Hi Dylan, nice video. Anyway, please note that the tension is the same all along the string, from tailpiece to tuning peg. Tension is an axial force, measured in Newton, kg, lb. What changes in the different parts of the string is the stiffness. Stiffness is defines as tension divided by length. The higher the stiffness the higher the force you need to apply to produce a displacement. Try to bend the part of the string going from TOM to tailpiece: that's very hard because the stiffness is high: tension is the same as the rest of the string but its length is short. You can think of having the vibrating part of the string attached to two stiff springs (one going from nut to tuner, and the other from TOM to tailpiece). So all the tricks you nicely explained actually change the equivalent stiffness (what you feel under your fingers) making the played part of string easier to bend (less force needed to apply a displacement).
Also, because the equivalent stiffness is less, the displacement required to change the tension (pitch) is greater. A string on a Jaguar has to be displaced further than on a Strat to change the pitch. If the string went a mile beyond the bridge, then you would have to bend (displace) the string (the same ratio) a long ways (right off the fretboard) to change the pitch (tension). Extremes in math and physics are often useful tools for understanding what's happening. Good discussion...thank you!
The displacement may change but the force required to bend a string up 1 semitone is the same. i.e. the force required to apply a fixed displacement is different but the force required to raise a fixed interval (the measurement that we're interested in) is the same.
When I top wrapped my Les Paul, I cut off the brass 'eyes' from the old strings and fed the new strings through them for spacers. That way the wound end is not exposed.
You are correct. The tuning includes the string from the tuner to the ball end of the string. Using a trem this shows up the places the string can hang up, at the tuner shaft, string tree if you have one, the nut, the saddle, the bridge plate, the ball end. Reduce friction or use locking brudges/nuts to eliminate friction points. Steeper string break points creates places to throw your guitar out of tune. Smooth, gradually, just enough is your best bet.
The Gibson tailpiece was actually designed to adjust the slinky feel by able to adjust it up and down and change the break angle of the strings, just like you can adjust the bridge height. At the factory, they are setup to balance the feel by giving the lower strings less break angle. Even with the tailpiece all the way up, some wanted even more slinky, and started to overwrap as you say.
I‘m late, but I completely agree!👍🏼 Referring bends: If there is more string length before the nut and after the bridge, (and let’s suppose the string can easily slip on those two points), while bending the ringing string gets elongated more between bridge and nut, as opposed the case of short bits before the nut and behind the bridge. A therefore longer string between nut and bridge (because it’s bend and elongated like described above) needs more tension to reach the same pitch as a shorter one. So the sideways move (speak: bend) has to have a longer way/amplitude to reach the same pitch and also more force applied. Basically you have to push the string further, and also with more force, for a bend to the same pitch. Just the initial feel of the bend feels slinkier, and the fretting. The tension on a string tuned to whatever pitch is in all its parts (before nut, between nut and bridge, after the bridge) completely identical. It doesn‘t matter if there is 2 inch or 20 inch of string before the nut and after the bridge. The tension is dissipated uniformly throughout the whole string length, if the friction on the nut and bridge goes towards zero.
Trees? Wrapping? TENSION?! Put a Santa hat on Dylan and this video could have been a Christmas special! Except it went live in April lol. Probably for the best though....if the tenth episode of season nine of The Simpsons taught me anything, it's that Christmas doesn't mix with HOT FIRE. This video is so dense with new information for me personally, I'm going to have to watch it again and hope to absorbing more of that sweet sweet knowledge.
Oh yes. I find it kind of funny also. But I think it is also a bit dangerous to give too much air to the curious beliefs of Wifey. Before you know it the most powerful and dangerous country in the world is led by such as Trump.
Great video. It should also be said that although adding string length beyond the nut and bridge make the strings feel easier to bend a set distance say 1cm; the pitch increase for that deflection is less because the change in string tension as a result of that 1cm deflection is less. This means that if you want to bend up the 2nd string 3semitones at the 14th fret you will have to push the strings sideways further to achieve that, and have more chance of fretting out or buzzing on the 15th fret on small radius fret boards. Other benefits of less pitch sensitivity to bending of longer string outside the nut and bridge is less intonation problems for chording where difficult fingering sometimes inadvertently bend a few strings a bit and less intonation problems cause by high nut to first fret clearance to prevent rattling on open strings. Jazz guitarists that use larger strings and not into extreme bending often have trapeze tail guitars that make it easier to complex chord and sound in tune.
This is why I'm puzzled that people almost always regard a slinky feel as having the quality "easy to bend." It's not the goal to bend a string but to hit a note. And how can one say farther bending distance is practically speaking "easier to bend"? Slink really only helps close to the nut. Everywhere else I would say it's harder, more unwieldy, as you need to cross over 2 string paths to get a strong 2 step bend. If low action/high stiffness is used, there is less bending distance required. Indeed this type of setup has its own problems with bending which I fully understand, but in either type of setup there is a similar degree of compromise. In either case you have to physically go about bending a little differently. So basically who cares? I just can't understand basing a setup around a small % of bent notes, and in the process make it drastically harder to chord and do most everything else. Higher action even makes the effective neck radius bigger. And funnily enough it's the high action types who remark about low action/high stiffness setups causing these very kinds of problems with other strings getting in the way of bends.
@@guyincognito320 Thank Guy, this also explains the advantage of a reverse head stock, making the 3 higher strings stiffer and taking less movement to achieve the required pitch.
