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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Not as bottom heavy as the Est one, but not as top heavy as Camilla either. Or the Jeigan one.
Twitter: / mekkkkah
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In case you're curious about some missing units: I didn't put any 3H units here because there's like a bazillion units that can be archers. Not just Bernie/Ashe/Ignatz but like...Felix has a bow boon as well. With the magical guys it was easy cause that was just dudes, and there's only a couple magically inclined students. And I needed more units to fill that one. Here I had more than I needed.
WRT Shamir and other snipers: it's an archer tier list. Not Snipers. There's enough prepromote snipers in the series to make one of these.
Think there's Leonardo and Norne, but they are pretty forgettable. Castor too kinda. And Warren.
Also most of the invested FE12 players would agree that Ryan > Gordin because Ryan can catch up to or surpass Gordin's base level by chapter 1 (at which point he'll have identical or slightly better stats) and a higher bow rank. Ryan has 10% higher str and spd growths, which is better for lategame when you want a fast horseman.
Leon also counts in Celica's route. At least he usually hits.
Edit: There he is.
@@DD151 Oh yeah, those archers...Norne is just so bad you wonder why she was put in the game. At least Warren can significantly hurt or kill a draco in his join chapter. Castor probably gets the opportunity to take out a flier or two before he gets benched as well.
Technically you forgot Hayato from Fates on the magic boy tier list. He would have fit the mark better than Hubert (because Hubert is essentially an early joining dark mage and not an early joining wind/fire/thunder mage type). Hayato is essentially your Merric who joins after a Linde (Orochi) in birthright. Similar to their roles in New Mystery, i believe.
I understand that you've never played birthright but when it's the only FE game you haven't played, those absences are still going to be suspect from tier list where they are relevant. Like with Setsuna here.
I don't understand the inclusion of RD's rolf, he's a sniper in the game (i understand an under leveled one) but he does have the value of the sniper's crit bonus where leonardo fits the archer archetype.
The Archer class is really made up of archers.
Dunno why people always say archers are bowlocked.
N o s h i n o n t h o
@@neonritsu9091 What's a sniper?
I appreciate the Fate reference.
I find it hilarious how a lot of fate quotes are ridiculously stupid yet still somehow make sense in context
I would push Takumi up to A tier with the Fujin Yumi. It allows him to traverse any terrain as if it were normal terrain, basically making him a flyer without the weakness to bows.
He's also a crit machine. Kid blew up everything on my playthroughs
@@lordmango6060 not to mention that he literally becomes one of the most destructive fire emblem units ever concieved if you give him the Point Blank skill
@@thehermit8618 exactly, I gave him that, vantage and Sol and he was almost impossible to kill
Basically a flyer without 8 mov... His best class is probably Kinshi Knight, and that is weak to bows.
@@greenhardin1700 i wouldn't say he's a flier without the extra movement because for what i've experienced, it works more like Fujin Yumi has a built-in acrobat skill from Awakening because he's still restricted from walking all over chasms and big bodies of water
Ronan is an archer, so no they’re not all bad.
Ronannnnnnnnnnnn
Ronan is a Bow Fighter, not an Archer
Harb1ng3r And then 3H came along...
Tanya is better smfh
shan Tanya’s got some better stats and supports but Ronan’s got the chad move growth and move stars
Ronan + 5 scrolls + brave bow + wrath manual = pwnage incarnate
Jay Bellz underrated comment
Anything is pwnage incarnate if you overfeed him a lot of shits
@@powerfulberry237 Hey.
That's the joke.
I'm trying to think of a proverb about things you can do vs. things you should do, but nothing pithy springs to mind.
An important thing for Neimi is that she gets a 1 range option when she promotes. While she isn’t very good with them, it still is an important thing to consider that she CAN retaliate.
I think he is extra critical on how good SS characters are since Seth, Franz, and Vanessa all join immediately, and they can carry any playthrough.
@@whichDude tbf i think out of all GBA archers Neimi is definetly the best but then again.......
still i would pit her in mid-D tier personally
@@ohandthefracking I would normally agree that she is the best GBA archer, but Mangs current iron man run has converted me to the church of Wolt.
@@whichDude i mean....even the worst unit with RNG bless can turn out just fine but generally Wolt is REALLY shitty
@@ohandthefracking I say it comes down to the game design, personally. Sacred Stones really isn't a game where you want to be a bow unit, while Binding Blade is a game where they have a significant niche. So even though Neimi is kind of objectively better than Wolt in several ways, Wolt can still be more useful just because ranged chip damage and killing strong fliers are actually somewhat desirable.
Wolt isn't S tier? Ridiculous
FE6 early game chip is god tier smh
He also gets support with all the chapter 1 units, which you can theoretically farm up without even losing turncount(chip with wolt finish with roy/alan/lance gives you support points)
@@eeecool2 and he's real cute uwu
Why would he ever be S tier over W tier?
14:34 ah yes Python's route my favorite part of Gaiden
I love archer on horse.
Whenever I play Fates rev or Birthrights Takumi is completely broken for me and always my second best character(second only to Ryoma). I would say he’s the best archer on the list for the reliable 1-2 range already. BETRAYAL
Yeah, Takumi is a more balanced Ryoma. At least Takumi has identifiable weaknesses for you to not think "Ryoma Emblem."
The Echoes archers are so much better than anything else on this list just because of the systems they are in. Their stats may be bad to start but Combat Arts more than rectify this on player phase. Curved Shot is amazing early game and Heavy Draw is situationally useful against low avoid enemies, and they can counter about as well as most of your other units. Once you can get Killer Bows they become some of your best combat units because by that point theyll be Snipers with decent stats that can counter anything with a 20 crit weapon on enemy phase, and Hunters Volley to delete something on player phase. Then they get mounts and more range after second promo and become your only units that can fight effectively from so far and remain safe. Even in swamp maps, their mobility and range makes them better than pretty much anything on Celica's team but the Falcon Knights and maybe your Dreads.
