Any note is technically the same given tension when at rest, top-wrapped or not. Strings are more compliant with top-wrapping because slightly more overall string length. More give and stretch there so it translates to a little more in the main string area, thus it feels like less 'tension' as it bends a bit easier. But you also have to bend more distance to reach the increased tension to hit the next note...as tension for every note at rest remains the same. So it's a combination of things that translates into feel. It's more distance to bend, but less felt resistance. Kind of like a difference in shock absorption, like a soft ride with more bounce compared to a harder, stiffer ride.
I have a lot of guitars. I top wrapped 2 of them. I never noticed a difference because I never imagined there would be a difference. Thought never occurred to me. It’s pretty cool that you went through the effort of analyzing that
Never heard about the bending. Minimizing the breakangle on either end puts less downward force at the nut or bridge. The less down force, the less friction and the less friction, the less it goes out of tune. Same reason people lube the ends. The other notable benefit is the E string is less likely to snap from the bridge cutting into it. I just unscrew the tail piece so it sticks up and get the same effect.
Tuning stability and string breaking are the two main reasons I topwrap. You are 100% correct, raising the stopbar does the exact same thing for tuning and string breakage. This is the same reason I use a string butler. The reason I choose to topwrap instead of raise the bridge, however, is picking comfort. Topwrapping, IMO, feels MUCH more comfortable to rest your picking hand on then through-stringing.
@@willcresson8776 Is not only the playability or if you play more confortable to play. all the tailpiece touch the wood and you have more sustain. that is the first reason of topwrap.
As always, whenever i question myself about any gimmicky things such as top wrap or not, you give me the most accurate answer. So glad i subscribed to your channel years ago.
Saw TH-cam now is in the business of determining whether the comments you make raises the correct argument. My attitude was generally that I have a top wrapped guitar that was set up better than my other p Gibson's so I don't know whether the top wrap makes the difference or not. The most guitar texts I know so it doesn't make a difference but this video at least it shows that it makes some whatever difference but I don't play with like a strange so I'm used to bending 11s with zero discomfort because the scale length is a far cry from 25.5 like a Strat which I string with tens, when you put heavy gauge strings on a strat the instrument automatically not only bends easier but sounds better when you've got it turned down a half step breathing a whole step because the strings tend to vibrate more and and the notes bloom better in any case because I wasn't talking strictly about top wrapping the entire time TH-cam and its infinite wisdom said that my argument was inappropriate. Sorry Gustavo I guess freedom of expression is no longer
Ps . It makes no real difference , except for me ,resting my palm on the saddle it helps me to know what string I’m going after. I keep my eyes closed a lot so I call it playing by brail.
Ok so fist I don’t want to scratch my tailpiece and second… I am not sure but I don’t think it could make a real difference in tension since for a given gauge and the scale you used is probably not accurate enough to get a 150 grams difference. It doesnt matter if you have to go higher to bend it since the force required to get the string of a given width and length is always gonna be the same for a certain pitch. It goes higher until you reach about the same level of stretching (and force) i believe this is due to the angle being lower at the bridge thereforenthe string stretches more passed the bridge (between tailpiece and bridge) and perhaps make’s a difference. (I do not think that the relation between string length and the force required to move it perpendicularly is linear). This is just a hypothesis and I don’t think it’s right. Also, since the string was kind of new, it perhaps got longer when you bent it the first time and placed the tape and you didnt see it when you pulled with the scale. I also think that the (more sustain) from top wrapping isn’t due to the string being longer but the fact that the string has way more contact with the tailpiece. Anyways, it was a great video and led to quite a thinking. Have a nice day and thank you for your experiment!
@@gibby7337 nice one mate. I have been playing for a living since the 1970’s, and when I do a concert/gig, I could never hear the subtle differences you describe. ( maybe a bedroom or studio player would?) What would be the point for me! My Gibsons are all strung normally. Top or bottom wrap? It would drive me crazy just thinking about it! I have enough to think about when I’m jumping about, playing guitar/ harmonica and singing! I am sure most performers would agree. I leave the amp pretty much set up the same. I use old Kramers with decked Floyds. No need to top/bottom wrap. Those Floyd things are as stable as a rock, and the strings are as bendable as a pole dancer’s backside. (😜🤪😱) Nice technical analysis though, but lost on me.
@lesbois53 haha I understand, and since it's been two years it took me some time to remember what my comment was even about but yeah I think that at this point it's really up to preferences since the difference it might make is so subtle that it really shouldn't be something to worry about! I just have one les paul that my dad bought in 1980 and passed down to me and it plays so well I don't see why I'd wanna set it up differently! Thanks for your comment and take care!
As you rightly say: when bent (or picked or whatever), the whole string moves and tenses. Not just between saddle and nut, but end to end. So two things happen here: as you note, more friction, and also a greater overall length of string to stretch, ergo more pressure required. By wrapping the string around the stopbar, you basically add .75 to 1 inch of string or so. Give or take: as much as needed to essentially eliminate the benefit of the Les Paul's shorter scale length in terms of ease of bending compared to a Strat or Tele. And by the way, the exact same thing happens on the other end, which is why you should be careful how much string you wind onto the tuning machine. The fewer the turns, the shorter the string, the easier to stretch out, the better the tuning stability, and the easier the bends. So actually for the comparison to be accurate in your experiment, the string should be would to the same number of turns on the machine head, but as a seasoned pro you probably got that right anyway. As far as I'm concerned, I put locking tuners wherever I can, there's no better way to limit excessive string length headstock side. Now from the above, there's also a conclusion to be drawn as to what a very legit reason to top wrap a Les Paul could be: players who usually play 25.5 in scale length guitars and only pick up a 24.75 in for the occasional song or two may prefer having tenser strings on the Les Paul while using the same string gauge, so that it feels more like their usual Strat or Tele. Where that really matters is when you play a lot of pre-bent notes. Because then you bend to pitch not by ear but by muscle memory, so you need to know in advance how much pressure to apply. If you train on a Strat and then you apply the same pressure on a Les Paul, your pre-bend will go sharp. Top wrapping is one way to compensate for that. But frankly, that's still a lot of hair splitting in the land of guitar nerdom. I really don't know that Strat-bound monster benders like David Gilmour or Mark Knopfler ever top wrapped their Les Pauls. We should all just get out there and play the damn thing, wrapped whichever way we like. Rock on!
Longer strings are easier to stretch, and shorter strings are harder to stretch as the amount of stretch represents a lower % of the overall length of the longer strings. Still, it would appear that you need to stretch them further anyway so there's no advantage to top-wrapping in terms of bending notes.
Thank You for exploring this. I was going to top wrap my Les Paul. You just saved a bunch of time and money for me. Plus top wrapping looks bad also, in my opinion. Great job!
I have 2 les paul std, one top-wrapped, one not. The reason I top-wrapped one is that the neck set angle is higher than the other, so the strings hit the back of the bridge before they reach the saddles, and I have to raise the tail piece so high that I'm worried it doesn't have enough threads in the base studs and may damage the guitar. That's one common reason to do it. Interesting finding about tension -nice one!
@@DylanTalksTone I top wrap mine for the sa,me reason. I realize that yes you can "raise" the tail piece BUT why doesn't Gibson do this simple check at the factory and raise it there. They do not fix this because it affects the looks of the guitar which affect sales. Who wants a tail piece where it is raised and you can see the threads? If Gibson cared about things beyond looks they would fix the head angle, the angling for the strings from the nut to the tuning keys, and this issue where the angle of the string from the tail piece to the back of the bridge is too sharp,
@@Fender5621 yes it just depends on the guitar If too severe a break angle it does help On his intro pic the studs weren't down all the way That's the best way to top wrap AGAIN it all really depends on the guitar
Probably what this means is with top wrapping the same amount of displacement across the fingerboard from the rest position of the string produces less change in pitch. That also means you can press down the strings harder/softer while holding a chord without changing the pitch of the notes as much.I guess you would call that being slinky? Then, because you need to displace the strings more to reach the tension (pitch) of a full or half bend, you need to exert more force vertically, that is simple geometry given that for the same note the tension along the string will be the same. I will try top wrapping my LP at some point just because the neck angle is large on mine, and with my choice of action the tailpiece is too high and I can see a bit of unpainted wood around the screws (below the surface of course), which I would prefer not to see. However, considering there is at least one downside, which is scratching the top of the tailpiece, I don't know if I will keep it top wrapped for long.
You need to wear a green cap when doing the test due to green and gravity both starting with the letter G, which is also what guitar starts with. That is science, pal, can't avoid it.
I top-wrapped my Les Paul once. I couldn't go two days before I had to re-string it the regular way again. I really didn't like how it felt top-wrapped. I do like to raise the tailpiece a little bit, it's subtle, but I think it plays better that way than all the way down. Interesting experiment, thanks, Dylan!
Hi Dylan. Your test is accurate and makes perfect sense. Your string length is increased by around 3/4 of an inch on a wrap, so this also increases the floating string mass, hence extended movement to achive a full note bend. You are also correct that wrapping over the bridge changes the node point to the upper - rear portion of the bridge creating a levered angle on the rear side of the bridge bolts. This does introduce stress on the Bridge Bolt base, and in extreme circumstances, causes the threaded base to lift away from the nbody. I have no clue how this trend started, I did hear one story that Frank Zappa did it to counteract sympathetic string-ring but I have never encountered that anomoly on a Lespaul in that area between the saddle & the bridge. My theory is that maybe guitarists that changed from say a Strat which has a longer scale length to a shorter scale length such as the Lespaul did this to prevent over bending! Great video!
Arthur Brown that also makes me wonder if top wrapping would make it easier to downtune a guitar since there’s more tension on the strings. It seems like if you had the right scale length, you can tune low without the need of a longer scale length per se.
@@Stretchwreckedem469 you have it back wards....if you raise the tail piece..it'll make the string softer...wraping it over the top with will achieve the samething. Down tuning would make it even softer.... Or if you had HEAVIER gauge strings..such as 11 for the High E. What dose do is....incase you have the bride saddle adjustment screws towards the back..it'll prevent the strings from hitting the screw heads..if you were LAZY....you'll just wrap it over.. instead of having to re intonnate the saddles ...which can be time consuming... I personally think it's RETARDEd FAD. Just like some people dont clip the strings on the head stock...in their mind it looks cool....becuase Schenkers dosnt clip his strings.....but it'll cuase all kinds of UN WANTED strings rattling noise.... If you own a GIBSON copies....the tail piece are mounted even further back.. which which will also makes the strings softer.
I top wrap because I like to have the stop bar all the way down on the body of the guitar for sustain. It has nothing to do with making the strings feel slinky or anything like that. Running the strings thru the stop bar results in a string angle that breaks not only on the saddles but on the back edge (stop bar side) of the bridge too. The string angle with top wrapping allows me to screw the stop bar all the way down without the strings making contact with both the saddles and the bridge's edge.
What do most of you guys think the posts on the tailpiece are for? He has already done an analysis of whether or not a string sustains longer top wrapped and screwed all the way down or not wrapped with a raised tailpiece and the difference is negligible.
@@minkwelder No, it's because guys don't know what a screw top post is for. Even with the stop bar raised and no wrapping the contact between the posts and body is quite significant and does not reduce sustain.
