The Truth About Heavy Arrows! Real Test And Where’s The Tradeoff?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- How much will going to heavier arrows really affect your traditional bow setup? We’re going to do a live test today just to find out how much you really give up in trajectory and performance!
Thanks Jeff!! Much appreciated!👍🙏
I stay with Dr Ashby minimum 650 grain arrow with his 12 steps to lethality , he even brings the kids out with 37 pound recurve with 650 grain minimum on heavy bone penatration, it's quite and deadly and lethal. Glad you did this test today 🫡
I feel the same way keep those light arrows at the 3d range. I'll keep my bone splitting 705gr 2219
That's what in talking about Doug, damaging freight train there bud.
Fantastic video Jeff! There are a great many of us out here that can not handle the heavy draw weights due to shoulder injuries. You just made countless numbers of us very happy with this demonstration of how to build the proper hunting arrow for a sub 40# draw weight. God bless you!
That was a real eye opener!
Another outstanding video. Thank you for the content. Great job!
Good stuff. Keep it coming. You do a great job teaching us.
Great demonstration...!!
Just the test I wanted to see! Really nice to see this test done with a low poundage bow too. That 680 you can hear it smack the target pretty good too.
Thanks for the great info once again! God bless
Thank you, what a great teaching.
Love to see a penetration test , light vs. Heavy all other things being equal. Thank you for all the work!
I’ll sure be working on that my friend! Thanks 👍🏻
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 Ed Ashby has already done the penetration tests. Targets, cardboard, foam, gel, they all stop projectiles with friction. The more surface area entering the target, the higher the friction. None of these target bleed (lubricate).
Thanks!
Another good subject to talk about Jeff. I bow hunt for elk. My hunting blind is only 14 yards from the game trail. i won't take a shot over 20 yards. I wanted to build, as Troy Fowler calls it, a plan B arrow. What I came up with is a Gold Tip Traditional XT shaft, 300 grains up front for a total arrow weight of just under 700 grains. At any distance they shoot like bullets. I haven't chronographed them because I don't care about the speed. I'm very confident that shooting these with a single left bevel broadhead on them they will perform very well as far as penetration goes, especially if plan "B" comes into the situation. Thanks for another good video buddy!
Jim
Man yea! That should drive deep!
Thanks for the videos. I really appreciate and enjoy them. What arrow scale do you recommend?
To get a real good result out of that test, you should shoot them unknown, because as soon as your brain knows which arrow is inside the bow, as an instinctive shooter, you subconsiuosly correct your shot according to that information. I always see that when using FluFlus, as soon as the FluFlu is used, the brain starts to correct... You can't escape that...But don't ask me how to do that during a test, because I don't know.......interesting as well is the almost non existing difference in the penetration debth of the different arrows....Maybe mass is not the only key ? Because of E=1/2*m*v² and the higher mass goes auromatically with a loss of speed.... Therefore the heaviest arrow does not always have the highest impact...The arrow with the most energy should have the highest impact and penetration debth...so how I see it, we need to check out how much speed a bow can give to an arrow with a certain weight and make a comparison of the calculated energy. The more Joules an arrow has, the more penetration it will perform and the better the efficiency of the respective bow/arrow combo...
Very informative, I really enjoy and learn a lot from your presentations. Thanks!
Thanks brother and I’m almost finished with part two! The penetration test and also using a longbow just to have an all around idea of what they do!
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 awesome as I stated before in a previous message, I have a mountain masa II long bow 50 pound. Looking forward to the info.
It’s true , I went to a 750g arrow out of my 50 lb recurve , worked pretty well, kept my shots to 25 yards so I didn’t notice a great deal of drop
Great instruction Jeff....My hunting setups for the past 15 years have typically been in the 12 to 13 gpp range with draw wts in the upper 40;s...the results have me quite satisfied....
Very well done and respectful of everyone.
Thank you sir!
Glad there was a clarification at the beginning ; 7 minute 8 second mark. . Arrows left indicate STIFF arrow. Arrows right indicate WEAK arrow.
Yes sir I figured that out lol thanks so much for watching brother!
Nice test.
Yes a penetration test would be interesting! i have been testing a few a arrows and i found that when i got over a certain arrow wieght my arrows stopped penetrating as far. i was shooting into a peice of thick rubber mat about 3/4 inch thick. all arrows were bare shaft tuned. a 530 grain arrow was penetrating better than a 640 grain arrow same length same diameter out of a 45# 62" recurve 29" arrows. shooting through plywood wood be a good test as foam and gell just give the same results with any arrows.
