The St Etienne Mle 1907: France's Domestic Heavy Machine Gun
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2017
- When the French first began testing machine guns in the late 1890s, they were one of the few countries that did not purchase quantities of Maxim guns. One of the reasons was that in France’s North African colonies, transporting water for guns was considered an unnecessary liability. Instead, France purchased a number of air-cooled Hotchkiss machine guns for its colonial forces. For the French Metropolitan Army, it wanted a gun designed and produced by its own arsenal system. And so, the Puteaux Arsenal developed the Modele 1905 gun.
This was a gas trap style of action , pulling an operating forward with each shot. The gun was adopted and put into service, and as with every other military user of gas trap guns, the French quickly found the system to be seriously flawed. The St Etienne Arsenal set about improving it, and came up with the Modele 1907, which retained the forward-moving operating rod but used a gas piston instead of a gas trap. This would be the machine gun which France would enter World War One with, and more than 40,000 would be manufactured by 1917.
The Modele 1907 St Etienne gun is a magnificently Victorian machine gun, with a downright Swiss-like rack and pinion system running its action. It would have been truly at home on a Napoleonic battlefield - but not a World War One battlefield. The gun was not well suited to the muddy hell of trench warfare, despite its beautiful machining and quality. Looking for both a lot more guns and also a more field-reliable system, the French began buying a great many Modele 1914 Hotchkiss machine guns, and they would replace the Modele 1907 by the end of the war.
One cannot fault the French for this change, and yet it still seems sad to see such a gorgeous piece of metal fabrication be sidelined - complete with its hydraulically adjustable rate of fire, its fine toothed feed spool, its sights with the spring and lever system to accommodate heat-induced change of aim and its magnificently extravagant flash hider.
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In the automotive world I've heard it said "The French don't copy anyone. and no one copies the French." Apparently this also extends to firearms.
canicheenrage hon hon hon
Ever hear of smokeless powder????
Mike 32haha
I think it was known before the adopted it
That is a brilliant way to put it, havelock bingley. All the way up until World War 2, the French put more emphasis on a weapon being French than on being effective, with frequently dire results.
True...😊😉
Damn the front of this gun looks like an art deco locomotive.
Res Why does it also remind me of Boba Fett???
I see a train.
Bécauz eetz French gun, oui.
My first thought as well...looks really cool. Cheers ^-^
The League of Extraordinary Machine Guns
The front is a train, the piston cycles backwards, and there's a gear system in it.
Ladies and gentlemen, this might just be the single most French gun ever made. The only thing you could add would be a adaptor for firing rifle grenades
Fien Don't forget the hydraulic rate reducer that takes it down to 8 rpms.
They'd probably develop a metal strip system to fire rifle grenades fully automatically
Statusinator they'd get it to work too. Completely pointless and overcomplicated, but it would function through sheer nationalistic pride.
Where is the bayonet?
* Rifle Mortars
That "thermal expansion sight compensating rod" is insane. Only the French would come up with something so overly complicated yet impressive in their firearms. Well, maybe the Swiss!
The swiss or the germans wouldn't have had to design that rod as they would have thought of it in the first place and concocted some weird sight mount that you can swap onto different barrels.
dchil15 exactly. Except the Swiss version would've added roughly 105,000 hours of complex machining operations, exotic alloys, and careful heat treating. All resulting in the best weapon no one can afford.
lols
Alain Portant *simplified*
and useless
Naturally, being French, the tripod can be converted into a bicycle thanks to the handy bicycle-style seat they provided on the rear tripod leg.
*ring ring*
Hey that'd be a Dutch design feature, thankyouverymuch.
Uranprojekt built in retreat bike
Well, the Swiss dragged Tb-41 25mm automatic cannons around with bicycles, so why not.
Laird Cummings
Who wouldn't?
as a french , i find this machine gun way too simple.There's surely a way to complexify it more.
What's the point of you are just gonna give it away if you surrender
If it's complicated enough feeble minded foreigners might leave it on the ground, you've got to think ahead.