What about tuning stability? It seems to me that the sharper angle at the bridge, the more tendency for the string to hang up in the bridge peice slots and cause tuning issues. By decreasing the angle the string has less tension and can slide more easily across the bridge piece slot. On my main guitar - a '99 Les Paul hollowbody the tail piece studs are quite loose and wobbly when not screwed down tight to the body, therefore, top wrapping seemed like the ideal solution to get a get a better angle at bridge, so the strings not are hitting the back of the bridge AND there no issues with a wobbly tail piece. I also *subjectively* thought it felt a bit better. I'm a 50+ year pro player and have played this guitar for 20 years with the same gauge strings, so I do know how it feels.
So, by top wrapping, and because the strings now have to go over the hump in the tailpiece, you've effectively made the string longer, so it makes absolute sense that a little more length would cause you to have to bend the string more to raise the pitch a full step. Good experiment.
I top wrap my Gibson SG because when strung in the conventional manner the strings contact the back edge of the bridge putting pressure on it which will eventually bend the bridge posts forward. That is what happened to an old GoldTop of mine and I had to replace the entire bridge assembly.
The strings touch the back of the bridge because the tailpiece is set too low, DUH! Also the thicker mounting posts of a Nashville bridge will do more to prevent bridge posts from bending especially with any type of vibrato including Bigsby.
It's *completely* intuitive that the string would stretch more/farther if you effectively make it longer with a grazing break angle - that's the result I would expect. Nor should it come as a surprise in retrospect that you would have to bend harder - the "feel" will be closer to a Fender with a longer scale. Not hard to understand if you think about it. Better to get a locking bridge / tailpiece and string through the regular way IMO.
I think less pressure/longer way to bend contributes to better playing feel, even of it‘s theoretically not easier or more efficient. Regular strung guitars with the tailpiece all the way down sound a little dead to me sometimes. Raising the tailpiece (or topwrapping) usually results in a positive change.
I think the next test should be the same for 9s vs 10s. It might give fun results. For this video, I believe the distance the top wrap moved is the result of less tension on the string, meaning distance isn’t correlated to tension. So I predict that on a 9s vs 10s test, the distance you are measuring will result in the similar results in this video. But you will certainly feel that 9s are obviously easier to bend than 10s even though the distance on the 9s will be more than 10s.
to add to your point my experience of this (since watching his video) is that it is like going from 10s to 9s (or at least the feeling of it) but a whole new dimension opens up when you put a thicker gauge string (like 11s) and having it feel like a (10.5) whilst having more sustain because you can flush the tailpiece but on top the thickness of the string gives you a fatter tone - top wrapping also opens up more mids whilst the standard way of wrapping is focused more around the upper mids. this is all just a matter of preference but the sacrifice of bending a note with more power gives you other things to play with - on the other hand when you move a string slightly for micro expressions its also easier and the tone of it is thicker so its like a balancing scale
Fascinating. The reason I top wrapped was in an effort to increase tuning stability by keeping the string in more of a straight line. I want to try raising the tailpiece and see what happens.
Top wrapping is for Heavy-Handed players, like myself. I Top wrap because I feel like I bend chords (especially the D) out of shape less. Also I seem to be more accurate with my bends when Top Wrapped. The tension demo explains it for me. Also I started as an acoustic player, so maybe its a more natural break angel/tension feel for us Heavy Handed ppl. :) Thank again....you videos Always teach me so much.
Isn’t the function of the tail piece to influence the break angle which in turn effects the tension. Top wrap is equivalent to raising the bridge which in turn decreases the break angle resulting in less tension at the saddles. The string sits higher when you top wrap , you can accomplish this by raising the bridge as well.
Of course there is more tension on the string if you need to bend it further to get to pitch... But that also says that the strings indeed feel slinkier when top wrapped. So playing chords feels slinkier, while bending to pitch actually is a little harder.
This is how I see it... When we stretch strings to raise the pitch we are stretching from the ball end to where the string terminates at the tuning machine. We are stretching the bit of the string that is wrapped around the tuning machine so more wraps around the tuning machine has a similar effect as top wrapping at the tailpiece. In order to reach a specific pitch we have to increase the tension by a specific percentage of the total length of the string - which is why the string had to be pulled farther with the top wrap. Some Jazz guitars, including the Ibanez GB10, have an adjustable tailpiece which changes the total length of the strings (in the case of the GB10, its three at a time). This feature is used to adjust the string tension. I tried top wrapping once, years ago, and abandoned it for two reasons - the wrap at the ball end of the string exposed the end of the string which cut into my palm and scratched the top of the tailpiece. A 335 with a stop tailpiece feels different than a 335 with a trapeze - again, because the longer string length requires more of a bend to reach a specific pitch. Locking tuners also make a difference because there is no 'wrap' at the tuning peg.
Not quite an engineer here but I did get an A in college physics, so here's my theory. When you bend a string you're stretching it longer. Let's say to bend your G up one step you have to stretch it 5% (just picking an arbitrary number). It takes a certain amount of tension to stretch that steel by 5%, and the extra tension is what changes the pitch where the string resonates. When you top wrap the string you're making the string longer so there's more string available to stretch. So now when you bend up one step you're still increasing the tension enough to stretch the string 5%, but it's 5% of a longer string so you move it physically further to get that tension. You have to bend further to increase the tension because there's more string available to stretch. Now comes the second phenomenon. The further you bend the string the longer the distance becomes from the bridge to the fret, and that longer distance wants to make the pitch lower. So as you bend, the increased distance is trying to lower pitch while the increased tension is trying to raise pitch. We already established that you have to bend the longer (top wrapped) string further to get the same tension increase, so now you've increased the length (lowering pitch) more than you would have by bending the non top wrapped string. This means you have to go even FURTHER with your bend to an even higher tension to raise the same pitch as the non top wrapped string. Make sense?
Humbucker! makes a lot of sense. though i feel the opposite while playing. i thought about it, but i can not come up with a theory that supports my experience. i thought top wrapping makes it easier to bend. probably placebo. a very interesting test dylan has shown us here.
i found this on seymour duncan's site and i think we should take this into consideration, because it also makes sense. The idea is that with the shallower break angle, the strings are free to move more easily over the bridge when you bend. and this: The breakover angle and other factors are known to make a measurable difference in the "feel" of the strings. Lower tail makes a "tighter" feel and raising makes a "slinkier" feel. That's a fact.
Here's another thought. Do the experiment again and this time screw the tailpiece down tight. This theoretically wouldn't make the string length go slightly longer, then the pressure required to bend the string might not change at all.
@@chrisdunn2176 I'm not sure. Wouldn't bringing the tailpiece down make the string rest a little further forward on the tailpiece since the string would come from a lower point, thus making the string travel a shorter distanse to the bridge?
I knew exactly this would be the result although I didn't expect the difference would be so huge. It is very huge in the case of the reverse Strat headstock which is much, much, much more easy to bend (the plain strings I mean), because of the shorter lenght to the tuner post. The reason (in the case of the top wrap and normal strat headstock) is that you need the force to stretch the vibrating portion of the string but then you need extra force to stretch the additional inches of string that are at the other side of the scale lenght. Only imagine that your guitar has a 3m long headstock and a 3m long tailpiece, then you would need to stretch the string a lot further (even off the fretboard) to achieve maybe just a semitone bend.
@DylanTalksTone It's all about the ratio of scale vs. total string length. The longer the string the higher the string tension to get it in tune, but with the scale length being a constant this means higher string tension. And it doesn't make the guitar worse, it just makes it different. With the higher string tension when top wraping you should be able to lower the bridge for lower action without fret buzz.
Hi. Ss far as I know, the main reason for top wrapping is not to reduce effort while bendind, but rather to teduce friction at the bridge, due to wider break angle of the string and hence reduce or prevent tuning issues.
Thank you for clearing this up. I just unboxed my new Gibson Les Paul Gold top. I've been seeing tons of "fixes" for this guitar and really seem to know your shtuff!
I think this was a good test and just proves what I always suspected, that top wrapping is a lot of shit because when you bend top wrapped, it's pulling the extra string between the tailpiece and bridge as well.
Your point is demonstrated by the need for 'rocking bridges' if a tailpiece bender is used. Dylan's test may not be 100% definitive, but sure as hell it's indicative, so much so that it's worth repeating the experiment with even tighter parameters and measurements.
@@stephensaines7100 If you have the time and run a test to account for the stability of the bridge and tailpiece then that would be interesting to see. I suspect that the string angle on the bridge is by far the leading factor here so the outcome is not going to change, there will just be a more finite measurement.
I think top wrap helps strings to keep clear from touching to back end of the bridge when the tailpiece is very low or when the bridge has to be high due to angle of the neck to the body.
Like the video, but I think your conclusions are different than the ones I would make. By top wrapping, and reducing the string angle, several things happen. 1. You have less direct force on the individual bridge staddles. This implies that the string - instead of binding as hard on the bridge saddle, will slip more than on a down wrap. This overall means that you have a longer overall length of string that needs to be stretched. 2. With the longer overall length that needs to be stretched, it follows that you have to pull it further away from center to get the same tension increase that changes the pitch. 3. This then means that for standard playing it's going to feel a bit easier to pull the strings around - but the overall bend you need to make is wider, to increase the overall tension. From that I think you can make two conclusions. Yes, it's "easier" to bend strings with a top wrap - if you go by distance of bend, not pitch change. Yes, it feels slinkier - because for the same overall bend distance, there's a longer string to pull, so it's a bit easier. BUT - as you showed, you end up having to pull the string farther to get the same pitch increase, and that means more eventual sideways tension, as you also showed. QED. It's slinkier, and it also means full step and 1 1/2 step bends are harder with a top wrap because of how far you end up having to pull the string.
As a player who plays with a top wrapped sg and les paul. It's all for tone and sustainability. Not for easier playability. Cause most players who do this have a more prominent playing hand that tends to really hammer the strings furiously. Watch Billy Gibbons, Duane Allman, Joe Bonamassa. It's all about players preference. What feels comfortable to you as a player.
After strings are broke in a difference in bending is noticed. 11’s top wrapped and not too much bridge angle give me more control of the bend, less over bend. With 10’s not top wrapped more bridge angle is needed. This is my playing ability and area of choice with Dadario strings.
@@frag4007 11-50 is what Im using. 12s are not playable for me. From 3 guitars with tunomatic stop tail, I have topwrap on one of them. On the other two, I dont like it.
@@frag4007 agreed. Im always suprised, how many people needs to bash something, that is so easy to try and reverse without trying it. Ive tried it on 3 guitars, liked on one and left it there.
@@stanislavmigra im surprised how many people bash things without trying them. Like squires i like them granted im a beginner but i even tried a fender and it didn’t feel as natural. Ig some need to bash things to feel like they are better.
Great approach, as objective as possible! Very interesting. I top wrap only because (from my experience) it helps me breaking less strings over the saddles. Never actually felt differences in tone or feel!
