BoJack’s relationships with woman reminded BoJack’s issues with roles of women and girls remind me of the way how many people can only box women into four groups mothers, daughters, desirable and undesirables due to how they were raised and taught to interact with women and girls. They can’t see women and girls as fully fleshed out individuals like the men in their lives and can only view and be around them if they’re boxed in as such. With many they also move them into different boxes if they can’t comprehend that the women and girls are more than their initial category they arbitrarily assigned them.
He doesn't have female friends without any previous or future sexyal involvement Like: PC - dated years Diane - kissed (glad they ended up platonic) Sarah lynn - slept with Anna - slept with All women he crosses that boundary with
FR that was the hardest part of the end for me. He could have had a great ending, but he chose to fall back into his old patterns and do the second interview. Granted, it probably gave closure to the others he hurt like Gina, Chelsea, Pete, the people he forgot about while making amends.
I think it's worth noting Todd is kind of a surrogate son to Bojack and we can see how he treats him because of that. Bojack still provides for him but constantly pokes at him and brings him down
yeah! butterscotch and bojack are both voiced by will arnett, and i've always thought the reason for that was bojack basically grew up to be his dad. if todd is his surrogate son, we can kind of see how he might have acted if he'd had an actual son.
This is highlighted especially in the episode where Sarah Lynn stays over at BoJack’s house. We can see how BoJack spoils Sarah Lynn treating her like a princess and giving her pancakes. Then Todd asks for pancakes and BoJack just continue to verbally berate him. It’s just interesting the way he projects his life experiences on the people around him and how that can affect his relationships.
It's interesting that you mention this because I used to wonder why he treated Todd so harshly as opposed to Sarah Lynn or Hollyhock when they first stayed with Bojack. I mean, Todd didn't know about the guest room and he's been living there for 5 years at that point but Sarah Lynn asks to stay and Bojack immediately offers her the guest room. There are plenty of other examples but it makes sense due to Bojack's issues with his mother and the aspects of his father's personality that he hates, all of which could be reflected in Bojack having to raise a son.
Was hoping someone else noticed this. And I think Todd, without realizing it and without intending to, had looked up to Bojack as a father figure for quite some time and that that contributed to just how devastating it was to finally get to that last straw and have to tell him off.
I have seen someone say that people with abusive parents wish they could go back and raise their parent to be a good person. They pointed that out when someone noticed how Harper looks so much like Beatrice.
Any analysis on how Bojack interacts with the women in his life is genuinely so interesting to me. Like how his daughter in his fantasy with Charlotte looks a lot like Beatrice, proving that just maybe he wished he could’ve given her better I typically don’t see such an objectively bad person be written to have such well written (if definitely toxic) relationships with women like this, typically it’s just seen as “also he’s bad to women” with not much welcome nuance, so seeing him have any will to be better for Hollyhock especially after Sarah Lynn was just a good direction for him
If we take the idea of him "wishing he could've given her better" and tie it into his whole "raised by TV" thing, him raising a better version of his mother in Harper goes very neatly with the "hurt adult healed by the love of a child" trope that never worked out for him when he was young. It's cool how with details like that the show gives us some pretty complex stuff to chew on but seeds it in the subtext instead of having a character just blatantly say it!
I think it’s so apparent how Bojack thinks he has a lot more control than he does in reality. I know he’s literally the main character, but within the narrative it also seems like he thinks he’s the main character TO EVERYONE. Hollyhock was being kind by suggesting Beatrice move in, and Bojack jumps to the assumption that Hollyhock will be influenced negatively by Beatrice ABOUT him specifically. When that’s not the case because Hollyhock is a full real person with other thoughts and feelings, and can think critically and not blindly believe whatever she’s told. But Bojack automatically believes that Hollyhock WILL be negatively influenced, and that the only thing Beatrice and Hollyhock will talk about is HIM. He really doesn’t view either of them as real people with their own lives.
And she only started thinking badly of him cuz of how he acted towards her possible mothers, workers and his dementia riddled mother. Beatrice only said nice things about him even tho she didnt recongize him at all. So of course hollyhock wasnt going to believe how he acted was warrented esp since he seems like a shitty person to everyone. If he was nice to everyone but beatrice i can see her being on his side more but he wasnt.
@@Kris-wo4pjYeah, I think Hollyhock enough credit. She knows Bojack's a mess and hates his mom because she screwed him up. But getting drugged by Beatrice did probably leave a lot of scars
Granted, beatrice hates his guts and was a terrible mother. There is a real possibility that she’d start talking mad shit about bojack and negatively influencing hollyhock because she’s the reason bojack turned out terrible. Since *his* experience with his mother was shit, he probably assumes she was like this to everyone and not just him specifically.
The scene where bojack turns penny down the second time can be viewed very differently. He doesn't say no to her, he doesn't say she should leave the boat he says "go to bed" and leaves the door of the ship open. You can even see how penny first thinks she has been turned down, but then looks at the door of the ship which is still open and then her expression changes. I don't think he turned her down, he basically invited her to his bed
Dude, the second time Penny was told not to do this, she should have took it. She was old enough to know better. She was 17 not 5. Bojack was also hammered off of his butt and before all this, they dropped off her alcohol poison friend. That should a signal to Penny that trying to sleep with Bojack would be a terrible idea. Seriously, if your mom's old buddy who hasn't seen her in 20 years, shows up to vist her, is surprised she has a family and is subtlety trying to get info on her and you suspect it, why sleep with him ? I'm not trying to take blame from Bojack, but can we not pretend Penny was a kindergartner ? Penny can still be traumatised, Bojack still kinda sucks, but let's not act like she's a baby
@@seeleunit2000 At 17 your sense of consequences hasn't solidified yet. As the adult in this scenario Bojack should've said no, no ifs ands or buts. Just because she isn't 5 as you keep bringing up doesn't mean she has a fully developed brain. 17 is still very much a kid.