Hi Martin, I see your 530 grain arrow (11.78 grains per pound) penetrates better than your 640 grain arrow (14.22 grains per pound). I find that interesting but not suprising because numerous bows out there were not designed to work best with 13-15 grains per pound. For example, I have a Toelke Whister (high deflex grip with high reflex limbs), 52 pounds at 31", and Dan Toelke told me that bow works best at 10-11 grains per pound. It shoots 600 grains just fine (11.54 app) but 650 grain arrows I can feel the limbs working harder to launch the arrow, yet 600 they come off the bow like a rocket. At 530 grains you are almost at 12gg. I wonder what would happen if you tested a 560 grain arrow (12.44 app) and a 585 grain arrow (13 app).
You know what would be a better test? Animals. Animals aren’t rubber mats or plywood
Bigz you hit the nail on the head. Guys today try to justify light bows and light arrows over Dr Ashbys years of testing and research. Watch guys with compounds struggling to get a pass through.
@@dougw2399FACTS 💯. WOOD AINT ANIMALS. I SHOOT A 54 POUND LONGBOW WITH A 667 GRAIN ARROW. I GET NO DROP AT 25 YARDS.ITS 12.35 gpp and its a sledgehammer.
Thanks
jeff,
I agree with you on the quiet bow. You should do some videos testing the different ways and silencers to see what performs best. we all know a heavy arrow will quiet a bow. But beyond that. What silencers and combos. I was always interested in yarn wrapped strings in the limb groove area and if that helped at all. thanks for the great videos. God bless.
Do this with your longbow. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for the vid. I'd be interested to see a test on penetration difference with these different arrow weights.
You got it! Thanks 👍🏻
My testing was the same.. I felt there really was no difference in penetration from 10 to 15 grains per pound with the same lighter poundage bow . What I did find really helps penetration is heavy poundage bows and a heavy grain per inch arrow that only had 15 to 18 percent foc.. I try to stick to 10 and 12 grains per pound for less drop.. I still shoot through deer!!!!
As I'm a target shooter I've not yet got the grain of my tip. But what i did find out the other day was my arrows are too soft. I need stiffer shafts. But I'm waiting on the samick bow i ordered to come and the tools for brace hight. Because maybe that's a factor to. I'm only about near 2 months in archery so I've still got a tone to learn, take an 8 week course next month so hopefully I'll learn alot more than i know now, and what i know has been by watching you and jake kaminski. Which is odd because you both have different shooting styles as you're a hunter and he's a field archer, but put both them skills together I'm learning alot.
Good video, as always.
A nice addition would be if you set up a second camera very close to the target so we can always see the hits.
Thanks jeff. I run 650grain to 680grain out of 50lb recurves.
Love these informative videos , keep them coming . Which bearpaw glove do you use . I don't believe my glove is giving me the soft feel I need to feel my cheekbone
I I have found that on those ones that are hitting a little stiff a slight can't to your bow put some right by the one in the center
Great video. Could you do a video in regards to using two different arrow setups. Here is the reason I practice with 2 different arrows. Throughout the hunting season I elk hunt the Rockies, then I’m off to Bear hunt over bait, then I go to Midwest to WT hunt then I end my season hog/wt hunting in Tx. Different arrow setups are required for different types of hunting. Longer range/shorter range different hide toughness, etc. thanks for the videos and God bless.
Very good video! I shoot a 500 spine 2016 with my 60# Howatt longbow, but 2314, 2315, and 2317 arrows (2314 is a bit light), finger-shooting an old Jennings 60-80# compound bow set at just under 70#. I've actually shot 2312 with same bow at that weight just because it's amazing to see how flat they fly and the speed, but feels a bit risky. I've finger-shot 2419 with a 30-year old Oneida Screaming Eagle set at 80# - that draw-weight with a lever or compound bow would easily snap too lightly spined arrow, which I have done, so arrow matching, especially when finger-shooting a compound bow, or even a heavy longbow, especially if one weakens the (dynamic) spine much with a very heavy tip is important. A TH-cam search on "Archers Paradox up to the Limit" will actually bring up a video showing a very skilled longbow archer demonstrating exactly that, since very significant sideways bending can happen when finger-shooting which isn't much of an issue with a well-tuned trigger-shot bow (besides being hard on the bow) where minor porpoising could be a slight concern.
