The History of the NovaBus LFS and How it DOMINATED the Bus Market
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- āđāļāļĒāđāļāļĢāđāđāļĄāļ·āđāļ 7 āļ.āļĒ. 2024
- The NovaBus LFS platform is one of if not the most prolific platforms in transit fleets today. But it didn't always start that way. Here is how the LFS started, flopped, and then became the force it is now and how/why it got there.
* While in the editing stage, I saw the first of Translink's Nova LFS CNGs at a Cummins shop in Port Kells, making what I said at 10:00 age like milk ð
#novabus #lfs #bus
New Flyer was producing fleets of D40LFs by 1991. BC Transit Victoria had an entire fleet. They were also used elsewhere in Canada. Vancouver didn't come on board until 1996 however.
But the model still existed in NFI's portfolio
I work for a transit commission in Ontario and we have a good mix of Flyers and Novas and I find I like driving both for different reasons.
I like Novas and our Hybrid Novas (the only hybrids we have are Novas, we only have diesel NFs so I don't know what those hybrids are like to be fair) because the ride is smoother and it's easier for me to find a comfortable position for my short stature to sit and reach the pedals comfortably. I like the NFs because of how much quicker they are but they make it a bit harder for me to find a comfortable position where I'm not straining my foot.
Our Novas are hella slow tho, don't get me wrong. But I don't mind which one I get when I go to work.
I hate how the pedals are positioned it feels like my foot is sitting two feet off the floor but I like the power nf has
In Quebec itâs a must to have LFS as no transport agency would be able to justify buying anything else in large volumes since NovaBus is partly based in Saint-Eustache. NovaBus has politically engineered themselves to a monopoly in this province. Plus, it makes sense to have a single bus type in your fleet from a logistical perspective since you only need to have your mechanics and support staff trained on one bus platform. I like the gen 2s and the newest gen 4.5s but I even I have to admit that LFS buses spend too much time on the side of the road and behind tow trucks ð. Canât wait for the STM, RTL and STL to retire the gen 3 scrap
Honestly itâs a miracle that the STM was able to get those electric New Flyers without being reprimanded by the provincial government
Im pretty sure its because the NovaBus electric buses were fucking ass. STM originally started electric buses by installing NovaBus Electric Buses on the 36 Monk line but then we never saw them expand to other bus lines... â@zacflynn1386
@@ronaldmcdonald6067 The 36 is experimental. It's a top-off system so it's restricted to the two chargers in Angrignon and Square Victoria.
Eventually the STM decided to go with buses that can hold a days' worth of juice instead of 2 trips, because they can be charged indoors (it can get really COLD here) overnight when power is cheaper.
You ask most operators and they'll tell you they prefer driving New Flyers thanks to the better design and driver's seat position. It's a shame Translink didn't stick with New Flyer, letting their entire fleet be built in Western Canada. I'm sure the popularity of the New Flyer had an impact on Translink's order, but I recall an operator saying the Nova's were just cheaper! Various Canadian cities have obvious regional preferences. Most Western Canadian cities are all New Flyer (especially Winnipeg), Quebec and the Maritimes favour Nova, and the TTC has a mix, but also historically hates New Flyer.
In ny bee line Westchester county NY, they don't like the xcelsiors buses
Other GTA agencies have a mix of both New Flyers and Novas, but seems to prefer New Flyers. YRT and MiWay still have a fleet of D40LFs running.
In Chicago, I asked 2 drivers whether he would drive the nova, the proterra, or the D40LF, and he said the D40LF, one said the Proterra BE40 looked like a spaceship, the Nova was hard to steer, and the D40LF was fast, and one driver said the D40LF was faster, quicker, and the nova was very slow and felt heavier
Nova bus exits USA market by 2025
This video: *exists*
New flyer in the states: *am I a joke to you*
Big eastern Canada vibes ðŦĻ wait till you hear about the latest EPA requirements
That BC Ferries joke was spot on. Haha
Recently, I have grown fond of the old gen 2s as they reach the age of retirement. 1990's design, but still looks nice today (fits in with Montreal's metro. Stations designed in the 60's and 70's along with a lot of rolling stock from the 70's, but it all still looks more modern than MANY other metro systems in North America).
However, it frustrates me how, in 2024, Novabus still only makes 70% low floors and lag way behind what they have elsewhere. Sure, the gen 4s are among the nicest buses to ride in North America (the aircon is very appreciated on hot days), but they don't hold a candle to the buses you see in Europe, which is made even more frustrating by the fact Novabus is owned by Volvo. Have you seen Volvo's own electric buses they sell? Why can't we have stuff like that made here?