@seeleunit2000 ?? You're aware that the year gap between her brain being fully developed is larger than the gap between her at 17 vs. when she started puberty, right? Stating that she's not a "child" a decade younger means nothing when it's almost a decade until she's an actual adult with adult experiences. You act like 17 year olds aren't supposed to be treated like they're children too, that need protection.
5:53 This part reminds me of a conversation I once had with my own extremely neglectful father, where he said "I tried so hard to not be my father, that I became my mother." I think that would've been the case too if Bojack had a male child, or perhaps just actually had a child no matter the gender. He'd try so hard to not be Butterscotch that he'd end up being Beatrice 2.0
6:41 Your speculation about daughter figures is supported by Bojack having far more bonding experiences with Penny than with her brother. Additionally, Penny could pass as Bojack and Charlotte's kid in a way that Trip couldn't really.
Bojack and Penny didn’t end up doing the do because Charlotte walked in on them in time. But I do believe that it still haunts Penny to think about what would’ve happened if her mother never saved her
Someone mentioned that he only sees women as archetypes. Looking back, this is totally true. Maybe you could do an analysis on Kelsey (whom he sees as a mom) edit: someone else mentioned fish out of water and him being a dad. This ep is super interesting, because it's him trying to mend his relationship with Kelsey (mom figure) and him trying to be a dad.
Yay! I’m so excited for this! Thanks for covering this topic 😊 After watching: it’s better than I could’ve imagined! Thanks so much for sharing this! Love your videos 😄
PC and Beatrice - Two sides of a motherhood coin. Both grew up in a rather dysfunctional family, with both their biggest parental figures (mom of PC and dad of Bea) doing their damnest to demean and put down their child. Yet outcome is different. PC wanting to be a mother, failing to become one time and time again, being a working mother with good ethics of support and kindness to others. Bea detesting being a mother, having a child out of pure accident on her first try, despising work and not valuing hardship of others and being openly hostile, without an ounce of support. I guess I'll be asking it for a while :D
I'm actually very glad Bojack never had kids, much less a daughter. Considering his reputation for abusing younger women, and even going as far as to attempt to gRape a 17 year old girl, I'm certain that if he didn't mend himself before reproducing, he would've abused her too.
Yoooo i was just talking to my mom last night about her soon to be ex-husband being a girl dad but we didnt know there was a word for it and couldnt think of what to call him. Crazy i see this the next day
Oh wow! I never expected my comment to be featured in a video! Glad it inspired you! I've been really enjoying your bojack content. You've touched on some really interesting stuff that I haven't seen other people talk about. Edit: and you expanded on so many other aspects of this subject that I never thought about too!
Say, could you please do a video about Sarah Lyna parents ? Because no one seems to ever really talk about how terrible they were to her and keep putting all the blame on Bojack for how she turned out. I mean Bojoack's hands aren't clean but we can't pretend he's completely to blame for Sarah Lyn since she wasn't his child.
@@rosesweetcharlotte Wait, wait, wait. Just because of him? Or was she looking for an excuse? She agreed too quickly. Look, it's Bojack's fault for not calling an ambulance. I don't deny that. But if we don't think Bojack can be justified because of his problems, then the same goes for Sarah Lynn. She is an adult and independent. She is also responsible for her actions, she was not forced to take drugs at gunpoint. It's not that Bojack is to blame for her dying like this. It could have happened to her without him, you never know what could have made her snap. The fact is that Bojack had a chance to save her and he didn't take it. He got scared. Again. This is his problem - he is too afraid to lose what he has, and in the end he loses even more, it hurts not only him, but also other people. And, by the way, he saved the lives of others several times during the series (at least twice). So this is a specific fear. Not the fear of losing your life, but the fear of losing your reputation.
Well, Todd would likely end up another Sarah Lynn. I don't actually watch the show anymore ever since I saw s2 e11, but from what I've seen from these analysis videos, Todd is a lot smarter than Sarah Lynn. However, this does not make him immune to Manipulation and grooming.
Is somehow for the better Bojack never had children, if he is already capable of going so far with Charlotte's daughter and Sara Lynn, who says he wouldn't do something worse with his own daughter?
I'm not sure he would have been as dangerous, mostly because I don't think he would have stayed. Having actual children is real work and I don't think he would have lasted
What about the sea horse baby he takes care of? That was when I realized he probably does want to be a father personally. And he tried his best to take care of them in the moment, but also the fact that in the end what was best for the child was to be away from him kind of says it all doesn't it.
To be fair, that was not his kid. It's not has a bojack could read him. Also, The seahorses father should have been way less oblivious. But it did demonstrate bojack's capacity for good. It just took a lot of effort
To what extent can we blame bojack for Sarah Lynn's exposure to the toxicity of Hollywoo? If Bojack was raised in toxic environment, why should we expect him to act like he didn't? How can we praise the parents for a good child, but blame the child/adult if he wasn't raise properly ?
@@j.ronnygibson plus it’s not like bojack got her the job in horsing around. She was exposed to a lot of awful shit in Hollywood before and after. And yeah bojack gave her the don’t stop dancing mentality but that doesn’t mean he’s responsible for all the shitty things in hollywood
This is the one pattern I didn't notice about the his relationship with women, I knew at some point he wanted to be a good father figure because he didn't have one but I didn't see it the way this video explained. Super interesting.