I thought that as a French guy you would notice Ian's T-shirt and the nod he gives in remembrance of all the French soldiers that died in those battles.
bonus points for making the word 'complex' more complex :)
It should be foldable like the mat 49.
From the front it reminds me of imperial warships from Warhammer 40k
i.imgur.com/lkNQOyV.jpg
Ramming speed with an emplaced MG? The commissar is impressed with your zeal
+Song in Silence We shall run them over with the entire bunker!
AVEC LE XENOS
*_J'ATTAAAAAAQUE!!_*
Yeah or a steam train
Oh my god, I had to pause for a moment when the door was opened at 7:30, what an absolutely beautiful window of access to the moving parts. I repair mechanical cameras, and this reminds of how beautiful it was to lift the body in one piece off a leica m3 and see the whole skeleton laid bare. I'll never grow tired of well-crafted and sometimes eccentric mechanical systems.
K. Martin I do the same and this reminded me of removing the advance side panel on a rolleiflex. I'll never foget the feeling. For those who have no idea what we're babbling about, search 'advance side rolleiflex' on google, its a beautiful view for anyone here mechanically inclined.
That search was worth it.
I like guns like i like, cameras, or watches. The precision and design is soo neat, and i'm a Nordic-country-liberal want-to-be: and i'm steal all about it. MORE!! :D
It's like they were building a cuckoo clock
Easy to just use a paintbrush with oil, then, to keep the weapon running?
Dirt? In war? Good Lord! Have the men tidy that up, I want this battlefield tip-top!
I'll get my trench broom.
Notice- the war has been postponed so soldiers can police call the battlefield.
I want to be able to eat off this dirt!
I will not fire a shot until I can see my reflection off of every blade of grass.
I call it the Iron Giant. No, not because of the weight or size, but because of that enormous chin!
c h i n k i l l a
(The kind of joke leno battlebot from the comedy central battlebots)
Dakka dakka dakka
Shouldn't it be the Bruce Campbell then?
At first I had no idea what you were talking about...then I moved the messenger bubble from left of screen. Oh boy.
S U P E R M A N . . .
I can confirm that Romanian military had them in WWI. I grandfather told me stories about it.
He was a watchmaker. He really liked it from mechanical POV, but was a nightmare to maintain it. Was working great in fortified positions but not in the tranches.
Oh that's just so nice ! That's cliché swiss :P
The French: “Carrying extra water into battle is impractical.”
Also the French: *Dress their army in pale blue and red combat uniforms.*
water cleanliness was such a problem in WWI that some isolated fort/ front in the mountains had cask of wine delivered instead of water because it wouldn't turn bad
also water supplies in the Sahara desert are kinda precious
while going to WWI french armies had a kinda Napoleonic doctrines in which surprise and concealment is far less important than mobility and organisation, hence why the red pants didn't matter that much, they dropped the red pants in the 1915 uniform when the war transformed into a position war. and the jacket turned grey/brown with the mud and water.
so their uniform made sense in a way
Rémi Marchese didnt it turn into a blueish „Horizontblau“?
@@ferdblu1946 well it was bluish grey when new, which it didn't stay for long
Cethoss "bleu horizon", I believe the reasoning behind it was that if a troop was marching on a hill or a crest it would be hard to silhouette them against grey blue horizon. It is possible that one day on one occasion it might have worked but it was a stupid idea like French bureaucracy has unsurpassed capacity for pumping out!!
Youpi Youpla Here we call it 'bling'
That thing is so French it makes my moustache grow. Totally awesome.
Tuomas Raatikainen made my baguette grow
Now I can appreciate the correct term “machine”gun. The entire works looks as much like a metal lathe, as well as a weapon.
Sewing Machine…? Wants regular cleaning and oiling….
Ian is really happy that he is going over a early French heavy machine gun.His francophile senses are tingling.
Colt McCurry Well he goes shooting with a French expat that likes to crossdress as 2B from Nier: Automata at the range sometimes so at least he doesnt hate us.
It's probably a Good guess that he put a bid on this gun.
