ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Masahiro Sakurai's hold on the platform fighter genre seems inescapable, and with the release of so many "smash clones", I began to question how that could be after 25 years since the release of the first Super Smash Brothers game. Rivals of Aether 2 is coming soon and I hope that this video sheds some light on how awesome it's going to be, while also demonstrating how to break away from the chains of Smash bros.
Editor's Note at 12:53 - Rivals of Aether's most popular year was 2022 at Genesis 8, not 2016
Sakurai's Channel@sora_sakurai_en: / @sora_sakurai_en
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
02:07 - The Genius of Sakurai
05:13 - The Platform Fighter Problem
08:57 - Why We're Stuck With Smash
14:22 - Sakurai's Vision
16:08 - Conclusion - เกม
![ความรักของยักษ์เขียว (ทศกัณฐ์) - เดี่ยว ไออุ่น [OFFICIAL MUSICVIDEO 4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yCCy-QVHqK8/mqdefault.jpg)
funnily enough rivals was actually my gateway into fighting games and competition as a whole, I used to be a smash kid who only ever played against friends and bots since the online was a paid subscription and terrible anyway, I initially tried rivals for the modded content because I wanted to play as or make any character I could imagine, but then I realized "wait the original characters are kinda cool actually" --> "hey the online is pretty good and it's free" --> "oh there's a matchmaking discord for my region that runs biweekly tournaments" --> "wait when did I get 500 hours on the game". Rivals was a game that made me interested in competing where smash didn't even though I didn't have any friends who played it, simply by being a very inviting game to compete in (characters and mechanics that incentivize you to grind them, really in depth tutorials and a great online experience) and I was able to get to know a lot of awesome people thanks to it, it even got me into traditional fighters since it showed me how fun it could be to compete, rivals is for me what smash is to smash players
he put rivals in the ones that “never really stuck” but I'd say its the only one that understood smash while making it its own thing
Rivals to me is also smash to other people, it annoys me that rivals of aether is treated like a worse version of smash bros
“Wait the original characters are kinda cool actually”
It’s sad to me that so many people don’t give the original characters on the Rivals workshop a go. You’re incredibly based for enjoying the Rivals OC characters
@@Taktaagic with "original characters" i meant the vanilla cast but i love all the workshop ocs too, epinel, monarch and wes are some of my favorite fighting game characters ever and i'm sad they're stuck in delay based workshop hell
Smash isn’t about playing the best platform Fighter. It’s about playing Smash.
Not in sakurais eye even though he put sora instead of waluigi
@@official_nathanyt1490Sora was the most requested character in smash 4 who only got denied due to legal issues his ass has pretty much always been the most requested as well. Waluigi is more a joke idea at this point considering he is literally just wario's tennis partner 💀
If it was about being the best part for fighter, that easily be Rivals 2
building an L to screenshot is the best fighting game combo ever
Can't even fathom the mental damage that would do to somebody
@@qmanchuit's unreal the amount of BM some Ult players can put out when motivated
I think the biggest reason no platform fighter can reach the popularity of Smash is because it *isn't* Smash. Smash is popular because it's a massive crossover of video game icons you've known all your life. NASB and Multiversus also tried going for the crossover aspect of marketing, but couldn't find a foothold due to generally being considered inferior games.
Other plat-fighters also lack a casual draw. No Smash player started playing competitively immediately. Items, insane stage hazards and big fun moves are why people fell in love with Smash initially, and most platform fighters aim exclusively for a competitive audience. Of course they won't get the same numbers, they're aiming for a niche inside of a niche. Rivals tried to solve this problem with the inclusion of Workshop, and to an extent it worked. More people were playing the game, and it even got a bunch of online recognition. Look at all the TH-camrs that covered it. Dunkey, Carson... However, including the aforementioned content creators, people were playing exclusively Workshop over the actual game, and was instead widely looked at as a platform fighter Mugen instead (ignore the pinned comment that completely contradicts me). The next big platform fighter needs to find a way to unify casual and competitive audiences the way Smash could.
This offers great insight into the casual appeal. You're right about workshop being the biggest draw for people as opposed to the game itself, I hadn't even considered that
@@qmanchuI genuinely think the lack of workshop will make Rivals less popular than 1. Rivals 1 had a good casual thing going that 2 either won't have or will not be as good at
Rivals 2 is probably not going to take over the genre, but, it's still going to be hell of a game to compete in, and I can't wait!
Same, the game looks nuts. What really sold me was the pummel, get up, and ledge specials. What a crazy idea to implement. Characters look so fun to experiment with
I hope it does, smash ult isn't even fun man and melee is too hard to get into. It's time for a new game in the series that actually gets taken seriously and support from it's own devs.
@@Huckle777smash ult is fun but I think it'll appeal more to people who's first game was not Melee. If your first was melee I really don't you will like anything else, even PM
Can rivals just be a series that lives alongside smash bros like MK and SF, no competition
@@cosmic5665maybe, who knows
About Fullstreams comment at 10:10...
"Why wouldn't you want a more fast-paced game?"
Ask a Street Fighter player why they prefer their game over Dragonball FighterZ.
Not every platform fighter has to be this ultra-fast paced attempt at recapturing Melees speed. It's fine for Rivals and Nick All-Stars to try and capture that, but I hope more upcoming platform fighters try out more things.
I really liked what PS All-Stars tried for example. Traditional fighting game combos mixed with platform fighter movement and stage design was so fun for me.
I'm hoping more companies give platform fighters a chance and try unique things, be it an anime crossover by Bandai Namco or Microsoft trying their hand at it.
Yeah I totally agree with you here! Smash 4 was personally my favorite inclusion of the series (weird take, I know). I liked that the game could slow down and become more about pokes than combos.
But it was the second part of his statement that resonated with me, the "responsive" part. I would love Ultimate, if it had the responsive qualities of Sm4sh but it controls so poorly.
I think as long as a game controls in a way that feels intended and lets players move around freely, it'll be better than games that don't. PS All Stars was a great idea but I think it also struggled slightly with this aspect in that it was a bit slow and heavy without having the responsiveness it should've. I also might be remembering that wrong though cuz that was ps3 era haha
I agree that not everything has to be super fast but as long as there isn’t something as fast as melee, people will never switch off of it because melee is the only game that allows for players to express themselves to that degree of speed.
