats a feature imo. sc2 for some reason doesnt feel good despite the quality of life improvements to unit movement and selection, static defenses feel so incredibly weak, photon canons melt instantly despite having 50 more health and shields than the sc1 equivalent. the ai in broodwar is also more fun, ai will sometimes cheese like a 4 pool zerg rush or protoss ai building dts. all the sc2 ai does is the same build the same army comp every time, theres no cheeky drop on your flank, they always attack the same ramp always in middle of your base.
Also sc2 requires constant internet connection, i dont need to update broodwar and can still play it, i cant play sc2 anymore because i havent updated it in so long because they constantly create pointless patches that waste computers space and memory, i cant view half of my old replays for sc2 because of the new "updates" and i noticed in some of my replays how often the ui changes. sc2 is anti consumer and anti fun, even its campaigned i did not have fun because of the constant forced timed missions. like i want to chill and build up.
I would argue medivac was a nerf. Medics can be build via barracks, so you can MM rush people who were not careful.
Medivac needed a starport, thus making the bio rush early less viable.
Lmfao. Terran player detected.
In the lore, the Liberator gunship is based off of the Valkyrie missile frigate (which is why it has the aa attack that it does), and the Viking was introduced to the Dominion arsenal as a replacement for the Goliath.
Changing one of the most scary attack to one of the most pathetic one lol
Technically the Hellion replaced the Vulture first, Firebats could've kept the mobility of bio and be far more mobile than Hellbats/Hellions are at harassing and maneuvering. As for Hellions vs Vultures, I suspect they really didn't want to keep moving shot, considering how bad the Hellion's damage point is.
While Vikings are superior to Goliaths stat wise, gameplay wise they're a bit wonky in them being their own counter in TvT. Technically you can use Thors, but their poor mobility is a bit of a problem in keeping up with a moving fight. Cyclones are fast, but their range sucks.
For Wraiths, like with Scouts, I feel like SC2 is a bit too happy spreading powerful Air to Ground units into the game. Units that can't shoot up get wrecked if they can't get anti-air around, which often takes heavy casualties too because of dps density, unless they're also an air unit.
Science vessel got basically replaced by SC2 Ghosts, Irradiate with Snipe and EMP with EMP round.
In SC1 Goliath and Wraith were my favourite units, so in SC2 I like to build mass Viking, as it's kind of the same thing.
the wraith was so cool to me as well as a kid. prob why i love building banshee and viking. too bad wraith was kinda useless…
@@djinn_tseng They were good for hunting expansions, in large quantity even their weak laser could a bunch of workers
Spider mines aren't free - they cost 25 minerals each. You get a free pointy motorcycle with each three-pack.
The only thing they don't cost is supply, because they remain after the vulture which dropped them is long gone.
You can't move them, or even manually target them, so functionally they're one-shot buildings that can only attack ground units which don't hover. The only real major advantage they have over any other unit is the ability to attack cloaked units without detection.
Siege tanks often shoot less than 4 times in TvZ before they go down. With vulture you get three arguably superior shots you can bank for no gas - and get a cool bike on top of that!
Vultures slap, and are arguably the strongest unit in original starcraft.
I would've liked to see them all with a larger meta. Too many units are too multi functional.
4:10 the real reason why sc2 is gutting air unit so much is because multiple unit selection and death balling would be even worse if air units are good.
sc2 already suffers from death ball issues, and having it ground based at least have _some_ opportunities of breaking it up
if you can select all your units as air, and they're good, nobody would use ground unit at all because an air deathball will be much easier to manuver
bw balanced air units mostly by limiting their air-to-ground damage (scout / wraith both pea shooters vs ground for example)
That's kinda ahistorical isn't it when you raise the liberator (which doesn't appear till LOTV) and the corruptor (which doesn't get its vomit till LOTV) as examples of why the Valkyrie isn't needed. I think ignoring time in deciding why things were not included is rather bad as a form of analysis
In SC1 there was no such thing as queing actions in the user interface. So if you had a group of ghosts defending against a group of carriers, by using lockdown on each carrier, you would need to select each ghost individually and have each cast lockdown on different carriers. So only players with crazy high APM would be able to use such abilities to their maximum potential.