I want to say that I really love your videos! It’s nice to see more videos about Bojack Horseman and people putting it into different perspectives. Despite the show being over for a few years now, it feels like there are still a lot of things to uncover within the episodes and seasons. If there is one thing I would like to hear about your take on Bojack Horseman (And this might be triggering to some so I understand if you don’t want to do it), I wanted to hear your take on Bojack and Penny’s relationship and how Penny is actually a victim to Bojack. I’ve seen many people try to defend Bojack about how Penny was the one who ‘wanted sex with him’ and how ‘she wasn’t as victimized’ as they say, which is really disgusting and disheartening because to me, there are a bunch of reasons why Penny is more of a victim to Bojack than what people perceive. 1. Bojack forms an ‘honest relationship’ with Penny - Now, I quoted honest relationship because while Bojack does open up to Penny about the reasons why he is in New Mexico, he doesn’t actually explain or go into detail about what he truly wants here. He tells Penny “He doesn’t like the person he was back where he was from” but he doesn’t actually go into detail about why he didn’t like who he was. He’s being very selective about what he is telling her. And sure, he does have the right to not say all of his troubling past to a young woman, but because he is being selective and twisting the narrative, it paints Bojack into this misunderstood, sad man who is just looking for a place to belong. He gives that image to Penny so she can sympathize with him and gives her a line to want to be closer to him. (Now, I want to note that in some studies I’ve seen online, when it comes to predators who groom a younger individual, they are actually more likely to be someone that the victim knows and has made a connection with, rather than some random person. Keep in mind, this may not be for every case, but in plenty of situations, it’s far more likely for a groomer to have been someone that victim trusts and befriends so the groomer can have a better chance of lowering their guard and engaging with them.) 2. He becomes an involved figure in Penny’s life - As you mentioned in the video, Bojack becomes involved with Penny in more ways than one, giving him more opportunities to bond with her and form a relationship with her. This includes taking her driving, taking her to prom and giving her advice. Again, this is how Bojack is able to groom Penny without realizing it. By spending so much time with her, Penny begins to trust Bojack as he becomes a big part of her life, and believes that the things he does are not actually wrong. That because he is an adult and has done many of these life experiences before, he must know what he is doing and the fact she doesn’t reject his ideas proves she believes in him. 3. Bojack only wanted Penny as a daughter or love interest - This one really speaks for itself, as mentioned in the video. Bojack was looking for his connection to Charlotte, as that was the only time he was ever happy in his life. When Charlotte is revealed to have already moved on, he decides to become a part of the family. At first, he becomes a surrogate father to Penny to live out that father-life he longed for, as he felt he had a better experience after Sarah Lynn. He does a lot of things for Penny that a father would, replacing Kyle’s role (who somehow is okay with all of this for some reason?). It isn’t until after prom and they are back at the house, Penny tries to engage in sex with Bojack, but he turns her down. He then goes to the back where Charlotte is and after a touching moment, Bojack, being Bojack, decides that he wants more and tries to get back with Charlotte. Only to be met with rejection, so he heads back to the boat. There, he meets back up with Penny who still has that offer, and instead of turning her down again, he leaves the door open for her. This is basically interpreted that since Bojack couldn’t have the love of his life and the happy family he wanted with Charlotte, knowing he has a strong bond with Penny, he uses that to his advantage and attempts to get that happily ever after he craved. At this moment, Bojack is not seeing Penny, the young woman he helped raise for two months. He is seeing a younger version of Charlotte that he can have and relieve the life he lost so long ago. 4. The fall out of Penny’s friends - One of the biggest actions that Bojack did during Escape from L.A aside from Penny, was how he ended up hurting Penny’s friends. He had them drink irresponsibly, which resulted in Maddie passing out due to intoxication. Bojack does bring them to the ER, but instead of being an adult and being there for them, he practically just dumps them. A comatose woman in a wheelchair with her boyfriend, said boyfriend that Bojack threatens to have him take the fall and not mention them. This instills fear in Pete because he is worried that if he does bring Bojack up, then Bojack could hurt them. Now, thankfully Maddie does survive that night, but that does not mean the mental and physical wounds are healed. We see in season 6 when Hollyhock meets up with Pete how he recounts that night at prom. This scene to me feels intentionally well written, as throughout most of the series we follow Bojack’s point of view, so we never think about how the other characters react to his actions since he doesn’t usually see them again. So when we hear Pete retell the story of Bojack living with Penny’s family and taking her to prom, and hearing Hollyhock’s reactions… Those are actually realistic comments an outsider listening to this story would make. If we didn’t know this was Bojack or had seen what was really happening in that episode, it would be seen as weird, creepy and dangerous for what this man had done to these kids. I also wouldn’t be surprised that Penny realized how bad Bojack truly was, after Maddie and Pete got out. Notice how Pete never references Penny by name, he always refers to Penny as either ‘a girl from my town’. This might symbolize that Pete nor Maddie might be on good terms with Penny anymore, after that night, and maybe even cut off contact with Penny as well. Perhaps this loss of her friends and realizing how serious Maddie’s situation was really hammered in the fact that Bojack was more dangerous than she believed. 