As long as melee is unique, people will continue playing it. And I don’t think it’s a re-creatable game so I think it will always be unique. Pretty much the entire game as we know it now was an accident and I don’t think it’s possible to deliberately make something as great.
And I mean even before getting to trying to copy the more in depth elements you have to somehow copy the one of a kind amazing feeling movement sakurai made.
I think another reason why smash is mostly successful compared to other platform fighters is because of what smash has. It has Adventure Mode with them long legit platform levels like in melee and brawl, Break The Targets, Home-Run Contest, Coin Battle, and more. It doesn't mostly rely on the fighting aspect with platforming in it, something that most platform fighters are doing for some reason, which probably puts more replayability when it comes to its content being more than just fighting on platforms.
Gonna be 100, as someone who loves SSE those adventure levels range from 7/10 to 1/10, the Great Mass gotta be one of the most hellish levels in any game 💀
@@illford6921 well, at least the game provides the platforming part in "platform fighter", like there's parkour most of the time and fighting being a choice (unless if on some specifc part of a level where u need to fight in order to progress), instead of the usual fighting with platforms and the fighting is done more than platforming.
I think the main aspect of smash this video didn't cover (and many other videos don't cover) is the fact that the majority of the smash community ISN'T the competitive scene. The smash bros competitive community makes up around 5% of the player base. The 95% of the community are "casuals" who just want a party game to play that everyone can understand. All the footage taken is from that 5%. All the points made from the video is basically asking, "why is the 5% smash community even smaller in other platform fighters". The visible smash community that you see on Twitter or TH-cam is that 5%. Smash "clones" or platform fighters tend to market themselves to the 5% and not the 95%. I disagree with using Genesis data in order to prove your point; because, that data is a very small sample size of that 5%. Brawlhalla is still popular to this day because it's appealing to that 95%, casual marketplace. Multiversus (when it first came out) was also appealing to casuals imo in concept. Rivals has a lot of work that it tried to do to appeal to casuals (workshop, storymode) but it wasn't enough. This 95% 5% split is something every game ever has. From FPS like Valorant to MOBAs like League, the majority playerbase of most games are casuals and are under or around Gold rank. It just depends if new games/companies want to market towards the casuals or the niche that is competitive games.
I agree with you but I also fear you may have missed the point. I specifically mention that Sakurai's appeals to the casual side of the game are why it's so big and loved and all that.
But this video is about how that translates to competition specifically.
There's games that do exactly what the competitive scene wants AND has great casual appeal but they'll never see the success of smash for various reasons. This video is about the competitive scene and all the questions I asked specifically are framed with them in mind.
The reason nobody on YT is speaking about that 95% in the way you're talking about is because they're not the ones watching these types of videos lol.
I used Genesis data specifically because Rivals is a game aimed at the competitive side of smash. And yet it still can lose to Smash 64 which came out 25 years ago.
This game is giving EVERYTHING the 5% is asking for and yet less than 1%, of them are migrating to it. That's just strange until you consider the point you bring up. Casual play and appeal is what brought them here just like the other 95%. And it's the reason they stay with smash (in my opinion). So I agree with you but the framing of my video is different than you interpreted it
If those percentages are true, then the competitive Smash players needs to shut the hell up and stop acting as if Nintendo needs to cater to them as if competitive Smash was the most important thing in the world.
@Ability-King-KK
It really isn't.
The best selling entry prior to Ultimate's Release was Brawl, and that Game heavily moved away from any sort of legitimate competition.
@@user-be3qc7re9oPart of it can be related to Brawl being released on a much more popular system
@@Ability-King-KK That's a huge strength of Smash though. Being able to be appealed by players of all styles. There's a reason why Sakurai doesn't look all too fondly at Melee or Brawl, seeing them as opposite extreme ends
As an aspiring indie fighting game dev heavily influenced by Smash, here's some things I think are worth adding:
1. One of my own frustrations is that nothing matches the game feel of Smash's movement. It's got that Nintendo platformer juice that no other platform fighter compares to. As it turns out, platformer-style movement is REALLY difficult to design and make feel good. Sakurai is one of the few people who knows how to make good-feeling platformer movement and amazing combat feel.
2. A lot of folks who grew up with Smash didn't see its own biggest inspiration: King of Fighters. The focus on precise jumping to mix up approaches, the KoF out-of-bounds mechanic being made a focus, every normal being a command normal, etc. Smash genuinely innovated on SnK's philosophy of gameplay.
3. Smash was design for the Nintendo 64 controller. It had one great strength: the analog stick, which allowed for precise movement and Sakurai's new smash input. It also had a restriction: a hierarchical button layout that made accessing anything but the A and B buttons take more effort. Smash maximizes the use of the analog stick while making the most out of the button layout restrictions.
Marvelous breakdown of points I didn't include. I never really thought about the platforming element you mentioned but you're right. Every game that "recreates" the feeling of smash platforming feels hollow in comparison. Rivals included
NASB 2 feels VERY close to Ultimate
This is a great comment that talks about points people don't bring up much, however I'd like to make some corrections specifically about point 2, knocking opponents into blast zones in smash was actually inspired by a Japanese game called Ohajiki which is similar to marbles and also the Out of Bounds mechanic you're referring to isn't a KOF thing but instead something from Real Bout Fatal Fury.
@RadRedBomber never heard of Ohajiki but sounds interesting. And it's funny cuz I was just playing Fatal Fury the other day as Blue Mary and was thinking about doing a video about Out of Bounds or stage hazards in fighting games. This is inspiration to look into that more
@@RadRedBomberOh dang I didn't know that! And you're right I got KoF and FF confused lol. Definitely gonna check out Ohajiki now!
EDIT: Didn't realize Ohajiki was a children's table game lol. My fault for skimming. Still interesting lol
My gut feeling is that Smash Ult won't be the last game for the series. Given how hugely popular it is and also how profitable it is for Nintendo as well to move console units, I can ensure you once the next console happens we'll either see Smash 6, or a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe moment happening with the series. Whether Sakurai is heading it or not, I'm all but sure it's a matter of not if but when it returns.
Yeah there's NO WAY Nintendo is going to let the series die. They will keep making Smash Bros. games whether Sakurai wants it or not, and the only reason Sakurai keeps coming back is because he feels they don't be able to make a successful Smash game without him.
