Thanks for this. I wasn't really sure what the race announcers were talking about. I think, for Fischer users at this level, they should get the manufacturer to make another model for icy conditions. It was ridiculous watching Linn Persson double poling in places. That she finished 5th and JTB 3rd on such skiis is a real testament to their skiing skill and power.
The fischers were better the day before though with Anna Magnusson and Linn Persson at the podium. It was interesting to see that it can differ so much.
Great review. Overall I find there’s no comparison reviews of consumer ski packages. Something as simple as “hill glide distance test” comparing different ski brands would make a huge difference for consumer. Or “3 pushes and glide” on a flat surface.
No need to apologize for the production quality on this one, it's a very good and informative video. I watched the women's race before the men's and I think the commentators were talking about the Fischer skis before they even started talking about the race. It made it fairly amusing to then watch the men's race and listen to the commentators speculate that Johannes Thingnes Boe was ill and that maybe he should drop out. I knew about the gliding sidewall on the Fischer skis since I own a pair, but mine are for classic, not skating. On the classic skis, there is still a pronounced edge, so I had no idea they rounded it off on skate skis. Back when I started skiing, "Salomon-type" bindings didn't yet exist, we mostly had 75 mm or 50 mm Nordic norm bindings and those were like shoes: different for right and left foot. Maybe they need to start making their skates skis in right/left pairs with a sharp edge on the inside, if there's still some advantage to having the outer edge rounded?
I'm really looking forward to your command on the W.C. In France, ski conditions and Norwegian success on both days😃it really was a pleasure to see it😀
Keep in mind that's not all about the skis, it's also attention and service that a skier receives from the manufacturer. Jonna Sundling switched from Fischer to Rossignol a couple of years ago. She didn't say it outright, but you sense that she got better service and quicker access to prototypes etc. from Rossi. She and Pellegrino probably have first pickings at Rossi, where as people like Ebba Andersson and Klæbo have first pickings at Fischer, and Diggins at Salomon.
Thanks for the insight - your perspective helps me understand this much better than the comments on the IBU broadcast and JT's interview. Is there no tech approach to try and mitigate this kind of disadvantage in these conditions?
I could be wrong, but I don't think the gliding sidewall has made Fischers less stable (they introduced the "new" edge cut way back with the release of the first SpeedMax). Rather, I just think that Fischer has failed to prioritize edge stability in their design process, stayed in roughly the same place, and has been surpassed by everyone else. Look at the major construction revisions released for each brand in the last decade: Rossignol - Introduced Bi-Edge insert on the X-ium Premium, adding torsional stiffness to an already famously stable platform. Salomon - Introduced Carbon Cap Construction, adding significant amounts of torsional stiffness and setting a new high water mark for edge control in Nordic Atomic - Introduced Carbon Cap Construction alongside Salomon, then released a completely new design with a freaking radial sidecut specifically for flat, icy conditions. Madshus - Introduced the Redline, which wrapped it's core in a woven fiberglass sleeve that provides considerable torsional stiffness. Based on feedback, added *additional* layups to aid lateral stability into the Redline 2.0/3.0. and then there's Fischer: Introduced the SpeedMax construction, which was a modified version of the 2000's era RCS that incorporated Cold Base Bonding, but notably *dropped* some of the changes from the Carbonlite. Added the 3D sidewall by applying very thin veneers to the (nonstructural) graphical sheet. Finally released a new major core revision this year as the SpeedMax Helium, but the jury is still out on how much improvement there's been to stability since production numbers have been low and very few people who are not tied to Fischer have actually gotten to test them for any length of time. I'm guessing it'll be better, but it's still the only ski that has no torsional support or stiffening inserts - it's all just air core and unidirectional carbon and glass running the length of the ski.
Fischers are very dominant in soft snow exactly because they aren't as stiff as the competition the gilde is unparalleled, but Rossignols have had the best white base ski since the late aughts. They were the superior ski in the Sotshi Olympics for example. Fischers are also better for light weight skiers while Rossignols and Salomons are especially good for heavier skiers.
Wow I really wonder what fischer skiers will do in future in these kind of conditions. I was thinking that they obviously had to test their skis prior, so they must have known what they were in for, so hats off to them: the show must go on. Because of their contracts, would it be an option to use an old pair of fischers as someone asked below?
Remember Skate Cuts, and the fake cuts that popped up on the WC as a result before they went back to 610's . Fischer can innovate themselves into interesting places. They recycle ideas too. I still have the waxable side wall race skis they offered in the 70's. There was twin strip mohair then as well.
It has been interesting reading the euro sports articles where the athletes are whining about the course conditions instead of recognizing the equipment setback.
