Gospel Fully Restored or Just The Beginning Of An Ongoing Restoration? | Mormonism Live! 125
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- When the Phrase "Ongoing Restoration" showed up around 2020 Critics paused as this seemed to be the Church saying something different as if the Church now wanted the restoration to be much earlier in its stage of development than had been intimated in the past. So Bill & RFM take long look over Mormonism's history to see what has been said and what it might mean.
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• The Ongoing Restoration
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To me it seems that Pres. Nelson simply has created a reality where his actions can never be questioned: if a teaching has a precedent in former scripture then it is part of the "restitution of all things:. If it is brand-new, it is part of the "ongoing" restoration: ie, the D&C states that truths that have never before been revealed will be made known. Either way. the living prophet wins the game. I don't know how conscious this is, but it is really quite brilliant: "Heads I win, tails you lose." Mormonism has been reduced one big appeal to authority: if the prophet says it, it is so.
Smith was never a Prophet. He was a Poopit.
KSASTAMPS:
Yes, and LDS prophets have been overruling Jesus Willy Nilly as they wish by issuing orders and making changes on a whim as if they were themselves God.
The prophet worship is a double-edged sword: it allows the current man at the top to virtually get his way unopposed. But, the flip side is it allows the next man up to completely disregard the former guy. It will be interesting to see how quickly Pres. Nelson will be run under the bus and forgotten when he does pass away. Plus, it is interesting to see men who are offering virtually nothing of substantive change arguing that we must "take out vitamins" because of the spectacular things about ready to happen. Honestly, Nelson has pushed a lot of temples into the pipeline, but what of any real doctrinal change has taken place during his administration? Bowing to social pressure and removing more masonic elements in the temple--is this considered consequential in doctrine?
When I left the LDS church at 30 it was my 2 nd time . I got involved in Unity and Science of Mind. It fit my beliefs about a God and how the a universe might work. So FF 40 years I came back to Temple covenants changed, service hours radically changed , High Priest and Elders together, new names for everything!! I did not recognize the church except for the lifeless people and even the weird underwear was different. So talk about change . I could write a book on all the changes I saw. 2 teacher’s mandatory with children, blood oaths gone,scriptures on the phone, no one singing Jesus wants me for a sunbeam🎵ministering sisters. Church manual where we all were studying the same stuff and talks were assigned topics and more boring than I remembered.I was so lost. I needed a coach🤣it was so unfamiliar. So trying for 3 years Ihated it and someone sent me a link to Mormon Stories about Abraham. I listened for about 10 hours crossing out my scriptures and wrote Liars!!!!! On the pages. This is worse than the church I knew. Fraud and tax evasion with sex problems Jeepers.
Let them change it. The things needing change are core integrity issues.I do appreciate you bringing it up but this church is not the only thing out there. Life is to great to waste on being upset about this Corporation. It is not a Spiritually uplifting place anymore.😢
Excellent points made by Bill and RFM about huge changes coming for the LDS Church. One big one I expect has to do with polygamy, my expectation is that the leaders will be forced to take the position that it's not a thing in this life OR the next. Elohim is Not a polygamist, never Has been a polygamist, never Will be a polygamist. Get the doctrine closer to mainstream Biblical Christianity.
Served my mission 1972-1974 England Central Mission. Used the Uniform System For Teaching Investigators throughout. The first discussion was designed to lead the investigator into a complete faith crisis. Page 18, “In fact Mr Brown what about your baptism in the Christian Assembly Church?” Mr Brown…”I wasn’t really baptized then!” Also keep this in mind. Beginning 1962 Holland,Cook and Ballard all served missions using this exact same system in England.
“Baseball Baptisms” we’re their fruits! In stunning contrast Nelson, Oaks and Eyring didn’t serve missions. Most likely have never read these discussions or given one to an investigator.
Beautiful spring weather -- I'm heading out to the garden to loin my grids.
Wow, so many thoughts about this one. As a member, I don't recall ever believing that the restoration was done. I knew the 9th article of faith as a child, and as a missionary I knew that Joseph Smith had continued to receive new doctrine right up to his death, and Brigham Young picked up where he left off, as did John Taylor (I didn't know much about the intervening church presidents except that Joseph Fielding Smith contradicted most of the stuff the early leaders taught and I didn't believe him). I was in the camp that believed that new doctrines would be revealed again as soon as the members were ready to receive them. I taught my investigators that the restoration was started by Smith, not that it was finished by him.
