It would be interesting to see what the benchmarks in strength & flexibility are for climbing per grade by gender. While it’s obvious that these are only a small section of what’s required to climb well. It would be informative for training & defining strengths & weaknesses. Are your fingers strong enough, are you explosive enough, etc.
There's a test which you can do at home which checks your finger strength, endurance, pulling strength and core strength. That test gives you an approx of your highest climbing grade with really good technique.
There is a benchmark I have for endurance. It is to be able to climb a route 1 grade down, 3 times in a row. If 8a is the goal, I would try and train to a point where I can climb a 7a route 3 times in a row without breaks
Gender makes a difference to the models but also your anthropometrics e.g. a 5'6" climber vs a 6'2" climber may display very different finger strength and flexibility for a given grade. Our remote assessments take all these key variables into account when your results are reported back to you and will indicate if you above or below the average levels for your goal grade.
An assesment can be useful, however, there's such a high amount of variables that it's barely accurate. Morphology has been evocated already in the comments, but you can add style of climbing too. The skills required to climb a powerful, 20m, granite "slopers and pinches" route are vastly different from a 40m, "crimps and edges" limestone endurance test piece. I've climbed with lots of differents climbers, lots of them climbed 8a or harder, and none of them compare to my caracteristics (and i climb in the 8th degree too) in any sense. There are, surely, broad caracteristics to 8a climbers, but individually, there's too many differences so that you can actually make an assesment. My "method" to try to understand what type of training i should do, is to create a two entry table with routes/boulders tried (sent or not) in rows, and "problem encountered" or "what was hard" in columns. For example, i tried this 8a and the crux move on a undercling was hard for me : i add an "undercling" column and make a tick in that. I try to do this for the whole season, and you end up with columns that have more ticks than others : body positionning, dyno, crimp, endurance, whatever. This usually is a good base to start a training plan.
Nice compact video! Josh mentioned it quite casually te impact of where we are based and the amount of outdoor climbing days. For me this haas been a profound realisation. Living in the Netherlands is defiantly holding my climbing back 😅 so time to move! Create input from Rhos about conditions and picking the right route! And holy smoked 100th 8a! Thats super impressive! Planning to tik my first one this fall.
really depends on where in the Netherlands you live, the Ardennes have 8a and higher and could only be an hour of driving away. Frankenjura, Etteringen and Font aren't that far off either, at least close enough that you could spend your weekends there
@LordPizzaJunkie @Frank Heiser Agree! Living in the Netherlands shouldn't hold you back. It's only a little more commitment driving to the crags in Belgium or Luxembourg in the weekends. You should check out Amir's channel, a Dutchie who is pushing it into the 8th grade. We've spent almost all weekends outdoors last winter and spring: th-cam.com/users/AmirNickname
@@MaxRuys95 @LordPizzaJunkie First of cool that you take the time to write a replay. Giving a example of one person who makes it work really doesn't have that much to do with me. Also I didn't rely ask for input on whether to move or not ;) the choice has been made! Having lived in the FJ I can say that for me it makes a huge difference if I drive 45 min to the crag or 7 hours. Also it's worth to considering that just because there are 8a's in Belgium and Luxemburg doesn't meen they get my psyched to try them. For me personally once I climbed in places like Siurana, Margalef, Kalymnos, Canmore etc spending all my weekend in the same small crag just isn't motivating for me. there is also the infiromental consideration about travelling 3 or 4 time a year by plane or car to go climbing and driving multiple hours every weekend. Tis all has a huge impact. Also it add quite a bit of pressure training for 3 month to a 2 week trip to then perform opposed to being able to project on several prime routes over the whole season. So yeah its a bit more complicated the just hoping in the car and driving to LU, BE or DE every weekend. Cheers
I like how you address strategies and tactics versus 'training' in this video!! I 100% believe that sport climbing and bouldering at least one 8A is an acheivable lifetime goal for the majority of climbers if they are consistent and have the right mindset. However, being able to send 8A quicky (i.e. several goes, single day, one or two sessions) is a different story!
Exactly, I feel like everyone who takes climbing seriously as a sport can get there. At the same time, I think tryhards such as myself have a very different view of what "taking seriously" means. I try to adress my weaknesses, sometimes do the climbs I dont want to do, fall a lot, train consistently 3 times a week, do mild strength training etc. Like if you want it, you will get it, but its not gonna be easy. I feel like between 8a and 8b+ lies the PEAK of what an average recreational climber can achieve in their lifetime.