@@lsta8088 Exactly. The track was not fit to race on as it was baiclly an ice rink with zero grip, just hard relentless ice just waiting to break a hand or two. It's just pure luck we didn't witness a career ending crash for someone yesterday.
Thank you so much for this video; exactly what I needed to know. I was worried about JTB’s health! During the women’s prize giving the Norwegian assistant coach as the tournament director about the tracks before the mens race and interrupted the start of the ceremony. JTB’s face showed anger and annoyance so my question is whether the track grooming also played a part?
I remember Tiril Eckhoff, a Fischer skier, making a comment a couple years back about being thankful the staff learned how to use the grooming machine. I think you're onto something and that different grooming would have changed things.
Skiers usually have around 10-20 pairs of skis they use, with a couple of them always being tested before the race and the other pairs staying home or with their maintenance team. Usually the oldest pairs are around 6 years old and the newest are the current year models. Every ski pair is unique and the best skis are usually reserved only for the Olympics and world championships and the worse are for bad conditions where the bases of skis could get damaged.
I’m a newbie so this might be a silly question: I have a pair of Atomic skis. They weren’t mentioned in your video, do many pro skiers use Atomic? It seems like a decent brand but maybe they’re not as popular or as big of a company?
Atomic is a high quality brand, just like Madshus, Rossignol, Salomon and Fischer, but they are much more known for their alpine skis, with Mikaela Shiffrin being their biggest name. Keep in mind that Atomic (from Austria) and Salomon (from France) are owned by the same parent company, Amer Sports from Finland. To my knowledge, Atomic does not have any biathletes under contract. Atomic is more prevelant on the cross-country skiing World Cup circuit. The overall women's World Cup winner Tiril Udnes Weng uses Atomic, as does her twin sister Lotta. Other well know Atomic skiers are Anne Kjersti Kalvå, Simen Krüger and Johanna Hagström. But just like Madshus, Atomic is still dwarfed by Salomon, Rossignol and Fischer when it comes to cross-country. Salomon on the other hand, are also known in Europe for for their high quality outdoor gear; shoes, clothes and backpacks, an area where Atomic has no presence. Salomon on the other hand has a small presence in the alpine market compared to Atomic.
Waxable P-tex sidewalls are NOT a new idea. My first pair of skate skis from 30 years ago had them: black Rossi Delta course. Great powder ski. Still have them. But, it’s a marketing gimmick. If you are skiing on your sidewalls, your technique leaves something to be desired. Okay, the sidewall does contact the snow at the end of a skate push, but the pressure is, to should be, all through the base of the side. Remember from your basic physics that dynamic (moving) friction is the coefficient of dynamic friction (which we try to make as small as possible with waxes and base structures) times the force, which is the push trough the base from the skier. As there should be none of that force through the sidewall, the friction from the sidewall should be near zero.
I’m a newbie so this might be a silly question: I have a pair of Atomic skis. They weren’t mentioned in your video, do many pro skiers use Atomic? It seems like a decent brand but maybe they’re not as popular or as big of a company?
Atomic and Salomon are both owned by Amer Sports and come from the same factory in Austria. Atomic has a smaller marketing budget than Salomon, so there are only a few pro skiers who use Atomic, most notably olympic gold medalist Simen Hegstad Krüger. Very good skis though.
Thanks, Brian. I couldn't find this explanation anywhere else.
This is why I do it 👍
Thanks for this. I wasn't really sure what the race announcers were talking about. I think, for Fischer users at this level, they should get the manufacturer to make another model for icy conditions. It was ridiculous watching Linn Persson double poling in places. That she finished 5th and JTB 3rd on such skiis is a real testament to their skiing skill and power.
Linn Persson double poling, AND in the process overtaking Anna Magnusson who was trying to skate...
The fischers were better the day before though with Anna Magnusson and Linn Persson at the podium. It was interesting to see that it can differ so much.
Great review.
Overall I find there’s no comparison reviews of consumer ski packages. Something as simple as “hill glide distance test” comparing different ski brands would make a huge difference for consumer.
Or “3 pushes and glide” on a flat surface.
thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. this is incredibly frustrating at this level. rip fischer marketing executives as well lmaooo
Ok Brian now post a video on tele hill descent with those Fischers! 🤣🤣
No need to apologize for the production quality on this one, it's a very good and informative video. I watched the women's race before the men's and I think the commentators were talking about the Fischer skis before they even started talking about the race. It made it fairly amusing to then watch the men's race and listen to the commentators speculate that Johannes Thingnes Boe was ill and that maybe he should drop out.