Cool video. I would like to see if the results would be the same out of a shooting machine.
LOVE my Carbon Trads from Victory: they fly like darts, are unbelievably durable, and they penetrate like crazy. Also, the bow is whisper quiet when I shoot the heavy weight. I’m more than willing to learn their trajectory in order to gain the benefits of a heavy shaft.
Hey Jeff, what is your opinion on a 66" Hoyt Satori with 45lb long limbs and a big Jim's Dark Timber 400 spine arrow shaft 9.8 gpi. I'm pulling about 51lbs on my fingers with a 29-1/2" draw. I'm thinking either a 550 grain or 614 grain finished arrow. Which one would you choose for hogs and deer?
Hi Jeff, is there a difference in carbon vs. Aluminum? my carbon set up @ 45lbs, 27 " is a GT Warrior cut at 28" 500, 50. gr. insert 190 gr. Tree shark and luminok around 482-484 and my Aluminum is Easton Autumn Orange 2016, with stock 20 gr. insert with the same Tree shark=544 gr., I am leaning towards the Eastons for the mass weight, is that a good set up, is there any difference in shootability/accuracy? which would you suggest? I ask these questions because alot of the "Old School" pro's from the 80's say that you shouldn't hunt any big game animal with less than a 550 gr. arrow, it get's confusing sometimes, I should add that my hunting distance is 0-12 yards with a max at 15. Thanks!
Grandpa used to always say 9-10 gpp….they all were shooting at least 50#…a lot shot 60#….with 50-65# trad bows I’ve found 9.3-9.7,9.8 gpp with 19-22,23% FOC is pin point accurate/perfect tune/balance/perfect arrow flight-u will typically be at 560-585 grains……NOW…these 40-45 trad bows- I have found 10-11 gpp and 23-25 FOC will give most perfect tune/balance-perfect arrow
Jeffro is always putting out some traditional wisdom
More accurate to say he's using sound principles of science and mathematics; which is far superior to traditional wisdom.
You know you are confident when 1) you film yourself, and
2) You shoot to the left and blame the arrow and others BELIEVE you. ;)
Thanks for an interesting Video, Im not a Hunter, but a 3D shooter, Im using a 45lbs Longbow, with gap shooting.
Due to my age, I just bought a lighter bow(40lbs) Longbow.
My gap ( after tuning the brace height, and the string nock) I have Gaps 30cm gap on 18 meters distance.with my 45lbs bow.
Point on is 25 meters.
When I tested the lighter bow, I got about 40 cm gap on same distance(18 meters). Yards and Meters are almost the same.
I do about 10-12pound arrow weight per bow strength, so that's fine, using 125gr arrow tip weight, groups are ok with the heavier bow as well.
But now I would like to have the same Gap with my lighter bow, my idea is to use lighter tips, and a fast flight string, maybe extend the arrow length, is that something that could help to decrease my Gaps with my lighter bow?
Been an Instinctive Archer since 9 years, and the last 6 months I started with the Gap shooting.
Difference? well Im shooting better, and more safer hits on all distances up to 30 meters then I did before, no target panicking anymore on lying down targets.
Im shooting a 50# at 28 reflex deflex. Whats your recommendation on that? Spine, weight, foc? Thanks
Been telling people for years a quiet bow is more effective for hunting than a fast bow. A good heavy arrow works wonders on making the bow quiet on shot. Good to hear someone else preaching this, most people dont take me too seriously.
Depends on range. With traditional bows, the arrow speed can really be the limiting factor if you try to push the limits of your effective range. Give the deer enough time to react and they'll make you miss.
@@ThirdLawPair I've found speed to be pointless. You can tune up a high end trad bow to shoot over 200fps if you want to drop around $1000 or more to achieve that. It's a lot if money for the simplicity of the equipment. That's all fine and dandy but over 80% , more like 90% of the shots most people take are within 18 yards. At least around here that is. Even compound guys are getting deer closer than 20 yards most of the time. I think most people expect to need to take a far shot but they hardly ever do.
@@DamonHowattHunteryou haven’t been to Arizona then.
@@progradepainting3755 what's you're average shot distance out there? Never been and likely never will.
@@DamonHowattHunter if you can stalk within 50-60 yards, you’re doing amazing. You can take some 30 yard shots when blind hunting, but it only works when conditions are fairly dry. 70-80-90 yard shots are not uncommon.
don't know if you have done any penetration tests for different weight and diameter arrows? But would like to see some if possible. As always Jeff your videos are top notch.
