Piper Cherokee - new technique for great landings!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Flew with a new instructor last week for the GPS approach video, and he showed me his way of flying the pattern. It was one of those things that just clicked. I've never had a ton of confidence in my landings, but this really made a difference!
P.S. How do you like the 80's graphics in the video? :)
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The Cherokee wing is different than most aircraft in that it gets real wide close by the body. This allows for extreme ground effects that when landing just before touchdown you can pull the yolk back and not climb but float to touchdown very smoothly... ..
I like that, never really thought of that. It does float quite a bit, even if you're pretty on your airpspeed.
@@IslandSimPilot I own a Piper Cherokee RC airplane, and yes she's a floater too on smaller scale. Lands like butter as well
Seems like the C-172 floats even more.
What year Cherokee is the plane you’re flying? 1966? I fly a 1966 Cherokee 180 and trim similarly. My speeds are 100 mph downwind, 90 base, and 80 final. Thanks for the video.
Hey Bret! This is indeed a 1966, it's a 160 conversion. My speeds are exactly the same.
That trim crank would drive me nuts!
It's weird at first but you get used to it after a while. Once you get to the point where you remember which way to crank the thing for nose up vs. nose down it's just second nature.
There's lots of discussion items in this video but the overall point you demonstrated very well in this video is to stay in front of the airplane and already be thinking thru the landing configuration sequence ahead of time. One of the things I love/hate about the PA28 is its so docile and user-friendly you can sometimes get behind the airplane if you get distracted or zone out. Your video is a great reminder that no matter how many hours we log or how familiar we are with that aircraft, we should always be thinking ahead and have a plan. One tiny critique, you settled nicely over the numbers and were tracking pretty well down centerline but you kind of yo-yo'd the yoke before touchdown. Be careful, that is a potentially bad habit and might cause a balloon or porpoise if you have a little too much speed. I know, because I've done it, and it's a little scary when you pop up 20-30 feet after a sudden headwind. You had it nailed, just keep that yoke steady and ease it back slowly and she'll settle like a butterfly with sore toes. Good job on the video, great technique...safe flying.
You're absolutely right about "playing the trombone" on the yoke, Rick. It's a bad habit I picked up and one I've worked to get rid of. Thanks for the comment!
@@IslandSimPilot You are quite welcome. I also had that habit so it instantly caught my attention. The entire landing sequence is by far, the most enjoyable part of flying for me. really enjoyed the video and since it's been a couple years since you posted it, I'm sure you're nailing those landings now.
@@rickkimball6125 Fly safe, my friend!
Easier said than done. Yes, you really have to control your hands and hold the yoke and not yo yo it. I done it also. I am a student pilot.
Thank you for this video. You indicated that you didn't have confidence in your landings and you've devised a technique for pattern work that no doubt is making you more comfortable. One of the things that you've stated in the video and in responses to comments is flying by the numbers. I believe that is the takeaway here. Once you feel more confident about landings by the numbers that you've set up on takeoff, try varying this.
Your pattern work technique is fine but we don't fly like that outside of the pattern, so next change it up for instance by doing pattern entry from cruise. You've got the numbers already, so just transition to nail them as you enter the pattern. This way you'll be getting to the same numbers in any situation. Paul, VA
I couldn't possibly agree more, Paul, that's excellent advice. It's about making the airplane do what you want it to do. I've since transitioned to two other aircraft, but the knowledge I gained flying this airplane was invaluable (as has been transitioning).
The airplane never got ahead of you. I will definitely try more aggressive trim and popping my flaps earlier the next time I fly around the patch.
I went out again last night, and this really worked very nicely. I was landing it like a butterfly with sore feet. That first notch really stabilizes the airplane and I found at 2000-2100 RPM and that first notch, it settles nicely at about 90 MPH. When you're abeam the numbers your speed is already where you need it, and it just makes everything so nice and simple. Let me know how it goes!
@@IslandSimPilot How many notches of flaps do you have applied when you are on final in these segments? I just acquired a 140 and am trying to get used to landing it.
@@joscarjr Hey Jamie, my normal landing in this airplane is two notches, and that's what I have in this video. Be glad to answer any questions you have!