5. Bojack stalks Penny - After about a year has passed, and Penny is coping with the events of prom and Bojack, she is trying to move on with her life only for Bojack to show back up. What’s even more disturbing is the fact he’s dressed up in a disguise, as if not trying to be recognized and followed her to a place she was going to where she never informed him where she was going. To Penny, and even us, Bojack had been stalking her. And of course, being stalked would put anyone in a panic attack, especially someone who had done so much damage to her friends and her mother. Penny’s reaction here is just! 6. The truth about Bojack and Charlotte - Much like with Maddie and Pete, Penny would have changed her POV of Bojack after talking with her mother. Charlotte more than likely came clean about her relationship with Bojack in the past and the things he said to her during his stay with the family. This would be a shocking revelation for Penny, as she would realize all the things Bojack did with her, he had already done with her mother, making those moments at prom less special. It would have made Penny feel like a doll being used by Bojack to have the ideal woman, aka, her mother. 7. Penny is young but she is impressionable - Many people will blame Penny for being mature because she was old enough to consent, since the age of consent in NM is 17. Just because you are old enough to engage in intercorse (Even though it should be older than 18 in my opinion) doesn’t make you mature! We forget that Penny was the same age as Hollyhock when she first met Bojack. Sure, she was an old teen, but that doesn’t mean she knew everything. She was at a stage where she was impressionable and easily influenced, especially considering the things Bojack did to make her feel ‘special’ by making it seem like she was matured. Like many other teenagers, they usually want to feel like they are grown up, but never realize the consequences of their actions until it is too late. Bojack probably made Penny’s life more exciting, and she wanted to be part of that. But what Penny didn’t realize is what life would have been like after her and Bojack got together. We all know how most of Bojack’s relationships end, and chances are Penny wouldn’t have been any different. If anything, her mother saved her from a lifetime of regret and trauma. And even if she did want to have sex with Bojack, there was a high chance she could have regretted it as well. We also have to acknowledge that Bojack was well over 50 years old, so even if Penny was at the age of consent, there was still a massive age gap there that would have been frowned upon regardless. Sorry for the long list, these were the ones I could think of off the top of my head. Maybe some of them don’t make sense since I haven’t seen all of the episodes, but these were ones I always thought stuck out to me whenever I think of Penny. And again, I do find it alarming how so many people will put blame on Penny, when she was a young teenage girl who was basically groomed by Bojack.
Let me make this very clear. No one saying penny can't be traumatized. But let's not pretend that she's five. Bojack did something terrible. Just like Charlotte dis when she kissed Bojack despite being a happily married as she claimed. I'm not trying to downplay what bojack did. I'm just saying why does everyone keep treating penny like she is five ? She saw that her best friend was alcohol poisoned and had to be carded off into the hospital that should have been a wakeup call
@@seeleunit2000 Because Penny is a victim. Once again, 17, is very much not an adult. You have no real experience in the adult world at that point because you're still under your parent's house, that's only 7 years away from being 10, not even a decade. Your decision making skills still aren't the best. Bojack is to blame in this case due to his age and his leaving the situation open ended. He should have sent her back home and be done with it. But he chose to coin a phrase 'fuck around and find out'
This definitely made the second interview all the more haunting because while he may not intentional seek it out? The power indifference is definitely there. Yikes
@ I meant more like he retired, became a father and had a wife. He probably would’ve been a batter person, that’s just my personal opinion/perspective tho ^^
My fiance gave me shit for this comment and said you'd think I'm a bot so I decided to add this extra context and I said out loud each word as I typed it to annoy so thank for this opportunity (The video is good too)
I found a channel to be excited about!! I love the topics chosen, the analysis, and the willingness to hear others out on their perspectives! I normally don’t comment but here’s mine for engagement purposes
This idea clicked for me the moment I realized his fantasy daughter is the spitting image of his mom
Oh my god I didn't even realize that until just now
I hate this and am crying thank you
BoJack’s relationships with woman reminded BoJack’s issues with roles of women and girls remind me of the way how many people can only box women into four groups mothers, daughters, desirable and undesirables due to how they were raised and taught to interact with women and girls.
They can’t see women and girls as fully fleshed out individuals like the men in their lives and can only view and be around them if they’re boxed in as such. With many they also move them into different boxes if they can’t comprehend that the women and girls are more than their initial category they arbitrarily assigned them.
He doesn't have female friends without any previous or future sexyal involvement
Like:
PC - dated years
Diane - kissed (glad they ended up platonic)
Sarah lynn - slept with
Anna - slept with
All women he crosses that boundary with
And that should tell you a lot about society.
@@MylingCyrusIt’s interesting the only female that BJ didn’t make a move one was the only lesbian. I wonder if they could had a friendship.
@@PrincessLionessI don't think so. He only talked to her because of work
@ But his relationship with Diane and PC start through work as well?
This is related so much to "Xerox of a Xerox". His only "father figure", Secretariate, was a only a persona of a persona of a father figure.
😮
I think the saddest thing about Bojack is how often he was so close to doing the right thing.
Story of my life.
FR that was the hardest part of the end for me. He could have had a great ending, but he chose to fall back into his old patterns and do the second interview.
Granted, it probably gave closure to the others he hurt like Gina, Chelsea, Pete, the people he forgot about while making amends.
fish out of water is another interesting perspective of bojack being a father figure
I think it's worth noting Todd is kind of a surrogate son to Bojack and we can see how he treats him because of that. Bojack still provides for him but constantly pokes at him and brings him down
yeah! butterscotch and bojack are both voiced by will arnett, and i've always thought the reason for that was bojack basically grew up to be his dad. if todd is his surrogate son, we can kind of see how he might have acted if he'd had an actual son.