After some research I found that a longer scale guitar like a strat has more string tension than a shorter scale guitar like a les Paul using the same string gauge. I used to believe it was the other way around. If you are top wrapping your bridge and adding an extra inch of length, the strings will have more tension to achieve the same pitch. Therefore bends should be harder not easier. It's not by much but it is true. This is also evident in Dylan's video using the tension scale actually measuring the tension wrapped vs. not wrapped.
After realizing this I also found that some people put 9's on their strats and 10's on their Pauls to achieve a similar feel or tension. So I tried this and love it.
Great videos Dylan. I'm still a bit confused though, at 6:30 you say the tension has to stay the same otherwise the pitch changes, but isn't a different scale guitar going to produce the same pitch even though the tension is different?
great video- explains why my jazzmaster (think of that guitar's shallow break angle and extra string length behind the bridge!!!!) always felt super odd to me.
Also I've marked my strings at the bridge and the don't move, do at the nut. So? I don't think the break angle makes the string any harder to stretch, that's a function of the string itself, it does cause more friction at those points, plus your changing where the string bends, causing more pressure to get it to stretch. but no matter what, if it slips at both points it just means you have to bend it further to get the correct note. Again pitch=tension.
There is an theorem in mathematics that postulates that if an error is allowed to persist then from that it is possible to prove any and all further errors. Dylan has done a good job of explaining practical guitar string tension elements in this video. In the comments below are some beliefs from somewhere far beyond reason.
Thanks for the physics-based explanation of why top wrapping works. I can say that it made a DRAMATIC difference in my new Reverend Super-Rev. I am used to playing a couple very slinky/bendy Fenders and play lead with alot of bending. The Rev felt very stiff when I first got it - great for rhythm but not bendy leads. So I hit upon the string break angle thing and the stock setup had a very sharp break angle (stop bar full down but strings not contacting bridge). The rest of the setup was perfect. Doing the top wrap made the .010 strings (which is my normal gauge) feel 1-2 gauges lighter. Feels like my Strat now. Butter baby! Sound difference? No idea don't care. Nothing dramatic. I did screw the stop bar pole pieces full down (finger tension) before top wrap. Since the rings on the poles are now pressing against the metal lugs in the body, I could see how it MIGHT be a more solid/transmissive connection to the body.
Great video ! Dylan, what do you think about deep string ball hole in stratocaster tremolo blocks vs shallow string ball hole blocks? That means that deep hole blocks sound less slinky than shallow hole blocks? Thank you
Thanks for the video. Can you comment on how reverse head stocks,multi-scale fret boards, and string-through-body bridges will affect tension and sustain? Also, can you comment how these items will affect a hard mounted pickup as you covered in a previous episode? -Cam
Okay. Here is a description of the test rig I built to test experimentally the effect of varying nut to post length. Take a rigid bed on which to mount the string.( In my case an 8" by 2" piece of lumber on edge) Fix to that three heavy coach screws. One as the tailpiece , the other two at different spacings to represent the two different post positions. Set up between the tailpiece screw and first post screw a bridge saddle and nut at the chosen scale length. Fix a string of uniform dimensions to the tailpiece screw then over the bridge and nut to a spring balance then a turnbuckle then fix that to one of the post screws. Tighten the turnbuckle until you get the desired pitch on the string between the bridge and nut. Record the tension reading on the spring balance. Now shift the turnbuckle to the other post screw. ( effectively changing the nut to post length ) Re-tighten the turn buckle until you have the same pitch as before on the bridge to nut length. You will find that the tension reading on the spring balance will be the same. It is also possible to test the effect of the additional length on the strings elasticity by statically deflecting the string laterally the same amount for each set-up and measuring the pitch shift . The longer nut to post length will give slightly less pitch shift because some force is used to stretch the more elastic string rather than raise the tension / pitch.
I have been an instrument maker / technician for 35 years. I have a LOT of hands on guitar experience that tells me that what you are claiming is confused and incorrect. You may be experiencing something but it is not what you are saying.
TLDR - Is 8 pound tension strings for Drop D high gain heavy metal plausible with Evertune low tension saddles/bridge? Hello all, I was thinking about going from Drop A baritone to Drop D short scale and super light strings. Looking at my favorite bands their string tension is between 15 to 25 pounds. A major reason seems to be tuning stability. If I got an Evertune low tension bridge it says nominally 8 to 22 pounds. Would tone be the biggest concern after tuning stability? I would be using a Kemper Cannibal Corpse/Death profile with a Horizon Devices Precision Drive (high gain/massive distortion) and I thought this would put less emphasis on string gauges (acoustic guitar string gauge seems to be much more important). Thanks all.
The problem here is the terminology is lacking. Confusing string tension with string flex (or whatever you want to call it). String tension is the tension needed to achieve correct pitch. Flex (or slinkyness) is how easy it is to bend the string. Longer overall string length increases the flexibility of the string but not the tension....
Great video. I did a video a while back talking about this same thing. Yours was recommended in the comments recently. Have you read about Bob Benedetto's experiment on this topic? I'm not sure if it was a blind experiment or not, but he built a special apparatus that had identical strings with varying amounts of length behind the nut/saddles, and people who handled it reported that they couldn't feel any difference. I believe those who perceive an increase in bendability when overwrapping are merely imagining it. The strings may be factually more compliant (which is the proper term for "slinkiness"), but it seems it's not a large enough difference to be perceptible to players.
