Why We're Sending the Yoeleo R12 Frame Back
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ธ.ค. 2023
- Aaron's shop: / bs16bicyclesolutions
About Yeoleo: lichtbike.com.au
Channel Subscription: bit.ly/2NViYKI
In this video we'll share why we're sending the Yeoleo R12 frame back to head office after finding an issue with it. We're after your vote to help is decide on whether we continue on or not.
#yoeleo #roadbike - กีฬา
Hello, Cam.
We are very sorry that this happened to you. This is something that we hugely regret and we will take note of in hopes to avoid this from happening to any customers or partners in the future. We truly admit that our quality assurance process should be improved significantly to ensure that you and everyone receive products that is fit to use and reflect our promise on quality.
We have shipped the replacement frame and ensure that this frame reflects our promise on quality, also reflect our regret and attempt to improve. We are thankful for your honest feedback as it helps us grow and learn, and we are absolutely willing to be fully transparent and cooperative regarding this issue. We are sorry that we have disappointed you, your audiences, as well as our loyal customers. We hope that all of you are willing to give us a second chance, and are will to help us improve in matters that we are lacking.
In addition, we would also like to clarify that this is purely a mistake we made and does not reflect how we view partners and customers, and it is not by any means intentional. We are truly sorry for the mistake, and hope that all of you are willing to see and support us grow. Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Yoeleo Sports
This sounds sincere and is all nice but trust is a thing you can only earn once. If you lose it it is (most likely) gone for good and (almost) impossible to regain. It simply raises questions that are hard to answer. What if it weren’t a TH-camr but a regular, ordinary client? Would he/she be treated the same way? Buying anything from China means freight, custom clearance with related fees, duty levied and VAT to be paid each occasion, not to mention the extremely complicated return procedure with the customs office by trying to reclaim duty paid in vain. You may get it back but it will take months. Hence the competitive advantage goes down the drain pretty quickly and you are left with a bitter taste in the mouth.
As a Yoeleo customer, i am really sad about what happened. I have been riding Yoeleo since 2019. This video is a big warning for the brand to improve QC aspects. From the comments i read, customer service also needs to be improved.
However, i do believe giving a second chance to Yoeleo is a must. I really believe they will not repeat the same issue.
Cheers!
Oh my goodness! I ordered my R12 frameset two months ago and I'm still waiting for it. I was initially quite excited about it, but after watching this video, I'm genuinely concerned about what I'm going to receive. To be honest, I'm thinking about canceling my order. I also ordered carbon rims, so my concern is doubled. I really don't understand why Chinese manufacturers can't put in a bit more effort and attention to provide better quality standards. No comment
@@hiccusz We're very sorry for the inconvenience. We promise you that we will always be responsible for our mistakes, and that we do not differentiate between regular customers and influencers. As a part of showing our regret for the defects any customer/influencer encounters, we cover the tax for the replacement. Whenever we have customers with issues, we will always be there to help and resolve the problem until it is fully solved.
@@laurensius8275 Thank you, we appreciate the support. We see the mistake that we've made as an opportunity to grow. We are continuously improving our QC and customer services, and we wouldn't be able to do so without the feedback and support that we receive.
Thank you for the support!
Let Yoeleo make it right and continue the project. These issues are becoming more common even with the big name brand frames as well. I recently watched a video where cannondale had to replace a brand new frame twice because of quality control issues and they drug their feet both times. Move forward with this project. They have obviously taken time to post regret and apologize which is more than you would get from the big brands! Cheers
The problem with Yoeleo isn't how they deal with TH-camrs, it's how they handle and treat paying customers. I've spent two years trying to support the brand with content. All the while they have been getting complaints about extreme fulfillment delays and QC issues. I've had friends personally who have had to cancel orders with Yoeleo for these very reasons. And despite Yoeleo's promise to improve, I am still getting complaints about their customer service to this very day.
The cycling market is currently going through an over correction. This isn't the same pandemic market like 2020 and Chinese brands in general are becoming very saturated. There's just too many option on the market now to tolerate such an obvious error on Yoeleo's part. With all that said, I do believe Yeoleo will figure out. I want the brand (all brands) to succeed because it's great for customers in the end.
Indeed. Several other Chinese companies have distinctly better customer service. ICAN certainly does (at a lower price point). Same with Elite Wheels. I like my Yoeleo R12 but I don't like dealing with the company. I don't think as things stand now I would ever buy from them again.
I think all the problems would be solved if we just recognised that some Chinese brands simply aren’t worth dealing with.
Or take the smarter alternative; just buy the tried and tested western stuff.
Sure, they’re likely made in the same factory location. But you’re paying more for someone else to QC potential issues, and to raise a fuss for you if problems do occur.
Hello, Patrick.
We are absolutely grateful for the feedback. Thanks to your input, as well as input from various people and groups from all around the cycling community, we can recognize our flaws, correct our mistakes, and improve in all kinds of aspects. We are doing our best to live up to our promises, and we can assure you that we will put extra care and time into ensuring that everyone, partners and customers alike, receive a high-quality product that will not disappoint.
Thank you for believing in us!
@@YOELEO How long will you be in the improvement/learning process? The new R12 frameset was supposed to be an upgraded and improved version. Considering your established presence in the market, I'm curious when we can expect a point where we can fully trust in your quality standards?
@@penkopeterHi, in this case the issue is purely with the individual from our QC department who carelessly proceed unqualified frame. From the product development and all small parts included we are very confident with the quality and precision.
We won't disappoint you.