This is highlighted especially in the episode where Sarah Lynn stays over at BoJack’s house. We can see how BoJack spoils Sarah Lynn treating her like a princess and giving her pancakes. Then Todd asks for pancakes and BoJack just continue to verbally berate him. It’s just interesting the way he projects his life experiences on the people around him and how that can affect his relationships.
It's interesting that you mention this because I used to wonder why he treated Todd so harshly as opposed to Sarah Lynn or Hollyhock when they first stayed with Bojack. I mean, Todd didn't know about the guest room and he's been living there for 5 years at that point but Sarah Lynn asks to stay and Bojack immediately offers her the guest room. There are plenty of other examples but it makes sense due to Bojack's issues with his mother and the aspects of his father's personality that he hates, all of which could be reflected in Bojack having to raise a son.
Was hoping someone else noticed this. And I think Todd, without realizing it and without intending to, had looked up to Bojack as a father figure for quite some time and that that contributed to just how devastating it was to finally get to that last straw and have to tell him off.
@@MarchingArrowI never thought of this, I thought they were just friends. But this actually makes a lot of sense.
I have seen someone say that people with abusive parents wish they could go back and raise their parent to be a good person. They pointed that out when someone noticed how Harper looks so much like Beatrice.
Any analysis on how Bojack interacts with the women in his life is genuinely so interesting to me. Like how his daughter in his fantasy with Charlotte looks a lot like Beatrice, proving that just maybe he wished he could’ve given her better
I typically don’t see such an objectively bad person be written to have such well written (if definitely toxic) relationships with women like this, typically it’s just seen as “also he’s bad to women” with not much welcome nuance, so seeing him have any will to be better for Hollyhock especially after Sarah Lynn was just a good direction for him
If we take the idea of him "wishing he could've given her better" and tie it into his whole "raised by TV" thing, him raising a better version of his mother in Harper goes very neatly with the "hurt adult healed by the love of a child" trope that never worked out for him when he was young. It's cool how with details like that the show gives us some pretty complex stuff to chew on but seeds it in the subtext instead of having a character just blatantly say it!
I think it’s so apparent how Bojack thinks he has a lot more control than he does in reality. I know he’s literally the main character, but within the narrative it also seems like he thinks he’s the main character TO EVERYONE. Hollyhock was being kind by suggesting Beatrice move in, and Bojack jumps to the assumption that Hollyhock will be influenced negatively by Beatrice ABOUT him specifically. When that’s not the case because Hollyhock is a full real person with other thoughts and feelings, and can think critically and not blindly believe whatever she’s told. But Bojack automatically believes that Hollyhock WILL be negatively influenced, and that the only thing Beatrice and Hollyhock will talk about is HIM. He really doesn’t view either of them as real people with their own lives.
And she only started thinking badly of him cuz of how he acted towards her possible mothers, workers and his dementia riddled mother. Beatrice only said nice things about him even tho she didnt recongize him at all. So of course hollyhock wasnt going to believe how he acted was warrented esp since he seems like a shitty person to everyone. If he was nice to everyone but beatrice i can see her being on his side more but he wasnt.
@@Kris-wo4pjYeah, I think Hollyhock enough credit. She knows Bojack's a mess and hates his mom because she screwed him up. But getting drugged by Beatrice did probably leave a lot of scars
Granted, beatrice hates his guts and was a terrible mother. There is a real possibility that she’d start talking mad shit about bojack and negatively influencing hollyhock because she’s the reason bojack turned out terrible. Since *his* experience with his mother was shit, he probably assumes she was like this to everyone and not just him specifically.
And when i say negatively influence i mean in general, not just negatively influence her perception of bojack
Really, he should never have invited Beatrice to live with them. Even that was him forcing the situation to revolve around him
I didn’t notice until just now, but of course Harper was BoJack’s dream daughter because she looks *just like his mother*
i also find it pretty interesting that harper takes after bojack, but penny, charlotte's _real_ daughter, takes after her mother
The scene where bojack turns penny down the second time can be viewed very differently. He doesn't say no to her, he doesn't say she should leave the boat he says "go to bed" and leaves the door of the ship open. You can even see how penny first thinks she has been turned down, but then looks at the door of the ship which is still open and then her expression changes. I don't think he turned her down, he basically invited her to his bed
Dude, the second time Penny was told not to do this, she should have took it. She was old enough to know better. She was 17 not 5. Bojack was also hammered off of his butt and before all this, they dropped off her alcohol poison friend. That should a signal to Penny that trying to sleep with Bojack would be a terrible idea.
Seriously, if your mom's old buddy who hasn't seen her in 20 years, shows up to vist her, is surprised she has a family and is subtlety trying to get info on her and you suspect it, why sleep with him ?
I'm not trying to take blame from Bojack, but can we not pretend Penny was a kindergartner ?
Penny can still be traumatised, Bojack still kinda sucks, but let's not act like she's a baby
@@seeleunit2000 At 17 your sense of consequences hasn't solidified yet. As the adult in this scenario Bojack should've said no, no ifs ands or buts. Just because she isn't 5 as you keep bringing up doesn't mean she has a fully developed brain. 17 is still very much a kid.
@seeleunit2000 ?? You're aware that the year gap between her brain being fully developed is larger than the gap between her at 17 vs. when she started puberty, right? Stating that she's not a "child" a decade younger means nothing when it's almost a decade until she's an actual adult with adult experiences. You act like 17 year olds aren't supposed to be treated like they're children too, that need protection.
How fucking old are you? This is a disgusting take@@seeleunit2000
@@seeleunit2000 She quite literally was not old enough to know better. You know who was? BJ.
