Evolution, Creation, and New Creation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2023
- Jordan, Sam and I talk about Evolution and how we should reckon with it as people of faith. I shared Tomberg's reflections from Letter VI and X of Meditations On the Tarot with Jordan and Sam as a way of framing the question but we let the conversation flow where it needed to go. We do plan another discussion as I think we only scratched the surface here. I find Sam and Jordan to be top shelf dialogue partners and I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.
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44:00
I know I’ve said this before, but my theology makes more sense to me the more I base it around forgiveness. And I don’t see eternity being much different than that.
God is all knowing because he loves, and is all powerful because he forgives. And in the same way, we can be like him.
Conversation brought this quote to mind as well: "There is no happiness in comfort. Happiness is purchased by suffering. Man is not born for happiness. Man earns his happiness, and always by suffering. There is no injustice there, for knowledge and consciousness of life (i.e. directly felt by body and soul, i.e. by all life process) is acquired by experience pro and contra, which one must get through on one's own. (by suffering, such is the law of our planet, but that direct knowledge, felt by life process is such a great joy that one can pay for it by years of suffering.)" Dostoevsky, Notes on Crime and Punishment
1:36:47 The acceptance of your own death is an incomparable experience of grace, because although death is undeniably tragic, it is also a great gift of mercy. The gift it provides (if voluntarily accepted) is the entrance or birth into a new form of life, and the release from the terrible suffering of this world. This is contrasted with mere suicidal impulse, however, because suicide (understandable as it is) only embraces a release from suffering, rather than the passing into a new life. Death is a Holy Mystery.
1:07:48 I like to express this as "Christ became what he was"
1:37:24
“The voluntary embrace of death.”
Song of Songs. Shulamite woman.
1:19:17 Maximus quote:
“Christ before is his divinity and his after is his humanity, but he is the same before and after” ❤
This is fantastic, thanks to all three of you.
15:30
This part reminds me of the verse in Hebrews at the things that cannot be shaken will remain
1:01:35
Again, forgiveness.
If this makes perfection.
It makes unity. Makes whole and complete.
“Christ is God’s forgiveness.” - GMac
47:13 “The basic quality of the living unity is: to divide itself, to unite itself, to flow into the general, to remain in the specific, to transform itself, to specify itself and, like the living may make itself obvious under a thousand different circumstances, to break forth and to vanish, to solidify and to melt, to freeze and to flow, to expand and to contract. Since all of these effects occur in the same time-moment simultaneously, all and everything can happen at the same time. Arising and expiring, creating and destroying, in the same sense and the same way; therefore the specific, which is occurring, appears always as a picture and analogy of the general.”
- Goethe
That’s for Jordan :)
I was fumbling around on my TH-cam app trying to find a way to copy this, but the only button that came up was the "report" button. So I reported this comment. For being too awesome.
@@modustrollens7833 😃 I can’t send it to you.
1:07:20 "...who, *without change*, became man and was crucified. Oh Christ our God! Trampling down death by death..."
Towards the end I felt like you fella’s coulda used a sprinkling of Kierkegaard. The end of philosophy is folly, the end of religion is stumbling blocks, but the absurd step to follow Christ however feebly or foolishly is true faith. And the absurd step must be taken as the individual into the abyss. May we the wounds of Christ decrease as he increases.
1:06:45 "This is just another question of process." Amen. Yes. Thank you, Jordan.
Re: The framework of Christ becoming what he wasn't before etc.
1:20:20 "The telos that 'gets realized' has to in some sense predate...that which it comes to be."
"To know (not in mere awareness) the limit as the limit is to already be beyond the limit." - Hegel
42:38 Sam distilling and speaking for the masses. *love*
I’m not sure that talking about creation in terms of “old” and “new” is very helpful. It’s the same problem Christians generally end up having when they use the terms “Old Testament “ and “New Testament “. Creation happens at the cross. “Let the dead bury the dead.”
Sam is channeling theologian John Haught of Georgetown around minute 17
The Wounds of Christ are For:
1: the Saints that suffered for Christ the most.
Or
2. The Sinners that were lost in the Darkest, deepest places of iniquities.
Thank you for this Video. Amazing
❤!
Amazing conversation! Will be sharing in my various little ways and looking forward to your next chat...
57:05 Christ in me (and you, and everything)
Takin a trip to genius town
They let me come along for the ride.
@@grailcountry the sign distinctly said "Population: 3" when I drove by it
"When, however, we learn in Christ the nature of our first estate, and the divine destiny to which we are called, we begin to see - more clearly the more we are able to look upon the world with the eye of charity - that there is in all the things of earth a hidden glory waiting to be revealed, more radiant than a million suns, more beautiful than the most generous imagination or most ardent desire can now perceive. Or, rather, it is a glory not entirely hidden: veiled, rather, but shining in and through and upon all things. The imperishable goodness of all being does in fact show itself in all that is. It shows itself in the vast waters of the Indian Ocean, and it is not hard to see when those waters are silver and azure under the midday sky, or gold and indigo in the light of the setting sun, or jet and pearl in the light of the moon, and when their smoothly surging tides break upon the shore and harmlessly recede. But it is still there even when - the doors of the sea having broken their seals - those waters become suddenly dull and opaque with gray or sallow silt and rise up to destroy and kill without will or thought or purpose or mercy. At such times, to see the goodness indwelling all creation requires a labor of vision that only a faith in Easter can sustain; but it is there, effulgent, unfading, innocent, but languishing in bondage to corruption, groaning in anticipation of a glory yet to be revealed, both a promise of the Kingdom yet to come and a portent of its beauty." - David Bentley Hart, The Doors of the Sea
One of my favorites.