Similarly for example for defensive matrix, you could cast it on a squad of stimmed marines and just wreck havoc on any base. But your APM would need to be high enough to do it on the whole marine squad.
Every ability behaved that way, for example if you had a group of high templars and you wanted to cast psionic storm over a wide area, you'd need to select each templar individually and then cast. Otherwise all templars would cast psionic storm over the same area, but the effect would not stack. So esentially you'd be wasting the unit's ability.
I think that's a big part of why some units or abilities were removed. Some game designer at Blizz thought that hey, lockdown on ghosts is too powerful because they can disable a whole mechanic army just with queuing. But for some reason other abilities were OK, such as psionic storm or fungal growth for example.
I guess firebats and vultures had a "switch of concept" just so a good mix of damage can be present in a bio deathball. I personally prefer medics over medivacs though but I guess blizzard want to cover all aspects in a bio deathball by adding additional support ability on dropships.
besides medics had 2 more abilities, not only heal. Maybe not used regulary, but still an interesting caster
What!? Having free units that do damage like the mines is unfair!? While zergs have plenty of free units and it's totally balanced. That's cool.
Swarm hosts cost money and supply though. I could complain that every time a widow mine blows up 10 banelings and then gets picked up and dropped in a mineral like to kill another 10 drones that the missiles are “free suicide units”. Both are cooldown based abilities that deal immense damage in different ways.
Plus, a pair of swarm hosts can’t delete 24 mutas in 1 second so that’s something…
That's why swarmhosts got nerfed to oblivion.
@@HellecticMojoImagine designing a unit so horrible it turns every zerg matchup into the world's slowest meatgrinder, tanking your game's popularity in the process.
@@scorpixel1866 A unit so shit, they had to bring back Lurkers from the dead.
@@AtillaTheFun1337 You're confusing Widow Mines and Spider Mines.
Spider Mines aren't reusable and just run at a target in-range before blowing up. Vultures only have three before they're out, and they can't refill on Spider Mines.
Widows fire missiles while burrowed and are reusable.
The Swarm Host problem doesn't exist with Spider Mines.
I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned that SC2 has a a evolution in its lore. While the whole analysis about game play is correct, it should be mentioned that, according to lore, all the new units are stronger than the old ones. For example the Viking is an upgraded version of the Goliath, the Liberator is the upgraded Valkyrie and so on.
Explains the numbercreep haha
more like devolution the sc2 lore is bad. old broodwar lore wasnt great but at least it wasnt on the level of sc2 where they literaly putting in boring tropes like prophecies and make the entire wings of liberty campaign pointless since Hots undoes all of it.
@@soldier22881 My comment wasn't about the storyline itself but the fact that every race has a evolution to make its units stronger than they have been in BW. The Immortal is an upgraded version of the Dragoon, the Viking is an upgraded version of the Goliath and so on. This has nothing to do with "boring tropes" that you mentioned.
@@MagicRabbit oh my bad i thought for a second it was about lore. im still salty after what they did to the story in sc2.
I'm gonna be honest, I watched the 3 videos and 80% of the changes I can only think BW did it better
which is why alot of RTS players are still playing BW over SC2.
I agree. I'm committed to finishing up SC2 achievements, but I'm switching my main SC playing back over to BW because it's the superior game.
It's good.. yet sad to see so many people realizing what I did back in 2013, that BW is the superior game.
And it didn't have to be :/
The other thing about Science Vessel repair is that it is free, costinf only renewable energy, whereas SCV repair costs resources. This can make the Science Vessel repair potentially hard to balance, since the resource cost of repairing structure and mech units is a major balancing factor of the Terran health regeneration method. Zerg regen is constant and free, but slow. Protoss can only regen part of their health (shields) but this regen is quicker. Terrans can only regen health for “free” on their squishiest units (bio units) and require Medivacs to do it. Their mechanical health regeneration is EXTREMELY FAST, but costs resources in exchange for this speed and requires workers. Giving them an option to repair mech units and buildings that is slower but free would be difficult to balance, either being useless due to the supply and resource cost of the science vessel itself, or overpowered and allowing Terran to regenerate for free.