5:53 This part reminds me of a conversation I once had with my own extremely neglectful father, where he said "I tried so hard to not be my father, that I became my mother." I think that would've been the case too if Bojack had a male child, or perhaps just actually had a child no matter the gender. He'd try so hard to not be Butterscotch that he'd end up being Beatrice 2.0
6:41 Your speculation about daughter figures is supported by Bojack having far more bonding experiences with Penny than with her brother. Additionally, Penny could pass as Bojack and Charlotte's kid in a way that Trip couldn't really.
Ewww, that makes it worse...
Bojack and Penny didn’t end up doing the do because Charlotte walked in on them in time. But I do believe that it still haunts Penny to think about what would’ve happened if her mother never saved her
I wonder if the whole girl dad dynamic partially explains why BoJack was so shitty to Todd
Yeah just like how boy moms are bad to their daughter I guess it's a whirlwind effect
Especially when Todd behaves in a way that reminds BoJack that he’s young enough to be his son.
I love these talks so much, I didn’t even think of that.
Someone mentioned that he only sees women as archetypes. Looking back, this is totally true. Maybe you could do an analysis on Kelsey (whom he sees as a mom)
edit: someone else mentioned fish out of water and him being a dad. This ep is super interesting, because it's him trying to mend his relationship with Kelsey (mom figure) and him trying to be a dad.
Yay! I’m so excited for this! Thanks for covering this topic 😊
After watching: it’s better than I could’ve imagined! Thanks so much for sharing this! Love your videos 😄
PC and Beatrice - Two sides of a motherhood coin.
Both grew up in a rather dysfunctional family, with both their biggest parental figures (mom of PC and dad of Bea) doing their damnest to demean and put down their child.
Yet outcome is different.
PC wanting to be a mother, failing to become one time and time again, being a working mother with good ethics of support and kindness to others.
Bea detesting being a mother, having a child out of pure accident on her first try, despising work and not valuing hardship of others and being openly hostile, without an ounce of support.
I guess I'll be asking it for a while :D
Don’t worry- I’m on it! Just got a few videos in the queue currently- apologies!
@@PosiTVty. Oh, no need to apologize. I understand :o
There's also an interesting contrast between the two based on their respective times of their youth and their class backgrounds.
Love these parallels! I haven't thought about it before.
I'm actually very glad Bojack never had kids, much less a daughter. Considering his reputation for abusing younger women, and even going as far as to attempt to gRape a 17 year old girl, I'm certain that if he didn't mend himself before reproducing, he would've abused her too.
Yoooo i was just talking to my mom last night about her soon to be ex-husband being a girl dad but we didnt know there was a word for it and couldnt think of what to call him. Crazy i see this the next day
Wait omfg. Her manager aka her bear stepdad leaked naked photos on her. Why does he have those? God he really was abusing her.
Dear God, I never thought of that! And that makes it worse because Bojack had a chance to be the father she needed and he killed her
Oh wow! I never expected my comment to be featured in a video! Glad it inspired you! I've been really enjoying your bojack content. You've touched on some really interesting stuff that I haven't seen other people talk about.
Edit: and you expanded on so many other aspects of this subject that I never thought about too!
Say, could you please do a video about Sarah Lyna parents ? Because no one seems to ever really talk about how terrible they were to her and keep putting all the blame on Bojack for how she turned out.
I mean Bojoack's hands aren't clean but we can't pretend he's completely to blame for Sarah Lyn since she wasn't his child.
I think the tragedy with them is that while they were awful and very guilty for how she turned out, they aren't the ones who killed her
But Bojack doesn't kill her. He just left. It horrible. But it's not equal to killing.
@@lamegubl7412 She only goes on the drug binge because of him and he could have called 911 at any time
@@rosesweetcharlotte Wait, wait, wait. Just because of him? Or was she looking for an excuse? She agreed too quickly. Look, it's Bojack's fault for not calling an ambulance. I don't deny that. But if we don't think Bojack can be justified because of his problems, then the same goes for Sarah Lynn. She is an adult and independent. She is also responsible for her actions, she was not forced to take drugs at gunpoint. It's not that Bojack is to blame for her dying like this. It could have happened to her without him, you never know what could have made her snap. The fact is that Bojack had a chance to save her and he didn't take it. He got scared. Again. This is his problem - he is too afraid to lose what he has, and in the end he loses even more, it hurts not only him, but also other people. And, by the way, he saved the lives of others several times during the series (at least twice). So this is a specific fear. Not the fear of losing your life, but the fear of losing your reputation.
Makes you wonder how different Bojack and Todd's relationship would’ve been if Todd was a girl..
I suspect that bojack would act with fem todd the same way he acts with princess caroline...
Well, Todd would likely end up another Sarah Lynn. I don't actually watch the show anymore ever since I saw s2 e11, but from what I've seen from these analysis videos, Todd is a lot smarter than Sarah Lynn. However, this does not make him immune to Manipulation and grooming.
Is somehow for the better Bojack never had children, if he is already capable of going so far with Charlotte's daughter and Sara Lynn, who says he wouldn't do something worse with his own daughter?
Now, that's insulting. Bojack is a lot of things but he's not Sarah Lyn's step dad.
He is not, but he could become like him. @@seeleunit2000
I'm not sure he would have been as dangerous, mostly because I don't think he would have stayed. Having actual children is real work and I don't think he would have lasted
What about the sea horse baby he takes care of? That was when I realized he probably does want to be a father personally. And he tried his best to take care of them in the moment, but also the fact that in the end what was best for the child was to be away from him kind of says it all doesn't it.
To be fair, that was not his kid.