A few mistakes in this video. First GM sold their transit bus division to Greyhound-Dial in 1987 not the early 1990s. Greyhound Dial inherited the Canadian built Classic and the plant in Ste Eustache, Quebec and this was placed under the MCI division. The American built RTS had its production moved to the MCI subsidiary TMC plant in Roswell, New Mexico. Also the RTS was never called the RTS Classic. Greyhound-Dial spun off the bus building business in early 93. The motorcoach side MCI and its plants in Winnipeg and Pembina was sold to a few American investment firms and Mexico's Dina. The transit division was sold to the new Nova Bus who inherited the plant in Quebec. The TMC plant in New Mexico and the RTS would be under Dina MCI until 94 when that was sold to Nova Bus. MCI and TMC were quite successful with sales of the Classic and RTS for several years after. Ironically Orion which was taken over by Daimler Chrysler A.G. when they purchased its owner Western Star Trucks, was shut down in 2013 had its aftermarket parts business sold to New Flyer. Also in 2015 New Flyer acquired its crosstown rival MCI, both were founded in Winnipeg, which gives New Flyer a foothold in the Motorcoach market.
In Quebec, most transit agencies have to use Nova LFS as the government pays for buses. Montreal has several New flyer electric buses which I happen to like so much better than the Nova LFS buses.
Great video.
Honolulu has 24 2010 NovaBus LFS but we are soon to activate 16 NovaBus LFS Artic this year
I just wish we had some European busses in canada. All the North American made busses kind if suck. Some ecitaro or hess bus would be awesome.
YRT bought a handful of Van Hools for the VIVA BRT, but most of them has been relegated to regular services
The Canadian bus industry is protected by non-tariff trade barriers. Otherwise, none of the buses they make here could compete because they are obsolete and uncompetitive against European models.
@@InfinityR319 A handful? The entire original VIVA fleet was Van Hools. As far as I know they had 40 of the A330 and 41 of the AG300 articulated busses. That's 81, not a handful. I still see some of the A330s on some VIVA service at 18 years old. Some have been converted to YRT service (and are by far the pretties busses in the fleet, they look amazing in YRT colours). Seems all the AG300s have been retired a couple of years ago, with some of them running YRT service for a few years in the 20 (jane) and 90 (leslie) routes until they got more LFS artic or new flyer XD60s. Seems all VIVA service these days is either Novabus LFX or LFS (with the flush window option) artic or in the case of weekend service on some routes the old A330s. Apparently getting parts for the van hools was a slow process given there was no other Canadian operator and buying the LFX and later LFS meant they were buying Canadian busses which made some funding easier to get. For north america the van hools still look very modern, even though when new (20 years ago) they were probably among the most dated looking busses made in Europe. The Novabus with the flush windows BRT option looks a lot more modern than pretty much anything else in north america these days, but for some reason most operators want stupid windows that can open with ancient rubber seal designs from the middle of the 20th century. I don't understand it.
1:28 Hello, I know people who live in this town, and I go there often.
Itâs pronounced âSaint You-Stache (as in moustache)â
We only have mainly three different buses here in California, Gillig, New Flyer and MCI for our Transit services.
Before we did have Grumman-Flxible, GMC-RTS, Gillig and MCI.
I did like both the Grumman-Flxible and the GMC-RTS, they were my favorite buses.
New Flyer now owns MCI.
Stockton is the place I have seen and LFS in California.
As just a transit rider and petrolhead, I find it very interesting that the 1st gen and most 2nd gen LFSes had their engines pushed allll the way left. No wonder the 130s serving Metrotown, among many other routes that still have more 2nd gens than 3rds have the rear seats all bunched on the right.
Also want to mention I love how the hybrid diesels sound. There's prominent turbo spooling and hybrid whine, wastegate flutter under heavy throttle and an aggressive exhaust note. Vaguely reminds me of an Eastern European diesel tank with hybrid noises thrown in
My Transit agency (TriMet) has Nova Bus LFS Arctics but these LFSs werenât great. Pulled off the road and got recalled and was put back into service but even then, the route that these Nova Buses are supposed to run (FX2) has a good amount of 40ft Gillig BRTs. TriMet has a phobia of New Flyer. With Nova Bus being gone from the US, Xcelsiors are the only way out at this point for 60ft buses.