Its funny though, how most people seek the easiest 8a, move wise. I feel like Im in a minority of people looking for an 8a which has a 7A or 7A+ (V6 or V7) crux or maybe two, and the rest is fairly easy. To me, getting pumped out on a 30 meter consistent V3 climbing sounds like a nightmare.
Yes, it’s especially funny when you look at Marathon finishing times and see the peaks at 3 hours, 3h30m and 4 hours (or the times corresponding to a 4:00 minute/km pace, 4:30 minute/km pace and so on). Humans love round numbers.
You absolutely have to train for 8a. I am nearing that grade as well at the moment and whereas I am HORRIBLE at consistent structured training plans and sticking to stuff, all of my gym sessions consist of hard projecting either on rope, on the mats or on a moonboard. I dont have any logic to these but Id say only 1 in 15 sessions is a "chill one" for me. So yea, you need to train for 8a, you call it that or you just call it climbing.
To say that an 8a (13b) is comprised of many v3/v4 moves is hugely specific to the area of climbing. Many of the 8a climbs in my area are short and powerful, with cruxes that are v7 or v8, and then maybe the rest of the route is v4 or under. Seems like Rhos is talking only about power endurance routes in the comment at 2:05. Great video though and very appreciated.
Yes exactly. Rhos is saying that you can get routes where the moves don't get that hard. The point is, if you search for the right route you can find one that suits endurance or strength. Many people might think you need to climb V9 or even V10 to be able to do an 8a route, but climbers have still reached 8a without bouldering nearly this hard.
We've got' how to climb 7C' coming out in a couple weeks. We thought this grade was in a similar boundary to f8a. Though I did this video with Jonny Kydd so it applies to 8A too ;)
A little off topic, but how do you like the fit of the Newtros? My heel doesn't always get to the bottom of downturned shoes, but I really like the slight downturn on those shoes. It's the one thing I wish my Anasazi Pinks had. Thanks.
I've always struggled to get my heel into the bottom of 5.10 shoes, particularly the Anasazi. NewTro Lace is the best heel fit I have found with a subtle downturn that still smears well. My absolute favourite shoe now! Best all-rounder for heel hooking and technical footwork.
Been climbing 5 years, stuck at 6c Sport/V4 boulder. Started at age 46, so clearly I am limited in the volume I can train specifically for climbing. Id really love to get to 7a+ as a lifetime goal. The problem is, most training programs are for younger people ( like my daughter ) that progressed much quicker to a higher level and want to get to double digit boulders and 8a sport climbing level.
Great work Doug, its never too later to start! Any personalised training plan (like ours) will take into account your training history and personal details. Avoid cookie cutter style plans if you are at all concerned about the training volume.
@@billr5842 proper training plan and health are needed here as well, at that level injuries can come quite easy and stay for a long time... 8a is a quite high goal for majority of people (especially later starters)
to me 8a seems so far away from achievable... I am climbing 7a/7a+ with an occasional 7b but cant achieve anything better... as soon as I try to push for more, it tends to get so bad with finger joint pain, or other issues with shoulders, knees, I simply have to stop until it gets better and therefore constantly balancing at the same level already for years
One thing I would check in with, if you feel you are prone to injury when trying to climb harder, is if you have a good foundation in strength and conditioning. Climbing at an elite level requires every climber to be a well conditioned general athlete first. They need strong muscles, healthy joints and a good recovery capacity. This comes from years of hangboarding and time spent in the gym. Some people might be able to skip this stuff and just climb, seemingly to never get injured. However most people need to put in a lot of background work to support their capacity and recovery.
Can anyone help me understand why after I climb, the next morning my hands are weak for the first 10 minutes I wake up… I assume this is just my body recovering and I am a relatively new climber. Started climbing a few times a week back in April so I’m curious, is this going to eventually stop happening when my fingers get acclimated to hard climbs? (V6/7 range now) or is there anything I can do so my hands don’t feel so weak? I feel like it’s effecting my climbs
Are you getting pins and needles? Maybe get some rehab putty and try to rest more days, it sounds like you're getting tendon overuse issues. If you're new to climbing your tendons will longer to acclimatise to climbing than your muscles.
Not sure I totally agree about building the pyramid. I think one should be wary of getting too stuck on 8a, but one should also not be afraid of having some serious attempts on the grade even without such a pyramid. I say this as I climbed 8a without having climbed 7c+. The 8a took 7 attempts, and before that I took 10 days unsuccessfully projecting a 7c at the same crag (also note I'm 6'3 though, so grades are less meaningful for me than a more average height climber).