It's not has a bojack could read him. Also, The seahorses father should have been way less oblivious.
But it did demonstrate bojack's capacity for good. It just took a lot of effort
To what extent can we blame bojack for Sarah Lynn's exposure to the toxicity of Hollywoo?
If Bojack was raised in toxic environment, why should we expect him to act like he didn't?
How can we praise the parents for a good child, but blame the child/adult if he wasn't raise properly ?
@@j.ronnygibson plus it’s not like bojack got her the job in horsing around. She was exposed to a lot of awful shit in Hollywood before and after. And yeah bojack gave her the don’t stop dancing mentality but that doesn’t mean he’s responsible for all the shitty things in hollywood
This is the one pattern I didn't notice about the his relationship with women, I knew at some point he wanted to be a good father figure because he didn't have one but I didn't see it the way this video explained. Super interesting.
I LITERALLY LOVE YOUR BOJACK HORSEMAN CONTENT YOURE THE GREATEST PERSON EVER ♥♥♥
This was great, but disturbing in how accurate it is, and how real
Something sad about Hollyhock is that Beatrice indeed poisoned her with that coffee with drugs for lost weight...
And left her with scars from the incident. So, Bojack had a point
The worst part is, Beatrice was doing that out of a toxic sense of love. She really did see her as a daughter and that was not a good thing
youre my favorite youtuber to go to for bojack content!! thanks for always being so entertaining and insightful
not sure why I wasn't subscribed before!!! I was sure I was lol
You are slept on. Bro you are an awesome TH-camr
I cannot put into words how much I love this video.
I want to say that I really love your videos! It’s nice to see more videos about Bojack Horseman and people putting it into different perspectives. Despite the show being over for a few years now, it feels like there are still a lot of things to uncover within the episodes and seasons. If there is one thing I would like to hear about your take on Bojack Horseman (And this might be triggering to some so I understand if you don’t want to do it), I wanted to hear your take on Bojack and Penny’s relationship and how Penny is actually a victim to Bojack. I’ve seen many people try to defend Bojack about how Penny was the one who ‘wanted sex with him’ and how ‘she wasn’t as victimized’ as they say, which is really disgusting and disheartening because to me, there are a bunch of reasons why Penny is more of a victim to Bojack than what people perceive.
1. Bojack forms an ‘honest relationship’ with Penny - Now, I quoted honest relationship because while Bojack does open up to Penny about the reasons why he is in New Mexico, he doesn’t actually explain or go into detail about what he truly wants here. He tells Penny “He doesn’t like the person he was back where he was from” but he doesn’t actually go into detail about why he didn’t like who he was. He’s being very selective about what he is telling her. And sure, he does have the right to not say all of his troubling past to a young woman, but because he is being selective and twisting the narrative, it paints Bojack into this misunderstood, sad man who is just looking for a place to belong. He gives that image to Penny so she can sympathize with him and gives her a line to want to be closer to him. (Now, I want to note that in some studies I’ve seen online, when it comes to predators who groom a younger individual, they are actually more likely to be someone that the victim knows and has made a connection with, rather than some random person. Keep in mind, this may not be for every case, but in plenty of situations, it’s far more likely for a groomer to have been someone that victim trusts and befriends so the groomer can have a better chance of lowering their guard and engaging with them.)
2. He becomes an involved figure in Penny’s life - As you mentioned in the video, Bojack becomes involved with Penny in more ways than one, giving him more opportunities to bond with her and form a relationship with her. This includes taking her driving, taking her to prom and giving her advice. Again, this is how Bojack is able to groom Penny without realizing it. By spending so much time with her, Penny begins to trust Bojack as he becomes a big part of her life, and believes that the things he does are not actually wrong. That because he is an adult and has done many of these life experiences before, he must know what he is doing and the fact she doesn’t reject his ideas proves she believes in him.
3. Bojack only wanted Penny as a daughter or love interest - This one really speaks for itself, as mentioned in the video. Bojack was looking for his connection to Charlotte, as that was the only time he was ever happy in his life. When Charlotte is revealed to have already moved on, he decides to become a part of the family. At first, he becomes a surrogate father to Penny to live out that father-life he longed for, as he felt he had a better experience after Sarah Lynn. He does a lot of things for Penny that a father would, replacing Kyle’s role (who somehow is okay with all of this for some reason?). It isn’t until after prom and they are back at the house, Penny tries to engage in sex with Bojack, but he turns her down. He then goes to the back where Charlotte is and after a touching moment, Bojack, being Bojack, decides that he wants more and tries to get back with Charlotte. Only to be met with rejection, so he heads back to the boat. There, he meets back up with Penny who still has that offer, and instead of turning her down again, he leaves the door open for her. This is basically interpreted that since Bojack couldn’t have the love of his life and the happy family he wanted with Charlotte, knowing he has a strong bond with Penny, he uses that to his advantage and attempts to get that happily ever after he craved. At this moment, Bojack is not seeing Penny, the young woman he helped raise for two months. He is seeing a younger version of Charlotte that he can have and relieve the life he lost so long ago.
