Telling a Story in Wrestling
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2018
- DAVE KNOWS that wrestling is at its best when it tells a story. Storytelling in the WWE or WCW or ECW or TNA or NJPW is of such importance because it makes us care about the match and the outcome. However, sadly, wrestling sometimes overlooks telling a tale. Which is why it's important that we remember just how fundamental it is.
- กีฬา
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Indeed, the simplest story is usually the best story.
Right on
if done right, not over thunk, and the people involved don't overestimate themselves a complex story can be great but a lot do fall flat
One of the best bits of storytelling I have ever seen was Summerslam 92, Bret Hart vs Bulldog. The build to the match, the match it self, and the payoff at the end was well done and logical,
Very true.. I like all that as well
And Bulldog did it all with a RAGING post-bender hangover
Story telling is one of the most important aspects of a good match for me, so I'm really glad you covered this.
I discussed this on a podcast recently but I'd love to ask it here for both you and the Know it All Nation to answer. >>>IS STORYTELLING IN RING DYING OFF.... OR IS IT SIMPLY EVOLVING?
Great video, as always!
Jenna Leigh's Beauty Slam As for storytelling, don't think it is. Good storytelling on the other hand, that could be more debatable.
I think it depends. I have noticed it's beginning to fade just a bit in New Japan. Some of the longer matches that are popular aren't as telling as I prefer. But again, how much narrative can you really tell in a 50 minute long fight sequence? However, while not always, I think in the WWE, especially NXT, it's evolving. This is one area where I feel WWE still has an advantage
Dave Knows Wrestling if you're referring to the okada/omega matches. The length of the match tells a lot of story itself considering that a big part of the story of omega and okada was a battle of endurance
Jenna Leigh's Beauty Slam Hi Jenna! How r u? I personally think it depends on the promotion & it's divisions. Examples: WWE. Main roster wise, I feel it sucks especially the undercard & tragically, the women's on both shows, yet, NXT, is outstanding with TakeOver being the best shows, & it consistently outshines the main PPV's. ROH is again, IMO, the most balanced in all cases, undercard & Main Event. Lucha Underground has outstanding storytelling since day 1, & Impact, after a long struggle under Dixie, is finally making sense in all areas. I'll tell u what I've told Dave. Vince once said that his greatest goal was 2 become "The Walt Disney Of Wrestling." & in doing so, has sold out his product, which is true wrestling storylines, 4 the nonsensical crap we r tortured with 2day which is called "Entertainment.". I could say more but, I don't want 2 take up more of your time. I hope it somewhat made sense. Thank u very much 4 your time. Have a great day! 😉
RIP VADER
He will be very missed
c122 h122 So Sad...Vader was easily The Nicest Wrestler I ever met! A true Legend!
RIP leon white aka Vader one of my all time favorite Wrestlers :'( u well be missed #Vadertimeintheheavens
I am so upset about this. I will always be a Big Van Fan
Did he die? Man, god damn it. Now i am sad.
Wow he was a good man and a great wrestler.
In my humbled opinion, Okada/Omega Parts 1-4 was truly the best storytelling I have personally seen in my lifetime of wrestling. From Omega not being able to hit the One-Winged Angel in their first encounter to Okada not being able to beat Omega in their second and third encounter to Omega finally getting the big one! It’s just incredible storytelling and it’s rare for me because anytime two guys go at over again, i immediately tune out.
The fact that Okada/Omega caught my attention especially with their long matches gave me hope as a wrestling fan moving forward. Thanks for reading this Dave
RIP Vader
Will always be a fan
Well it's obvious that new japan is the current leader in terms of storytelling
However I do believe that matches that are solely based on moves and don't really have a definitive story have a place in the buisness
I think the idea of 2 world traveled pros coming into a promotion like PWG to showcase their talents is really cool
Sometimes the spectacle of purely the wrestling itself is enough to draw the audience in
I also think that there's ALWAYS A story, some are just too straight forward and simple
I don't think I've ever seen a match with no storytelling elements at all
I respectfully disagree, I think NJPW is beginning to lose its a bit of its storytelling. Some of the longer matches seem to have momentum shifts happening more randomly towards the end. Sure, wrestling for an hour takes a toll, but I think that's the price you pay for putting on a marathon
Dave Knows Wrestling I think you really need to stop sucking off the wwe, and living off nostalgia dude lol. For example The naito vs okada Match at wk 12 told such a great story, but you need the proper background to understand. Such as naito playing to the crowd, and devolving back to his stardust genius gimmick which had failed him previously when he first won the g1, and ultimately cost him the match at wk12 . To me it just seems like you are a hesitant outsider who just attacks things due to being out what you usually watch 🤷🏻♂️.