Well Mekkah really hates some levels on Echoes, and they all have something in common: archers pretty much carry those chapters. I keep hearing how he thinks some levels are drags and I'm just like, why didn't you just clear everything with archers? Mekkah has a bad habit of neglecting some units and not really training up units he doesn't immediately deem as useful. But like 2-3 of the villagers' most useful class is archer even tho they might not seem good on paper. Atlas is amazing on archers due to his sheer one hit kill potential which makes him better to use against enemies with scary counterattacks.
B kinda seems low tbh, but I don't think Python and Leon are the best archers anyways. Also they're just great in general mostly because enemy archer AI prioritize other archers which makes it easy to protect mages (fliers outprioritize archers however). This pretty much makes them the best enemy phase archers in the entire FE series because they counter things no other units can
Bows and Archers are just so op even Alm tried to get in the action
Tbh,Archers are the "op class" in echos.
1-4 or 5 range promoted (or 6 with longbow) and the killer bow is literrally the best weapon in the entire game, its a killer weapon and you can activate at will a brave effect on it that ALSO grants a bit more hit% and Crit%.
@@dizzyheads Well yea, he could in Gaiden.
@@monkeylemur In fairness to Mekkah though, he doesn't grind because it makes everyone good, so what's the point. That doesn't stop you from doing it, play however you want. But that's his mindset. Mekkah is pretty well versed in the series, so he knows what he's doing. Is he infallible? Of course not, but I'd say more often than not he's mostly right. Echoes is a pretty faithful remake and he knows Gaiden pretty decently, iirc. Atlas is pretty bad at base, and a bit tedious to grind. That's why people say he's bad. Again, grinding makes everyone good. "If everyone is super. No one is."
Also, using archers to clear a chapter doesn't make it any less tedious, Gaiden/Echoes has some of the worst maps in the series. But I will give you it does make it easier. I still think Dread Fighter is better for Gray, because it compliments his stats and growths better, and Dread Fighters are that broken. Up there with Gold Knight and of course Bow Knights.
I will wait for the Julian tier list, no matter how long it takes. Just like how long it takes for those types of characters to kill something.
I dunno. Julian killed a lot of fighters in chapter 3 in FE 1
Or how long it takes for them to die, which is like 3 seconds
Julian actually has some solid growths himself, for what that’s worth, considering he level caps at 30 as well.
Julian in FE11 is an amazing combat unit. In Hard 5, he could reliably one-round close to the late-game in my save.
@@flint8291 Julian's bases and growths are much better in 12, though Lunatic Reverse makes him almost impossible to train
You deserve so many more subs dude, love the content. Also please make more tier list videos I really enjoy them
Sadly, don't think it'll happen. His videos, while informative, and pretty fair in my opinion, are kinda esoteric. Most fe players are pretty "casual" (and I don't mean that in a bad way), so they don't really care about this kind of info. Which is fine of course. But what kinda sucks is people misinterpret what Mekkah says as law, when really he's just giving guidelines.
20:10 Faval’s join situation is not great, but funnily enough when you recruit him he can literally turn around and kill Ishtar on player phase.
You say that like he can hit something
Yup I used that strategy to get rid of her in that chapter :) I think he should have been at least C tier he does get holy weapon and he is decent. But it is Mekkah's list so I can respect that.
@@lordtullus9942 Yeah I think his hit on her is a coinflip, maybe only with Seliph's leadership.
I just throw a Ares at Ishtar's face
Faval vs Ishtar 1
"Welp this is easy and anticlimactic, but welcome to the team"
Faval vs Ishtar 2
"Congratulations, you are benched."
Notice how Ronan is the only one with blue hair? That's because he's a main lord
Python?
Wombo Chrombo Two blue haired main lords, FE8 confirmed
You forgot Mid-Boss
Virion and python.
I'm guessing this comment wasn't very thought out lmao
Mekkah, I get so happy seeing you put these out knowing I can do a long drive and not be bored. Keep them up!
If this was Mangs' tier list, Louise would've been S+ Tier.
"Guy has a good speed growth, like 50-55%" his speed growth is 70% lol
True but his con is crap so anything above an iron sword still weighs him down tho, not that it's a big issue since he will still double most enemies, but it will take a while for him to reliably kill enemies.
@@Tez365
Con>speed is a pitfall
@@chrisf.9595 I never said he can't double but denying that it hurts him until his speed picks up is foolish imo,
For example the killing edge should keep his speed to 18 if it is at 20, 11 at base since his base is 13 I think in hhm, that's equal to marcus's speed.
It is not particularly bad but you can't double mercs but I guess you can use someone else like marcus with a silver lance.
Iron blade reduces his speed by 7 so at 20 speed it gets reduced to 13 which is more than marcus's speeed because you don't get a speedwing at 18.
13 to 14 speed should be enough for upto 20 I think
As far as I've been able to tell, the existence of the Close Counter skill in 3H makes archers in that game a completely different beast than any other game. It's not even comparable, since lacking 1range counters removes archers' biggest weakness.
Don't forget they can get +2 range on top of that. Often times you're making characters like Felix and Petra archers who are way better than the intended ones.
Rogue Slushy Bow Knights and Bow-wielding Wyvern riders/lords are busted in 3H.
Damn fire emblem heroes putting skills in three houses
@@dizzyheads Close counter has been a skill since Fates or if you wanna be technical since Gaiden, but it didn't have a name then
counter+ in lunatic + too. Shit was annoying until i made everyone an archer.