That's a great point actually, indeed it'd be almost impossible to balance, or it had to use resources as scvs
They would most likely heal and go OOM very quickly, to the point of not being worth it and cutting into all of their other spells.
Many units create free value, be it directly like swarm hosts, or indirectly via energy anyway (the old sentry pushes, high templars, infestors etc.) - which sometimes caused the problems on its own (swarm hosts, manausers leading to either passive plays or all-in style timing pushes), but brood war literally works with "i kill you" spawn broodlings spell being a thing against tanks.
If science vessel would regenerate energy and generate money slower than 2 SCV (or however much supply it would use) - it would be inferior to it other than some edge cases like splitmap superlategame 1 hour games.
Some of the answers are just "they are replaced by something else". I don't think that's a good answer. With more veriety comes more strategies and possibly new fun ways to play. Goliaths, as an example, could be a mech variant of marines for a more mech-heavy army style. Medics could be a more spammable option to medivacs and be a substitute in case your enemy happens to be really strong against air. Over all I just think it's just a way to not make the game to complicated because it becomes easier to balance the races with fewer units.
I wish they had gone more for a StarCraft 1.5 . . . .
The only one I miss that they should have never scrapped from multi-player was the Science Vessel. One of my favorite spell caster units of all. And part of my strategy in many SC1 games.
I would like to try a SINS Rebellion split of the factions bringing the Brood Wars units back into the game.
Terran Raiders (BW)
Terran Dominion (S2)
Protos Kahala (BW)
Protos Scion (S2)
Zerg Overmind (BW)
Zerg Queen (S2)
Babe wake up! Esports storyteller posted a new video!
I ve heard they removed Medics cause of how bad they would be sexually harrased by Marauders
Loved the Science Vessel. It was flexible for defense and offense where Irradiate could be helpful against bios units while defense matrix could guard valuable units. They were very fargile and cost lots of gas so investment into them balanced them out.
I like SC2's take on the terrans and the multipurpose use of their units like the Siege tank, Vikings, and Liberators it's such a neat use of 1 unit that's beneficial in a variety of uses.
I miss the wraith. What i would like to see is a customizable army units tree, with related upgrades from BW or SC2. No one would have the same combination and even if they do, they would share the ssme weaknesses. That way, i could get rid of reapers and ravens that are completely useless as compared to the science vessel and add wraiths and goliaths to my tech tree.
Love that you add artosis losing his mind.
He is a legend
Ah yes, landed Viking
The power of the Marine in a big fuck off mech. Truly amazing and is used everywhere.
Actually it's a great harass sometimes and anti tech
@@EsportsStoryteller Honestly i'm far from expert on the subject, but usually when you make vikings, you make a decent number of them and to counter air, which at that point means most of enemy's army is air.
I guess it can be used to clean some ground structures in-between fights, but that's really it.
I kinda wish we had goliaths and thors but with later being less effective against air.
Thors are kinda busted.
I guess that from outside point of view Blizzard's game design in Starcraft 2 related to units is very, very inconsistent.
As if "different things were planned and carried out by different people who didn't really talked with each other".
@@EsportsStoryteller After being useless for something like 10 years and needing 2 or 3 buffs to make the button competetively useful and not basically a manner mule lol
You got everything backward. They got rid of these units, and then put the units to replace them. And some of the unit you mentioned werent in the game in Wings of Liberty.
I can make the exact same video why SC1 doesnt need these SC2 exclusive unit with your reasons.
They want very easy to use units that dont ask any mental effort from the player.
If you cannot A move it across the map or it stops you from A moving, it got removed.