Yes great point. A pyramid is not always needed and I think this reinforces Rhos's point about "pick the right one". The 8a you sent was well suited to you and perhaps the 7c was not? Maybe that had more to do with it than building the pyramid?
@@LatticeTraining There's nothing special about 8a. It's harder than 7c+, that's all. (although some 7c+ routes can be harder!) Climb 7c's and 7c+'s and you're ready to hop on 8a
@@DanZeeviNothing special? For some people climbing 8a is a very special achievement and represents a benchmark with grandeur. Climbing is full of arbitrary benchmarks that get people excited and motivated. To remove these bigger benchmarks might put things back into perspective (e.g. its only harder than 7c+) but to me it looses some of the romanticism climbing can have. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps we need more realism, but it seems much less fun ;)
@@LatticeTraining I do agree, and I felt the same around 7a and 8a when I started climbing. My point is that although it's great to pursue maximizing your personal best, people get obsessed with grades. I remember reading an article in a climbing magazine which had a similar title: "How did I manage to climb 8a?" And the writer expained his "secret": climbing a lot of 7b+'s, 7c's, and 7c+'s, and finally, sending his 8a project. There is only an aura around the grade, in the end it's another hard route you're climbing and working hard to send. We should remind climbers to enjoy climbing and the process!
![ร้อยพ่อพันแม่ - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY2pNYASEbg/mqdefault.jpg)
One week ago I climbed my first 8a
Woohoo congratulations Florian!
gg
Woah did you read my mind? Focused on my first proper 8A project right now - let’s go
It would be interesting to see what the benchmarks in strength & flexibility are for climbing per grade by gender.
While it’s obvious that these are only a small section of what’s required to climb well. It would be informative for training & defining strengths & weaknesses.
Are your fingers strong enough, are you explosive enough, etc.
There's a test which you can do at home which checks your finger strength, endurance, pulling strength and core strength. That test gives you an approx of your highest climbing grade with really good technique.
Power company climbing have some interesting charts about benchmark finger strength and pull up strength
There is a benchmark I have for endurance. It is to be able to climb a route 1 grade down, 3 times in a row. If 8a is the goal, I would try and train to a point where I can climb a 7a route 3 times in a row without breaks
Gender makes a difference to the models but also your anthropometrics e.g. a 5'6" climber vs a 6'2" climber may display very different finger strength and flexibility for a given grade. Our remote assessments take all these key variables into account when your results are reported back to you and will indicate if you above or below the average levels for your goal grade.
An assesment can be useful, however, there's such a high amount of variables that it's barely accurate. Morphology has been evocated already in the comments, but you can add style of climbing too. The skills required to climb a powerful, 20m, granite "slopers and pinches" route are vastly different from a 40m, "crimps and edges" limestone endurance test piece. I've climbed with lots of differents climbers, lots of them climbed 8a or harder, and none of them compare to my caracteristics (and i climb in the 8th degree too) in any sense. There are, surely, broad caracteristics to 8a climbers, but individually, there's too many differences so that you can actually make an assesment.
My "method" to try to understand what type of training i should do, is to create a two entry table with routes/boulders tried (sent or not) in rows, and "problem encountered" or "what was hard" in columns. For example, i tried this 8a and the crux move on a undercling was hard for me : i add an "undercling" column and make a tick in that. I try to do this for the whole season, and you end up with columns that have more ticks than others : body positionning, dyno, crimp, endurance, whatever. This usually is a good base to start a training plan.
Nice compact video! Josh mentioned it quite casually te impact of where we are based and the amount of outdoor climbing days. For me this haas been a profound realisation. Living in the Netherlands is defiantly holding my climbing back 😅 so time to move!
Create input from Rhos about conditions and picking the right route! And holy smoked 100th 8a! Thats super impressive! Planning to tik my first one this fall.
really depends on where in the Netherlands you live, the Ardennes have 8a and higher and could only be an hour of driving away. Frankenjura, Etteringen and Font aren't that far off either, at least close enough that you could spend your weekends there
@LordPizzaJunkie @Frank Heiser Agree! Living in the Netherlands shouldn't hold you back. It's only a little more commitment driving to the crags in Belgium or Luxembourg in the weekends. You should check out Amir's channel, a Dutchie who is pushing it into the 8th grade. We've spent almost all weekends outdoors last winter and spring: th-cam.com/users/AmirNickname
@@MaxRuys95 @LordPizzaJunkie
First of cool that you take the time to write a replay.
Giving a example of one person who makes it work really doesn't have that much to do with me. Also I didn't rely ask for input on whether to move or not ;) the choice has been made!
