Love that you have the plan down to the day….just keep in mind that all boat projects seem to exist in another reality where time moves at a different pace…I don’t think Einstein ever messed around with boats…😂
@@SailingSVLynx I am currently building a prowler 1360 for a client the boat is fully constructed and at fairing stage it's at a standstill at moment will start back on it in about 12 months, in mean time have designed and are building 8 m power cat and hoping to be finished around Christmas this year, have been a schoinning builder for 20 year's now and have had a long relationship with Jeff and all the Shionning fam for many years, keep in touch and cheers from Australia.
I can see your project management experience coming to the fore. There is a factor which you may of built into it and not bothered to explain depending on where you got your metrics from. It actually could be good for you if not taken into account but you probably have already done so. This is the fact that unlike most projects your workforce is inexperienced. Therefore if the subtasks are based upon how long you estimate to complete them as of now this will not hold true as many will be either repetitive or have partially transferable skillsets which you will of acquired during earlier parts of the build. i.e. when laying strip 1 onto the hull this will take much longer than strip 120 or hull 2 will go much faster than hull 1. Of course you may of averaged this factor in already. I only mention it not to be a clever sod but because if this factor has not been taken into account you could be scrambling towards the end of a phase getting supplies etc into phase for the next one maybe weeks earlier than expected.
Agreed. And yes, we have factored in some of that, but still know that these are just estimates... meaning, they won't be right. Overall, we have figured in a 40% longer build than what Schionning told us it will take to build the boat.
They are a great looking cat, I think Schionning' s come from Australia or are designed here; I see quite a few of them up and down the Queensland coast. Have a look at the 62 foot cat I designed and built 40 odd years ago at; ue&co 'things I've built and lived in' Remember, nothing ever goes to plan when building. My cat was a bit before it's time; arex foam, glass, light steel space-frames, pull up rudders, kick back centre-boards, sloop rig with aerofoil mast,2 yanmar 33HP engines with lift up long shafts... with everything up the boat drew 6 inches and that was very handy ... best of luck ue on the Sunny QLD
Yes, Schionning Design started in Australia, though I have been working with the South African office on my Solitaire 1520. I tried to look at your cat but would need something more to find it. Maybe I'll see you when I sail S/V Lynx to Australia!
I like the different design for the breakaway on the rudder cartridge even though it is way more complex than the original system which is normally a bad thing. That 3D printer looks great maybe you could save some money by producing standard components such as cleats or more complex items such as clutches. It could potentially save you thousands.
We will print as much as makes sense, but some things that are mass produced are cheaper to purchase than print. It's one off items that make sense for 3D printing, or if you are in middle of nowhere and something breaks, then cost doesn't matter.
Very informative and well done video, as usual. One suggestion…you should put a small indented slot in the upper stern face of the rudder box that will act as a handle you can grab to manually pull up the rudder. And ( if not already provided) a way to keep the rudders in the up position when desired.
I was thinking of putting one at the end, high up. Then it isn't where we walk, yet it would be easy to reach to lift the rudder box. I will have the handle cavity angled down slightly so it doesn't collect water.
Thank you for sharing your thought process on all the elements you modify moving forward with your build! It's nice to see the thoughts and constraints you consider as you examine each system. Question- Are you planning to have any video surveillance / FLIR / security /systems on SV Lynx? If so have you made any decisions on one that will best suit your needs & placement in the ship? I'm sure that will make informative content in the future. Best regards, Mo-
Yes, we are adding a security system to S/V Lynx and we would love to have a FLIR camera, but it isn't currently in the budget. And, you're right, we will do an episode in the future about this subject :) We have a whole list of things we would love to have on board, if we ever have the cruising kitty that finances those 'nice to have' items. Right now, we are concentrating on the 'must have' items.
Your flexy-sander electric will never last long, if you are serious about all the work you have to do, I would look at the automotive stuff, air driven, long-boards, I had a auto-body shop years ago...