@@stephensaines7100 hey sorry for my late answer ...yeah I know, but a raised stopbar feels quite uncomfortable (to me) when playing, so I top wrap and screw down the tailpiece. It feels comfortable and reduces break angle
There might be more force needed to bend the string up a certain amount of pitch but you also showed that to get to the same distance it takes less force. That would mean that simply fretting the strings should be marginally easier with a top wrap, which is in line with some of the claims that people have about topwrapping, clearly though the bending part did not really hold and the experiment seemed to be carried out quite well.
thanks for your video it s very well done. i have my theory which means probably nothing, that is: with tw the string is looser though it is the same tuning as non tw. with non tw the string is kind of really tight, when bending you dont have to go very far up because it is already tense. so it goes up in pitch real fast when non tw the string is loose so you need to go further up when bending . it goes up to pitch a bit slower because there was less tension right from the start please be free to comment and correct me because i know nothing from nothing
Thanx for taking the time to do this demo. One advantage of top wrapping, only for a strong handed player, would be a wider axis for adding finger vibrato to a bended note and also finding in between notes that are difficult to nail. Maybe this information would be useful to some players with strong hands.
Great demo. This has been my experience as well. I don't have big hands, so when it becomes harder to bend, it's very noticeable to me. I tried top wrapping to match the break angle with the nut and it took more effort to play. I'm going back to slamming the tailpiece down in maybe too weeks -- I want to give it sometime to see if there are any hidden benefits that I'm not noticing. 08:21 One thing I'd like to point out in your demo that actually makes your point stronger is this part: the string has to travel farther across the fingerboard to reach the same pitch. However, in this part, you are only hooking/measuring ONE string. In reality, most of the players pushes ALL the adjacent strings. So if you have travel more across, you are also bending the adjacent strings MORE, so it'd be even harder.
Good enuf for me!! I saw it with my own eyes. Cause and effect is the why of it. I'll be sticking with the not rapping. Thank you for taking the time to do this!
Hi Dylan, while I admire your approach, my experience has shown me the opposite conclusion. I tried top wrapping for deeper resonance and saw improvement EVERY time, what sold me on top wrapping was the “butter” it added to string bends. The FEEL became greatly smoother on EVERY test Les Paul and SG that I own. Some aspects of playing go beyond raw science I guess…. Lol ….Thank you for your service…. LMAO😊
Don't really go for science when talking about feel especially if they are using a cheap device Not saying that was done but going to try it for myself then make a decision I just got a new Standard and it does have quite a break angle so 5 bucks for a set of string's Nothing against anyone's research just want to see for myself All good
Hey Dylan ... I appreciate the videos man ... just an FYI ... I heard that top wrap increases sustain. I purchased a Gibson smoke house a few years back and was disappointed that it just didn't play as well as expected for a 2000$ guitar. I noticed that the tail piece was as high as it would go and that the bridge would not go any lower. I also noticed a very sharp break angle and some of the strings were even touching the back side of the bridge. It was ... as I am aware of now ... just a good example of the poor quality issues Gibson had gone through at that time. That's when I finally decided that if I want my guitars to sound and play the way I want then I would have to learn how to set them up myself. since I couldn't make the adjustments to reduce the break angle by adjusting the bridge or tail piece I decided to over wrap. I timed the sustain before making the change and again after over wrapping. It made a substantial difference in sustain. I didn't notice any difference in playability other than that although I am sure it does make a bit of difference. More so now that I have seen your video. Thank you.
The reason it takes 150 g more to bend the string further is because the further you’ve been the string the pressure it takes to bend it further goes up exponentially more, especially at the end of the bending. I’ve been a tool maker for 40 years and worked in engineering as a project manager.
I've top wrapped my TOM equipped guitar in the past, and now I've gone back to the regular way of loading the strings. And I gave top wrapping a fair shot - I played a lot of shows for many months with that method. It didn't have so much of a benefit. Just recently, I raised the height of my tailpiece and that's what made my guitar play a lot easier, almost too easy. I might have to reduce that height to introduce a little more tension because my strings (11-49) are tuned down to Eb, and because my hands are used to a certain amount of tension to bend strings.
@@macauley70 Didn't experience any increase in sustain with the top wrap, even with the tailpiece flush to the body. I also didn't experience any loss of sustain when I raised the height of the tailpiece. I keep the tailpiece flush to the body with 11s tuned half down. I raise the tailpiece if I have to play a gig on standard tuning, to compensate for the tighter tuning.
@@macauley70 it takes about 30 minutes to an hour for my guitar to get used to the new tension. No problem with tuning stability, which is honestly more about a well lubricated nut and a good setup.
The reason is because of the low break angle and extra string length behind the saddle, the string slips through the saddle notch and you are in effect bending a longer string. So you have to bend farther and harder. The best thing you can do for feel is raise up the tailpiece to where the bridge break angle is about equal to the nut break angle. The Bottomed-Out-Tailpiece-Gives-More-Sustain crowd will mercilessly excoriate me, but that too has been disproven.
That sounds reasonable. Major part of topwrappers lower the stop bar all the way down, and thus create the same string angle. In addition, when the string starts slip through the saddle notch, this not only creates effect of bending a longer string, but also causes friction at the contact point of saddle notch with string. This can be checked using a roller tune-o-matic bridge.
I overwrap my SG was for comfort rather then tone not that I noticed any difference in tone or bending although bendy was more noticeable after a guitar tech did a full setup for me. Oh the comfort is for my picking hand 🖐
Overall string length is the reason for more stretch needed. The "friction point" as mentioned on top of the tail piece isn't a stop. Also, a fretted string (not demo'ed) might not need an unreasonable amount of travel distance to reach the desired pitch. Scientifically? Well... it seems you need to stretch the string further to achieve the desired pitch. So, you are negating the benefit of a loose string by having to stretch the string more. What might be a benefit? Maybe, the "sweet spot" harmonic grows a bit wider with a longer string?
YOU ANSWER RIGHT 👌 Thank you 💙 I've being search ling time for the right thing. ....and THIS particular way to find it. The next step is to know if (with same strings) "Slim Taper" vs "Rounded" have exactly the same tension 🙏😉 That's my principal curiosity now...
It's not the break angle over the bridge as much as the longer string there is to be streteched when top wrapping. Since the whole string, even before the bridge and after the nut, stretches when bending, it is "easier" to bend with top wrapping. But, it needs to be bend further to reach the same pitch compared to without top wrapping.
Folks are just silly. Consider a Floyd rose with no tag string behind the saddle. Now take a guitar with a harp tailpiece and 4 or 5 inches of tag. Play a note bend a minor third. They will require the exact tension to reach that note. It isnt a matter of how far but how many kg.of pressure. Folks did that over the top thang in the past because cruddy Gibson bridges would begin to bend down in the center. Top wrapping eased that downward pressure that bent that cruddy bridge.
My theory about top wrapping is that, back in the day, someone who was familiar with the Junior/Special/'54 Goldtop style wrap bridge got an upgrade and wasn't sure how to string it. Wrapped it out of habit. Other people saw this and speculated, "why is it wrapped like a Junior? Does it provide more sustain? Easier bends?" All the while, it was just someone confusing the new abr1 & tailpiece with the old wrap bridge
Interesting! If it is a purely string length thing I would expect the same effect for a top loaded versus string-through body telecaster. Should be easy to verify using a wilkinson ashtray bridge.
I top wrap my Les Paul to prevent the string angle from causing the string to contact the side of the bridge before it contacts the saddle...I keep the tailpiece screwed down tight to the body for maximum sustain/reverberation through the body...raising the tailpiece reduces that contact, and creates other issues...I never felt it made the guitar easier to bend strings...it was a performance thing for me...
Thanks for doing this test the results are interesting and a little surprising. I did top wrap my LP at one time but couldn't honestly say it felt easier to bend. So I went back to the normal bridge arrangement. One thing for sure though if you are looking for really obvious decrease in string tension that really does make string bending more comfortable then tune down. Even a semitone makes a noticeable difference, I settled on a tone which feels really comfortable to my rather thin fingers. Combine that with light strings for example as Tony Iommi does and it will make a big difference.
Interesting. It makes sense that you'd have to move the string further when top-wrapping as there's more string to stretch, which also accounts for the increased effort. The perceived reduction in effort required that many people report is probably because a longer 'throw' kind of spreads out the effort, making it 'feel' slinkier. I do a lot of 'snappy' bends when I'm soloing - straight up to a note and back down again, often on several strings consecutively in a decending run - sounds different to sliding up a couple of frets and a short throw is definitely going to be snappier than a long throw would be. I was thinking about trying top-wrapping on my Les Pauls but, since it would mess up that fundamental part of my playing style, meh, I'll pass.
I thought that Top Wrapping was to reduce the break angle at the bridge and allow you to tighten the stop-bar screws a bit more. I like the feel of the top-wrapped strings under my right palm, but I don't feel any difference when I bend.
Dylan - You commented that you don't know the reason why it takes more pull to reach the same pitch, yet you correctly explained the reason why it does by saying, "...from ball end all the way to the tuner, the whole string moves..." That's precisely why it requires more pull to reach the same pitch when bending: *more friction*. I'd like to suggest an alternate test, if I may. Instead of top-wrapping the stop bar, raise it up via the posts, to match the break angle of a top-wrapped stop bar, yet with the strings pulling straight through, and re-test using the same methods. *In theory* this should reduce the force needed while negating any added friction, but the test results would ultimately tell the tale.
@@DylanTalksTone Interesting. I would've expected the force to be reduced with the stop bar simply raised vs wrapped. Thanks for the reply and keep rockin!
Bridge to nut is a constant so the distance of the bend to go up one step should also be constant. Why not? Because the strings can slide across the bridge saddles (as well as the nut slots) essentially detuning the string. The more string that crosses the further the bend required to raise the pitch. I think the top wrap lets more string cross the bridge saddle necessitating the bigger bend. The sharper angle of the non top wrap gives more resistance at the bridge saddle and less string crosses so a smaller bend is required to raise the pitch by a step.
I think you were assuming the two sets of strings - those you had on not top wrapped and those you had when top wrapped - would be identical and would perform in the same way. There is a manufacturing tolerance on the alloy, wire diameter and plating thickness. So even if the two sets of strings were the same brand and gauge I suspect that what you measured was the variation in string performance. you are right about adding stress to the string end twist when top wrapping. The Gibson stop bar width is almost exactly the length of the twist on most strings. Putting a right angle bend in the string right at the top of the twist can result in the string breaking. This is at least one reason why most PRS stop bar wrap over bridges are quite a bit wider.
I'm surprised, I would have thought the longer the string from start to stop, the easier it would bend. And like you said, 150 grams can not be error. Very interesting video. One of my customers over wraps his les paul for bending. Maybe it's the further bend that makes it feel easier.
I'm not a top-wrapper, and hadn't heard of the "ease of bending" theory. I've always heard that the additional string to surface contact on the tailpiece served to increase sustain! (probably horse hockey)
That may be true if it's an actual 'wrap-around bridge' but much less likely a tailpiece. The longitudinal tensions and sustain would ostensibly be captured with a wrap-around bridge, and also re-introduced to the other strings. That likelihood would be much less on a tailpiece, as that energy would be dissipated in the bridge.
@@stephensaines7100 Of all of my guitars, the only one with a wrap around bridge is a little Melody Maker! Fun little thing, but certainly not a tone monster! I remember Bonamassa top wrapping some years back... Not sure if he still does.
Didn't you make another video that instead of top wrapping to change the break angle, you could just adjust the tailpiece height? That would be a more 1-1 comparison on just the break angle, remove the friction variable. Also, if it requires more distance for the same bend, then one could assume that maybe it's easier to push the string onto the fret.
makes sense! the old-timey hollow body electric set up where the tail piece is like a mile away from the bridge makes the strings super hard to bend right? kind of crazy that top wrapping makes a 1/4 pound difference in this test though.