I definitely heard some of the conference talks you reference, such as the Faust ones, but somehow I never registered that they actually believed that the restoration was over--they were just simplifying the narrative for rhetorical effect, but they must have known the truth, right?
So, if I were still in the church, I'd probably be right there with Russel Nelson, believing in the ongoing restoration and waiting with baited breath for him to actually reveal something new and meaningful for the first time in a century.
The other thing that occurs to me is that the idea put forward by Hinckley that Joe Smith received all the revelation we needed for this dispensation is awfully close to the mainstream doctrine that the Bible contains all the revelation we need. Something mormons used to mock mainstream christians for believing (maybe still do).
"Ongoing restoration" could make sense in a context of adding clarity, elucidating and fine-tuning the ambiguities of scripture or prior revelations. It makes no sense at all when the new revelations and prophetic utterances blatantly contradict past revelations and prophetic utterances. It makes no sense when things declared to be doctrine and revelation by prior "prophets" (sustained as such by entire generations of priesthood holders) are downgraded to nothing but "policies" and "opinions" by successor prophets. If that pattern is accepted as okay, it all becomes really pointless and indistinguishable from ongoing fraud and ongoing error. If the past prophets could be and were wrong, while declaring they were right, why not also the current blowhard who is pretending to "speak as a prophet"?
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Yeah, that's the rub, right? For all the rhetoric about ongoing revelation, they never actually reveal things, and despite the coy hints that are supposed to make us believe they talk to God, they never say anything new or insightful. As a nonmember, I recognize that it's a message designed to cover the fact that they're removing the things that make the church unique or that hinder whatever private agendas they feel like pushing. But back when I desperately wanted to believe in God and revelation and eternal progression, I doubt I would have accepted that explanation.
Also, RFM's explanation that they need to demote Joseph Smith now in order to eventually condemn him for his many crimes was something I never thought of, but instantly had the ring of truth.
Demoting Joseph Smith also brings the church another step closer to American fundamentalist christianity, which is also something the leadership seems to deeply crave.
@@jdarkwind Why doesn't anybody talk about Joseph Smith's reveling of the -666 beast of revelation as recorded in the teachings of the Joseph Smith? Link UTube video titled (BOA ep 16) by Paul Gregersen to get there
@@paulgregersen3570 never heard of the -666 beast.
Why doesn’t the next guy up just double down on the old rock in the hat and just bust out 2700 pages of just wild fantasy
Cf. Matthew Gill: The Chronicles of Children of Araneck
/
Most folks would settle for 116 pages.
Then there is the Metinah Archives. But they are only around 300 pages long.
They could actually even hire a team of decent ghost writers and researchers this time to make it a bit more credible. I still have a hard time understanding why so many Mormons think the Book of Mormon is so impressive that the "power of God" is the only explanation for its existence. Even before I knew about all of the archaeological problems and the fact that all of the book's themes and contents can be explained by resource, ideas, sermons, debates and so on that existed in Joseph Smith's immediate environment, the book just seemed like a bad pseudo-religious comic book.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Clearly not a comic book, as it lacks drawings. Might I instead suggest a fan fiction?
On my mission, an investigator said “If the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel then why do we need continuous revelation?” it stumped me when I was faithful.
A revelation is never late nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to!
😭😭
Smith had a revelation that this BOM be Copyrighted in Canada. They wouldn't do it so this time he got a new Revelation from god. Sounds like his god lied or Smith lied.
25:25 I laughed too hard at this prophecy by Bill Reel because it is obviously going to be a reality in the near future.
I was a convert in 2005. I was taught that there was a Great Apostasy and that everything was fully restored by Joseph Smith. There was a lot of focus on Christianity being wrong ever since it went astray shortly after it started, (hmmm, kinda like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?).
65 minutes. A small adjustment here and there. Like, a certain November 2015 exclusion policy that needed to exist for 41 months?
1:14:53 that face RFM makes while Bill stays calm and carries on.
87 minutes. They'll do a survey 1st to make sure people are ok with them removing D&C 132.
1:32:32 I also had to get rebaptized. Long story. Maybe I'll tell it on Mormon Stories someday.
1:46:33 it's gonna be exciting. Can't wait!
Did anyone else note the irony two minutes in?
RFM: “You know you’ve reached power when people are afraid to say your name.”