Setsuna easily doubles in early game Lunatic Birthright, that makes her a bit useful. She falls off soon though.
Archers in Birthright are just generally nice for dealing a lot of damage on player phase. I'm liking how well the newest FE games have been treating archers better
Setsuna is great, then you get Takumi and at that point its like... why bother using her at all?
There is the option of a flying mount for her though, where that would pretty much be bad for Takumi because it would negate the entire point of the Fujin Yumi, she does have that option for some speedy flanks that also can give her a 1-2 range option.
@@chadachi3970 Lunatic Birthright is the reason to keep using her.
i could never not use them both, Takumi doesn't invalidate Setsuna at all.
She doesn’t exactly fall off, it’s just that Takumi shows up and is better than her in almost everything. She’s still viable for the endgame of both Birthright and Revelation if you properly use her.
@@chadachi3970 setsuna is a icon and a legend which means its asap to use her PERIODDD
Virion is an average unit in a game where (mostly) everyone is amazing. In the case of the tier list, I think D or C tier is acceptable but he's not outright garbage.
he's really good in the back as a sniper. that bonus skill will cause skills to proc like crazzy.
@@MrGhosta5 I always pair him with Panne, both for the support and cuz he has little to pass on to children so he might as well go to one that's gonna be a pair up bot.
Hes pretty good for lunatic or hard mode iron mans because of the amount of wyvern riders earlier on he can easily damage them within kill range or outright kill them.
I also forgot to mention his pairups. I dont exactly know what it is but I remember it being super useful if you are willing to math out many different ways
@@Arawnnc if I remember right, he gives +7 Strength when paired up with another unit
I've been watching you for quite some time, and frankly, this is the content I never knew I needed. Bless you.
Takumi is absolutely insane in Birthright, seriously--I'd place him in top 3 characters. At the same level, in all my playthroughs, he outperformed even units like Ryoma.
In that case you're just really bad at FE.
I would put him reasonably high up, since he is an offensive beast, but that's because his player phase is good. The reason why he wouldn't be that high is because his enemy phase is lacking, though it is a bit better in birthright than other archers at the very least. You shouldn't put in personal bias btw, since we should consider how they perform on average. Ryoma on average is absolutely amazing, largely since he has a player phase and enemy phase, unlike takumi in plenty of cases, and has ridiculous bases, not to mention the growths that help him maintain these crazy stats. He would probably be in the top three alongside azura and corrin, not takumi though. But I won't deny that he is a very solid unit, just not top three potential.
ryoma is like the best character in all of FE.... guarantee you dont play hard or lunatic.
@@TheFierburn Azura is better imo. This is since a dancer with very high accessibility is very powerful. Also she has inspiring song which is important for boosting speed (the skill and luck is neat though) as speed is the best stat in fire emblem. Don't get me wrong, Ryoma is a powerhouse, but you have to complete the Camilla map to get him, at a point that we already have strong enough units. Also shelter dances are a thing and are very strong, albeit they are harder to perform in birthright with the lack of cavaliers since we have Silas, Sophie (if you do her paralogue) and reclasses.
Adrian McCarthy In my lunatic runs as soon as you get ryoma its over, sure azura is really fucking goos as well, but i feel she has a very easy time getting picked off by a single stray enemy unit. If you do LTC runs and no farming, that can happen quite consistently.
You don't mention the wall in Niemi's starting chapter that she helps break so your better units are actually killing things.
Thank you for the upload mekkah, I appreciate it
The comments about the Gaiden/Echoes archer balancing is interesting. I think the increased range and lower accuracy makes a lot of sense flavor-wise (the projectile weapon should be able to attack farther than a javelin for example), although it's hard to balance...
I'm really surprised to see Python that high. Maybe it's just bad luck with RNG, but every time i play through echoes, Python is trash and deals no dmg.
in my runs he always misses.
Just promote him asap, when you get the chance to. Str is his only redeeming factor tho(and his highest growth rate) and if you get unlucky Str wise he is pretty terrible.
He sucked on my first playthrough but was pretty good on the second and a god on the third. He seems really inconsistent with usefulness.
give him a killer bow and spam hunter's volley, that's a big reason why archers are good in echoes
Basically just forge the steel then the killer bow for accuracy and bump his skill with a stat item and hell crush. He was a main unit for me.
Takumi is od one of the closest things to being a broken archer. His weapon is insanely good. He's not as good as the other good royals (Ryoma, Xander, and Camilla) but he's disgusting for an archer. Setsuna is decent but there's almost no point to using her since you get Takumi so shortly afterwards. Also no Niles on this list (It's fine though, he's only slightly better then Setsuna who I'd maybe put at low C high D).
Niles starts to shine once he becomes a bow knight.
niles had good utility and in a harder game so I would prob say hes as good as takumi
Niles got that capture though which is a way too good to pass up seeing as how good some of the enemy units are in conquest
You forgot Setsuna and Niles.
Wondered why they werent included
Hanakko Chan Cause he’s never used them so wouldn’t be able to rate them
@@Ragnell123 Ah, that makes sense.
@@Ragnell123 he did play conquest, he used Niles
He skipped Brigitte too
2:34 "Generally their biggest problem by far is not being able to attack on player phase."
i don't know what fire emblem you're playing but i can use my archers just fine on player phase
EP combat in FE3 Book 2 isn't really that desirable. Marth sets the pace of the game so you have plenty of time to kill enemies, the enemy density is really low and enemies hit hard often 3HKOing your units even with fairly high stats. Further the only units that have good 1-2 range are mages and tiki while a lot of enemies run 1-2 range so you aren't really going to be countering them with most units.