Ive kept a couple of my guitars top wrapped for a long time. Recently I watched a video. The video was a rig-rundown on slashs' gear. His tech was going over his guitar and how it is set up. I right away noticed his tail piece was set high, as did the interviewer. The guy interviewing the tech asked him specifically about why the bridge was set so high. His answer was basically for all the same reasons a person generally top wraps. So, the next time I changed the strings on one of my top wrapped guitars I raised the tail piece and didnt top wrap the strings. Does it make a difference? Hard too say. I say yes. But, I dont know if its in my head or not. I seem too notice a difference between top wrapped and raised tail piece. Raised tail piece neing the better. Ive only only had this set up for a couple months. I seem to notice a bigger difference going from a strat to the raised tail piece than I do going from strat to top wrapped.
Hey Bryan. I have the same experience. I tryed fooling around with the hight of the tail piece , and found that getting about the same tension in the tail piece end, as in the nut end of the string, made the guitar feel more relaxed rather than feeling like it was tuned too high and stressed in tension. ( I hope it makes sense .. )
I have found the same thing! I recently purchased a few used Les Paul's and every darn one of them the previous owners had run the tail piece all the way down. First of all, I hate that because I KNOW it's not supposed to be all the way down, secondly it makes it harder to clean the space between the tail piece and bridge. Third, the angle the strings are in when it's run all the way down just seems to be to steep and put too much tension on the strings. I have noticed that it seems the ones with the tail piece all the way down also break strings easier.
@KC Exactly ! And the fact that the tune-O-matic bridge is still in use AT ALL to day is one of things that makes you question if the Earth really is a spinning globe .. ?
I do it, because I like the tailpiece down on the deck, just like the original Les Paul were before the adjustable bridges and saddles came into play. It sounds good to me and feels okay. I use 8 - 8.5 gauge strings.
The reason you have to bend it further is because by top wrapping going around the bridge, you have more string and an entire length from bridge to tuner which requires more bending or further bending of the string to achieve the same tone you have more string to tighten during the band
the reason why is angular tension over distance. while the tension is the same at a point, you aren't bending at where the note is being picked up. and like a fulcrum point, the angle required to get the right vibration is shifted the longer the distance, it would only be 1 or 2 degree's of a difference. you could exaggerate it with 4 feet vs 1 foot. you don't need to travel as far on the shorter string.
One thing I don't see you doing is dropping the stoptail to the deck after you top wrap. Dropping the stoptail again increases the angle and increases sustain (stoptail bottomed out). I too scratch build and have been doing this for 40 years +
Because the string slides in the bridge, so u gotta bend further, but tension = pitch period. may feel like it's bending easier but you gotta go further to achieve same tension. I been screamin about this for years. tension has to be the same to get same pitch.
Great test. I speculate that this might be the case because top wrapping increases the overall string length between the anchor points. On a bend your bending a longer string than a through tailpiece setup - since the strings must stretch over the tailpiece. That may account for more bend to reach the same pitch. If that's true I expect the results would be more pronounced on a guitar with a trapeze or Bigsby tailpiece, which increased overall string length even more.
I just bought a 1978 Gibson The Paul. My guess is that the previous owner used it for slide playing. The bridge was so high it made it hard to play cords and single notes. Wouldn't be anywhere near in tune. And to compensate for the high bridge the pickup's were way high. And the tail piece was all the way down. Now I do play slide but I am a lead guitarist. I have done all the adjustments. It plays great now. I was watching this video and felt I should let you know that your video's have been helpful. And if you look at my channel picture you will see my truck in front of Mt Shasta at the Weed Airport. I live about 40 miles north of there. Peace and happiness brother
I remember Zakk Wylde saying the same thing about top wrapping. I found the same thing with it. Since Les Paul's have the shorter scale length I feel like you can get decent tension with lighter strings so that's why I like it.
Duane Allman did it so good enough for me lol and it might be purely a feel thing I don't always go for the scientific angle when it comes to art If it feels easier it is easier Lot if people do it so must be a reason
I've been experimenting with a cheap LP....spent a month setting it up completely...gluing in frets, leveling, replaced bridge, pickups, nut, etc..... It would slightly go out of tune over time. All strings go out relatively the same. I am strung normally....not top wrapped. I push forward on the tailpiece on the bass side and it goes slightly flat. Not much...maybe 5 cents. I'm starting to think that having the tailpiece set up high on the studs may effect how the guitar stays in tune. It's like a big tree in the wind. As the stress of playing the guitar changes it moves the tail piece studs slightly. I'm going to top wrap and take my tail piece all the way down. Can't take the tailpiece all the way down with a normal set up.....strings hit back of bridge. I think having the tail piece all the way down may be more stable due to metal on metal of the stud to insert. The higher the stud and tailpiece the more it can pull forward over time.
David Kennedy You're very probably right with the pull on (too) high tailpieces👍 Why its a bad thing, if the strings touch the back of the bridge? Kindly asking. Can't imagine why....(have on my two the tailpiece max down, sturdy tight on the body, the b and A slightly touching the back of the bridge)
@@lone-wolf-1 I set the guitar up for top wrap. It's more then just changing the strings. It had to be set up again. It changed the tension because I had to adjust the truss rod a bit. You're shortening the string in a way when it contacts the bridge... Mine plays like butter with the top wrap and stays in tune better with the tailpiece all the way down. Some people don't have enough tension with a top wrap.....mine is fine. I've felt the tension both ways. I know I'm right about the high studs. I could push the tailpiece and watch the string go out of tune. It may effect the uniform shape of the hole when it's high. I'm tempted to glue the insert into the body to make it even better....the insert where the post screws in. Most aren't glued in. It stays in tune the way it is now.
David Kennedy Thanks for answering, now I understand. Yeah, glueing the inserts is a good thing. Just a problem, if at some point you want to replace them... I think the play of the posts in the inserts might affect allso the tuning stability. But have no solution for that, besides replacing with high quality parts
@@lone-wolf-1 I bought some cheap replacements for a LP that had 4mm instead of the chinese 6mm posts for top of bridge posts. They were tight....the 6mm were not. Depends on how they make them. Replacements were about 3.00...by the way both set of post's were 8mm on the bottom.....when I measure them one was a little bigger. The chinese do not worry about tight tolerance's.
David Kennedy On my LP knockoff Harley Benton made in China, the posts have a tiny bit of play... thought about putting washers and screwing them tight on the inserts... but since I have no tuning instability, I'll do it maybe someday later. I do not care if the striglenght is "shortened" by touching the back of the bridge. Maybe it even helps stabilizing the bridge by slightly pushing it forward...
They may say it’s less tension because they don’t know about the pitch meeting up at a higher bend?? Also if one where to bend it at the same distance, it may be easier but lower pitch.
I have a Fender Traveler. The tuners are in the middle of the body and all the strings wrap a big roller at the bottom. Even with low action it is a pig. I think it is because of the overall stretch from the string on the south side of the bridge. Think about it this way, the longer the overall length of the string is the tighter you have to make the string to get pitch. I think the best reason is the wrap over makes the strings a tad longer and it is apparent enough to add a touch of pressure to stretch notes....the string is actually stretched a little tighter because of the overall length of the string....or...your guess is as good as mine....hehe
Okidoki, 'my two cents'. When you bend a string, you are stretching it from anchor point to anchor point. With top wrapped strings, the distance between anchor points is slightly longer. Whether it's enough to make that difference, I dunno, but that distance is longer.
Hey, Dylan, thanks for doing this test. I only recently heard of top-wrapping and it didn't seem right cuz, well, that's not how the Tune-O-Matic folks made it to work--LOL! Now I have a real question. What is the effect if the Tune-O-Matic tailpiece is mounted further down on the guitar? It seems like it would reduce tension, at the cost of allowing more of that extra string length to vibrate sympathetically; and that can either be used (a la Sonic Youth--hee hee) or muted with something, either of which wouldn't bother me personally. Anyway, what do you think?
moving the tailpiece (like on a floating tune 0 matic on jazz guitar and rockabilly will screw up the intonation (they are usually alling with the F hole so you get a general idea to where it is at) moving it while still have the guitar properly intonated would mean to have also to fiddle with sting gauge and scale length to have it intonated properly
There's late 50's catalogue photos of top wrapped Les Pauls. The same catalogue also shows the stop bar being used correctly, so who knows what the intention was !
I really like how you controlled the experiment and used some comon items to use actual measured results.... with that said its not just break angle they also reference the string being technical a little longer helps with the bending.... That is what "they say" like the J. Page double need with the tail peices set way back on the guitar... again just the other thing "they say"
Interesting video thanks for posting 👍I top wrap my guitars that don’t have anchor bushings so the bridge posts don’t loosen and bend from too much downward tension over time, this also allows me to clamp the stop tailpiece down closer on the body. Some people coming from longer scale length guitars like the added tension and it rings a little differently with the added string length.
What I notice from play Les Paul guitar and even Explorer! I stop toprap those because I did brake more strings as I did... And I fix the issue I hade the string hangup on the EBR1 so I put washers on the bolt to my tailpice and tight it to the body to achieve more and longer sustain! And it did work awesome ! Sesns 30 your back I no longer plays Gibson but that my help people forward on... Best regards from Sweden 🇸🇪
Any note is technically the same given tension when at rest, top-wrapped or not. Strings are more compliant with top-wrapping because slightly more overall string length. More give and stretch there so it translates to a little more in the main string area, thus it feels like less 'tension' as it bends a bit easier. But you also have to bend more distance to reach the increased tension to hit the next note...as tension for every note at rest remains the same. So it's a combination of things that translates into feel. It's more distance to bend, but less felt resistance. Kind of like a difference in shock absorption, like a soft ride with more bounce compared to a harder, stiffer ride.
I have a lot of guitars. I top wrapped 2 of them. I never noticed a difference because I never imagined there would be a difference. Thought never occurred to me. It’s pretty cool that you went through the effort of analyzing that
Never heard about the bending. Minimizing the breakangle on either end puts less downward force at the nut or bridge. The less down force, the less friction and the less friction, the less it goes out of tune. Same reason people lube the ends.
The other notable benefit is the E string is less likely to snap from the bridge cutting into it.
I just unscrew the tail piece so it sticks up and get the same effect.
Tuning stability and string breaking are the two main reasons I topwrap. You are 100% correct, raising the stopbar does the exact same thing for tuning and string breakage. This is the same reason I use a string butler. The reason I choose to topwrap instead of raise the bridge, however, is picking comfort. Topwrapping, IMO, feels MUCH more comfortable to rest your picking hand on then through-stringing.
@@willcresson8776 Is not only the playability or if you play more confortable to play. all the tailpiece touch the wood and you have more sustain. that is the first reason of topwrap.
@@macauley70 no it doesn't
Why not?@@adamwilcox6405
@@macauley70 That's been proven wrong many times with technical equipment measuring string vibration and sound generation.
As always, whenever i question myself about any gimmicky things such as top wrap or not, you give me the most accurate answer. So glad i subscribed to your channel years ago.