Sam bringing the lumber right off the bat. Just got started and definitely resonates.
The curious question over the role of demiurge(s) is Paul’s notion of the god of this kosmos. I don’t think this means we embrace a full blown gnostic notion of an evil creation. However, that something in the creative/evolutionary process got hijacked, and perhaps quite early on. But, to Sam’s initial point, there’s no need to view creation as inherently evil.
1:09:00 is the light bulb moment for me
Would love to see if you could get Jordan and DC Schindler together for a conversation
Omg yes please 🤩
55:30
My answer is again forgiveness.
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
❤
Thank you for your fellowship and generous conversation. Perhaps some of these enigmas/conundrums/unknowabilities are present and due in part to our categorizations of thinking and symbolic structures, which are inevitable and just have to be contended with until we achieve a more translucent and fluid symbolic language. Perhaps God created the materials, principles and laws that allowed us to create ourselves torwards the Malkuth/parousia/condition of universal blissful being. Christ's salvic gift perhaps is at least threefold; to offer a wisdom path and acess to God; as a human being who made perfect choices when confronted with evil; and as the Christ who incarnated to defeat Satan in the war in heaven.
1:12:24 “his moving from point A of Lack?, a sort of mysterious and admittedly paradoxical lack to a gaining of divinity through suffering is itself the condition WE ERRONEOUSLY created for becoming God. Be he still undergoes even that…”
Jordan convo with Peter Rollins? ❤🙏🏼
Yell hes boy
Can you give me the Edwin Muir poem you referred to at about 53:00? Thx
1:03:45 re: "suffering poorly". How about *long-suffering*? Co-suffering (personalist suffering, Tomberg's Imagination, Selflessness) vs. Autonomous, Isolated Individual (Selfish) suffering.
1:05 and onward…being made perfect in suffering…..is he what he wasn’t…….
What comes to mind here is that Christ mirrors this spiritual perfection by his human perfection. Unto us is born this day……a child. He begins as a child. He had to begin as a child in order to be perfected by his suffering. Yet he never was what he wasn’t. A child who becomes an adult is never what he wasn’t. This gets to the analogy of acorn containing the oak tree.
49:05
Zechariah 13;6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
I guess the fundamental theological question in Christian theology is still the delayed parausia. If God has truly come in Christ, why is the world still as it is? We have the cross at the heart of the whole Christian story and so our answers to these questions have to be shaped by that.
1:30:00
Power - numbers 14;17, Matthew 9;8
Around 1:03:00. What about animal suffering? What is the purpose behind their suffering? Are they made more perfect?
We were not explicitly addressing theodicy in this conversation, but your question is a very good one. To me it is the cosmos the is broken by the fall and the cosmos that is restored in the apokatastasis
@@grailcountry How does God's perfect love, mercy, and justice allow for a human caused fall to cause suffering in the animal world? Evolution provides for an easy rationale for pain among animals and humans in that pain promotes survival advantage.
1:23:47 re: Christ ACTUALLY being our beginning and end vs. God the Father's intention
Where does this intention EXIST? This is nominalism or gnosticism. Whatever isn't bodied...isn't. Even ideas are a body (with correspondent multiplicity), imo.
1:17:10 “we get to participate in his perfection without having (necessarily) undergone the crucifixion ourselves…”
I don’t think so.
There is no salvation without martyrdom, either the red or the white species.
"1 Weird Trick" soteriology. Best complemented with pre-trib rapture eschatology
1:15:30. Why not pre-existence?
Sam is a Unitarian
Yeah, I know. Sometimes our preconceptions can blind us from contemplating all possibilities, sometimes even true ones. @@grailcountry
Cause Mormon
But seriously, I agree that we can't ultimately get away from the idea of pre-existence since we are destined for eternity, which is timeless, which means on some level we are already there. It's just that pre-existence isn't linear, i.e. it isn't any more pre-existence than it is post-existence. I think of eternity as correlating to the firmness of a resolution or intention, in this case God's immemorial resolve to create us. Suppose you were given godlike power to create/control your own timeline (and that you already have a child in case, as a matter of real life, you happen not to have one). You would always choose a timeline in which the same child results (which as far as I know means always having to choose this particular timeline over and over, at least up to the present moment in which you are making the choices). This makes your child eternal for the purposes of this example. This is what I think eternity means. It also critically has to do with identity since love is seeing one's own identity(/THE Identity, i.e., God) in the other. In other words, loves guarantees this kind of immutably firm intention (firmness such that no alternative is even *thinkable*) because one cannot even conceive of oneself apart from the beloved, so inseparable is the beloved from one's conception of oneself.
And yes, the real universe--as incarnation--is God's conception of Himself. The Infinite beholds Himself in the mirror of finitude. Creation is God imagining Himself through our (individual and collective) imagination of God.
Oh dang does this comment concern pre-existence in a narrowly Christological context? I should have watched the rest of the video first. I got distracted trying to respond to what I thought this comment was saying