Bill: “I don’t have any problem saying anyone’s name when I talk about info about Mormonism. I have no problem saying anyone’s name…, RFM.”
I am wondering, I didn't grow up in a Church fixed in the expectation, that the restoration had been fully completed, except what was necessary to get to the Celestial Kingdom. Is this a cultural, attitudinal difference between Utah Mormons, born into the Church, holding the line, and SoCal Mormon converts, seeing a new world of possibility? Maybe my folks were atypical, creative members who, feeling inspired, lived for what was going to happen next in God's Kingdom. I guess I didn't grow up in the same church you have described. The point I want to make is that, I think past experiences we have of the Church, depend more on the how we see, then what we see. We might choose not to confuse our experience of doctrinal positions but instead, focus on doctrinal changes that contradict. I have no interest in quibbling about the perspectives of dour old men(even those younger than me) who can't see beyond the patriarchal soup they swim in. Culture changes, and the conversations move on. The listeners have also changed. And so has the world out there, we are engaging. We argue with the language and ideas of past Mormon leaders whose reference points we can only infer. I wonder what is the point of making the Church wrong when you have already established that it is invalid in the first place. For so long the Church, like a broken record, has dominated our attention. The climate is changing, we have a real world to save! Let's plant trees not temples!
Love this program. You guys have super cool ASMR voices! Love the content. MORmONism is evil, insidious and literally DESTROYS families.
Larry Freestone:
100% Correct.
RFM has a great radio voice. Easy to listen to
Callister can't bear witness to Joseph smith. He wasn't there.
Around a half hour into this, when you were both talking about how the members are the ones who get blamed for why revelations are not more forthcoming….it reminded me of the Israelites, and how their behaviours cost that generation and Moses, to not be able to cross over into the Promised Land in the end.
22:20 "If you put up the slideshow, Maven." I thought: "Are we in the temple now?" 😅
Great point RFM. So Nelson is allegedly a prophet, seer, and revelator. The book of Mormon was “translated” with the Seer stone in a hat (no gold plates needed for translation). The seer stone is still in possession of the church according to Joseph Fielding Smith. So if all of that were true, Prophet/Seer Nelson should be able to grab the seer stone and translate the sealed portion of BOM and the lost 116 pages. Heck he should be able to translate all ancient texts and writings discovered in ancient ruins…
The church is retconning like a comic book! Interesting! 😂
😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫
Mormonism Live is like the Ministry of Silly Talks in the Live Chat 😂
It doesn't have to become imperfect, it could just be different
The point is that something that is perfect is optimal. And something which is perfect is also not changing (God is the same yesterday, today and forever).
I liked Gordon B. Hinkley until he gave one of his last conference talks before he passed away. The talk was so prideful I remember thinking a prophet of God would not speak that way. When I was on my mission Spencer Kimball spoke at a conference we were at and all us missionaries formed a corridor for him to walk through and as he passed right next to me I thought I would feel something spiritually special about him but I felt nothing. These were my early signs that the church was not true and these men were not prophets of God - later confirmed by all the info we have now.
All these prophets are gonna be real surprised when they kick the bucket. People in authority that led people straight to hell gonna have to answer
Hey when I loin, I go all the way....
No half loiners in this outfit. 😂
YEAHHHHH BABBBY
As I've said: It's not changing things. It's super-conserving! We are so conservative that we have to change things all the time to **really** conserve tradition.
I thought restoration, in the context of Mormonism, meant bringing back something lost. When you make changes (subtract/add/clean) to something, that's just housekeeping. Once a prophet declares something is a revelation, a future prophet should not be able to change that while declaring "ongoing restoration." Once something is brought back you can't restore it again. Speaking of restoration OF ALL THINGS, why would god want the church under the "new covenant" to practice anything from the "old covenant?" I've always thought it was odd that only certain Old Testament practices have been restored, if everything is supposed to be; when loads of them are much easier to practice than POLYGAMY! Is a CHRISTIAN church going to adhere to elements of the MOSAIC LAW without blinking twice? I'm fairly certain Jesus would be the first to shake his head in their direction.
You should do an episode about the Articles of faith. This year I learned that Joseph did not come up with the articles of faith, that Oliver Cowdrey came up with the articles of faith years before and other members are linked to the AOF. It would be an interesting episode. It would be another plagiarism from joseph but no one has touched on this topic.