I knew about the gliding sidewall on the Fischer skis since I own a pair, but mine are for classic, not skating. On the classic skis, there is still a pronounced edge, so I had no idea they rounded it off on skate skis. Back when I started skiing, "Salomon-type" bindings didn't yet exist, we mostly had 75 mm or 50 mm Nordic norm bindings and those were like shoes: different for right and left foot. Maybe they need to start making their skates skis in right/left pairs with a sharp edge on the inside, if there's still some advantage to having the outer edge rounded?
I think of Fischer as the Apple of the ski world. I bet the release a cold ski with an edge now, forcing you to have to buy another pair of skis.🙄
Thank you for the information! I think Fischer will quickly come up with a solution for the icy ski conditions.
A partial metal edge ?
I'm really looking forward to your command on the W.C. In France, ski conditions and Norwegian success on both days😃it really was a pleasure to see it😀
Fascination. On the cross country side, I've noticed several skiers have moved from Fisher.
Keep in mind that's not all about the skis, it's also attention and service that a skier receives from the manufacturer. Jonna Sundling switched from Fischer to Rossignol a couple of years ago. She didn't say it outright, but you sense that she got better service and quicker access to prototypes etc. from Rossi. She and Pellegrino probably have first pickings at Rossi, where as people like Ebba Andersson and Klæbo have first pickings at Fischer, and Diggins at Salomon.
@@TheRedSphinx All excellent points.
Jonna switched because she wasn’t allowed to use alpina boots anymore, Fischer wants there skiers on full Fischer gears and the boots didn’t work.
Thanks for the insight - your perspective helps me understand this much better than the comments on the IBU broadcast and JT's interview. Is there no tech approach to try and mitigate this kind of disadvantage in these conditions?
Thanks for the insight. Was kind of amusing seeing professional skiers looking like Bambi on ice today. But I understand their frustration.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the gliding sidewall has made Fischers less stable (they introduced the "new" edge cut way back with the release of the first SpeedMax). Rather, I just think that Fischer has failed to prioritize edge stability in their design process, stayed in roughly the same place, and has been surpassed by everyone else. Look at the major construction revisions released for each brand in the last decade:
Rossignol - Introduced Bi-Edge insert on the X-ium Premium, adding torsional stiffness to an already famously stable platform.
Salomon - Introduced Carbon Cap Construction, adding significant amounts of torsional stiffness and setting a new high water mark for edge control in Nordic
Atomic - Introduced Carbon Cap Construction alongside Salomon, then released a completely new design with a freaking radial sidecut specifically for flat, icy conditions.
Madshus - Introduced the Redline, which wrapped it's core in a woven fiberglass sleeve that provides considerable torsional stiffness. Based on feedback, added *additional* layups to aid lateral stability into the Redline 2.0/3.0.
and then there's Fischer:
Introduced the SpeedMax construction, which was a modified version of the 2000's era RCS that incorporated Cold Base Bonding, but notably *dropped* some of the changes from the Carbonlite. Added the 3D sidewall by applying very thin veneers to the (nonstructural) graphical sheet. Finally released a new major core revision this year as the SpeedMax Helium, but the jury is still out on how much improvement there's been to stability since production numbers have been low and very few people who are not tied to Fischer have actually gotten to test them for any length of time. I'm guessing it'll be better, but it's still the only ski that has no torsional support or stiffening inserts - it's all just air core and unidirectional carbon and glass running the length of the ski.
Fischers are very dominant in soft snow exactly because they aren't as stiff as the competition the gilde is unparalleled, but Rossignols have had the best white base ski since the late aughts. They were the superior ski in the Sotshi Olympics for example. Fischers are also better for light weight skiers while Rossignols and Salomons are especially good for heavier skiers.
Nice rundown. Picked up some new Redlines last month and they are The Bomb!
Yeah What He Said 😅. Very good explanation and I even benefited from the other comment about what Ski handles significant Weight.
Wow I really wonder what fischer skiers will do in future in these kind of conditions. I was thinking that they obviously had to test their skis prior, so they must have known what they were in for, so hats off to them: the show must go on. Because of their contracts, would it be an option to use an old pair of fischers as someone asked below?
Not sure. But I gotta believe that idea is on the table.
Remember Skate Cuts, and the fake cuts that popped up on the WC as a result before they went back to 610's . Fischer can innovate themselves into interesting places. They recycle ideas too. I still have the waxable side wall race skis they offered in the 70's. There was twin strip mohair then as well.
Thanks for the explanation!
It has been interesting reading the euro sports articles where the athletes are whining about the course conditions instead of recognizing the equipment setback.
I think it's a combination of both
Because the conditions were horrendous. Cross country skiing is supposed to happen on snow and not ice after all.