Dave Knows Wrestling wut
Maybe it doesn't translate to people who don't watch new japan a lot, but there's no other company doing better stories than New Japan both in the ring and outside it
Okada vs naito, okada vs tanahashi, okada vs omega told better stories than any WWE match in the last decade
And of course the momentum changes a lot in those longer matches, it's done to portray the wrestlers as equals hence getting the crowd more invested
It is also a fitting climax to a long match
The same thing happens in NXT
Simple, straightforward storytelling is how to do it, and NJPW is the best at it. I'll grudgingly agree that the WWE has good storytelling, at least sometimes. The WWE just has too many bad storylines. NJPW is prone to bad storylines occasionally, not as much.
RIP Vader.
He was one of my favorites and so underrated in the WWF
Dave Knows Wrestling it's almost criminal how he was treated in WWE.
Story telling is one of the reasons why I like Okada vs Tanahashi matches. They are all brilliant.
I think they are much better than Okada/Omega matches because Okada/Tanahashi tell better stories together. I am with you
How about the 4 Patt series of Okada Vs Omega? That was a freaking 4 part movie they told. That was freaking awesome!!!!
True, a great saga indeed. But I doubt Dave was referring to that when he talked about the lack of storytelling. Personally I'd say the infamous Ricochet VS Ospreay was the best example of guys flipping around doing nothing to each other. It was a different kind of circus act, they were doing acrobatics like those in the "Cirque du Soleil", but not really wrestling.
@@anxofernandez3344 I would argue that match was about two of the best high flyers in the world trying to prove the best. That's why there's a lot of posturing and taunting throughout. It's also why when both they did the fake suicide dive to superhero landing they didn't try to attack the other but just keeping looking each other in their eyes. I'll admit the lack of selling hurt the storytelling but an argument could maybe made by that it was done in service of the story cause their drive to be the best was allowing them to push past the pain. Just another way to look at it.
@@mikecabral2420 Ricochet himself has said that before he started in NXT he had never worried about storytelling, he knew that he could go and he was a good wrestler but he never thought about the story or how selling a certain way, taking time before doing something, choosing the best move at the right moment of the match...those things weren't in his mind and they clearly aren't on Osprey's now either. It's a different thing, it's more "entertaining" in a short period of time, but worse on the long run because there's no story.
That's impossible! It's not from the 80s! It's not 7 foot tall muscular men!!!
Or so the boomer wrestling fans tell me
Thanks again for another great video Dave. I am always looking forward to these videos. Take care man.
Thank you and you take care as well
Rip vader
Big Van Vader forever
Finally got around to watching this after the discussion earlier. Great Video.
BTW It was awful nice of you to put Simon Gotch & the Monopoly Man's Love child in the carnival cartoon! 😂😂 🤼🤹
Thank you.. I've been waiting for someone to acknowledge the cartoon
Cool video Dave.
Thanks
This was great
Thank you
Makes me think of the recent NXT Takeover and the Baszler vs Cross match. A simple story, but also an unusual story, told with a match. Just a basic tale of one combat advantage falling to another combat advantage. Love those types of thing, that are about actual battle strategy! So cool whenever they do something like that.
I loved this story too.. made me wish the crowd was a lil more into because I thought they were telling a great tale. Also, it's another reason why I like Baszler over Ronda
Baszler and Rousey is basically night and day in terms of how to handle an MMA star's introduction vs how to mishandle an MMA star's introduction. I am probably among the least inclined to give Ronda praise (being someone who finds neither spousal abuse nor transphobia funny or acceptable), but credit where it's due, it takes something special to weather that kind of monumental bodge job and still remain popular. Though absolutely no question about it, Shayna's leagues ahead. Such an effective heel, both in ring and out.
What is it with everyone renaming the rear naked choke the "something clutch", though? Now that that's happened twice, I think it's allowed to count as a trend. Is Baszler paying tribute to Joe with that? Neither of them modify it whatsoever, and it already starts off with the best generic move name ever.