Excellent video, at last someone who use solid science in stead of esotheric, self made theories based on magic rather than facts. I tried the wrap-over on my Epi LP (one of the high-end models) and here is what I found out: a) no difference in string’s “bentability”, or whatever yuo will call it, at least that I could feel; 2) no change in the tone AT ALL, only maybe a little less attack, but I’m not sure about that, which means the effect has been negligible; III) an evident, major, measurable LOSS of sustain. Now, I read comments like “Joe Bonamassa (other guitarists are mentioned as well) says that the wrap-around improves the tone (and what does that means btw?) and the sustain, so it must be true”. Hmmm... No, not necessarily: the good tone is a matter of personal taste, not a standard decided by anyone, and the sustain... well, I made the experiment myself, and I demonstrated to my self that the wrap-around do actually work, but in the opposite way! So, my conclusion is try for yourself and make your own opinion, don’t passively accept any “truth” told by anyone.
thanks man , i find a lot answer in this video , but i have a new question and problem, i have a telecaster, and i removed the string tree, and lost it, i bought a new one a put it again, and my e string broke... i don´t fucking know what to do, let the string without the string tree? is really necessary? some people tell me that the string tree help a litte bit to the string sustain or tune, that´s true ? please help me haha ... thanks
In my experience the problem with teles having string trees aren't due to the tonal properties but rather keeping the damn string on the nut. I've bought staggered posts and still had the issue on multiple tele's. So trees went back on and I wasted my money on staggered posts.
I have e-mailed a range of string manufacturers with the a question about the possible effect of different string after- lengths on string tension. I wrote to D'Addario / GHS / Ernie Ball. I'm afraid, for you,that they all replied that different after lengths can have absolutely NO effect on string tension. One of the three mentioned that longer lengths will increase the elasticity slightly , giving a slinkier string feel.
Wonderful. Thankyou. I've always felt that strings with lots of after length feel sloppier and need more pushing to get the same pitch bend. Having heavier bass strings can be good because they will take more vigorous playing without chocking out. The down side would be that the strong tone they develop through the pickup can make the slinky trebles sound weaker. Happy playing.
If wrsping a string around the stop baris adding length and friction points to the string. Does raising the stop bar to decrease the break angle really change the tone? Does the stop bar absorb more string vibration than the bridge? How much effect do you really think adjusting those large screws mounted in metal sleeves fitted tightly to the body have? Thst theory of the stop bar being raised changes tone is on weak ground. More friction points by wraping strings is like adding more string tees to the headstock. How much more movement thru the bridge does the string really have by not top wraping? Enough to really make the string "slinkier" ? I think it negatively affect the tuning more than give you a slinkier feel. I also think a roller bridge will have a more positive affect overall. Now the string trying to twist the stop bar more instead of pulling straight has what effect on tone? I think all this has such minimal change to the sound as compared to a tuning issue that may be created. Now I will agree somewhat, being aware that not all Les Paul's are exactly alike, and some will have more angle to the stop bar bar from bridge. I dont pin my stop bar,. Its just over 1/8th from bottoming out and may raise it more. I would like to see a scientific test to see how much bottoming out this stop bar affects tone when bottomed. Lol, i hope you dont see this as being all argumentative, i just have questions. I've seen a lot of guitarists top wrap. Ive always thought it lacked merit. But i could be wrong. Anyway, like your video's, a lot of good info here, I learn a lot watcing these. Thank you.
@@johnmcclinton9124 is John from my experience I kind of agree with you. On my sg2 Gibson plus I know other other Gibson or I should say other SG styles might have a different scale last anyway they I bought the guitar use and the stop bar tailpiece is a pretty high and it sustains the tone is fine I don't see any difference from that then lowering it straight down to the body I think that's a bunch of crap actually in that you'd really have to have pretty good ears if there is a difference to notice the difference not like you mentioned all guitars are different even the same manufacturer out of the same back there going to be different that's just the nature of the beast I also have a Firebird Gibson where the tail pieces all the way down flush to the body and I am going to have it razed I don't do the work on the guitar anymore because I become legally blind I'm going to have it raised because I do notice a big difference in the stiffness of strength between the SG and the firebird so I'm going to try having the tailpiece ways and see if that loosens it up a bit it's not actually sometimes I wonder if I should even do that because I like the way the guitar is just preferences thanks for your reply and I thought I replied back to you
How come nobody mentions that the more string that moves on the outside of the nut and bridge the further u have to bend the string to achive the desired pitch. pitch = tension. if u bend from a B to a C then u add string movement on the outside of bridge and nut u have to bend it further to go from a B to a C. result same tension.
Brad Tomlin That’s exactly right. “Tension” is how tight the string is pulled along it’s length, but how hard you have to push it sideways to make a bend is different. The longer the total string length, for a given scale length, the more sideways displacement, from your finger, is needed to change the pitch. This is where the “feel” thing comes in. Also, Top wrapping mostly gets the force on the bridge pointing straight down rather then forward, eliminating the forward lean you can get on older ABR bridges that screw directly into the maple.
Here is a youtube video that dismantles the curious beliefs of wifey stated in the comments to Dylan's video. "Stringtension , Jimi Hendrix and Guitarist magazine" Susan Gardener.
Susan Gardener proceeds through what is known as a thought experiment. She could have carried it on to an empirical trial but the reasoning is so self evident that it is not necessary. As I said earlier I have made an informal survey of 22 players and found that none of them share your intuitions.