@@SailingSVLynx have a look at Eastwood's DSB Contour sanding board (new vacuum enhanced flexible sanding short, medium, and longboard) simple design, controls dust and greatly increases sanding performance ..... for automotive industry but will work well for your job
@@SailingSVLynx that's right, hand sanding......just means you got to be better at fairing, you can't always use power sanders, it's really the improved dust collection, paper economy and simplicity that makes this a good option. Quite inexpensive expensive to.....just an option you might find useful
Do you remember HobieCats they had kick up rudders, forty years ago i was a Hobie sailor and use to ride the Hobie through the surf to the beach... sometimes land on the beach....
On your rudder release mechanism would it be feasible to design it with an adjustable spring? ? Increase the pressure on the spring and it would make it harder for the rudder to "give" . This way it would be infinitely adjustable.
We decided that it wasn't worth the complexity since once we dial in the correct strength, the arms won't change. We'll just print a few arm pieces and get it dialed in that way. We wanted the actual device to be very simple, using the KISS principal.
I've thought long and hard about getting a 3D printer. Designing the part is what holds me back. Scanning and using 3D design tools seem difficult to use. Could you do a video on "Here's how to replace a broken part" That would be fantastic!
I'd hate to bore folks with how to model a part, that's a long and technical subject. I taught myself to model but later I had years of practice while I was the Lead Game Designer at a couple of companies. Back then, I had my fingers in many of the game design disciplines, including modeling. I use a product called Modo to model, not because it's the best for mechanical stuff, but because it was easy to learn and that's what I spent time with in the game industry. Most folks would use something like Solidworks, but it's expensive. There are lots of free CAD software packages out there now, and lots of videos on how to model. But, maybe I'll put in a very brief bit on how I model a part into one of our videos at some point, we'll see. ;)
Interesting video. But let me say, unless you are very familiar with FIberglass construction and have constructed something similar in the past, it's going to take you at least 1/2 as long again as your estimating, and that's without any mishaps. All the best with your boat build and I will be following your boat build with interest. +1 Sub
Well, I have done some fiber glassing, but I don't claim to be an expert. However, we built in a 40% cushion in build time. Schionning estimates 6,000 hours, we plan for 10,000. And, we'll be sure to post where our estimates went wrong, ;)
Captain Rick on Sailing Sophisticated Lady has an electric powered dinghy - he has an episode where he tested different propellers for best results - have subbed from Western Australia years ago my 22 foot trailer sailer had a swing keel and swing rudder that had the COG offset to allow the rudder to reset - you could also lock in upright position - enjoyed your explanations - very clever and an improvement on the mumby rudder design - any plans for a mini skeg to protect the propeller which will be hit before the rudder ??
No plans for a skeg. It makes going about more difficult with a fixed 'fin' toward the stern and cats area already slugs when going about. We got rid of sail drives, so we'll just live with the folding props and shafts. I've seen Captain Rick's videos, but his electric outboard is not high powered, so not as useful for our situation. I have been in contact with prop manufacturers to get a more suitable prop for our e18, which is the equivalent of a 25 hp gas outboard. I'm glad you liked my kickup mechanism design. I like to design stuff, it's a character flaw ;)
I designed my own boat so I love the engineering breakdown and the use of the 3d model to showcase your boat's design and systems. I hope your 2 year schedule is kept... I thought mine would be in the water in less than a year...
Well, we will do our best. We are working on it full time, so no distractions or other obligations, so we're hopeful that we can stick to our schedule. How large is your boat and how many man hours to you have into the build?
@@SailingSVLynx Mine is a 8m(ish) trimaran. I have a design video on my channel if you are interested. Some quick napkin math and I have put in roughly 320hr into the build but well over 1000 iterating through designs. All pvc foam core, epoxy, and carbon. Zero wood. Twin motors, 5kw(ish) solar.
Well, we can't agree with that! I estimated 4.5 months, so you're saying you think it will take us 45 months, or 3.75 years just to get the canoes done and major bulkheads attached. I think my estimate will be much closer. Time will tell. In fact, we should know after just a couple of months if we are still on schedule. You can check back and see. :)
Can't wait to see the boat build process in action. How do you insure that the rudder is aligned straight in the slot in the case of automatic activation upon impact, at times when you may have the tiller hard over during a tack or jibe?