4. The fall out of Penny’s friends - One of the biggest actions that Bojack did during Escape from L.A aside from Penny, was how he ended up hurting Penny’s friends. He had them drink irresponsibly, which resulted in Maddie passing out due to intoxication. Bojack does bring them to the ER, but instead of being an adult and being there for them, he practically just dumps them. A comatose woman in a wheelchair with her boyfriend, said boyfriend that Bojack threatens to have him take the fall and not mention them. This instills fear in Pete because he is worried that if he does bring Bojack up, then Bojack could hurt them. Now, thankfully Maddie does survive that night, but that does not mean the mental and physical wounds are healed. We see in season 6 when Hollyhock meets up with Pete how he recounts that night at prom. This scene to me feels intentionally well written, as throughout most of the series we follow Bojack’s point of view, so we never think about how the other characters react to his actions since he doesn’t usually see them again. So when we hear Pete retell the story of Bojack living with Penny’s family and taking her to prom, and hearing Hollyhock’s reactions… Those are actually realistic comments an outsider listening to this story would make. If we didn’t know this was Bojack or had seen what was really happening in that episode, it would be seen as weird, creepy and dangerous for what this man had done to these kids. I also wouldn’t be surprised that Penny realized how bad Bojack truly was, after Maddie and Pete got out. Notice how Pete never references Penny by name, he always refers to Penny as either ‘a girl from my town’. This might symbolize that Pete nor Maddie might be on good terms with Penny anymore, after that night, and maybe even cut off contact with Penny as well. Perhaps this loss of her friends and realizing how serious Maddie’s situation was really hammered in the fact that Bojack was more dangerous than she believed.
5. Bojack stalks Penny - After about a year has passed, and Penny is coping with the events of prom and Bojack, she is trying to move on with her life only for Bojack to show back up. What’s even more disturbing is the fact he’s dressed up in a disguise, as if not trying to be recognized and followed her to a place she was going to where she never informed him where she was going. To Penny, and even us, Bojack had been stalking her. And of course, being stalked would put anyone in a panic attack, especially someone who had done so much damage to her friends and her mother. Penny’s reaction here is just!
6. The truth about Bojack and Charlotte - Much like with Maddie and Pete, Penny would have changed her POV of Bojack after talking with her mother. Charlotte more than likely came clean about her relationship with Bojack in the past and the things he said to her during his stay with the family. This would be a shocking revelation for Penny, as she would realize all the things Bojack did with her, he had already done with her mother, making those moments at prom less special. It would have made Penny feel like a doll being used by Bojack to have the ideal woman, aka, her mother.
7. Penny is young but she is impressionable - Many people will blame Penny for being mature because she was old enough to consent, since the age of consent in NM is 17. Just because you are old enough to engage in intercorse (Even though it should be older than 18 in my opinion) doesn’t make you mature! We forget that Penny was the same age as Hollyhock when she first met Bojack. Sure, she was an old teen, but that doesn’t mean she knew everything. She was at a stage where she was impressionable and easily influenced, especially considering the things Bojack did to make her feel ‘special’ by making it seem like she was matured. Like many other teenagers, they usually want to feel like they are grown up, but never realize the consequences of their actions until it is too late. Bojack probably made Penny’s life more exciting, and she wanted to be part of that. But what Penny didn’t realize is what life would have been like after her and Bojack got together. We all know how most of Bojack’s relationships end, and chances are Penny wouldn’t have been any different. If anything, her mother saved her from a lifetime of regret and trauma. And even if she did want to have sex with Bojack, there was a high chance she could have regretted it as well. We also have to acknowledge that Bojack was well over 50 years old, so even if Penny was at the age of consent, there was still a massive age gap there that would have been frowned upon regardless.
Sorry for the long list, these were the ones I could think of off the top of my head. Maybe some of them don’t make sense since I haven’t seen all of the episodes, but these were ones I always thought stuck out to me whenever I think of Penny. And again, I do find it alarming how so many people will put blame on Penny, when she was a young teenage girl who was basically groomed by Bojack.
Let me make this very clear. No one saying penny can't be traumatized. But let's not pretend that she's five. Bojack did something terrible. Just like Charlotte dis when she kissed Bojack despite being a happily married as she claimed.
I'm not trying to downplay what bojack did. I'm just saying why does everyone keep treating penny like she is five ?
She saw that her best friend was alcohol poisoned and had to be carded off into the hospital that should have been a wakeup call
@@seeleunit2000 Because Penny is a victim. Once again, 17, is very much not an adult. You have no real experience in the adult world at that point because you're still under your parent's house, that's only 7 years away from being 10, not even a decade. Your decision making skills still aren't the best. Bojack is to blame in this case due to his age and his leaving the situation open ended. He should have sent her back home and be done with it. But he chose to coin a phrase 'fuck around and find out'
Kyle is such a nice guy i love Kyle
This is a great video; I was wondering what was up with BoJack trying so hard with Hollyhock and losing her.
It's probably a good thing he never had real children
This definitely made the second interview all the more haunting because while he may not intentional seek it out? The power indifference is definitely there. Yikes
Honestly I think if he became an father he’d of been an LOT better person, he definitely just needed that push-one that wasnt given
I don't think that's realistic. Maybe if he had actually left Hollywood, but that's not what he wants
@ I meant more like he retired, became a father and had a wife. He probably would’ve been a batter person, that’s just my personal opinion/perspective tho ^^
Love your bojack content! 🩷
Engagement comment
My fiance gave me shit for this comment and said you'd think I'm a bot so I decided to add this extra context and I said out loud each word as I typed it to annoy so thank for this opportunity (The video is good too)
@@jacobray8189 bots only prompt obvious scams. Its like how people use to say first. Its obviously a real person cuz no bot is going to post that.
Engagement reply lol
I found a channel to be excited about!! I love the topics chosen, the analysis, and the willingness to hear others out on their perspectives!
I normally don’t comment but here’s mine for engagement purposes
Loved this video
I don't know if I would call Kyle the "head of the household"
jamison too, kinda
Eeeew i did it with my pretend daughter is YUCK