@@IslandSimPilot Thanks!
@@joscarjr Any time, Jamie! What year is it? The one in this video is a 1966.
No thats not a good landing in a PA28 !!!! Who's leg are you trying to pull.The aircraft has plenty of elevator power to flare with a nose high attitude. You can then lower the yoke forward ever so slowly and the nose wheel will come smoothly onto the tarmac.
I have alot of Cherokee time, My secret to a smooth landing is the speed, stable 80 mph. In the flare, level off 2 feet above the runway and hold the nose at this attitude by raising the nose gently to keep the nose at 2 feet, the mains will kiss the runway, add a little power and you can keep the nose up as long as you want, about 1000 rpm, you will impress everyone, and don't forget, use the centerline, not 15L or 15R......
Airspeed is definitely the key to good landings.
You must burn up a lot of runway with at technic!
What about a 40 degree centigrade day 3 pax 3/4 tanks a little luggage and a hot bitumen runway ?
Thank you for the video. Love all the tips from every one. Let's see if I pass my medical, so I can join all of you flying. Dream since a C.A.P. Cadet NY Air Wing from 1979. Now 54 years old.
Hey Orlando, I wish you the absolute best of luck! PM me if you have any questions. Where in New York were you in the CAP?
Great video, thanks for sharing! Knowing what RPM to set the throttle too makes sense for consistent, duplicatable airspeeds. Trying to just watch the airspeed indicator to set the throttle you might end up chasing it a bit. Trim, the poor mans autopilot, makes life so much easier.
Thank you so much, Shane! Trim is your friend, it really is. And knowing your power settings is really helpful, you're not always going to get exactly the same performance in terms of airspeed, like you said, but it will be close enough.Then it just takes little adjustments.
I don't put that first notch of flaps in that early unless there's Cessnas in the pattern.
great vids,, i,m thinking about trading my 73/c152 for a 72 charrakee,, looks like a great plane to operate, and fun
Cherokees are a ton of fun to fly!
@@IslandSimPilotchanged my mind,,,did alittle research,, a notice for the wing brace,s under the seats,,second bolt holes,, prone to small fractures around bolt areas.
,trading for a areao champ tail dragger 1947
Yes, indeed, trimming the plane at key set point in your flight makes your flying so much easier.
Sure does, Anderson!
I'm a student pilot and own a 63 160 and can't get the flare on touch down right with out it lifting back off the runway , I noticed you don't pull Back much on the yoke much at all , are you touching Down on all three ? And you float down the runway before touch down , your really good 👍👍
Hey Ron! The best piece of advice I can give you is that there are 3 keys to good landings: airspeed control, airspeed control, and airspeed control. Seriously. Really focus on nailing your airspeed. For me, 85 MPH on final, 80 at the MOST over the numbers. If you're going 90+ into the flair you're going to have a helluva time learning to land the Cherokee well. Took me a long time to figure it out. It's all about airspeed! Feel free to ask any more questions - glad to help!
I shoot for 80 to 75 (depending on DA) at the numbers and let her sink just holding the nose wheel up til contact. your typical cub/cessna flair will pop it up. trim and speed my friend!
@@IslandSimPilot Yes, I just realized that also. Sometimes, with strong crosswinds and updrafts I keep my airspeed at 85 on approach but then I need to get it to 80 or the plane is touchy with the landing (balloon a little) The faster speed really makes for more difficult landing. Forget about 90, you better just go around.
@@aaronhall5380 Crazy how you just fly it slow on to the runway and then hold her nose up a little and letting her touch down on the mains and then gently put the nose down.
@@kimberlywentworth9160 Yeah, even just a little bit of extra speed will cause problems. I think it's the biggest issue that us weekend warrior pilots have. Literally everyone flies the pattern and approach too fast.
Hey I did not see you add final notch of flaps, also at the end are you adding so power.
Hey Vin, yeah, I normally landed this plane with two notches. I know there are various opinions on this. Do you land it with 3?
This is a nice procedure, but you are dragging it in with that engine. I fly a PA28-161 and one thing about the Cherokee's with any flaps deployed is they sink fast if the engine dies. Just always make sure you can make the runway in case of a engine failure.