Needs a transparent side door, would be really cool to see that firing like that
Yeah with some cool RGB
@@corsairsofnarshaddaa It would look unironically rad
From an engineering standpoint....this is by far the BEST video you have ever put out! Absolutely unique and fascinating!
Have you seen his video on the Russian AN-94?
TOTALLY forgot about the AN-94 video! It also incredibly impressive engineering, I have to go re-watch now!
Exactly my thought! And when I heard about the gas trapped Pluto prototype I was like "What?A Machine gun size Abakan design 90 years before the Nikonov assault rifle?" Crazy shit incoming!
And despite the fact they had the good idea to leave that concept behind, the front sight system alone is such a thermodynamics equation by itself - Chemical engineer here- awesome.
The barrel dress was by Jean-Paul Gaultier, from his spring collection.
Brilliant
Someone needs to reproduce that flashhider for the ar15.
lmao
And for pump action 12 gauge and the 3 Line rifle. 😊
I'd buy 1 just solely based on looks that's f***ing awesome
With an FH like that you could pin it to a 7.5" barreled 'pistol' and it would legally become a rifle! 😂
illegal in the state of California for assault weapon purposes
When you first showed the gas piston system close up, I thought "huh, that sight looks a bit neat. Is that a spring?". When you showed that sight mechanism, all i thought was "*These Frenchies and their damn baguette space magic*"
I thought the iron bar was to skewer the meat pieces so they can roast over a barrel nicely
Wonderful, in all senses of the word. I recall reading a quote from an International Brigade member in Spain, who said that the gun was a marvelous collection of clockwork wheels and gears that no one really understood and that (at least in their hands) never really worked well.
It’s just mind boggling to think that someone invisioned all these rotating sliding moving parts in their mind then implement them into practice and it all come together to fire at that high rate. PURE GENIUS
This gun is the perfect trifecta of weird:
* An early version of it's general type (heavy MG),
* National pride -> We'll build our own damn gun, and
* Annoying patents that needed to be designed around.
Yup, three ingredients to make wonderfully weird and interesting guns.
BTW, there's a typo in your comment. The fifth word in the second line should be "its".
Replace "MG" with "Service Rifle" and you got the Springfield M1903
littlegrabbiZZ9PZA yeah I don't understand that if you are the government that issues patents and you're making guns for your military and you want your own government Gun Works or whatever to make the guns for your military why wouldn't the government just use whatever they wanted whether it was patented or not like how you can own a piece of property but if the government decides they want to put a road through there they're going to say eminent domain and put the road through there whether you like it or not
+Canaan Thats really bad for business in the long term Id imagine. Also Eminent domain mist be discally compensated.
Alex Winebrenner the US payed Mauser for the rights to produce their “Mauser”.
I’m super late to the party but holy shit this gun is fascinating from a mechanical standpoint. Having the machine tools to make these in 1907 is amazing. The whole thing is gloriously complex.
Wow, this is an exceptionally complicated weapon, my god.
Steve LaForce j’avoue
Absolutely nothing complicated in it.
ikr, don't ya just love it
Czorńy Lisek in comparison to its contemporaries... it is. It was even thought to be too complicated at the time. However, the the accuracy and efficiency of the assemply proved that despite this... it was an effective machine.
Compared to things like the AN-94 or the Model 30, it’s nothing too crazy
There's only one thing worse than Swiss matchmaker levels of engineering: Swiss matchmaker levels of engineering, as done by the French.
*watchmaker.
*matchwaker
............I believe the word you were going for was "watchmaker". The Swiss are not known for their online dating services.
*mechwarrior
Love the leather bicycle seat xD
True hahahahahaha
I'm suprised they didn't put wheels and a chain on it!
Add a basket and bell as well.