Sakurai needs to mentor a successor, he isn’t gonna be spearheading smash forever.
I think, on top of smash being one of first games of its kind. It also has characters people know and have grown up with. ALSO on top of that, it being a very polished game with tons of money being pumped into it.
I think it is about time that a platform fighter should come out that puts more emphasis on the “platformer” part rather than the “fighter” aspect.
I also wished Sakurai saw space for a new Smash with very expressive advanced techniques. I think it’s possible to have a high skill ceiling and low skill floor. Hell, I think casuals would find stuff like wavedashing fun.
I recommend checking out his video on game essence. He speaks about concepts like this specifically and what he's seen in his experience. It'll tell you why he doesn't see space for that
Definitely easier said than done to emphasize the platforming. As mentioned in the video, Playstation All-Stars started with that route by having objectives to go to through (what I would have to assume would have been) larger and longer stages. Even Smash itself has way more platforming in it if you play with everything on: larger stages to actually platform around and items to give you goals to move towards. But in both cases, the platforming gets in the way of the fighting, so PAS's design moved away from it, and competitive Smash turns all of that stuff off.
@@TheAmberFang
I don’t totally disagree, but that’s not necessarily what they said.
In the simplest-but most extreme-sense, ignore the Fighter elements and make a platformer with Platform Fighter movement. Really flesh out one, maybe a couple characters with really fun mechanics, and slap some cool platforming challenges down for them.
Maybe balance a competitive mode later if you feel like it...
That sort of thing, maybe. There are plenty of ways to go about it, though. This genre has a ton of potential/room for experimentation. (I’d love to see some less fast-paced platfighters, which some people probably think defeats the entire point😅)
But I feel smash is already that with the skill ceiling. My 7 year old cousin can pick up the game and have a blast, and a pro player can push the game to its limits. It doesn’t need any new advanced techniques or whatever
@sumthinorother9615 that game speedrunners is a good example of this I think. Items, responsive platforming, light combat, different objectives. It's all there
I've been a Smash kid for about as long as I can remember. I got Brawl when I was like, 8. I remember falling in love with the game the second I started playing it. It was the first fighting game I ever played, and I loved every living, breathing second of it. But honestly, after that, it really didn't become too hard for me to try other fighting games. I remember back in middle school when I tried Ultra SFII for the first time, since I always wanted to try Street Fighter. I fell in love with that too. Traditional 2D fighting was something I thought I wouldn't enjoy, but instead grew to love the more technical, execution-heavy style of it. Fast forward to high school years, and I'm here watching BBTag, DBFZ, Rivals, all these fighting games, wishing I had my own PC so I could try it. Now I do, I have all of those games, and I'm one happy college freshman.
Smash was more than just the only fighting game I would play. It awakened a love for ALL fighting games that would grow as I grew up. A competitive gaming style that I loved and was willing to train and practice at over and over again. I was never big on shooters, anyway. Even going into Rivals with the expectations of "Dream Characters Sprite Smash" I ended up finding a game whose controls, combos, and online flowed together better than Smash ever did for me! That's not including being allowed to play as my goat Goku fr.
Rivals has ALWAYS been the platform fighter that broke away from Smash the most to me, despite being made before all the others. You can feel that Smash inspired it, but it plays like a different game, especially compared to Ultimate. It's transcended into a fucking MUGEN at this point. Dan made something THAT DAMN GOOD. I have no doubt Rivals 2 will break from Smash's mold as well, and forge it's own path. I personally believe Rivals deserves a spot right next to Smash, as a true spiritual successor.
Also something similar, Mortal Kombat also started street fighter inspired and slowly became super different, this will definitely happen to rivals if it becomes a long series
@@cosmic5665Rivals is already very different tho. Like knowing smash is helpful but quite frankly the weird system mechanics make it very different to get used to.
It sounds like you need to publish a major amount of outstanding ip’s that capture a broad audience and then bring them together for a crossover. Like, smash 64 pulled me in because I saw my cousin breaking the targets with pikachu, everyone always mentions how cool a certain character was when they first played or saw the game. Nintendo’s position as a kid and family friendly gaming brand lets them really just always have a kind of relevancy and grasp on the whole market thanks to the likelihood of early years of exposure.
It is funny how little big companies have tried to make their platform fighters. I get Namco (as they helped make the last smash), but like where is the platform fighter from capcom (the creators of pocket fighter, a pre-smash intercompany crossover) or SNK (KOF was a crossover AND the reason smash was made) ? When Street Fighter 2 exploded, lots of Street Fighter 2 clones appeared, but they only started to get their identities when big names started appearing.
I think a lot of platform fighters go the direction of "competitive" play is because going for casual play is basically trying to go head to head with smash.
Im not justifying not having single player content for people to mess around in and get attached to the game in, but I am understanding as to why devs might not try to go the "casual" route.
I personally think the focus should be on getting casual fighting gamers into the genre rather than purely casual players.
To make a comparison, this is something both strive and street fighter 6 do. They have elements from other games in the genere to make it more appealing for other people to try the game out.
Another thing Id like to point out is the difficulty of desigining platform fighters likely increases when you have to factor in additional types of controlers.
Smash doesnt have this issue, it can just try to perfectly refine its gameplay for one controler (that will die to joycon drift).
Other games have to factor in both analogue and digital inputs with people playing on pc's being a pretty common activity. Because of this, i think its a little harder to nail the gamefeel.
Another point Id like to bring up is the curse of having high mobility.
Giving a player too much mobility is a genuine issue that can occur.
Its why 3d fighters will sometimes be closer to 2d fighters with a sidestep system - unbound 3d movement is usually hard to balance. And thats without even factoring in jumps!
Final notes:
I saw shovel knight showdown flash on screen for a moment there. Love that game, and how it feels like a celebration of its own series. I hope it gets a sequel one day!
Id also like to point out what i think is the best casual platform fighter outside of smash.
King of the Hat. Its unique, its silly, its cool.