Saw TH-cam now is in the business of determining whether the comments you make raises the correct argument. My attitude was generally that I have a top wrapped guitar that was set up better than my other p Gibson's so I don't know whether the top wrap makes the difference or not. The most guitar texts I know so it doesn't make a difference but this video at least it shows that it makes some whatever difference but I don't play with like a strange so I'm used to bending 11s with zero discomfort because the scale length is a far cry from 25.5 like a Strat which I string with tens, when you put heavy gauge strings on a strat the instrument automatically not only bends easier but sounds better when you've got it turned down a half step breathing a whole step because the strings tend to vibrate more and and the notes bloom better in any case because I wasn't talking strictly about top wrapping the entire time TH-cam and its infinite wisdom said that my argument was inappropriate. Sorry Gustavo I guess freedom of expression is no longer
Ps . It makes no real difference , except for me ,resting my palm on the saddle it helps me to know what string I’m going after.
I keep my eyes closed a lot so I call it playing by brail.
Yeah good idea...lol I use my pinky instead of palm when soloing Palm when chording
Ok so fist I don’t want to scratch my tailpiece and second… I am not sure but I don’t think it could make a real difference in tension since for a given gauge and the scale you used is probably not accurate enough to get a 150 grams difference. It doesnt matter if you have to go higher to bend it since the force required to get the string of a given width and length is always gonna be the same for a certain pitch. It goes higher until you reach about the same level of stretching (and force) i believe this is due to the angle being lower at the bridge thereforenthe string stretches more passed the bridge (between tailpiece and bridge) and perhaps make’s a difference. (I do not think that the relation between string length and the force required to move it perpendicularly is linear). This is just a hypothesis and I don’t think it’s right. Also, since the string was kind of new, it perhaps got longer when you bent it the first time and placed the tape and you didnt see it when you pulled with the scale. I also think that the (more sustain) from top wrapping isn’t due to the string being longer but the fact that the string has way more contact with the tailpiece. Anyways, it was a great video and led to quite a thinking. Have a nice day and thank you for your experiment!
@@gibby7337 nice one mate. I have been playing for a living since the 1970’s, and when I do a concert/gig, I could never hear the subtle differences you describe. ( maybe a bedroom or studio player would?) What would be the point for me! My Gibsons are all strung normally. Top or bottom wrap? It would drive me crazy just thinking about it! I have enough to think about when I’m jumping about, playing guitar/ harmonica and singing! I am sure most performers would agree. I leave the amp pretty much set up the same. I use old Kramers with decked Floyds. No need to top/bottom wrap. Those Floyd things are as stable as a rock, and the strings are as bendable as a pole dancer’s backside. (😜🤪😱) Nice technical analysis though, but lost on me.
@lesbois53 haha I understand, and since it's been two years it took me some time to remember what my comment was even about but yeah I think that at this point it's really up to preferences since the difference it might make is so subtle that it really shouldn't be something to worry about! I just have one les paul that my dad bought in 1980 and passed down to me and it plays so well I don't see why I'd wanna set it up differently! Thanks for your comment and take care!
@ you too bud. Greetings from sunny Portugal! Rock on. 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
As you rightly say: when bent (or picked or whatever), the whole string moves and tenses. Not just between saddle and nut, but end to end. So two things happen here: as you note, more friction, and also a greater overall length of string to stretch, ergo more pressure required. By wrapping the string around the stopbar, you basically add .75 to 1 inch of string or so. Give or take: as much as needed to essentially eliminate the benefit of the Les Paul's shorter scale length in terms of ease of bending compared to a Strat or Tele. And by the way, the exact same thing happens on the other end, which is why you should be careful how much string you wind onto the tuning machine. The fewer the turns, the shorter the string, the easier to stretch out, the better the tuning stability, and the easier the bends. So actually for the comparison to be accurate in your experiment, the string should be would to the same number of turns on the machine head, but as a seasoned pro you probably got that right anyway. As far as I'm concerned, I put locking tuners wherever I can, there's no better way to limit excessive string length headstock side.
Now from the above, there's also a conclusion to be drawn as to what a very legit reason to top wrap a Les Paul could be: players who usually play 25.5 in scale length guitars and only pick up a 24.75 in for the occasional song or two may prefer having tenser strings on the Les Paul while using the same string gauge, so that it feels more like their usual Strat or Tele. Where that really matters is when you play a lot of pre-bent notes. Because then you bend to pitch not by ear but by muscle memory, so you need to know in advance how much pressure to apply. If you train on a Strat and then you apply the same pressure on a Les Paul, your pre-bend will go sharp. Top wrapping is one way to compensate for that.
But frankly, that's still a lot of hair splitting in the land of guitar nerdom. I really don't know that Strat-bound monster benders like David Gilmour or Mark Knopfler ever top wrapped their Les Pauls. We should all just get out there and play the damn thing, wrapped whichever way we like. Rock on!
Splendidly put Sir
Longer strings are easier to stretch, and shorter strings are harder to stretch as the amount of stretch represents a lower % of the overall length of the longer strings. Still, it would appear that you need to stretch them further anyway so there's no advantage to top-wrapping in terms of bending notes.
Thank You for exploring this. I was going to top wrap my Les Paul. You just saved a bunch of time and money for me. Plus top wrapping looks bad also, in my opinion. Great job!
I have 2 les paul std, one top-wrapped, one not. The reason I top-wrapped one is that the neck set angle is higher than the other, so the strings hit the back of the bridge before they reach the saddles, and I have to raise the tail piece so high that I'm worried it doesn't have enough threads in the base studs and may damage the guitar. That's one common reason to do it. Interesting finding about tension -nice one!
there is plenty of thread. People don't know this, but the tail piece was designed to be raised
@@DylanTalksTone I top wrap mine for the sa,me reason. I realize that yes you can "raise" the tail piece BUT why doesn't Gibson do this simple check at the factory and raise it there. They do not fix this because it affects the looks of the guitar which affect sales. Who wants a tail piece where it is raised and you can see the threads? If Gibson cared about things beyond looks they would fix the head angle, the angling for the strings from the nut to the tuning keys, and this issue where the angle of the string from the tail piece to the back of the bridge is too sharp,
@@Fender5621 yes it just depends on the guitar If too severe a break angle it does help On his intro pic the studs weren't down all the way That's the best way to top wrap AGAIN it all really depends on the guitar
Probably what this means is with top wrapping the same amount of displacement across the fingerboard from the rest position of the string produces less change in pitch. That also means you can press down the strings harder/softer while holding a chord without changing the pitch of the notes as much.I guess you would call that being slinky?
Then, because you need to displace the strings more to reach the tension (pitch) of a full or half bend, you need to exert more force vertically, that is simple geometry given that for the same note the tension along the string will be the same.
I will try top wrapping my LP at some point just because the neck angle is large on mine, and with my choice of action the tailpiece is too high and I can see a bit of unpainted wood around the screws (below the surface of course), which I would prefer not to see. However, considering there is at least one downside, which is scratching the top of the tailpiece, I don't know if I will keep it top wrapped for long.
You need to wear a green cap when doing the test due to green and gravity both starting with the letter G, which is also what guitar starts with. That is science, pal, can't avoid it.
also weed is naturally green
@@darkmotherboard272 that’s very true.
'Stringyfied' not 'Bendified'
I top-wrapped my Les Paul once. I couldn't go two days before I had to re-string it the regular way again. I really didn't like how it felt top-wrapped. I do like to raise the tailpiece a little bit, it's subtle, but I think it plays better that way than all the way down. Interesting experiment, thanks, Dylan!
Hi Dylan. Your test is accurate and makes perfect sense. Your string length is increased by around 3/4 of an inch on a wrap, so this also increases the floating string mass, hence extended movement to achive a full note bend. You are also correct that wrapping over the bridge changes the node point to the upper - rear portion of the bridge creating a levered angle on the rear side of the bridge bolts. This does introduce stress on the Bridge Bolt base, and in extreme circumstances, causes the threaded base to lift away from the nbody. I have no clue how this trend started, I did hear one story that Frank Zappa did it to counteract sympathetic string-ring but I have never encountered that anomoly on a Lespaul in that area between the saddle & the bridge. My theory is that maybe guitarists that changed from say a Strat which has a longer scale length to a shorter scale length such as the Lespaul did this to prevent over bending! Great video!
@@oneeyemonster3262 Man I got to much intergrity to insult you back. Good luck with that dude!
Arthur Brown that also makes me wonder if top wrapping would make it easier to downtune a guitar since there’s more tension on the strings. It seems like if you had the right scale length, you can tune low without the need of a longer scale length per se.
@@Stretchwreckedem469 you have it back wards....if you raise the tail piece..it'll
make the string softer...wraping it over the top with will achieve the
samething. Down tuning would make it even softer....
Or if you had HEAVIER gauge strings..such as 11 for the High E.
What dose do is....incase you have the bride saddle
adjustment screws towards the back..it'll prevent the strings from
hitting the screw heads..if you were LAZY....you'll just wrap it over..
instead of having to re intonnate the saddles ...which can be time consuming...
I personally think it's RETARDEd FAD. Just like some people dont clip
the strings on the head stock...in their mind it looks cool....becuase
Schenkers dosnt clip his strings.....but it'll cuase all kinds of
UN WANTED strings rattling noise....
If you own a GIBSON copies....the tail piece are mounted even further back.. which which will also makes the strings softer.
I top wrap because I like to have the stop bar all the way down on the body of the guitar for sustain. It has nothing to do with making the strings feel slinky or anything like that. Running the strings thru the stop bar results in a string angle that breaks not only on the saddles but on the back edge (stop bar side) of the bridge too. The string angle with top wrapping allows me to screw the stop bar all the way down without the strings making contact with both the saddles and the bridge's edge.
I always thought that getting the stop bar down for maximum vibration transfer to the body was the main reason for doing the top wrap.
You are right. I like a bit of fight back when I bend a string. The stop bar is always right down on my gibbos.
Dylan. Far too technical for me. Just string the damn thing and play! Top wrap or not wrap? Who cares! No parole from rock and roll!♥️♥️♥️🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸😂
What do most of you guys think the posts on the tailpiece are for? He has already done an analysis of whether or not a string sustains longer top wrapped and screwed all the way down or not wrapped with a raised tailpiece and the difference is negligible.
@@minkwelder No, it's because guys don't know what a screw top post is for. Even with the stop bar raised and no wrapping the contact between the posts and body is quite significant and does not reduce sustain.
What about tuning stability? It seems to me that the sharper angle at the bridge, the more tendency for the string to hang up in the bridge peice slots and cause tuning issues. By decreasing the angle the string has less tension and can slide more easily across the bridge piece slot. On my main guitar - a '99 Les Paul hollowbody the tail piece studs are quite loose and wobbly when not screwed down tight to the body, therefore, top wrapping seemed like the ideal solution to get a get a better angle at bridge, so the strings not are hitting the back of the bridge AND there no issues with a wobbly tail piece. I also *subjectively* thought it felt a bit better. I'm a 50+ year pro player and have played this guitar for 20 years with the same gauge strings, so I do know how it feels.
just use some nutt juice.
So, by top wrapping, and because the strings now have to go over the hump in the tailpiece, you've effectively made the string longer, so it makes absolute sense that a little more length would cause you to have to bend the string more to raise the pitch a full step. Good experiment.
Exactly, effectively the scale length is longer
No, the scale length is measured between the saddles/bridge and the nut.
I top wrap my Gibson SG because when strung in the conventional manner the strings contact the back edge of the bridge putting pressure on it which will eventually bend the bridge posts forward. That is what happened to an old GoldTop of mine and I had to replace the entire bridge assembly.