The sniper class actually has some really good perks, 7 move indoors and water walk which are both very relevant. I often describe Snipers in this game as Heroes that hit on 2 range because functionally that's what they are. Further the Parthia comes early and has the perk of doubling your experience gain and with FE3's fixed EXP gain you'll get full level ups from a dragon kill. While it's true any unit can take advantage of star shards, snipers level up faster and can get ridiculously high stats very early in the game. Of course Snipers also have utility against fliers which are also fairly common in the game.
Snipers are also some of the best units in the game for defeating Medeus quickly. Movement is kinda wonky during the fight so the ability to attack at 2 range provides a huge amount of flexibility. Snipers also tie a capped Tiki in terms of Damage at 5x2 vs 10 straight. Marth is the best at 10x2 but Medeus still has 52 hp so using a combination of characters is pretty useful.
I've rated Gordin the top of A tier on lists before and I legit mean it not as a joke. After Dracos, snipers are probably the best non unique class the game has to offer. I do actually agree with your Ryan C tier ranking though because his level and weapon level aren't very good. It'll take him a while to get access to the Parthia and even promoting to Sniper will either require you to slow down or wait until a much later point in the game compared to Gordin. He is legitimately good once you get him going but the cost is too high to warrant anything higher than C tier imo.
Should've rated them out of 5 points, with Gordin obviously getting the full 5
Mekkah: Archers are bad because they can't attack with one range.
Also Mekkah: People think Python is good because he can attack with one range. Which is really stupid.
mini bow, problem solved
MrGhosta5 OMASTAR
These tier lists really changed my perspective on a lot. Having beaten Sacred Stones 20+ times, I would've put Neimi in at least B tier, every time I've used her (Which is basically every playthrough) she came out to be a really useful unit and powerful unit. It's shocking how objectively bad a unit can be, despite them seeming amazing to you from your own personal experience. For example, if someone played FE6 and used Wolt, and that Wolt just so happened to get perfect level ups every single time, you'd be like "Oh my god he's amazing, best unit ever!" When in reality, he definitely is not.
Also, I would like to say, Gordon can be used as the substitute sacrifice in Normal Mode of Shadow Dragon and it lets you keep all your much better units like Frey, so like... S Tier.
Where are Bernie, Ignatz and Ashe?
Soren Fan they aren’t technically archers. They can become archers, but they don’t start as archers
@@sonicking0 But we had Hubert and Lorenz on the mage tier list.
They are all S-Tier because Archers are actually really good in 3H Claude being the best archer yet.
@@ZER0lPT Old Hard Modes: Archers barely usable, only viable in very select situations.
FE3H Maddening: You have an entire team of archers who occasionally pull out axes/lances.
@@PineappleLiar "Barely usable" I think you mean Awakening
Isn’t Setsuna in the game before Takumi?
TheGreatFirebolt She is in birthright, but since he hasnt played it I guess thats why she isnt here
yes she is mekkah forgot about her as well as niles, noire, kiragi, and everyone from 3 houses
@@MrGhosta5 Kiragi and Noire are not early game by any definition, and nobody in 3 Houses is necessarily an archer because they can choose to be anything else.
@@thomaswood8405 some units fit the archer role more than others, such as Ignatz and Ashe
@@glue5334 yes but Ignatz makes a good mage too. And Ashe makes a decent fighter/cavalier.
Takumi's personal bow gives him no terrain cost when traveling he is by far better than rainea
I feel like it’s important to note Neimi has a 55% HP growth and a 45% STR growth, which honestly I feel is pretty passable considering her fast support with Colm and getting the Orion’s bolt and access to Ranger pretty early.
I haven’t played with ALL the other archers but I feel like that definitely puts her about E, even with a terrible class. Personally I think throwing her around to chip and clean up alongside Colm and maybe some others prevents you from “wasting time and EXP” because SS maps aren’t that big either.
i think Neimi got rather shafted here. On top of a mount, she also gains D Swords on promotion, i.e the ability to counter on enemy phase, and cause her growths are actually alright, even if you go 10/1, she'll end up at 10str, 11skl, 12spd, 8lck, 7-8def and 8 res which are actually okay stats for a 10/1 unit early on. For reference, these are similar stats to a lvl10 unpromoted Franz, but with +3skl, +1spd and +5-6res. So you basically have a second Franz running around with 1/2 range. this comparison is apt cause she has a mount with rescue-drop utility, canto and 7mov on top of the combat.
and this early promotion itself is simple and painless since you get an uncontested free Orion's Bolt already at Chapter 6.
compare this to a mediocre(but generally considered okay) unit like Joshua who remains foot-locked, sword-locked with overkill speed and overkill crits that are never needed for the weak FE8 enemies and needs to contest for the Hero Crest, and it turns out Neimi ends up having significantly more utility as a unit for most of the game.
Overall not bad at all post-promotion, and actually solidly usable mid-late game allowing less countered player-phase with bows and enemy-phase with swords through trade-equipping. not great obviously, lacking 1-2 range and bad earlygame, but honestly better than almost every other archer in that list that just remains bad for the whole game.
Really, as Mekkah put it, it's dependent on how you use her. He was rating her under the assumption that you'd keep her around for the maps where she's auto-deployed and then write her off as a loss and bench her. Going all-in with her results in her having much better returns than the other bowfighters, but, well, most of the time on a standard playthrough, you won't really use Neimi.
She's got miserable con and loses 2 points of speed with a steel sword as a ranger. Yeah, FE8 enemies are pretty weak, but they're not that hilariously bad for the whole game that its worth putting in the effort to take her from 1 to 10 just so she can barely function for a little before getting dropped. Coulda just trained someone else in that time who won't drop off dramatically, since the early game is pretty easy and flexible in how you do it...