I think PG WWE thinks Rear Naked is too racy. I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is calling the school boy a roll up.. is it because of the Joey Stylez comment on Big Dick Dudley that one time?
Isn't a roll up just any type of pinfall involving a roll? So the school boy would count, then... just being more vague about it. So I hadn't noticed that happening, because it hadn't registered in my brain as an alteration. But that is curious. It could be that, I guess? I don't remember what the joke was (I'm assuming it was a racy joke) but I can make a safe guess I think. They call it "school boy" in the video games... video games that still get a lot of other move names totally wrong.
If they think "rear naked choke" is too racy then first, they need to distance themselves from MMA because that's a damn insult when that sport doesn't give a damn about it and second, someone seriously needs to have a talk with them about the "five knuckle shuffle". HOW have they not figured that out yet.
What next, they gonna rename the irish whip because a whip could refer to BDSM? Is the Rock gonna return for a one-off and do his famous finisher, the Rock Slam onto someone? Is some cheating heel gonna use the attire, rather than grabbing the tights, because grabbing the tights sounds rude, and using the attire doesn't? Is a clothesline gonna almost take someone's hair off now, rather than head? Are belly to belly suplexes now cuddleplexes? Actually that last one I do kinda like, that's hilarious. :)
All this while they routinely have half their matches involve outside dives and buckle/rope suplexes, it just doesn't make a lick of sense that you'd be so oversensitive about something actually-harmless like not-even-very-harsh language, whilst not giving a shit about something actually-dangerous like the standards of risk taking you're forcing up by overdiluting. Uh. What a messed up set of priorities.
I think if there is one thing I'd wish back from the attitude era (very much not my favourite era, involving a lot of elements I'm glad to see the back of), it'd be them not giving a shit about move names. Just... the sheer absurdity of having someone choke someone else out, and thinking "that's not palatable to children... change the name of it, okay it's fine now". Either they're sensitive souls who wouldn't be drawn toward watching theatrical violence in the first place, or they're not. So if any of your audience is watching, none of your audience cares. Stop it, WWE.
And please, stop having everyone throw everyone into the turnbuckle or ropes. So risky. Why is this a trend? Goodness me, I'm in a ranty mood tonight. Sorry. lol
The Roll-Up was originally one of three terms designated exclusively for the O'Connor Roll.
Also I was just kidding about the term being too racy.. I have no idea why.
And I totally agree on all your points about safety and wonder why they have become trends as well
To me, some of the best story telling on the indies actually has come from two companies that people probably wouldn't expect it from: Chikara and CZW. Some might not expect it from Chikara, as it tends to be on the comedic side, but the BDK in 2010 and the recent "Chikara closing" stories were very intriguing. And in CZW, Cage of Death 15 and Joe Gacy in 2017 told pretty good stories with the violence.
One if my favorites was when Ole Anderson & Dusty Rhodes were teaming in a Steel Cage match, & Ole turned on Dusty & took his boots off & beat Dusty to a bloody mess....It took months of Ole playing face trying to gain both Dusty & the fan's trust, Then BAM! 🔪 Stabbed him in the back. I remember watching the Horsemen follow Dusty in a car, then attack him, tie him up & beat him down right outside Crockett's office. Great Story that took a year or to pay off. Back when fans, Wrestlers & promoters has attention spans. LOL
Also The Undertaker & Cena at WrestleMania this year...GREAT STORY Told by Undertaker without having to say 1 single word. Undertakeraker tries to Retire, but Cena won't let him. Cena calls Taker out week after week with no response, until Cena digs in deep & makes it personal. Still no word from The Deadman... Finally just as it seems Cena is done for the night after the Elias stuff...The Lights go out.. Smoke starts to fill the voids...Then we see Undertakers Coat, Hat & Gloves right where he left them Exactly 1 year ago...Then the Lightning strikes down & destroys em!
⚡⚡🔥🎩⚱️⚰️🔥⚡⚡ 🕴️
Amazing Symbolic Message! UNDERTAKER destroys Cena in less than 3 mins. *Don't Disrespect The Dead...Let Sleeping Dogs Lie...Be Careful What You Wish For, You Just Might Get It!* ⚱️⚰️
Amazing story telling if you ask me...
Thank you.. you get it
👍👍👍
My brother and friend decided to watch Takeover Chicago II with me, and they arent the biggest fans of wrestling. But they were completely into Gargano v. Ciampa mainly due to the story.