The strings touch the back of the bridge because the tailpiece is set too low, DUH! Also the thicker mounting posts of a Nashville bridge will do more to prevent bridge posts from bending especially with any type of vibrato including Bigsby.
Thanks for finally answering my questions about top wrapping my Les Paul. I'm keeping it the original way. I like your shirt.
It's *completely* intuitive that the string would stretch more/farther if you effectively make it longer with a grazing break angle - that's the result I would expect. Nor should it come as a surprise in retrospect that you would have to bend harder - the "feel" will be closer to a Fender with a longer scale. Not hard to understand if you think about it. Better to get a locking bridge / tailpiece and string through the regular way IMO.
I think less pressure/longer way to bend contributes to better playing feel, even of it‘s theoretically not easier or more efficient.
Regular strung guitars with the tailpiece all the way down sound a little dead to me sometimes. Raising the tailpiece (or topwrapping) usually results in a positive change.
I think the next test should be the same for 9s vs 10s. It might give fun results. For this video, I believe the distance the top wrap moved is the result of less tension on the string, meaning distance isn’t correlated to tension. So I predict that on a 9s vs 10s test, the distance you are measuring will result in the similar results in this video. But you will certainly feel that 9s are obviously easier to bend than 10s even though the distance on the 9s will be more than 10s.
So u mean if i put 9s normally would still be softer feel than top wrapped 10s? becoue this si my problem as a new LP owner.
to add to your point my experience of this (since watching his video) is that it is like going from 10s to 9s (or at least the feeling of it) but a whole new dimension opens up when you put a thicker gauge string (like 11s) and having it feel like a (10.5) whilst having more sustain because you can flush the tailpiece but on top the thickness of the string gives you a fatter tone - top wrapping also opens up more mids whilst the standard way of wrapping is focused more around the upper mids. this is all just a matter of preference but the sacrifice of bending a note with more power gives you other things to play with - on the other hand when you move a string slightly for micro expressions its also easier and the tone of it is thicker so its like a balancing scale
Fascinating. The reason I top wrapped was in an effort to increase tuning stability by keeping the string in more of a straight line. I want to try raising the tailpiece and see what happens.
Top wrapping is for Heavy-Handed players, like myself. I Top wrap because I feel like I bend chords (especially the D) out of shape less. Also I seem to be more accurate with my bends when Top Wrapped. The tension demo explains it for me. Also I started as an acoustic player, so maybe its a more natural break angel/tension feel for us Heavy Handed ppl. :)
Thank again....you videos Always teach me so much.
Isn’t the function of the tail piece to influence the break angle which in turn effects the tension. Top wrap is equivalent to raising the bridge which in turn decreases the break angle resulting in less tension at the saddles. The string sits higher when you top wrap , you can accomplish this by raising the bridge as well.
Of course there is more tension on the string if you need to bend it further to get to pitch... But that also says that the strings indeed feel slinkier when top wrapped. So playing chords feels slinkier, while bending to pitch actually is a little harder.
This is how I see it... When we stretch strings to raise the pitch we are stretching from the ball end to where the string terminates at the tuning machine. We are stretching the bit of the string that is wrapped around the tuning machine so more wraps around the tuning machine has a similar effect as top wrapping at the tailpiece. In order to reach a specific pitch we have to increase the tension by a specific percentage of the total length of the string - which is why the string had to be pulled farther with the top wrap. Some Jazz guitars, including the Ibanez GB10, have an adjustable tailpiece which changes the total length of the strings (in the case of the GB10, its three at a time). This feature is used to adjust the string tension. I tried top wrapping once, years ago, and abandoned it for two reasons - the wrap at the ball end of the string exposed the end of the string which cut into my palm and scratched the top of the tailpiece. A 335 with a stop tailpiece feels different than a 335 with a trapeze - again, because the longer string length requires more of a bend to reach a specific pitch. Locking tuners also make a difference because there is no 'wrap' at the tuning peg.
Not quite an engineer here but I did get an A in college physics, so here's my theory. When you bend a string you're stretching it longer. Let's say to bend your G up one step you have to stretch it 5% (just picking an arbitrary number). It takes a certain amount of tension to stretch that steel by 5%, and the extra tension is what changes the pitch where the string resonates. When you top wrap the string you're making the string longer so there's more string available to stretch. So now when you bend up one step you're still increasing the tension enough to stretch the string 5%, but it's 5% of a longer string so you move it physically further to get that tension. You have to bend further to increase the tension because there's more string available to stretch.
Now comes the second phenomenon. The further you bend the string the longer the distance becomes from the bridge to the fret, and that longer distance wants to make the pitch lower. So as you bend, the increased distance is trying to lower pitch while the increased tension is trying to raise pitch. We already established that you have to bend the longer (top wrapped) string further to get the same tension increase, so now you've increased the length (lowering pitch) more than you would have by bending the non top wrapped string. This means you have to go even FURTHER with your bend to an even higher tension to raise the same pitch as the non top wrapped string.
Make sense?
Makes sense and that is why the feel changes
Humbucker! makes a lot of sense. though i feel the opposite while playing. i thought about it, but i can not come up with a theory that supports my experience. i thought top wrapping makes it easier to bend. probably placebo.
a very interesting test dylan has shown us here.
i found this on seymour duncan's site and i think we should take this into consideration, because it also makes sense.
The idea is that with the shallower break angle, the strings are free to move more easily over the bridge when you bend.
and this:
The breakover angle and other factors are known to make a measurable difference in the "feel" of the strings. Lower tail makes a "tighter" feel and raising makes a "slinkier" feel. That's a fact.
Perfect sense! I love it when people can discuss not argue these topics!
Here's another thought. Do the experiment again and this time screw the tailpiece down tight. This theoretically wouldn't make the string length go slightly longer, then the pressure required to bend the string might not change at all.
If you screw it all the way down you are creating even more string length. Bringing the tailpiece up would shorten the length not down..
@@chrisdunn2176 I'm not sure.
Wouldn't bringing the tailpiece down make the string rest a little further forward on the tailpiece since the string would come from a lower point, thus making the string travel a shorter distanse to the bridge?
I knew exactly this would be the result although I didn't expect the difference would be so huge. It is very huge in the case of the reverse Strat headstock which is much, much, much more easy to bend (the plain strings I mean), because of the shorter lenght to the tuner post. The reason (in the case of the top wrap and normal strat headstock) is that you need the force to stretch the vibrating portion of the string but then you need extra force to stretch the additional inches of string that are at the other side of the scale lenght. Only imagine that your guitar has a 3m long headstock and a 3m long tailpiece, then you would need to stretch the string a lot further (even off the fretboard) to achieve maybe just a semitone bend.
Maybe you need more power to bend a top wrapped string, because the string (distance from ball end to tuner) is longer than on a non wrapped one.
@DylanTalksTone It's all about the ratio of scale vs. total string length. The longer the string the higher the string tension to get it in tune, but with the scale length being a constant this means higher string tension. And it doesn't make the guitar worse, it just makes it different. With the higher string tension when top wraping you should be able to lower the bridge for lower action without fret buzz.
Hi. Ss far as I know, the main reason for top wrapping is not to reduce effort while bendind, but rather to teduce friction at the bridge, due to wider break angle of the string and hence reduce or prevent tuning issues.
Hence indeed
Thank you for clearing this up. I just unboxed my new Gibson Les Paul Gold top. I've been seeing tons of "fixes" for this guitar and really seem to know your shtuff!
I think this was a good test and just proves what I always suspected, that top wrapping is a lot of shit because when you bend top wrapped, it's pulling the extra string between the tailpiece and bridge as well.
Your point is demonstrated by the need for 'rocking bridges' if a tailpiece bender is used. Dylan's test may not be 100% definitive, but sure as hell it's indicative, so much so that it's worth repeating the experiment with even tighter parameters and measurements.
@@stephensaines7100 If you have the time and run a test to account for the stability of the bridge and tailpiece then that would be interesting to see. I suspect that the string angle on the bridge is by far the leading factor here so the outcome is not going to change, there will just be a more finite measurement.
I think top wrap helps strings to keep clear from touching to back end of the bridge when the tailpiece is very low or when the bridge has to be high due to angle of the neck to the body.
Raise the tail piece ... problem solved. That’s why Gibson made it adjustable.
Like the video, but I think your conclusions are different than the ones I would make. By top wrapping, and reducing the string angle, several things happen.
1. You have less direct force on the individual bridge staddles. This implies that the string - instead of binding as hard on the bridge saddle, will slip more than on a down wrap. This overall means that you have a longer overall length of string that needs to be stretched.
2. With the longer overall length that needs to be stretched, it follows that you have to pull it further away from center to get the same tension increase that changes the pitch.
3. This then means that for standard playing it's going to feel a bit easier to pull the strings around - but the overall bend you need to make is wider, to increase the overall tension.
From that I think you can make two conclusions. Yes, it's "easier" to bend strings with a top wrap - if you go by distance of bend, not pitch change. Yes, it feels slinkier - because for the same overall bend distance, there's a longer string to pull, so it's a bit easier.
BUT - as you showed, you end up having to pull the string farther to get the same pitch increase, and that means more eventual sideways tension, as you also showed.
QED. It's slinkier, and it also means full step and 1 1/2 step bends are harder with a top wrap because of how far you end up having to pull the string.
Well said....it really all depends on the particular guitar and break angle
34 seconds in....I can tell you it's bullshit. I do love that you did this. I love your honesty as well.
As a player who plays with a top wrapped sg and les paul. It's all for tone and sustainability. Not for easier playability. Cause most players who do this have a more prominent playing hand that tends to really hammer the strings furiously. Watch Billy Gibbons, Duane Allman, Joe Bonamassa. It's all about players preference. What feels comfortable to you as a player.
After strings are broke in a difference in bending is noticed. 11’s top wrapped and not too much bridge angle give me more control of the bend, less over bend. With 10’s not top wrapped more bridge angle is needed. This is my playing ability and area of choice with Dadario strings.
Interesting, I have tendency to overbend, so thats why I feel bends to be more natural with topwrap ...
Try heavier strings maybe
@@frag4007 11-50 is what Im using. 12s are not playable for me. From 3 guitars with tunomatic stop tail, I have topwrap on one of them. On the other two, I dont like it.
@@stanislavmigra yeah whatever works. If it looks good, feels good, and sounds good, why change it
@@frag4007 agreed. Im always suprised, how many people needs to bash something, that is so easy to try and reverse without trying it. Ive tried it on 3 guitars, liked on one and left it there.
@@stanislavmigra im surprised how many people bash things without trying them. Like squires i like them granted im a beginner but i even tried a fender and it didn’t feel as natural. Ig some need to bash things to feel like they are better.
Great approach, as objective as possible! Very interesting. I top wrap only because (from my experience) it helps me breaking less strings over the saddles. Never actually felt differences in tone or feel!
Bear in mind that you can raise your tailpiece in lieu of top-wrapping to affect the same angle presented to the bridge.
@@stephensaines7100 but then you lose the toan-energy transfer from the tailpiece to the wood
@@stephensaines7100 hey sorry for my late answer ...yeah I know, but a raised stopbar feels quite uncomfortable (to me) when playing, so I top wrap and screw down the tailpiece. It feels comfortable and reduces break angle
Exactly my experience as well !!!