Hard agree on Joshua though, never liked using him. Swordsmasters really aren't very flexible units.
Huh no Norne
Interesting
I would assume it’s because in Fe11 she only joins in the easiest of the 6 difficulty settings, in which everyone is very usable (though since counterattacks are hardly scary in that one, you don’t really need bows as much) and only if you lose at least 2 people, and only Gordin is really as bad as her, so you’d need to sacrifice someone that’s better than her to get her. Her FE11 incarnation may as well be as bad as PoR Rolf, poor Norne lol. At least in FE12 she’s good because she actually joins you properly there, and bows are good in the harder difficulties, but she joins fairly late, maybe C tier for her?
In FE12 she joins underleveled and is female unit,but at least she has better growths so she has quite a use in FE12. So maybe D tier?
Male/female class locked classes still suck.
C tier just sounds to good,even if she's my all-time favorite character
@@emerald_blaze Bases > Growths, you fucking scrub
@@abcdefg98765 and her bases aren't good,didn't i said that?
Bad con,bad atk
Norne is based i love her
Can't wait for the earlygame armor knight tier list
No Holmes from Tear Ring Saga? That's tough.
What about Shinon? I've been really impressed with archers in the last 2 games. Claude and Leonie were incredible units - the best in my play-though.
Hah, you may thing your archer tier list is good. But have you ever thought of a Mangs and Mekkah playthrough tier list? I thought not.
YES, this was the idea I suggested in the mage video, thank you!
Great video as usual. Since you seems to be into tier lists, will you do one for lords ? As a special video maybe ? Anyway keep up the good work
There are 7 tiers:
E
D
C
B
A
S
Bernadetta
When I play Fire Emblem, I rate characters by how cute they are. Rebecca is S-tier for me, followed by Priscilla, Nino, Lyn, Florina, Clarine, Lilina, Shanna, Fir, Neimi, Tana, Marissa and Myrrh. Serra and Cath are there for the memes. Of course, Niime will always be Number 1 in my heart.
Where's Fiora???
She's WAAAAAAY cuter than florina
Takumi is pretty good. He can comfortably one round most stuff in Hard with Fujin Yumi. Fujin Yumi also lets him move through terrain unimpeded, which is useful on some maps. You can give Takumi a one range bow or promote him to Kinshi to give him an Enemy Phase. I'd say he's the best on this list except for maybe Python and Leon.
Also, please do a Bord & Cord tier list.
So before watching, my bets for top 3 is...
Faval, Takumi, Ronan
Ok... So... 0/3 I cant judge archers I guess
Takumi is pretty overpowered, especially for an archer. His bow is broken.
@@Diana-ny4bc He's a player phase unit in an enemy phase game, he is not that good.
@@kurodyne9692 I'm pretty sick of hearing that(not for Takumi but archers in general). it really isn't that hard to place archers an a way to where they will retaliate. I've used archers since the beginning.(My beginning was FE7) Every class has their positives and negatives. So use them to where their positives will be most effective and cover the negatives with other units that can with their own positives. It's not hard for archers to retaliate in enemy phases, and to the units that they cant, don't place them in the range of those people in the first place. Every class fills a role, and they are not all equal roles, but they all compliment each other.
But while every class has their role, the characters can change the meaning of that role with their own strengths and weaknesses. Archers tend to be flimsy, hit accurately, with mediocre to good damage and speed. Their best is a support unit to others, be it behind them or from afar, but that doesn't have to be all they do.
Takumi however hits like a truck, and can take a beating while he could still be hurting the enemy in enemy phase, with a 1 range bow that sucks if you really wanted him to as he still has ridiculous strength. He is pretty powerful for an archer.
Got any thoughts as to how i see it?
@@Diana-ny4bc The only situation in which an archer can retaliate is when facing one mage at the edge of their range (which is no better than killing one unit on player phase) or against clusters of archers that don't have melee units accompanying them (which is tremendously rare.) Nobody has ever said you CAN'T use archers; this isn't a tier list of E ranked units. But there are very few games where what archers do cannot be drastically outperformed by a mage or a 1-2 range unit with a javelin or handaxe. It isn't that hard to position archers for some retaliation; the problem is it's VERY easy to position other units to retaliate even more effectively and those other units generally come with much better stats.
Some of my favourite units are on this tier list and I happily use Rebecca, Wolt, Rolf and Gordin even though I know there are better options most of the time. But enemy-phase focused games do exist and archers are not as good at enemy phase as mages and 1-2 range characters, or even 1 range characters since they just have more enemies to counter.
Daz I think you make a decent point that the statement that "archers don't have an enemy phase" isn't exactly true, but the reality is that the role that archers fill (not getting countered on player phase) is not exclusive to them. Any cavalier with a javelin can do that and needs less precise placement to hit on enemy phase. The reality is, archers have fewer "positives" and more "negatives" than many other units. As for Takumi, he's good for an archer, I'll give you that. But Takumi, being "good for an archer," is an average unit in his game because he either requires precise placement to counterattack or is only useful for player phase. So many other units have more options than him, thanks to having one-two range or even just superior one-range. Archers lose out to units with viable one-two range (like ninjas in Fates), and when they do have a one-range option like the mini-bow, they still are generally worse than one-range units like myrmidons/samurai with more/better one-range options. Furthermore, IIRC Takumi can't get a one-range bow in Birthright without online content, so that argument is really only valid in Revelations. His offense may seem impressive, but Takumi is decent at best.
If you're going to do class tier lists, one way to account for games that can reclass is to only include units that start out in said class and dont let them reclass, only promote.