I think one big part of why Smash is more successful than other platform fighters is because it has a focus on casual players more than most of its competitors. I believe the next most popular platform fighter is Brawlhalla. One major component of that game is the interaction players have with items. Brawlhalla basically asks "what if competitive Smash had items turned on?" For most casual Smash players, items are a big part of the game for them and with Brawlhalla including item play in its competitive experience, it makes itself a great synthesis of aspects of the game genre both casuals and competitive players enjoy. And while obviously now Brawlhalla also has many crossover events each with skins and two of the roster's characters, I'd say much of its success comes from having a system that is seamlessly able to appeal to both competitive and casual mindsets.
Iirc brawlhalla has more players than smash
Well casual depends on the title with brawl yeah. It doesnt get better than that.
@@cosmic5665Definitely not true, at least not dedicated players. F2P is also a massive favctor
@@defectivesickle5643it's very much true, especially now when compared to Ult. Brawlhalla player base is gigantic. And the game makes actual money as a competitor.
Unrelated but I like how Brawlhalla doubles feels way more intentional than Smash, smash doubles is always a sideline thing I wish it had a lot more stuff to make it feel real
Really great video! I definitely see on why Sakurai sees Smash Bros as a Party Game and comes down to practically how most of us growing up got into Smash. Its about playing and having fun with friends and family. It’s not until we got into playing more that we start to find the potential competitive side Smash soon become.
That being said, I wouldn’t say Sakurai hasn’t out right refused the competitive scene as he added elements in Ultimate that enhanced the experience for competitive play like the 1v1 score count, squad strike and not to mention the Final Hit Effect.
Most platform fighters always focus on being competitive first and being fun third because being a crossover is their second priority. It took years for Rivals Of Aether to just add some extra modes like tether and sort of fix the story mode, and until now, the only game that seems to have added some fun casual elements for both single player and multiplayer was NASB2 because on NASB 1 that wasn't even an available option and was criticized for that.
Sakurai always understood the point was to have fun, grab and play and try the other options, on melee he could see the incoming monster and decided to control the beast by not changing his vision, just look at how everyone else wants to copy melee without understanding how they got into melee and stayed in the first place.
In fairness if your getting into melee now your def only playing for competition
@@illford6921 but if you are getting into melee's competitive is because you already got tired of the other newer games' competitive, and you got into those because of the casual content not because of competitive.
if I were to make a smash game instead of a shield I would have a short invincible eight-way dash like in celeste, that didn't limit but instead increased your movement, and you could wavedash and stuff.
Multiversus
I just hope Rivals 2 isn't dead on release in Europe like Rivals 1. I really want to like that game, but it's hard to enjoy when nobody plays it
Another thing is, Competitive Smash Bros. players have put SO MANY hours of practice and hard work into Smash Bros. that switching to a different game would throw all of that away.
eh that's not really true when most games are emulating the game they play. Plus to be a top player in any game requires transferrable skills. Any top Smash player whether it be 64, Melee, or Ultimate, would kick ass in pretty much any competitive platform fighter and probably even traditional ones as well
Good Video, I liked how it shows Sakurai's way of doing stuff and how it's like to others that try to do it too,
And not comparing your thing to the orginal because people will prefer the original is a good tip.
it is the sad thing that Ps all star wont roll in, the game it is fun as brawl, but with it is so odd to use supers to kill and clunky with it is controls, weird level design ,anything that could be improved on a sequel
There is not a right or wrong way to play the game, sakurai gave us all of the options to play the game however we like
your editing is so smooth
Thanks a lot!
Sony should have stuck with their original vision. It looked interesting! It’s a shame whenever a company tries to copy or pander to an audience. Everyone can tell it’s not original. Rivals is the first game that actually innovates on platforming. The hitfall mechanic is the single-most unique addition to platforming fighters and the thing that makes it even faster than melee if you can believe that. Not only that, but each character has their own way of manipulating the environment. Kragg can build walls, Etalus can cover the stage in ice, Forsburn can cover the place with smoke, and Sylvanos can cover the stage in grass that he can use to pop out of or eat for a movement boost. Other characters have their own unique takes on the archetypes that smash created like Ranno being modeled off of Sheik but having his own unique moves that completely set him apart. I absolutely adore rivals because of what it does different to set itself apart and like you said, they listen to their community.
I’ll say this and never speak of it again, I always had a pet peeve of people saying the next indie platform fighter would be the “Smash Killer.” I always found that kind of foul and distasteful. Rather than embrace the series that built the community and look forward for a new experience, instead everyone wants to top smash and it’s not a very welcoming thing to hear. I get why people would want that because of Nintendo strict licensing standards but that phrase doesn’t help the situation, at all.
Pretty good video, but I think a very understated part of why smash is so above its peers in the plat fighter genre is just due to the sheer polish it has. From melee onwards (one may even include 64) each entry just absolutely nails it in presentation, animation, sound design, character expression/movement, etc, that you really don't see as pronounced from most other platform fighters (Rivals 2 has been the best looking 3D plat fighter since smash and I think that says a lot)
One of course would have to acknowledge Sakurai has a lot of money/resources to work with to this effect, but I'd partially disagree and say its a skill derived mostly from his very good understanding of these concepts (some of which you can see in his game discussion videos) that less experienced developers would not be able to match
Steve holding his meet was soo funny
Are you kidding me? Do you know how much money Smash made for Nintendo? There WILL be a sequel. I know it.
Aw man that's true
Crazy to me that for a competitive scene to thrive, a casual scene is necessary
yeah, like I don't think making a game for competitive reasons would make it popular if you got some gamers playing the game on a casual manner. Plus, don't competitive players exist from being causal players first before planning for competition? Speaking of competitive gamers, I bet there are some of them that will switch to playing casually, depending on their choice.
@@ArjunTheRageGuy comp scenes always hate casuals but the casuals being new blood to the comp scenes
@@djcwittz3012 ok didn't know that
For any new game devs wanting to make a platform fighter: DO NOT look at Melee as reference for your game. Take a look at Brawl instead, that way you can truly understand why people love Smash and also focus specifically on trying to reinvent the wheel rather than just trying to be Smash again.
In general, stop trying to be Smash, you'll always lose
@@kylespevak6781 that’s why I said that people who want to make their own platform fighter should try to find away to reinvent the wheel rather than playing it safe.