It’s coming next!!!!
I run a 650 grain 2219 @50 lbs, but I have the benefit of a 31” draw length. But boy do those hit hard 😂
Yes sir no doubt!
I shoot a 64 lb reflex deflex and I’m about 9 grains per pound my max is 25 yards I feel like it’s too light what will you recommend
That bow is beautiful
Yeah, that is the trade off. I shot heavy poundage light arrows forever. Now I am experimenting light poundage with heavy arrows. Knowing your range is more critical.
Did you chrony the 620 grain by chance? I am getting about 130fps with a 43 @ 26 striker stinger and 620 grain arrows.
Great information and I really appreciate your analysis!
Depends. 55# Hoyt take-down. Large black bear 6.5’ nose to tail, November fat, very heavy bodied, close shot 125gr Thunderhead , 800gr + total arrow weight. Bear stood. Arrow zipped through it. Thought, ‘oh oh I missed ‘- dropped on all fours - thought, ‘darn, it’s going to run’- took a couple steps, dropped dead. My first but not last complete pass through. Arrow angled into the ground reusable.
My first bear 22years earlier was 65# under 500gr total. Hugely different experience. My last bear again heavy arrow another pass through dropped it ton of bricks.
A person can only go by what they experience. For me, I keep two super heavy arrows in my quiver because there are lots of bears where I live & hunt deer.
keg test but..at 35 yards 40 yards.. after 30 yards they start dropping like a rock... 10 grains per pound after 30 yards best bet for me jeff. ive noticed with my trad bows after 30 yards everything changes
I have a Bear Kodiak Hunter Recurve bow at 50lbs which I use to Whitetail deer hunt. Which grain arrow would you choose for this bow?
It greatly depends on exactly how far you’re drawing it and what total point weight you’re planning on running but either a 400 or 500 spine
What spine would you suggest for a 65 pound recurve for a 30 inch draw for someone wanting to shoot a full length 32 inch shaft with about 300-350 grains of total front weight?
You’re gonna need a 250 might get by with a 300👍🏻
Thanks.I like to shoot 12 gpp,but it is hard for me to find a 400 spine (45#) traditional bow with the right weight.Changing the tip weight will change the spine right,so what do I do?
Yes, I’ve got 45# bows shooting 400’s with 300+ grains up front beautifully.
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 So is it safe to put 125,or 150 grain point on a 500 spine arrow?
looks like the 10 grain went in further could be where at on target... but i seen a keg test with a 45 pound bow... 10 grain per pound arrow 185 fps versed a 12 grain per pound arrow.. 170 fps .. the 10 grain per pound actually had more punch more keg then the heavier arrow i guess do to the speed....the other 12 grain lost speed to quickly at 30 yards started losing keg
What length are the first two arrows cut to that you shot at 435 grain and 480 grain?
Alternatively, what is the weight of the insert and field point.
Hi Jeff, I shoot a glove, and I was wondered which glove you shoot and the reason you chose it? I have tried four different gloves and at this point. I’m shooting a Black Widow glove. Let me know what you’re using. Thanks.
Much variance between them?
Jeff can you help i have looked everywhere on you tube but can not find anything , how do i fix fish tailing arrows , what have i done wrong , i bought a Bear super Grizzly a few weeks ago , and cut my arrows the same as usual as the draw weight is the same , it has all gone wrong
Well what I’ve experienced with most newer Bear bows is that the factory leather strike plate is too thick, first replace everything with calf hair then do a bare shaft tune, the problem has been in the rest area and they’re not super radius shelves so sometimes you have to do the toothpick trick under the shelf material for additional arrow clearance.
Apropos to nothing other than a love for archery, this is what I wish you would do:
With your knowledge and resources, I wish someone like you could watch the movie “War of the Arrows”. It’s a movie any archery lover would love to watch. And notice the special arrow that is used in this movie. It is especially heavy arrow, perhaps 10X or so the weight of a normal arrow. It has no sharp point because it’s not intended to stab the target. It was a military device, supposedly, intended to break bones and cause damage other than cutting into arteries and all that kind of stuff. I am told it was a very authentic movie, but I have no idea if that actual arrow was some thing that was really used. Just for grins and giggles it would be interesting to see if something like that would work.
Cool!
I shoot 590 grain arrows off 40-45# bows love em
Have you had a chance to chrony? I am getting 130fps 43# @ 26. 620 grains
Where can I go to look at the merchandise you Ofer for sale.