I know its a big hit for you, but we sincerely regret this issue and will committed for improvement.
Issues like this should not happen. But unfortunately the reality is that one can see faults in frames quite often. This is not down to Yoeleo or Chinese brands but also happens with some of the big brands that we know (also just think about some of the recalls we have seen over the past years).
For me this is now really down to customer service and how issues like this are going to be handled. When Chinese frames have been crazy cheep one was kind of mentally prepared having to deal with some hassle while sorting these kind of things out. Now that we see some of the Chinese brands pushing their prices up, they have to reinvest into proper customer service, distribution and quick logistics to sort out missing parts, replacement frames or repairs in a simple and timely manner.
While i am a very happy R12 owner (i got the frame way before i even had a youtube channel) i can see quite some frustration here in the comments. I personally would give them another chance as i think Yoeleo is just realizing that they are now playing in a higher league compared to some other Chinese brands and therefore have to step up their game to keep up or things will come crashing down quickly.
Hello, thanks for the support and the feedback.
We realize that we indeed still have a long way to go in terms of customer service and quality assurance, which is why we are currently improving our customer services and assessing our quality assurance process to ensure that everyone has the best experience with Yoeleo. We appreciate all the inputs that we have received on this issue, and we will utilize them to improve and grow.
Thank you for trusting us!
Problem is, if Yoeleo's response to this situation is good - we cannot draw any conclusions about how their service would be for us 'normal people'
@@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv that is true but seeing how vocal people are in some of the comments here i think we will know very quickly if the situation doesn t change within the next couple of months i think.
@@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv Hi, thanks for the concern. Rest assured, we deliver the same exclusive treatment to all customers.
We rarely encountered such issues, and when we do, we make sure to handle it well and send replacement products as soon as possible. We are always available for assistance and we promise to assist any and all customers with any and all issues they might be facing.
I wonder if this happened because it was a custom color frame and they hung the frame from that hole when they did the custom paint.
Never owned anything from Yoeleo, only knew some friends who did. While it is a big flaw (and a safety hazard if went unnoticed), I think they deserve another chance. Everyone makes mistakes, even major brands make mistakes at times, and I think there shouldn't be any harm in having some more faith in Yoeleo considering that they do seem to try to be better, from the pinned comments at least it seems. On the bright side, this shows that they're not cherrypicking when sending samples to influencers and shows that they have integrity, both in products and owning up to their mistake.
Giving another chance. You're right 😊
Note that satrio banyubiru works for Yoeleo @@satriobanyubiru6652
This is very sad to see... I received my R12 earlier this year and absolutely loved using it, I had no issues whatsoever with it either. The frame was in perfect shape, it had no flaws or defects and assembling it was a cake. It goes especially well with their road handlebar too. It's sad to see that others did not get a similar experience like I did. I do hope that Yoeleo sees this and fixes the issue right away, I have high hopes that Yoeleo can be better.
Well done on being transparent and maintaining integrity with your reviews 🙏🏻 as a TH-camr of course they will jump through hoops to make good this error I.e. express post a new frame that has been scrutinised in their QA, if they have one.. and give you more free goodies to try and ‘save face’, but would be interesting to know if they’d do the same for a regular consumer?
I think a blind purchase is always going to be more representative. As seen with other TH-camrs and I believe Elves, the frame they send to him knowing he would review it on his channel differed loads from the frame he bought via an anonymous friend for him to test. The quality of the carbon was far from the same.
Even so it is mind blowing they would send out a frame with such a huge defect to a TH-camr, not sure if this speak in their advantage or disadvantage.
Hi Cam, thank you for the update. I think yes continue. It's a known brand that people are buying and would like feedback on the brand. If you buying from a China bike brand this can or will happen, seeing the good and bad is a must. I am 100% looking at doing this as the main bike brands cost so much. And a lot of people will be searching for this brand and will see your channel.
It's not all about the problem found on the frame. It's how the company responds and makes it right. Big brands have problems also, refer to Hambini videos. I have an R12 as many people do with no problems at all.
Cam, please DO keep up this project. You are absolutely correct that these reviews are a great resource for those looking to make buying decisions. Love all your content mate, looking forward to a lot more in 2024!
I was sent the gravel bike. I can't fit 2x transmission on it because the chainring rubs
Sorry to hear Hambini. And yes our G21 is not fit with road chainring unless we put a little spacer on it. For GRX 2x and sram DUB wide it should work well 😊.
Welcome to the new beautiful world of new standards!! Don´t worry, SRAM will lead the "innovation" of at least 5 new BBs and 7 new ways if fitting a discbrake to a frame or fork!! A few new chains, I´ve heard, is also down the pipeline.. Rgr
Had a friend who bought a Lamborghini only to be left standing with a bruning engine on an Italian Highway. Go figure. Anyway: suggest you give the new frame they sent you a try. Things happen even if they should not. My R12 2023 frame was perfect, custom paint beautiful and no issues when riding.. One of my wheel sets from Yoeleo had a hub issue - Yoeleo sent me a replacement after a couple of mail exchanges, otherwise my Yoeleo wheels have also been great.
Cam, really liked the first few minutes of the video, your statement about transparency and your bias about supporting small business. As a viewer, I know exactly where you stand. Honesty is the best policy. Keep living it!
Well Done. The QC Problem was professionally & respectfully presented not done as an attack on the Company or AU Distributor. There's no way an oval hole for a thru-axel is acceptable. Yoeleo's posted reply is a positive step in the right direction. Now, let's see if their actions speak louder than their words.Was wondering if the "quick replacement" won't look the same ie; Paint job.