Nova Bus has some success in the US but thereâs regions that lack any Novas (PNW with TriMet being the only agency having Novas)
You should do a History of Orion video
It's sad Diamler Benz couldn't make a go with Orion.
2005/2006 is arguably the best year for novabus
Their success is due to New Flyer being overloaded with orders. Im speaking for Vancouver on this one. In 2007 to 2011, translink was pissed off with New Flyer at the time for some reason. In 2018 it was because translink had a huge order that had to be split in half and 2023 present, its becaus New Flyer does not have production space due to a covid backlog.Calgary, Regina, Saskatoon, and various Ontario and maritime agencies like the corrosion resistant frames. Ontario and various maritime agencies like Nova Bus for the nearby factory.
I don't mind the LFS units, because they were kinda the buses that I took the most. (And no I am not a North-Van person)
More like Canada. The Gillig Phantom and Low Floor were basically ignored here. In the US, the LFS is basically nonexistent in states west of the Mississippi very rare in the South, mostly confined to the midwest and northeast.
Iâm from NYC, and Iâll be honest, the 2011-2015 LFSes were good in terms of build quality, however after that, everything went downhill. The build quality got insanely cheap and they break down almost every single day (the newest ones mostly). The MTA ordered lots and lots of LFS HEVs from 2020-2023, and more diesels being delivered right now. In my opinion, New Flyer is a much better option right now, even though their build quality has also been getting worse over the last couple years.
@@egorstaroverov326 it's because of USA building buses.
MORE OF THIS STYLE OF VIDEO
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean, i understand talking about Vancouver buying them, but wouldn't it make sense to use the stm since they have had around every model and have 2,000 purchased instead of smaller purchases like 141 buses
I actually like those buses
Here in Minnesota we rarely had nova busses and it its was only on MVTA (2013-2021) we only have gilligs and new flyers with voith and zf ecolife. Allison is very rare here as well.
Shame NovaBus is pulling out of the US market....
Great shots of all my favouirte bus stations!
Personally, I like the designs of the New Flyer Xcelsior XN40 as they look modern and proportional.
The Nova buses look weird and disproportional due to their smaller wheelbase. Sure, it may mean the Nova buses has a slightly tighter turning radius, but the New Flyer buses just look better overall.
These buses are some of the most unreliable buses I have ever ridden. I was on an LFS artic and it broke down at the terminal, with its rear wheel smoking. These buses consistently break down mid route here in Halifax.
Edit: now we need one about the D40LF
I work for a transit agency we have 45 Nova LFS busses... lets just say we have some from 2005 to 2017 a few each year. the 05-07 are so much better with the power and pickup speed and good restarters. the newer busses we have are mehh and always down for some sort of service issue. mostly trany issues or Regen/D.E.F systems
Meanwhile, Novabus is dominating NYC Transit. Another 275 buses are here at Septa, and there's no issue.
@@danielsamuels5857 Iâm not saying all transit systems have issues with the novas but a lot of them do, drivers in Halifax arenât too keen about them.
I see these busses absolutely everywhere. Theyâre not bad either! You knowâĶ theyâre busses. Shame the busses in North America are so dated even nowadays, compared to the ones used in Europe.
By 2027, Nova will have a new platform to replace the LFS. They are increasing work to develop it throughout 2025.
From how I see Translink's bus fleet I've always believed it was half Nova & half New Flyer just like every transit system in North America ever
The majority of NFTA metro buses in the system are Novabus LFS and most of them are cngs. they had some 1999-2000 Novabus lfs buses that lasted for 21 years until retirement in 2021 early 2022.
I would argue that the LFS isn't the most prolific bus by any stretch. I think that this title is undeniably given to the New Flyer Excelsior, as much I as despise nfi I think they are definitely the most common bus in north america hands down.
As a long term bus rider in the Lower Mainland, the D40LF wasn't uncommon so I'm not sure if it wasn't commercially successful
The D40LFs sold like hot cakes! Major examples include CTA (1000+ units), Septa (around 1000 units), MBTA (400-500 units), Houston Metro ( 800-900 units), MTA Maryland (around 300 units), and more...
