The breath meditation is actually a focus meditation. The muse is actually measuring how focused you are on your breath. You are obviously more focused during work than the meditation. It is misleading that they call it a calm score.
I was going to buy the Muse S but now I'm having second thoughts. I have the original Muse headband (Muse 1, I guess) and it works great, although I can't use it for sleep. I learnt TM many years ago (before it became so expensive) so I tested the Muse 1 headband with that, with no session running on my phone, ie. no music, narration, etc. I was using it purely as a monitoring device. The brain waves dropped a lot lower with TM than they did with the Muse meditations I have used so far. So I can verify that at least my headband seems to be able to read brain waves reasonably accurately. Not sure what's happened with Muse S.
Can you give some names / links to good sources of learning TM ? ("I learnt TM many years ago (before it became so expensive)". Hard to tell which might be the most effective. Perhaps Muse is good place to start...?
Excellent review! The only honest one I've seen so far! The most important thing to me is 'Single point focus' mastery during meditation, which, when you do it correctly you can achieve altered states of consciousness like your aches and body disappearing and you only feeling your mind rising up and down on a sea of consciousness while being perfectly mindful of the room, clock, and people around you, which is called Access Concentration and comes before a Jhana state. Jhana states, according to Buddhism, are states that grant super powers or activate your ability to talk with the spirit world, and eventually gain enlightenment as single point focus is the key to everything. Whether any of that is true or not, I DO love the Access concentration states I've achieved so far, so I will be measuring ALL EEG/Brain devices by whether I'll get better at getting back to that Access Concentration state again or not.
My main issue with Muse eeg biofeedback is that it doesn't give you readings of brainwaves. It only gives you a calm rating. Also, the company is secretive of the "algorithm" used to determine one's calm state. I still use my Muse 2 largely for motivation.
Thanks for the honest review. I have a thought as to why your scores came out the way they did. I am a major incident manager and that means that I deal with very stressful situations that have high impact and high engagement. I wear a fitbit charge 4 and have found that my heart rate drops as much as 6 beats per minute when I am deeply engaged in my job. This is usually a conference bridge with a decent number of technical and management stakehodlers. I guide the call and the resources to assist with resolution of what ever issue has brought us to the call. I have to listen to all the opinions and feedback, sometimes from people far smarter and more knowledgeable than I am LOL. I think that for me this has, over the years, forced my mind into a more zen like state that allows me to handle all the moving part of this type of conversation. I think this may be what you are going through or at least something like it. I am guessing here but if the typing you were doing was work related, you were focusing on a review and you were also pulling from your experience with product ABC. this, for you, may actually push you into a focused state, hence the score. If you are trying to test the device, i would suggest adding some activity that is more random eg, walking around your house and making a cup of your favorite beverage. this would be a less focused activity and may generate a more divergent score. Cheers.
I can relate to that experience, with my Garmin vivowatch I measured the same effect, when I am facilitating, leading meetings, surprisingly I observed that my heart rate goes significantly down. At first I thought it was the device's error, only to realise later that in that situation I am indeed, in flow and pretty much 'zen'.
Well, maybe that’s part of it too! The problem is it’s really difficult to tell with these devices. I’ve often amazed myself when I’m low on sleep and having difficulty with focus and recall how I’m somehow able to get into a different state of mind while hands on teaching medical students. When there are a lot of moving parts happening simultaneously - awareness of student attention and my own presentation, outside resources, which year I’m teaching and subject all seem to calm me down into a flow state similar to what you hear athletes experience. Some, like biathlon skiers who shoot and ski are able to accomplish this even with heart rates up in the 170s. They’re just used to focusing and breathing correctly during these skills. Still not convinced however lol. Too much suspicious stuff with reviews that alert my skepticism.
Can you tell me if it gives the grade of the state of the brain waves ( for e.g whether your brain is in alpha, beta, gamma or theta). Or does it even gives you brain frequency readings such as (4-8 Hz)[ Theta Waves]. I've heard that Theta Waves is the state of perfect stillness, where your mind activity is completely shut and is also considered the state of heightened joy. If not Muse, is there some different gadgets that can do similar thing as Muse but can also give the brain waves readings in frequency?
the recent software update shows you the brainwaves after the session is over, broken down by alpha, theta, delta, beta, and gamma. you can look at the five waves superimposed, or select any subset of the five or even a single wave, and it does quite nicely. you can see if the waves are coherent (peaks and valleys together, with a feeling of peacefulness) vs incoherent (all over the place, with a feeling of non-peace). I like this new feature very much.