Medics couldn't keep up with reapers, so they merged the two.
The irony is that nobody ever used Medivacs to heal Reapers, and just gave them out of combat auto-healing instead.
I mean, it's not like units that have been kept around didn't get some level of rework from BW to SC2, so I fail to see why several of the units (and sometimes abilities) couldn't be kept around.
Also, the parts where you mention that a given unit isn't quite powerful enough... Buffing it across the games is a perfectly valid option.
Personally i think almost every new unit Blizzard thought was a good replacement for the old units, always ended up worse and they had to find other replacements to remake the old units without losing face
There were good ideas for replacements. The Viking sounds like a decent replacement for the Goliath. They just made it range 9 air to air which was going to be problematic. Why not have it do more range in ground mode and have it be faster like the Wraith in air mode? Much easier to balance even though the unit becomes a mix of both units. Probably also feels better to control.
Then there was the fact that units felt a lot clunkier and slower to use which was a design decision made early on.
Correct.
Never should've replaced any of the BW units, just add new units that filled different roles without ONLY filling that role and nothing else.
I'm so glad when you mentioned Ravens, you showed a Ketroc game!
Honestly it really sucks they didn't just use all the units just rebalance them and keep them all, its disapointing not to have the entire Arsenal at your disposal... And some multiplayer things don't exist in the campaign which is also annoying
Damn, that is some old direct strike commanders gameplay. Kerrigan still having her assimilate ability almost feels weird.
I'd love to see Goliaths make it into the game along with a Thor makeover. It's never made sense to me that Thor's are so strong anti-air, it feels more like a heavy unit hammering through enemy front lines. So change the Thor to be the heavy assault kick in the door weapon, and bring Goliaths back as a primarily anti-air platform.
Brood war unit composition is better than starcraft 2. The only thing stopping me from playing brood war over starcraft 2 is the UI.
Unfortunately the scene is a bit dead right now, but Starbow tried to be BW-like within SC2's smarter engine. Plenty of games still on youtube though.
@@Appletank8 Got a link to some? Starbow was the only thing keeping SC2 alive for me back in the day.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 Tasteless and Artossis are still casting ASL
I think that a science vessel healing mech units would be really great, repairing with scvs is impractical and annoying. I think it should have been an option if it's not OP. Would be just cool to fix your units at home when not fighting, fixing mid battle would be too OP but that's not even what I want.
I guess developers want mech units to only be repaired when out of combat, at home, by scv. Maybe it would be OP to repair mid battle, but I believe it can be adjusted to be viable
@Ernesto Iparraguirre doesn't even need rates adjusted, just make a rule that if a unit is attacking or getting attacked it can't be healed by a science vessel
@@ernestoiparraguirre2745 all they had to do was make it an ability like queen transfuse as opposed to auto-cast and swap it with EMP since they gave that to Ghosts.
Blizzards obsession with eSports and "balance' ironically killed sc2 as an esport. Imagine if they didn't give a fuck about "redundant" units and just added all the single player campaign units and the original sc1 units into multiplayer and let the pros have at it. The games would be wild and crazy to watch. There would be so many more possible plays and counter plays.
Wraith did not require a control tower to build, it shot faster and cost only 150M 100G. Wings of Liberty ruined my boy.
Why I mainly only play Coop and customs. These units tht didn't make it to Ladder are very fun to play. They can be rather OP especially when played correctly, but the AI doesn't mind.
There was that time when Coop turned into a 1v1 match. All that cheese and frustrations in that short time could is equal to all of the frustrations from cheese throughout the history of the game
They turned Coop commanders into 1v1 for a time?