*DING DING MOTHERFUCKERS!!*
DivingHawker hahhahahaahha
Thank you Ian for this thorough description! I was born and raised in Saint-Etienne so naturally I can't be prouder when I see the fine workmanship and that went into the design and production of this machine gun. Fun fact: during the French revolution, Saint-Etienne was actually renamed Armeville ("Armsville" in English) for a while, which says a lot about the historical importance of the military industry in that city. But despite that, and knowing that my hometown was the birthplace of the FAMAS and other MAS rifles that preceded it, I had no idea that SO MANY types of rifles and machine guns were designed and made there... Also Saint-Etienne steelworks made a lot large caliber guns, howitzers, navy guns and so on, and they still do. I actually worked in one of them for a summer job when I was young.
Salutations aux Stéphanois !
Oui c'est une magnifique machinerie, même si dans les commentaires les Ricains se moquent ("Les Français ne copient personne mais personne le copie les Français"…).
Mais c'était une époque où les Français partaient à la conquête du monde grâce à ces machines fabriquées à Saint-Étienne (et quelques autres endroits), ça fait mal au cœur rien que d'y penser en ce temps de "liquidation" post-nationale :(
Like a deadly pocketwatch, complicated and timely.
That’s some lovely arcane engineering inside.
Wow. This seems like a masterpiece of craftmanship. Forget about various firing rates, adjustable height, and avoiding patents; "Want anti-aircraft mode? We have that covered; just turn the gun around and reattach it".
Although this may be considered "overdesigned" by many, the simple fact is that it is marvelously well manufactured metalwork despite not being practical in any sense regarding firearms.
I consider it a work of art more than anything, but oh, what a work of art it is indeed.
Theres not even a single video of St Etienne shooting on the internet
Do someting about it
I second this notion
it is so bad that no one wants to buy it... save your money for some sturmgewehr!
@Dan The Man Sturmgewehr
Tim why buy a sturmgewehr when you can buy the obviously superior AK-47
Maxwell Kattner why buy an ak when you could buy this thing
This is the machine gun we saw a lot time ago isn't it?
The other one was inevitably broken
Never thought I'd see an entire one
Maxduty97 It is, I was really excited when I saw this pop up in my sub feed!
The amount of ingenuity and engineering that went into this machine gun is incredible. It is truly a piece of art.
The French absolutely rock at Steampunk!!!
Am I the only one who wants to see a picture of this mounted on a vehicle or an early tank?
Would have to be modified to belt feed.
Hannibal EnemyofRome, in the video Ian states that they made 300 rd cloth belts
They used the Hochkiss Portative Mk1 in their tanks.
I agree. That would solve many of the 'cleanliness' issues; especially mounted in aircraft. :) Yes, it would definitely need a 300-round belt.
A technical using that and an old Chevy pickup!
"its steampunk"
does it have gears?
"here's the gear in the reciever...and the gear in the loader"
its steampunk alright
I'm from Saint Etienne, and I like the simplicity of this machine gun !! :D
despite the complexity of the mechanism I can't help but admire the elegance of it, there's so much going on it's easy for something to fail, but everything inside is set up so logically and simply with large simple parts any idiot in the trench could pop it open find what went wrong and fix it
I should ...am instructed...to clean-up the dishes but got caught binge watching this channel.. I am so impressed by Ians knowledge that he will absolutely sure can get a job as a professor at westpoint.
I think this has been the most interesting HMG I've ever seen.
Real life steampunk gun.
And he said it right after I typed that...
Same thing happened to me, but I was texting a friend about the episode!
+Michael Eversberg II
Wrong. Dieselpunk denotes the aesthetic being reminiscent to the interwar period. This was made in 1907. It's steampunk
But it's way closer to the interwar period than it is to the (typical) Victorian era of steampunk. Not to mention that steampunk is usually about non-war scenarios, wheras dieselpunk almost explicitly focused on these kinds of convoluted war machines. It's a wobbly line, but it's way more dieselpunk than steampunk. If it had pressure gauges and an 'aether' meter, then it would be steampunk, for sure.
@@stephenborntrager6542 the Edwardian era is also lumped in steampunk.
French guns from the first world war are my absolute favourite ones, so cool and weird, love 'em!