I'm going to be "that guy" but, I can't believe bro doesn't (or did not meantion) Gillig. I know gillig isn't I thing in Canada but you can't say North America without Gillig. Even in the 90s they were pretty popular with the Gillig phantom and now very very popular with the Gillig Low Floor. At least on the west coast which is my prospective Nova Bus can be few and far between and the Gillig Low Floor might be the number 1 spot. Especially for small towns because of the lack of a 60 ft modal they are prominent. Also also Flxible was just dying a slow and painful death until 1996 but was still a part of bus market.
Gillig is based in the SF Bay Area and many transit agencies in California use Gillig units exclusively. Sacramento RT is pretty much an all Gillig fleet
There was also NABI (North American Bus Industries), formerly part of Hungary's Ikarus.
You can't pronounce St Eustache? Don't look at a map of Wales then as you'd likely suffer an aneurysm trying to work out those names.
My French is brutal ð
@@carvolthproductions555 ooostash basically, and its not really a small town. Its a suburb of montreal.
Better quality than any of the Dumpster Flyers
You're going to make a video about a bus that dominates the market and you're not even going to talk about the new flyer xcelsior?
Xcelsiors dominate more in NA than Nova Bus. Considering the fact that there are areas in the US that lack Nova Bus
YOOOOO TTC GOT A SHOUT OUT! (Canadians in the replys)
Nova bus doesn't dominate in the USA and Canada, new flyers dominate
Novabus is everywhere in Canada because we have the same domestic producer rules as the US where agencies have to purchase buses from domestic producers and Nova is based out of Saint-Eustache in Quebec. If you go to Quebec, almost very single transit bus will be an LFS. Toronto orders dozens of them every year.
My city in alberta is also full of LFS. We have a couple New Flyers kicking around, but they are far less common than the LFS
â@jacobfalardeau67I understand, but y'all have new flyers, which is your company, a Canadian company, not usa
Orion was always will be and will forever be
The current gen 4 Nova buses are nice but as a passenger the earlier versions are garbage. Not a fan of the weird seat layout in the back with the two seats facing one another and glad they changed that with the gen 4s. Still prefer the ride and the rear seating layout of the New Flyer Xcelsiors.
Buses from Europe way better than the North America
Ok? Good for you
The LFS and the Citaro are likely my favourite buses in each region.
You should say that to the mechanics at the RTC in Quebec City. Back in 2016, they announced a project which was the order of 64 units of 30 feet buses. While other agencies ordered canadian made Diesel powered Vicinity, guess who won the contract of the RTC? VAN HOOL from Belgium... 'cause the buses ABSOLUTELY had to be hybrid! They took delivery of a single unit in 2018 and the 63 others came in 2019. They're giving headaches to the mechanics and engineers since their arrival. They break down so often that most of 'em are in limited use at a point where they only see rush hour service after only 5 years!!! Some units are even stored. In Quebec City, Buses normally go in limited use when they reach 7, 8 years old with an odometer that reads 500 or 600 000km. I don't know how Vicinitys are doing, but our Van Hool A330K are by far the worst piece of garbage we have in the fleet. The most shocking thing is... the price per unit, which was higher than a Novabus LFS HEV and when the government fund buses, transit agencies must keep 'em in service for at least 16 years... Van Hool is going bankrupt and we're stuck with these 64 units for may be 10 more years. How cool is that! Another great idea from the former municipal administration. ðĪ
AC Transit found out Gilligs were better than Van Hools.
NovaBus is very futuristic for a bus
Find it interesting that Canadian transit operators hated the RTS and love the LFS.
When I was young I travelled on the Hydro Bus in Langley, very cool. Thank you.
I drive the LFSs and LFSAs in NYC and they're really nice buses overall. But unfortunately Nova is leaving the US market next year leaving us with just New Flyer orders for the future. I do love New Flyer but i also like having variety in the fleet.
Yeah, sucks Orion is gone now.
No love for Gillig, it seems.
@@O530CarrisPT_C2 To be fair, Gillig has very little MTA history. The closest thing they got nowadays is NICE bus's backing.
@@dodge1515 Yeah, GILLIG is mainly used for more smaller suburban transit agencies but MTA did test a GILLIG Phantom Hybrid in 2005 or so.
However, they do have some big TAs though. Examples include Kings county Metro, Miami-Dale Transit ,and Minneapolis Metro. Also some mid-sized ones like MARTA, NICE, Ride-On, Centro, LYNX, and more.
one time i was riding the CTA 26 bus and they were running these instead of one of their articulated ones, it broke down right in the middle of lake shore drive lmao
Can you make the rise of Orion and fall of Orion
Super Video!. In Puerto Rico we star to uniform all of the fleet of AMA (Metropolitan Bus Authority in English) of Novabus, today with have 64 of 134 for ours 32 bus routes!!