Very nice.. if that match couldn't get ya.. I don't know what will
I'll never forget The Miz vs Dolph Ziggler at No Mercy 2016, it's a match that if you put it in a random PWG show wouldn't steal the show, but how they developed the story made it a classic
Miz/Dolph was a real good story
Dave I was wondering if you would give us four or five examples of Summer your favorite matches that have great stories please nothing of the obvious.
Appreciate you and your hard ass work!
DUPE'
First off thank you for all your support. Second, since I'm not 100% sure what counts as obvious, I will just go with some that I really like off the top of my head that I don't think were very high profile. Aleister Black/Velveteen Dream, HHH/Shelton Benjamin (the first time), Undertaker/Shane WM 32, Dolph Ziggler/Del Rio and surprisingly Daniel Bryan/Lesnar.
These may not be my favorite matches or even great all round. I just think these are standout examples of different kinds of stories that I got sucked into. I wanted Dream to get Aleister's respect. I believed Shelton was a rookie that could beat HHH. I saw how Shane wouldn't quit until Undertaker put him out of his misery (I was there live and it read even without commentary) I felt bad for Ziggler coming off of injury getting kicked by Del Rio. And I totally thought it was more of Lesnar's garbage squashes until D Bry turned it around and he began to give me hope that he could win.. even though I never fully bought into it, there was a glimmer of hope.. and with as sour on Lesnar as I am, I'm surprised that they were able to get that.
As I write this, I thought of a whole bunch more, but that'll do for now.
I'll admit, I don't normally like story telling due to predictability (especially tag matches), but it's awesome when done right, like the Raw Ladder Match of Jeff Hardy vs (I'll make you famous) Undertaker.
That was a really good story match
I've always said the difference between a good match and a great match is storytelling. A match where two incredible athletes showcase their skills is fun to watch but a match where two incredible athletes showcase their skills while telling an amazing story can be unforgettable. Look at RVD vs Jerry Lynn or Okada vs Omega or HBK vs Taker at WM 26 as examples.
Well I do understand your overall point
Dave I know you may not think the Okada Vs. Omega matches may not be your favorite but a great part of why so many people love their series of matches for the reason of storytelling. In the beginning of the feud Okada, Omega lost. He was the up and comer but couldn't hold a candle to the veteran Okada. As the feud moved on Omega would scratch closer to the win. He would end up winning one of these matches, but just barely. Their last match was to cement the fact that Omega had surpassed Okada as a wrestler and Omega got the win without question. This along with the in ring storytelling is why many people view these as some of the greatest matches in modern history. But that's just my thoughts! Let me know what you think!
Cainyoyo and the call backs too. Such as okada and the fabled wrestle control or omega with the styles clashes. I just feel wwe marks like Dave don’t ever give new japan or indies a shot so they fail to understand proper story telling, and just boil
It down to “it’s just flips and shit “
As someone who started watching wrestling in the 80's, I take exception to the idea that WWE has cornered the market on storytelling or that indy stars won't tell stories. For Example: Osprey gets slammed by fans for being a spot monkey, but his matches with Scurrill and Kushida both contained excellent stories involving his previous inability to defeat them, and the lengths he was willing to go to reverse those results against him. Another example, The Young Bucks have been selling injuries for *months* and those injuries have been shaping the narrative of their matches. So. The reason why Meltzer and others rate matches like these so highly is that the stories they tell are tighter than the vast majority of what's being offered by the WWE at this point (particularly on the main roster). There are exceptions, but in general I'll take Okada-Omega over the punch-kick-taunt-finisher formula matches that were offered as examples of master storytelling from the 'E in recent years. That's just me, though...throwing some more fuel on the fire.
I would actually say NJPW has the best storytelling. Susuki vs Liger had some of the best storytelling of all time. Also The Golden Lovers vs The Young Bucks. When Kenny started crying it really got to me.
HBK vs Hitman at WM 12 ??
I think that match had a great storytelling going on...
my problem is the long title reigns. I know, they've always done this in the past, and I get pushing the popular superstar and everything, but what creates rivalries and feuds is when the titles change hands.
I also like when they give the bad guys the title to create that heat and feud between them and the good guys. -- Stone Cold and the Rock, John Cena and Edge. I just wish titles would change hands a little more frequently. I also have a problem with the fact that WWE doesn't give a lot of guys more title shots, there are a lot of guys, past and present that deserve more titles, but it seems like WWE is afraid of putting them on them, for whatever reasons.