Please keep the Project going.
Unfortunately Yoeleo has been using the same answer for quality control for years and nothing has improved. I was told their frames are made by an external company so they hasve no real control over the quality
No problems with my R12 Yoeleo very happy with it and is one of the best frames I’ve ridden, and still ride.
@Fffdgjjnnii OK
Kudos to you Cam for being transparent. This should never have left the factory so I say move on to the next project.After seeing this I would not consider Yoleo .You could send it to Hambini or Leuscher Teknik for the chop to see if there is any more defects.
Kudos on the manufacturer sending out a new frame no hassle. I've dealt with parts out of China where the reps have not been so easy to deal with. Question on my mind is would a regular consumer get the same treatment you did as a TH-camr or would they be jumping through hoops to get the issue rectified.
honesty, being factual, and having integrity are all we expect of you and your partners, distributors, and the factory. shyte happens, perfection is the goal and really tough to achieve.
i think it would be good to know , by continuing with the new frame, if this was an unusual error or more typical of their approach - thats what we need to know. Knowing that the frame is great might make the effort or worry to get a 'good' frame less of an issue, if it is a mediocre frame then its clearly not worth the bother. thanks fro sharing this video - I think knowing this is almost more useful than only showing positives, and will be the only thing that makes brands (from any country) up their game. Hambini was talking this week about expectations of bikes (re quality in a legal context) becoming more akin to cars and motorbikes given the value of the product.
Continue with the project. Years ago I purchased a Specialized Roubaix frame and it came with a mis-aligned front dr hanger. Unfortunately, these QC issues happen. I would like to know if there are any issues with the second frame … and the overall project is interesting.
They will make sure this next frame will be perfect, but that's the problem, it just shows how the QC of this brand is..
@@flynando I was in QC and we had a few things slip through once in a while. Either the person making the check gets complacent, careless, had a miscalibrated gage,...humans make mistakes even when QC is stringent.
@@flynando So it´s one bad egg in the basket and the complete basket is rotten?? Strangely enough, same reasoning that racists use.... Rgr
Appreciate the transparency Cam, and although I’d never consider buying a frame from Yeoleo, I would suggest that you carry on with the project. All frame manufacturers have occasional faults that somehow get through the QA process, but the thing that is important from a consumer perspective is how the brand, but more often, the local distributor addresses the issue.
I’ve seen this in the past where the reputation of a brand differs significantly between the UK and the US for example, and it was purely down to how the country’s distributor treated customers when things went wrong.
It’s not to say that Yeoleo shouldn’t be ashamed for sending such a defective frame out of the factory, but if the replacement is handled well by your local distributor then that would at least help instil confidence for Australian customers that Yeoleo is a brand worth considering.
As for consumers from other countries though……..
Always appreciate the honesty and transparency that you and Neil always stand by in every video, love the videos as always Cam
Hi Cam! I cannot believe Yoeleo sent you a frame without not even a basic inspection for obvious failures, Makes you wonder what the hidden part of the frame looks like! I certainly lost my trust in this company.
This is a real world scenario for the general public and has had a sour start, continue the build and see if you can turn a lemon into a peach there’s only one way to find out. In the current environment of mfg demands QC is a challenge for all companies, customer service and support experience is another aspect of being a customer, in most cases the general public we would allow a company to right their wrongs. Thanks for the honest and transparent reviews.
Perfect vid cam. Warning sounded and heard by all
A lot of us would like these China bike builders to succeed, if not to give more variety but get these top tier brands to bring there prices back to a realistic price range for the average punter to be able to afford a great bike frame. But things like this don’t inspire confidence. I’ve personally just gotten a certain American brand frame knock off . (Lance )of aliexpress for 1200$ Aussie. Frame fork,one piece bar stem , headset, seat mast, thru axels and bottom bracket delivered to my front door. I wasn’t holding out much hope but amazingly everything went together really well . How it stands up over time is yet to be determined. Let’s hope it all improves the entire scenario for better quality, more realistic prices. Keep it going , I feel Cam, GC performance, China cycling and Luke from Trace velo are battling for the everyday cyclists to be able to afford the sport . So I say keep going.
Continue these projects, it’s what your viewers appreciate. Forget upsetting the brands and distributors
Like see it finished as its stunning colour 🔥🔥🔥
I see a bunch of guys saying Yoeleo isnt worth it but, Ive beaten a bunch of guys on SL7 and a Madone on these two Yoeleo bikes I've owned. This is technically my second full season on road bikes. The first season i started was cut short as a girl was on her cellphone and she hit me. It took me a while to not be on guard from getting hit or falling. Then i had my bike stolen and was without one for 5 months and had to ride a MTB. 2022 and 2023 are the first two years of really riding and learning cycling. Its funny how guys turned their nose up at me when I bought these bikes. One guy said it wasn't worth the price. He showed up on an SL8 and we were neck and neck the whole time. Now everyone ask am i coming out. I don't even lije pulling my Specialized Allez 2023 out. Its literally a commute bike. I guess its good that im savvy because the prices they are charging you all I didn't pay that price. Their customer service was cool for me. The woman who i use to deal with is now gone from the company. She was great. A few others were merely okay. Heck...the bike shop by me, specialized sent out 2 cracked frames. The shop had to send them back. Shimano is a big company and we see whats been happening to their cranksets. Even these major car companies have recalls. It is what it is.