Smash Bros is a tribute to video game history that is also a playable game. Ultimate smash has gone far beyond just capturing all of nintendo's icons but gaming as a whole with Megaman, Simon Belmont, and various Jrpg swordsman. Smash has a legacy none of these new Ips can't ever compete with. Smash I do feel needs be reinvented at some point, whether be through a spin off version of it, or someone else cracks the code on how to do so, as I feel the formula has been pushed as far as it's going to. Every future game is probably going to be more of the same. While I'm sure that will appeal to plenty of people, I can sit out the next few versions till I decide to buy another nintendo system again.
A FELLOW HODAN ENJOYER??! 🤝 (great vid btw)
YOU KNOW IT!! (really hoping he makes it to RoA2, he's such a good design). Thanks for watching!
@@qmanchuall current roa1 characters + one new workshop competition character will be in roa2. And the next 2 or so characters for roa2 are water characters so hodan could be a release character who knows
I think other platform fighters can be successful but they have to bring something new to the table or else they will always be in Smash’s enormous shadow.
Still waiting for a platform fighter where u fight in long ahh stages like it was a platform level. Maybe even add modes that were in FPS and TPS games to a platform fighter, like Capture The Flag, Deathmatch with no set of lives, Team Deathmatch with no set of lives, Battle Royale, Search and Destroy, Domination, and more. Maybe even add killstreak rewards like in call of duty, maybe even scorestreak rewards too if playing on a mode with scorestreaks only.
11:39 And I'm sure that the devs heard that too
I hope to goodness they do
I feel like what we need for smash is competitive casual competition, let me explain.
Basically you have people competing like they do normally but it’s like teams or something and there’s most items and most stages. In my opinion thatd be actually more fun to watch and be more hype than what we normally got
There's casual tournaments in Japan for kids which are backed by Nintendo. But it's items on and crazy stages lol
@@qmanchu exactly that but worldwide
Great vid 👍
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed
Imagine if it got like this for the MOVIE
Now me personally, I think what's gonna happen is NASB2 which obviously just released and seems to be a great game and RoA2 are going to be not smash killers but coexist. After all the Nintendo tournament guidelines are kind of making things a bit more complicated for tournaments now so at some point, some people are going to have to change games. And I mean we see many smash players starting different fighting games like Fatality and SF6. And even myself who is starting to enjoy smash less and less (my mentality is shattered) going to SF6 and RoA. Anyway what I'm saying is that I'm certain a platform fighter that isn't smash will become more prominent, and I think it will happen soon.
So the solution is to not actually design the game to be competitive, but just make a good product.
Its like creating a game just for it to be speedrunned. For example, why would i ever try to speedrun Celeste if the game isnt even good to begin with. Yeah it have some stuff to incentivize speedrunning but thats not the reason why the game got popular, its because its just good.
Other example, trash game clearly made to be speedrunned, Only Up. Got really hyped at the start, millions of views everywhere, died in weeks.
Great point!
In before nintendo announces a smash bros reboot with Sakurai’s supervision and a new lead taking Sakurai’s role in the next Nintendo direct 😂
I'm just saying if you combined UMVC3 and and Smash 4/PM together you'd get a beautiful game. UMVC3 already feels natural as someone coming from smash due to its aerial combos but one thing i always wanted was the simplicity of movement from smssh mainky bevause dashing is a whole lot easier same with attacking. I think motion inputs are fine but you get to Dante and start questioning existence itself.
My request is simple, you start with PM Turbo mode, add auto turnaround and bigger movesets (Ultimate Ryu to Doom Levels of movelist witha fee exceptions) and then add the jumoing and ground movement from smash. I think if you worked off it you could also make a killer beat em up mode. Could also add a a two player beat em up mode, ive seen some fightimg games do it so i think it'd work .
Ive been trying to get my hands on the switch port of Rivals for a bit now
Are you having difficulty with it? I bought it on the Eshop just fine
@@qmanchu no, I've just been in some money trouble for a bit now 😅
Another major reason why smash clones aren’t as big is because they don’t have the iconic well-known characters as Smash. Smash has the big Nintendo characters such as Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Samus, etc and non-Nintendo characters like Sonic, Megaman, Cloud, Ryu, and Sora
12:14 Good Question
And Answer.
Haha thanks
Thank god
Everyone's already mentioned the "casual" side, which is 100% true. Getting people into smash is relatively easy.
My anecdote: I've played smash all my life since 64 (not competitively, just played); my new friends in the small town I just moved to hadn't. I suggested playing SF6, they wouldn't even consider it "it's a combo game", "it's so hard to pick up, I don't want to suck". Then I suggested smash and the reception was very different, they felt welcomed by the game: 8 players at the same time, the items made things funny and unbalanced, the characters were eye catching ("hey! that's sephiroth from FF7!"), time mode so nobody had to stop playing, handicap, etc. The game was just so so welcoming to people who only play Fifa and CoD. Now we play constantly.
TLDR: Smash is just much more welcoming than most, if not all, fighting games.
It's simply the Crossovers. The Characters are represented in Smash like they are in their game series. Many references, nothing like a Chibi Artstyle and most of the Characters are famous AAA-Characters. These popular well known Characters meeting other well known Characters that would otherwise never had a crossover at all makes it. The Gameplay is solid and good, but it's not carrying the game at all. You can see this in Dead by Daylight, the so called "Smash Bros of Horror" too.
Have you ever played towerfall? Feels similar, but completely original
I'm a big towerfall fan!
Funnily enough, the Smash I enjoyed the most was actually 3DS. It mostly came down to the game modes, like it’s version of Classic mode, and I really loved playing Smash Run. I’m definitely way more casual when it comes to Smash Bros. honestly, but I can go all out in a match with friends. Personally I wish there was more single player content in Ultimate, something more than World of Light, but I’m most likely an outlier. I’m not opposed to competitive Smash, it’s just not my thing.
We live in exciting decade. The entirety of video games is only 30-40 years old.
Great point!
God I miss fullstream so much
Did something happen to him? I used to watch his stuff every now and then. Then he suddenly just stopped uploading
@qmanchu think life just took him other places
Nothing will ever compete with Smash because Smash has so many beloved icons and nostalgia going for it. And not to mention Smash has an immensely good optics since Sakurai is really open and likable while on screen. Mechanically it's not too terribly great, but it does everything else so perfectly.
We’ll be here when smash 6 drops
The title should be “why there won’t be another game LIKE Super Smash Bros.”
The title implies that the smash series is discontinued.