Dave looks like eric bishoff kinda
But my hair color doesn't come from a box unlike Easy E
Shawn Michaels v Rick Flair
Shawn Michaels v Undertaker WM 26
Triple H vs Undertaker WM 28
As bad as the match was, Roman Reigns v Undertaker WM 33.
Jeff Hardy v Edge Extreme Rules 2009 (the final chapter in an incredible rivalry)
Thanks for sharing
Or rap songs about "Consensual Penis". But yeah, was the story telling part that from when I was a little girl, got me more into wrestling than UFC.
Agreed.. it's what makes something compelling and captivating
Dave Knows Wrestling I remember telling people that I prefer a good storyline to go with my fights.
It's one of those things you don't appreciate til you see it.
I really like your name
@@DaveKnowsWrestling I can't believe you actually replied haha 😆
great fucking video, you're doing a service for the kids.
I thought so.. but if you read some of the comments... Thanks anyway though
on the subject of storytelling any one else annoy when the committers say the match you just watched was completely different then remember it sort of throws me off. first time i remember them doing that was brock vs hhh in 2013 when they said oh hhh was utterly dominated but hhh got 3 finshers and brock used a low blow
Yes.. but inaccurate commentary is something Michael Cole has conditioned me to expect from the WWE
How can this vid be 10 mins old and already have a fake wrestler account? Keyword searches?
Umm I don't know
but does dave know storytelling?
Dave can you please do a video on the guy in the green Shit that’s at every wwe show in the same seat with the same outfit I have not seen anything about him on TH-cam and i just want to know if anyone else noticed him and if you can tell me how he is able to be at every wwe show but can’t afford to get new clothes please and thank you
Hahah. I have taken note of him too... I never thought to do an episode on him.. but that's interesting
I never noticed him...but I have noticed KidBehindACamera...& The old ECW Regs like Sign guy & Hat guy! LOL 🤣🤣🤣
Mike Mirch he sits like right in the center on the side facing the hard camera
Dave Knows Wrestling please do
"you don't get to miss an outside dive and get up 30 seconds later like nothing happened."
WWE Videogames: im bout to ruin his whole youtube channel.
big van vader passes away and big cass gets released not a good week for big wrestlers.
Vader is gone man I like some of match's against Sting and Hogan. Vader should have beating Hogan at Super brawl 1995 and won the heavyweight title.
I think there's a better example of someone he should have beaten for the title
Shawn Michaels right?
Yup
Figures
Nobody under 35 in wrestling has an earthly clue how to tell a story in a match or has interest in learning how to. They just want to suck up to Dave Meltzer and have 45 minute 10,000 long 2s trading gymnastics moves just for the sake of having 45 minute 10,000 long 2 s trading gymnastics moves matches hopefully in Japan so he will give them 46 stars or however many it is now it changes every week.
Yeah I actually agree with you Arthur.. I can already tell that this is a can of worms that will lead to a geek rage fire... it's already starting, but I am on your side
Dave Knows Wrestling What we agree on something Dave????😲😲😲😲 lol
Arthur Prior I strongly disagree.
Arthur Prior I've made a comment on the Okada Omega match since I think that's one of the series of matches you're talking about is.
Arthur Prior Arthur, this is by far & wide, 1 of the greatest comments I've ever read. U truly due understand this great sport, in the complete sense. U sir, have my utmost respect. I normally reserve these words strictly 4 Dave, but 4 u sir, I make the great exception. U the man Arthur! 👍 👌 ✊
Wrestling was only good in the 80s and 90s. That’s why I like WWE network
Well enjoy it while you can
@@DaveKnowsWrestling while I can?
WWE Network in the US is not gonna be around much longer. WWE content is going to the Peacock. What changes will that mean.. we can only guess
Is it bad that the first thing I thought of when reading the title of this video was my man, Corny Jim Cornette? I've heard him say about (mostly old) matches "telling a good story" a thousand times. And how storytelling, like "wrestling" is dead. :)
Not at all. I think guys like me (who are of a certain age) want storytelling. Younger fans think storying telling is something totally different.. as I found out from the comment section on here
BTY Dave your boy Austin copy other wrestler finishing move.