The title of your TH-cam reads "Why I DON'T believe it's reading my brain!" I am not interested in meditation, but I am interested in recording sleep. It's hard or impossible for the user to be very confident about whether or when the Muse S (Gen 2) is reading his brain. It's a problem that the skin/electrode contact is a bit erratic. As I see it, there are four possible ways for the Muse S (Gen 2) to detect sleep/wake: by detecting and analysing: (1) EEG; (2) rapid eye EMG ; (3) head movement; (4) heart rate. The EEG and EMG are likely to be of poor quality because the electrode connection is poor. Head movement detection is probably not too bad. The heart rate detector seems a bit erratic as judged from the heartbeat icon. The Muse S (Gen 2) should integrate all four in order to detect sleep/wake. I have checked the sleep report of the Muse S (Gen 2) against video of my sleep, and against separate independent SpO2 and plethysographic and ECG heart rate recordings. My impression is that the Muse S (Gen 2) sleep record is relatively accurate, but that's no more than an educated guess. I can't examine its distinction between REM, light, and deep sleep with any accuracy. I am suspicious that the light/REM sleep distinction might be unreliable. I haven't recorded myself having any "deep sleep" with the Muse S (Gen 2).
I think all these people are accurate in stating that doing work can put you into a flow state thus increasing the score. One major thing I would like to add as well is that NASA uses these devices for monitoring when clinical grade eeg devices aren’t accessible, so there has to be some reliability.
Getting and, more importantly, KEEPING the sensors connecting properly is such a major PITA that it honestly ruins the whole device for me, especially the sleep tracking. Like you, I'm also not really convinced about the accuracy of the device's EEG readings, as I found that the feedback doesn't really correspond to my internal state that much. All in all, it seems like the tech for this type of device just isn't where it needs to be yet.
Thanks. Yours is the first review that didn’t seem like a not too subtle ad posing as dispensing an “honest review”. The free sleep app on my phone has the same issues. I often know I’ve been asleep and dreaming, but it will report me as having been “awake”. If it’s a longer sleep rather than a couple of hour nap, then it will immediately record going down into a deep sleep. Maybe there’s something about the time that’s important, or even the time of day, but I’m not sure what that would be. It will show variations in the sleep/awake curves and time in deep sleep, but there’s almost always 45 minutes to an hour difference in sleep and awake time while I only remembering waking once or twice to use the bathroom and then getting quickly back to sleep. I’ve never quite trusted it and it’s not picking up much snoring to explain the discrepancies either. So what DO these devices measure? Even an electroencephalogram needs multiple points of sticking attachments on the arms, legs and chest where arteries or heart valves are close to the surface. Is this even picking up electrical activity through the skull or is it just interpreting breathing and maybe sounds, maybe blood pressure and O2 uptake? It’s likely that we’re paying for interpreting software - algorithms as you said.
Thank you so much, I like to see the challenges with any tech I'm considering (as usual, it's in my basket as I research). This has been helpful for me to consider possible issues. I'm in the category that can still benefit, an established meditator. Now I just need to decide between the S and Muse 2... I wish I could find a video about the relative comfort... the S looks more comfortable, but your morning stigmata says otherwise! But I don't NEED the sleep part... decisions, doh!
Did the muse sensors on the sides pick up right away? I'm having trouble with the band detecting the side sensors... I'm assuming its because it's touching my hair and not directly my skin, any suggestions?
It would be very useful to compare it to the first Gen muse S that had very bad problems of durability, after just the first 2 months of use the textile sensors started to wear and tear up. Let's see if they improved on it.
Yeah i own the Muse S gen 1 and it doesn't work that well and i also agree that the neurofeedback signal is that accurate in comparison to traditional feedback. What to do you think is more accurate a Ocean sound or regular feedback which is a beeping noise i think you already know it's the beeping noise. Evidently your brain doesn't respond to the signal if it's over 500ms away i that's the reason why the Muse S isn't that accurate. Trying to find a better device or a cap that covers the whole brain and has over 21 sensors not just 4 like the Muse series has.
