Hey gamers! A couple of things. First of all, as of 7.33c the damage per stat for Universal Heroes has been boosted to 0.7 - so these numbers are now even higher. We've updated all the numbers on the spreadsheet to reflect this too. We thought we'd throw the link through to the spreadsheets in the comments too for those watching on mobile! When you get the chance, definitely save a copy for yourself onto your own computer (File -> Make a Copy) so you get full access to the filters and can reorganise all the sheets based on whatever info you want to analyse. Phil didn't mention in the video, but it's written in the README page on landing that it's a really useful tool for figuring out which components to pick up first when building items as all of the stat and damage items and components are listed and analysed on the damage pages for each attribute group - it's super useful and we've all been happily enjoying the resource while we've been getting periodically lost in the extra map space. Here's the link :) docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dMPCtooyviWXe10NI5sO4E4-1hjR7N3yeriCad06fTk/edit?usp=sharing Happy gaming!
Good video! I do want to point out though that while Iron Branches are more efficient than Faerie Fires for Universal Heroes, it's good to buy one anyway just to save yourself when you go for an early fight because of the health.
Very true! Faerie Fires are still an incredibly good item in the early game for the burst heal active - when you can remember to use it ;) Phil's main focus with this video was breaking down gold efficiencies in terms of raw damage numbers. We should have left in the bit where he mentioned that all these numbers need context and just because certain items are better in terms of efficiencies, doesn't necessarily mean they're always a better choice in every game. But Phil has a habit of rambling and our editor tries to keep our videos as concise as possible; so that got left on the cutting room floor which is our mistake. Good catch!
Phil actually started playing Meepo since the buffs in 7.33 happened and it feels entirely unnecessary to have Meepo be a Universal Hero since he already benefits so heavily from buying attribute heavy items like Treads and Skaadi. We're pretty sure that it was an intentional decision to not do that in Meepo's case as otherwise he becomes entirely unstoppable well before he hits that level 11ish timing where he's able to comfortably sustain through teamfights with the Ransack lifesteal of having two clones fighting alongside him. Having an additional 220 odd HP with a drop in damage of only 4 points is just way too strong. We think that's why none of the illusion heroes were moved into the Universal Hero pool since they all want to be building attribute items anyway, it just makes them way stronger. Morphling is an interesting one. They've made his super early game weaker which we think is necessary as in times gone by it was impossible with certain drafts to ever kick him out of lane whereas these days he's got to choose whether he wants base damage to last hit or HP to survive. We'd be skeptical about putting him in the Universal pool as then he'd just get too much benefit out of the items he's already buying. We're of the opinion that Universal heroes are meant to be second best at everything, so you still want your biggest tanks, your biggest carries and your biggest nukers to be tied to a primary ability.
Nerfing Meepo's base stats doesn't really solve any issues and instead exacerbates the issues he already has that players don't take advantage of. Meepo inherently wants to take unfair fights. He wants to bring all his clones to overwhelm you with numbers and benefit from his Ransack lifesteal through having all his clones there fighting which can bait players into taking a bad fight if a clone is low HP before all the other clones poof in. If you isolate and nuke down a single clone, they all die. Dig and MegaMeepo are two abilities which give him a way to preserve the life of a clone, keeping him relevant in fights when he's being nuked down. There's this weird balancing act with Meepo in that he has to be tuned so that one clone is fragile enough to be killed, but the whole clone army should (in an even net worth fight) come out on top - power in numbers and all that. Meepo should be the first carry to come online and dominate the map, but he should eventually be out paced and lose to harder carries if the game goes late enough. Meepo has to play tempo, by design. If you nerf Meepo's base stats, the whole clone army gets nerfed by association because their stats are dictated by a percentage of Meepo Prime's. The clones need to be tanky enough to be able to roam and split the map while farming as that's what gives Meepo his inherent GPM advantage that other carries have to build items for. But if you buff their HP too much, then they all become entirely unkillable. There's no "real" downside to Universal heroes stacking STR items, whereas for Agility heroes they lose out on damage, attack speed and armour if that's the route they go down. It's why Dragon Lance has been a core item on Meepo despite him being a melee hero - it's the most cost-efficient way to gain AGI and STR in the early game, which is when Meepo is weakest. Making Meepo a Universal hero wouldn't shift this items benefit at all as the math works out to be exactly the same base damage, it would just mean all those other all stat items he's picking up in the later stages of the game (Skaadi, Scepter, Scythe of Vyse) would make him and the clone army even stronger, which means all you're doing is pushing his power spikes later into the game and making them even harder for the enemy team to overcome if he gets an early advantage as all the items he usually picks up would be giving him even more damage if he was a Universal hero. It's a hard line to tread, which is why we can understand why they've not moved Illusion/Clone based heroes into the Universal pool. They just benefit too much from building all stats already.