Having lived in the FJ I can say that for me it makes a huge difference if I drive 45 min to the crag or 7 hours.
Also it's worth to considering that just because there are 8a's in Belgium and Luxemburg doesn't meen they get my psyched to try them. For me personally once I climbed in places like Siurana, Margalef, Kalymnos, Canmore etc spending all my weekend in the same small crag just isn't motivating for me.
there is also the infiromental consideration about travelling 3 or 4 time a year by plane or car to go climbing and driving multiple hours every weekend. Tis all has a huge impact.
Also it add quite a bit of pressure training for 3 month to a 2 week trip to then perform opposed to being able to project on several prime routes over the whole season.
So yeah its a bit more complicated the just hoping in the car and driving to LU, BE or DE every weekend.
Cheers
I like how you address strategies and tactics versus 'training' in this video!! I 100% believe that sport climbing and bouldering at least one 8A is an acheivable lifetime goal for the majority of climbers if they are consistent and have the right mindset. However, being able to send 8A quicky (i.e. several goes, single day, one or two sessions) is a different story!
Exactly, I feel like everyone who takes climbing seriously as a sport can get there. At the same time, I think tryhards such as myself have a very different view of what "taking seriously" means. I try to adress my weaknesses, sometimes do the climbs I dont want to do, fall a lot, train consistently 3 times a week, do mild strength training etc. Like if you want it, you will get it, but its not gonna be easy. I feel like between 8a and 8b+ lies the PEAK of what an average recreational climber can achieve in their lifetime.
There are people plagued by injuries or a fear of falling who’d love to climb hard but can’t.
Can’t wait to implement some of this
Its funny though, how most people seek the easiest 8a, move wise. I feel like Im in a minority of people looking for an 8a which has a 7A or 7A+ (V6 or V7) crux or maybe two, and the rest is fairly easy. To me, getting pumped out on a 30 meter consistent V3 climbing sounds like a nightmare.
It depends on what you're good at
"Easy" 8a is like sustained v4 w/ v5-7 crux.
It’s interesting how we base our expectations of how hard a grade is based off of the scale we use to rate our climbs.
Yes, it’s especially funny when you look at Marathon finishing times and see the peaks at 3 hours, 3h30m and 4 hours (or the times corresponding to a 4:00 minute/km pace, 4:30 minute/km pace and so on). Humans love round numbers.
My top tip for climbing 8a: Be a skinny beanpole, it's a huge help :)
You would not cook an omelet without eggs, basically 😜
Perfect ;) need this for sure!
You absolutely have to train for 8a. I am nearing that grade as well at the moment and whereas I am HORRIBLE at consistent structured training plans and sticking to stuff, all of my gym sessions consist of hard projecting either on rope, on the mats or on a moonboard. I dont have any logic to these but Id say only 1 in 15 sessions is a "chill one" for me. So yea, you need to train for 8a, you call it that or you just call it climbing.
If I trained hard all the time I’d have an injury in no time.
You wouldn't eat 3 shredded wheat without eating the first two first would you
To say that an 8a (13b) is comprised of many v3/v4 moves is hugely specific to the area of climbing. Many of the 8a climbs in my area are short and powerful, with cruxes that are v7 or v8, and then maybe the rest of the route is v4 or under. Seems like Rhos is talking only about power endurance routes in the comment at 2:05. Great video though and very appreciated.
Yes exactly. Rhos is saying that you can get routes where the moves don't get that hard. The point is, if you search for the right route you can find one that suits endurance or strength. Many people might think you need to climb V9 or even V10 to be able to do an 8a route, but climbers have still reached 8a without bouldering nearly this hard.
How to boulder 8a coming soon?
We've got' how to climb 7C' coming out in a couple weeks. We thought this grade was in a similar boundary to f8a. Though I did this video with Jonny Kydd so it applies to 8A too ;)
@@LatticeTraining Knew it! Psyched for it. I'll keep my eye out!
A little off topic, but how do you like the fit of the Newtros? My heel doesn't always get to the bottom of downturned shoes, but I really like the slight downturn on those shoes. It's the one thing I wish my Anasazi Pinks had. Thanks.
I've always struggled to get my heel into the bottom of 5.10 shoes, particularly the Anasazi. NewTro Lace is the best heel fit I have found with a subtle downturn that still smears well. My absolute favourite shoe now! Best all-rounder for heel hooking and technical footwork.
729x f7as is a bit too shallow pyramid in my opinion 😅
Been climbing 5 years, stuck at 6c Sport/V4 boulder. Started at age 46, so clearly I am limited in the volume I can train specifically for climbing. Id really love to get to 7a+ as a lifetime goal. The problem is, most training programs are for younger people ( like my daughter ) that progressed much quicker to a higher level and want to get to double digit boulders and 8a sport climbing level.