It wont be a super accurate showcase of that character but itll create some pretty interesting discussion imo
Surprised we haven't seen a Navarre tier list yet. That sword fighter who starts off as an enemy unit but is then recruited into your team, usually by a female cleric.
Dorothy is top tier if you put the list upside down
Fun fact I'm currently reaching the end of my first Hard mode playthrough and I just looked at Dorothy and was like "heh let's get her some kills for memes and lolz" but then she got some really great levels (str and spd mainly) and now she's one of the strongest in the army with capped strength and 23 speed. Fucking one-rounds mercenaries, and Hard Mode ones at that. I love FE6's bad units. First Wendy, and now this.
Just saw u typing in mangs' iron main stream chat just now lol
it be interesting to see where Shinon would be. The crossbow even though they aren't the best allows him to counter both ranges.
Shinnon and Rolf we’re my best characters both times I’ve played through
actually archers can be split into two different archetypes, the Shitty Early Archer who's bad but gets brownie points from being force deployed anyways and providing some free chip damage, and the Shitty Second Archer who's also bad but joins after you get battle preps so they never get deployed
Then the third type, The crit kings that crit everything and just murder everything even when you don’t want them too. Ex. Bernie, python
@@kyacase1109 don't forget about everyone's favorite Racist
Oh heck, was this a response to my comment in the last list? If so, I'm happy I had an idea you could do a vid on. If it's something that's been requested for a while then I'll just sit back down
26:30 I actually usually get Roy/Wolt C support because of the turtling on a few maps like Ostia Castle Town and the one with Saul and Dorothy's cameos. I like to take it so Steel Bow Wolt is decent at taking down Wyverns.
well...ok...but Neimi can also wield swords on top of getting a horse after promotion, so she can potentially contribute during the enemy phase. Plus with a horse she has rescue strats potential. And about how many characters on this list can you say the same? Certainly not Rebecca
Becca good tho
Quick note on Virion, outside of LTCs you do want to keep inheritance in mind when rating units since the child units are so busted in Awakening. Virion... doesn't have much tbh. His reclass options are Mage and Wyvern Rider, neither of which give much of anything outside maybe Lifetaker at Dark Knight 15.
Griffon Rider (a promotion option for Wyvern Rider) has the Deliverer skill. +2 Movement when paired up sounds like something noteworthy.
Python was amazing! He had amazing growths in my play through where he was outdamaging anything not Alm or Saber.
I think Python and Leon should be in A rank, due to at least being able to have some enemy phrase, so they can deal some damage.
Also the increased range and mount in the promoted class. Being able to move 8 spaces with an attack range 4 ( or 5 depending on the skill used)
You shouldn't count the shaky starting hit in the game against them, as you said everyone in Gaiden/Echoes at the start has that problem, so its not exclusive to them.
I have to agree with Eduardo. Early game they dont hit for much when they actually do manage a hit. I'll also put here that it's fair to still put accuracy into consideration because even with the 1-2 range Gaiden and Echoes has, you primarily only use Python and Leon as player phase units. Their ability to hit counts for more than any other character's.
The accuracy issues also make it more difficult to level them up to become snipers or bow knights, so getting to the promotion is more of a chore. I know that I dropped Python early on and when I'd realized that Leon got so much better after promoting, I had to go back and grind so I could promote and field Python.
Their upper mid and late game utility is great; stronger, more accurate, can actually hit things, not to mention there are more flying enemies rounding off the finsl few chapters. All of that safely puts them in B toer, but the struggle to get them that good cant really justify a higher ranking.
I'd love to see a tier list for really strong midgame prepromotes like Perceval or FE4 Ced. I'm not sure of they both fall under the same category, but it'd be cool.
Takumi actually ends up being quite the monster with his almost unrestricted movement, high str and mt combo, extremely high skill, and good speed. He gains more advantages from the Sniper class' stat growths and skills even if you decide not to use his Fujin Yumi, as it applies its effect to him as long as it's in his inventory. Though mounts are always useful, especially fliers, and movement is often necessary, he doesn't need it nearly as much as other units will.
Royals in general are great, so he doesn't stand out among them, but he does stand above many of the non-royals on your team. If you're worried about 1-2 range, he does have a few options and the effective speed loss doesn't effect him as much except on lunatic mode. And as i said before, he can use these options while still benefitting from Fujin Yumi's terrain traversal effect.
While it doesn't come up in a normal playthrough, it is worth mentioning point-blank is a skill that can negate his lack of great 1-2 range options.
I miss RD Shinon on this tier list , but oh well the video is long as it is
Well he is a higher leveled sniper so rolf and leonardo are better picks
He's a Sniper, not an Archer.
@@Mekkkah Technically.... Rolf starts as a sniper in Radiant Dawn too, albeit level one. But I get what you mean, Shinon still has that pre-promotey vibe. He's much better than Rolf either way. :)
It would be nice to see Shinon on here just so Mekkah could talk about how good he is. Or maybe Mekkah doesn't think he's good, which would be sad.
@@SharurFoF that's very true. Though i feel like Shinon in RD is a very good unit, Marksmen are quite good in that game.
Years ago I did a playthrough of path of radiance and in the chapter Rolf joined i filled his inventory with iron bows and repeatedly farmed the boss for like 200 turns since he stands on a healing tile and got him to like level 15 before finishing the chapter. By the end of the game he was a beast.
Doga / early armour knight tier list next?
Navarre tier list next? or probably just flashy sword boyos in general
Niles should definitely be on here, even though his class doesn't specifically say Archer. High resistance and insane speed for when you get him, theif utility, can use ballista, gives movement and speed on pair-up, becomes a 9-mov bow knight on promotion and can kidnap enemy units. He falls off eventually because of inherently using bows and his physical bulk being bad, but he's still extremely useful throughout most of the game for a non-royal - solid A. His daughter is also cute.