i think the goliath is superior to it's replacement, the viking, simply because i don't have to wait on a transform animation to slap air/ground units, i click and it just does it. the only down side to the goliath is it can't fly, which i can live with since it's basically a SAM turret with legs. vikings feel unwieldy to me since im not mashing my key board like the pros do, they take more of a nuanced focus than a goliath, if you leave them in air mode and something on the ground pokes them, they are defenceless until they transform, and if you transform them while they are being slapped you are sure to lose a few, ouch. or you can run away with them, same if they are on the ground and getting hit from the sky. Goliaths just do both and were the mainstay of my terran comp in SC1, was a shame to see it gone in SC2 but makes sense for the balance, hardly anything has Dual purpose Air/Ground attack except Marines, widow mines, hydralisk, Thor, Stalker, Archon, and maybe a few others im forgetting, everything else has only attacks air or only attacks ground as a specific role it fills. the few dual purpose exist are wither a cheap low tier unit with a single target decent DPS attack (stalker/marine/hydralisk) or and expensive late game unit that has some high damage but high attack cooldown attack (Thor, Tempest). i like thors, but god are they expensive when i just need a semi-cheap horde of AA
Voidrays, Tempest, and Carriers are basically anti-air and ground and imo probably one component of what made Skytoss so annoying.
@@Appletank8 yeah, protoss seems to get the most dual purpose units. if only protoss weren't so expensive i'd play them more. Terran and Zerg seem to suffer in this respect, neither have a ton of dual purpose options, and like i said they are either cheap early tier units that are not bad but not great, or an expensive ass late game unit like the Thor that isn't very intuitive to mass. mass thors can work, i've seen it work watching uThermal it's just slow, clunky, and a large unit model that costs more than it's truly worth in my opinion.
@@cairdin12 Thors seem to get utterly wrecked by mass Disruptors. Range too short to ward them away, movement too slow to close in or dodge.
I want Goliaths back. They're so cool.
I still miss medics and dropships. Because there are plenty of times id much rather have foot slogging medics both for the aesthetics of an infantry blob and so that they dont get singled out by anti air when supporting a marine push.
Likewise having cheap expendable transports over medivacs where you are putting all your eggs in one basket has its tactical uses.
Same for firebats, hellions are stronger but a cheaper weaker footslogger variant you can toss into your marine ball doesn’t hurt anyone.
As is evident, i am very ok with units who have overlapping roles or are the same but different tiers so disagree with blizz’s logic here.
Goliath is a sad one to me.
Vikings are same only by technicality to me, while Thors could have been something _more_ then just a bulky, slow firing Goliath.
Raven versitale lol. Its used only in tvt due to matrix on siege units and sometimes for detection in other matchups.
Yeah it used to be much better in WoL and Hots, now it got more straight forward
But you could use the antiarmor missle that could be avaiable in every matchup
It's underused.
They disable collosus vs P on the regular.
@@manueldelbono202 well yes but starport tech lab is very hard to get you need to pump medivacs so you can afford 1 max 2 (exept TvT, in this matchup you also dont care about medivacs so much).Compare it to P guardian shield that is similar spell and sentry is cheaper and much easier to get techwise. And against P ghost emp is just much better same goes for ghost snipe against Z. And raven costs more gas than ghost. And late game when you have resources to get this spell you dont really care due to fact that bio is no longer your main dmg.
Each time I see artosis rage, it make me remember why he have a pylon with his name on it
I always thought the cyclone was more a of replacement for the goliath 🤔
they had to add it in because Terran missed the goliath too much. The Viking/Thor replacement wasn't good enough. Vikings having to be built at the starport and having to land for ground attack and Thors being expensive AF.
Kinda, but worse. more fragile, more expensive, a bit worse lock on range than Vikings so there isn’t really that much of an advantage. Might as well build Thors to be able to actually ward away air units.
Cyclone was added to SC2 in expansions.
pretty much spot on with getting rid of any overlap
Firebat -> Hellbat
Medic -> Medivac
Vulture -> Hellion
Goliath -> Thor/Viking
Wraith -> Banshee/Viking
Valkyrie -> (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizz basically gutted every single dedicated air to air splash unit, devourer/corsair/valkyrie)
Science Vessel -> Raven
SC: Evo Complete is now here and we got 6 races
Thsi feels like your saddling the horse from the back. The medic and dropship were there first, followong your reasoning, the medivac woukd never have seen the light of day.