Your purpose behind your entire post can be surmised from two lines inside which read “ it’s good that I’m savvy” and “I’ve beaten a bunch of guys”
lol the reverse snobbery of you folks who seek validation by turning up on your non-mainstream bikes, just to rub your few years of training advantage on the new kids is nothing short of pathetic. Actually, it’s more laughable how you guys get offended because other folks don’t mind throwing money on their new toys, almost as if the way they spend their cash is your business.
@87togabito its more laughable of the snobbery of those who say Chinese is trash and then have to eat their words when beaten by the said trash. It's funny how I went with all Chinese parts and proved it's really not the bikes. I don't frown at the new kids at all. I went against the old heads in the game. I teach the newbies what I know and go for a more cost-effective option. I still call myself a newbie. I didn't spend over 1700 on my initial build and was clearing rascals. Where I'm from, the snobbery is high for the mainstream brands. Yet, I appealed to those interested and couldn't afford these ridiculous prices. Because of me and the hard work I've put in, guys now respect all brands where I'm from. It's to be expected that rascals thought my condensed matters of over two years was snobbery as I left out a ton of details. The harsh reality is most don't know how to get what the need out of a deal. They lack the patience to achieve that. The minute things don't go theory way, they get an attitude and bash instead of using it to their advantage and come up with a solution to benefit all. I've gotten a lot of people in my region and on my social media platform into riding and going to get bikes.
You are sadly mistaken
But go crazy
@@craven4adventure Let´m shop from the Big Boutique Brands. While they can, most of them will be gone in less than 10 years. Rgr
I'd still be interested in hearing your opinions about the frame (once you get a replacement). These days there are few manufacturers selling mid-level framesets alone so it's good to know what options are reasonable if I end up needing to buy a frameset only
Owned R12 for a year and now having R11. I think gonna check the frame issue mentioned in this youtube see if having same QC problem. So far R11 is my favourite compare to R12.
Mistakes happens, and as long Yoeleo takes the responsibility and warranty the frame you should carry on. I have some very !%##! big problems truing the calipers to the discs on my R21 frame. New brake pads just leaves the problem even bigger😅
Hope you get a flawless frame👍
As has been mentioned, even big name brands get things wrong from time to time. Mapdec (a UK bike shop YT channel) have recently been dealing with an awful design from Cannondale with the Super Six Evo headset. The carbon in the top headset Cup is so thin you can bend it with minimal force. They thought it was a headset install problem on the original frame but then the replacement frame sent out (which warranty was honoured) had exactly the same problem.
If the frame arrives and all is good, I would build it up and test it as normal. If they can promise the same level of service to an ordinary paying customer who comes across a similar issue shows the level of intent they have at providing after care to customers.
It is poor QC to let that happen but it can happen at any brand at any time.
If you really want to make an impact with the brand, end the project. Send them a message that haphazard QC will not be tolerated. Only then will they apply the requisite resources to the problem. In house QC costs them money, so do mfg rejects. So unless you cost them the sale and promotion, it is not really in their interest to actually fix the problem. The easy solution for them is post sale replacement and apologies to the customers. As a former quality manager for a large mfg company in the US, getting a company to make significant changes to their Mfg processes ($$ investments) to eliminate quality defects requires serious loss of sales.
So good to see this video right now, since I was interested in getting a Yoeleo frame. I’d agree and say end the project, and let the loss in sales be the kick in the behind these brands need.
Yoeleo is an amazing brand with great frames and wheels, and is at a price point that gives so many more people the opportunity to get an amazing bike at an affordable price and help grow the sport. This isn't uncommon for other big brands also regardless of investment into QC, things can be missed. Let's not smash every brand that has an rare issue, or let large bike brands charge insane prices for bikes. Let's look at the quick response of Yoeleo and there willingness to solve the problem.
@firasmaruf5045 is a very unfortunate situation that we are having. And we really regret having such an issue. If you're still interested to our products we will definitely deliver perfect product to you. And we can offer you free lifetime warranty.
Try ICAN sir... Won't dissapoint
There is one major key element that I see no one covers when it comes to these Chinese frames. Its the biggest reason why I chose Yoeleo. Their website shows complete full bikes. You can buy a whole entire bike from them. The insurance companies honor complete bikes if something happens to it. When my bike was stolen, i asked a bunch of questions. They needed to see the exact bike and build in order to pay me out. When i wanted to change my insurance, i asked the other companies about how they operate with bikes and it was basically the same. I got paid twice for the same bike. It got hit by a person driving and when it got stolen. As much as Winspace got good reviews, they dont have full complete bikes on their website. Most of these Chinese brands have frames on theirs websites. Beware if something happens to your Chinese frame and that brand doesn't have full complete bikes on their website. You maybe in for a huge hassle if something bad happens.
Bought 88mm wheels from them in the past. They had to send me three replacements before I could use them. The wheels look nice - but because I had to pay import taxes every time, the pro vs con scale skewed pretty fast -
I actually considered Yoeleo wheels 4 years ago, before eventually choosing a set from Light Bicycle (still great today). This experience would make me cross them off my list for any future purchase possibility.
A Honest factual video doing your 184000+ subscribers a great service as a no cover up platform will Yeoleo learn from this and fire the QC department on the spot "I WOULD" its normal to give a brand a second chance but that's it thanks Cam loved the video.