Well, with a catamaran, it is rare to have the rudders turned that hard. Pretty much only briefly when you are going about and sailing in open water. Anytime you are motoring slowly, in a lagoon or marina, you lock the rudders straight ahead and use the two widely spaced props to turn the catamaran.
The construction of the canoes using composite strip planking raises the question, - The end result only has continuous reinforcement running fore and aft which is equivalent to reinforcing the canoes with only unidirectional fibres is this the case or will additional reforcing be applied?. Typically an additional layer of double bias would be applied to provide "off axis" strength. It was also mentioned that the strip planking will be "smooth off" is this possible as the laminate will be around 1-2mm thick and will be easily sanded through? Additionally why the use of basalt over S-glass?
Well, you kind of answered your first question with your second, the canoes are layered with basalt cloth. As for why basalt, I will just post quotes from a couple of articles. "Furthermore, these products (basalt) offer performance similar to S-2 glass fibers at a price point between S-2 glass and E-glass. With these advantages, basalt fiber products are emerging as a less-expensive alternative to carbon fiber for products in which the latter represents over-engineering." And... "The chemical composition of basalt fibers is similar to that of glass fibers, but the production process of basalt fibers is more environmentally friendly and energy-saving than glass fibers, and they can automatically convert into soil medium after being discarded. Basalt fibers also have better chemical stability because of the excellent acid-, alkali-and water resistance."
I forgot to answer your question about sanding through the laminate layers. Yes, we may sand through a bit on some edges of each strip, but we will be applying multiple layers of basalt over the top of the strips, so that won't be an issue. Initially, we did forget to mention that step in the process, though we talked about the basalt later. That will add about another week or two to the entire process.
Why don't you put the turning point of the rudder lower and let it only protrude through the stern but not through the deck? There could be a little acces hatch for the emergency tiller.
You would have to solve a few issues if you wanted to do that. 1) How would you manually raise the rudders? 2) If the U-joint is below, it will be inside the hull. How would you service it? 3) When the rudder kicks up, how would you reset them and lock them back in place?
Of course, that never works. If I multiply my current estimate by two someone else will tell me to multiply that estimate by two. If I do that, someone else will tell me to multiply that estimate times two. From the start I already padded the estimate given by Schionning from 6,000 to 10,000 man hours, then added a contingency of another 3,000 man hours. So I did double their estimate, so I will stick with that until it proves inaccurate. :)
Hmm - seems like the safety design may be limited to only for a rudder operating at 0 degrees (i.e. straight) to slightly turned. If the rudder is turned say 45 degrees or more - and it is hit - would not the rudder catch on the hull between the opening and not kick up? Very real possibility when dodging bommies. I like all the planning and execution - just may have a limitation - Mumby catamarans have similar set up.
The percentage of time that you turn a rudder that severely is small and at low speed, so in those moments you just have to be careful. In the case of bommies, and any other low speed maneuver, you would not use the rudders on a catamaran. And iIf there is a danger of hitting something, like bommies, you would raise the rudders and use the two motors to maneuver. Catamarans generally just leave the rudders centered anyway and use the props to turn the boat for low speed maneuvers. .
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
Love that you have the plan down to the day….just keep in mind that all boat projects seem to exist in another reality where time moves at a different pace…I don’t think Einstein ever messed around with boats…😂
No doubt! We know there will be frustrating days and extra work beyond plans. It's all part of the process.
Parts machined in South Africa will always be good quality and cheap. I grew up in machine shops in South Africa.
Good to know, Rachael.
As a Schionning builder in Australia I am very excited about your build, good luck guys.
Which boat are you building and how far along are you? Any links to pictures/vids? :)
@@SailingSVLynx I am currently building a prowler 1360 for a client the boat is fully constructed and at fairing stage it's at a standstill at moment will start back on it in about 12 months, in mean time have designed and are building 8 m power cat and hoping to be finished around Christmas this year, have been a schoinning builder for 20 year's now and have had a long relationship with Jeff and all the Shionning fam for many years, keep in touch and cheers from Australia.