It's the evening for us so we're working on another video 😉 We usually have someone monitoring the comments section while we work away. Our editor is working on the edit while we sit in a Discord call and give notes/shoot the breeze and we usually monitor the comments section at the same time. You caught us at a good moment!
We saw the patch notes and wondered if this video might get a bit of traction again hahaha. Keep in mind we've updated our spreadsheet so all the numbers are correct now, including when the multiplier changed to 70% instead of 60% of stats. Check out the spreadsheet and get those Invoker builds theorycrafted hahaha
does any on know the jungle item that give you a boost of 12 + for every secondary stats . can someone explain how does that work does that mean i just get agi,intel,str because they are not my main stats?
Hi there, are you referring to Pupils Gift? For Universal Heroes, it gives half the benefit to all three attributes. As of writing this, Pupils Gift currently gives +15 secondary stats so for Universal heroes they gain +7.5 to all three groups
Yeah it caught us off guard too, but we were happy to see so many sweeping changes that really shook up the game. We were getting tired of all the players complaining about patches not being big enough. We were amused just how many suddenly were saying there was too much - classic Goldilocks gamers, huh? A lot of the Universal heroes we've experimented with so far (Beastmaster, Brewmaster, Clockwerk, Dazzle, Visage, Void Spirit) feel really good with the changes despite what the numbers might infer. The added flexibility in item builds without having to concern oneself with damage drop offs from not investing into a certain attribute has felt really freeing - especially for us optimisers who like to itemise around more holistic utility builds.
Hey gamers! A couple of things. First of all, as of 7.33c the damage per stat for Universal Heroes has been boosted to 0.7 - so these numbers are now even higher. We've updated all the numbers on the spreadsheet to reflect this too.
We thought we'd throw the link through to the spreadsheets in the comments too for those watching on mobile!
When you get the chance, definitely save a copy for yourself onto your own computer (File -> Make a Copy) so you get full access to the filters and can reorganise all the sheets based on whatever info you want to analyse.
Phil didn't mention in the video, but it's written in the README page on landing that it's a really useful tool for figuring out which components to pick up first when building items as all of the stat and damage items and components are listed and analysed on the damage pages for each attribute group - it's super useful and we've all been happily enjoying the resource while we've been getting periodically lost in the extra map space.
Here's the link :) docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dMPCtooyviWXe10NI5sO4E4-1hjR7N3yeriCad06fTk/edit?usp=sharing
Happy gaming!
I think dk should be in it
Good video! I do want to point out though that while Iron Branches are more efficient than Faerie Fires for Universal Heroes, it's good to buy one anyway just to save yourself when you go for an early fight because of the health.
Very true! Faerie Fires are still an incredibly good item in the early game for the burst heal active - when you can remember to use it ;)
Phil's main focus with this video was breaking down gold efficiencies in terms of raw damage numbers. We should have left in the bit where he mentioned that all these numbers need context and just because certain items are better in terms of efficiencies, doesn't necessarily mean they're always a better choice in every game. But Phil has a habit of rambling and our editor tries to keep our videos as concise as possible; so that got left on the cutting room floor which is our mistake. Good catch!
I just found this channel and im really happy i did! Keep up the good work!
Welcome aboard! Hope you enjoy what we have to offer
Love your vids man keep it up!!
Glad you like them!
Still peeved that heroes like Meepo and Morphling are still Agility heroes.
Phil actually started playing Meepo since the buffs in 7.33 happened and it feels entirely unnecessary to have Meepo be a Universal Hero since he already benefits so heavily from buying attribute heavy items like Treads and Skaadi. We're pretty sure that it was an intentional decision to not do that in Meepo's case as otherwise he becomes entirely unstoppable well before he hits that level 11ish timing where he's able to comfortably sustain through teamfights with the Ransack lifesteal of having two clones fighting alongside him. Having an additional 220 odd HP with a drop in damage of only 4 points is just way too strong. We think that's why none of the illusion heroes were moved into the Universal Hero pool since they all want to be building attribute items anyway, it just makes them way stronger.
Morphling is an interesting one. They've made his super early game weaker which we think is necessary as in times gone by it was impossible with certain drafts to ever kick him out of lane whereas these days he's got to choose whether he wants base damage to last hit or HP to survive. We'd be skeptical about putting him in the Universal pool as then he'd just get too much benefit out of the items he's already buying.