From the forward action gas piston, to the side access door for the Rupe-Goldberg internals, I love it! The metal rod thermal self-adjusting front sight and the vented and funneled flash suppressor are my favorite features! This would be my center piece of my gun collection.
Another episode of Ian being obsessed with French Weaponry. 'Tis a good day.
what a crazy mechanism! gilded-age automatic firearms were super cool in a rube-goldberg-machine kind of way
This would look great mounted on my steam powered dinosaur.
I just want to say, that apart from beeing very, very interesting videos of ''forgotten guns'', I very much appreciate your excellent english! Me, beeing from Sweden, have no problems understanding all of the interesting historical knowledge you give us. A big, big ''thank you'' for that!... /BoH
That front sight compensation rod is amazing. How many partial differential equations were used to figure that thing out!
My guess is : trial and error is quicker.
No hip shooting with this one.
:- |
Strohmann Arnold could do it lmao jk jk....I don't know how the two man crew dealt with this gun on a daily basis I'd rather a bolt action lol
Justavious, please don't use "rather" as a verb. "I'd prefer a bolt action" or "I'd rather pick up a bolt action" both sound so much better.
Why not? This is still 7,5 mm right? So as long as you can lift it, it shouldnt be a problem to hipfire.
if it was in Call of Duty it would be duel wielded with drum magazines, suppressors and laser ACOG reflex sights
not with that attitude
Crazy, strange or completely unexpected solutions for engineering problems ... welcome to the world of French engineering. Gotta love it! :)
That firearm is nothing less than an exquisite piece of art, belongs in the Louvre!
Fantastic example from the earliest days of MGs. Very good, very good indeed. You never cease to amaze with the selection of rare weapons. Very happy to have found this channel.
Wouldn't surprise me, given Ian's penchant for french arms, that this is one of the reasons he is selling his Vickers. A rather suitable replacement.
Schmidt Rubin yes, but it's French.
Simon White yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
Schmidt Rubin indeed, I've seen pictures of Maxims in action in both Syria and the current Ukraine conflict.
I was thinking that, too. However, I bet he wants something he can get out and shoot without too much of a hassle. . . like a Schwerer Gustav!
As gold as the video in itself is as usual from Ian (and I'm not even a firearms enthusiast!), the comment section thoroughly made my day. Well done, internet. Well done.
I'd love to see this shooting at its slowest RoF setting
Hopit same.
dak.....ka....dak.....ka.....dak.....ka
Dis iz not enuf DAKKA
If Ian did this in French it would have been an excellent tutorial for French Army recruits. Impressive how you do these treatments so thoroughly and so often.
Wow, steampunk indeed! This thing is awesome. Seen one in France on static display but the innards are incredibly beautiful.
A mechanics dream....
Great vid Ian, thx mate!
It is palpable here how much Ian LOVES French-made arms :)
"Aux armes, les citoyens !!…"
I come from the city of manufacturing of this weapon ( Saint-Étienne), Very proud to see that my city is known through the world
best 30 minutes i've spent in a long time - thank you!
Didn't we see a bullet ridden version a while back??
We did, and actually now that I know how easy to open up it is, I kinda would have loved Ian to open that one up and see exactly what grits those holes went through.
So educating and entertaining at the same time, its a pleasure to watch. Thank you Ian!
What a beautiful overcomplicated piece of machined steel!
Quel magnifique!
Nobody warned me this video would feature *strong pornography*
That guns chin is so well-defined and hot
I just 3d modeled this for a D&D game. Thanks for the history, and great footage :D
How was the game?
Might be my favourite video of all of fw. Awesomely enthusiastic detail from Ian, and awesome weird gun.
That is a truly beautiful machine! Thank you for showing it to us :)
That is just one of the most awesome systems I've ever seen. I love this type of stuff.
I didn't know that they had luminous sights back then. That's pretty interesting.
That sight system is crazy. I wonder how much of a problem the two different metals expansion really was.
Steampunk. That's a pretty apt description of this intriguing monster.
The front is definitely more Art Deco though
Wonderful show and tell! Never heard of this HMG before. Reminds me of an overgrown sewing machine with all those working parts.