The medic change, I believe, was to move a healing unit for terran to the later stages of the game, and make em less spamable, as Starports are usually bot Infrastructure one wants ton off, compared to barracks
Vulture maneuverability is a big bonus though, many units in the game can't hope to catch up with a micro managed vulture.
>Blizzard tried to shift the balance towards ground armies
>Makes skytoss
amazing job
Because they weren't very creative. They combined Vulturs and Firebats into Hellions that transform into firebats. They renamed Spider Mines as Widow Mines. They renamed the science vessel to Raven and changed its spells. They renamed the Goliath to Thor. They renamed the Wraith to Banshee and took away its air attack and gave it to Vikings.
truth be told I would've liked the idea of unit + tech fusions - marines+reapers, medics+medivacs+hercules transport, goliath+viking+wraith+banshee, science vessel+raven, vulture+hellion+firebat, firebat+marauders. another thing I would've liked would've been the ability to infield upgrade vikings to archangels & thors to odins
One interesting thing is that ghosts aren’t usable in broodwar because of how spells there. But in sc2, ghosts are a god unit that can use EMP. If anyone had actual machine like macro in bw, ghosts would be broken, but no one is good enough to micro them. So instead the vessel has to have EMP etc
i wouldn't say broken, lockdown is pretty situational and nukes are bad. even micro'd perfectly I think the ghost is still the weakest caster.
The only thing BW Ghosts really have going for them is Lockdown which only has some viability in TvP. Against Zerg there's nuke rush and pretty much nothing else. Against Terran, the same issues as Bio in that Siege tanks splatter them, and Scan makes it hard to hide long enough to get in range. Against Protoss you might be able to Lockdown Dragoons, Arbiters, Reavers/Shuttles, but Zealots running in kinda ruin their day anyways, Vessels are far less clunky against Arbiters because they can fly over obstacles, the time it takes to get Ghosts against Reavers is time for most of your army to get blown to bits.
And if you can see Observers to lockdown, you could just easily destroy them outright.
They have a bit of a niche usage for countering Carriers, but the same issue of fragility is still there, especially if you missed an Observer floating nearby.
like Boxer lockdowning and nuking a fleet of carriers?:). Sry, but ghosts in BW are specialists casters, who are just bad
the scooter att speed is op and the floaty thing is crazy healing support for mech
The since vessel would be cool for terrans if it was something kinda like the mothership
Feels like the original vision for SC2 was to let players choose a loadout of units in multiplayer
If you wanted to roll with both Firebats and Hellions, you could. The reason being anti-bio.
If you wanted to run with Marauders and Vultures, you could. The reason being anti-armor.
If you wanted to mix and match like that, you could.
Some would say the balancing would be impossible.
I say they seemed to have found a good balance in campaign, it would not take much to make it work in multiplayer.
Firebats and Hellbats rolls overlap, but they have their strengths and weaknesses.
Firebats are slower yet much tougher, making them good for slugging it out, letting them jump into bunkers and have less intense micro.
Hellbats are faster and more versatile, making them good raiders and anti-melee, yet harder to micro.
I genuinely think they should have gone down this route as the number of strategies and tactics would have gone through the roof and made the game even more interesting.
Imagine taking an anti-bio army expecting Zerg only to end up fighting Protoss Mechs. The players would both players would have to adapt and reconsider their tactics and perhaps find new combos that might work better than expected, or at least tactics that minimize their weaknesses to edge out wins.
Have any pros played on custom 1v1 maps where these units are available? Wouldn't they make the game more interesting?
Wraith actually did a lot of AA damage. It was just expensive and fragile. Vikings were a better inclusion because sinply buffing the tickle cannons would make the games less dynamic. So vikings got a ground form.
About the Wraiths air-to-air damage, 12 Wraiths killed a Carrier faster than 12 Battlecruisers or 12 Valkyries
They should minimize overlap by having each race only field one unit. This unit then has abilities to transform into all possible roles.