How long did you meditate? I usually have about 200 birds/hour, but I've been meditating for 30 years... so keep training your brain. You were probably trying too hard. The longterm benefits comes from the neurofeedback it provides. In otherwords, your reward centers are activated when you hear the birds which makes you want to recreate the same brainwaves to hear them again. Some of my sessions are nonstop 🐦 🦃 🦉 🐥 🐔 🦅 🐦
I work in Wallstreet and my Muse changed my life for positive I use Mendi neurofeedback and Muse meditations I also use Myndlift. It wont happen overnight you have to put the work
Okay in ur title u stated (Gen 2), but NO WHERE in the video u’r staying Muse S (Gen 2), so this is confusing! Please clarify if it’s Gen 1 or Gen 2! Plz n thank u
That indentation on your forehead...that's not good. And the gaps in the front module speaks more about poor quality than anything. Thanks for the review though.
Great review. I almost never pay attention to TH-cam ads, but as someone who's been sleeping deprived ever since 7th grade (I'm in my early 30s now), I saw the ad and was ready to spend $400 on this if it actually worked. Sadly, seems like it would just be a waste of money.
The breath meditation is actually a focus meditation. The muse is actually measuring how focused you are on your breath. You are obviously more focused during work than the meditation. It is misleading that they call it a calm score.
Good point. Better labelling could help.
You know this is a real review unlike most of the TH-cam reviews because there’s no affiliate link
I was going to buy the Muse S but now I'm having second thoughts. I have the original Muse headband (Muse 1, I guess) and it works great, although I can't use it for sleep.
I learnt TM many years ago (before it became so expensive) so I tested the Muse 1 headband with that, with no session running on my phone, ie. no music, narration, etc. I was using it purely as a monitoring device. The brain waves dropped a lot lower with TM than they did with the Muse meditations I have used so far. So I can verify that at least my headband seems to be able to read brain waves reasonably accurately. Not sure what's happened with Muse S.
Can you give some names / links to good sources of learning TM ? ("I learnt TM many years ago (before it became so expensive)". Hard to tell which might be the most effective. Perhaps Muse is good place to start...?
Excellent review! The only honest one I've seen so far!
The most important thing to me is 'Single point focus' mastery during meditation, which, when you do it correctly you can achieve altered states of consciousness like your aches and body disappearing and you only feeling your mind rising up and down on a sea of consciousness while being perfectly mindful of the room, clock, and people around you, which is called Access Concentration and comes before a Jhana state. Jhana states, according to Buddhism, are states that grant super powers or activate your ability to talk with the spirit world, and eventually gain enlightenment as single point focus is the key to everything.
Whether any of that is true or not, I DO love the Access concentration states I've achieved so far, so I will be measuring ALL EEG/Brain devices by whether I'll get better at getting back to that Access Concentration state again or not.
Thanks for the note, and the kind words. Great feedback here.
My main issue with Muse eeg biofeedback is that it doesn't give you readings of brainwaves. It only gives you a calm rating. Also, the company is secretive of the "algorithm" used to determine one's calm state. I still use my Muse 2 largely for motivation.
Great point. If you’re getting something out of the motivation then that can still be valuable.
There's a PC app to get raw data
@@Aashishkebabmuse monitor?
@@Aashishkebab name of the app?
Thanks for the honest review. I have a thought as to why your scores came out the way they did. I am a major incident manager and that means that I deal with very stressful situations that have high impact and high engagement. I wear a fitbit charge 4 and have found that my heart rate drops as much as 6 beats per minute when I am deeply engaged in my job. This is usually a conference bridge with a decent number of technical and management stakehodlers. I guide the call and the resources to assist with resolution of what ever issue has brought us to the call. I have to listen to all the opinions and feedback, sometimes from people far smarter and more knowledgeable than I am LOL. I think that for me this has, over the years, forced my mind into a more zen like state that allows me to handle all the moving part of this type of conversation. I think this may be what you are going through or at least something like it.
I am guessing here but if the typing you were doing was work related, you were focusing on a review and you were also pulling from your experience with product ABC. this, for you, may actually push you into a focused state, hence the score. If you are trying to test the device, i would suggest adding some activity that is more random eg, walking around your house and making a cup of your favorite beverage. this would be a less focused activity and may generate a more divergent score.
Cheers.
Thanks for the info Roger!
thats an excellent idea.
I can relate to that experience, with my Garmin vivowatch I measured the same effect, when I am facilitating, leading meetings, surprisingly I observed that my heart rate goes significantly down.