Hey Cap'n! I always make sure I have the runway made before I pull the power. Now, would I be able to make the runway from any point in that pattern in the case of an engine failure? I'm not 100% sure to be honest. I know from anywhere on downwind the answer is yes. Base might be a different story. I've thought about it a lot, and talked about it a lot with other pilots. A pattern where you can make the field at any time in case of an engine failure would be a pretty tight pattern, and it's not always possible. But you do bring up an important point. Fly safe, my friend.
@@IslandSimPilot Pitch is for speed, power for altitude. Altitude is time. I fly out of Pueblo (sometimes the density altitude can hit 9K) where we have DOSS (now called L3) aviation. They do the initial flight screening for anyone who wants to fly for the airforce. They make this Delta class airport feel like you are flying into oshkosh with over 40 planes in the pattern. They do whats called a Run & Break procedure for their landings. Its fast and tight but once they are ready to call "Initial", which is mid-runway, they can land without any engine. Not sure if you could practice this procedure at your airport, being that its a little odd and might freak out other pilots in the area lol, but once you have it down it will help you to learn how to come in and land with no engine at any time in the pattern. Nice videos, keep flying safe!!
@@cptgizmo7344 "Pitch is for speed, power for altitude."
Sorta. :)
@@cptgizmo7344 What is the run and Break procedure, I am a student pilot
@@kimberlywentworth9160 a run and break is a method of entering the traffic pattern. It involves flying the aircraft at low altitude above the runway. The Doss DA -20's do this at about 1000 feet AGL. At some point, usually above the runway mid point, the aircraft makes a sharp turn, or “break” to either the left or right. During the turn, the aircraft looses speed and is configured for landing (flaps, gear etc). This turn also places the aircraft onto either the left or right downwind pattern leg. The aircraft then turns base and final before landing as normal. You can tell when the DA's do their break cause their engines go to idle and stay there until they land. Doss has their students practice this because its a normal landing procedure for fighter jets. Pueblo receives a lot of fighter jet's for refueling and they come in formation and do this run and break procedure, its really cool to watch.
nice job
You were fast on all the landings. Looks like 80 knots if you have a standard ASI. You were also high on all, but the first landing. The last one, you landed 1000+ feet past the touchdown markers. Why do you use 1800 instead of 1700? Fly the speeds for each flap setting and use throttle as the last change. Seems like being high, you have the chop the throttle and dive to the runway method going on. Not being critical, just passing along what took me 120 hours to finally learn. My instrument instructor showed me a true stabilized approach. I can't see not landing with power any more.
The last landing was at least 3,000 feet beyond the 1,000-ft markers 😅 That runway is nearly 12,000 feet long. If you look you'll see a mini runway painted onto the big one, that's the one I was aiming for on the last one, and I put it perfectly where I wanted it. 80 MPH (it's a pre-1974 plane) over the numbers each time, flared at 65 MPH each time. I'll take it. Flying an ILS or an RNP is a completely different thing.
It seemed l I'll me you touched down on the nosewheel first.
Hope not! :)
Hey @islandsimpilot just watched this video a few times as i'm struggling with landings. on my 3rd lesson. How much are you using your feet to adjust the rudder on final? Or are you mainly using the yoke? I've been having some shaky landings that are nearly crabbing due to over-adjustments... just trying to figure it out
Hey! First thing is, give yourself a break. Third lesson is VERY early. Be patient with yourself. I personally crab it down final, so I'm just using the yoke to maintain centerline. I don't use the rudder (much) until I'm in the flare and straightening the plane out for touchdown. If I could go back and give myself advice at your stage of flight training I would say, the biggest thing to focus on is airspeed. Look at your POH, find out what the approach speed should be for your airplane at the flap setting you're using, and really focus on that airspeed. Use trim! Trim is your friend. Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. Most people fly WAY too fast in the pattern, because we get nervous being slow when we're low down to the ground. If you get your airspeed under control it makes everything else so much easier. What plane are you flying?
@@IslandSimPilot thanks for the advice! I have been told to give myself a break, thank you for the extra reminder, I think thats key. I am flying a piper cherokee pa-28 (just like yours I think). Its relieving to hear youre mainly using the yoke on final, and not heavy rudder pedal usage like me. My instructor tells me to approach final at 70mph on 3rd notch of flaps. Getting back to back lessons this weekend so hopefully the repetition gets me smooth.