It wouldn't surprise me at all. The funny thing about history -- no matter how voluminous the records are -- is that at best it still represents only bits and pieces and snippets of information about the entirety of things that happened every day, every week, every month and every year of any relevant period of time. We can get clues as to what certain people were like, what their proclivities were and so on. Everything points to Joseph Smith as being a person who had a massive over-sized ego and being a person who would tell lies at the drop of a hat...or at the drop of a rock into a hat.
What most people don't know is that there is an extension to the Articles of Faith that was given in 1840. Joseph Smith Papers titled: Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions
David Alexander. You're welcome.
I had one of my TBM friends tell me that the church has never taught it had all the truth or the full truth. He said that people have misinterpreted the word "fullness" of the gospel.... he said that to me as if he was saying something so profound that nobody else had figured out but him lol....
Well, judging by how big the temple garments are compared to normal people underwear, I'd say that Mormons have a "fullness of the underwear".
@@TEAM__POSEID0N 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Christ told John that latter-day believers would worship Christ in HIS TEMPLE." Revelation 7:15" Wearing white robes and garments! That Christ would come suddenly to his temple soon. " Malachi 3:1" How come only LDS are building temples and worshiping him wearing white garments today if they are wrong?. Nobody else is preparing for the great wedding of the bride and bridegroom by the rehearsal Christ told John must be!. Link UTube video titled (BOA ep 16)
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Maybe you mocking this will bring a great fire of wrath.
@@paulgregersen3570 maybe not.
Nelson and Hinckley rivalry continues.
Why was this church allowed to send innocent young missionaries to go out throughout the world and teach what they knew were all lies? They lied about EVERYTHING and have never had to be accountable. It's just so wrong. Shameful horrific and damaging to those in this horrific corporation
Church makes 24 million a day gonna have collateral damage
What about the changes in the Book of Mormon regarding race. "White and delightsome" I love the comparison to the Winchester mansion
The changes are much to do with men who are not scholars of the history & tenets of the church. Their teachings & changes are related to their ego's.
The history and tenets were pretty much made up in the first place by the same types of men...all dilettantes, impostors and pretenders. So, basically, there was a first order of dilettantes and pretenders. And their work has been subjected to tampering by subsequent orders of dilettantes and pretenders, who are tempted to tamper, adjust, revise and delete, due to the untenable and unsustainable nature of the doctrines and "revelations" that the first order of dilettantes and pretenders produced. It's like a big religion-themed house of cards or game of Jenga. It seems to be in slo-mo free fall nowadays.
The “continuing restoration” is the device necessary to cover up for the realization that the 2nd coming hasn’t happened. Let’s be honest, the way things have been talked about since the 1830’s, it seems we’re well past the date. Now the church needs an excuse to keep things going for as long as possible.
Remember the prophecy about those claiming Christ delays his coming? They are in bigger trouble when he shows up.
@@paulgregersen3570 Please, please, please come here first and show me that a 2nd coming has actually happened! I’ll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting……..
@@OuttaMyMind911 Not until all the prior prophecies all predicted all happen. The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem which is being planned now. The Jews have bought all the materials and drew up the plans. The Euphrates river must be completely dried up. Which is now literally happening in the news right now! The gospel must be preached in all nations which almost has happened. The fulfilling of Joseph Smith's restoration of the beast 666 being revealed by John 2,000 years ago just happened. See what Smith said that just led to its 666 fulfillment. Link UTube video titled ( BOA ep 16) by Gregersen to get there
I guarantee they will come up with plenty excuses, and stupid word twisting ones. The con and koolaid are real folks, sadly funny
The way it's playing out, I'm just assuming that "ongoing restoration" is a euphemism for "managed decline".
If restoration is ongoing with new revelation, you are condemning all those who lived prior to that new revelation. Jude 3 says, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” What was required for salvation in the first century is still true today. No need for ongoing revelation, or a restored gospel, just listen (read) the New Testament, a compilation of the words of Jesus, and things revealed to His apostles by the Holy Spirit of things brought to their remembrance of what Jesus taught them while He was with them. Jesus completed His work, to say otherwise makes God a liar. Hebrew 6:18, Titus 1:2
If the church is still changing, along with its doctrine, then it's not perfect and not true. It may be an organization in the process of becoming. But it's not there as they claim it is . JMO
God Gave us Survival Instincts and rules to help us curtail those instincts for the Good of All and Jesus..to show us How. The rest of the Bible is stories and hearsay. Joseph Smith just added more stories..to keep you all entertained! 😊❤
What happened to Christopher Nemelka and his Unsealed Portion post 2014? I suppose it’s out there somewhere.