I’ve always had a soft spot for archers, always try to have at least 1 Sniper or BowKnight in any playthrough. That being said they suck. I love my bois Leonardo & Jamke but they both suck (for very different reasons though, if Jamke was in RD he’d basically be Shinnon 2). I think why I love archers so much is that they’re the perfect difficulty level to train for me. Not as horrible as training the joke/worst units in the game, but still a bit of a challenge compared to your average unit. Usually don’t have to put too many resources in them either because there’s not much competition for bows/GBA promotion and most of them will be good at combat at some point in the game due to good growths or bases. I know they’re bad and I know it’s a pitfall but I hate getting a Brave Bow or something and not having anyone to use it.
Thankfully Echoes archers become really great with Killer Bows.
Virion tiering by difficulty:
Normal: E tier, no enemy phase
Hard: E tier, no enemy phase
Lunatic: E tier, no enemy phase
Lunatic+: B tier, no enemy phase
Rolf in E-Tier? Shiiiiieett I used him in EVERY playthrough, he be hittin heavy armor units for like 30 damage twice
In all honesty I think that takumi is worthy of top spot, possibly even A tier. You get him at a point where he can double most enemies and has the strength of his Fujin Yumi to back him up. And his growths, while it is fates, are still respectable for an archer unit.
There's a few decent ones.
Ryan in FE12 on higher difficulties is nice to have around with ranged damage.
Rolf isnt terrible in FE10. Yes Shinon is better, but that doesnt mean Rolf is garbage in that one. (Dont worry, I agree he is BAD in FE9 xD)
Python is nice thanks to Archer's range in Echoes, and Takumi......I dont like him, but he's good.
I cant really speak for FE1-5, since my playtime on those are minimal. Other than that, Archers CAN be nice from time to time. 3x effective archers can be great against fliers, and Snipers are good in several games. Plus, nothing feels better than to put an archer behind a wall and have them enemy phase a few enemies xD
EDIT: I actually agree with most of your list here! :D The only thing Id change is putting the FE10 scrubs over the FE5 scrubs. Just because there are more situations where they are helpful over what Ive seen from FE5's. Nice video.
Rolf is better, by the time he is the same level as Shinon he already capped stats Shinnon would not have. FE10 specifically. He was so good to the point that he was one of the best people to be used in endgame. Shinnon starts better due to that higher level, but finishes worse.
@@Diana-ny4bc LMFAO There is NO situation where Rolf is better than Shinon. His growths are marginally better while Shinon starts off much higher in all stats that matter, as well as having higher bow rank and easier access to Silencer. Anyone who thinks Rolf is 'one of the best people to be used in endgame' is stupid.
@@Diana-ny4bc Rolf is arguably better at like... Early part 4. Yes, he has better stats at equal level, but that's totally irrelevant considering Shinon has a huge level advantage. Couple that with a better affinity, better durability and FE10 stat caps making a growth lead largely irrelevant and it's absurd to argue Rolf over Shinon. Especially considering, due to how bexp tends to work, Rolf's stat lead basically disappears after one or two chapters, and Shinon ends up better in Endgame anyway.
That said, FE10 archers are not that good in general. Yeah Marksman having 3 range is cool, but FE10 is a very enemy phase heavy game. There's a lot of 2 range enemies in the game which does help, but it's overall not enough to make Snipers good, just less bad.
Kinda weird, I never bothered using Rolf in Fe10, because Shinon is aviable right away and
In FE9 I never use Shinon, because he joins so late and my Astrid or Rolf outshine him by miles when he finally joins.
Rolf requires insane babying to level him up in PoR. And at the end his contributions will still be bad. The only good he can provide is hitting Ravens on the boat level. RD shinnon is by far better than Rolf due to speed and bulk. Rolf has insane str and str growth, so leveling him up is fun seeing capped Str. I think it's like 70%? But he's limited to still 2 range and 3 if you decide to give him kills instead of using better units like shinnon. Only one double bow in the game for 1-3 range. The str stat would be more useful if crossbows weren't based on Mt of the weapon.
I think the FE4 archers deserve a bit better. There is no opportunity cost for deploying them and Jamke/Faval have a pretty easy time with the arena, meaning they get an uncontested source of EXP and gold. Even if they barely contribute anything, you don't lose anything in order to reap what little benefit they may give you, which is more than can be said for most archers in the series.
How would you buff archers? I remember you saying in Mangs' RD lp that 1-2 range archers in hacks are "basic bitch". I personally think it should be either they have 1-2 range/close counter, or 2-3(+) range but not both, which is what Gaiden/Echoes/Three Houses did. Granted, Gaiden/Echoes gave bows low hit to counteract it a bit.
I had to pause during the character introductions, because I want to know where Innes was for FE8. FE8 was actually the first game I ever played in the series, and Innes actually turned out to be one of the more important units in my runthrough. I basically replaced Neimi with him.
I know it in no way makes her any better as a unit, but I once had a randomized run where Rebecca was a Wyvern Rider and capped 5 stats (I think she had a combined 450% growth rate). In that run, iron lances had 12 might as well... It was therapeutic seeing her eat every boss for breakfast since I always wished she was good.
I just wanted to say that Gordin as a Cavalier was one of my best unit at FE12.
Seriously, the dude got so lucky.
He capped STR so freaking early, his SPD was Aran-Level (which was really okay for me, since he managed to get into a better spot after Promotion), had the 2° best DEF of the team (losing only to Wyvern Lord Sirius), his SKL didn't matter and his LCK was able to get Killer Weapons at 10% Crit. His HP was probably the only mediocre thing about him (which was about 36-45 around the game).