🤘🏻😎🎸
There might be more force needed to bend the string up a certain amount of pitch but you also showed that to get to the same distance it takes less force. That would mean that simply fretting the strings should be marginally easier with a top wrap, which is in line with some of the claims that people have about topwrapping, clearly though the bending part did not really hold and the experiment seemed to be carried out quite well.
thanks for your video it s very well done. i have my theory which means probably nothing, that is:
with tw the string is looser though it is the same tuning as non tw.
with non tw the string is kind of really tight, when bending you dont have to go very far up because it is already tense. so it goes up in pitch real fast
when non tw the string is loose so you need to go further up when bending . it goes up to pitch a bit slower because there was less tension right from the start
please be free to comment and correct me because i know nothing from nothing
Thanx for taking the time to do this demo. One advantage of top wrapping, only for a strong handed player, would be a wider axis for adding finger vibrato to a bended note and also finding in between notes that are difficult to nail. Maybe this information would be useful to some players with strong hands.
Great demo. This has been my experience as well. I don't have big hands, so when it becomes harder to bend, it's very noticeable to me. I tried top wrapping to match the break angle with the nut and it took more effort to play. I'm going back to slamming the tailpiece down in maybe too weeks -- I want to give it sometime to see if there are any hidden benefits that I'm not noticing.
08:21
One thing I'd like to point out in your demo that actually makes your point stronger is this part: the string has to travel farther across the fingerboard to reach the same pitch. However, in this part, you are only hooking/measuring ONE string. In reality, most of the players pushes ALL the adjacent strings. So if you have travel more across, you are also bending the adjacent strings MORE, so it'd be even harder.
Good enuf for me!! I saw it with my own eyes. Cause and effect is the why of it. I'll be sticking with the not rapping. Thank you for taking the time to do this!
Hi Dylan, while I admire your approach, my experience has shown me the opposite conclusion. I tried top wrapping for deeper resonance and saw improvement EVERY time, what sold me on top wrapping was the “butter” it added to string bends. The FEEL became greatly smoother on EVERY test Les Paul and SG that I own. Some aspects of playing go beyond raw science I guess…. Lol ….Thank you for your service…. LMAO😊
great test! but the feeling is all about the angle... top wrap or not, is the angle that make it light or hard to bend...
very interesting. i was just about to top wrap too, lol. nope! thanks!
Don't really go for science when talking about feel especially if they are using a cheap device Not saying that was done but going to try it for myself then make a decision I just got a new Standard and it does have quite a break angle so 5 bucks for a set of string's Nothing against anyone's research just want to see for myself All good
Hey Dylan ... I appreciate the videos man ... just an FYI ... I heard that top wrap increases sustain. I purchased a Gibson smoke house a few years back and was disappointed that it just didn't play as well as expected for a 2000$ guitar. I noticed that the tail piece was as high as it would go and that the bridge would not go any lower. I also noticed a very sharp break angle and some of the strings were even touching the back side of the bridge. It was ... as I am aware of now ... just a good example of the poor quality issues Gibson had gone through at that time. That's when I finally decided that if I want my guitars to sound and play the way I want then I would have to learn how to set them up myself. since I couldn't make the adjustments to reduce the break angle by adjusting the bridge or tail piece I decided to over wrap. I timed the sustain before making the change and again after over wrapping. It made a substantial difference in sustain. I didn't notice any difference in playability other than that although I am sure it does make a bit of difference. More so now that I have seen your video. Thank you.
The reason it takes 150 g more to bend the string further is because the further you’ve been the string the pressure it takes to bend it further goes up exponentially more, especially at the end of the bending. I’ve been a tool maker for 40 years and worked in engineering as a project manager.
I've top wrapped my TOM equipped guitar in the past, and now I've gone back to the regular way of loading the strings. And I gave top wrapping a fair shot - I played a lot of shows for many months with that method. It didn't have so much of a benefit. Just recently, I raised the height of my tailpiece and that's what made my guitar play a lot easier, almost too easy. I might have to reduce that height to introduce a little more tension because my strings (11-49) are tuned down to Eb, and because my hands are used to a certain amount of tension to bend strings.
and not increase the susutain with topwrap? all the tailpice touch the wood? whtas your opinion?
@@macauley70 Didn't experience any increase in sustain with the top wrap, even with the tailpiece flush to the body. I also didn't experience any loss of sustain when I raised the height of the tailpiece. I keep the tailpiece flush to the body with 11s tuned half down. I raise the tailpiece if I have to play a gig on standard tuning, to compensate for the tighter tuning.
@@getvicky13 tahnks.. and tunning stablity ?
@@macauley70 it takes about 30 minutes to an hour for my guitar to get used to the new tension. No problem with tuning stability, which is honestly more about a well lubricated nut and a good setup.
The reason is because of the low break angle and extra string length behind the saddle, the string slips through the saddle notch and you are in effect bending a longer string. So you have to bend farther and harder. The best thing you can do for feel is raise up the tailpiece to where the bridge break angle is about equal to the nut break angle. The Bottomed-Out-Tailpiece-Gives-More-Sustain crowd will mercilessly excoriate me, but that too has been disproven.
That sounds reasonable.
Major part of topwrappers lower the stop bar all the way down, and thus create the same string angle.
In addition, when the string starts slip through the saddle notch, this not only creates effect of bending a longer string, but also causes friction at the contact point of saddle notch with string. This can be checked using a roller tune-o-matic bridge.
I overwrap my SG was for comfort rather then tone not that I noticed any difference in tone or bending although bendy was more noticeable after a guitar tech did a full setup for me. Oh the comfort is for my picking hand 🖐
It’s because the break angle between the tailpiece and bridge is great enough to break t strings when bending so top wrapping changes the angle.
that's what the tail piece bolts are for ....
DylanTalksTone I think it was done mainly with older style les Paul’s because they were known for it
Overall string length is the reason for more stretch needed. The "friction point" as mentioned on top of the tail piece isn't a stop. Also, a fretted string (not demo'ed) might not need an unreasonable amount of travel distance to reach the desired pitch. Scientifically? Well... it seems you need to stretch the string further to achieve the desired pitch. So, you are negating the benefit of a loose string by having to stretch the string more. What might be a benefit? Maybe, the "sweet spot" harmonic grows a bit wider with a longer string?
YOU ANSWER RIGHT 👌
Thank you 💙
I've being search ling time for the right thing. ....and THIS particular way to find it.
The next step is to know if (with same strings) "Slim Taper" vs "Rounded" have exactly the same tension 🙏😉
That's my principal curiosity now...
It's not the break angle over the bridge as much as the longer string there is to be streteched when top wrapping. Since the whole string, even before the bridge and after the nut, stretches when bending, it is "easier" to bend with top wrapping. But, it needs to be bend further to reach the same pitch compared to without top wrapping.
Folks are just silly.
Consider a Floyd rose with no tag string behind the saddle.
Now take a guitar with a harp tailpiece and 4 or 5 inches of tag.
Play a note bend a minor third.
They will require the exact tension to reach that note. It isnt a matter of how far but how many kg.of pressure.
Folks did that over the top thang in the past because cruddy Gibson bridges would begin to bend down in the center. Top wrapping eased that downward pressure that bent that cruddy bridge.
My theory about top wrapping is that, back in the day, someone who was familiar with the Junior/Special/'54 Goldtop style wrap bridge got an upgrade and wasn't sure how to string it. Wrapped it out of habit. Other people saw this and speculated, "why is it wrapped like a Junior? Does it provide more sustain? Easier bends?" All the while, it was just someone confusing the new abr1 & tailpiece with the old wrap bridge
Interesting! If it is a purely string length thing I would expect the same effect for a top loaded versus string-through body telecaster. Should be easy to verify using a wilkinson ashtray bridge.
I top wrap my Les Paul to prevent the string angle from causing the string to contact the side of the bridge before it contacts the saddle...I keep the tailpiece screwed down tight to the body for maximum sustain/reverberation through the body...raising the tailpiece reduces that contact, and creates other issues...I never felt it made the guitar easier to bend strings...it was a performance thing for me...
Thanks for doing this test the results are interesting and a little surprising. I did top wrap my LP at one time but couldn't honestly say it felt easier to bend. So I went back to the normal bridge arrangement. One thing for sure though if you are looking for really obvious decrease in string tension that really does make string bending more comfortable then tune down. Even a semitone makes a noticeable difference, I settled on a tone which feels really comfortable to my rather thin fingers. Combine that with light strings for example as Tony Iommi does and it will make a big difference.
Interesting. It makes sense that you'd have to move the string further when top-wrapping as there's more string to stretch, which also accounts for the increased effort. The perceived reduction in effort required that many people report is probably because a longer 'throw' kind of spreads out the effort, making it 'feel' slinkier. I do a lot of 'snappy' bends when I'm soloing - straight up to a note and back down again, often on several strings consecutively in a decending run - sounds different to sliding up a couple of frets and a short throw is definitely going to be snappier than a long throw would be. I was thinking about trying top-wrapping on my Les Pauls but, since it would mess up that fundamental part of my playing style, meh, I'll pass.
I thought that Top Wrapping was to reduce the break angle at the bridge and allow you to tighten the stop-bar screws a bit more. I like the feel of the top-wrapped strings under my right palm, but I don't feel any difference when I bend.
Dylan - You commented that you don't know the reason why it takes more pull to reach the same pitch, yet you correctly explained the reason why it does by saying, "...from ball end all the way to the tuner, the whole string moves..." That's precisely why it requires more pull to reach the same pitch when bending: *more friction*.
I'd like to suggest an alternate test, if I may. Instead of top-wrapping the stop bar, raise it up via the posts, to match the break angle of a top-wrapped stop bar, yet with the strings pulling straight through, and re-test using the same methods. *In theory* this should reduce the force needed while negating any added friction, but the test results would ultimately tell the tale.
i did the measurements you suggested as i was shooting the video and the difference was negligible
@@DylanTalksTone
Interesting. I would've expected the force to be reduced with the stop bar simply raised vs wrapped. Thanks for the reply and keep rockin!
Bridge to nut is a constant so the distance of the bend to go up one step should also be constant. Why not? Because the strings can slide across the bridge saddles (as well as the nut slots) essentially detuning the string. The more string that crosses the further the bend required to raise the pitch. I think the top wrap lets more string cross the bridge saddle necessitating the bigger bend. The sharper angle of the non top wrap gives more resistance at the bridge saddle and less string crosses so a smaller bend is required to raise the pitch by a step.
I think you were assuming the two sets of strings - those you had on not top wrapped and those you had when top wrapped - would be identical and would perform in the same way. There is a manufacturing tolerance on the alloy, wire diameter and plating thickness. So even if the two sets of strings were the same brand and gauge I suspect that what you measured was the variation in string performance. you are right about adding stress to the string end twist when top wrapping. The Gibson stop bar width is almost exactly the length of the twist on most strings. Putting a right angle bend in the string right at the top of the twist can result in the string breaking. This is at least one reason why most PRS stop bar wrap over bridges are quite a bit wider.
I'm surprised, I would have thought the longer the string from start to stop, the easier it would bend. And like you said, 150 grams can not be error.
Very interesting video. One of my customers over wraps his les paul for bending.
Maybe it's the further bend that makes it feel easier.
I'm not a top-wrapper, and hadn't heard of the "ease of bending" theory.
I've always heard that the additional string to surface contact on the tailpiece served to increase sustain!