Yeah, they sent me a R12 and it had a crack in it and i had to send it back. They gave me a little push back at first but sent me the brand new model. The new one is flawless. They did have issues with stock at one point. It took me almost a year to get that R12 then it had an issue. They were cool about sending me a different model because the first one I ordered wasnt no where near available or ready. The cut me an insane deal on that bike. Im actually glad it worked out that way because the R21 is definitely the better bicycle. 😂😂😂
I've had some pretty bad experiences with their customer service, one that's on me and one that isn't. I ordered a frame for my dad they said was in stock that wasn't and took several months to ship out. The other experience is that I ordered the wrong wheels and they made the customer support exchange super long and tried to claim that therefore I went past their three day return policy, which was super frustrating. I ended up getting them to take the wheels back and replace them with a model that worked for my bike, but I don't know if I'll be buying from them any time soon.
Just out of pure curiosity, what mistake did you make when ordering the wheels?
@@DaveCM I did an idiot move and ordered rim brake XDR driver when I needed disc brake Shimano driver
Yoeleo is notorious for a wide range of quality control on their frames
I've had some problems getting them to respond to a seat tube issue with my R12 and in the US we don't have a local distributor. It's a minor issue. Several weeks ago they said they would send me another seat tube (after I offered to buy another one). Since then radio silence. With that said, it's a really nice bike to ride. I suppose the one good thing about what you found is maybe Yoeleo is not cherrypicking the frames they send to TH-camrs. Mine certainly didn't have that problem.
That's good and bad though. It's a goddamn lottery
@Shadowboost True. But from what I see on TH-cam it is not a problem unique to Chinese brands. Still, Yoeleo really needs to work on their customer service.
Edit added. Aboutb hours after I wrote this Yoeleo contacted me to indicate they will be sending me a new seat post on Jan 4.
Another update. Once I managed to get in contact with a customer service representative named Rio, things went much faster. They made a new seat post for me (actually two of them!), and it solved my problem. I'm not sure, but it's possible that some of this action on my behalf occurred as a result of my posting complaints on about every Yoeleo R12 thread. Whatever the reason, they solved my problem. And I have the impression that this whole experience for Yoeleo has shaken things up a bit. Anyway, thanks again to Rio. Finally, now that the bike is totally silent I'm extremely happy with it. It is quite fast, and Incredibly comfortable.
I ordered a Yoeleo R-12 two weeks ago. It is weirdly the exact same black to blue fade color as this one. I have an R-11 purchased two years ago which I cracked by over tightening the seat post. It is still save to ride but my bike shop won't work on it due to a strict policy. I'm now using it as an indoor training bike. Waiting for my new frame. Hopefully it will arrive before the winter is over.
@Hit_me_up_CamNicholls What the heck is "telegram"? What do you expect to gain from this?
Scammer mate. Sorry see the @ name
Just end the project! Thank you for sharing that with us
Your videos are really hard to click on, although they have been recommended over and over by people.
I was JUST about to buy the R11 frameset. I think I will be buying different brand... ?
Unbelievable!! I have had 2chinese frames a winspace g2 gravel which i had to file the frame as shifter cables would not fit in, and now a ican xgravel which has been a dream to work on.. still all these videos and sending sh*t to youtubers is absurd.. i dont think i can buy any more.. at least a 'big brand' from a LBS will have warranty and better chance of less issue.. but then again you have to pay more.. i am still keen for this build and ride video however.. need some redemption and would like to see Gary review the carbon as well. Yeoleo is supposed to be premium so i would like to see it all the way through
I really like ICAN. i've bought a frame and four different wheel sets from them. All flawless, and communication is always easy. Also they deliver very fast.
@@stuartdryer1352 nice! I am impressed with the frame, it's cheap as well.. I would like to know the layup quality etc, however I use mine for gravel and so far takes it like a champ offroad.. I also use the alpha carbon wheels also no issues. Happier with build and ease of parts vs winspace... just always have a background worry about the strength and qc
People need to stop equating big brands with smaller ones and assuming that their products are essentially identical just because they are manufactured in the same facility. Big brands work more closely with manufacturers, employing different manufacturing processes and higher standards of quality assurance. Customer support aside, quality issues are less likely to occur even with the high production volumes associated with larger brands.
@JustSueMe I"m sure this is true statistically. But you are paying a huge markup and at this point it's hard to quantify the risks and benefits because a lot of what we have are isolated casevreports like this one. And not all Chinese brands are equal ( or big name ones either for that matter). In my business we would say that the evidence is low quality and not entirely free of bias.
超磨
Chao Mo 😂
I say proceed. All brands make mistakes, because all people make mistakes, but it's how they respond and adjust to make right that matters most.
Things go wrong and thats life, it's how it's corrected thats important. I work in MedTech and as an industry we have crazy stringent QA standards, but things still go wrong and patients get hurt or die. I'd still keep going with the project. From what I hear Chinese frame makers and kit suppliers are getting very good very quickly and will soon be a real threat to the mainstream industry. Also, its not just Chinese companies that have QA issues, my steel gravel bike frame is going back under warranty because of severe corrosion under the paintwork, and that was made in the UK by an extremely well respected company.
Same here, QA Mgr in MedTech. Regulatory framework is stringent and problems do occur and are reported to Health Authorities with a robust CPA in place. Unfortunately Yoeleo's response in this one reveals gaps in their QA and questionable company culture. Hope they fix it really.
No issues with my r12 from yoeleo, sad to see but they will fix it
Making a good frame should be the the *norm* . I think this video proofs that Yoeleo isn't there yet. They need to do better checks during their process. That frame went through a lot of hands and none of them spotted the egg shaped hole...