I have made measurements many times over 35 years as instrument maker. None ever confirmed any of the nonsense you are trying to foist on us. Where are you're measurements?
Okay. Here is a description of the test rig I built to test experimentally the effect of varying nut to post length. Take a rigid bed on which to mount the string.( In my case an 8" by 2" piece of lumber on edge) Fix to that three heavy coach screws. One as the tailpiece , the other two at different spacings to represent the two different post positions. Set up between the tailpiece screw and first post screw a bridge saddle and nut at the chosen scale length. Fix a string of uniform dimensions to the tailpiece screw then over the bridge and nut to a spring balance then a turnbuckle then fix that to one of the post screws. Tighten the turnbuckle until you get the desired pitch on the string between the bridge and nut. Record the tension reading on the spring balance. Now shift the turnbuckle to the other post screw. ( effectively changing the nut to post length ) Re-tighten the turn buckle until you have the same pitch as before on the bridge to nut length. You will find that the tension reading on the spring balance will be the same. It is also possible to test the effect of the additional length on the strings elasticity by statically deflecting the string laterally the same amount for each set-up and measuring the pitch shift . The longer nut to post length will give slightly less pitch shift because some force is used to stretch the more elastic string rather than raise the tension / pitch.
This may be where you are getting confused. No the strat , reverse strat and jazz master do NOT have different tensions effected by the different after lengths. The elasticity may be different (slightly) between the strings but not the tension. I thought we had already agreed that if the nut is frictionless then the tension will be the same in all parts of the string. Add to that the three factors determining pitch ( T , length and mass) So if your playing length is at the right pitch the tension must be the same. What you are experiencing must be to do with elasticity which is a different thing. And from what you are saying , your experiences are the opposite of what would occur for a longer string with more elasticity. ( isn't the jazzmaster a bit shorter ? ) How are you judging more tension? Remember that if a string is more elastic it will need more bending to get the same pitch shift. I had a quick look around on the forums. About 10% of people have the wrong end of the stick while 90% have a correct understanding of this. Yes, Susan Gardener does have it correct . She is also erudite and articulate but that doesn't impact on the truth. Someone that doesn't have it sorted and bloody well should is Will from Will's Easy Guitar. Go to him for succor , he's in your camp ; wrong and confused. Don't under- estimate my ability to build and conduct an accurate experiment.Remember I am a master craftsman. Also because it is a "relative" test (one situation compared to another )the slight absolute accuracy problems of a spring balance are less significant. I'm not in this argument for any joy of winning. It is not at all a difficult problem for analysis. As I said it seems that about 90% of people can understand this correctly. I'd really like to help you sort this out but I don't know what other resources I can point you at. I have asked three string makers for their take on it and will pass on their replies. It would be great if you could come over from the land of looney guitar mythology.
I am not able to understand your language here. Can't figure what you are trying to say. The reason I continue presenting logical reasoning is that you are clearly confused. I'm trying to help you understand. I have e-mailed a range of string manufacturers with the a question about the possible effect of different string after- lengths on string tension. I wrote to D'Addario / GHS / Ernie Ball. I'm afraid, for you,that they all replied that different after lengths can have absolutely NO effect on string tension. One of the three mentioned that longer lengths will increase the elasticity slightly , giving a slinkier string feel. If I had an e-mail address I could send them to you or you might write to them yourself or I'll copy them into comments. Excuse me but it is so clear that you are wrong about this. You may be experiencing something but it is NOT caused by extra tension. It will be a whole new world for you when you come to understand. It is not a sin to be wrong but it is arrogant to be ignorant in the face of knowledge.
@Kitten Katt i'm so grateful that you chose to reply to the original comment so informatively, eloquently and respectfully! A very sound explanation for the flip-floppy nature to why we choose to abide by measurement system over an other!
i think you need a course on how to explain things better to people,do you really think that anyone is going to watch this video 18 minutes long,no way try to make another 5 minutes.
Possibly one of the single most informative videos I have ever stumbled across...
whew this is an old one
Hi Dylan, nice video. Anyway, please note that the tension is the same all along the string, from tailpiece to tuning peg. Tension is an axial force, measured in Newton, kg, lb. What changes in the different parts of the string is the stiffness. Stiffness is defines as tension divided by length. The higher the stiffness the higher the force you need to apply to produce a displacement. Try to bend the part of the string going from TOM to tailpiece: that's very hard because the stiffness is high: tension is the same as the rest of the string but its length is short. You can think of having the vibrating part of the string attached to two stiff springs (one going from nut to tuner, and the other from TOM to tailpiece). So all the tricks you nicely explained actually change the equivalent stiffness (what you feel under your fingers) making the played part of string easier to bend (less force needed to apply a displacement).
Also, because the equivalent stiffness is less, the displacement required to change the tension (pitch) is greater. A string on a Jaguar has to be displaced further than on a Strat to change the pitch. If the string went a mile beyond the bridge, then you would have to bend (displace) the string (the same ratio) a long ways (right off the fretboard) to change the pitch (tension). Extremes in math and physics are often useful tools for understanding what's happening. Good discussion...thank you!
Wow!! I just learned a lot! Thanks guys!
The displacement may change but the force required to bend a string up 1 semitone is the same. i.e. the force required to apply a fixed displacement is different but the force required to raise a fixed interval (the measurement that we're interested in) is the same.