@@lsta8088 Exactly. The track was not fit to race on as it was baiclly an ice rink with zero grip, just hard relentless ice just waiting to break a hand or two. It's just pure luck we didn't witness a career ending crash for someone yesterday.
Thanks for the insights. Really helpful
Quentin shot clean and only moved one position yesterday
The French did well overall in both pursuits, I'm assuming most of them ski on the native brands. Salomon is even located in Annecy, I believe.
I noticed exactly this, also the Fischer edges break more easily. Designed for perfection, not durability & versatility
Thank you so much for this video; exactly what I needed to know. I was worried about JTB’s health! During the women’s prize giving the Norwegian assistant coach as the tournament director about the tracks before the mens race and interrupted the start of the ceremony. JTB’s face showed anger and annoyance so my question is whether the track grooming also played a part?
his post-race demeanor was priceless.
I remember Tiril Eckhoff, a Fischer skier, making a comment a couple years back about being thankful the staff learned how to use the grooming machine. I think you're onto something and that different grooming would have changed things.
My Fischer RCS ski have always been crappy on icy trail conditions.
awesome overview & explanation. thanks for posting. Also- does that "P" on the skis represent they're sourced from Pioneer Midwest?
I would say Madshsus would be the best in those conditions since they are the easiest ski to edge on hard conditions.
thats why you see some of the athletes using previous years skis for certain courses
Is that west Yellowstone?
Great video
Fyi, These brands pay for their racers via their other brand segments such as Alpine sales. Madshus is the only brand that ONLY does cross country.
Redline F2 was made for those conditions.
Could they have used an older style Fisher with more edge. That is if they had sims with them?
Good question, not sure.
Skiers usually have around 10-20 pairs of skis they use, with a couple of them always being tested before the race and the other pairs staying home or with their maintenance team. Usually the oldest pairs are around 6 years old and the newest are the current year models. Every ski pair is unique and the best skis are usually reserved only for the Olympics and world championships and the worse are for bad conditions where the bases of skis could get damaged.
Rosi and Fisher, great skis!
I'm sorry to say, but I have the 61k skate and love it!! Very fun aggressive ski! Have you skied it?
I’m a newbie so this might be a silly question:
I have a pair of Atomic skis. They weren’t mentioned in your video, do many pro skiers use Atomic? It seems like a decent brand but maybe they’re not as popular or as big of a company?
Atomic is a high quality brand, just like Madshus, Rossignol, Salomon and Fischer, but they are much more known for their alpine skis, with Mikaela Shiffrin being their biggest name. Keep in mind that Atomic (from Austria) and Salomon (from France) are owned by the same parent company, Amer Sports from Finland.
To my knowledge, Atomic does not have any biathletes under contract. Atomic is more prevelant on the cross-country skiing World Cup circuit. The overall women's World Cup winner Tiril Udnes Weng uses Atomic, as does her twin sister Lotta. Other well know Atomic skiers are Anne Kjersti Kalvå, Simen Krüger and Johanna Hagström. But just like Madshus, Atomic is still dwarfed by Salomon, Rossignol and Fischer when it comes to cross-country.
Salomon on the other hand, are also known in Europe for for their high quality outdoor gear; shoes, clothes and backpacks, an area where Atomic has no presence.
Salomon on the other hand has a small presence in the alpine market compared to Atomic.
Waxable P-tex sidewalls are NOT a new idea. My first pair of skate skis from 30 years ago had them: black Rossi Delta course. Great powder ski. Still have them. But, it’s a marketing gimmick. If you are skiing on your sidewalls, your technique leaves something to be desired. Okay, the sidewall does contact the snow at the end of a skate push, but the pressure is, to should be, all through the base of the side. Remember from your basic physics that dynamic (moving) friction is the coefficient of dynamic friction (which we try to make as small as possible with waxes and base structures) times the force, which is the push trough the base from the skier. As there should be none of that force through the sidewall, the friction from the sidewall should be near zero.
Rossignol is the most stable ski on ice you can find.
No difference. They are all good. If you have possibility to test them before you will buy one of the pair. I prefer Fischer.
Salomon all the way ❤️❤️
Too bad you skiers to use PGA agents. The pro golfers wear the logo but the contract says they can play with any club and any ball they want.
I’m a newbie so this might be a silly question:
I have a pair of Atomic skis. They weren’t mentioned in your video, do many pro skiers use Atomic? It seems like a decent brand but maybe they’re not as popular or as big of a company?
Atomic and Salomon are both owned by Amer Sports and come from the same factory in Austria. Atomic has a smaller marketing budget than Salomon, so there are only a few pro skiers who use Atomic, most notably olympic gold medalist Simen Hegstad Krüger. Very good skis though.