Keep it alive, lets see it play out all the way, it can happen, and you hope they remedy the issue promptly which it seems they have.
This is good BMC sponsored content
Keep it going, QC issues need to be highlighted to the paying public.
I would suggest that you see what the 2nd frame is like in this instance. However, if this was my own cash I would return the frame for a refund (if possible) and probably wouldn’t buy from the brand again.
Time after time the cycling industry proves it’s not engineering driven, it’s such a shame.
To Yoeleo, if you genuinely want to use this to improve standards then make your bikes the best in the business, make a clear set of checks that each bike must pass before it’s packed. Make your BB tolerances good enough that failures become related to wear and tear rather than because the hole isn’t round.
You and all other companies CAN do it, you just choose not to for financial reasons. If you want the sales then make the product beyond reproach, the sales will follow.
moustache game is spot on
You think Specialized or Cervelo frames are all perfect?
I would have thought the distributor would do a QC double check knowing that the frame was going to you for a review. Sure, manufacturing errors happen sometimes, but there is no excuse for not catching them before the product gets out there in a case like this.
Perhaps they did what they should be doing, perhaps they supplied a run of the mill unit straight off the production line. Its the only way to achieve honesty.
@@gerrymcbride6429 Tue enough. I wouldn't have thought of that... honesty.
Hi Cam, I bet you wished you cut this one in half instead of the TCR? Of course you can still use it for props and use it in wind tunnels etc id have thought? But its no use to use use. A bit like the cars a stunt man would use, they look perfect but have a slight defect somewhere. This must be frustrating. Maybe look at the alu market? At least if something is undersized, a machinist can ream things out, or an australian hambini can repair it for you. Cheers. m
If Yoeleo wants to provide full transparency about this, they should provide the Root Cause Analysis (RCA, no pun intended) in the first place, if they will ever do this of course. Manufacturing and material isssue related aside, this definately indicates gaps in their QA processes that are reflected in their QC. Sampling plan, actual testing/verification methods,release of product and above all personnel training to name a few.
In another comment they simply blamed one single QC person (the person who did the actual QC on this frame) as being the entire problem. Yikes.
@@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv yeah, they haven't heard anything about management accountability I guess
To their credit, Yoeleo has agreed to replace my R12 frame under warranty. But they also told me it will take two weeks before they ship it. They said it "is being painted". We will see how long it really takes. In the warranty agreement one has to pay $150 to cover the shipping. I did it because what choice do I have? We will see how it goes.
Cam: the fact Yeleo sent you a stock frame without giving it the once over means they have confidence in their quality assurance systems. This is actually a good thing. The fact that you spotted the fault and returned the frame means that Yoleo can investigate and try and stop this happening in the future - also a good thing.
Give them a second chance. It's not like this hasn't happened with bigger western manufacturers - Canyon (aeroad carbon handlebar recall) and Specialised (headtube routing issues recall) - both of these issues could have had deadly consequences for riders.
It does NOT mean they have confidence in their QA systems. It MIGHT mean that. Conversely, it also might mean they have no QA system whatsoever. And unfortunately, that's the too-common theme not just in Chinese product manufacturing but in construction and civil engineering projects as well. There needs to be a fundamental overhaul of China's manufacturing mindset because so far, quality still ranks low/last on the hierarchy of priorities.
@@craigschuller Obviously I am inferring, this isn't the first time this has happened to a youtuber, it's a quite regular occurrence to TraceVelo when reviewing products from AliExpress. In the UK, Yoleo have the status of a mid-level Chinese manufacturer and you'd expect some processes to be in place, if they haven't or don't implement something then it will be commercial death by a thousand cuts, to paraphrase you.
Saw it in half?
With some of these Chinese companies whatever the product the QA is spotty. You would think though with higher priced items the QA would be more consistent. I like the brand as i am still runing a wheelset from Yoeleo. Often the draw for purchase from China is a cheaper price, and with this come the risk of inconsistent quality. However, most bike components can not be off in tolerances and we all do expect a quality product. Maybe this frame was an unlucky draw. Some folks may still be interested in what a build turns out like.
I wouldn’t abandon the project…
I recommend you guys get some go/no go gauges made for bikes. With all the different crank mounts…This could get expensive, but could reduce assembly and disassembly time wasted as in the Elves. A review of tolerances of the complete bike would be a better use of time upfront. This is the initial test of Manufacturing Quality. Ride Quality and Long Term Quality Review post 6000+ miles are #2 and #3. Most TH-cam channels neglect the latter. If a bike can’t make 6000-8000 miles in a year without a failure…What’s the point?
Also, this is a TH-cam channel doing a review. I’m very surprised at the lack of detail look from the manufacturer in sending the bike. However, I do like it. They didn’t pick a ripe cherry…It looks like they snagged one off the line…Backfired, but I like the confidence in a manufacturer doing this. Just proves QAs move to random sampling was too soon, and they needed to do 100% until manufacturing got the processes down. Simple QA guidelines…However, sort of standard operations from China…Quick, flip, and out the door. Less people touch it, the cheaper it is.
Go ahead Cam nad Neil, i want to see the frame ride experience from you and Neill, the duo project!
That's surprising that it would of pass QC. I have a Yoeleo R12 which I bought is 2022, with no problems to report.
Makes you wonder how many other frames were missed
All the stuff from China has issues. Based on own experience and reviews on TH-cam. Pay a little bit more for quality is my suggestion. Thanks for the review Cam.
Over the years it's the conclusion I've come to also
Punt the project.