We're of the opinion that Universal heroes are meant to be second best at everything, so you still want your biggest tanks, your biggest carries and your biggest nukers to be tied to a primary ability.
@@beneaththeveil How about them nerfing Meepo's base stats and stat gain to make it work?
For Morphling, yeah that would be pretty sick.
Nerfing Meepo's base stats doesn't really solve any issues and instead exacerbates the issues he already has that players don't take advantage of. Meepo inherently wants to take unfair fights. He wants to bring all his clones to overwhelm you with numbers and benefit from his Ransack lifesteal through having all his clones there fighting which can bait players into taking a bad fight if a clone is low HP before all the other clones poof in. If you isolate and nuke down a single clone, they all die. Dig and MegaMeepo are two abilities which give him a way to preserve the life of a clone, keeping him relevant in fights when he's being nuked down.
There's this weird balancing act with Meepo in that he has to be tuned so that one clone is fragile enough to be killed, but the whole clone army should (in an even net worth fight) come out on top - power in numbers and all that. Meepo should be the first carry to come online and dominate the map, but he should eventually be out paced and lose to harder carries if the game goes late enough. Meepo has to play tempo, by design.
If you nerf Meepo's base stats, the whole clone army gets nerfed by association because their stats are dictated by a percentage of Meepo Prime's. The clones need to be tanky enough to be able to roam and split the map while farming as that's what gives Meepo his inherent GPM advantage that other carries have to build items for. But if you buff their HP too much, then they all become entirely unkillable. There's no "real" downside to Universal heroes stacking STR items, whereas for Agility heroes they lose out on damage, attack speed and armour if that's the route they go down. It's why Dragon Lance has been a core item on Meepo despite him being a melee hero - it's the most cost-efficient way to gain AGI and STR in the early game, which is when Meepo is weakest.
Making Meepo a Universal hero wouldn't shift this items benefit at all as the math works out to be exactly the same base damage, it would just mean all those other all stat items he's picking up in the later stages of the game (Skaadi, Scepter, Scythe of Vyse) would make him and the clone army even stronger, which means all you're doing is pushing his power spikes later into the game and making them even harder for the enemy team to overcome if he gets an early advantage as all the items he usually picks up would be giving him even more damage if he was a Universal hero.
It's a hard line to tread, which is why we can understand why they've not moved Illusion/Clone based heroes into the Universal pool. They just benefit too much from building all stats already.
@@beneaththeveil Dude, wtf are these paragraphs? No other plans for today? 😅
It's the evening for us so we're working on another video 😉 We usually have someone monitoring the comments section while we work away. Our editor is working on the edit while we sit in a Discord call and give notes/shoot the breeze and we usually monitor the comments section at the same time. You caught us at a good moment!
Thank you big help! Hope for you to have more subscribers!
We appreciate you!
Really insane stuff dude! Thanks a bunch
Glad you enjoyed
Thank you for the video, very informative.
Glad it was helpful!
Whos here cause invoker got the universal buff lol
We saw the patch notes and wondered if this video might get a bit of traction again hahaha.
Keep in mind we've updated our spreadsheet so all the numbers are correct now, including when the multiplier changed to 70% instead of 60% of stats. Check out the spreadsheet and get those Invoker builds theorycrafted hahaha
Thank you. Well explained.
Glad you appreciated it ☺️
Thanks!
does any on know the jungle item that give you a boost of 12 + for every secondary stats . can someone explain how does that work does that mean i just get agi,intel,str because they are not my main stats?
Hi there, are you referring to Pupils Gift? For Universal Heroes, it gives half the benefit to all three attributes. As of writing this, Pupils Gift currently gives +15 secondary stats so for Universal heroes they gain +7.5 to all three groups
bizzare change, don't know how to feel about it yet, even some of the items are changed to fit the new stat type
Yeah it caught us off guard too, but we were happy to see so many sweeping changes that really shook up the game. We were getting tired of all the players complaining about patches not being big enough. We were amused just how many suddenly were saying there was too much - classic Goldilocks gamers, huh?
A lot of the Universal heroes we've experimented with so far (Beastmaster, Brewmaster, Clockwerk, Dazzle, Visage, Void Spirit) feel really good with the changes despite what the numbers might infer. The added flexibility in item builds without having to concern oneself with damage drop offs from not investing into a certain attribute has felt really freeing - especially for us optimisers who like to itemise around more holistic utility builds.
please improve ur voice its so hard to listen to your video, great content tho