I can see your project management experience coming to the fore. There is a factor which you may of built into it and not bothered to explain depending on where you got your metrics from. It actually could be good for you if not taken into account but you probably have already done so. This is the fact that unlike most projects your workforce is inexperienced. Therefore if the subtasks are based upon how long you estimate to complete them as of now this will not hold true as many will be either repetitive or have partially transferable skillsets which you will of acquired during earlier parts of the build. i.e. when laying strip 1 onto the hull this will take much longer than strip 120 or hull 2 will go much faster than hull 1. Of course you may of averaged this factor in already. I only mention it not to be a clever sod but because if this factor has not been taken into account you could be scrambling towards the end of a phase getting supplies etc into phase for the next one maybe weeks earlier than expected.
Agreed. And yes, we have factored in some of that, but still know that these are just estimates... meaning, they won't be right. Overall, we have figured in a 40% longer build than what Schionning told us it will take to build the boat.
They are a great looking cat, I think Schionning' s come from Australia or are designed here; I see quite a few of them up and down the Queensland coast. Have a look at the 62 foot cat I designed and built 40 odd years ago at; ue&co 'things I've built and lived in' Remember, nothing ever goes to plan when building. My cat was a bit before it's time; arex foam, glass, light steel space-frames, pull up rudders, kick back centre-boards, sloop rig with aerofoil mast,2 yanmar 33HP engines with lift up long shafts... with everything up the boat drew 6 inches and that was very handy ... best of luck ue on the Sunny QLD
Yes, Schionning Design started in Australia, though I have been working with the South African office on my Solitaire 1520. I tried to look at your cat but would need something more to find it. Maybe I'll see you when I sail S/V Lynx to Australia!
Can,t wait for the build to start! I enjoy watching build vids. Boats,airplanes, tube amps ect!
And we can't wait to get started! Just four weeks now (fingers crossed).
I like the different design for the breakaway on the rudder cartridge even though it is way more complex than the original system which is normally a bad thing. That 3D printer looks great maybe you could save some money by producing standard components such as cleats or more complex items such as clutches. It could potentially save you thousands.
We will print as much as makes sense, but some things that are mass produced are cheaper to purchase than print. It's one off items that make sense for 3D printing, or if you are in middle of nowhere and something breaks, then cost doesn't matter.
You're really doing a great job with the videos. I enjoy listening to your logic!
Thanks, Bill.
It’s great to see someone building their Dream.
“If you can dream it, you can do it,” Tom Fitzgerald
You are so organised, love it!👍
Thank you! 😊
Very informative and well done video, as usual. One suggestion…you should put a small indented slot in the upper stern face of the rudder box that will act as a handle you can grab to manually pull up the rudder. And ( if not already provided) a way to keep the rudders in the up position when desired.
I was thinking of putting one at the end, high up. Then it isn't where we walk, yet it would be easy to reach to lift the rudder box. I will have the handle cavity angled down slightly so it doesn't collect water.
Thank you for sharing your thought process on all the elements you modify moving forward with your build! It's nice to see the thoughts and constraints you consider as you examine each system.
Question- Are you planning to have any video surveillance / FLIR / security /systems on SV Lynx? If so have you made any decisions on one that will best suit your needs & placement in the ship? I'm sure that will make informative content in the future.
Best regards,
Mo-
Yes, we are adding a security system to S/V Lynx and we would love to have a FLIR camera, but it isn't currently in the budget. And, you're right, we will do an episode in the future about this subject :) We have a whole list of things we would love to have on board, if we ever have the cruising kitty that finances those 'nice to have' items. Right now, we are concentrating on the 'must have' items.
Is amazing and so interesting, I love the sea, and I love sailing.
Thanks, so do we!
I hope it all goes to plan for you. You have considered everything that I can think of and more. Much luck!!!
I'll need it! No matter how much I plan, I won't think of everything. It's a BIG project, but we'll get through it, one way or another.
Lots of useful examples. Amazing project. Good quality video materials easy to watch. Thank you for your work.
You are welcome!
I love the info. Thank you
Whitney, we are glad you are enjoying the videos!
Your flexy-sander electric will never last long, if you are serious about all the work you have to do, I would look at the automotive stuff, air driven, long-boards, I had a auto-body shop years ago...
Do you know of flexible sanders to match the curvature of the hull? Drop us a link, if you do.