When I top wrapped my Les Paul, I cut off the brass 'eyes' from the old strings and fed the new strings through them for spacers. That way the wound end is not exposed.
You are correct. The tuning includes the string from the tuner to the ball end of the string. Using a trem this shows up the places the string can hang up, at the tuner shaft, string tree if you have one, the nut, the saddle, the bridge plate, the ball end. Reduce friction or use locking brudges/nuts to eliminate friction points.
Steeper string break points creates places to throw your guitar out of tune. Smooth, gradually, just enough is your best bet.
Dylan never gets old, 7 years later and this vid is still relevent.
The Gibson tailpiece was actually designed to adjust the slinky feel by able to adjust it up and down and change the break angle of the strings, just like you can adjust the bridge height. At the factory, they are setup to balance the feel by giving the lower strings less break angle. Even with the tailpiece all the way up, some wanted even more slinky, and started to overwrap as you say.
I‘m late, but I completely agree!👍🏼
Referring bends: If there is more string length before the nut and after the bridge, (and let’s suppose the string can easily slip on those two points), while bending the ringing string gets elongated more between bridge and nut, as opposed the case of short bits before the nut and behind the bridge. A therefore longer string between nut and bridge (because it’s bend and elongated like described above) needs more tension to reach the same pitch as a shorter one. So the sideways move (speak: bend) has to have a longer way/amplitude to reach the same pitch and also more force applied.
Basically you have to push the string further, and also with more force, for a bend to the same pitch.
Just the initial feel of the bend feels slinkier, and the fretting.
The tension on a string tuned to whatever pitch is in all its parts (before nut, between nut and bridge, after the bridge) completely identical. It doesn‘t matter if there is 2 inch or 20 inch of string before the nut and after the bridge. The tension is dissipated uniformly throughout the whole string length, if the friction on the nut and bridge goes towards zero.
Finally, someone explained why I can't make a Floyd Rose guitar be slinky as a Strat. AND why it's lacking in tone. THANK YOU!
Best video on the subject matter. Thanks!
very good and Details about the theory behind. This video let me understand clear now. Thank you very much.
Trees? Wrapping? TENSION?! Put a Santa hat on Dylan and this video could have been a Christmas special! Except it went live in April lol. Probably for the best though....if the tenth episode of season nine of The Simpsons taught me anything, it's that Christmas doesn't mix with HOT FIRE.
This video is so dense with new information for me personally, I'm going to have to watch it again and hope to absorbing more of that sweet sweet knowledge.
Lol. Interaction in the comments section helps my search metrics .... so thank you ;)
Oh yes. I find it kind of funny also. But I think it is also a bit dangerous to give too much air to the curious beliefs of Wifey. Before you know it the most powerful and dangerous country in the world is led by such as Trump.
Yes. Lol . But it is time someone stepped in to shut down this errant bullshit.
How do you know you have different tensions?
Great vid. Very informative!
You talked about added friction with a string tree, but what about added friction with top wrapping?
Great video. It should also be said that although adding string length beyond the nut and bridge make the strings feel easier to bend a set distance say 1cm; the pitch increase for that deflection is less because the change in string tension as a result of that 1cm deflection is less. This means that if you want to bend up the 2nd string 3semitones at the 14th fret you will have to push the strings sideways further to achieve that, and have more chance of fretting out or buzzing on the 15th fret on small radius fret boards. Other benefits of less pitch sensitivity to bending of longer string outside the nut and bridge is less intonation problems for chording where difficult fingering sometimes inadvertently bend a few strings a bit and less intonation problems cause by high nut to first fret clearance to prevent rattling on open strings. Jazz guitarists that use larger strings and not into extreme bending often have trapeze tail guitars that make it easier to complex chord and sound in tune.
This is why I'm puzzled that people almost always regard a slinky feel as having the quality "easy to bend." It's not the goal to bend a string but to hit a note. And how can one say farther bending distance is practically speaking "easier to bend"? Slink really only helps close to the nut. Everywhere else I would say it's harder, more unwieldy, as you need to cross over 2 string paths to get a strong 2 step bend.
If low action/high stiffness is used, there is less bending distance required. Indeed this type of setup has its own problems with bending which I fully understand, but in either type of setup there is a similar degree of compromise. In either case you have to physically go about bending a little differently. So basically who cares? I just can't understand basing a setup around a small % of bent notes, and in the process make it drastically harder to chord and do most everything else. Higher action even makes the effective neck radius bigger.
And funnily enough it's the high action types who remark about low action/high stiffness setups causing these very kinds of problems with other strings getting in the way of bends.
@@guyincognito320 Thank Guy, this also explains the advantage of a reverse head stock, making the 3 higher strings stiffer and taking less movement to achieve the required pitch.
@@guyincognito320 but that doesn't make sense considering if you downtune a guitar you can achieve much higher notes because of less tension.
After some research I found that a longer scale guitar like a strat has more string tension than a shorter scale guitar like a les Paul using the same string gauge. I used to believe it was the other way around. If you are top wrapping your bridge and adding an extra inch of length, the strings will have more tension to achieve the same pitch. Therefore bends should be harder not easier. It's not by much but it is true. This is also evident in Dylan's video using the tension scale actually measuring the tension wrapped vs. not wrapped.
After realizing this I also found that some people put 9's on their strats and 10's on their Pauls to achieve a similar feel or tension. So I tried this and love it.