I wouldve gone the blind test route1st, and if it was a success, then order a custom version.
Good luck! 🍀
If it is too good to be true then it is untrue.
The problem with most Chinese-origin brands that suddenly become flavor-of-the-month is QC. Precision is something most armchair experts overlooked. Tks Can for the insightful video 👍
I was going to buy from yeo leo but not any more
I believe in second chances, but not the third or fourth and so on…
Tough one. I reckon it’s hard to review it with integrity as the quality controls on the next bike they send will likely be greater than their standard. However, if that is stated at the start of any future video I think the project still has legs.
A mechanical engineer's perspective, someone who understands manufacturing, statistical process control, QC inspection etc.
As mentioned, 'sh_t happens' but it always happened due to lack of due dilligence. Question is, does it happen more with Chinese products? Possibly but can also happen with other name brands as well. So when purchasing, always look for a solid return policy. But there is much more and begs the question, is this oblong dropout hole only the tip of the iceberg or canary in the coal mine?
Me personally, I don't ride Chinese frames...or at least frames made with Chinese names at lower cost. Because it just isn't out of spec holes that are a consideration, its 'what other areas of scrutiny and due dilligence were missed' The exorbiant prices paid for companies like Specialized, Trek, BMC, Giant etc 'encompass' all the criteria that ensure a safer frame. Why is that? Its isn't moral correctness or even capability of name brand companies. Its liability. How does this manifest? Take Specialized. Specialized with the Tarmac has a history of crashing good riders...putting them on the deck. At 25 mph, you don't want to be that person. It happened a few years back with catastrophic fork failures. Some may remember sending their frame or fork back to Specialized and having it X-rayed. Some may remember Specialized changing the design of the expansion plug and making it longer such that it covered the ID of the carbon steerer down around the stem interface to the carbon steerer. And more recently? The SL7. The SL8 with ugly bump on the top of the head tube is the result of redesigning the cable retainer which also was snapping forks by beefy riders out of the saddle and maximum watts. So Specialized has put a lot of riders on the ground due to irresponsible designs AND lack of QC. QC practices costs money and subtract from profit but without QC, companies will pretty rapidly go out of business due to liability aka being sued by people hurt by the products they sell.
What happens if this frame in this video goes out of business? Nobody in America or even Australia will much care. China in the same factory where many bike frames are made will simply reinvent another Chinese company, cut corners and direct sell to consumers at a substantial cost savings once again. History repeating itself under a different name. As a consumer who cares about my body, in spite of shortcomings of companies like Specialized, I want the best due diligence. Its like a buying a cheap helmet. I want to wear a name brand helmet with all the certification who cares about the reputation of their company.
So I buy frames both new and sometimes used with very low mileage from 'name brand companies' only for the reasons mentioned.
As to voting, I don't really care what you decide because it doesn't really affect me other than proof positive of what engineers know about the difference between a no name frameset and a top tier frameset. In design and engineering and Quality Control, there is no free lunch. Even top companies screw up as noted above, sometimes 'profoundly' with dire consequences. But lessor companies without their liability at stake? One can only conclude its worse and not better including all the validation testing, including realtime off the production line behind the scenes to ensure even a frame manufactured nominally won't snap in half when a 200 lb rider is hammering out of the saddle in a sprint for all he's worth.
Thanks for your content.
PS. btw, there are instances when China produces a more reliable product than Europe or America. In the e-bike space, Bafang motors at lower cost are much more reliable than CYC. Bafang in constrast, cares about their reputation and it shows. CYC, a German company, have had copious field failures and still do with their latest products like the Photon. CYC also charges a lot more for their poorly designed motors.
Well put, I feel that's why Vitus partnered up with Bafang on the Mythique LT range...to keep the end product cheaper but also to get the F away from Shitmano and their lousy motors that are "disposable"/non rebuild jobs....
Regarding this frame, how do they make this throughaxle holes? If you use a drill for thinner metal for example the hole often gets not perfectly round. If you use a milling machine however the hole will get perfect, I would have expected they mill that.
I have a Silverback fat bike with throughaxles with an aluminium frame and the holes there are perfect. The whole bike however costs less than the frame in the video
Get a good frame from them and continue on with the project. It's nice seeing the hiccups along the way.
This isn’t bad for the brand. It’s an opportunity for them to showcase their level of support and how they resolve customer issues.
Even if they send him a perfect frame and it's great - then they are only performing 50% of the time. And a good customer service response for a huge TH-cam channel cannot be taken to mean they have good customer service for everyone else (in fact, there are other comments here even from smaller youtube creators complaining about their poor customer service)... I personally would also like to see him receive and test an ok frame because I am still curious about the ride quality of their frames.
@@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv also valid. I’m viewing from the perspective of things will always slip through QC at some point so I’m open to seeing how the company moves forward from this point on.
I agree with ray f, just end it and pick it up in a year or so with new, (hopefully) better frame
This could become a more interesting story with a follow up anonymous purchase of the same in the not so distant future🤟
What was demonstrated here, and what Cam perhaps missed in the video, was that this shows (at least with Yoeleo) that Cam is not getting a frame sent that is cherry picked. Invariably most reviews of frames and builds, especially from Chinese direct to consumer offerings, have folks accusing brands of ensuring only the very best is sent to a reviewer. And that the regular purchaser gets a much less well-made product.
Cam, you "didn't get" how it was sent to "a TH-cam reviewer", when the real question should be "I don't get how Yoeleo do not have a QC system in place that spots an error as obvious as this".