@@SailingSVLynx have a look at Eastwood's DSB Contour sanding board (new vacuum enhanced flexible sanding short, medium, and longboard) simple design, controls dust and greatly increases sanding performance ..... for automotive industry but will work well for your job
That looks like a sanding block with dust suction, not a powered sander.
@@SailingSVLynx that's right, hand sanding......just means you got to be better at fairing, you can't always use power sanders, it's really the improved dust collection, paper economy and simplicity that makes this a good option. Quite inexpensive expensive to.....just an option you might find useful
Do you remember HobieCats they had kick up rudders, forty years ago i was a Hobie sailor and use to ride the Hobie through the surf to the beach... sometimes land on the beach....
Up until about three months ago, I owned an 18' Hobie cat with kick-up rudders. :)
On your rudder release mechanism would it be feasible to design it with an adjustable spring? ?
Increase the pressure on the spring and it would make it harder for the rudder to "give" . This way it would be infinitely adjustable.
We decided that it wasn't worth the complexity since once we dial in the correct strength, the arms won't change. We'll just print a few arm pieces and get it dialed in that way. We wanted the actual device to be very simple, using the KISS principal.
Brilliant 👍🏻
I've thought long and hard about getting a 3D printer. Designing the part is what holds me back. Scanning and using 3D design tools seem difficult to use. Could you do a video on "Here's how to replace a broken part" That would be fantastic!
I'd hate to bore folks with how to model a part, that's a long and technical subject. I taught myself to model but later I had years of practice while I was the Lead Game Designer at a couple of companies. Back then, I had my fingers in many of the game design disciplines, including modeling. I use a product called Modo to model, not because it's the best for mechanical stuff, but because it was easy to learn and that's what I spent time with in the game industry. Most folks would use something like Solidworks, but it's expensive. There are lots of free CAD software packages out there now, and lots of videos on how to model. But, maybe I'll put in a very brief bit on how I model a part into one of our videos at some point, we'll see. ;)
Interesting video. But let me say, unless you are very familiar with FIberglass construction and have constructed something similar in the past, it's going to take you at least 1/2 as long again as your estimating, and that's without any mishaps.
All the best with your boat build and I will be following your boat build with interest. +1 Sub
Well, I have done some fiber glassing, but I don't claim to be an expert. However, we built in a 40% cushion in build time. Schionning estimates 6,000 hours, we plan for 10,000. And, we'll be sure to post where our estimates went wrong, ;)
Sounds good Phil, look forward to seeing your build get off the ground… or rather out of the container 😊
Captain Rick on Sailing Sophisticated Lady has an electric powered dinghy - he has an episode where he tested different propellers for best results - have subbed from Western Australia years ago my 22 foot trailer sailer had a swing keel and swing rudder that had the COG offset to allow the rudder to reset - you could also lock in upright position - enjoyed your explanations - very clever and an improvement on the mumby rudder design - any plans for a mini skeg to protect the propeller which will be hit before the rudder ??
No plans for a skeg. It makes going about more difficult with a fixed 'fin' toward the stern and cats area already slugs when going about. We got rid of sail drives, so we'll just live with the folding props and shafts. I've seen Captain Rick's videos, but his electric outboard is not high powered, so not as useful for our situation. I have been in contact with prop manufacturers to get a more suitable prop for our e18, which is the equivalent of a 25 hp gas outboard. I'm glad you liked my kickup mechanism design. I like to design stuff, it's a character flaw ;)
I designed my own boat so I love the engineering breakdown and the use of the 3d model to showcase your boat's design and systems. I hope your 2 year schedule is kept... I thought mine would be in the water in less than a year...
Well, we will do our best. We are working on it full time, so no distractions or other obligations, so we're hopeful that we can stick to our schedule. How large is your boat and how many man hours to you have into the build?
@@SailingSVLynx Mine is a 8m(ish) trimaran. I have a design video on my channel if you are interested. Some quick napkin math and I have put in roughly 320hr into the build but well over 1000 iterating through designs. All pvc foam core, epoxy, and carbon. Zero wood. Twin motors, 5kw(ish) solar.
The rudder box looks good, kickup, but if the rudder is turning/turned won't it hit the hull and stop the kick-up...