That rear end looks familiar. What's old is new again. YES! Back in the late 70s, they were the new thing. Let me see if I can find a link to these buses.
You see the back of bus in the 1970s
th-cam.com/video/Ad9kQVSu5XE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2NqBjCx7D9aY60xz
You never mentioned the Invero?
Nova is leaving the US due to the volume of new business (Bid wins) declining and thereby barely breaking even. Also, due to the increasing volume of Canadian orders, especially from Quebec operators, it made financial sense to focus on the Canadian market. With the exception of large repeat orders from NYCTA and Chicago CTA plus large single orders from Philadelphia and Baltimore, Nova's US footprint was not significant, with almost no presence west of the Mississippi.
NFI dominates the US market, but Gillig is a smaller but significant force.
Donât a lot of people hate NovaBuses though? Lol
ðpresent
Yeah.... I used to be one of them but now start to appreciate them as they're getting closer to retirement
@@carvolthproductions555 didn't they just order a bunch more ð
@@Carbaminohemoglobin I heard some of them will be based out of Coquitlam ð idk, something about Novaâs kinda makes me think theyâre like a knockoff to the superior transit buses in the system ð
@@justinm.1 I mean the 2nd Gen Novas
Three 2009 HEVâs already retired ð
RIP. One was retired because of fire damage. I donât know about the other two.
@@carvolthproductions555the other too retired because they were having hybrid issues they are both currently sitting in VTC
"With a Friendly but Nieve look in the front and a smooth rear" .. ok i was reading through the comments and no one has jokenly mentioned a sexy exhaust pipe.
Note: I am not attracted to bus exhaust pipes or exhaust pipes of any vehicle.
great video! I love the novas, much better design than its competitors. i will miss the gen2s especially. i like how cozy the gen2s are, especially in the back by the left-handed engine.
personally I just like the looks of New Flyer busses better im not a fan of (mostly the older ones) nova busses design.
They not in Cincinnati or columbus
please make a new flyer video D40LFâs and D60LFâs are my favorites
Can you please do a similar video to this but for other bus models like Orion V/Vii New Flyer D40 HF/LF e.t.c?
All my homies hate novabuses
Fair
I like the Novas especially the 2009 HEVs
@@JosephLikesTransit that's the exact worst one ð The 2018 ones are slightly more tolerable
@@Carbaminohemoglobin thatâs your opinion
@@JosephLikesTransit well... Yeah ? What's your point ?
0:34 no mention of Neoplan?
This bus is extremely ugly, I donât understand why they donât have such beautiful buses (like the Mercedes-Benz Citaro) in the US. Much more comfortable and way more beautiful
Terrible design
TTC novas = the worst to ride, the best to shoot Jesus my grandma can outrun the bus and there's no space in the back too many seats
quebecker here
Saint - U - Stache
thatâs how you say it. Saint-Eustache.
Our towns are fucked ð
Kwebecker
Your post had 3 points:
1. You are from Quebec.
2. Correct pronunciation of Saint-Eustache.
3. Crude commentary on towns.
Points 1 and 2 are logically related to each other, but 3 seems unconnected, unexplained, random, and abusive. Is it normal for francophonies in Canada to use obscene English words when writing a message intended for public viewing?
they are horrible to ride. Noisy, everything rattles, horrible body roll (body roll on turns even the slightest turns, and pitching when breaking) and the air conditioning is so weak on them. A 20 year old New Flyer is so much better.
LFSes would be better buses if they didn't shake themselves to death
Xcelsiors better ð
AKA The Junkcelsior!!
Novabus trash
yep novascrap !
The 1st generation LFS is still in use in Quebec. Soo ugly!
what the hell happened to your voice
LFS stands for Low Floor System!
The worst busses man, the worst. only reason they are so prolific is friends helping friends out.
Fair. I also used to despise them until recently
Whyâs that?
@@carvolthproductions555R9551 had an engine fire on January 2 so that bus is not in service right now
There not the worse in Canada and USA, it's byd buses are the worst
Gilig is worse
Saint-Eustache, QuÃĐbec... Unpronounciable?
Come on! Wikipedia has the answer, right out of the gate!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Eustache,_Quebec
Go there, and the way to say it is at very beginning...
(Note: it's a City, not a Town!)
My French is brutal ð