But what should be embraced is the fact that you are clearly not getting cherry picked products. At least not for this review.
We can be happy that this happend to Cam - Yoeleo might improve their Q standards if they want to deny their own mistake. But i do agree with you mate - the frameset should be ordered anonymously. We still remember Elves incident. Tailor-made frameset produced for the youtuber is not reflecting usual product characteristics. It just isn't representative and the test can't be fully trusted. So dear Cam - please make another test with the 'random' frameset!
Not worth your time, Neill’s time, or our time. Love the project concept tho. Next brand pls! Send this one to the carbon chop shop for further inspection.
I must say that it is a shame that Yeoleo's QC/QA procedures failed to pick up such a glaringly obvious fault... I have that exact same R12 frame and have had no such problems in the 18 months or so of ownership. As such I can't speak to any in-depth knowledge of customer relations beyond the initial purchase. That being said, you are in a bit of a bind. Knowing that it is a replacement, has Yeoleo now handpicked a frame? So, if you do review the frame is it really a true representation of the customer experience. I for one will be interested in seeing the review continue if for no other reason than to see Yeoleo's response to this situation. As at the end of the day that is the only important factor is this equation....
Hello, Mr. Nicholls, how can I be of assistance?
Firstly, let me say off the bat that your video's bear out that you appear to weigh up both sides of the evidence in relation to any question you ask in reviews... I appreciate that you are not a TH-cam shill ( I assume that many of your more discerning views do too). The incorporation of a "5 year old " albeit a very competent engineer in the form of Hambini in your prior review only serves to pay you credit.
In Quantum mechanics there is a concept known as the "Observational Effect". In essence by observing the experiment you are changing its behaviour..... I think that the only real way to review a product is to have the observer blinded. Since you can't be blinded but Yeoleo can, have someone else not traceable to your channel order a Yeoleo frame on your behalf. That way it's going to solve this bind.
Just a quick thought
Ouch, what a brutal own goal....Though you could have just got a thin strip of coke can and wrapped it around the NDS end of the thru axle as a shim to take up the slack lol..... Think I'll stick with Vitus....
The hole wasn´t oversized, it was oval. NOT easy to fix with a can. Rgr
Do a Titanium Frameset!
Two years ago, I bought a secondhand Merlin Extralight. The seatpost, Campagnolo Record carbon, was cracked lengthwise and I had a h'll to pull it out. I reamed the seattube to 27,2mm and there was no problem using a 27,2mm seattube. I had NO clue that Merlin asked for old 27mm seatposts. Lesson from this: 1. Even Western, highend, boutique brands make mistakes in their QC. Please read that again. 2. It´s NOT about the material, it´s about poor manufacturing and QC. Please read that again. Rgr
What if it was a bike that was already built? The average consumer wouldn't know till it came round to a service which could be months down the line.
Hi, in this case Yoeleo will definitely offer a new replacement frame. We are really regret about this case. But its a hard reminder for us to be more Detailed and careful.
Deffo worth continuing… need to give a company an opportunity to put things right..
I had a Polygon Helios way back in 2016 same issue. Gradually got worse
Let this be a lesson to you Neil....Stick with Rim Brakes 😅 😉 About whether or not to keep project alive? I would give it a pass but that's just me
Unfortunately Yoeleo diesn't have good reputation as a quality frameset. Few other workshop and reviews confirmed issues with stiffness, QC, and finish.
I purchased TIME 2023 frameset from Switzerland, (the best price in Europe, TIME is Made in Slovakia, and very soon they open a US manufacturing plant),
and have absolutely perfects frame, finish and technology available. Zero issues. Why bother?
Everybody simply cannot ditch out over 4000 Euros for a frameset. Never crossed your mind?? They should try boccia instead?? Rgr
IMO, the NDS hole was enlarged to solve a slight misaligned thru axle, rather than bin the whole frame.
Stories like this really take the gloss off the seemingly good value, buying a direct to consumer brand that has no local distributor. You have an Oz distributor, which will give you some sort of legal recourse so you have a level of protection. For those that don't, all I can suggest is to make sure you have your own 'Aaron' for a thorough pre build inspection and to use a Credit Card that will back you up if the product is faulty.
Buyer Beware.
Holey moley!
Please continue the project as it is very interesting! I would not use this brand, however. It's unacceptable to send out these frames with poor construction - we spend a lot of our hard earned money on these bikes!
So what 100% fault free brand would you shop?? Rgr
@@borano2031 no brand is 100% fault free of course but some have higher standards than others it seems
@@jasonkatz8 To determine that you have to asses the quote between totally made framesets and faulty number. Then you KNOW, anything else leads you to "seem" or "believe". That´s how rumours are made. Rgr
Well should be a No as already two strikes
God, what a failure. 😬 I have to ask the Czech distributor if he noticed something similar on YOELEO frames or if it's a rarity. Either way, this is inexcusable.
I'm starting to get the feeling that YOELEO doesn't make their own frames (they probably design them only), but a subcontractor manufacturers them. Does anyone know the details of this?
good job.... dont be like that man child hambini. Good taste Cam.
Reviews for products where the customers' main concern is the manufacturing quality of the product should never be done with samples submitted by the manufacturer and instead should always be anonymously bought by a third party. If the manufacturer isn't willing to do that, that tells us everything we need to know about their QA process.
Does it hold its speed well? Does it corner like it's on rails? How many watts does it save? Is it 8% stiffer? Oh wait - I was thinking I was on a different channel.