Let's call it the
Siege Caster Viking (or SCV)!
would be really nice if Blizzard makes an SC2 Valkyrie with portrait and voice
I don't know if redundancy is the best reason in favour of just 'for balance reasons' instead. Imagine if you will they kept all the choices in, redundant or not, I could imagine more than a few games ending up being quick marauder firebat and medic pushes early and having little actual counter to it.
it is funny that one of my favorite defense maps called "TAR defense" on starcraft 1 started lagging real bad, and there was a name where one version had Valkyries do 2500 damage each rocket, really good, but back then the lag and ping differences for people would get so bad you'd have to sell Valkyries for other anti air units, but ever sense the polish we got for an upgrade of Starcraft 1, what was once a really challenging map was downright easy, so I'd definately say Valkyries, as much as I miss them, were definately lag generators.
It was not a lag but entity limit known as "ccmu" (cannot create more units). Original starcraft supported only 1650 units+projectiles, and refused to spawn/build/shoot more, leading to projectile units (anti air scouts, valkyries, anti air wraiths etc.) not shooting when ordered to - something that valkyries that shoot a lot of projectiles suffered from the most.
There's really both, cuse i do remember the limit thing, but there was alot of latiency issues because we didn't have the great internets we have now.@@MajkaSrajka
I just think more units would add variety to a game fielding vultures without spidermines and hellions and then add a few widow mines would be a cool composition. Goliaths and hellbats and hellions with cyclones would be cool
for vulture, its really easy to break the engine by placing thousands of widow mines, this causes the game to stop allowing people to build units and those built become 'ghosts' that take supply and do nothing
5:14 They aren't free abilities; they cost energy (and usually research beforehand).
I'd personally say that Vultures didn't make the cut because of the generally increased tempo of the game, where one Vulture with some mines could easily block enemy expansion efforts across half the map.
2:57 You're kind of wrong here. Though they can land on the ground, Vikings are not really ground-based units. As you know, Goliaths are produced in Factories not Starports, which is affected by the player's build priorities. The current, non-Tech Lab Factory units that can do the Goliaths' role are Cyclones and Widow Mines. Moreover, the Goliaths' main role in Broodwar is being the long-ranged, anti-air ground unit. They are the ground units that deal with Guardians. However, in SC2, the Goliaths' range & targeting upgrades are limited to the single-player campaign. If they were added in Multiplayer, they would have been the ground counter for Broodlords & Tempests.
3:37 Wraiths are the actual Starport units that have been replaced by Vikings. Imo, Wraiths are the better than Vikings because they have cloaking and they do not need to spend time changing modes.
4:33 Each air unit fulfills multiple roles? Don't make me laugh. Can Banshees attack air units? NO. 4:47 No need for advanced anti-air units? View more professional matches. Many matches were won by having a massive number of air units - mass mutas, mass vikings, mass BCs, mass tempests, etc. 4:53 Vikings are enough? I cannot take that seriously. Can a single Viking hit multiple targets? NO, because their AoE/splash damage upgrade is limited to the campaign.
6:20 Heh... many in Coop mode seem to hate using SCVs for repair (even though Swann's SCVs repair at 0-cost!). Another issue is Sci Vessels don't repair buildings.
firebats are way better than hellions
same as the medic and they could ahve replace the medvac from the transport vehicle from the campain
reason why science vessels were replaced was because of PTSD from Battle on the Amerigo.
Valkyrie would be great anti mutalisk niche unit... Maybe against mass void/Phoenix also
liberator anti air attack needs a buff man give terran some aoe anti air to counter the 60 apm protoss players
It got nerfed because people were complaining about how it deleted air fleets. I'm a bit baffled why they didn't reuse the same damage logic as BW's, or Widow Mines which already exist in game, which actually reduced the splash somewhat.
First, they did rapid fire of low damage attacks, meaning armor scuffs them pretty hard. Second, like Widow Mines, they only do full damage against the primary target, everyone else in the splash takes half damage.