We’re setting up the online store now so it should be up very soon thanks!
Man youre a hell of a shot
Thank you and believe me I shoot a lot lol I actually practice most every night just working constantly on my process but I love it so much I really never get tired of working on it lol.
What is the distance to bare shaft the arrow
At least fifteen yards preferably twenty!
Hey Jeff, do you have a business inquiries email? Didn’t see one on your channel details. Wanted to reach out for a 1:1
Whats is the FOC from light to heavy?
The light arrows are around 12% and the heaviest one was well past 20%
…..awesome video btw
👊👍🏻
Now test the speed?
It seems to me that the heavier FOC arrows would have more penetration than the lighter arrows.
Snap shooting
Pause every shot just before you release and look down the arrow at where you are aiming on the target. Every time you go up in arrow weight you are aiming higher than you do with the lighter arrows. The last arrow was pointing to the top of the target. This test does NOT show the drop accurately with different arrow weights. Try aiming the same for each arrow weight and you will see a significant drop with the heavier arrows. Use a sight if you need to just to get it right. Also the arrows that hit left indicate they are stiffer, not weaker. Love your videos but this one is full of holes, no pun intended.
You are absolutely right! Det is what I thought right from the beginning of the test. Jeff unconsciously kompensate the elevation as any good archer or hunter would do.
(it doesn't mean that I don't like his videos and no matter what he is an excellent shooter anyway!
I think an instinctive archer is going to subconsciously compensate some. Obviously no bow will shoot flat to 30 yards. This probably is Point on for the second arrows. There is good bit of arc in them all. He corrected the stiff and weak on the screen. For me and my setup. I would guess about a 12 to 14 inch difference from light to heavy at that range. That being said I have bought into light poundage and heavy arrows after years of 62 pounds and light arrows. Knowing your distance gets way more important.
38# shooting 383gn.
All good but it sounded as the heavy arrows were slower, and that’s another important factor in hunting skittish animals.
Yes sir they are a little slower but the penetration is amazing as the new video coming up will show and that’s important to most and to others it’s not at all but as for me yes it’s very important for hunting big game 👍🏻
FYI, 479/43 = 11.1, not 12. The difference will start to be apparent beyond 30, if not already.
Those arrows are heavy.. my heaviest rifle rounds are usually lighter than your lightest arrows lol my heaviest rifle rounds are 300 grain JHP's in 45-70.. besides that my next heaviest bullets are 168 & 180 grain 308 projectiles in a more common caliber and they are fairly heavy for a rifle round.. never really realized arrows were that heavy.. 300 grains for a rifle is really heavy
Heaviest pistol rounds I have are 200 & 230 grain projectiles in 10mm & 45 ACP which is still a lot lighter than pretty much all those arrows.. the main difference is handgun & rifle cartridges are moving ALOT faster.. you can have small point of impact shifts between different bullet weights out of guns almost identical to the POI shifts that you had with those arrows..
But our bows are only shooting a fraction of the speed of your firearms. 🙂
600gn minimum for me
Great shooting, but that’s not a very accurate test, there is more drop off on that in reality. i’ve shot compound for 40 years and know the drop off of the heavier arrow also now shooting traditional I shoot a gap system so I’m shooting more accurate to gauge the drop off.
Your trad bow may not be shooting as hard as Jeffs
Speed doesn't help the arrow outrun the deer. It gives them less time to react. The deer are bound by the laws of physics just as much as your arrows are. There is a *big* difference and how much a deer can drop in a tenth of a second versus a quarter of a second.
Title should have been your opinion on heavy arrows.
I can’t hit anything with a bow, but an atlatl….another story.
If built right, you can’t even compete with mechanical advantage. But, they are slow as F. Happy medium always.
Nice video but I was expecting a penetration test as well. Perhaps in the future.
The problem with a penetration test is that the target Jeff is shooting at as well as ballistic gel, or any other material that is made for shooting arrows into, is made to stop arrows as fast as possible, and most target butts are made to shoot field points into. And again, the ones that are suitable to shoot broadheads into are still made to stop the arrow as fast as possible. The only way, in my opinion, to test the penetration of an arrow, is in a live animal. And those depths of penetration are going to vary depending on the animal.
@jimscott64 a hay bale is a perfect target as it even shows precisely the angle of penetration as well and ive found heavier arrows penetrate 2-3 inches deeper.
so whats the truth,,hehehe depends on yardage..ha