At first I thought it was the device's error, only to realise later that in that situation I am indeed, in flow and pretty much 'zen'.
Well, maybe that’s part of it too! The problem is it’s really difficult to tell with these devices.
I’ve often amazed myself when I’m low on sleep and having difficulty with focus and recall how I’m somehow able to get into a different state of mind while hands on teaching medical students. When there are a lot of moving parts happening simultaneously - awareness of student attention and my own presentation, outside resources, which year I’m teaching and subject all seem to calm me down into a flow state similar to what you hear athletes experience. Some, like biathlon skiers who shoot and ski are able to accomplish this even with heart rates up in the 170s. They’re just used to focusing and breathing correctly during these skills.
Still not convinced however lol. Too much suspicious stuff with reviews that alert my skepticism.
Can you tell me if it gives the grade of the state of the brain waves ( for e.g whether your brain is in alpha, beta, gamma or theta). Or does it even gives you brain frequency readings such as (4-8 Hz)[ Theta Waves]. I've heard that Theta Waves is the state of perfect stillness, where your mind activity is completely shut and is also considered the state of heightened joy. If not Muse, is there some different gadgets that can do similar thing as Muse but can also give the brain waves readings in frequency?
the recent software update shows you the brainwaves after the session is over, broken down by alpha, theta, delta, beta, and gamma. you can look at the five waves superimposed, or select any subset of the five or even a single wave, and it does quite nicely. you can see if the waves are coherent (peaks and valleys together, with a feeling of peacefulness) vs incoherent (all over the place, with a feeling of non-peace). I like this new feature very much.
The title of your TH-cam reads "Why I DON'T believe it's reading my brain!" I am not interested in meditation, but I am interested in recording sleep. It's hard or impossible for the user to be very confident about whether or when the Muse S (Gen 2) is reading his brain. It's a problem that the skin/electrode contact is a bit erratic. As I see it, there are four possible ways for the Muse S (Gen 2) to detect sleep/wake: by detecting and analysing: (1) EEG; (2) rapid eye EMG ; (3) head movement; (4) heart rate. The EEG and EMG are likely to be of poor quality because the electrode connection is poor. Head movement detection is probably not too bad. The heart rate detector seems a bit erratic as judged from the heartbeat icon. The Muse S (Gen 2) should integrate all four in order to detect sleep/wake. I have checked the sleep report of the Muse S (Gen 2) against video of my sleep, and against separate independent SpO2 and plethysographic and ECG heart rate recordings. My impression is that the Muse S (Gen 2) sleep record is relatively accurate, but that's no more than an educated guess. I can't examine its distinction between REM, light, and deep sleep with any accuracy. I am suspicious that the light/REM sleep distinction might be unreliable. I haven't recorded myself having any "deep sleep" with the Muse S (Gen 2).
I think all these people are accurate in stating that doing work can put you into a flow state thus increasing the score. One major thing I would like to add as well is that NASA uses these devices for monitoring when clinical grade eeg devices aren’t accessible, so there has to be some reliability.
Getting and, more importantly, KEEPING the sensors connecting properly is such a major PITA that it honestly ruins the whole device for me, especially the sleep tracking. Like you, I'm also not really convinced about the accuracy of the device's EEG readings, as I found that the feedback doesn't really correspond to my internal state that much. All in all, it seems like the tech for this type of device just isn't where it needs to be yet.
I agree 100%, Christopher. Thanks for adding your comments here.
Thanks. Yours is the first review that didn’t seem like a not too subtle ad posing as dispensing an “honest review”. The free sleep app on my phone has the same issues. I often know I’ve been asleep and dreaming, but it will report me as having been “awake”. If it’s a longer sleep rather than a couple of hour nap, then it will immediately record going down into a deep sleep. Maybe there’s something about the time that’s important, or even the time of day, but I’m not sure what that would be. It will show variations in the sleep/awake curves and time in deep sleep, but there’s almost always 45 minutes to an hour difference in sleep and awake time while I only remembering waking once or twice to use the bathroom and then getting quickly back to sleep.
I’ve never quite trusted it and it’s not picking up much snoring to explain the discrepancies either. So what DO these devices measure? Even an electroencephalogram needs multiple points of sticking attachments on the arms, legs and chest where arteries or heart valves are close to the surface. Is this even picking up electrical activity through the skull or is it just interpreting breathing and maybe sounds, maybe blood pressure and O2 uptake? It’s likely that we’re paying for interpreting software - algorithms as you said.