Still good video 👍❤️
You are correct! But I gotta play the TH-cam meta
@@qmanchu I understand. Wish you the best ❤️🙏
The characters carry Smash. Ffs it’s not hard to understand.
That and Sakurai loves fighting games, not just platform fighters, he’s passionate since before some competitive players were born.
No one can replace Sakurai.
He’s the GOAT and originator of the genre.
Dragon Ball FighterZ upstaging Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite is a good case study for what a platform fighter needs to compete with Super Smash Bros.
1) Leverage popular ip for characters and stages
2) A developer with experience making fighting games
3) Presentation that outshines the competition
If I have to hear the word clone one more time I'm gonna fucking jump
Curious what you'd refer to them as? Cuz that's just the standard phrase at this point lol
@@qmanchuplatform fighter, smash clone is so cringe I am sick of rivals of aether (my favourite game) getting treated like some copy, the term is making me hate smash bros
@@qmanchu Calling them clones is like calling shooters Doom Clones, Platform Fighter is right there
there is going to be a newer smash with sakurai directing. wait and see
Excellent video. One of the reasons we made Smack Studio was to let players create their own characters and stages in a platform fighter, with their own rules etc. Since the community has resorted to modding modern Smash games, why not give them a game with the tools built-in? Also, games like Rivals have a workshop, but nothing is as accessible as Smack.
Stellar video friend. Thanks for the clever insights. You're right. Other platform fighters simply can't compete with Smash's pedigree. It might not have been the 1st, but it pioneered crossover combat using characters who themselves already had impressive pedigrees. Many smash greats attribute their interest and success in the game to finding it at a young age or simply being drawn to time honored and beloved characters. FPS was able to break away from the "Doom Clone" label through stories, improved graphics, cool characters and worlds, etc. Even in the case of PS All stars, (a game I cherish and consider woefully underrated) the characters made their mark in the late 90s to early 2000s and don't have the pedigree of characters like Mario and co. Smash has such impact that it just can't be matched or replaced. For all intents and purposes Smash IS platform fighting. I love smash dearly and don't want smash replaced. I just wish that more people would give other platform fighters the time of day. Thanks again for the video. Can't wait for the next.
Hot take: It's an opinion of mine that Melee is popular in part due to sheer rebellion. People simply don't like being told "no." If you want fast paced gameplay, try an anime fighter. If you want movement tech, try Tekken or Marvel 3.
Big facts in this comment. Lots of things I didn't think of. Thanks for sharing
I've seen a lot of these "Why Smash clones always fail" like videos come out since NASB1s decline and I think this might be the least biased and interesting one to watch, Great video man! 👍
I think why Smash has had a monopoly in the genre is really easy to boil down to it being the one that made the formula that we see all the new Plat Fighters do, and it being the most casual friendly. Most try to be like Melee, competitive spectacles. Which I think is a bad idea, it's always best to appeal to both, The casuals are the biggest audience, and for them the brand already has been there for decades, and they see a Smash game and already know it'll be good. Very different for a IP that's fairly fresh (Rivals) and one that started out with a bad first impression (NASB1 and Multiversus) and I think Brawlhalla is the only one to have found it's own niche, instead of clinging to a similar community like the Smash community
Brawlhalla (kinda) NASB2 and Rivals (both of them) are really the only ones that I've seen be given positive opinions by a decent chunk of the Smash fanbase, but still by the time the next Smash comes out most of these people will move on.
Not to say I HATE any of them, I'm still personally rooting for Rivals 2 and NASB2 to be able to at least have a healthy community even if it obviously will never kill Smash. But Smash has been doing this longer than they all have, all the games have something for people to go back to, and have made people's childhoods, Smash is just too big of a brand that it'll take a long while before another one can compete.
Yeah I tried to remain unbiased and just use Sakurai's videos alone as basis for my points. The other difference between this video and those is the message you mentioned in the supposed titles. I WANT these games to succeed. I want the community to thrive away from Smash if they have to. But I think a lot of people just like to watch things fail.
I don't think RoA2 will fail or NASB 2 either. But I think we have to be realistic and try to understand this problem if we want to break free from Nintendo
@@qmanchu 100%, I think a lot of people just don't like the idea of other Smash like games existing. Which is why this video was a breath of fresh air, it felt like a genuine dive into why Sakurai's formula works so well and less "There can only be one"
@@PappyTheMorts ahhh I appreciate that
No game will kill smash and no game should, why do games have to kill each other, I thought we hate war
@@cosmic5665because the smash community hates Nintendo and Nintendo actively tries to kill competition.
First off I wanna say that this was a really great video and your insight into what makes Smash so great was very interesting. But I do feel as though a lot of the discussion heavily ignored Brawlhalla (the mention at the end scratched the surface but hardly). As a big Brawlhalla fan I can say that whilst from the outside people do often see it as a smash clone, it is an entirely unique entry into the platform fighter genre. Mechanically the games are extremely different and to me it actually feels like it was not crafted in the shadow of Smash.
Not only this but the pro scene is THRIVING and still growing as, what was once dominated by North American players is now being challenged by South American and European players. A Brazilian player managed to win the world championship this year! On top of this, the pro scene has heavy support from the developers and the total prize pool was 1 million for the past couple years. Brawlhalla is the second biggest fighting game at the moment behind street fighter and whilst that's got a lot to do with the fact that it's free to play and on every platform including mobile, I think its mark on the fighting game genre is undeniable at this point (obviously Smash is still by far the more socially impactful game but my point is that Brawlhalla is still huge).
As a Brawlhalla meatrider myself I felt the need to leave this as a little footnote on Brawlhalla's impact but regardless, still an amazing video, entertaining from start to finish. Cant wait to see more ❤
Oh yeah please, thank you for sharing! I avoided it because if I'm being totally honest, I know next to nothing about brawlhalla aside from the surface level info. It exists in a pocket universe to me away from FGC AND smash discourse. Which is Hella impressive
Brawlhalla is a popular game that no one seems to play. I have only ever seen 1 person who plays it. It seems to be a lot of semi-comp to comp people nowadays
The problem with a lot of "Smash clones" is that they're overly designed with competitive in mind. They don't do enough to appeal to casual players whether that be through character diversity, items, stages, or the variety of game modes.
Their game could have the best controls and online play but if casuals don't find it engaging, the game will not be successful.