Great videos Dylan. I'm still a bit confused though, at 6:30 you say the tension has to stay the same otherwise the pitch changes, but isn't a different scale guitar going to produce the same pitch even though the tension is different?
great video- explains why my jazzmaster (think of that guitar's shallow break angle and extra string length behind the bridge!!!!) always felt super odd to me.
Also I've marked my strings at the bridge and the don't move, do at the nut. So? I don't think the break angle makes the string any harder to stretch, that's a function of the string itself, it does cause more friction at those points, plus your changing where the string bends, causing more pressure to get it to stretch. but no matter what, if it slips at both points it just means you have to bend it further to get the correct note. Again pitch=tension.
There is an theorem in mathematics that postulates that if an error is allowed to persist then from that it is possible to prove any and all further errors.
Dylan has done a good job of explaining practical guitar string tension elements in this video.
In the comments below are some beliefs from somewhere far beyond reason.
Thanks for the physics-based explanation of why top wrapping works. I can say that it made a DRAMATIC difference in my new Reverend Super-Rev. I am used to playing a couple very slinky/bendy Fenders and play lead with alot of bending. The Rev felt very stiff when I first got it - great for rhythm but not bendy leads. So I hit upon the string break angle thing and the stock setup had a very sharp break angle (stop bar full down but strings not contacting bridge). The rest of the setup was perfect. Doing the top wrap made the .010 strings (which is my normal gauge) feel 1-2 gauges lighter. Feels like my Strat now. Butter baby! Sound difference? No idea don't care. Nothing dramatic. I did screw the stop bar pole pieces full down (finger tension) before top wrap. Since the rings on the poles are now pressing against the metal lugs in the body, I could see how it MIGHT be a more solid/transmissive connection to the body.
Great video ! Dylan, what do you think about deep string ball hole in stratocaster tremolo blocks vs shallow string ball hole blocks? That means that deep hole blocks sound less slinky than shallow hole blocks? Thank you
Thanks for the video.
Can you comment on how reverse head stocks,multi-scale fret boards, and string-through-body bridges will affect tension and sustain?
Also, can you comment how these items will affect a hard mounted pickup as you covered in a previous episode?
-Cam
Okay. Here is a description of the test rig I built to test experimentally the effect of varying nut to post length.
Take a rigid bed on which to mount the string.( In my case an 8" by 2" piece of lumber on edge)
Fix to that three heavy coach screws. One as the tailpiece , the other two at different spacings to represent the two different post positions.
Set up between the tailpiece screw and first post screw a bridge saddle and nut at the chosen scale length.
Fix a string of uniform dimensions to the tailpiece screw then over the bridge and nut to a spring balance then a turnbuckle then fix that to one of the post screws.
Tighten the turnbuckle until you get the desired pitch on the string between the bridge and nut.
Record the tension reading on the spring balance.
Now shift the turnbuckle to the other post screw. ( effectively changing the nut to post length )
Re-tighten the turn buckle until you have the same pitch as before on the bridge to nut length.
You will find that the tension reading on the spring balance will be the same.
It is also possible to test the effect of the additional length on the strings elasticity by statically deflecting the string laterally the same amount for each set-up and measuring the pitch shift .
The longer nut to post length will give slightly less pitch shift because some force is used to stretch the more elastic string rather than raise the tension / pitch.
I have been an instrument maker / technician for 35 years.
I have a LOT of hands on guitar experience that tells me that what you are claiming is confused and incorrect. You may be experiencing something but it is not what you are saying.
My FCS EC strat has a string tree that doesn't have a ferrous. So 1st and 2nd strings are really steep over the nut to their tuners. Is this OK?
Great video Dylan. And about the sustain in top wrapping? i've tried in my LP and i don't hear the difference. I'ts another myth?
It's bullshit. It doesn't make a significant difference.
Dylan. What about raising and lowering the stop bar tailpiece on a Gibson style guitar where are we at that
Yup. Just do whatever you need for your setup.
TLDR - Is 8 pound tension strings for Drop D high gain heavy metal plausible with Evertune low tension saddles/bridge? Hello all, I was thinking about going from Drop A baritone to Drop D short scale and super light strings. Looking at my favorite bands their string tension is between 15 to 25 pounds. A major reason seems to be tuning stability. If I got an Evertune low tension bridge it says nominally 8 to 22 pounds. Would tone be the biggest concern after tuning stability? I would be using a Kemper Cannibal Corpse/Death profile with a Horizon Devices Precision Drive (high gain/massive distortion) and I thought this would put less emphasis on string gauges (acoustic guitar string gauge seems to be much more important). Thanks all.
Great video.
The problem here is the terminology is lacking. Confusing string tension with string flex (or whatever you want to call it). String tension is the tension needed to achieve correct pitch. Flex (or slinkyness) is how easy it is to bend the string. Longer overall string length increases the flexibility of the string but not the tension....
09:10.....how does this compare to your video in top wraping....seems opposite!
Hmm my s100 has a long distance between the bridge and tailpiece and a roller bridge its a very easy playing guitar
If it's good enough for BFG, it's good enough for me!
Great video. I did a video a while back talking about this same thing. Yours was recommended in the comments recently.
Have you read about Bob Benedetto's experiment on this topic? I'm not sure if it was a blind experiment or not, but he built a special apparatus that had identical strings with varying amounts of length behind the nut/saddles, and people who handled it reported that they couldn't feel any difference.