This only works for circuits - is this right -
The PA28 Cherokee is a very stable aeroplane, which is very easy tto fly from base, final to landing just using the nose attituce and 1500 R.P.M. The aeroplane is a very stable platform and one only has to cross the fance at 65kts and all is well.
When he was on approach I knew he was left of center line. Drove me nuts, like move to the center line. Also, I have the throttle on around 2000 and fly it down to the runway on the center line get within a few feet of the runway and then I let the power out gently and flare. I can not stand to watch this landing.
I was a bit left the first one, but dead on centerline for the next 5. Probably just feeling out the wind on the first one.
@@IslandSimPilot I just looked at the first landing
1 notch of flaps the entire downwind leg and the 2nd notch abeam the numbers? running 80mph the entire downwind? and this is a cfi teaching this? ive been around 15 years in aviation and never have seen this. flying mostly pa 28 160 and 140. always run 95 mph on downwind. 1 notch abeam the numbers and then still feel like we are crawling. would you use this technigue with a 10 kt wind 60 degrees off the center line? i certainly hope not. how bout flying into class D or C on a 5 mile final with a regional jet on your butt? you will be told to "expedite" could you if fly this was your standard "technique"?
Hi there! Yep, Master CFII with 7,000 hours dual given in Cherokees. He's in Rod Mochado's ads and used to be in King School ads, so I think he knows what he's talking about. And I've been around aviation for 42 years (took my first flight in my dad's 235 on my first birthday). ;)
"would you use this technigue with a 10 kt wind 60 degrees off the center line?"
Sure. Why not?
This is a class D, my home field (KRME), and I'm 90 MPH on downwind, so only a hair slower than you. This is just me in the pattern by myself. Obviously you adjust for conditions and traffic, but if you're on final "with a regional jet on your butt", who has priority? In that instance it would be you. And as PIC you are the one who decides as to the safe operation of your aircraft. :)
1.3 VSO in the Cherokee is 71.5 MPH. Like the Kings say, almost everyone flies the pattern too fast. And they're right. Most Cherokee pilots are sloppy on speed and come barreling down final at 90+, and then wonder why their landings are poor and inconsistent.
I learned to fly in the late 1970s and I was taught the same basic technique. In knots, it was 80 on downwind, with one notch of flaps, 70 knots on base and final. My instructor didn't want me to go beyond two notches of flaps, at first, because a go around would work out better than having that third notch of flaps in there. I had a lot of trouble with making a smooth landing until an old time instructor said that instead of looking straight down the runway, as the text book said, if I looked around the airplane,to the side, etc, and I'd be able to gauge my height better. It worked, at least in my case.
Great video, very smooth flying. Feels like you’re really in there! I’m curious about something - the airplane seems like it wants to roll left. It could be the camera angle, but it seems like you have to hold a little right aileron all through the pattern. Am I seeing things?
Could be my weight on the left side, maybe also a little more fuel on that side? Those are my only guesses, but you're absolutely right!
@@IslandSimPilot , check your aileron trim. Mine was stuck in a slightly down position, which raised my left aileron and caused me to fight it. After flying for four hours, and getting tired of fighting it, I checked. I was able to loosen the cinch nut, move the tab to a neutral position and retighten it. It worked great! Stay level hands off now. Check it out.
Upstate Flyer; With those symptoms it’s usually worth adjusting the rudder trim to compensate.
@@BlueLineSpeed Hey, you're absolutely right, it's something I had never really fiddled with!
Upstate Flyer; Fantastic, Glad it helped. Safe and happy flying!
Did not ?announce the turning in the traffic pattern😔😔😭
It's a class D, I was on with ATC. :)
.full circle haha. i fly that exact plane at griffis
Oh no way! That’s hysterical. Great airplane!
After you pulled the power in the first landing, it looked like you were about to touch down without leveling off first. How did you know the exact moment to level off before touching the runway?