Thank you, and thanks for sharing your experiences.
I'd be curious if you are stressed while working or calm. Focusing on work vs focusing on breathing could be more similar than we realize
Great point! I’m generally pretty chill all the time… I wonder if I could engineer my response in a different way?
Thanks for the review, and the end credit sequence (looks like you have a 4 legged stress reliever).
Haha, for sure!
Is there any good portable neurofeedback?
Thank you so much, I like to see the challenges with any tech I'm considering (as usual, it's in my basket as I research). This has been helpful for me to consider possible issues. I'm in the category that can still benefit, an established meditator. Now I just need to decide between the S and Muse 2... I wish I could find a video about the relative comfort... the S looks more comfortable, but your morning stigmata says otherwise! But I don't NEED the sleep part... decisions, doh!
Glad it was helpful!
Did the muse sensors on the sides pick up right away? I'm having trouble with the band detecting the side sensors... I'm assuming its because it's touching my hair and not directly my skin, any suggestions?
I had the same issue it’s finicky.
I just got mine, and I plan to shave the sides of my head. 😂😂😂
It would be very useful to compare it to the first Gen muse S that had very bad problems of durability, after just the first 2 months of use the textile sensors started to wear and tear up.
Let's see if they improved on it.
Very interesting but I'll hold off for a couple years maybe gen3 or 4 will fix those issues.
Good call.
Yeah i own the Muse S gen 1 and it doesn't work that well and i also agree that the neurofeedback signal is that accurate in comparison to traditional feedback. What to do you think is more accurate a Ocean sound or regular feedback which is a beeping noise i think you already know it's the beeping noise. Evidently your brain doesn't respond to the signal if it's over 500ms away i that's the reason why the Muse S isn't that accurate. Trying to find a better device or a cap that covers the whole brain and has over 21 sensors not just 4 like the Muse series has.
Good point, thank you!
Seems like there are more problems with the Muse S vs Muse 2.
This is making me feel like my meditation app + comfy noise canceling headphones is enough...
That’s my preference also…
@@ErinLawrenceTV Sometimes you want to get fancy and you realize the basics are enough.
Thanks for the review Erin.
Sure thing Ron!
Good information. Thank You for your honest review. I wont definitely invest in something so expensive like that if it has all negative side.
How long did you meditate? I usually have about 200 birds/hour, but I've been meditating for 30 years... so keep training your brain. You were probably trying too hard. The longterm benefits comes from the neurofeedback it provides. In otherwords, your reward centers are activated when you hear the birds which makes you want to recreate the same brainwaves to hear them again. Some of my sessions are nonstop 🐦 🦃 🦉 🐥 🐔 🦅 🐦
IS MENDI BETTER THAN THE MUSeTHEN PLEASE HELP I NEED TO KNOW TO HELP WITH MY ADICTION
That black dot on your wall is very distracting but I’m now glad its not on dirt on my iPad Pro 😂❤
Thanks for the honest review, this is too much of a hassle.
I'm holding out for that mystical "zending" machine!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks Erin you saved me £250 on a maybe, won't bother with it and look somewhere else.
Glad I could help!
The device works its just uncomfortable
@@ErinLawrenceTV Yeah, thanks for the very fair and honest review. Wish they were all like you here on YT.
Great review!!
I work in Wallstreet and my Muse changed my life for positive I use Mendi neurofeedback and Muse meditations I also use Myndlift. It wont happen overnight you have to put the work
Have you tried the Mendi?
No. Tell me about it.
Okay in ur title u stated (Gen 2), but NO WHERE in the video u’r staying Muse S (Gen 2), so this is confusing! Please clarify if it’s Gen 1 or Gen 2! Plz n thank u
Thank you for this thoughtful, multi faceted and critical review.
Thank you so much Tim!
I sent mine back as I was getting over 90% accuracy from day 1. So it was useless.
That indentation on your forehead...that's not good. And the gaps in the front module speaks more about poor quality than anything. Thanks for the review though.
Great review. I almost never pay attention to TH-cam ads, but as someone who's been sleeping deprived ever since 7th grade (I'm in my early 30s now), I saw the ad and was ready to spend $400 on this if it actually worked. Sadly, seems like it would just be a waste of money.
Glad I could help!
was cons the S but your vid turned me off