I believe those who perceive an increase in bendability when overwrapping are merely imagining it. The strings may be factually more compliant (which is the proper term for "slinkiness"), but it seems it's not a large enough difference to be perceptible to players.
cool video! love the visual lesson!
During the opening line, he looked like he was trying his damndest to not bust out laughing. LOL
Excellent video, at last someone who use solid science in stead of esotheric, self made theories based on magic rather than facts.
I tried the wrap-over on my Epi LP (one of the high-end models) and here is what I found out:
a) no difference in string’s “bentability”, or whatever yuo will call it, at least that I could feel;
2) no change in the tone AT ALL, only maybe a little less attack, but I’m not sure about that, which means the effect has been negligible;
III) an evident, major, measurable LOSS of sustain.
Now, I read comments like “Joe Bonamassa (other guitarists are mentioned as well) says that the wrap-around improves the tone (and what does that means btw?) and the sustain, so it must be true”. Hmmm... No, not necessarily: the good tone is a matter of personal taste, not a standard decided by anyone, and the sustain... well, I made the experiment myself, and I demonstrated to my self that the wrap-around do actually work, but in the opposite way!
So, my conclusion is try for yourself and make your own opinion, don’t passively accept any “truth” told by anyone.
In my experience, not every guitar reacts the same to topwrapping! On one it improves feel and on another, it completely fails....🤘🎸🤘
thanks man , i find a lot answer in this video , but i have a new question and problem, i have a telecaster, and i removed the string tree, and lost it, i bought a new one a put it again, and my e string broke... i don´t fucking know what to do, let the string without the string tree? is really necessary? some people tell me that the string tree help a litte bit to the string sustain or tune, that´s true ? please help me haha ... thanks
In my experience the problem with teles having string trees aren't due to the tonal properties but rather keeping the damn string on the nut. I've bought staggered posts and still had the issue on multiple tele's. So trees went back on and I wasted my money on staggered posts.
I have e-mailed a range of string manufacturers with the a question
about the possible effect of different string after- lengths on string tension. I wrote to D'Addario / GHS / Ernie Ball.
I'm afraid, for you,that they all replied that different after lengths can
have absolutely NO effect on string tension. One of the three mentioned
that longer lengths will increase the elasticity slightly , giving a slinkier string feel.
Wonderful. Thankyou. I've always felt that strings with lots of after length feel sloppier and need more pushing to get the same pitch bend.
Having heavier bass strings can be good because they will take more vigorous playing without chocking out. The down side would be that the strong tone they develop through the pickup can make the slinky trebles sound weaker. Happy playing.
Why not just decrease that break angle by raising the stop bar? Dont top wrap, just the regular way.
some will argue that keeping the stop tailpiece on the body gives greater resonance, thus achieving a better tone.
If wrsping a string around the stop baris adding length and friction points to the string. Does raising the stop bar to decrease the break angle really change the tone? Does the stop bar absorb more string vibration than the bridge? How much effect do you really think adjusting those large screws mounted in metal sleeves fitted tightly to the body have? Thst theory of the stop bar being raised changes tone is on weak ground. More friction points by wraping strings is like adding more string tees to the headstock. How much more movement thru the bridge does the string really have by not top wraping? Enough to really make the string "slinkier" ? I think it negatively affect the tuning more than give you a slinkier feel. I also think a roller bridge will have a more positive affect overall. Now the string trying to twist the stop bar more instead of pulling straight has what effect on tone? I think all this has such minimal change to the sound as compared to a tuning issue that may be created. Now I will agree somewhat, being aware that not all Les Paul's are exactly alike, and some will have more angle to the stop bar bar from bridge. I dont pin my stop bar,. Its just over 1/8th from bottoming out and may raise it more. I would like to see a scientific test to see how much bottoming out this stop bar affects tone when bottomed. Lol, i hope you dont see this as being all argumentative, i just have questions. I've seen a lot of guitarists top wrap. Ive always thought it lacked merit. But i could be wrong. Anyway, like your video's, a lot of good info here, I learn a lot watcing these. Thank you.
@@johnmcclinton9124 is John from my experience I kind of agree with you. On my sg2 Gibson plus I know other other Gibson or I should say other SG styles might have a different scale last anyway they I bought the guitar use and the stop bar tailpiece is a pretty high and it sustains the tone is fine I don't see any difference from that then lowering it straight down to the body I think that's a bunch of crap actually in that you'd really have to have pretty good ears if there is a difference to notice the difference not like you mentioned all guitars are different even the same manufacturer out of the same back there going to be different that's just the nature of the beast I also have a Firebird Gibson where the tail pieces all the way down flush to the body and I am going to have it razed I don't do the work on the guitar anymore because I become legally blind I'm going to have it raised because I do notice a big difference in the stiffness of strength between the SG and the firebird so I'm going to try having the tailpiece ways and see if that loosens it up a bit it's not actually sometimes I wonder if I should even do that because I like the way the guitar is just preferences thanks for your reply and I thought I replied back to you
How come nobody mentions that the more string that moves on the outside of the nut and bridge the further u have to bend the string to achive the desired pitch. pitch = tension. if u bend from a B to a C then u add string movement on the outside of bridge and nut u have to bend it further to go from a B to a C. result same tension.
Brad Tomlin That’s exactly right. “Tension” is how tight the string is pulled along it’s length, but how hard you have to push it sideways to make a bend is different. The longer the total string length, for a given scale length, the more sideways displacement, from your finger, is needed to change the pitch. This is where the “feel” thing comes in.