The key to landing is to not land. What you're trying to do is stall the airplane a few feet above the runway. Knowing the moment to level off before touching down just takes experience. There are a lot of ways to think about it. Some people say to start leveling off about the height of a wind sock, maybe 10 feet above the ground. Other people say to do it the moment the runway really expands quickly width-wise in your view, though I never subscribed to that theory. It's really your peripheral vision that helps with this. Are you a student pilot?
More thoughts: Notice how I never let the nose come down. Once you level off over the runway you keep the nose up until the plane runs out of energy and it touches down on the main wheels. I was so super familiar and comfortable with this airplane that I could get it within a foot of the runway before leveling off. I fly a different plane now.
@@IslandSimPilot No, I'm a private pilot. However, after a few months of not flying and having no experience in a piper, I wanted to get an idea before I start my instrument training. Thanks!
@@user-lr2jv1uk7s Oh that's great! If you have any instrument questions give me a shout. michaeltryan at gmail. Instrument training is a blast!
Awesome landing!
Thanks!
40 minutes of hearing a engine noise not cool
Sorry. :(
nice landing
Thanks!
Only 2 notch of flaps ?
Yeah, that's what I typically land with.
Outstanding hoss
Thanks!
Walt Sz
I really needed this video! Thanks so much for posting this !!! I think i found my issue in being more agressive with adjusting
the trim.
That's fantastic, Jay, I'm really glad!
Abeam the threshold count 19 seconds, reduce to 1800 rpm,flaps 2,then turn base.
Interesting idea, the problem is that in varying wind conditions that won't work.
For me you cutt off the engine too early...one day with more wind and windshear it will be very dangerous!!! You should keep the power longer that you do!
It's interesting, in this airplane, you can cut the power at basically any altitude that you have the field made and just descend with the ASI and VSI. Make sure the airspeed stays at 80 MPH and the VSI doesn't go over 1,000. It will do just fine. Now in the Cherokee 180 I fly, if you cut the power at even 50 feet AGL it drops like a piano. Each airplane flies a bit differently.
@@IslandSimPilot you re right each airplane has their own behaviour . It s true you can land without power as engine failure pattern whatever the plane but just for emergency. i fly on PA28 warrior and cessna 172 skyhawk and in my point of view and for safety it s better to flare lower that he does and keep power longer because when he will change of type of aircraft as you said he will be maybe very surprising and a little bit frightened with his method!!!😊
As someone who learned at a Cherokee I'm glad I did not see this video first as I would have decided to be a locomotive engineer instead. thanks for your dedication misguided though it may be
This from someone whose only flying video on TH-cam is of himself literally flying a kite 🤣 Please forgive me if I don't take your criticism too harshly 😂 That is hilarious.
@@IslandSimPilot no offense that is hilarious
I'm sure it's safe with such a long runway but seeing you take ages to reconfigure the plane after landing just irritates me
Never do anything in a hurry in an airplane.Every once in a while someone augers in on a touch and go because they forget something. This is a simple airplane, but I'm not in a rush. Plus my clearance is for "the option", meaning a touch and go, full stop, stop and go, etc. No other traffic in the pattern, so no biggy.
I believe irritation is a very dangerous think in aviation.
@@benjansssen Not sure I follow...
What is the handle above your head that you turn from time to time? I assume it’s for trim?
Yep! That's the trim wheel.
Pretty noisy engine. Time for a tuneup!
It's been overhauled since.
Several feet left of centerline
I know, Art, and thanks for noticing! Lol
Very beautiful landings
Thank you so much, Charles!
What is your use of carburetor heat and mixture for this in-pattern work. Nice instructional video. I liked my 160 with over 400 hours logged.
Hey, per Lycoming's guidance, no carb heat unless carb icing is suspected. In this particular video I don't believe I touched carb heat at all.
I take that back! At the 5:15 mark I checked the carb heat.
Nice video what was your old technique? LOl
Flying the pattern too fast like everyone else! :)
Yo dude I am only 12 with 2.8 hours in that airplane I just did some touch and goes yesterday
TrickShots - And More
That’s awesome. I am 40 and I just started flying. I have 7.5 hrs. I wish I would’ve started at a young age. Keep it up Bud!
Thx I was inspired by my dad who's flys for delta
@@timking2997 I started in my mid-30s. It's never too late!