The only problem was...Minerva died before recruitment, which means...yeah, no good ending.
Damn, I miss him...
no Leonardo from Radiant Dawn makes me sad
And he put RD Rolf who is a sniper
Leo is absolute dogshit
Someone didn’t watch the vid lmao
Infinite pasta yeah but he’s the same tier class as the rest of the Greil mercenaries, it’s like he’s archer 2
Leo is D rank, watch the vid lol
Takumi is really cool, I feel his utility of getting over terrain for free is not thought of that much. He's still an archer that can't counter-attack with doubles but it does go stated that he can pick and choose his fights freely cause terrain doesn't affect him. I haven't played Fates in a year but I remember Takumi saving my ass so many times.
Glad to see Rolf get the shit he deserves. I grew up with FE9 and played it way more than any other FE. I trained Rolf multiple times. And every time, I wanted to pull my hair out, because it is just not worth it. His personal bow isn't, recruiting Shinon isn't and he himself definitely isn't. And to make it worse, any mage with access to Wind can get that juicy effective damage against fliers in FE9.
I was literally just recommended this video like it was new
I've used Rolf on hard made in path of radiance multiple times. He really isn't that bad and isn't that hard to train up on the level you get him. Rolf is one of my favorite characters in Fe so take what I say with a grain of salt
>reading description
>not as top heavy as Camilla
>nice
Rolf is better than you seem to think in Path of radience. I'd bump him up to A tier personally, sure he joins at lvl 1 but putting in the effort to leveling him actually will have him out pace Shinon. this has been the consistent result for me in every play through.
RIP Norne. Gone and forgotten.
I normally enjoy your tierlists (loved the christmas cavaliers)
But I don't know how to feel about this one, you used the premise of how usefull they are in their game without considering their game mechanics, I would had preferred "the how it is compared to others archers in the series".
Like, considering echoes archers are boosted with melee retaliate and ballista range, they should be S tier.
This also hurts units like our favorite boy Ronan, who have a "good" move growth, also Thracia units have the innate "move again", "extra move", "free move", "dance to themselves" (can't remember how you call it), and the scrolls exists too!
In case of Fanval, you can alter his skills, initial equipment, I feel he deserves a little more consideration.
Jamke is like the one I feel the most rare case, its like you extra punish him because he is somewhat popular, you always say it's the killer bow thats good, not him, and that is true, but in terms of investment, you have almost nothing to do, if anything at all, to make him good at arena, sure, he suffers in chapters 2 and 3 because of him not having mount, but thats the job of your mounted units.
Finally, much at my demise, basically any archer with a reclass option should move up at least 1 tier, just as you like to say, you can just sell the Killer bow, you can just reclass from archer, and escape this whole "bad class tier list"
Oof, that was extra long, all of this is like a "costumer feedback"? If that is applyable at all, still love and watch your content Mekkah :)
Commenting for that sweet, sweet TH-cam algorithm
A gordin is an archer with perfect availablity and stats that are the opposite of that
Takami carried me through Birthright. I feel he deserves at least A tier.
boss tier list.
Which one was the most challenging? Find out nest time.
what's the name of the song at the start of the video?
Rolf has 2 things going for him in PoR are 1, His crit rate is super good plus he has a bond with oscar and boyd which raise it even higher, and 2 he's like the only character who can take advantage of the gamble scroll reliably, he doubles most enemies and with a killer bow he get a 100% crit and either 1 hit kills or he misses 2 60-80% hits. but that's about it, because he takes a lot of bxp that could go to a unit who can actually fight on enemy phase lol.
Ryan's honestly really solid, although I personally prefer reclass him immediately to a Merc or even Myrm for that sweet, sweet Speed base, and then promote him to a Horseman to make use of both of his weapon ranks. I think he's overall a bit better than Gordin, thanks to prologue EXP and WEXP (and do you really want to pass on Athena on higher difficulties?) and better growths in almost all stats.
In Thracia I think bows are actually good weapons in a vaccum.The lack of capture is not a big deal at all, specially as you progress with the game, capturing becomes less relevant. Also, the game gives a lot of tools that enphacises Player Phase actions, so the lack of Enemy Phase doesn't concern me most of the time either. And then there's the Brave Bow, it's a really strong wepaon that greatly improves the combat of who wields it. But that's in a vaccun, before analyszing the units who wields bows.
The problem is, with the exception of Selphina and Xavier, all other bow users starts with a feeble E Rank (or gain access to E rank after promotion), and considering how slow it is to raise weapon ranks in this game, it's a huge detriment on it's own. And among that E rank gang, with the exception of Dagda, every other one of them starts very underleveled and with bad bases.
It's so frustrating, because bows have great potential, but most units who can use them are just so underwhelming.
Tanya has a higher STR growth than Othin tho
Just mentioning the 3-13 archer threw me 10 years back
Why aren't there any Three Houses students that start out with a Bow like Bernadetta?
Because they're not set in stone as archers. Besides, we all know they'd be top tier because Bow Knight is OP
I feel Castor from FE 1 and 11 and Niles from Fates - Conquest ought to be somewhere here as well. They're not officially archer class units, but honestly... for all intents and purposes, they may as well be. They're bow-locked units and come very early in their games. Castor comes just one chapter after Gordin does and his hunter class is essentially the same as Archer, but with slightly better speed and an extra point of movement in exchange for being even more fragile somehow.
And Niles is an outlaw... which is also effectively a thief, but he is Conquest's designated early Bow user all the same.
Where would you stick them on this list, out of curiosity?
Castor is a million times better than gordin honestly
A 60 percent str growth in an old fe game is incredible and a horse upon promotion is more than enough