There are 2 reasons smash will always be the most popular platform fighter.
1: It's owned by Nintendo, which means it will have more budget develoment time and polish than most other games in the market by a lot.
2: Let's be honest, smash is mostly populat because of its ip. We didn't play smash for the first time because it had unique mechanics, we played it because it has Mario and Pikachu. Like, if smash had 100% originals characters like it was gonna have at the beggining of its develoment, it wouldn't be near as popular as it is now.
That's why Brawlhalla became more popular the moment they started doing crossovers.
There is a reason people talk a lot about NASB 1 and 2 and barely about Slap City, even if they are made by the same people.
I think we're realistically never NOT gonna stop getting Smash games, it's simply too lucarative. I just don't see it ever evolving as a series, and until people accept that Smash isn't the only possible platform fighter, the platform fighter genre with it. That said, recent games have been definitely been making a push to be more unique and evolve the genre outside of Smash's shadow- hopefully in the future, we get as rich a lineup of platfighters as we do "normal" 2D fighters. It's not just Street Fighter, but also Guilty Gear, KoF, MvC, Darkstalkers, Blazblue, UNI, Killer Instinct, etc etc
Because Sakurai
I like how two-faced the fighting game community is. Any traditional fighting game can come along and they accept it into the FGC, but lord forbid a small team wants to make a game with similar mechanics to Smash, and suddenly there are video essays about why Smash will always be on top.
Smash community and the fgc are pretty separate entities so I'm not sure what you mean by this. But this video is about why Smash has cemented itself as something so hard to topple and what these new games can do to actually make a name for themselves
Hodan If they add three water fighters in RoA2, the first being confirmed as Ranno and the second likely being Orcane, it's a tossup between Hodan and an original character, because I don't think Etalus will rejoin the roster, at least not anytime soon after release.
Someone in the comments told me they'll have all the original fighters back in RoA2 so etalus would make sense
@@qmanchu Has that been confirmed by the devs? I think eventually the original roster will be readded, but I don't think it's a priority.
The answers is: Nintendo's absolute huge catalog of characters/associated characters.
There isn't a person alive, who has heard of videogames, who doesn't know who Donkey Kong or Mario is.
And other developers out there don't have as many recognizable characters or from as many different diverse franchise.
Sakurai's vision of a party game EVERYONE could play combined with characters EVERYONE knows from SEVERAL different franchises is why Smash is king.
The closest thing to compare it to would be something like what Disney/Square did with Kingdom Hearts. People love that franchise BECAUSE it combines the epic battle/adventure of Final Fantasy with the beloved worlds of the many Disney franchise. And honestly, the story wouldn't be the same or as grand without the Disney characters/worlds.
It's kinda funny imagining how corny KH would be without those characters now that you mention it lol
the next smash bros is smash ultimate emergency patch edition
We can only hope huh?
If Steve returns he's 100% getting buffed. If Nintendo cared about Ultimate's metagame, they would have released balance patches after Sora- I wouldn't be surprised if several characters were deliberately overtuned to try and hurt people's resolve to play competitive
@@docs.a.t.7161 always been like this, every patch made ultimate a worse game
No platformer fighter will ever topple Smash’s competition scene because, regardless of what pro players tell you - it’s the iconic videogame roster that keeps the interest going. Kicking ass with a main you connect with feels better than kicking ass with a literal who.
There’s just no way to topple smash bros. Even if that game has better competitive game play.
Let's compare Smash with Street Fighter. SF was the first real fighting game, has tons of nostalgia. Back in the day, I loved SF, but as a kid I couldn't understand the controls. For context, at that time you didn't have the commands displayed in the game, you should discover by yourself or find in magazines. I did something I regret today: replaced SF with Mortal Kombat. I didn't like the gore, characters, graphics, but the commands were easier than SF. Smash is already easy for casuals, maybe that's one of the reasons for Smash not losing his spot to any of its rivals.
Yepp, that definitely plays a major role. Sakurai actually makes this exact comparison himself saying that it wasn't just the controls but also the idea that if you fought someone who knew what they were doing in SF, you just didn't get to play if you were a noob. He designed Smash to hopefully avoid that problem and I think he succeeded
Broski rlly said smash brothers
I think you do Rivals a disservice by highlighting Fornace's comments about Smash's influence on Rivals, but not examining the passion he has for the world he's created, expressed through games like Creatures and Dungeons of Aether, and independently from Aether Studios through Lovers, which expand the world and characters. Rivals 2 is going to have even the piece you say is missing, but I have a prediction: It will not succeed.
I think every commentator on this problem really likes to try to move the goal posts for the creators of these games, finding more and more they could be doing to make these games successful, but none of them ever really touches on the thing Smash has that the other games don't: fans that refuse to try anything else. Everyone that plays other platform fighters plays Smash, but the overwhelming number of Smash players play one game from one franchise almost exclusively (and then, really only one of three games). These folks just don't want to branch out. I wish more of the commentators on this would just accept it; "the fault lies not in our stars, but ourselves."
Melee has everything in a chokehold.....
confused at why you didn't mention the most obvious reason in my mind. The characters. No other game lets you play the most iconic characters in gaming history in a fighting game. Smash is basically like a nostalgia museum at this point where even though it may not be the tightest or most technical compared to newer platform fighters, it's just so much more of a spectacle and that adds up to more.
Because, as you said. It's obvious. I did mention it in saying that Sakurai using that to get the project greenlit was genius and something that hadn't been done before. But nobody needs me to tell them a big reason smash is successful is because it's got recognizable characters. If that was "the biggest" reason, Playstation All Stars would've done better. Same with Nick All Stars Brawl. But the characters aren't the sole reason, they're just the most obvious
Street Fighter doesn't have Mario, but Smash Bros has Ryu, as well as nearly 100 other popular video game characters. And that's why Smash Bros is the most popular fighting game of all time.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
11:56 Smash has history and recognizable characters. Most other platform fighters feel jank or are 2D. NASB 2 is the first game feeling as good as Smash
How is 2d a downside at all? Rivals of aether is subjectively better than smash bros and if you say it's not then you don't understand what an opinion is
Damn no mention of brawlhalla sadge. The unique mechanics in that game make it a wholly unique experience in terms of platform fighters
there is mention of it lol. But definitely not as much as you were hoping for haha
4:20 It doesn't BEG the question, it RAISES the question. Learn the difference.