Generally, while sailing, your rudder is never turned that severely. If it is, you have weather helm and should adjust your sails to fix that issue.
Same question I had.
Prop shaft alignment - check out Australian design of Thompson Couplers - might be useful ?
I will check it out, thanks!
Just 10x the time and you will be spot on…
Well, we can't agree with that! I estimated 4.5 months, so you're saying you think it will take us 45 months, or 3.75 years just to get the canoes done and major bulkheads attached. I think my estimate will be much closer. Time will tell. In fact, we should know after just a couple of months if we are still on schedule. You can check back and see. :)
I will follow progress no matter what and how long. Exiting project…
Can't wait to see the boat build process in action. How do you insure that the rudder is aligned straight in the slot in the case of automatic activation upon impact, at times when you may have the tiller hard over during a tack or jibe?
Well, with a catamaran, it is rare to have the rudders turned that hard. Pretty much only briefly when you are going about and sailing in open water. Anytime you are motoring slowly, in a lagoon or marina, you lock the rudders straight ahead and use the two widely spaced props to turn the catamaran.
The construction of the canoes using composite strip planking raises the question, - The end result only has continuous reinforcement running fore and aft which is equivalent to reinforcing the canoes with only unidirectional fibres is this the case or will additional reforcing be applied?. Typically an additional layer of double bias would be applied to provide "off axis" strength. It was also mentioned that the strip planking will be "smooth off" is this possible as the laminate will be around 1-2mm thick and will be easily sanded through? Additionally why the use of basalt over S-glass?
Well, you kind of answered your first question with your second, the canoes are layered with basalt cloth. As for why basalt, I will just post quotes from a couple of articles. "Furthermore, these products (basalt) offer performance similar to S-2 glass fibers at a price point between S-2 glass and E-glass. With these advantages, basalt fiber products are emerging as a less-expensive alternative to carbon fiber for products in which the latter represents over-engineering." And... "The chemical composition of basalt fibers is similar to that of glass fibers, but the production process of basalt fibers is more environmentally friendly and energy-saving than glass fibers, and they can automatically convert into soil medium after being discarded. Basalt fibers also have better chemical stability because of the excellent acid-, alkali-and water resistance."
I forgot to answer your question about sanding through the laminate layers. Yes, we may sand through a bit on some edges of each strip, but we will be applying multiple layers of basalt over the top of the strips, so that won't be an issue. Initially, we did forget to mention that step in the process, though we talked about the basalt later. That will add about another week or two to the entire process.
Why don't you put the turning point of the rudder lower and let it only protrude through the stern but not through the deck? There could be a little acces hatch for the emergency tiller.
You would have to solve a few issues if you wanted to do that.
1) How would you manually raise the rudders?
2) If the U-joint is below, it will be inside the hull. How would you service it?
3) When the rudder kicks up, how would you reset them and lock them back in place?
As if its so easy and straight forward , mutiply the time you have come to by 2 good luck with that ,
Of course, that never works. If I multiply my current estimate by two someone else will tell me to multiply that estimate by two. If I do that, someone else will tell me to multiply that estimate times two. From the start I already padded the estimate given by Schionning from 6,000 to 10,000 man hours, then added a contingency of another 3,000 man hours. So I did double their estimate, so I will stick with that until it proves inaccurate. :)
Settings > Speed > 1.25 You're welcome.
:)
Hmm - seems like the safety design may be limited to only for a rudder operating at 0 degrees (i.e. straight) to slightly turned. If the rudder is turned say 45 degrees or more - and it is hit - would not the rudder catch on the hull between the opening and not kick up? Very real possibility when dodging bommies. I like all the planning and execution - just may have a limitation - Mumby catamarans have similar set up.
The percentage of time that you turn a rudder that severely is small and at low speed, so in those moments you just have to be careful. In the case of bommies, and any other low speed maneuver, you would not use the rudders on a catamaran. And iIf there is a danger of hitting something, like bommies, you would raise the rudders and use the two motors to maneuver. Catamarans generally just leave the rudders centered anyway and use the props to turn the boat for low speed maneuvers. .
Je mehr Teile je mehr Nachteile...
True, but sometimes its necessary.