I ran across this channel recently and am enjoying it very much. It caters to two of my interests: Warfare and antiques. Your expertise is quite appreciated. Thankyou.
This channel made me fall in love with all sorts of weird and older guns that bored me before
The damascene video started it all
Really love the channel Ian
You’re a fantastic educator
But can you conceal carry it?!
Jeff England yes, but only if you're 3 children in a trenchcoat and a big, floppy hat.
and on the plus side, if you are those 3 children, you already have a full gunnery crew.
But can it run doom?
The tripod is foldable so I'd say yes, go for it.
If you're creative enough and don't mind walking funny, it can be concealed anywhere
26:00 Welcome to Tripod-Yoga. My name is Mr. McCollum.
I don't thumbs up enough. You're best on your own. You so know your shit. In old blighty we have no access to guns like you. Believe me, there are millions who what awe. Seen your hair for ages. Bravo Yankee. Jimxxxxx
That is the coolest combination antique analogue computer/ car jack / drawbridge-raiser and Iron Bird Decoy .... I have ever seen. Thank you France !!!!!
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen type gun.
Are you going to change your Vickers for this ?????, Thats really cool !!!!!
That was exactly my thoughts too, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he buys it, nor would I blame him.
I've always been curious about these having only seen them in B&W Photos.
Great episode Ian!
As an ex engineer , I became more and more impressed the longer I watched the clip . It is like a giant Swiss watch in how all the seemingly confusing parts work smoothly together .
The amount of thought and planning that went into it is amazing 🙂
It's so French. Well designed with interesting features, but weird as hell and probably not the best at what it does.
Very steampunk and I love it.
Dude, I love you Ian. You’re literally the best.
Merci mon ami pour ce documentaire intéressant🟦⬜🟥
Ian, in the off chance you should happen to read this comment, I'd like to offer a suggestion for a video you could make: If you could take designs from all the machine guns you have researched and inspected, what would your perfect machine gun look like?
Interesting piece of gun art
Great video. The detail you went into with the mechanical parts was great.
Super cool!!! Thanks for another excellent video Ian!!!!
Now it's time for
*_FRENCHIE STEAMPUNK MAGIK_*
Once upon of time, the French "ingénieurs" where the best! That's been a long time.... 😎🇫🇷😇
What an awesome machinegun. I would love to have it just for the mechanics of it. It is awesome. Thanks for sharing it with us.
That muzzle break looks like a cow-catcher from a train haha! Great video Ian!
What a wonderfully mechanism. I mean, it is WAY to complicated, but wow it is like looking at well crafted clock works. Also that tripod is great. It gives you all kinds of options. By the way, I think you did a video on this machine gun before, but that one was shot many times and not in good condition because of it.
Now i know why its called a Machine gun....i have seen assembly lines less complicated then this
Another great videos! And who doesn't love vintage over-complicated art deco machine gun!
That's one of the most interesting guns I've ever seen.
There are so many cool thing going on here.
Not only the wacky internal mechanism, but also that automatic sight adjustment, the rate reducer and that funky flashhider.
Thanks for the insight Ian!
I recon, the grand-grandchildren of the engineers who developed this system are now building cars for peugeot and renault :)
I just came up with a simple but yet effective automatic strip feed solution... I can't imagine why it wasn't developed by Hotchkiss and similar can companies...
It's like this:
Ammo box with an side-opening on the bottom, the ammo strip leaves there and enters the machine- gun.
When the end of the strip is just in the box, a " lip" at the end hooks in a slot, which is at the front of the next strip, that drops down by gravity from the ammo box...
So the new strip is " pulled " by the old strip....
The ammobox, by the way, must be hooked up to the gun...
The only appropriate description for this level of weirdness is French.
said the guy who don't know shit about france .
19:30 I have a photo in a book on machine guns ( by Terry Gander) of a 1907 St Etienne with the same muzzle attachment. It says it was a fortification weapon and the attachment was to deflect exhaust gases away from the interior of the casemate.
So enjoyable to watch your vids.