Also, Top wrapping mostly gets the force on the bridge pointing straight down rather then forward, eliminating the forward lean you can get on older ABR bridges that screw directly into the maple.
Veddy in-tear-esting
Am I the only person to just bypass the string tree on a vintage Tele (with Kluson-type tuners) and not have any problems because of it?
We use sperzels on our builds and no trees and they work great
No. They don't always need them.
Here is a youtube video that dismantles the curious beliefs of wifey stated in the comments to Dylan's video. "Stringtension , Jimi Hendrix and Guitarist magazine" Susan Gardener.
Susan Gardener proceeds through what is known as a thought experiment. She could have carried it on to an empirical trial but the reasoning is so self evident that it is not necessary. As I said earlier I have made an informal survey of 22 players and found that none of them share your intuitions.
I have made measurements many times over 35 years as instrument maker. None ever confirmed any of the nonsense you are trying to foist on us. Where are you're measurements?
Okay. Here is a description of the test rig I built to test experimentally the effect of varying nut to post length.
Take a rigid bed on which to mount the string.( In my case an 8" by 2" piece of lumber on edge)
Fix to that three heavy coach screws. One as the tailpiece , the other two at different spacings to represent the two different post positions.
Set up between the tailpiece screw and first post screw a bridge saddle and nut at the chosen scale length.
Fix a string of uniform dimensions to the tailpiece screw then over the bridge and nut to a spring balance then a turnbuckle then fix that to one of the post screws.
Tighten the turnbuckle until you get the desired pitch on the string between the bridge and nut.
Record the tension reading on the spring balance.
Now shift the turnbuckle to the other post screw. ( effectively changing the nut to post length )
Re-tighten the turn buckle until you have the same pitch as before on the bridge to nut length.
You will find that the tension reading on the spring balance will be the same.
It is also possible to test the effect of the additional length on the strings elasticity by statically deflecting the string laterally the same amount for each set-up and measuring the pitch shift .
The longer nut to post length will give slightly less pitch shift because some force is used to stretch the more elastic string rather than raise the tension / pitch.
This may be where you are getting confused. No the strat , reverse strat and jazz master do NOT have different tensions effected by the different after lengths. The elasticity may be different (slightly) between the strings but not the tension. I thought we had already agreed that if the nut is frictionless then the tension will be the same in all parts of the string. Add to that the three factors determining pitch
( T , length and mass) So if your playing length is at the right pitch the tension must be the same.
What you are experiencing must be to do with elasticity which is a different thing. And from what you are saying , your experiences are the opposite of what would occur for a longer string with more elasticity.
( isn't the jazzmaster a bit shorter ? ) How are you judging more tension?
Remember that if a string is more elastic it will need more bending to get the same pitch shift.
I had a quick look around on the forums. About 10% of people have the wrong end of the stick while 90% have a correct understanding of this.
Yes, Susan Gardener does have it correct . She is also erudite and articulate but that doesn't impact on the truth.
Someone that doesn't have it sorted and bloody well should is Will from
Will's Easy Guitar. Go to him for succor , he's in your camp ; wrong and confused.
Don't under- estimate my ability to build and conduct an accurate experiment.Remember I am a master craftsman. Also because it is a "relative" test (one situation compared to another )the slight absolute accuracy problems of a spring balance are less significant.
I'm not in this argument for any joy of winning. It is not at all a difficult problem for analysis. As I said it seems that about 90% of people can understand this correctly. I'd really like to help you sort this out but I don't know what other resources I can point you at.
I have asked three string makers for their take on it and will pass on their replies. It would be great if you could come over from the land of looney guitar mythology.
I am not able to understand your language here. Can't figure what you are trying to say. The reason I continue presenting logical reasoning is
that you are clearly confused. I'm trying to help you understand.
I have e-mailed a range of string manufacturers with the a question
about the possible effect of different string after- lengths on string tension. I wrote to D'Addario / GHS / Ernie Ball.
I'm afraid, for you,that they all replied that different after lengths can have absolutely NO effect on string tension. One of the three mentioned
that longer lengths will increase the elasticity slightly , giving a slinkier string feel. If I had an e-mail address I could send them to you or you might write to them yourself or I'll copy them into comments.
Excuse me but it is so clear that you are wrong about this.
You may be experiencing something but it is NOT caused by extra tension. It will be a whole new world for you when you come to understand. It is not a sin to be wrong but it is arrogant to be ignorant in the face of knowledge.
Duane Allman thought it worked. He top wrapped.
Joe Bonamassa, Billy Gibbons, and Jimmy Page do it so it's all the reason I need.
You use inches for scale but Kilos per meter for tension. Please be consistent.
Daniel, do your research before criticizing someone, makes you sound really dumb and arrogant.
@Kitten Katt i'm so grateful that you chose to reply to the original comment so informatively, eloquently and respectfully! A very sound explanation for the flip-floppy nature to why we choose to abide by measurement system over an other!
i think you need a course on how to explain things better to people,do you really think that anyone is going to watch this video 18 minutes long,no way try to make another 5 minutes.
Ramp Agent I think its just fine. Best video ive seen on the subject.
Ramp Agent I think its just fine. Best video ive seen on the subject.
+Ramp Agent You have an attention span problem.
+Tushar Vazirani why dont you´ll just play your guitar and stop watching senseless videos.
+Tushar Vazirani it's called ADD Ramp had attention deficit disorder.