This, and Matthew Gill's "The Chronicles of Children of Araneck" which even talks about Stonehenge.
THERE WAS A COMPLETE RESTORATION AND I WILL BE BAPTIZED
The current prophet does not teach that there was a complete restoration. He teaches that it is ongoing. I genuinely hope you put off the baptism to learn more about what you are joining, as it seems you don't understand...
@@MormonDiscussion No I'm Mister Brown from 62 minutes in. I laughed so hard! 🤣 I'm guessing this is Bill?
BYP got the last Loins in the chat! :)
So it is a fraud. I was taught that the gospel was lost after the biblical apostles died and Joseph Smith restored the lost doctrines and true Church of Jesus Christ. And now President Nelson says it wasn't fully restored. So that would constitute a fraud. When do i get a "restoration" of my tithing?
Is fruit of the loins a euphemism for garments?
Is it possible to learn somewhere how much Joseph Smith knew about Islam? It seems to me that he is taking heavily from the Muhammad playbook and changes subtly things he feels need optimization. Mormonism seems suspiciously too much as an iterative effort over the work of Muhammad in the 6th century to dismiss the paralell as a coincidence. For instance, someone who would want to improve on Muhammad's system would say: "You have the Rasuls (heads of dispensation) and the Nebi'un (ordinary prophets working within the dispensation). Why did Muhammad make himself the very last Rasul but also the very last Nabi? You can have other Nabi'un after the last Rasul. And so on. There are many more things I could mention that are like this. Are we absolutely sure that he had no exposure to the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad?
That picture of Nelson looks just like Judge Valkenheiser
According to God, no restoration is needed, throw away the Book of Mormon. Let's hear what God Himself says about this in: MATTHEW 16:18
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it..."
Jude 3
"Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints..."
There you are Mormons, no restoration is needed and no mention of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.
Classic Trek is indeed the best!
For a minute, I thought you were talking about the torture hike that the Church has its youth do ever year to mimic the handcart insanity that Brigham Young organized. Then I realized you were talking about Captain Kirk and crew.
Is President Nelson proposing that he is the Prophet of the restoration?
Pres Nelson---Ive been thinking of you, remember to send in your tithes. Always worship me because I am the profit...
"The Corporation of Rusty Nelson of the Latter-Day Frauds".
Got to grow that 200 billion dollar bank account.
😅Elder cook, members didn’t just eat their vitamins, they drank the kool aid...
Hey, RFM.
Is that a Bud Lite you're drinking?
ah yes, the pisswater. Personally I like the Utah local stuff.
😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫 😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫 😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫 😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫 😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫 😵💫 there was a complete restoration and I will be baptized 😵💫
That doesn't sound at all like someone desperately repeating a mantra over and over hoping to reinforce belief in the unbelievable.
Nelson is God’s prophet who already had a God complex.
Nelson is Satan's child
32:15 thanks Bruce. I’m reminder of brick in the movie Snatch when he said get your tongue 👅 out of my ass.
Nelson's vitamin-pill, ongoing restoration comments bothered me a lot, so I made a short tongue-in-cheek video about it a few years ago: th-cam.com/video/WFTlZDJqT_c/w-d-xo.html
I just saw your video so freakin brilliant!! 👏
@@MeToo-py1tq Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
You guys forget the fact that the kingdom would start as a small stone and roll forth and grow into the greater kingdom over time." Daniel 2 " And D&C said. The restoration was an on going growth process not a one time happening. Christ and his apostles started out with Israelites only and later brought gentles into the fold as the church grew into the next greater growth phase. The 12 had the fullness of that authority from the beginning but it expanded into gentiles later. This whole discussion is the real gas light grabbing at unimportant straws. Link UTube (BOA ep 16) to get the right perspective.
RFM kills me 🤣 (the one guy looks like an ORC from LOTR)
Have you seen President Nelson ? RFM is normal he makes sense, is humorous and witty, and not false.
i want my SPTV 😁👍
This topic is dishonest. The restoration is a slow process. And it’s outlined in scriptures. The Maxwell Institute is leading the church incorrectly.
How is the topic dishonest? We showed the church’s own materials including its missionary training materials from 1968
@Jehnon Johnson
th-cam.com/video/WFTlZDJqT_c/w-d-xo.html
The pale orc that gets off the boat in return of the king
😂