(probably horse hockey)
That may be true if it's an actual 'wrap-around bridge' but much less likely a tailpiece. The longitudinal tensions and sustain would ostensibly be captured with a wrap-around bridge, and also re-introduced to the other strings. That likelihood would be much less on a tailpiece, as that energy would be dissipated in the bridge.
@@stephensaines7100
Of all of my guitars, the only one with a wrap around bridge is a little Melody Maker!
Fun little thing, but certainly not a tone monster!
I remember Bonamassa top wrapping some years back...
Not sure if he still does.
Didn't you make another video that instead of top wrapping to change the break angle, you could just adjust the tailpiece height? That would be a more 1-1 comparison on just the break angle, remove the friction variable.
Also, if it requires more distance for the same bend, then one could assume that maybe it's easier to push the string onto the fret.
makes sense! the old-timey hollow body electric set up where the tail piece is like a mile away from the bridge makes the strings super hard to bend right? kind of crazy that top wrapping makes a 1/4 pound difference in this test though.
Ive kept a couple of my guitars top wrapped for a long time. Recently I watched a video. The video was a rig-rundown on slashs' gear. His tech was going over his guitar and how it is set up. I right away noticed his tail piece was set high, as did the interviewer. The guy interviewing the tech asked him specifically about why the bridge was set so high. His answer was basically for all the same reasons a person generally top wraps. So, the next time I changed the strings on one of my top wrapped guitars I raised the tail piece and didnt top wrap the strings. Does it make a difference? Hard too say. I say yes. But, I dont know if its in my head or not. I seem too notice a difference between top wrapped and raised tail piece. Raised tail piece neing the better. Ive only only had this set up for a couple months. I seem to notice a bigger difference going from a strat to the raised tail piece than I do going from strat to top wrapped.
Hey Bryan. I have the same experience. I tryed fooling around with the hight of the tail piece , and found that getting about the same tension in the tail piece end, as in the nut end of the string, made the guitar feel more relaxed rather than feeling like it was tuned too high and stressed in tension. ( I hope it makes sense .. )
@@mortenjrgensen6729 .....yeah that does make sense. What you said describes what I experienced exactly. Thanks for putting that into words for me.
@@whatyoumakeofit6635 Thank you.
I have found the same thing! I recently purchased a few used Les Paul's and every darn one of them the previous owners had run the tail piece all the way down. First of all, I hate that because I KNOW it's not supposed to be all the way down, secondly it makes it harder to clean the space between the tail piece and bridge. Third, the angle the strings are in when it's run all the way down just seems to be to steep and put too much tension on the strings. I have noticed that it seems the ones with the tail piece all the way down also break strings easier.
@KC Exactly ! And the fact that the tune-O-matic bridge is still in use AT ALL to day is one of things that makes you question if the Earth really is a spinning globe .. ?
Try an experiment with the stop piece in different positions. I'd be very curious to know if that really makes a difference.
I do it, because I like the tailpiece down on the deck, just like the original Les Paul were before the adjustable bridges and saddles came into play. It sounds good to me and feels okay. I use 8 - 8.5 gauge strings.
The reason you have to bend it further is because by top wrapping going around the bridge, you have more string and an entire length from bridge to tuner which requires more bending or further bending of the string to achieve the same tone you have more string to tighten during the band
the reason why is angular tension over distance. while the tension is the same at a point, you aren't bending at where the note is being picked up. and like a fulcrum point, the angle required to get the right vibration is shifted the longer the distance, it would only be 1 or 2 degree's of a difference. you could exaggerate it with 4 feet vs 1 foot. you don't need to travel as far on the shorter string.
One thing I don't see you doing is dropping the stoptail to the deck after you top wrap. Dropping the stoptail again increases the angle and increases sustain (stoptail bottomed out). I too scratch build and have been doing this for 40 years +
lol more sustain.... not
Because the string slides in the bridge, so u gotta bend further, but tension = pitch period. may feel like it's bending easier but you gotta go further to achieve same tension. I been screamin about this for years. tension has to be the same to get same pitch.
I play in D standard tuning so I can use some extra tension to keep the action low without using thicker strings.
I tried top wrapping only difference I noticed was more string breaks.
Great test. I speculate that this might be the case because top wrapping increases the overall string length between the anchor points. On a bend your bending a longer string than a through tailpiece setup - since the strings must stretch over the tailpiece. That may account for more bend to reach the same pitch. If that's true I expect the results would be more pronounced on a guitar with a trapeze or Bigsby tailpiece, which increased overall string length even more.
I think I might take you up on your offer and do a different version of this test. Fascinating!
I just bought a 1978 Gibson The Paul. My guess is that the previous owner used it for slide playing. The bridge was so high it made it hard to play cords and single notes. Wouldn't be anywhere near in tune. And to compensate for the high bridge the pickup's were way high. And the tail piece was all the way down. Now I do play slide but I am a lead guitarist. I have done all the adjustments. It plays great now. I was watching this video and felt I should let you know that your video's have been helpful. And if you look at my channel picture you will see my truck in front of Mt Shasta at the Weed Airport. I live about 40 miles north of there. Peace and happiness brother
I remember Zakk Wylde saying the same thing about top wrapping. I found the same thing with it. Since Les Paul's have the shorter scale length I feel like you can get decent tension with lighter strings so that's why I like it.
Duane Allman did it so good enough for me lol and it might be purely a feel thing I don't always go for the scientific angle when it comes to art If it feels easier it is easier Lot if people do it so must be a reason
thanks for the effort,this sounds similar to people claiming that angled claw in a strat gives you equal tension and better stability....
I replaced my stop tailpiece with a Gibson TP6 on my LPX 34yrs ago so I'm good!
I think what makes the difference you have discovered is the string length. It takes more string to top wrap than the normal design
I'm with you Vinnie. I would agree.
I've been experimenting with a cheap LP....spent a month setting it up completely...gluing in frets, leveling, replaced bridge, pickups, nut, etc.....
It would slightly go out of tune over time. All strings go out relatively the same.
I am strung normally....not top wrapped. I push forward on the tailpiece on the bass side and it goes slightly flat. Not much...maybe 5 cents. I'm starting to think that having the tailpiece set up high on the studs may effect how the guitar stays in tune. It's like a big tree in the wind. As the stress of playing the guitar changes it moves the tail piece studs slightly. I'm going to top wrap and take my tail piece all the way down. Can't take the tailpiece all the way down with a normal set up.....strings hit back of bridge.
I think having the tail piece all the way down may be more stable due to metal on metal of the stud to insert. The higher the stud and tailpiece the more it can pull forward over time.
David Kennedy
You're very probably right with the pull on (too) high tailpieces👍
Why its a bad thing, if the strings touch the back of the bridge? Kindly asking. Can't imagine why....(have on my two the tailpiece max down, sturdy tight on the body, the b and A slightly touching the back of the bridge)
@@lone-wolf-1 I set the guitar up for top wrap. It's more then just changing the strings. It had to be set up again. It changed the tension because I had to adjust the truss rod a bit. You're shortening the string in a way when it contacts the bridge... Mine plays like butter with the top wrap and stays in tune better with the tailpiece all the way down. Some people don't have enough tension with a top wrap.....mine is fine. I've felt the tension both ways.
I know I'm right about the high studs. I could push the tailpiece and watch the string go out of tune. It may effect the uniform shape of the hole when it's high. I'm tempted to glue the insert into the body to make it even better....the insert where the post screws in. Most aren't glued in. It stays in tune the way it is now.
David Kennedy
Thanks for answering, now I understand.
Yeah, glueing the inserts is a good thing. Just a problem, if at some point you want to replace them... I think the play of the posts in the inserts might affect allso the tuning stability. But have no solution for that, besides replacing with high quality parts
@@lone-wolf-1 I bought some cheap replacements for a LP that had 4mm instead of the chinese 6mm posts for top of bridge posts. They were tight....the 6mm were not. Depends on how they make them. Replacements were about 3.00...by the way both set of post's were 8mm on the bottom.....when I measure them one was a little bigger. The chinese do not worry about tight tolerance's.
David Kennedy
On my LP knockoff Harley Benton made in China, the posts have a tiny bit of play... thought about putting washers and screwing them tight on the inserts... but since I have no tuning instability, I'll do it maybe someday later.
I do not care if the striglenght is "shortened" by touching the back of the bridge. Maybe it even helps stabilizing the bridge by slightly pushing it forward...
They may say it’s less tension because they don’t know about the pitch meeting up at a higher bend?? Also if one where to bend it at the same distance, it may be easier but lower pitch.
I have a Fender Traveler. The tuners are in the middle of the body and all the strings wrap a big roller at the bottom. Even with low action it is a pig. I think it is because of the overall stretch from the string on the south side of the bridge. Think about it this way, the longer the overall length of the string is the tighter you have to make the string to get pitch. I think the best reason is the wrap over makes the strings a tad longer and it is apparent enough to add a touch of pressure to stretch notes....the string is actually stretched a little tighter because of the overall length of the string....or...your guess is as good as mine....hehe
Okidoki, 'my two cents'. When you bend a string, you are stretching it from anchor point to anchor point. With top wrapped strings, the distance between anchor points is slightly longer. Whether it's enough to make that difference, I dunno, but that distance is longer.
Consequently, using a string lock at the nut, will reduce tension even more?
I heard you get better sustain with Top Wrapping not just better action if you screw the tail piece right down to contact the body. Makes sense to me.
I never really knew anyone thought it made differences like that, I started doing it some time ago because I thought it looked cool.
Hey, Dylan, thanks for doing this test. I only recently heard of top-wrapping and it didn't seem right cuz, well, that's not how the Tune-O-Matic folks made it to work--LOL!
Now I have a real question. What is the effect if the Tune-O-Matic tailpiece is mounted further down on the guitar? It seems like it would reduce tension, at the cost of allowing more of that extra string length to vibrate sympathetically; and that can either be used (a la Sonic Youth--hee hee) or muted with something, either of which wouldn't bother me personally. Anyway, what do you think?
moving the tailpiece (like on a floating tune 0 matic on jazz guitar and rockabilly will screw up the intonation (they are usually alling with the F hole so you get a general idea to where it is at)
moving it while still have the guitar properly intonated would mean to have also to fiddle with sting gauge and scale length to have it intonated properly
There's late 50's catalogue photos of top wrapped Les Pauls. The same catalogue also shows the stop bar being used correctly, so who knows what the intention was !
I really like how you controlled the experiment and used some comon items to use actual measured results.... with that said its not just break angle they also reference the string being technical a little longer helps with the bending.... That is what "they say"
like the J. Page double need with the tail peices set way back on the guitar... again just the other thing "they say"
Interesting video thanks for posting 👍I top wrap my guitars that don’t have anchor bushings so the bridge posts don’t loosen and bend from too much downward tension over time, this also allows me to clamp the stop tailpiece down closer on the body. Some people coming from longer scale length guitars like the added tension and it rings a little differently with the added string length.
What I notice from play Les Paul guitar and even Explorer!
I stop toprap those because I did brake more strings as I did...
And I fix the issue I hade the string hangup on the EBR1 so I put washers on the bolt to my tailpice and tight it to the body to achieve more and longer sustain!
And it did work awesome !
Sesns 30 your back I no longer plays Gibson but that my help people forward on...
Best regards from Sweden 🇸🇪
Incredibly interesting! Thank you for putting this out!