When is Super Smash Brothers 6 the game?
It's simple. 99% of comp smash players are coming in as converts from being casual players. and smash is so appealing to casual players because of brand recognition. they could have never added the extra stuff like side game modes, just kept a "classic" mode and maybe some trophy/sticker/"spirit" collection stuff, and could have kept the number of stages and items in the game pretty small, and each successive smash game would have done great. (though i do believe items are a critical part of casual appeal, since they help turn the tide. we all remember being kids and everyone scrambling to pick up the beam sword or bob-omb that just dropped way across the stage.) the fact that they added some extra effort to include a little more content than was strictly necessary-like all the stuff brawl added, especially the stage builder stuff, rudimentary as it is-definitely helps, but at the end of the day, no one would really care if the characters were all original. look at fighting games nowadays. the ones with original casts never take off. back when the number of options for fighting games that actually played well were pretty low, yknow, back in the early 90s in arcades and late 90s to early 00s for doujin PC fighters, having an original cast was fine, cuz there was basically nothing to compete with. but now, you're asking new players to choose between playing as a recognizable character they've heard and seen about before, or some nobody. fighting game characters literally represent you, they're extensions of who you are and act as your fists in a virtual fight, so of course you're going to want to play as characters that appeal to you. if the original smash had used an all original cast it would have flopped, but because they used big name, easily recognizable nintendo characters (and ness,) it was a smash hit, pun intended. kids knew who mario, luigi, pikachu, jigglypuff, fox, link, donkey kong, yoshi, and kirby were. and, if they were old enough to have played SNES games, they'd know who samus and captain falcon, and maybe even ness, were too. they'd already had favorites before even selecting one at the CSS. and to this day it's still the same. the reason why almost everyone who plays rivals plays it because they already play smash but are sick of its problems is because rivals doesn't have a gateway for casuals to graduate to competitive players. the steam workshop made it a little easier for casuals to get into, but mostly as a curiosity. brawlhalla doesn't even have that going for it, instead they have to bribe people to play it by using huge cash prizes at tournaments. and the licensed games with recognizable characters always fall flat somewhere. PSAB and that doubles-only game I forget was just not good and the characters were full of "literally who"s and NASB is just unfinished and unpolished (also, nickelodeon is way past its prime in terms of brand clout.) we're just screwed, there's literally nothing that has the wide, genre-spanning gaming brand recognition that nintendo does. and they HAVE to be gaming characters at the end of the day, because you're trying to appeal to people who like games, who play games. if NASB was finished and polished i think it might be able to carve a larger niche than rivals but unfortunately smash will always be the biggest name. we can only hope that the non-smash games will be what pro smash players graduate to someday.
There already is
There's a smash game on every nintendo console since n64, there will be another one
Good platform fighters don’t come from crowns or golden cups, it comes from the content where friends and family can have fun without starting a fire between them.
smash is so succesful because the characters are nostalgic
HOGANG RISE UP
(He's gotta be coming back right?)
Keep the hope alive!!
Dusty carpet where u at
It was called Ultimate for a reason.
Sakurai creating the genre of platform fighter doesnt mean someone else cant push it further. Otherwise we'd never have fps, open world, sandbox, platformers.....basically any genre of game
I agree but the person making the most progress even after 25 years is still him. Maybe when he steps down fully we'll see that but up to this point, we just haven't. It didn't take 25 years for games to do well after Doom and Spawn the fps genre. This genre is progressing slowly and he remains the king after all this time. Just kinda crazy
@qmanchu Don't blame him for the fact that it took so long for anyone else to try out the genre. For some reason big devs never cared for it (until recently) and tech only recently got easy enough for Smash enthusiasts to make their own games. As far as Rivals lack of popularity goes, it's basically the 2D aesthetic. When you consider the muggle-perspective, you realize how important 3D, side modes, and cool characters are. Casuals create sales, but so far most platform fighters have just tried to copy Smash. NASB 2 feels great, but is very Smash Ultimate. Multiversus had a great concept being based around doubles, but felt jank and was handled poorly
@kylespevak6781 I'm not blaming anyone, you brought up the idea of other genres, not me. I'm praising Sakurai if anything. And to say nobody cared until recently isn't true. PS All Stars is 10 years old at this point. That's a big budget, big studio, with 3d models and iconic characters.
NASB 2 is fun but it will not even put a dent in Smash's audience at this point. Kids are still buying switches to play World of Light and I haven't heard a thing about NASB's campaign
@qmanchu PS All Stars was janky, had clone characters, broken characters, etc. ONE exception isn't a point. I was just saying idk why platform fighter hasn't caught on like other genres, but that just let's Smash basically monopolize the genre, which is why you were praising Sakurai. Smash is only king of the hill because Nick's first attempt was poor as well as WB's having little support, and other companies like Disney, Sega or Dreamworks haven't hopped I'm the copy-band wagon like they have with cart racers
i didnt watch the video but there will absolutely be another smash bros. its one of the most successful things nintendo has, and the switch was not the console to finish on. im personally expecting an ultimate deluxe version for whatever new console, or halfway down that consoles life, another smash will come out with less characters.
Dan said all rivals 1 original characters will return no ori or shovel knight
REALLY??? I dunno how I missed that! Thank you! Do the workshop characters count as original though?
@@qmanchuyes they do count as originall funny enough workshop devs of the chericters actully work for aether studios
@@garf6748 didn't know that, thanks for the info
Brawlout is probably the best knockoff honestly
I remembered it seemed cool but then it just disappeared as fast as it came. The frog was funny
Frog was op af. But gotta be honest playing a luchador was the best thing 😂
rivals of ether get pretty close to smash success i would say
I want new game
Agreed. Smash is KING of platform fighters. Period, end of paragraph.
I am not a competitive player, so this aproach other plataform fighters offer don't interest me. Plus, I have been playing it since I was kid becuase it had all the characters from games I already know. Others games can't compete with that (even Jump, Multiversus or NasB, since I am not a big fan of any particular show present there)
Rivals is the only I also play (but much less than Smash) solely cuz I played Dan fan game Smash Land. Since I had that experience, trying Rivals came naturally. I am looking forward for Rivals 2.
Side note: i think Pokemon is another franchise that have similar problems