49 and just getting started. Having the time of my life!!
Keep it up TrickShots. I started when I was 71 and got my private certificate at 72. Like others, wish I'd started at your age.
Is this a 140 or 180? Are you holding 90 all the way until you cross the threshold or bleeding speed on short final?
90 on downwind, 85 on base and then 80 on final. This is a 160 HP conversion.
@@IslandSimPilot That is the speed I fly in the 140 HP
I'm a new student pilot (i started a week ago)I'm having this problem of keeping the aircraft on the center line when taking off and landing. I'm learning in a Cherokee 180, do you have any tips for keeping it straight and center?
For takeoff, definitely right rudder. And don't wait for the plane to start moving to the left before you apply the right rudder. You have to start putting in the rudder as you apply power. For landings, I would definitely talk to your instructor about it, it could be several things. Good luck with flight training!
Landing, two things for you:
1. As your airspeed slows, the control surfaces (ailerons, elevator and rudder) will become less effective because less air is moving over them. To counter this you will need larger control inputs - don't be timid about doing what you need to do, to make the airplane do what you want it to do.
2. Left-turning tendencies. When landing and you begin the round-out (flare) phase, you increase the propeller angle-of-attack which results in the right blade producing more thrust - aka: P-Factor. P-Factor combined with spiraling slipstream results in the plane yawing left during round-out. On takeoff you don't wait for the yaw to begin taking action, you anticipate it and apply right rudder as you apply power. The same applies to landing, as you round-out you simultaneously apply right rudder.
Good Luck!
@@archerpiperii2690 Well comin right up to the checkride now on 60 hours, i completely forgot about this comment lol but thanks for the info
@@IslandSimPilot About to do my checkride, over 60 hours now and thanks for that info
@@floppychzcake7936 Best of luck to you! The advice I would give you is: don't do anything new! Fly the checkride exactly like you normally fly. Your instructor wouldn't sign you off if they didn't think you were ready.
Any students watching, please don’t fly like this. Dragging the aircraft round the circuit followed by a chop and drop with inconsistent centreline maintenance. You need more training, I wouldn’t have sent you solo. Having the aircraft in such a slow draggy config on the downwind will cost you about 10-15 seconds of glide time than if you were in a normal cruise configuration. Could be the difference between getting over the fence or crashing through it if your engine fails. All because you couldn’t be arsed the trim it a few times for a difference airspeed. Very poor techniques all round and not something any students should be taking on board.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion Darrell. Your argument would imply that you shouldn't add flaps or reduce speed until you have the field made. I don't think I'd want to be reconfiguring the airplane and dropping 45-50 MPH of airspeed on short final. Up to you I guess. As to "inconsistent centerline maintenance", I really have to disagree. I was 5 feet left on the first landing and dead on centerline the remaining 5 landings. Lastly, in this airplane (a '66 140) you can chop and drop just fine, if you do it in the 180 I'm flying now you're going to have problems.
But this is what you get for posting stuff online. Some people will like it, some people won't. In the meantime stay well, stay healthy, and a happy 2021 to you.
@@IslandSimPilot Yeah you’re right, next time, I will do an entire cross country at pattern altitude in approach configuration to save having to retrim the aircraft or do any piloting. I may have been a bit harsh on the centreline, but the day you have an engine failure on the mid field downwind in that config, after making a turn towards the airfield you’re going to wish you gave yourself that extra bit of speed and a clean airframe, it will give you some more room for maneuver. I’m not saying you should always have the field made before configuring, but aviation is about limiting risk and giving yourself a chance. Something to think about...
That traffic pattern looks like something you would fly in a B-52.
I can make the field just fine if need be.
I’m curious. What is your base, final and numbers speed??
Downwind 90, base and final 80, short final (numbers) 70. That's in MPH.
Thanks! I’m almost ready to solo in a Cherokee. It for some reason, my brain wants me to stay fast. So I do base at do and 75 over the numbers. But that’s in knots. I guess I need to trust it to go slower and seeing that many people fly the numbers a lot slower is good. I also think it makes the flare easier as well.
Thanks again. Your pattern is solid and the video was very helpful.
Vedio is too long.....make it below 5 minutes