Great work Doug, its never too later to start! Any personalised training plan (like ours) will take into account your training history and personal details. Avoid cookie cutter style plans if you are at all concerned about the training volume.
@@LatticeTraining Ok great - I am looking at your site now!
I believe with enough dedication you could get to 8a. It really depends on how much you prioritize climbing
@@billr5842 proper training plan and health are needed here as well, at that level injuries can come quite easy and stay for a long time... 8a is a quite high goal for majority of people (especially later starters)
I got my first 8a today 🎉
Congratulations!
I did my first 8a's a week ago after 4,5 years of climbing (i'm 15 now). How hard will it be to reach the 9a level as a non-professional climber?
Oh wow. At 15 it's an amazing result dude. I think that you will be able to climb a 9a in 5 years easily! Good luck
I would love to see a version of this for bouldering. 7C or 8A?
Out next week ;)
to me 8a seems so far away from achievable... I am climbing 7a/7a+ with an occasional 7b but cant achieve anything better... as soon as I try to push for more, it tends to get so bad with finger joint pain, or other issues with shoulders, knees, I simply have to stop until it gets better and therefore constantly balancing at the same level already for years
One thing I would check in with, if you feel you are prone to injury when trying to climb harder, is if you have a good foundation in strength and conditioning. Climbing at an elite level requires every climber to be a well conditioned general athlete first. They need strong muscles, healthy joints and a good recovery capacity. This comes from years of hangboarding and time spent in the gym. Some people might be able to skip this stuff and just climb, seemingly to never get injured. However most people need to put in a lot of background work to support their capacity and recovery.
Where are these v3/4 8a’s. In USA, our 8a’s have multiple v6/7 boulder problems on top of 7a+ sport moves
Not true
Can anyone help me understand why after I climb, the next morning my hands are weak for the first 10 minutes I wake up… I assume this is just my body recovering and I am a relatively new climber. Started climbing a few times a week back in April so I’m curious, is this going to eventually stop happening when my fingers get acclimated to hard climbs? (V6/7 range now) or is there anything I can do so my hands don’t feel so weak? I feel like it’s effecting my climbs
look into synovitis
Are you getting pins and needles? Maybe get some rehab putty and try to rest more days, it sounds like you're getting tendon overuse issues. If you're new to climbing your tendons will longer to acclimatise to climbing than your muscles.
Not sure I totally agree about building the pyramid. I think one should be wary of getting too stuck on 8a, but one should also not be afraid of having some serious attempts on the grade even without such a pyramid.
I say this as I climbed 8a without having climbed 7c+. The 8a took 7 attempts, and before that I took 10 days unsuccessfully projecting a 7c at the same crag (also note I'm 6'3 though, so grades are less meaningful for me than a more average height climber).
*Thanks for the vid and all the great content from Lattice - much good advice to be found of course.
Yes great point. A pyramid is not always needed and I think this reinforces Rhos's point about "pick the right one". The 8a you sent was well suited to you and perhaps the 7c was not? Maybe that had more to do with it than building the pyramid?
How to climb 8a: step 1: climb 3 7c+. Well thanks!
Haha! It seems obvious I know, but many people do skip this grade!
Or... just pick a route graded 8a and try to climb it until you get it
Ah, the good old siege tactic!
@@LatticeTraining There's nothing special about 8a. It's harder than 7c+, that's all. (although some 7c+ routes can be harder!) Climb 7c's and 7c+'s and you're ready to hop on 8a
@@DanZeeviNothing special? For some people climbing 8a is a very special achievement and represents a benchmark with grandeur. Climbing is full of arbitrary benchmarks that get people excited and motivated. To remove these bigger benchmarks might put things back into perspective (e.g. its only harder than 7c+) but to me it looses some of the romanticism climbing can have. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps we need more realism, but it seems much less fun ;)
@@LatticeTraining I do agree, and I felt the same around 7a and 8a when I started climbing. My point is that although it's great to pursue maximizing your personal best, people get obsessed with grades. I remember reading an article in a climbing magazine which had a similar title: "How did I manage to climb 8a?" And the writer expained his "secret": climbing a lot of 7b+'s, 7c's, and 7c+'s, and finally, sending his 8a project. There is only an aura around the grade, in the end it's another hard route you're climbing and working hard to send. We should remind climbers to enjoy climbing and the process!
@@DanZeevi Yes, too right! The process is what matters most!